¶ Introduction and Catching Up
Man, so Peter, it's, it's a great to chat with you, man. you, have been doing some exciting stuff. We tried to, I tried to get you on, about six months ago and you rightly told me, Hey, why don't we wait until after the fall and I can see why now.
Yes. No, I'm happy to be here and to talk to you now.
¶ Peter’s Journey into Stunt Work and BASE Jumping
Yeah. So by trade, you're, You're a paragliding instructor, tandem pilot, stuntman, professional wingsuit pilot now. you've, you've got your hands, in a lot of different pies.
Yeah, I think, like, all the stuff I do is, for a reason. all this, the whole path just, went going, from the beginning. from the first time when I jumped from the roof of my house, I knew, I wanna be a stuntman, and then I was a stuntman, and I was like, Ah, I wanna be, like, a BASE jumper. Wingsuit pilot, and then it got way more into this innovation. So if I now think back, even like the school I choose, like made sense, it was like a technical school.
And then I started sports, like everything was for a reason somehow.
All leading up to where you are now.
Yes. Yeah.
does it feel to fly on the wing, on the foil?
Yeah, it's a good question. It's actually it's pretty crazy. Pretty exhausting as well and challenging. So it's like a super sensitive system. I don't know, if you guys saw it, if you look at the video, it's like more ah, it looks, easy, whatever, but it's really you Balance your body above the wing. So it's it's pushing you and, or actually pulling you forward and, up and you look balance over it.
And if there is like constant and constant air and no terminals and no turbulences, then it's pretty, pretty good. But if there are like ups and downs, then it's super challenging. But, the cool thing is just that you feel that if you feel the difference and you feel the influence. Like from the beginning and that's why I always continued with the project.
So this was an early concept. You, were you inspired by, like foiling? Do you do it on water? Did you see that? what, brought this idea to you, to begin with?
I tried it in the water, but for sure it had the inspiration, but it mainly actually started because of the Electrified Wingsuit project I had. Because we always had, we thought of how can we even improve this? How can we make like the engines, Better, nicer. And I had this idea of adding like two little wings on the side so that it's probably also just like pushing up and creating lift and not just, pushing, your front. And I thought before I do this.
Adaption on the wing, on the electrified, engine, I will just make a wing to see if it actually works. And then we made like this little wing, like actually a super tiny wing. if I now look at it, but we tested it and it was like from the beginning, Whoa, there is an influence and Whoa, that actually feels good. And then we had all this progression and ups and downs and yeah, it was, Big, progress.
¶ Flying with a Foil
So let's get back to, I want to hear more about the progression and the progress of it, but first let's talk a little bit about the feeling that you have with the foil. cause I can imagine, in normal wingsuit flight, you're Your, authority over your angle of attack and your, your direction that you're flying, up and down is, the angle of your flying, sorry, is, determined by your shoulders, your body, your head position, things like that.
I've got to assume that it's a lot of that changes when you introduce the foil.
Yeah, I think like the normal system how you fly a wingsuit actually stays the same, but then there's the additional, you call it, the additional thing that you have to also steer the foil itself and the pitch actually is the most important one and the pitch you have to set the foil in the pitch So it really depends, almost a millimeter, but I would say let's, it depends on the centimeter. Why is the centimeter too far up or too far down? It just doesn't make it fly nice.
But if you have it in the right spot, and then you just push your upper body like a little bit down, then you change the angle of the foil. And if you have this, it doesn't matter. Now, as I made quite a few jumps with it, I know when it feels right. Then you have this feeling of, yes, now I got it. And then you're like a little bit in front, when you say like the, force of the wing which pushes you up has to be like a little bit back of your center of gravity. Just a little bit.
Because then it's like giving you this push and this feeling of, yes, now I got it. But if this is like one centimeter too far in front, then you get like this pitch up feeling and you lose speed. And this is where you have a lot of pressure. So the pressure is more, but it's not like pulling you. It's just like pushing you. and that's the feeling you have to separate.
Like at the beginning, I was always searching for this push, but the push is actually just, if the angle is too high and the fall is too fine front. So it pushes you. But in the end, the glide ratio was bad. But you have this feeling of, yes, I got to push. Yes. But then I learned that feeling of the pulling and if I get this now, Then I know, okay, now let's go. And I know that the glide rush is good and I get the feedback of it.
Yeah. And then it's, a really nice feeling if you feel now it's supporting me and now I have it in the right way.
So the sweet spot, speak, it was really evident once you nailed it, it was like, okay, that's it.
Yeah. Totally
Okay. So like I'm just imagining now that you're going through this testing process of finding where that sweet spot is, that you have like this, somehow it's connected to your body. I think I saw some pictures of you like putting it on or something, but were you able to move it forward and aft like by some tightening system or how did that work?
Yeah. There's so many variables. I have a chest mount, so it's, it started actually with the originally one from the electrified wingsuit, but then we realized it has to be way more stable, so we have a full carbon fiber chest mount, first 3D printed and carbon fiber, so we like 3D scanned my upper body and made a mount like this. Perfectly fitting on my upper body. And then you tighten it like a lot. So it's actually super hard to, breathe all these things, important things.
and then I have connected it with a mast. So I have this one mast and the wing that connects to my body. So it's like just weird. I'm just one with it. So my upper body is one with the wing and that's also how you steer it.
Now one of the first things that like, I work in a newsroom. the first time I heard about it, one of my colleagues who worked at the sport desk said, Hey, have you just check, come check this out. Have you seen this? And and it was a picture of you and I was like, Oh yeah, he's probably done some wingsuits. And then she showed me the video. So I was like, God damn. Wow.
¶ Exits and Initial Flight Experiences With the Foil
And the first thing I thought about was like, The exit. That must have been, yeah, that's a sensitive moment. tell us a little bit about exiting with the foil, and how'd that feel, and your thoughts behind all that.
Yeah. I think the exit is, the scariest part, actually not for me anymore. I have to say, for sure it's still, not, easy by far. But I know like that I was expecting that people would say Whoa, yeah, I want to jump this as well. But there was like almost none, like one to two people said, yeah, I would love to try. And the other ones were like, do you have a little one which we can try? it looks scary staying up there, on top of the mountain with that big wing.
And I think for me, it's okay because I had all this, Progress and starting from the little ones, getting bigger and bigger. And we had the first foils that were like way closer to the body.
Mm
and it was way easier to fly, I have to say, but also the performance was way less. And for the exit, it was almost a normal exit. it was closer, it was smaller. I was jumping in Italy and it was like, even in full terminals, I was like exiting, super good, numbers, flying next to the wall, almost proximity flying, because it was feeling just like normal flying. but then we realized, yeah, but we want to have more performance. And so it got further away.
And due to that, also the wing could get bigger because we have, I have then more space for my legs because now the wing is like underneath my knees. So I can bend my knees. I do this one foot exit, right? So I have one foot in front and then I have the wing underneath my knee and I have certain movability where I can go down. Then I push my upper body down to the point where it hits my lower legs. And then I stay with this position and then I just let my body fall. And then I push.
And mainly I push from my lower legs, like not fully from the knees. It's more like push from the,
The calves.
from the calves itself. Yes.
Oh, okay. Interesting. So you can't get sorry, go ahead.
you can get like this normal full aggressive exit, which I really love, like staying there, like the race exit and just Push your whole body, bring it down and then push away, like even lower than the horizon. This is what's not, this is not working with that one. So you have to check, especially on the big wing, you have to check to the wingtips so that you don't hit anything there then.
So on the first exit, I was always looking to one side where it's which the one which is closer to the rock or to the grass or whatever. And so I always had to exit like sideways to check, On my movement, if it's even going down lower than where I'm standing. So I had to learn exiting in a way that it's, good and safe.
Did you have any bad exits?
Yes. No, I had, this one or two bad exits where I was like a little bit too head high. And somehow even the wingset didn't inflate perfectly because I think it was like hidden under the, behind the wing and the wing was stalling. So like the wing was stalling and just going down straight and I was above like, wow, I had this feeling of going over the wing and Then I realized that just, I have to bring my body down before the exit to be able to jump lower and not like head high.
So head highs, not the really nice feeling. And you also have to arch then to get, get it back in the right angle and then fly. So I had this one, one jump in France actually, where after this effort, Whoa, I have to change something on the exit because this doesn't feel really good. And then I trained for it, and then it worked way better. And also, the wing even changed more, because it was, like, stalling for 10 12 seconds after the exit, because it was just, not attached perfectly.
Okay. most wingsuits have An angle in which like an acceptable angle of which you push right where you have a good start or an acceptable start and then anything outside of that, you have a bad exit. I'm, assuming with the foil that exit window is, a little, or angle is a little bit smaller. Is that accurate? Yeah,
I also fought that. And flying wise, the angle is way smaller. but exit wise, and also, for the flare and for the pull, I realized it actually doesn't matter too much. for sure you want to exit in the right angle, but the only thing is you then just don't start flying so nice and so early, but it also doesn't affect you directly that like this stalling of the wing, just switching your sides or is turning you or something like this. So because you push the energy is still going forward.
and you don't have a lot of speed. So the wing is stalling, but still you don't reach the speed where it's important. And then you need to push down with your upper body to get it into the right angle after a certain amount of time after the exit. You know what I mean? yeah, was a little bit complicated, but let's say the last, the first three, four seconds. I expect that it's, more important like after three or four seconds to then bring the wing in the right angle
Okay.
do it from the beginning. But for sure the progression, of the, wing and the, next development will be in a way that the exits have to be better. They have to be nicer. I want to be able to do like almost like a normal exit.
Okay. doing this, do you feel like flying with the foil is primarily like a stunt or is this something that you can conceivably see as evolving into regular practice? taking a foil into the mountains with you, for example.
I would say for me personally it will be Not like regular flying, but it will be like special jumps a year
Okay.
I say I really would like to jump that mountain and fly to that village because I know now I know what's possible. And I already have this list of 20 exit points where I thought of, yes, here I should really, go for it and try it with the fall, but I still love the normal wingsuit and The many possibilities you have in wingsuit flying and the freedom, with the foil, it's, then it's like a different sport.
It's, let's say, I think in the future there will be like one discipline in wingsuit flying, which is like this experimental stuff. Like the others fly with the carpet, I fly with the foils. That's just like this interest, these things where you, where we not know, what's going to be like regular sport in the future.
I think that, I already, we are continue developing and we already have this different foils in progression where I know I will have three foils in the future where I think, okay, now I do this or I do that or I do this. But maybe we talk about it later. Anyway.
we talked a little bit about pitch angle. now what about, The yaw, and, roll. I can imagine that the roll is pretty sensitive. or yeah, I actually have no idea. Tell me.
Yeah. there was like a, even the prototypes, which were like closer to my body again. it really doesn't matter a lot. So I was doing corkscrews. I was going for full dive and full flare, like so many, maneuvers. And, I even did it was just in the tunnel, but I did like back flying. So I was able to do many things. But now with, that one, I realized that it's so much more sensitive. That even like, I have to do like super sensitive, small turns to not stall that wing.
So I learned to fly with the frets. I had like frets on the wing to always like immediately see when it's stalling. And then a second after you feel it anyway, but I learned it like this, just to know which turns are allowed with that wing and as we had so many prototypes and settings, I really then knew which wing with which wing I can do what.
And the final wing I used for the best glide, it, it was the one for the best glide, but it was not the one for nice, sweet turns and maneuvers like this. So you have to be pretty careful and just make like super tiny, small turns.
So now the progression, you talked about the tunnel a little bit. I'm assuming, man, you did a really good job of keeping this a secret. you, that was the first flight with, in the tunnel or was it, yeah. Tell me like what the first experiments with it was like.
Yeah, the first one was actually in the tunnel. It was like the first, two prototypes actually were in the tunnel. but we did a little mistake there because we then started developing the wing for the tunnel. So in a way that it works nice in the tunnel, and then we flew outside and we just didn't get like nice glide out of it. And then on one point we totally swapped this development to like really develop it from the helicopter and later even from the base jumping.
But yeah, the first, first was in the tunnel, where you have the, just the direct. Reference, like to the wall, where you can really see, okay, when I shift my upper body up, then it pushes you up to the wall. So you have to push down the upper body. So I learned to fly that wing in the tunnel. So yeah. Actually, even the same, like with the last wings now, they also fly the same way.
So the best would be to have a reference next to you and then to see okay, when I push my upper body down, then I'll make a lower angle of attack of the wing. And this pushes me down. And if you normally want to fly like slower. Then you put your upper body upright, especially in the tunnel, like head back. But if you do this with the wing, then you just get pushed perfectly up. So you make a full flare. And because of this, yeah, I had to really find out different things in the tunnel first.
And then on the skydive, it was really surprising, especially like the pull. So if you normally pull, you put your shoulders back, right? to make a nice, reach the palatute and then pull. And when I do this with the wing, then I was like, I had a full flare in that moment. So the wing is just like pushing you up so much on that point where you actually want to pull. And that was really weird at the beginning. And now with the new wing. Doesn't work because it's stalling.
So when, because then the angle is too high and it's stalling and it's actually not too bad for the pull because you just then get dropped down and you can nicely pull
Okay. So if I understand correctly, then the first earlier iterations of the wing, you were doing a normal pull sequence and it just gave you like a really big flare. So it worked out. Okay. But then as you developed a, into more high performance foil, you had to like really control your pull sequence. Your pitch angle and the position of your shoulders so that you weren't over flaring. Is that right?
with the first ones. Yeah. With the last ones, you couldn't flare.
Okay,
just like super slightly, but it was really no wing for flaring. I already know what I would change on that wing, or actually we already are changing it that you can also flare and do like other different things, but this was just like a best client wing. And on one point we had to make the project and not just continue developing for another year. So we said, okay, now let's do it. It's acceptable. The glide is good. Now we go for it.
so you have all the tools then it's this is like your performance wing and then there's going to be like a free ride wing and You have all the different, in between.
Yeah, and I think I was like, it would be nice to go into a direction where it's like really nice, where maybe people can try it or even make their own ones. because I, never started this to make like a business out of it. So I'm not this kind of guy. And also, yeah, I really don't want to make. Wings and sell them and then people like go in with it.
It's yeah, it's just like I don't want that But i'm I know that it can be an inspiration and there will be people Maybe not from that wing, but maybe from the future stuff where they think yeah, why not? Let's make something like this, but I don't know. Let's see
Yeah, let's see. I'm sure, it's inspired a lot of people, both in the sport and outside of it. I can only imagine that people are going to want to try it. you said you're not a guy who wants to make this a business. So what kind of guy are you? An innovator? you, like the innovation or you like the, sensations it brings? what was really your motivating factor here?
I really like the innovation like from the beginning. I mean I was You Developing track suits at the beginning together with pressurized, then helping Phoenix fly, making the electrified wingsuit, no making the wingsuit foil. So it's like the innovation, the innovating and also like improving human flight. So I want to fly longer.
I want to, like, when I look out of my window here, then I see like all this mountains and I didn't jump yet, but I know like now I can jump this mountain and not just land like On the bottom of the cliff in this like little tiny landing area I can just fly out all the way and land on the biggest fields you can imagine And this is why I actually made it and that's where the ideas come from So looking at mountains and thinking of experiences you can do when the wingsuit would fly better.
So we established that, you're also a paragliding instructor and pilot. is that something that you still do on a regular basis?
Not too much anymore, actually. So tandem flying I'm doing with my kids, I'm doing with my parents, family, some friends. really fun. And, the teaching the paragliding, yeah, I didn't do any this year. I was just too busy doing other things. And yeah, I really love it. I love to teach somebody like in this fast way where, which paragliding is like after one week they can fly for themselves, but on the other side, it's, so dependent on the weather and so many things.
And I always if I have one week, of course, like the three, four weeks before I also already, I just think of that week, I hope the weather is good. I hope this, that,
yeah,
so there's a lot of things going on. And now I'm like actually pretty busy with other stuff, with this innovations with rebel, with BMW, like this, yeah, many things going on.
¶ Partnerships and Projects with BMW and Red Bull
You've been, really successful in the partnerships you've developed, around flying. us a little bit about how you provided value for these companies and how you created these relationships and because I'm sure there's a lot of people that are listening going Oh, man, I want to work with, someone like BMW or Red Bull. And, how has this experience, shaped up for you and, do you have any advice for people listening?
Oh, there's always like a big luck factor, I think in it as well. Maybe I talk about projects for me because BMW. was one thing where I was really lucky to get the right contact somehow. So I had this idea, even like years before we did the BMW project. we had that idea and we even presented it to some companies and, they were like, Oh, yeah, but first you have to develop it. And then you have to show that it works. And then maybe we can think about it.
And me and Andy, and he's actually my, is my mentor is my. My partner, like business partner, and he's also, he made the wing and he also helped me with the Electrified Wings project. And yeah, we thought of maybe we should just do it at our own. And we were thinking of like, how much would that cost for us? And, maybe we, yeah, somehow I had that stage of let's just do it.
Even if I never had the money for it, but I thought of selling this, selling that just to be able to make the engine at myself. But then Andy was like, ah, Peter, I don't know. And then I presented this idea actually to a film production and the film production tried their ways and tried it with different companies and also nothing happened. And then one year later I met this guy from the film production, Max, and I, he said, yeah, Peter, let's do something together.
And I said, yeah, would be nice to be, you have my concepts and he said, I will try it now again. And the next day he told, me that he contacted, how you call the agency. Like where they do like advertisements and things like this. and this agency said, it's super interesting because we had BMW here and they were searching, for marketing strikes towards electric mobility. And they were like, Oh, that's perfect. And then BMW contacted me directly and said, yeah, can you come tomorrow to Munich?
And I was there and then comes actually the difficult part. So this was luck, right? I came there and then it took me one year. To make meetings, to really gave them the trust that they should work with me. because they know like base jumpers, wingsuit pilots, and they think of, yeah, how risky could that be for our brand? But, like somehow I managed it, that they had the trust in me and that they said, yeah, let's, go for it.
And after one year we made the contract and then it started another two years of Development, where there was also one key point. So I had to do the whole development. So it's maybe super important to know that you somehow talk to a brand, but you tell them you don't have to have the responsibility, like I can actually do it. So even. I got the money, but I had to pay all the suppliers as an example. because then if something happens, it's not their fault for sure.
We had like contracts, like special contracts. So actually everything would have been my fault, my own fault. If something happens. And I think that was actually important part, for them to, start that, the journey and the project. So this was BMW. Yeah,
So you had a lot of luck just, in terms of networking and then, in the actual process of convincing them or, selling them on the idea, you put a lot of your own legwork and, finances into, development. And then, I would imagine too, that there was a lot of these conversations that, us as, makes you pilots have it's, Probably dispelling this idea that we're just some crazy adrenaline junkie, are those some conversations that you've had regularly with, representatives from BMW? Ah,
They knew like my, art of working then, because I was, I'm also like a sports scientist, and I always describe things like from the scientist side. So even like when, I make like a speech about base jumping, people sometimes go home because They're bored in the end because I'm not talking about like super risky and yeah, I just survived this jump because of this and that like I'm totally opposite.
So I say, yeah, you have the numbers of the exit you get from the laser, you lay over your line of flight, and then you know if it works or not, like this kind of stuff. and when you do this to a brand like BMW, then for sure it works way better.
interesting. Yeah. I, there's definitely some people in our sphere who are, carnage entrepreneurs, meaning that they profit off of, their accidents and, the carnage videos that ensue. And so you're really, I think, in a Position where you're taking the almost the exact opposite from a scientific perspective and from a responsible athlete perspective.
I think so but also to be honest, I know that the other way would sell Way better like for the, main audience, not for brands and managers, but if you look at let's say like my best videos, it's, all like this, like people commenting, did he die? What happened to him? Like these are the videos which gets like million of views and things like this and not where you describe how safe wingsuit flying can be if you do this and that, but that's the opposite thing.
You have to know who are you talking with? Is it the brand and the manager where you want to sell something or is it the audience where you get some views for your Instagram? Honestly,
¶ Social Media and Public Perception
online presence, you've got a massive following now. is that something that's been a challenge for you or is it something that came, it came out organically? Do you have, you had some sort of strategy to develop it or, cause I, I think that, getting messages and all of the likes and all that kind of stuff that comes along with it could, be overwhelming. So how's that been for you? Yeah,
I have, not too much clue about it. all the followers, I tried like different strategies and I even had people like helping me and they were like, Peter, you have to do this, And then I tried it like for a few weeks. It was like a lot of work and actually didn't change a lot. in my opinion, and then you just have to write algorithm. don't ask me about this because I have no idea about it. But then somehow I put on a video where I think of, yeah, let's just put something out.
and then this goes for millions of views. and I thought of understanding it, but then there's another video where I thought of ah, I don't know, this will not be good. But then also this was really good. And I think I just got the follow up because of that. It's not because I'm so active and like post every day. I, share my life like a few people do and they do it nice and they do it really good. So honestly, I'm a bit lucky in that.
I have to say, and I'm not super passionate about, like posting and sharing my life. it could be better. And even for the brands, I know it could be better. But anyway, that's how it is. So I still like the real life more. I like to, do things and, but also I want to show it for sure, somehow. And also for the brands, it's important to show something. It's always to find for me to find the best compromise, in doing social media and also just living life in real.
Yeah. it's going to be massively disrupting and distracting to have, I've seen, I know some of our mutual friends who are always on their phone, always. filming as we're making an approach and, it gets a little bit ridiculous, that's fine if that's their, if that's their natural voice and if that's them naturally, great. Otherwise when it's forced, man, it's just, really, it's just can make you cringe a little bit.
you know what my opinion about this is. If you have a message which really inspires people and which really helps people, then I think it's a really cool job. you can change something and people listen to you and they think of, Oh yes. they, you giving them a good feeling or whatever. And I know that there are people out there. just sometimes what I'm talking or I'm posting, I think of, but what does it really give, to the people?
And then you have this, stupid video like where just there's somebody on an exit walking to the exit jumping off and then he's off and Getting millions of views and people the only comments which are underneath is did he die? Did he die? So it's just get so much tension because the people think you died and this is something like where I think of I don't know If I want that too much
Yeah, not all attention is, is equal, right? I guess is what you're trying to say.
Yes,
and the kind of attention you're looking for is to, leave a positive, resonance with your audience.
yes
Yeah, I like that. There's also this element of social media, too, where, you know, like, where you can, Make somebody strive for attention, meaning push the boundaries farther or, it, and also creates an element of normalcy because, a lot of the things that we see on social media are just perfect exits, perfect flights.
And there's not a whole lot of, substance in, in relation to, the, either the progression or Close calls that people have, or, even really indicating about how much danger is, just talking to you now, I'm assuming that's something that's not really playing in your mind, but is that something that you notice within our community and in, mountain adventure sports in general,
for sure, like for those people who really live from the sport and have the sponsors, they will not post things which went wrong. I assume. but then like for our community, we anyway have this groups and Facebook where like people share like moments which went wrong, which is really good and really important in my opinion.
I would say too, is as people, professionals in our sport, they become less and less active in, let's say commenting on the base fatality list or, the group that you just mentioned. is there a draw to, Not show this because it shows that, maybe it could be used against you and one, trying to create relationships with brands.
it could be actually, I didn't thought too much about it. Honestly. it's also because like they're way less shitty things happening. which is good, but, I think I would have, I would need to post things like from the past and from the first years because there were so many things, honestly, yeah, I don't know. It's,
¶ Early Adventures and Close Calls
Let's dive into the past a little bit. so you said earlier that, you jumped off of your parents roof and that was like your beginnings of, the thrill of free fall. how did the, what drew you into base jumping? Where did you find out about it and what were the first steps that you took?
The first steps, good question. if I ask my parents, they always tell me, yeah, you always started to jump from the table, then you jumped from the balcony, then from the rooftop. So I had a big family, I have four sisters. So we have many beds in the house, so I put all the mattresses out in the garden, and made like a big hill, and then jumping into it. So this came like super popular, like even with friends, like this was balcony jumping, like we always did it.
And then I knew I would, I wanted to get the stuntman and within stuntman, my main discipline was like high falls. I really like to jump from things into card boxes, air cushions, and so on. And also this, like I jumped higher, like to, I can't remember, 27, 28 meters, something like this.
28 meters. Goddamn. Okay.
And then it was like, yeah, but how can I even go bigger? I have to, go skydiving and yeah. So I had a stunt team going on where like I made like many dreams come true. Like within the stunt business, it's super hard in Austria, but we just made it for ourselves mainly and made some shows. But then I started skydiving and like from the first jumps I realized yes, that's the way but actually the base jumping is the way and I didn't have too much money. So I was really not into skydiving too much.
I have to say, like with, Andy, where I did my, base course, like he wanted to have 150 jumps and I did 151. So it was totally minimalistic. and then I started base jumping and I was, it was so good. I liked it so much. And I was like starting to track and then the tracking was getting better and better. And then I was so addicted to tracking that I did five years just tracking and every wingsuit jump I did in between was like, what's that? That's not real flying.
That's like you fly with this additional surfaces. And I really didn't like it, but that's how like my progress was. So five years just full tracking and then starting to wingsuit and I forced myself to wingsuit. Just because of the amount of possibilities. especially in Austria, you have like maybe five tracking jumps, something like this, or actually three, three nice ones, and then two shitty ones
so
have a lot,
when you were really into tracking, what was it that like really inspired you to track? And what was it that you were like really excited about tracking
that it actually works. if you look at this tracking videos now as a, wingsuit, especially like, this old ones, it's What the fuck like actually really good glide and like full proxy tracking and without any range of Changing the angle too much or no flaring and it's crazy if you now look back people still do tracking and it's awesome.
But if I look back at my old videos, it's it's crazy how It's really difficult actually to get like a nice track out of it So everything has to be perfect and I like to You Yeah, that you have the right position for sure also the right suit and then you have this feeling of yeah Now I'm the right spot now. Don't move anything Don't move your head just stay like this and get the best out of it and then and track out and then the new Possibilities you get when you track better.
I remember these trips back in 2000 11, 12 in Norway, like where we jumped this tracking exit where people said, yeah, there's one guy tracked it before. And I remember when
maybe?
yeah, no, actually more like more North, like Sunda, Sora, and like in this valleys.
Oh yeah. Okay.
that was like crazy time. Like we were on the exit for one hour or even more to really think of, will, it be possible to jump that? But we knew that in this case, Andre Carr jumped it and we had him on the phone and he said, yes, that's the right spot. And we were like, really? Are you sure? And then, and after one hour, we just jumped it and it was like so good. And it was such an amazing flight. Our tracking was really good.
So the challenge is really what sounds was to draw you to it.
Yes. I would say so.
And I'm imagining now you, you hit up Andy, Andrew, sorry. And how do you say his name again? Sorry.
Andy, put Lipnick.
Okay. And so this was before the ideas of, or we had read readily available laser range finders. So you guys throwing rocks, looking at maps, that kind of thing.
Yes, that's it. So it was like this. I mean in tracking more like six, seven, eight seconds Necessarily, but in wingsuit it was sometimes like four seconds I don't know, five seconds was good, like these things. And I really, I never liked that, kind of stuff because it just depends on how, good you throw it. And in my case, before I was thinking of developing a laser, I was, I really wanted to develop a thing, where you throw a stone.
With a specific force, just to always have the same, from, and the same angle of flying. I never did, but I was always that guy of I want to invent something to make it nicer and safer and more value evaluable. I don't know this word.
You more consistent measurement basically. Yeah, no, I hear you. I remember someone with a exits I opened. it was like, okay, short toss, five seconds. Really big toss, eight seconds. Okay. It's good to go. and it's what's that? It's like, how hard did you throw it? how much drag is the actual and the weight of the rock actually, creating. And I feel so lucky now to have all of these awesome tools.
Yeah.
so back to the progression of, for you in, jumping. so you were like, super into tracking and can you talk a little bit about Andy, because, you've mentioned him a couple of times and he's your mentor and, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that relationship and who he is?
Sure. and he's, it's an Austrian guy. he started base jumping. 2003 And these stories were like he was trying to find the exit at monte prento for five hours so if you now think of like People go there in the taxi and then they hike 10 to 15 minutes and they on the exit and they hiked five hours He was there with his girlfriend with two friends and on the exit. They were all crying and it was So intense like these stories. It's so crazy and then he jumped and it was like Just so good for him.
And yeah, I started jumping in 2008, 2009 base jumping.
Okay.
with Andy, with, with pressurized. So Andy is the guy who's doing pressurized, doing the track suits and also the first jump courses. yeah, and I started with him and after, let's say two years, I was already so much into tracking that I, I was test jumping for him. And then we even had the company together for a bit, but actually just one year because we realized it, it doesn't, fit for two people. yeah. And then I was helping him developing the suits.
The time where we had the company, we were selling the suits, we made videos, advertisements, all these things. Yeah. But anyway, like Andy is like a full innovator, so he has this passion of flying and he has that thing of, I want to innovate. I want to make things better. And this is actually the same, what I have.
So if we have an idea together and if we talk about it, then we are both, both in the same way, like so, happy and so like full into it, that we can talk for hours, for days actually about it. And yeah, that's, the thing why we always go for it. Get back together on trips and on projects and I really like his passion.
It's really cool And he was also he made his wingsuits in between but mainly he was like tracking Then a few wingsuits in between and now he really started to wingsuit again He's using like old my old wingsuits actually and he really starts. liking it now I was able to bring him up to Jungfrau as well when I did the Wingsuit 4 project. and, he liked it so much. Because it was like, I was so happy to share that moment with him. Because he helped me with the whole project.
he made that wing, he made all that things. And then I was able to stand up there with him and watch him jumping. It was so good.
That's awesome. That's really cool to be able to give that back like that. Sounds like you guys had a really good working and mentor mentee relationship. you started really young, right? You were like 20 when you started? Man, I was not ready for bass jumping at that age. That's, that's impressive that you were, you had the maturity at that young age.
mean, if I now think back of that years, Oh, I don't know. So I personally also think you have to be older and you have to have more experience, to start that because I had so much luck for sure. Also, I had some skills, but I also had a lot of work, a lot of luck in the first two, three years of base jumping.
Did you have some, do you have any close call moments, that you want to share with us? I think it's also, it makes for some really good stories, but I think this is also really helps for general learning, learning from other people's mistakes.
sure. Now I had quite a bit, I have to say. mainly. Ariel related, like Ariel is like
Off the exit.
off the exit, like, tracking, like in Italy, some exit points where you say, Okay. You can do one flip, but then you have to start flying like immediately. And then I like over rotated and did two flips. And then it was like super tight, like flying super close over the ledge and then just pull the few meters in front and then had like fully on heading, perfect opening.
this was one, one thing, but the worst was actually at, like in the Dolomites, like this was like my actually favorite, trekking jumps, like actually afterwards, not on that one. I'm explaining now because we just knew, we heard some stories of Ted Rod, like jumping it and maybe like a few people, but like a handful. And we were searching for the exit and then somehow we found it. And then we were like, okay, but then this exit, we should not fuck up anything.
So it's so really important that you fully push and then don't fuck it up. and I never liked running exits. And in this case, actually never really did them just for some areas, but always when I want to go for a nice performance track, I always had one foot in front, same like wing sitting now. And I had my chumps. And in this case, it was like, Yeah, but you have to do running here. And I was like, nah, but then I also thought, yeah, maybe I really have to do running here.
So somehow I did a running exit and I was like, not convenient with it. I was not feeling perfectly. And then, yeah, and then I was eating like, yeah, I was there and he was following me and I did like a running and then I over rotated and probably I could have. Bring it out maybe. but I had this feeling of now I have to do a front flip because I was flipping so often and front flips. I was actually not bad in it. I was pretty good in it. Let's say like this.
So I over rotated and I was doing a front flip and then during the sit, when I was like sit flying and then going into the track, I already saw like the rock coming closer, closer, And it was like, so really tight. But anyway, I then out tracked like 55 seconds, I think after this one. And I landed, and Andy was like, he actually didn't see that I made it. he was fully, he was jumping, he just saw that I left. And, what should he do with, the tracking?
So I just continued flying out, and landed, and was pretty surprised that I was coming as well. And, everyone was like, Peter, you have to be super happy because now you survived something like this. And I was feeling so bad. So I don't know if, mostly, I think mainly people who had a close call like this, they know how bad the feeling is. And I was actually afterwards getting sick for 2 3 weeks, because just my belly, and I think it's just hard to describe, but You're not feeling happy.
You're like so angry about yourself that this happened to you. Yeah, it was really bad. But after these two, three weeks, I really continued flying and then I was just concentrating more on the things like, I know I can do it and I really didn't like that running exit. So, I actually never really did it afterwards as well. Maybe some, but then just on cliffs where it really doesn't matter.
it's probably not the smartest way to, it's just stupid to do running exit on a tight exit, without really practicing it before.
Yeah, I'm, I think the lesson there is if you're going to use something, a technique that you need to survive, you should practice it someplace where it's a little bit more mellow and get used to it.
Yes, sure.
Man, that whole feeling in your stomach. I, I'm totally sympathize with that. Like I had, that jump Chateau Descartes. It's like these, it's one in France, but it's like these
Ah, yeah, no, no
slalom it. And. Yeah. And I was, I was in a earlier suit that didn't have a lot of performance and I was seeing all these guys in Tony suits flying over that first ledge and flying over the grassy knoll. And I was like, hi, I'm going to fly that way. And I held a really high angle and stalled right over the top of the, first, ridge and, just basically lost all flight emergency pitched. And it was like something like 30 feet off the ground.
And thankfully I had an on heading opening and, I had another thousand meters of parachute flight, just like that feeling was so horrible. And I, just like you said, in my belly, just,
Yeah.
thinking about it now, it's just like such disappointment, disgust in myself.
Yeah. Nah, it's crazy. But then yeah, somehow I got smarter. I really trained for, things which I want to practice. So it, was pretty good. And then I think I just had one really wingsuit one where, It's actually an incident happening pretty often where you have like your line of flying, you normally fly. And I did already two jumps there. It's not much, but I did two jumps and I crossed on a certain point.
And then I had this next jump where I had super shitty conditions and I was really focusing myself to fly over the same spot. And I think it was like, I can't remember five years ago or something like this. And I flew there and then I really saw no, it's not going to work. And then you start a little bit like flaring. And then you have to decide, okay, now I have to decide if not, it's not going to work.
And then to really like react on that, because you always know it, you go through it, like mentally, what should I do if this and that happens? But if you then really do it, it's a different story. but I, did it then. And I did the turn, And then even like with a turn and with a flare, I like, it was tough to made it like over that ridge, but I'm like, so happy that I, made the decision and not just yeah, which is really bad, but quite a few people like die in a way like this.
They realize it's not gonna work, but then they try to still, flair, try, the best, they still think they are able to do it. but, they should have done a smart decision earlier before.
Yeah, probably like you. I've lost a few friends on very similar situations where they're trying to glide into a line or a position or a feature and they just don't have what it takes to get there and they're just locked in mentally. as someone who studies sports science, do you have any real perspectives on that as far as like decision makings that happen in flight?
it's probably 10 years ago, they made like a study that you actually are not able to make smart decisions in the sky when you fly. But I always disagreed with that. Because I don't think that's true. but they made measurements of, I don't say like any names, like who did it, but they did like measurements and wingship pallets, really checking their, the brain capability or. Activeness, in flying. And they found out that actually you should not be able to make any smart decision in the air.
but I don't totally disagree. I think if you like have, if you do something new and you're just like, So over focused that, that you cannot make actually smart decisions because you're just concentrating on this one thing and you just go for that one thing, then it's hard. But if you.
If you feel comfortable and you go through the jump like before you do it and all the plan B's and plan C's and plan D's, then I think for sure we are able to do smart decisions, but we have to do it and not just think about it before. And this is something you really have to learn. I think, you have to, learn flying and then while flying make decisions somehow it sounds, stupid, but
No, I think you're onto something there. And I think it's really dependent on the individual, right? Because you can have a lot of stress at the exit point and focus tremendously on a particular line or, way you're going to fly. And you get this sort of tunnel vision and your awareness, whether it's, your cognitive abilities, your vision.
Anything, sensory related, becomes highly diminished, but if you're, relaxed, focused, open to, lots of sensory input, then you can make better decisions, but that's, that varies, right? sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not so good.
¶ Visualization Techniques
Are you one of those guys that visualizes at the exit point?
yeah, for sure.
Can you walk us through what your, your normal thought process and visualization process is like before a jump?
Actually, again, I have to step back. At the beginning I was actually, I was pretty crazy. when I did some routines on the exit and the jump worked, then I always had the same routine again. Super stupid things I really have to love if I think about myself back in the days. One example, my, my shoelaces. So I always had to put the shoelaces in a specific spot, like just rotating inwards. Something like this. So I had to set myself these routines to feel comfortable on the exit.
When I'm on the exit, I was thinking, fuck the shoelace. I think it's on the other side. I was not feeling comfortable. And. But then somehow after some years where I got the trust in the sport, I got the trust in myself in the suits and everything. Then I just forced myself to not do things like this because I said, why should that fucking shoelace matter anything? So I was focusing on things which matters, how tight you pull your chest strap or whatever things like this.
that's still important. but not like things like this, but I've probably people needed. at the beginning somehow to get like the stability or to get like, yeah, just to get over it. but now what, I really like to do is just to go from a jump and, depending what is the focus on the jump, is it like the exit? Is it the line? then I'm in the exit itself.
I almost go through Every time, I was, I'm searching for a nice spot in the exit, I'm a bit picky with that, but when I find a nice spot where I put my leg on, then I just imagine myself, I kind of use like a technique where I look at myself from the outside, like, a camera from the outside, and I imagine myself like, Then getting down at the right angle, pushing off, flying the line. And I use this sometimes a couple of times till I feel comfortable with it.
And for sure, like sometimes if you fly a line where there's a video online, you go through the video a few times. but then also not just a video. It's like really to imagine myself flying that line. And what to do in which, which cases. Yeah. I think that's, actually my technique just to go through. Imagine yourself, doing things and then focus on specific things. And you can actually really train. specific things with that.
So even an exit, in my opinion, if you are really good in that, then you look at yourself from the outside and it's yeah, I see myself doing different things, like going to go into the front, upper body down, pushing me away. When you tension the legs, where, which angle are you after the exit, all these things. And if you're good in this, then you can just redo it. Did you feel, yeah, that's good. And then I think I just do it then exactly the same, in real, like I trained it before.
So it sounds like you're getting extra repetitions of training through your visualization process.
I would say yes.
That's interesting that you're saying from the outside perspective. All of my visualization practice comes from like behind my eyes kind of perspective. I'll have to try that. That's interesting.
Yeah, there's, there are different ways, huh? But this is how I do it. But also if I like think of maneuvers, whatever it is, acrobatic, wingset stuff, then I always use my hands. And I imagine myself, I am the hand. So also here, like I'm having the same thing. So it's just how you get into that situation. I think it doesn't matter how you do it. If you do it like from your eyes or from the outside, just somehow you have to think about it and go through it.
¶ Start Performance Strategies
Now, start performance. I'm really interested in this topic. what are your thoughts about? start performance? because before you said getting, really low and pushing below the horizon, things like that. I'll just preface this question with my thoughts. First is just generally, I think that there's different things that you want to achieve through start performance. Basically, do you want to generate speed for the duration of your flight? Do you want to be, are you racing?
So getting off of that exit point as fast as possible, or are you trying to clear a ledge? Are you trying to clear, the talus, that kind of thing. So I think that there are many different ways that you can judge performance on the start. but what are the things that you think about, in terms of start performance?
Yeah. What I think about is I don't want to have any momentum. So in the perfect case, I jump off in an angle where I want to fly afterwards. And as this angle is not up, I'm not jumping up. So I'm trying to jump like in an angle, let's, say like this in a perfect way where then also fly. but I have to say, this is not the safest way to learn for sure.
so at the beginning, you're always like more, a little bit jumping up or even like horizontal, then like arch, Wait till it starts flying and then you go And this is something you already have to learn while tracking first slick tracking tracksuit tracking Maybe one piece and then with the small wingsuits bigger wingsuits and so on and then if you feel comfortable then in my opinion you always Achieve or you try to get like lower with your position to then jump off in
a way that like the force is really like in your center of gravity, and perfectly away of the cliff so that you don't have this momentum and this rotations, I don't like this rotations when you jump off a little bit head high and then like it rotates and then people get scared and then they stall and then this is how many accidents happen as well.
Yeah.
yeah, that's, how I do it. And actually it doesn't really matter for me. If I'm going for a speed exit, if I'm going for glidey, if I go for thermal flying, whatever, acrobatics, so I always do it in a similar way because just my opinion is you want to reply it, and do it like as, as often as possible in the way how you feel it's the best. But there are also like some magic other exits where I look at people and I think of, yeah, I don't know why this actually works so good.
so it's not like that I'm saying, yeah, my way is the best way for sure. I just, I had some, good seasons where really It's still like this, but where I feel of, yeah, in this way, I start flying the fastest
Okay.
and the wings, it pressurized the fastest and you start flying away off the cliff, the fastest,
You said feeling. Now, are you a feelings guy? Are you like a numbers crunching guy? Are you like looking at your fly side data all the time? Or do you base a lot of things on visuals and feeling?
I think you always, I personally think it's important to do both. So you have to have the feelings, for it to, to just. Yeah, to just have the passion and to just like jump for fun as well. And, but then the numbers are super important to really get the reference how it is. So yeah, I think the best is to jump and then listen to a feeling. How was it? And then check the numbers and then I felt that it was good and it's something like this.
Yeah, that's right. Like using the technology to almost calibrate your feelings, right? Because sometimes things can feel great and you're like, shit, that wasn't great at all.
yeah.
Not so much anymore,
same like paragliding, maybe. Paragliding is a good example. So to learn thermal flying, it's nice to get the feeling of it, but then without the reference, you will not be the best thermal flyer. And I think the same is in pace jumping. Without any numbers, it's not safe in our sport anymore.
Yeah,
if you wanna push and go for more technical jumps.
so you also talked about your foot position and you like a staggered stance. what's the reason behind that?
Sorry, one more time.
So I said your foot position, staggered stance, meaning so like you have one foot forward and one foot back.
yeah. this is because I think of so I imagine so many things. let's say when I'm on a slippy rock, then I go through it, and I imagine myself when I jump off the slippy rock in the, let's say like a little bit sideways, because the exit direction is like this, then I cannot do it. if I have a slippy exit, and my foot is positioned like this, Then I have this, thoughts of forces, so I imagine myself, I'm a force and then in this angle, you will just easy slip.
So I think that's like my technical thing behind it. So I really like, a lot of do a lot of mathematics or did and drawing like forces and then getting out the aerodynamics behind it. And maybe because of this, I really think of their forces. And if I think of myself forcing in this direction, and it's slippery, then I slip. So I don't like it.
So I always I'm picky with that to find like a spot where I can push in a direction where there is no shifting or where the force is directly 90 degrees in the perfect way away of the rock. And because of this, I also think I don't like the running exits because you will never have your leg perfectly on the spot.
And people sometimes, they run I'm fascinated in it, super technical trekking jumps in France, French guys, back in the days, videos, what the fuck, they run 10 meters full out, and just throw themselves out. somehow it works and they're really good, but I couldn't do it. Like I did the same jump, like I can't remember the name, Charu, something like this. I think Charu, is it like a technical tracking jump? Maybe I have the wrong, I don't think so.
And I was there with the two piece, like in 2011 maybe, something like this. And also there people told me you have to do running. You have to do their running, and I was like, No, I will not do running and I feel comfortable to do that, like with one foot in front, and I did it. And I just think I bring my body faster in the right angle to be able to fly away.
And if somebody is running, he will have He will be further away at the beginning, but then it's more difficult to get into the right angle to fly away. So I take that disadvantage to have a little bit less pool, but I have my body in the right angle.
So you gave me a lot of,
wingsuiting and for everything.
yeah, you gave me a lot of hand gestures too, when you were talking about your angles. So let's maybe we can verbalize that a little bit. so you basically, you want to have your foot over the edge, pushing away from the rock is what you're saying, right?
Yes.
And are you really pushing at a 90 degree angle from the cliff? Wow. Okay.
Yeah.
And you
race exits, even lower.
even lower. Okay. Okay. And so you.
these pictures of myself where like I'm pushing like this, but if people say then
45 degree angle away from the cliff.
Yeah, let's see, if, this is 90, then it's 100 or 120, like 10 or 20 degrees lower than the horizon.
Okay.
But like I said, this is not something I recommend to just do it. It's something like you can work yourself down in a way and you will see if this is something good for you or not.
And you can't get that angle on the position that you're going to be pushing from with both feet out in front. I agree with you. Like I like to push, I'm a little bit, honestly, more of an up and over kind of person, when I've starting, but, when you want to push so aggressively at a 90 or less angle from the wall, you're. You're putting that back foot back so that you can get that angle on your foot without having to slip off of it. Basically.
Yes, and you just, you're more balanced. So I have like my whole weight actually on the back foot, like at the beginning. But then you shift the weight to the front to just check if that feels good. And then to have a full performance, in my opinion, performance exit, I then in a way, give my weight from the back foot to the front foot. And in the same, I push my body down and then push myself away with just one leg. So the other one doesn't really matter. It can stay like on shitty rocks.
I don't mind too much for this one, but the front leg, the position is super important for me. And I'm that kind of guy, which I'm like crawling on the exit to just put like this a little bit here, a little bit there, just to feel comfortable. That's
Yeah I'm like that too, man
You too. Yeah.
there was a little like wooden platform and you couldn't really stagger step very much And so like I was jumping with two feet and I think that's like the last place that I've jumped From that, like that, cause I really liked the, like a athletic position that you get with a staggered step like that. I swam as a young kid and, we were always jumping from the blocks with the staggered step and it just feels more athletic.
Now, I also thought of trying it like next year, like to really try to do two feet, exit and to see the difference because for sure with two legs, you can push more. yes. I'm just not sure if I feel that comfortable and to get my, body in the right angle. But like for the races, it could be a difference. I'm not sure.
Is that something you want to do more of in the future? Racing?
I really like it. So it's not like that. I want to do it because I want to win. It's just that I don't know what it's like the challenge. It's the challenge like to see where I am and what I could train for to get better. So I want to see the potential of where I can get better. And then it's just a question of Do I have the time and the motivation to do that? And then it's every year there's like some kind of stuff, but next year I would love to go for more racing Always
there was something else that I wanted to ask you about. Cause, like lately I've been, I've been exiting and I keep my arms really relaxed and I let the air fill my wing and then create tension as the wing is forming through the air, pushing through the inlets.
Basically the wing is forming for me and so I'm, I would say this, I've started doing this way for the last few years mostly because I don't jump technical exits anymore and I like The feeling of being ultimately relaxed, and then also, protect me from if there's a wind, I feel less vulnerable to influence from wind, but I'm starting to doubt that maybe that this is like the best performance start that I could be getting.
And like you said, like I could find myself, in a position where I need better performance and it's probably a good idea for me to continue to, instead of just being like comfortable with my, where I'm at is to push the boundaries a little bit more and continue to work on performance.
Yeah, always
do you like to go off the cliff with your arms at your side and physically push them out before the wing is inflating? Or what are your thoughts about that?
I think I push them out but not like tensioning up So i'm not pushing the wingsuit into like full that position where it should be Because I also think similar to what you said That it takes a bit of time to bring the air in, and the more you over tension the suit, the less it can inflate, in my opinion. I also do that, but I'm not, relaxing. the core itself is, full tensioned. It's, mainly on the whole flying. I always have a tensioned, core.
And the arms are probably a little bit looser, but I hold them in the right position. position, but not like, full tension. I've
directly in line with your body or are you holding a slightly anhedral position? Meaning arms below the, your center of mass.
no, I see that more and more, especially from squirrel suits and it actually, it looks weird, but it somehow works. but I'm, I think I have it like neutral, like really on the side. And I think like for sure, like performance wise to have them a little bit lower. performance wise makes sense.
But then if you do it from the beginning and you don't have the Perfect exit or a little bit what you say a little bit sidewind this and that and you do that aggressive position Then it affects you a lot So this is probably why it's just like really good people doing it and it could make sense but as a recommendation like for many people, I would not say you should do that or use from the beginning. So like always it's a progress.
Yeah.
I think everyone has to find his way and then it's really depends on the suit, like even. Within PhoenixFly and for sure also within Squirrel, there are some specific suits which require like different exit techniques a little bit. Not like too much, like you can jump almost the same with it. But there are some, let's say in PhoenixFly, when, you exit head high, then you get like a full push down, head low. And that's where I learned, because of this actually, I learned that way of doing it.
Of starts like to bring down the upper body then push in perfect in the center of gravity To because then the wings it inflates and you cannot get any momentum anymore So then you already start and you fly away of the cliff in the right angle
You're, speaking of wingsuits and Phoenix Fly, Why don't you, can you tell me a little bit about the suit that you chose to do with, the, foil project and, why?
the full project is I did with the chima and the Chima actually is like a suit for short starts and for high glide. And this is what I want to have on the project. this is the start which, the suit which starts the best, in my opinion, from the Phoenixfly range. And it also has the best glide. Best constant glide for sure.
We also have the competition suit, the vampire comp, which in my opinion, if you gain speed first for the PPC and all these things, for sure you have more performance, but starting from the beginning, if you have a good start, including as well for the total flight, then the Chima is the best to go. And also it has like a super good and easy pool, which I also wanted to have for that, kind of jumping. But yeah, I mean for the Phoenix fly range, I really have like almost all the suits at home.
Because I never, I was always thinking of, I want to have once you'd where I can do everything, but I found out that doesn't
It doesn't exist, yeah.
no. So I really like acrobatics and I really like this high Alpine mountain stuff where I personally take the Chima and then I really like the racing where I have the vampire. So I have minimum three suits. Now then I have this kind of thing, acrobatic suit, the smaller ones. I have four suits I constantly use. Within, within the Phoenix range.
And then they're like people even like having one Phoenix fly, one scribble on this and that it's, actually crazy, but also on the other side, I have to say, we learn a lot from swapping suits and swapping things.
And I think, especially because I jumped so many prototypes, like track suits and a lot of suits, which didn't work and then, starting also to, to test, jump for, Robbie, for Phoenix fly, there's like the coordination training, which is also necessary, or which is wingsuit flying, you learn from, variations. So if we always have the same, suit, same exit, same everything, we will not, in my opinion, we will not really get better.
You have to jump like a shitty suit and you have to, it's the wrong, it's the wrong thing to say, but anyway, we, learn from, everything. And we even learn from shitty suits that actually I wanted to say.
Not necessarily shitty suits, but, tests in maybe the wrong direction,
Yes. Yeah. Let's say it like this.
Yeah. speaking of getting better, you said earlier on in our conversation that, you really didn't like skydiving. I don't think that's the case for you anymore. it seems like you're doing quite a bit of skydiving. tell me a little bit about how your relationship with skydiving changed and where you're at with it now.
I think at the beginning there was one thing, it was money. Second thing was like hanging out in the drop zone the whole day. sitting around, packing, jumping, sitting in a plane. Like this was just like not my thing to do. I really like the mountains.
I like to hike go up the whole day having a full adventure the whole day to do one jump That's actually the nicest to do But then I started to realize that I need skydiving to really get better, especially in the acrobatic stuff Mainly So I started it and I realized it's actually really fun to do also eight jumps and to work on something. So I hate skydiving without any goal. So I'm not this kind of guy going for the drops in and say, Oh, let's just do six jumps, whatever one is leading.
We're just following something. So I want to have a goal. I want, and if I have a goal, then I have something in mind I want to reach. and then it's really, nice because I can work on myself or as much nicer even to work in a group, for something to make a nice formation with some dynamic stuff in between, I really liked that challenge. So I always liked this challenges.
Yeah, okay. Yeah, me too. It's, super fun. the group flying, whether
then think of.
or in the mountain or in the skydiving, it's so good.
And then think of the combination. You're like, you have a few friends and you started something in skydiving, like a super nice dynamic formation, and then you put that on the rock on a base jump, this is for me, like the total, yeah, that's, the best actually.
I'm curious now, We talked a little bit about mental preparation, and, then your training, you've also spent a lot of time in the tunnel. we don't have a ton of time left, so maybe we can just leave the tunnel for another time.
¶ Risk Management and Safety
I'd like to get your perspective on risk management. because earlier on you said that, you think that, there was some ingredients for making wingsuit jumping safe. I'd like to hear your thoughts on, safety, on your, outlook of maintaining a safe approach and, yeah,
the most important thing is to know, what you can and what not, like what is smart to jump and whatnot. So in my opinion, you have to know your numbers. you have to have. For sure, the numbers of the exit you want to do and also like a list of exits you should not do. Just to have this, reference of, yeah, that's something I still have like exits on the list where no, it's not smart to do that. I still know that I could do it, but I don't do it. And I really liked it just to have it in mind.
There are some. stuff left, which I could do, but I, yeah, I'm strong enough to, actually not do it. So this is important. And then you have to have a lot of knowledge about, conditions, because I think conditions like knowing the numbers without the information of conditions, this is so extremely dangerous. So when I, Talked with people and say what numbers do you get on this and that suit and he says yeah 160 and I was like what 160 with that small suit?
Yeah 160 160 and I'm like, yeah, but in which conditions and he like, yeah Like just normally it was like nothing really special and I said, sorry to say but I did Don't really believe that this is possible, like on neutral conditions. And then we just discussed a bit more and then it was like, yeah, it was like a South wall, the sun was burning in and like all these things that you have to have this knowledge and actually it doesn't make it easier.
So you really have to know like on which, Direction the exit was like north, south, east, west. How was the wind? How was the thermals? How cold was the air?
It's also like super interesting that actually the best performance I can reach on like cold air So even if you have thermals for sure in that part where there are the thermals, it's you have a better glide Then, in the winter conditions, but for the constant glide, I really had the best conditions like in January jumping from a mountain, which I jumped 20 times in the summer, like super strong conditions, but I flew the best in January without
anything just because of the thick air and some wind pushing up the thick air. Yeah. So I think like all this knowledge, you have to carry together somehow. you have to learn it from somebody, which is, which is not so easy. sometimes, and yeah, so knowing the exit, knowing the numbers, knowing the conditions is already like super important thing and knowing what you're able to do and like just reduce risks all the time. So to not push yourself and.
Even more important, don't push anybody else to do something, whatever, even if it's an aerial, or different exits. So it's, you have to have that feeling of your stay on the exit. It's yeah, let's go. So if I'm staying there and I have like sweaty fingers, my heart goes, bop, then there's already something wrong. I'm on the wrong spot. And to, learn.
To, read that signs, that signals actually I have to say, this is a progress we all have to go through and we should learn like this, the, belly, the stomach, how you call it, the stomach feeling, and the signs your body actually shows you anyway. something is not good in this situation now, and if I have this now, let's say like my heart really goes bomb and I have sweaty fingers, then I really step back and I go through again what's actually what are the numbers? What are the conditions?
I check my body again. I check why I have that feeling. And if I find it out, or it's just like I had to go through it again and the signals are away, then I jump. But if not, yeah. I would just skip it and go down.
That's really good stuff. what I found really interesting is that you have a list of jumps that you shouldn't do. That's I really appreciate that. Now, do you decide on jumps that you shouldn't do based on the numbers or, let's say you have, a hundred different fly side tracks and that the one, the lowest that you, have lowest performance you had, Doesn't fit with a particular exit.
I know that, see, that's one technique people have like find their limits by, what is your personal, judge of how you're, where your limits are?
I did, honestly, I did like many, jumps where like my lowest numbers, they wouldn't work at all. So I had these years of pushing lower exits. It's three, four years, four or five years already now. where I did like many of these jumps south wall, you need some terminals. and then I got like this list of numbers. Let's say I had 50 exits. Numbers then from a South wall with terminals.
And then I took the worst one from them and not from a North wall, with down drift, because this just, doesn't work, but yeah, now I also changed a bit because I want to have more margin and not just, You need to have terminals to be able to outfly that line or that exit. So I think that would be good and smart to everyone to step back and to not push into that direction. Because the short starts, where does it end?
It's people pushing and the exits get shorter, And because it always works, they continue going for shorter. So there has to be one. Point at the specific time where you turn around and then it's even an accident or almost accident or like any click I wake up in the morning. I say, why should, shouldn't I step back? And that would be the smartest thing, but I know it's, I know it's difficult if you so much into it and I was also in this stage, like people were already telling
¶ The Impact of Family on Jumping
me, ah, Peter, it shouldn't be like that you push into this direction too much. And I was always like, Yeah, but it works. all my exits are constant. It's almost the same. I had put the numbers over each other, but yeah, it's just yeah, I got a father. I have two kids like this is, I think for sure something I changed.
I was going to ask you about that. That's interesting. You bring it up now. did you feel like having, kids and becoming a father, had a profound effect on the way you view the sport and the way you practice?
Yeah, I think so. it's still not in a way that I thought of. Yeah. I stopped jumping now because I still think, that you can do base jumping in a way. Where you reduce risk so much that for sure, there's a bit of risk left, but yeah, I think you can do it in a way that can, that you can do it really long. and one time you'll probably have to stop anyway.
But yeah, there always the relationship of what does it give to me, like how much fun it is it for me, how much I love that passion, against how much risk is it. And for me, it's always like this, like the risk is really here and the fun and the passion is here. So I continue doing it. But if I talk to people and they then tell me, yeah, actually, honestly, every time I have this feeling of oh, it could be the last one. Something like this. And I was like, really? I don't have this feeling.
And I had this conversation to one guy and he then stopped jumping afterwards because he just thought it's normal. So he really fought kind of it. It, you have to be realistic enough to tell it yourself. You could die every chump. And I was like, if I would be that, then I. I wouldn't jump at all. I know for sure if I do a mistake I would die. but I still think, yeah, I think, still think you can do it in a way that you can do it safe.
Safe is, it's not the best word in our sport, but yeah, still
Yeah, that's interesting too, because I thought about that. for me and my own personal perspective, I struggled, quite a bit, when I had kids about, I wouldn't say struggle, be realistic. It was like, there was a lot of personal introspection about what it was I was getting out of it. And, I, I looked for other things that was, either replace the feeling or, could, substitute the joy that I get from, from jumping and flying. And, basically I started paragliding a lot.
And then I realized that I love paragliding, but it's not at all the same sport just because we're flying. It's a completely different activity. Paragliding for me, for example, cross country flying is all about determination. It's about, preparation and the planning, route finding, and then it's a constant battle of, reading conditions and, having the will to make another thermal and reading, judging. And, sometimes it takes up to eight hours in that day. This is nothing like wingsuit flying.
Flying and it sounds like for you and me both, it's a vigorous hike, from anywhere from an hour and a half to three hours to six hours. And, you have your little backpack and then you get to an exit point, you make some mental preparations and then you fly a line and you land and it's nothing like paragliding. I'm getting a little bit distracted here.
but, What you said about the what you get out of the sport and what you're getting from the activity is so vital and I think like what you said about somebody considering that it was just normal to be scared and have a sense of doom on every jump that you really need to do some introspection and re evaluate what you're doing there.
But same for me. if you have this relation in between like fun and risk, and you have a few jumps, you do a few jumps and you don't feel really Oh yeah, that feels good anymore. You don't have that fun anymore. Then I think it's a super important. Part to actually stop because like why should I then do it? Why should I have take that additional risk or the rest risk if I don't have fun then it's really my opinion no more Reason why I should do like the base jumping Currency
you there is very independent and specific to individuals. Like when I talked to Robbie, I met Robbie I don't know, 12 years ago or something, but I had no idea that he did the amount of jumping he does is not a lot. In comparison to like other people and it was eye opening and here's a guy who's a innovator in the sport long time practitioner and absolutely loves it still and He just does the amount that he wants to do. obviously he's busy.
He's got a business He's got a family and things like that Perhaps he wants to jump more, but he felt, he feels like he's getting the right dosage for what he wants out of the sport. what do you think about the frequency and where, because part of that conversation or this question that I have for you too, is you need to have a certain level of jumps or the certain amount of jumps to stay current, but then you don't want to have too many jumps where you start becoming blasé.
And, I'm forgetting the word here, but, Currency, right? Double edged sword. Too much or not enough?
I think I have it really, good at the moment. just, I would love to shift it a bit more towards, jumping at home. So if also my numbers are probably not what you will expect. or what, like young people jump a year. Like I, I do 100 base jumps a year and I do 200. Yeah. Maybe 300, 200 to 300 skydives a year. but like the 100 base jumps is I do 90 percent somewhere else, not at home, maybe 95 percent even.
So always when I go somewhere, then I go for two weeks full jumping, whatever, if it's South Africa or go to France or whatever, I'm like fully into it, like this mode of two weeks jumping. And, but at home it's like with the family, with the, normal life, the, we had to rebuild our house for the last two years. So there was almost no jumping. And this is what I would love to shift more towards, home. But yeah, in the, on the other side about the numbers.
I would say I would also feel comfortable if it's 60, 70 jumps a year, but not less, like base jumping. and I would need that skydiving in between. So if it's like just base jumping, if like people just do base jumping, no skydiving, then I think it has to be a higher number. Then this amount I, I was just talking about. Yeah. And also I have to say, because I'm like pretty long into that sport, you should not stop jumping and, have this constant, training as well.
But if you would start jumping and then have a low number. It's super hard to get current and to learn everything. So there is a, there is, years where you really have to be more into it to get over that, that additional risk people have at the beginning because they don't know, the border. They don't know what they can do, what is too much. And for this, you have to train a lot.
Absolutely. You have to develop a proper foundation.
Yes.
Yeah. you mentioned, alpine jumps and that's something that you really, enjoy. do you have anything planned? Do you have any aspirations, plans in the future for jumping in the mountains?
Yeah. I would really like to focus more on this, like Alpine stuff, combining with climbing and, longer hikes and Yeah, back to the stuff where I actually really started. and I did it with, I did it with paragliding a bit, but not like too much with base jumping, like high mountains, like 6, 000 meters stuff. especially in Peru as an example. And I really liked that, but I also know. That it takes a lot of time, a lot of training practice in a different way.
So there's also the, mountaineering, the climbing, I would need to focus a bit more, again, and then if I would have more time, I think it will shift a bit more into that direction for me. I would love to do more again, like the passion for the mountains, the passion, the real passion for the alpinism and, yeah, and less. Less, flying helicopters and things. it sounds stupid because probably people think the opposite way.
and I really like to take helicopters, especially for, project where you have to do quite a few chumps a day to get the production film everything. But on the other side, I would love to do it like just once and, hike it. It's just, it's a different value for me.
100 percent I agree with that. I have the opportunity to jump from helicopters here quite often if I want. And, there's something about the struggle of getting to an exit point. it's almost like a spring, the harder the approaches, the more that spring gets loaded up. And when you leave the exit point, it's just that much more rewarding.
Yes. Yeah, that's true. But also way more exhausting.
Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
No, but it's, cool. The, whole experience of, base jumping. If you really count everything, you count the friends, you count the, hiking, the climbing, the jumping and the stuff, which comes after the jumping, taking a swim, having a be here, like all this together is what's, the value for me in base champion? Oh
I think that's a really positive note for us to end on. is there something that you want to, talk about the foil that maybe I didn't ask you that we should,
no, it was just like, I wanted to talk more about the directions where it could be, what it could bring us, offer us the community. yeah, even like smaller, like super small foils, I think could give us like a glide ratio of one plus, additionally with just like a little bit of more weight. This is what people.
probably like when they comment the videos and maybe have a negative comment they're saying yeah but you're like almost a hang glider so what the fuck but if you think of me having 95 kilos with my normal setup and then add these four and a half kilos which is in relation like not much but then you have 60 70 percent more performance So I didn't do the maths, but you add this little percentage of weight and you get 60, 70 percent more performance, which is for me like a big value.
And I can even, I hiked it up, but as an example in Austria, like the whole wing was on my back, going up. So like everything is possible. It's just for now, it's still. It's a little bit too big and too complicated, but it could get way smaller. It could get way lighter and it could look way different. So we don't know, but there are ways.
And there are like many nice innovators out there as well, like going into different directions, even if it's like the carpet and even if it's like, the fixed wings, like it's really cool. And everything, just this one step into a direction, which we didn't know yet.
I like that perspective, just the innovation process, it needs to start someplace and, you've actually made a tremendous leap forward, in, this particular direction and, who knows where it'll take us. That's what innovation is like. there's, there was one question that I wanted to ask you though, it's When things went wrong, have you had any uncontrolled flight in, with the foil? Meaning spinning on your back, spiraling out of control, things along those lines.
I lost one. No, we had
It like broke off your chest? Like it broke off of the mount?
yeah, we had we had a really small one and then we made it bigger, but we didn't make the connection to the wing bigger. So I was jumping off the helicopter, like over like land where there was nothing. So that was the good thing. and just like with the relative wind, the wind, cracked. And so it was like on my wingsuit connected still, but not really holding. And I immediately flipped on the back. So it was on the black on the back flying, and then. just like pushing away the wing from myself.
And yeah, and then it was all good. So I had to turn around on the belly. Then I opened my parachute and I was like following the wing, on my parachute. And it was actually almost falling slower than my parachute because it did like this movement
Yeah. Okay.
flying around just
a leaf in the wind.
till, it landed, in the woods and landed close by and just grabbed it. But yeah, this was, yeah, probably it was important. Because we know, we knew then like how strong it actually has to be. and I know that it, this would be so bad if this happens, like on the real fight or on a base jump. yeah, we always trying to make it even stronger, to have that extra, safety. But yeah. otherwise there was not much things going on.
Andy, is the guy that, was helping you design these foils. Does he have an engineering background or is this something that you guys are all self taught with? Or how, what, where does the knowledge come for, to making these foils?
No, he has, he's like a carbon fiber specialist. So he was like drawing the carbon fiber components for a big Austrian brand. And then did like all this. he self teached him like to do like suits. So he started doing track suits and all these things. And I think all this together just made his path of engineering. He built like planes for himself, like this, model, planes. maybe this helped a lot because this is somehow, the wing is almost like a model plane.
It's like a similar way of, making it.
Interesting. Did, did you ever consider that, with the added, complexity of flying with the foil, that you would want to have, a backup or reserve parachute?
what I found out now is, I actually almost want to have a slider down rig.
Interesting.
flying so slow, on that, flight at Jungfrau, like this almost six minute flight. And in the end, I even flared a bit. So it was so slow that I pulled and I was like, no, come on, the canopy has to, go out. So this was really not a good feeling. And, or I just have to make, use like an even, or the mix of it. yeah. And also maybe I could use, but I didn't see like too much sense of it to use like a small round canopy, for the wing.
If you like have to put it away, like with the electrified wings, you'd have this, I just didn't see like in on the wing project that it's so necessary, but I would have it at home. It's a small, round canopy and you can put it in the wingsuit and when you cut off the wing then it opens automatically the round canopy and brings it down. But yeah, as you fly always, there is one direction we want to develop is even slower flying.
And For even slow and flying, if you then fly yeah, let's say like 80, something like this, kilometer per hour, constant speed.
Yeah, that's eerie. Wow.
that's crazy because this is where you normally pull when you go for a slider down opening. It's then 70, 80 kilometers per hour is what was our rule. We don't want to have more and therefore you would fly constant 80s like crazy. So you really have to rethink, that kind of yeah, how you pack the parachute and things like this. But then on one case, this is one direction to go like slower and to use it for soaring, thermal flying, there's so many possibilities.
But for sure, if you then even go further in this direction, To this direction, there is one time a place where it's like getting a hang glider. So I totally agree with that. Hundreds of comments on my video. You're having a hang glider upside down. But yeah, this would be one direction. And for sure, in one case, they are right. But then I also want to, I personally want to go way more to this direction. To have a playful wing.
And this playful wing, this cool wing, Could be so extremely fucking interesting, for everything for flaring, for new maneuvers, for even for acrobatics, that there could be so much interesting stuff going on. And this will be something we are actually developing at the moment.
Cool, that's exciting. I think you you may have caught a little bit of hate, in indicating that It was a world record. because it's so far It's not the same, but you're
You are right and I actually like from my personal context of wingsuiters, which I know they were all like Yeah, awesome, but I know that there is like a lot of not really much response from let's say America as an example I don't know there were not really people like too much writing and that's probably the case Because they just don't like this record things that we are saying this is a record.
And I was also discussing with rebel because I'm also not really the record thing guy, but what they are right is with numbers. We can really show that this innovation helps. And if we say we could just have named it different, like instead of record, whatever. But if you think of the furthest wingsuit flight so far, somewhere registered in the internet is 7. 5 kilometer. And we flew 12. 5 kilometer.
Then this is further, that's why we actually claimed it as a record just to, yeah, to get the attention and to really showcase that we're able to fly further. And then people say, yeah, for sure. You can fly further with a wing than without the wing. But if they would know how difficult it was to make that wing being able to fly stable and to get the performance out of it, then they would probably respect it a bit more. Bit more, I would say.
Yeah, because we had even wings, which made wingsuit flying worse. it was pushing us down and we were flying less performance than with a wing. So it was so sensitive to find that out. and I still think, we are still base jumping. I carry this up a mountain, I jump off, and I'm not paragliding or hang gliding, I'm still base jumping, but I have a fixed wing. Yeah, it's a compromise, it's super difficult, and I'm sorry if I pissed anyone off with that, it's really not, that we wanted that.
like I said, it's just to showcase, that we are able to, that it is something, it improves something. We can fly longer, we can fly further, and that's it. And we don't want to push down normal wingsuit flying. Because I'm also a normal wingsuit pilot and I love wingsuit flying. So it should not showcase that normal wingsuit flying is now boring or not good enough. It's totally opposite. And that's maybe what was
to this conversation clearly understands that's not your intention.
That's good. Thank you.
And if you don't, and if you don't get any hate, you're probably not doing something as good as you can, could be.
Yes,
catching some hate, I think it's a clear indication that you're doing something right.
could be. I still just really don't like it.
Yeah, no, I hear you. We're just about hitting two hours. And, again, like I could take this in a completely different direction now here, but, I think this is a great place for us to end again. Peter, thanks so much for taking the time out of your busy
you so much.
share this good conversation with you. And, yeah, man, stay in touch.
See you somewhere. Hopefully one day.