#42 - Scott Palmer: free fall legend, adventurer and 3rd generation aviator

Hello friends. You're listening to exit point, a podcast about the advancement of base jumping and an exploration of its culture. I'm Laurent frat producer and cohost. You can support this independent production by visiting our buy me a coffee link in the description. And giving us a review wherever you listen to podcasts today, I'm joined by Scott Palmer Scott, also known as plamber is a third generation aviator was a forward air controller with the U S air force.

And after serving in Iraq, went on to pursue a skydiving career with total focus with over 15 years in the sport and 11 plus thousand skydives, Scott has traveled the world competing and became one of the most sought after tunnel coaches. He has multiple world records and championship titles and has been involved in a ton of amazing aerial stunts, including appearing on Nitro Circus.

After reaching what might be the pinnacle of skydiving, Plammer changed his focus from flying his body to flying airplanes. He's now an aerial firefighter for the U. S. federal government. Plammer and hearing about how he's applied all his various life experiences to his base jumping. So with that... Let's get clammer on the track. Cool. Well, thanks man. Um, thanks for doing this. We got up early to talk we did and Catching you at the end of your trip and I feel like you guys nailed it.

You're walking away with The weather coming in, you had nonstop, beautiful weather. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. 15 days of a surprise trip for me at the end of my fire season. I was able to come here and we jumped every day and got a lot of the classics I was hoping to jump. Very happy. You really got the best of what, uh, the 74 can, uh, offer.

It's like, uh, it can be a little bit difficult because, you know, I'm working, got a family and my friends come into town and they get to do all the stuff that I want to do. And uh, so thanks for making me jealous. Yeah, you're welcome. I felt a little bit bad. Like I understand your pain, you know, I've been working all summer long while my friends are out having fun and it hurts, it hurts when you're at work. So I try not to rub it in too much while I was. Raging in your town.

What um, you're working as a firefighter, uh, aviation firefighting is I think is what you call it, right? Yes, it's aerial firefighting and I hate to use the term that i'm a firefighter because it I think it does a disservice to the gentleman on the ground or the And the women on the ground, uh, but we, we do assist the wildland firefighting crews on the ground. So I fly an airplane called a air tractor 802, which was modified from a crop dusting airplane.

Uh, it was put on floats that were made for a twin otter that they cut off the back third of the floats. So we can now fly down to the lake or a river and scoop up 800 gallons of water and then take it to a fire. And drop it on the fire. And we operate in flights of two to four upwards to six or eight aircraft. So we can really put a lot of water on fire really quickly. Wow. That's gotta be super intense.

I mean, first, just being a pilot in general, it can have some, a lot of intensity to it, and then you scooping water. The dynamics of a fire operation, the comms must be insane. The, I think that's the hardest part for people coming. So to do my specific job in aerial firefighting, you have to be a crop duster prior and in crop dusting, we don't talk on the radio very often, but because I was former military and. JTAC or forward air controller. I'm used to talking on the radio quite a lot.

And then my father who taught me how to fly was a former fighter pilot and air traffic controller. So he just like drilled in discipline of how to talk on the radio. So for me, that was a super easy transition. But yeah, I mean, we're monitoring four radios all the time and sometimes six radios. So you have to set up your radios in a way in which each radio has a different volume. So you have like a crescendo of volume, so you know which person's talking to you on which radio.

And then having the ability to, one, fly a plane in a low level environment in changing weather conditions and wind conditions. And so yeah, I guess it's intense, but again, for me, it w it wasn't a. Uh, more intense than anything I'd ever done before, again, coming from a former military and being deployed to Iraq and then wingsuit, base jumping and skydiving and high level aerial cinematography and things like that. It was just kind of par for the course for me.

And it's, uh, it's, it's exactly what I should be doing. I shouldn't be flying a, uh, A 747 with a 300 people in the back. That's for sure. That's not for me. When you got into flying airplanes, did you know that this is the direction that you wanted to go or did it sort of appear as you were progressing? You know, I didn't have a clear path when I started flying. I knew, um, like around the age of 30, I'd been skydiving for, uh, 15 years or something like that.

And I was like, I need to find another path forward for my future. You know, I played around a lot and I never really thought about the future too much, so I knew it was time for me to start. I remember thinking about flying and I thought, Oh, maybe I'll be a commercial airline pilot or something. And as I got into flying and aviation paths just opened for me. And when I got my commercial pilot's license, I had been flying in the Idaho back country.

I'd bought a little two seat tail dragger airplane with big tires. And so I've been flying with a certain type of aviators who are more of the cowboys, I would say, of aviation. And through this group of guys I met. people who are crop dusting. And I was like, well, that's, that's what I want to get into. That's like the wild west of aviation.

And so I started crop dusting and my first season as a crop duster, I saw the fire boss come into the air, the fire boss, the airplane I fly now, it came into the airfield. I was crop dusting out of, and I was like, what is that? I'd never even seen it before. And I was like, ah, that's what I want to do. And all the crop dusters was like, no, you don't want to do that. It's too much radio work.

You don't get to fly as much, but I was like, no, I think that the mission's more in line with who I am. So it took three years of crop dusting to get all the minimum requirements in and meet the people I needed to meet to be able to get the job that I have. Now is crop dusting one of the most dangerous sections of aviation? Uh, I think so. Yeah, I think it is the most dangerous part of aviation. Maybe military stuff might be up there, but.

It's not super well published, but in terms of flight hours and crashes, it's, it's pretty dangerous sector just because we're operating planes in a, of a low level environment. And anytime, as with wing suiting, we started operating in a low level environment, accidents do happen. And unlike the mountains in the Alps where there's very few wires and in, uh, crop dusting or aerial agriculture flying, we, we fly next to power lines and next to water pipes and terrain a lot. And unfortunately.

Fatigue happens and it's money driven, right? So we're trying to fly as much as we can in the day. And sometimes pilots get fatigued and forget that, Hey, what we're doing is super dangerous. They make that little mistake. It's not too often a mechanical failure anymore. It's mostly pilot error. Reminds me of a R sport. Yeah. Right. They've got a lot of similarities. Yeah. Is there any other similarities you can think of? Oh yeah.

I mean, being able to fly ahead of the airplane, this is a, I think a super important, uh, thing that you have to be able to do in, in aerial agriculture and aerial firefighting is you have to be really far ahead of the airplane. Just like. Wingsuit proximity flying, you need to be not thinking about what's, what's just here, but you need to be thinking much further down the line. Like in, we call them passes in crop dusting where we're not flying on that pass. We're not looking at that pass.

We're flying at the next pass or even the pass after that. We're planning for that one while we're currently flying. So it's not so much the same with a wingsuit and where you're thinking about the next jump, but I'm definitely thinking way further down the mountain than I am right now. Thinking in front of the aircraft. That's, uh, that's interesting.

Is that something like a theory, a theory or a theoretical practice, um, or things that you go over and like the education side of, of, uh, your, um, training? Yeah. So flight being ahead of the airplane, that's a common theme from when you're a private pilot all the way up until. You're a everyday commercial line pilot and that kind of goes back to, uh, training, planning, executing, and then debriefing. So this is like a core fundamentals of flying and aviation and in military work.

And then I bring this into skydiving and base jumping as well. Like I, I train for things then I plan for. The jump and then I execute the plan and then you have to have realistic debriefing after and say, Oh, well, this is actually how I deviated from my plan, how it worked, how it didn't work. How can I make it better for the next time? Did you find yourself debriefing some of your jumps on this trip?

Yeah, we debrief quite a bit, or I debrief every time, but I try to debrief with other people who are on the jump as well, like, just like simple things like comparing starts. Did you start where you thought you were going to start? And then like, uh, no, I didn't. And then somebody else says, no, I didn't either. And I go, well, that's interesting because we all thought the conditions were going to be positive, but it turns out the conditions were probably more neutral.

That just helps like ingrain, uh, maybe the sensations that you had at the exit point and then the reality of the performance that you had during it. And then, um, tying those together, maybe helps you to have a different sight picture the next time you're up there. Is that sort of like the intention behind it? Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Um. What about other elements of the flight that you like to debrief besides the start?

Oh, I really like to pre brief the line that we're gonna fly talk about the potential hazards that are there You know and and have an idea of the line that you're gonna fly and then sometimes that doesn't You can deviate from that plan, like in flight, like, Oh, actually, I see a better line now that I'm not watching it on a video or you've jumped that jump a few times. So, you know, you can make some changes.

Like some of the mountains here are very open to, you don't really need to have a strict plan of what you're going to do. You can kind of let the, the jump reveal itself to you as you go. But then I like to debrief that, how that line actually went, where, what were my key points that I, I, Okay. Picked up while in flight. And can I use those again, for example, on a Grand Chevrolet, we jumped there. I jumped previously from a different exit point.

So I kind of knew the second half of the line that I wanted to fly. And so then when we jumped high, high Grand Chevrolet, I was able to try and pick those same key points up again that I had one identified in the first jump. And then. I had to debrief myself on them and then I was trying to visualize those before I went into the second jump and seemed to work quite well. Yeah, maybe we can deviate a little bit more because of the amount of landing areas all over the place.

Like we can get a little bit lazy in the Alps. There's just green fields everywhere. Yes. Grand Cheval might not be a great example because of all the, you know, the vineyards, but um. Yeah, there's still plenty of landing areas. And there's plenty of altitude to go play over here for a second and still have that ultimate thought of where am I going to land and what is the wind doing? So can I make it to a good place to deploy my parachute? What about, um, deployments?

Do you ever talk about deployments areas, like with your, uh, jumping partner ahead of time, or is that just feel like that just kind of comes with the territory? I think sometimes, yeah, I mean, we talk about it, especially if the wind is up in the landing area or we know that like, we're jumping into a valley that has a pretty strong valley flow. I like to remind myself and then whoever else is jumping with me that, Hey, we really need to commute to a good pole zone.

Like don't be pulling downwind of the. The landing area. And then sometimes you just think, Oh, this is common sense. But instead of just thinking this is common sense, it's better just to voice these concerns or voice your opinion on the exit point or on the hike up. Yeah. It's always better just to like put it all out there, like vocalize it. Right. Even if it's super simple and everybody's really seasoned, just like vocalizing it. Someone can be distracted.

They're like maybe fiddling with their camera or they've got some new, a new suit or they're eating some snacks, whatever, just like vocalizing that I think can help everybody sort of focus on, you know, some of the things that are important, right? Yeah, I think so too. And in. In aerial firefighting, when we work as a flight, so my plane only has one seat in it. So I'm in charge of everything in the airplane, but we work as a flight of two or three or four airplanes.

So very similar to wingsuit base jumping when we go with our friends. And we have very strict call and response cues that we have over the radio, like As soon as I take off, uh, one's up handles up, which means the gear handles up gear in transit. And so then we know the gear pumps are running. And then before we touch down on the water, it's like props, full forward handles up. I have four blue lights for the water gate is armed. He don't pressure checks.

And so each person in the flight has to repeat these things when somebody calls it out and it's not, and we we've already done it in our. Own personal checklist, but we say it out loud to reinforce that. And then, man, I could save you in one day. Like, Oh, you, you go through the, Oh, I have four blue lights for the water, but you don't actually look and see if you have four blue lights. Cause if you don't have four blue lights, you're going to crash as soon as you hit the water.

So I think that with base jumping, just audibly saying these things. Not necessarily making everybody say them back to you, but yeah, verbalizing these things on the exit point is important just to get people thinking about this, reminding them, Oh yeah, I was too focused on the line, not focused enough on where I need to pull. What about visualization? Uh, visualization is huge, you know?

Uh, I was listening to, uh, your podcast with Luke the other day and talking about visual, visual visualization, and he's like, I'm so weird. I can just picture things in three d. I was like, well, I don't think that's weird at all. That's exactly how I see the world all the time. You know? I love this zoomed out picture. You know, I, I don't see, I don't visualize in my head of what I'm seeing. I visualize myself flying down the hill or myself flying an airplane or myself flying in the tunnel.

I see it from the viewer's perspective. So like third person. Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. Tell me a little bit more about that. Like your visualization process. Uh, I don't know if it's such a process, but I just try to look at the overall picture, you know, I think the zoomed out third person view, if you will, it helps you not be so focused on the individual task at hand, but it allows you to see all of the other elements that can go along with it. Like I try and visualize my, like.

For a wingsuit base jump line, for example, I try and visualize what the wind is doing, what the wind looks like in the mountains, and then what that looks like me flying down those mountains, where I'm going to see the wind shadows in the rotors, where I would expect to see turbulence and things like that. So then I know when I'm flying and I feel these things, it's like, well, I couldn't like, Hey, that's exactly what I thought it was going to be. No big deal.

We jumped out of a helicopter over Mount Blanc the other day, and it was fairly windy. We debriefed it before, like, oh, it's going to be kind of windy. And we were like, the first run, like, all right, we're going to take it a little bit easy and just kind of see how it feels. So we approached the summit very cautiously. Had extra speed and I knew like, okay, where the wind was coming from as we rounded a certain corner, there's going to be a bump.

So we raise up 50, a hundred feet and yeah, sure enough, there's a bump there. No big deal. You can settle back into the flight, re regain speed. And yeah, I think that visualization was super important because if you, we'd come into that line slow and flat, just trying to stretch out to get to the line and get close to terrain, that's when you can find yourself in trouble with. Uh, burbles or with turbulence, but I think if you're speedy and have margin, then these things are manageable risks.

We were talking about, uh, firefighting courses, uh, on our way over here and, uh, you know, I have a background in firefighting, like we were talking about and, um, I thought like this is, has to do with visualization and wind. And I thought one of the most interesting weather courses I ever took was the, um, White, uh, was a rapid water rescue and, uh, you'd be like, wait, what? That doesn't make any sense.

But you learn about how the water flows through, uh, uh, a river bed or wherever the water is. And you really get to visualize, I mean, wind air is the same and the way that it Eddie's and causes turbulence around corners and things like that. Really, it helps you by visualizing water. You can. Actually visualize how air is moving through, um, through, uh, the topography. And, uh, so, so when you said that about being on the Mont Blanc, I definitely do that.

And I just think about like, you know, what the forecasted wind is supposed to be, how it's going to look as it runs over certain features and stuff like that. I think it's been really helpful for both my wingsuiting and my paragliding. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Water and wind are the exact same. You know, that was something super beneficial for me, uh, coming into aerial firefighting because I also land airplane on water all the time.

And so we have to understand water currents and we land in rivers and it's the same. One very cool visualization tool. If you don't have the ability to Just close your eyes and think what the wind is doing is the windy app shows the wind the way it was Interacting with terrain.

I have a really good one for aviation called foreflight that shows surface wind and it's based kind of like windy It's it's incredible especially when you really zoom in and you can see the The rotors and how the winds interacting with the terrain and and then that'll help you build your own essay on individual Places where you go, but keep in mind when he's always just a forecast. It's not real right and foreflight is a little bit more Yeah.

ForeFlight is just an aviation app that, yeah, I think it uses the same probably model as windy to bring in the surface wind, but it shows how the wind interacts with the surface. Oh, that's super interesting. I'll have to check it out. You talked a little bit about, um, conversing on four different radio channels and for me, that would just like my head would explode probably. You know, I just don't have the capacity to handle that much communication and.

In line with flying the Mont Blanc, I would assume that you guys were on comms, right? That, that adds a little bit of an element to, uh, wingsuit flying, doesn't it? It does. I think you can add too much. I think there's a, I, I jumped with comms a few years ago. I don't know, maybe 10 years ago or something when they first were coming out and I didn't really like it. And I also tried comms in the tunnel when that was a big thing. Like, Oh, we need to have comms for coaching.

And I didn't like it. It's like, I could hear the breathing too much. You can over, over communicate. It's like, I could hear the breathing too much. You can over communicate. But now that I'm in an aviation job and where we train how we talk on the radio and we train in formation and the brevity that we use. I think if we were to bring that into wingsuit flying, like Taz and I have talked now, like, Oh, I think we should really bring radios into our flying. I, it allows us to fly a lot closer.

And you know, when you're following somebody. Feel like you, especially if you followed them a lot, like I have, I don't know, 200 jumps following Taz in a base environment. And I feel like I know what she's going to do, but she can still surprise me sometimes. Not surprise me in a bad way, but like, Oh, I think she's going to do a slow left turn and she breaks hard left or something.

But if you have her calms and you have a good brevity, she might have a left hard coming in three, two, one turn. And so Fred and I had that. Flying down the Mount Blanc and it was awesome. But on the second jump, he was ripping really hard down and I was able to just stick right with him. Cause he's like, all right, left turn coming in and we'd send it. Yeah, same with me.

I tried comms like 10 years ago when they first came out and I, maybe it was because there was a delay or they just didn't, the connectivity and you know, you were almost every other, um, communication was like, Hey, are you still there? Are you, you know, so it was sort of, yeah. But now they're, they seem to be really good. And, uh, yeah, I had a couple of really nice jumps with Taz this year too, um, following her and she did an amazing job of being a partner.

And, uh, we talked a lot about that afterwards, our own little version of debriefing and, um, it just really helped emphasize the fact that, uh, filming and, uh, flying together is really, uh, like a partnership. It's like a team sport. 100 percent because, uh, you know, sometimes people will, uh, I don't know, maybe we'll want to get the very best start they can, or like they have a hard time, um, maybe modulating their start.

Um, but, um, you know, you, I weigh close to 90 kilos and, uh, you know, Taz is really good and she's a lot lighter than me, has a big suit. Uh, she has great start performance. I'm not going to be able to capture her start unless she works with me a little bit, you know, relaxing and not just trying to get the maximum performance out of her start. Uh, what are some of the other things, cause you've done a lot of really cool projects and, uh, you've done a lot of filming.

Um, how do you like to work with people when you're working behind the camera? Uh, so the pre reef is number one. It's most important that the performer understands that you're a team. And if they want to be on camera, then they have to work with you. Like you, no matter what, you can always outrun me, right? Because I'm going to step off just after you. I'm not going to step off in the same configuration as you. Cause we're two human beings. We have different weight and things like that.

So we have to work together. And that's hard for the performer, right? A lot of times they get, if you're like me, you know, I have performance anxiety. I want my configuration to look really good when I'm flying. I don't want to look crappy, so I don't want to go slow, but you have to go slow ish and then slower, slower, especially on the start and then, then build into it. Don't just go ham. Like it doesn't matter who you are. You can outrun me.

Trust me, if you go, you're going to, you're going to leave me. Um, and then having an accurate picture of what you want. To accomplish with the shot. I think that's important and I don't need, it doesn't need to be super, super detailed down to like the minute. Oh, I'm going to turn exactly 45 degrees this way. I'm going to push 10 degrees this way.

It's just like we have an overall picture of what we're trying to accomplish with the shot and then we're both working together and understanding that we might not get it on the first one or the second one or the third one, but we're just working towards this goal. Overall goal of this one shot. Yeah, having an idea of what you want to accomplish is a good idea. Another part of your background, um, you have a huge experience in tunnel flying. You were an instructor for, um, how many years?

Uh, I guess I was, I don't know, I'd have to actually like put a little bit of math to it, but I instructed like working for the wind tunnel as the safety guy. I started in like 2005 and I worked for two or three years full time as a tunnel instructor between Skydive Arizona, or I mean, SkyVenture Arizona, and then iFly Ogden, and then Paraclete XP, and then I got to a level where I didn't want to be the guy standing in the door watching first timers fly or other people coach.

I just wanted to be the one coaching. I wanted to be the boss in the tunnel when I was in there.

So I just left being an instructor and just became a full time coach, and then I did that for 10 years or something, 15 years of Just solid coaching all the time, and it was super exciting time as I started in SkyVenture Arizona, which was the first wall to wall high speed wind tunnel, and I think that was a big pivoting point for indoor skydiving when we could actually fly with free fly suits that we used in the sky and fly head down and then slowly progress into what's now

called tunnel dynamic or things like that, which is Just basically invented by tunnel instructors playing around in the tunnel. And so I got to see the birth of that. And then that become a competition and then it become an FAI sanctioned competition and tunnels go from four or five tunnels in the world where I knew every tunnel flyer in the world to now there's 150 or something tunnels around the world, maybe more.

And there's kids who are flying at a higher level than I ever thought people could even fly at. Now it's, it's pretty incredible. So you've really seen it, um, but into a whole new sport. Uh. I was, uh, when I was doing a lot of tunnel flying a lot, when I was doing some tunnel flying, um, people were sort of surprised that I was interested in tunnel flying cause I'm a wing suitor.

And while I like to free fly, I don't have a lot of experience and didn't really have a ton of intention to like, you know, do lots of free flying. But I immediately connected with how good it would help me in general of, of just flying through the air with a wingsuit on or not. Can you talk a little bit about, uh, the relationship that you developed with the air and how tunnel flying came into the, um, help mold that?

Well, I think most people think skydiving is just falling through the air and I think tunnel flying is balancing on the wind. So. If you're a tunnel flyer and you understand this concept of balancing, uh, it, it applies really well to any form of flight and it's become, you become very, very body aware. Like, Oh, I need to balance on this wind. Um, it's not that I'm falling through. I'm not pressing on it to hold a certain position. I'm simply balancing on a cushion of air.

Um, and then for me, there is only belly flying and back flying. And if you believe this, then it correlates directly to wingsuiting as well, because in wingsuiting we only have belly and back flying. And so then, the concepts just very easily transition from flying without a suit to with a suit. I think that's why I was able to pick up wingsuit flying so fast, and, I mean... Not so fast. I mean, I've been doing wingsuiting since the Birdman GTI days. So quite, quite a while.

I mean, I'm a little old now. It seems like it was really fast to me, but I guess it's been quite a few years. Um, but I think if you can relax in the wind, in the wind tunnel and understand the feel and to balance, then. And you can learn to transition between the two and then it becomes just an easy transition to taking that balancing feeling to the sky. And then you're able to fly a wingsuit the same way and have that same presence of the body while you're flying your wingsuit.

And I think it makes you a much better pilot faster that we, you mentioned something last night when we were having dinner about how you weren't thinking about your suit or your position. You were just thinking about getting the shot, um, while you were following somebody and, uh, that just. Makes me think like, oh yeah, okay. So as long as you're not having to think about what you're doing. You're really in a good position to, um, just perform at a really high level, right?

Because every time you like overthink something, your awareness is reduced and you're sort of stuck in the process, but when you don't even have to think about, or you have to spend a lot of, you know, mental space perfecting your position or your configuration, it gives you a lot more, um, brainpower to, to focus on other things. Exactly.

I think it's not that I don't think about my configuration, but I'm a. Because of through the experience and the level I'm at now, I'm able to, yeah, not devote as much mental capacity to that. I can think more about the shot or I can think more about what I think the group of skydivers in front of me is about to do and how I can frame that better. And then I can also think about what my toes are doing really quickly. And they are, my right foot feels like it's a little messed up. I need to.

Do this to increase my speed or something. Do you have, um, well, let's, I mean, going back to that, I remember like, uh, one of the Red Bull aces, he did really well. Um, maybe he did really well in all of them. I don't remember, but there was one in particular where he did the second session. I did pretty good. Yeah. That was a good time zone.

Um, So just, I mean, I'm just throwing that out there that, you know, maybe you're not a competitive, uh, competition flyer, but, uh, you really know how to fly with really good performance. Is there a, a mental checklist or is there like a process that you go through, um, while in air to, um. To work on performance, you know, I don't know my performance that well. I, I jumped with a fly site quite a lot in base, then base environment.

Uh, just mostly to understand the start arc and things like this. So I don't jump them in the skydiving world. So I don't actually know how well my performance is. I do know, I don't feel like I'm, I'm behind too much. Um, I don't necessarily have a mental checklist, but it's comes down to air speed and air speed is we understand that in wing suiting just through the sound of how fast you're going. You know, the configuration, all I try to almost always keep my configuration the same.

I don't push too hard with the shoulders or anything like that. I try and just make this suit as tight as it should be. In a flat position, you know, I don't, I don't roll the shoulders down or push the arms down anymore. And maybe that's a technique that makes people go faster in competition. I don't really know. Uh, I think it's just stretch the suit as tight as you can get it and then understand pitch control.

Um, yeah, I mean, like we can't, like, I don't want you to understate your performance. Cause I mean, maybe you're not checking fly side all the time, but you're fine with some of the best pilots in the world. So, uh, you gotta keep, if you're keeping up, you're, you're flying fast.

Yeah. And, uh, lucky for me, I jump, my home drops on the Skydive Capalicin, and we like to fly fast there, so I feel like I stay on the edge, you know, I go away for a few months and I come back and I'm like, ooh, everybody's flying fast again, okay, step it up, order your suit tight. I'm really interested in this, uh, mental capacity thing, um, so, like, maybe we can, um, We can sit on this topic just for a little bit longer.

Um, the, in your aviation base, your career, do you ever come into these moments where it's like, Oh man, there's a lot of things going down. I need to like reduce, uh, the mental load that I have to deal with here. Are there any moments that you can think of where you're in your airplane and going like, okay, well, let's like cut down one, one of the distractions or. Tell me. Yeah. So load shedding, right?

It's like simple, like if the airplane is having a malfunction with the electrical system, we need to shut off certain electrical things and same thing works with the brain. If you're having a overload with the brain, you need to shut down non critical things really quickly. And so, yeah. And wing suiting, like you, you can get too much, you know, going on and you just need to be able to quiet, quiet the mind, turn those things off. Yeah. I don't know exactly.

How I decide what needs to go away, but, uh, Yeah, turn off what's uh, not needed right away, right then. Like, not in all skydives, but in certain stunts and things like that. Like flying with the Porter, or flying with the Red Bull 182. And we're getting a shot, but I know we're like tracking like way... Off the airport or off the designated demo area or whatever and it's like I could stress about that. I could leave the formation. I could try to get everybody else's attention.

Hey, we're not boring. Just like whatever. We'll we'll deal with it. No, I'm not saying everybody should just like go off and do their own demo somewhere in an unknown landing area. But That's the sort of thing I, that could, that could distract me from the job at hand. And I know that I have enough bandwidth that I can turn that off and deal with the consequence of turning that off later. I had a similar situation, um, because I was Doing some camera work and, uh, jumping out of a helicopter.

And I was 99. 9 percent of the time on my back looking up at the sky. And I wasn't, I'd never, you know, I knew that we had plenty of options for landing areas. And so I just sort of like waited until I turned over to, to figure out where I was going, uh, trusting obviously the, the lead, uh, but, uh, Yeah, it was like, uh, same thing, same example. Like I was like, okay, I should probably realize where we're going.

I know kind of the idea of which direction we're going, but, uh, put it out of my mind, focused on getting the shot and, uh, it worked out. Okay. Landed off, but like not by far. And it was safe. Another example of that, it might be when you have line twists, right? It's really easy for, um, uh, or an emergency of any sort. It's really easy. Like, uh, 10, 000 things I need to do right now and like start freaking out and lose the order in which things need to be done.

Like with line twists, you need to fix where the parachute's flying right away, especially in base jumping, especially if we pull close to something like, yeah, you can unzip your arms or twist the risers and get the right line twist down. But first and foremost, Turn everything else off and point the parachute in the correct direction and then deal with it. It's like, not necessarily, I haven't forgotten about all those other things, but I just need to prioritize certain things, you know.

That's a great example. You, um, you had a military career before you got involved with skydiving and tunnel flying. Um, can you tell me a little bit about that? I wouldn't call it a career. I was in the military for six years, so I would do a disservice to the men and women who've served like 20 years and call themselves career veterans. But I was in the military for six years and it happened to be during 11 and then the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So I was in the special operations community. I was a tactical air control party or a joint terminal air controller controlling airstrikes. So I maneuvered with. An army team and we, I would, if we came to a high value target or came troops in contact that with something bigger than just a, somebody shooting an AK 47 back at us, then we'd call on the big boys and have the A 10s come in or the F 18s, something like that.

And in 2003, I deployed to Iraq when we initially invaded Iraq and went through that stuff and stuff. Yeah. Then, uh, shortly after that, I was like, Hey, I think skydiving as a civilian would be a pretty good job versus this job. So I got out of the military and been running ever since. There's a couple of branches that do that, uh, for, uh, combat controlling or, uh, were you in the, um, In the Air Force or were you in the Army or?

So I was in the Air Force and for the most part, generally, only the Air Force controls airstrikes. Uh, some Navy SEALs can go through the JTAC school, some Rangers, some cat guys, but And so not to do a disservice on any of those guys, but those guys have a different job and they're just a little bit into the air traffic or the combat controller, um, forward air controlling close air support job where attack P that's, that's their main job is close air support.

Okay. So they're dabblers and you were, that was your main gig. Right. And so then we dabbled in. CQB or maneuvering with them. So definitely not on any levels of those special operators on that sort of thing, but our specialty was close air support. Okay. Did you, sorry, did you, um, enlist because of nine 11 or was it just coincidental? No, I was already in.

Okay. Yeah. Uh, I, I. I was raised in a military family, and I was not so smart in school, so it just seemed like an appropriate thing to do. I didn't want to go to college, and looking back on it, I should have probably been gone to college and flown military metal. My dad was a fighter pilot, but at that age, I think I wanted to do something different from my dad and going to be a jungle bunny or a snake eater sounded like a pretty good idea to me.

What describe those terms for people who don't know? Uh, I think jungle bunny, I don't know if that's an official term or anything, but I remember the recruiting poster. For attack P was like this dude in green with camo all over his face, like coming up out of the water, like probably the same photo for Navy SEALs and things like that. And I was like, wow, I want to go do that.

And then the snake eater term just means somebody who goes out in the field and is not afraid to stay out in the field and do whatever it takes to survive. Do you, um, do you feel like it shaped you in a lot of ways, your military service? Absolutely. I fall back on those things that I didn't think were shaping me at the time, but. Now I'm older, I realize, ah, I operate a little bit differently than a lot of people who don't have that former military training and discipline.

And as much as I try to like disassociate with that, it's still very much a core per core. Uh, it's, it's a part of my core for sure. Do you have some examples? Uh, attention to detail. Um, yeah, the integrity that comes with just being responsible for yourself and responsible for your teammates and being true to that. Um, uh, strong work ethic and a strong want to work hard until the job is done. No, give up strong. It's a mental fortitude.

Yes. Uh, I didn't, you know, I didn't serve in the military, but I was a medic and a firefighter. And, um, one of the things that I took away from it and I've seen in the way you do things too, and how we're talking right now, but like slow is fast. I had this one time where I was, it was like one of the first times where I ran a code as a medic. And, um, you know, This person was on the ground, uh, didn't have a pulse.

And, uh, we've had a, I had a good idea that we could work this person and get some positive results, uh, maybe naively and, but my hands were like shaking and I was like reaching for all the gear. And, um, I think one of the firefighters, uh, well, I know one of the firefighters sort of like put his hand on my shoulder and he was like. Just go a little bit slower, slow as fast. And, uh, you know, I knew I found out later after talking to him because, you know, he did a huge service to me.

I mean, I had heard that concept before and maybe put him into practice even, but never. Was it more applicable than this moment of like huge adrenaline? Um, everything really felt like it was on the line and it was up to me to save this person's life. And as soon as I slowed down, everything just became methodical and calm. My breathing slowed down, my heart rate reduced.

And, uh, this was a really powerful moment talking to this firefighter later on that, you know, he had, he had been to Iraq and served in the military as well, and probably brought it over. And, uh, from, from that training, uh, but super valuable, uh, as well for, for my base jumping, any of my flying, um, anything that's really been important in my life.

Breath, you know, slow down and take a breath, you know, like things started getting a little bit crazy and you start like sucking it all in and not breathing. Right. Just breathe, man. Do you have, um, A certain breathing practice or pattern that you like to incorporate, like maybe when you're scared at the exit point or feel the tension, maybe some performance anxiety on a filming job or any of that stuff. You know, I don't really, I don't try not to get too much performance anxiety anymore.

It's pretty good. I just relax and do the same thing. Just breathe and like I said, slow everything down. I'm like, I don't get too excited about how the exit count is going to go anymore. Once I'm ready, I'm ready. So I tell the person, Hey, okay, let's go. And I just, I tend to look down and just like, and then I just try and listen. And I look at their feet and I just wait. And then look at their feet. So they, you know, when they're going to leave the rock on exactly.

Yeah. And you just step at the same time. And, and then for me instantly, it's just all quiet now and now it's just, I'm working, I'm in my happy place. So you went from the military and you said, Hey, I want to be a skydiver. Um, what did your family think of that? Oh man, they don't like that at all. They still don't like it. My dad being a fighter pilot and a pilot and all of my uncles and grandfathers being pilots, it was like. Why would you jump out of a perfectly good airplane?

It's so cliche. But, and they've never come, you know. My dad's never watched me skydive. My mom, never. She hates it. My mom won't even get in a little airplane with us. But, I think as time went on they realized that, uh, I was actually gonna do this and it wasn't just a f A phase, you know, and then I think really I gained a little more respect for my dad when I finally started flying airplanes and now I have a job as a pilot. He's okay. He's all right.

He just does that jumping thing for fun, that jumping stuff. Your brother probably gave him a lot of grief as well. Right? Your, your brother's, uh, been, uh, uh, Really accomplished, uh, free flight, um, pilot, right. And he's a paragliding focused on paragliding, right? Yeah. My dad went and did that with him, jumping out of an airplane, but Kate also jumps out of airplanes and base jumps.

And I can remember when, so my dad taught Kate and I how to fly when we were in our thirties, so already accomplished. Base jumper, skydivers, paragliders, and we got to the point where Cade and I could fly the plane by ourselves. And one day we showed up at the airport with our skydiving gear because our plane that we were learning in our 172 has the ability to take the door off. And my dad used to kind of like brag. He's like, Oh, look, it's got the STC to fly with the door removed.

And so Kate and I showed up, right? Oh, we're going to jump out of it today. And he's like, well, I didn't say we could do that. I said, it's. Allowed to do that. I mean, okay. Right. Yeah. Well, we're gonna jump outta the plane today, so you can either come with us or not. He chose not. Oh, wow. Okay. So he's really firmly against it. Yeah, he's not against it, but he just doesn't, I think it scares him.

So, and I, I can relate to that, you know, like I'm in a relationship with a base jumper and it's, I don't get scared to jump. I'm not scared of my jumping, but I'm scared to lose my partner. So I, I think a, a father or a mother is scared to lose a child. Let's talk about fear a little bit because we share that commonality of having partners that that jump and I know I experience a lot of fear when Ellen's jumping and or can experience a lot of fear.

Um, and then you in particular have kind of been through it, um, with, uh, Taz and her crash. And, um, can you tell me a little bit about, I think first. I think it's really nice to talk about how people who have such a great, vast experience that you do and really been there, done that, um, can still experience fear. Can you tell me first a little bit about like your own relationship with fear? Like, do you still get scared? Do you still have to control your fear a little bit?

And how does that work for you? I don't get too fearful too often. Sometimes certain types of exposure, uh, something really new like Taz took me to, uh, A jump last year, it was a PCA, which I don't or static line, which I'd not really ever done too much of. And it was like, you had to exit in a stand through a slot in a Canyon and come out under an arch. And it looked like death for sure. So it was a little more quiet than normal.

She said, I don't remember like being shaking, scared or anything like that, but I guess I was quiet. Um, and then on certain like exposed approaches, I'm really fairly comfortable. Being exposed and not protected, but I definitely slow down and think about these things, but managing my personal fears. Fairly easy.

I still definitely have a few response, I guess, like, uh, in an airplane or wingsuiting when there's like a close call and you'll, and you suck something in, you know, I think that I still get that, which is important. If you don't have that, like, and like all your senses, like spidey senses turn on, I think that's when you kind of can be a dangerous aviator base jumper. If things aren't making the hairs on your neck raised, then you need to be asking why generally having to yourself.

Eat the fear, suppress the fear. I don't really have that so much. I definitely have a fear of, of my losing my partner. You know, I, I've seen people lose their partners and, uh, it's hard to come to terms with, you know, Taz has lost a partner. Um, and she says, it's like, uh, it's not like you had a breakup or something like that. It's just like that partner is no longer there, you know? And so I'm afraid of that.

I'm not afraid enough not to have a relationship with a partner who jumps because I think that's something super special that we get to share together. And I think it can be taxing on Taz a little bit when I'm always telling her, Oh, you should fly higher. You should fly higher. Don't do that. Don't do that. And it's not out of that. I don't think she's good or that I don't respect her flying. It's just because it's out of, I'm scared, you know, um, and it's something that I have to manage.

Um, and I think I'm doing an okay job at it. Uh, it's better when I'm here and jumping with her, like when I'm at work and she's jumping and I know she's going on a solo or something. I just didn't stress, which I'm kind of a stress case to begin with. So wow, you are, you could have fooled me. Yeah. I'm a silent stressor. Those conversations can be really difficult. I've uh, I. I'm glad to hear that you, you're good at it. Uh, I don't think I was always good at it. I'm better at it now.

Um, but, um, yeah, like, uh, I think cause both of our partners are super independent and, um, like telling somebody that they shouldn't do something who's independent usually results in the opposite, right? And so, um, it was a big learning process for me of just like, um, I think just being honest that I was scared, you know, like, uh, I. Maybe question something that she wanted to do or questioned her approach to it. Or maybe I didn't think that she had enough training or something like that.

And, uh, I know now, like, instead of just being like, kind of criticizing, it's more of like, Hey, this is what's going on with me. Like I have a knot in my stomach, you know, I didn't hear from you. Um, and actually even recently too. I mean, as we're talking about Taz is like, uh, Ellen always calls me when she lands. And then it was like a little bit later and then Taz called me and I was just like, my stomach just. I could feel my heart and my throat, my stomach was like, and a knot.

And then I picked up the phone and I was waiting for the tone of voice, you know, on, on the other end. And, uh, highly stressful moment. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, whew. Doesn't feel good. But, um, yeah, I mean, what I was getting to was that, uh, just like. Having that trust and then just being a little bit more vulnerable to just saying, Hey, look, you know, I'm putting my guard down here. This is making me feel uncomfortable. This is what happens.

And then I think when I was able to just say like, Hey, look, I'm scared and I'm nervous, you know, she was able to, okay, well, I'll do whatever I can to like, make you feel better. Like, you know, when I let you know, when we get to the exit point and so like, I know that. My moments of stress are reduced, right? It's like usually like five or 10 minute period. You know, I know she's at the exit point. I know that she's going to be landing soon. That kind of thing.

Did you go through a process as well of like maybe making some mistakes? And, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm still going through the process and having to, I don't want to take away from somebody else's. It's fun and enjoyment and I want everybody to be safe, but I also understand what we do is risky, you know, and, and just on this trip, you know, I was like, Hey, fly higher. I've been giving her a hard time, like you should fly higher, you should fly higher.

And then she looks at my video, she's like, well, you're not flying higher. I'm like, well, I think I am, but maybe, maybe in perception I'm not.

Maybe that's me being defensive now and so I just need to it's it's just out of fear You know, I don't want to I've been through the situation where I didn't get the phone call But I had a helicopter landed and somebody told me my girlfriend had just gone in and that wasn't the greatest feeling, you know I think sorry wait, you said you got a phone call that she had gone in. No, I didn't get a phone call I got somebody told me in my face like in a helicopter Sorry, please tell the story.

Uh, so yeah, it has, we were in a helicopter doing heli lines. I jumped out with somebody else on a different heli line and landed in a different landing area. The helicopter then stayed at altitude and took them to a different line. And then the helicopter. Took longer to come back to me than I thought it would, and when it landed, it was not in the exact way I thought it was going to come in.

And so when I got in the helicopter, the pilot looked back at me and said, Taz just went in, uh, we need to go recover her. And so, I was like, well, okay, that's not, not ideal. But, I'd kind of prepared myself for it, as you probably should if you have a loved one in BASE jumping. That there's going to be a moment, a potential moment when this happens, whether you're there or you get the phone call. So I didn't like freak out or lose my mind or anything like that.

Just my training kicked in and I was like, well, all right, let's, let's go see what happens luckily for me. Uh, within about five minutes of trying to get there, we got a phone call from the first person who arrived to her and said that she was conscious and I was like, okay, well that's a good start, but obviously not out of the thick of it yet.

So then, yeah, went in, landed the helicopter on the ridgeline and had to descend down to her and I got to her and, you know, were you treading through snow? Was it a difficult, uh, Yeah. So she was about 150 meters from the ridgeline, uh, at 12, 000 feet in snow. And I was not wearing equipment for that job. So it was a semi treacherous. I had to take my time. I didn't want to have an incident within an incident. Uh, so it took the time to get down to her.

And then once I was there, uh, she was semi conscious, not super lucid, but I knew we weren't like critical. I mean, it was critical. We, we knew we couldn't rescue her and we needed to call in. Um, with our own, what we had there, we needed to call in heli rescue and that took about 40 minutes. And so through that process, I was just trying to, I was nervous and scared, but just trying to remain positive and strong for Taz.

And uh, can you describe, cause we'd had a podcast episode where we talked with Taz and she gave a lot of detail on the accident, but can you, uh, recap it a little bit for maybe somebody who hasn't heard it? He was like the exact cause. What happened? Um, yeah. So the helicopter was flying parallel with, uh, uh, a ridgeline, uh, towards a peak and they were the intended line to fly was. Online a flight further ahead at the peak. Uh, it was a strong headwind.

The helicopter was not in the position for the exit. It may have been in position that they jumped previously, but not for that day. It's too strong of a headwind. The pilot gave them the go ahead to climb out. Um, the leader of the jump climbed out, uh, he realized the helicopter wasn't in the best position. So he instructed the helicopter pilot to continue to fly forward. Um, at the same time, the helicopter started to fly forward.

It started to descend a little bit, making the lead jumper a little bit more nervous that he was running out of time instead of like you have all the time in the world. I won't debrief that exactly, but so he felt pressured to jump. Early. So he waited as long as he could. Then the pressure overcame and decided to jump. Taz followed the jump from inside of the helicopter. Never flying this line before, but it. We did a proper good pre brief on what the line looked like from Google Earth.

She had good essay on what the line should look like. So they jump out, so she was on his right, high and right. Um, the lead jumper realized immediately upon jumping out of the helicopter that he was not going to make the line. So, as they were flying up this ridge line, To their left, he made an immediate left hand turn to the left to go over the ridgeline and fly out into open air. Um, Taz didn't know this. They don't have comms on.

Uh, so all she knows is she was following somebody and then she went through their wake because he had turned left 90 degrees. Uh, she falls through his wake and she went immediately into skydiver mode. What happens when you go into somebody's wake and you're supposed to be in a high right formation with them, you look at them and you try and get above them again, get back into your slot. So she split her focus from, or she changed her focus from the line to, I just need to get back in my slot.

Um, and so she spent about three seconds trying to get back in the slot. About a second before she gets into slot and then looks forward and realizes they're crossing that ridge that they've been paralleling. Uh, and she was now on the high side of that ridge crossing and the leader was just going to clear it by 50 or 100 feet and it was putting Taz not, not clearing the ridge at all and with no time to. Compensate at all.

So she impacted the Ridge at about six seconds into the flight out of the helicopter. Luckily for her, it had just snowed the previous night and it was a very windy Ridge. So I had a corner, a snow cornice. And so she impacted the snow cornice perfectly. Like you couldn't hit it any better. She hit it like right at the chest level. Um, and it caused her to flip inverted just for a moment.

So she bounced off the ridgeline, flipped inverted, uh, then the wind caught her tail wing again, flipped her back to her belly, and she landed on the snow and slid down the snow on her belly. At this point, she was running out of the snow field. The snow was a lot thinner there, and so she went through a rock field with her face and then came to rest about 150 meters below the ridgeline. Such a crazy story.

So, and miraculously, when I got to her, her nose was obviously ripped off or not obviously, but that's what was going on. So it looked very gruesome. Uh, and after seeing the crater that she created on the ridge and. Just laying there with a semi intact wingsuit and a packed parachute. And I was like, well, there's no way she's not destroyed internally. Uh, for sure. The next broken internal injuries and blah, blah, blah.

And so I went through the process of triaging and trying to secure, put her nose back on and calling the rescue. And through like pressing on her, there was no pain. We couldn't find blood anywhere else. I was like, no, well, she might be obviously probably maybe there's some internal bleeding still, but nothing was. strikingly obvious at the time. And then after about 10 minutes of being there, she was kind of becoming more cohesive.

Uh, and then at some point she had to throw up blood because she'd been drinking so much blood from her nose injury. And she's like, I need to throw up. I was like, well, cool, do it. Turn your head to the side and trying to like not let her move her neck. And then she's like, now, you know, Tess, she's a strong woman. She stood up. And start throwing up. I was like, well, maybe he's not super hurt.

We were at 12, 000 feet and it was cold and we weren't prepared to be in an alpine environment cause we'd been jumping out of a helicopter. So we started to lose her to hypothermia a little bit towards the end. And, uh, she kind of passed out again right at the end. So then that fear creeps up again, like, Oh, am I losing her? Is this it? This is the last time or these are the last words I get to say to my, my girlfriend.

Um, And then the helicopter showed up and he scooped her up really quickly. The, the rescue guy was only on the ground, maybe two minutes. Like we were prepped to get her off the mountain and it was a really, really fast rescue once he showed up. And then she was in the hospital, I think just under, or just over an hour from the time she impacted. Cause I could see from where we were crashed. I could see the helipad for the hospital, so it was super close.

Yeah, for some people might not know this, but there's like this golden hour, you know, in, uh, first response where you really wanted someone who's experienced, uh, you know, critical trauma like that needs to be in the hospital within an under an hour. And, uh, yeah.

Being able to prep a patient like that, having the knowledge of having, you know, wilderness survival or first responder or any sort of training that's going to help you expedite that process, even if you're not the like primary source of rescue is huge. Yeah. We got super lucky because in America, a lot of times the places that we're flying, we don't have cell coverage and we're far away from any help. You need to expect to self rescue. That's like our term in Moab, right?

But we're just where we happen to be that day. We had cell coverage and we were close. Had it been anywhere further in the back country, it could have been a completely different story. You know, and I think we've probably lost jumpers because of this, because it just takes longer than... I feel like a lot of people, um, In Moab, at least, that are seasoned, uh, are using something like inReach or, uh, do you guys have an inReach or, yes. I don't go anywhere without an inReach anymore.

Uh, we both have one and I think every jumper should have one. And then every jumper should also have personal small triage kit on 'em that they can prolong their period before a rescue to stay alive, you know, like a, a tourniquet or combat dressings, these sort of things that can help you from bleeding out if, if never was shot. Can you share in detail your kit?

Yeah, it's just that I have a garment in reach, and then I have a tourniquet, stage for single hand use, and then I have a combat dressing, and a headlamp, always. And then, I think everything else I can fashion, or... Did you say space blanket? Uh, Taz has a space blanket, I don't carry a space blanket. I carry a parachute, but a space blanket's a good idea too. Parachute does help insulate, uh, heat. That's a good one.

Yeah. Like we had a doctor on, on the podcast and, uh, he really opened my eyes to that. I mean, I, I had heard this before, but I just, it really like helped ingrain that whole idea that like, when someone's losing a lot of blood, the first thing that's going to happen is, uh, is, uh, you know, suffering from hypothermia or can risk being hypothermic because of all the warming properties that blood actually, uh, carries with it.

I think it's good to have a good med kit close by as well, but my personal kit I think needs to be small enough that I'm going to carry it all the time. Right. The best med kit is the one that you have on you, right? And if it's too big and there's too much stuff, you'll not carry it on all the jumps and then, yeah. Taz is smart. She has stuff stashed in her wingsuit, so it just stays in the wingsuit.

I choose to keep mine in a fanny pack and then I just transition it from jump to jump or whatever. Hmm. And then... There are some really cool kits you can get now from, uh, I think you can get them on the Moab Base Association website that's, uh, put, that was put together. That's a pretty nice kit. Yeah, I saw a post about that. That does, that looks great. Moab Base Association, website or something? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Don't quote me on what it is. All right.

Moab Base Association. Does Moab Base Association have a website? People can buy a medical kit on it. Uh, moabbasedassociation. us. All right. Now, you know, that's a man. I think Taz sent me a picture of you holding on to her nose while you guys were still in the snow. And man, it was, uh, what an intense moment, just wild. I'm really happy that everything worked out, but like going through that maybe might've like made the fear a little bit more real, right? Like, it's.

Yeah, I think it did, for sure. Uh, I probably had less fear about it before, and now I have more fear about it. Um, I put more time into thinking about the ones that my friends have left behind, you know, knowing a lot of, I don't know, widows, is not the right term, but those who are left behind, you know. And I have relationships with those people who have been left behind, and I have a lot of compassion for them.

It hurts my heart, you know, but I listened to the podcast with Marta the other day, and she's such a strong woman, and she says it so eloquently that she, she's not going to tell them not to do it, you know, they are who they are, and that's why we love them, so they can continue to do it, I'm not gonna, I don't control them at all, you know, I just hope that Taz would, or anybody's partner would think about more than themselves, you know, it's a self support we do, but you And that's okay.

I'm okay with that, but think just briefly before you jump that they're the things you leave behind. And that's all I can ask. Yeah. That's a, that's a powerful one too. Cause like, uh, now with, uh, with kids and, uh, and my wife, I, I feel like I'm carrying them on my back a little bit, you know, when I'm flying. So, um, and that's something that's super precious to me and, uh, you know, just like I would balance like a valuable piece of delicate.

Some article that I own, I would carry it very gently and carefully. And, um, I approached my base jumping like that as well. It doesn't mean that I don't, don't get a little dirty sometimes, but, um, it's with clear intention and, um, everything seems to line up perfectly for me that day. And, um, I think just like the value of those kinds of jumps with a little bit more intensity, um, I don't take it lightly.

Like I think before, uh, you know, when it was just so much repetition and base jumping was really like the main focus of my life, it was just like, uh, it was just an accepted thing that like, Hey, like I'm running at an 11 or a nine or whatever, you know, just day in and day out. And that's just how it went. And now it's like, Hmm, I'm going to just hold it at about a general six, you know, and then. Those special moments. I'll like peek out a little bit. Yeah, I think it's great.

I mean, I definitely used to run a lot higher level than I run now and I'm okay with running at the level I am and I still to get a little bit dirty and I still like to push. I'm not driven by how hard I can push. I get way more joy out of just the fact that I've been doing this 20 years. It's not how good I am. It's how long you've been doing it. That that's something that I think, um, I mean, you've been involved for 20 years.

You've seen a lot of people come and go, uh, most, I mean, the average base, uh, career for lack of a better term is like five years, right? Like it's thrown around pretty obvious. And, um, one of the things is like people, I mean, it takes a lot of, you know, we've sacrificed a lot. It doesn't feel like a sacrifice because we were having a great time, but. There's a lot of things that we miss out on because we're focused on our sport. And I think that that's like one aspect of it.

But I think that there's also this aspect of sort of people lose the sort of, um, satisfaction because it can't always be. 11, you know, you can't always get the same sort of, um, new and variable experiences that come with like jumping new exits, flying a little bit closer. Am I explaining this clearly? Yeah, I think people. Should change their debriefs as silly as it sounds like think about all the positive things that would not like oh I could have been closer. I doesn't fast enough.

Oh, I know but think about all the good thing We got to go on a cool hike in a beautiful place with beautiful friends And I got a jump to whether or not I flew the coolest line or whatnot But appreciate all of the other things and I think you'll find more joy in everything trying to be negative. Yeah It's just simple choice.

I think there's something about the way that we're wired as um, you know, action adventure athletes that like, we want to like, continue to get that new and varied experience and um, so you've, have you had those challenges yourself of like, uh, you know, like I'm not getting the same sort of stoke out of when I was going hard or. Maybe you haven't.

Yeah, I talked to Carson about this a little bit too because Carson says Carson Klein one of my best friends Who's also like 25 years of base jumping now, so he's a pro, right? He's been doing it a long time. Really good wingsuit pilot, base jumper, pilot in general, everything He's like, I don't know if I'm driven to do it anymore.

I was like, well, you don't have to do it anymore Then he's like and you also don't have to be driven for the same reasons like you're not Driven to go fly super low, but you just still enjoy it as to go to a skydive off of a cliff You know, that's totally okay, too. Like my Drives to do it have changed, you know, I'm not that hungry have to go proximity fly But I really enjoy filming people jump off I really enjoy spending the time in the mountains with my girlfriend jumping like would I jump?

If it had just been me that day, man, I might not have, I might've gone on my mountain bike or I might've gone for a run in the mountains, but because Taz wants to do it and I want to do it together, I think that that's my drive and that's okay too. Yeah. I think, uh, I recently interviewed Yuri, uh, and, um, you know, he's been at it for a long time and, uh, he. He just put it really simply and I really appreciated the way that he broke it down.

It was just like, you know, he's quit on numerous occasions and there's been years that have gone by where he didn't base jump. And he seems like that there was no conflict, you know, in his mind about it. You know, cause I think sometimes a lot of us can be like, I know that I do this, like wrap my whole identity around some of the activities that I do. And so like to say that, like, I'm not doing this right now. And am I quitting or this and that? This is just a bunch of noise, right?

It's really like, Hey, do I feel excited to go make a base jump or is this something that I'm going to enjoy doing right now? And if yes, then cool, go do it. And if it's no, then go for a mountain bike ride, like you said, or go for a run. And we really don't need to be, um, I guess, agonizing over this, like, sense of self of like, Hey, we were base jumpers.

I want to go base jumping because I know in the past before, like I sort of, I lost my stoke in times of like carnage, or it just felt like doing other things. And I spent quite a bit of time agonizing, like, huh, is this it, is this. Does this mean that I don't want to jump anymore? And, um, I think that that's a big waste of time. Yeah, I had a break. I quit for five years because I had a partner who didn't really like it. And I didn't know if I wasn't driven to do it.

I was super focused on tunnel flying and I didn't want to dabble. It was at the time when like the Bravant era just kind of started happening or just before that is when I took the break. But a lot of people were dying. I was like, maybe I shouldn't just be dabbling in that sport. It's busy doing other things. And I was like, it wasn't like a conscious thought. I'm quitting. I just took a break, you know? And then, then I had a thought one day, I was like, I think I need to jump again.

So I just got called back to it and haven't quit, haven't quit again. Um, so it wasn't that I quit, but I think if you want to take a break, take a break. Don't, don't let it stress you out. It's just like, and don't be defined by any, I try not to be defined by anything. Like that, like defined by being honest and I try to be a good person, but my sport doesn't define me.

It's a little hard for me to give up tunnel coaching and being on the cutting edge of the tunnel flying world as I was for so long. The thought of me giving it up was harder than actually when I just made the decision and was like, okay, I need a career change. And it just happened. It wasn't, wasn't, I was like, oh, okay, maybe tunnel flying doesn't define me either. It's just like, I am, I'm a person, you know. Not a sport.

I know that's been a real valuable lesson for me, just not getting too, I mean, cause I've sort of carried over into my professional life too, is like things happen. I don't get too wrapped up in the idea of like, this doesn't define me. This is just something that I'm doing right now. And it, it helps to, um, like you said before, having a third person view of what's going on, you know, you're not in it. You're not, that isn't you.

It's just something that's happening and you're able to observe it from a wider perspective. Yeah. It's a movie happening. I'm just watching. You're just the hero. I hope you're the hero of your own story. Um, 20 years, huh? That's a long time. What was, um, learning like for you? Where did you learn? How'd you start? What gave you the idea to do this crazy thing?

Oh, for sure point break when I was a kid, my parents said no. So I said, yes, that's, that's the ultimate cause of why I wanted to do it. But I was in the military and I was going to be able to go through jump school in the military and things like that. And I was really excited about that. So I sought it out on the civilian side and I learned in Caldwell, Idaho. Uh, static line progression out of a one 82 with this guy named Paul James.

He looked super sketchy to me coming from the military, you know, long hair. Like, it's like, is he on drugs? He wasn't, but I didn't know anybody on drugs at the time. So I definitely thought he was on them. And I don't think I was a great student. He loves, he loves to tell me nowadays that I definitely was not a good student that I've come a long way. So I don't think I have an argument a lot of times with people about the term naturally talented.

I just think it does a little bit of disservice to people who. Or really hard, maybe I, I pick up things faster than other people, but I definitely was not a good skydiver at first and not a good free flyer at first. It took time and commitment and, and earning it, you know, you just have to put in the time and eventually you get good at things. Like Taz was telling me the other day, she's like, Oh, maybe I'm good at this thing.

No, you've earned it, nine years coming to Europe to a wingsuit base jump to get to the level where she can fly down mountains the way she does now, which is pretty insane. It's not, it's not that you're good at it, you worked really hard for it and now you're reaping the reward for it. Now keep working and you'll get even better. Yeah, and sometimes, I mean, that seems so obvious in other sports, right? Where you train and train and train and train.

And I, for some reason, I feel like in base jumping, that sort of gets thrown out the window, like people just think that they can show up and, and, um, have arrived in a way, I mean, obviously I think that as more information is spread more smoothly, uh, people. You know, have access to more information. They can listen to people on the podcast. Like, you know, been involved in air sports for over 20 years. And they kind of get an idea of like, Oh, wait a second.

You know, I can't do what Fred's doing because, you know, he's a competitive skydiver. He's got thousands of hours in the tunnel and thousands of jumps. And so it's, I think it's becoming a little bit more clear, but for some reason, I feel like in the base jumping world, um, we've just sort of skipped over this, like overly used term progression in a way. Um, How did you, um, how did you start base jumping?

So I started skydiving and I saw the videos at the drop zone of like a Chronicles three, you know, of them on their Euro trip base jumping. And that's the first introduction to base jumping that I'd ever seen was through those videos. And I knew I wanted to do it. And I had heard there was a guy named dudes. Doing tandems at the drop zone across the street, but I wasn't allowed to go to that drop zone because they were like feuding in Idaho.

So I knew if some people were jumping off this bridge in Idaho, where I was from, but I didn't know anybody. And then, I went to a boogie in Lost Prairie, Montana, and met the Utah crew, Scotty Freeland and, uh, Susie and Johnny Coconauer. And Scotty was a base jumper, and his girlfriend Annie was a base jumper. And I was like, can I come do that with you? And he was like, absolutely, anytime you want. And so from Lost Prairie, I drove straight to Utah.

And then I lived out, then Utah was my home after that. They just took me in and took me to the bridge and let me jump off the bridge. And then Utah is just such a great North American base jumping location for slider down. And now it's turning into a pretty good wingsuiting location if you're into mini golf. Um, and so, yeah, I got my start in Utah and it was a fairly slow progression. I know it seems slow, but no, it wasn't Scotty Freeland. What a legend. What a quiet legend.

Yes. Um, still another one of those. So still jumping, still base jumping, still wingsuit base jumping this year to this day, and he's like 26 or 27 years in, like still doesn't look old at all. It still looks the same. Still as nice as ever. Charges, silent ninja, super talented. So the, um, Did you jump with, you jump with, uh, base jumping gear, right? That was, uh, yeah, you're not that old. No, no. And, and Scotty told me, he's like, Hey, I don't have any gear for you.

You're gonna have to buy your own gear. If you really think you're going to like it, just buy a gear. And so I bought a pair of G pro and a. I think my first pair of shoes was an Ace or no, yeah, it was just the Mojo, maybe the Mojo 240. Okay. But I switched out pretty quickly because I wasn't new, I was used and the Mojo 240 was a little too fast for me at the time. So I upsized to a 260. was a, it was just before the Ace. It was something else, but I can't remember it was not a blackjack.

Oh no, it was an ACE, not a blackjack. That's right. Yeah. What did you buy it from Marty directly? Yeah. All right, cool. What was that experience like? Um, I was super easy because I had Scotty hooked it up and yeah, I don't remember, uh, paper, uh, order forms. All right. Amazing. Yeah, that was, that's right.

Paper order form. Um, Yeah, I remember that Marty was very, um, did his background on people before, like I had to tell him who was going to teach me and then actually have somebody else verify that as well. So he had like two different systems of verification on if I was ready for this. Really thought that was fantastic. I think I might have interacted with Adam actually. Okay. Adam Filippino. Yeah, for that parachute. And then, and so yeah, just.

Jumped around Utah and did all the little cliffs around there. And then they took us, we went on a Norway trip the first year. Oh wow. So I had like 40 or 50 jumps or something. And then we went to Sherag and the same amount of jumps in two weeks. It was awesome. Tell me, do you remember like your first jump in Norway? Like that was your first. Terminal cliff, right? Yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that, that first terminal cliff.

Uh, so we got there and the guys were doing the smoke pant thing. Like that was right at the beginning of smoke pants in 2003 I think we went there 2003 or 2004 and so we're like, Oh, well we have rain pants. We should do the same thing. So I mean we're all burning smoke holes in our rain pants for my first terminal jump, you know, cause. Don't jump Slick and just try it like that. Like, no, that's the new thing. Do that. And so we jumped exit seven or something the first time ever.

And I can just remember taking out another 10 seconds or maybe a little less and thinking it was just the coolest thing in the whole world. Landing on that golf course surrounded by rocks. It was just so nice. Not, it's not a real golf course, but it looks like one. Yeah. The old PC one on one.

On the side of the helmet Amazing footage i'm sure amazing And then at the end of that trip I had such a hard opening that it blew the camera apart off the side of the helmet hurt my neck I remember pretty pretty awesome times i'll never forget that first jump at sherag just like the whole like running up to the edge and just Uh, man, I mean, I felt like I was hooked at that moment. This is something that's going to be a part of my life.

The flips, just running and just being able to do tuck three or four flips. I was like, what is this? This is the coolest thing ever. How are we able to do this? Speaking of camera flying at hard openings, like, uh, you've jumped some pretty big cameras, right? Like you have a RED, um, Yes. Some film cameras. It's, uh, yeah. So like, uh, what do you do for neck health?

Like, what do you do for, uh, do you have any tips or things that you think about when you're jumping wingsuits specifically to never look up during the opening? Yeah. Okay. Always like take what you got one, have a good parachute that you know, is going to work. For the most part. And if I jumped a big camera, like the red or something like that, then I wear a neck brace of a, you know, neck diaper, a racing collar or something like that. A racing collar. I don't know.

So specifically, like, tell me a little bit. So it's just like. It goes under a helmet, it's a big foam pad, it goes all the way around your neck. And then I brace the chin cup against that on opening. So as soon as I deploy, I put the head on that. And then if it's in a wingsuit, as soon as I can, I get embrace the helmet. Okay. So you're putting your hands by your chin there and you're just supporting so you don't get a little whiplash. Yeah, exactly.

And then if I'm not in a wingsuit, then my hand goes to this, the helmet right away. Just because my neck is tired, got 14, 000 skydives or something like that. My neck's tired. Yeah. You've got a long neck too, like me. And I think that we're like more susceptible to whiplash with a longer neck. Yeah. And for a long time I liked, especially in base jumping.

I mean, I wanted the parachute to stand me up and tell me that skydiving is over or base jumping is over now, as I get older, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't have. I've been priming for hard openings all the time, but now I'd just pull a little higher and have a little slower opening. Yeah. Also with like, uh, what Will and Matt were saying about tension knots and all the research they did around that, it seems like a slower opening may be beneficial to us in a variety of different reasons, right?

Easier on our body, easier on our gear and could reduce like the chances of tension knots. Yeah. Have you had any tension knots? Nope. Yeah. Sorry to ask that question like that, right? And don't jinx ourselves, but um, I haven't had one yet either that I know of. Yeah. I think about them sometimes. I saw one happen, uh, to Pat Walker and he... Did a two 70, I was like, man, that's a aggressive turn to land. Like as soon as you pull it was in Moab.

So you don't have a whole lot of time, but I guess it was a tension knot and he cleared it and then was able to land. So something I think about something I hope I react to correctly when it does happen, or I can do something to mitigate the problem, but I've had a lot of tension knots and Tannos, but I don't think that counts. No, it doesn't count necessarily, but it gives you some experience of clearing them, right? Or did you just cut them away immediately?

Uh, you always try, but a lot of times with Tandems, the lines are so old, there's just no coming back from them if they're there, you cut away. Yeah. But I think the paragliding training helps a little bit, like, we don't have a Stabilo line in Wingsuit or in... Parachutes, but I have a pull on the outside tips, trying to get the tips clear, snap the risers, just fight until the end.

You know, my dad taught me when we were just flying, if, if you end up having to crash an airplane, you better still be pulling on the stick and pressing the rudder pedals when the dust settles. So, I mean, just don't, don't give up, you know, you just have to continue to fly, fly, fly, fly. Yeah. Paragliding was a real helpful for me as far as just like, uh, understanding my wing in general.

Um, the, the parachute that is maybe even my wingsuit too, but, um, doing a couple of SIVs were really helpful. You did a really good course with Francois, right? No, all my SIV stuff came through Chris Anticroce. Oh, okay, cool. Stayed on the American side. All right. Yeah, those SIVs, I feel like that should just be a part of, uh, base preparation. And it's like, I mean, sure. It's a really huge wing. It's really powerful.

Maybe not the same sort of, uh, dynamics, but, um, just working on all of those, um, You know, simulating all of those, uh, incidents are so helpful, weight shifts, things like that. We don't have that really in base jumping and skydiving. I mean, there's some people that are incorporating that in their, their training repertoire, but like, uh, you know, we, we talk, Matt blank particularly is like, loves to talk about how, you know, we should always be training on our jumps.

Jumping our base jumping gear. And, you know, even with the Epicene, like just practice those stalls and practice those spins. And yeah, I think the cross training is super good too. Like we can talk about way shift. We can talk about how stalls and dynamic things work, but if you didn't do them in paragliding, it doesn't. It doesn't exactly work the same, like you can train it, but it doesn't feel the same in paragliding.

You really feel what weight shift does and you can really understand the dynamics of that wing. So if you learn that, then you take it to a dumb parachute and it makes more sense. And while you don't get that same feedback from the weight shift, you understand that, Oh, I need to weight shift a certain way to help torsion the harness so I don't get spun into line twist. Or I can turn myself into line twist if I want by torsioning the harness a certain way. Cross train. Yeah, do more things.

Don't just get stuck doing one thing. Oh, it's so much fun, too I've had so much fun with paragliding lately like, um, I didn't do a ton this year But I had one of my best cross country flights ever And uh, man, I just feel so lucky to be able to do this stuff and the my funny thing is is that like if I go out for a day It's, you know, like, and usually, you know, paragliding days and base jumping days are, you know, good weather. Right. And so like, I never want to like miss out.

So like, ah, it's like a little bit of a risk to go paragliding on a big cross country flight, because if I bomb out too early, then it's like, fuck, you know, I could have been jumping. It could have been having a good time with friends hiking in the mountains. And instead, like I'm 20 minutes later, I'm on the ground, but, um, yeah, I'm just, I need to be a little bit more, um, yeah. I guess not as hungry so that I can continue to progress in my paragliding.

So what do you, what's, what's next for you are, do you have, um, some goals around your, your jumping? Um, do you want to continue the way it's going? Is there something that you want to do? Where do you see yourself and your jumping going in the future? My goal with jumping is probably just to remain a, have a healthy relationship with jumping, not let it run me, not. Me run it, just be happy doing what I'm doing.

Um, I always like cool filming projects, so I'm fortunate enough to be connected enough with, uh, the Red Bull American team that I get to go film them when they have cool ideas, so I hope I get to do more of that and then continue just the aviation career and then maybe in the future, have a house here in Chaminade or somewhere close by. That'd be really nice. It'd be great to have you guys here sometimes. What about alpinism? You bought some new boots? Yes. You got a bit of a taste?

I don't know this or not, but I'm pretty much an alpine pro now. I've done one alpine jump. As Rudy says, I walked a little bit silly with my crampons. He's like, I watched you walk for an hour. I couldn't tell exactly what was going wrong, but it wasn't right. But yeah, that's something I really want to do more of. I think I'm really drawn into that.

Even though the The flights might not be the coolest flights ever, but I like the whole mission of having all the gear and hard to access places that not very many people get access. And then combining that with base jumping. Sweet. It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. What is it about earning it? The harder it is to earn it, like the sweeter it is. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think earlier on in my career, I liked the heli hikes way better or the easy gondola access things.

But now anymore, I just. I want to earn all of it. I want to hike from where we land to the top. I'm don't get me wrong. I still like some shuttles and things like that, but something about doing the whole process is special and if it requires extra gear, ropes, crampons, ice axes, that's, that's super cool. Yeah. You said that maybe the flights aren't as intense or, um, I don't know exactly. I remember the words you used, but it's true. Like when you have like a ice axe and crampons and.

Big boots and all the stuff that goes with it, the ropes and everything like that. Like the lines might not be quite as, you know, um, cutting edge intense, but the whole process of it, you know, is, uh, is amazing. Yeah, it's amazing. I walked down from a base jump this year because the clouds weren't great and the clouds might've got better, but I didn't even care. We walked all the way to the top, beautiful hike and it's good enough. Let's just walk down.

And I didn't care, you know, it didn't eat me up or anything like that. I was just like, yeah, I like the whole experience. There's something to satisfaction. Right. Um, I was having this conversation with Ellen just the other day of like, you know, we were both feeling really satisfied, you know, we have a bunch of friends who were in town and they're getting after it and some harder than others. And, uh, I think it was just one day where we're both like, eh, I don't want to like, you know.

Go hang out, go to the spa or something and just chill. And we were both sort of like, huh, we're getting old or something like that. And it feels good. Yeah. Like satisfaction with less effort is man. I'm like really starting to appreciate that. Like. You know, for years and years and years, just chasing after it constantly, just having a little bit of satisfaction knowing that you've had enough. I mean, maybe we just sound like a couple old dudes now, but like, um, I don't know.

For me, it felt really good. And it sounds like I was a young guy for so long and so hungry to try and prove myself. And now I'm just so happy to be the old guy. Yeah. Pretty nice. I mean, that's kind of a message I like to share with some of the younger guys too, because it's like, um, you kind of get lost in this idea of like, Oh no, more, more, more, more, more. And yeah, sure. It's really good to be current and do more jumps when you're learning.

And you know, there's a fine balance there of, of, of gaining experience, but it's like, um, it just keeps getting better and better too, right? It's just like more fun. The gear is better. The suits are better. Uh, the knowledge base is better. And, um, I think it's not being so. Such in a hurry to like get it done all the time. I think you end up like jumping longer, like we have. Right? Yeah, exactly. Don't be in a rush. There's a ton of other topics I'd love to cover with you.

Your flight's taking off soon. We have to have you at the airport another half an hour, but yeah stress levels about to spike now. Yeah So we got to wrap it up. Okay But thanks so much for getting up early to do this and it's been a pleasure to see you and thanks for sharing everything On the podcast. It was my pleasure. Thank you guys for putting on this podcast You and Matt have been doing a really great job and it's been fun to listen to I listen to it all the time and Keep it up, please.

Thanks, man. Appreciate it We hope you enjoyed this episode If you have any thoughts about what you've just heard, please don't hesitate to hit us up. A big shout out to Mark Stockwell, our sound mixer and co producer. We love you, man. If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, please visit exitpointpodcast. com. See you on the next one.