#36 Marine Descols: Hypnosis, intuition, grief and a very close call

Hello friends, welcome to Exit Point, a podcast about the advancement of BASE jumping and the exploration of its culture. I'm Laurent Frat, producer and co host. If you would like to support this independent production, you can visit our buy me a coffee link in the description and give us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. In this episode, we speak with Marine Descoles. a hypnotherapist, wingsuit coach, and camera flyer.

She did her first skydive at the age of 12 and developed a passion for action adventure sports when she met her partner Vincent. Marine and Vincent founded Sky Vibration, which is the world's first commercial tandem wingsuit operation in France. Marine is fascinated with the mind body connection and has pursued a career in physiotherapy and hypnotherapy, which led her to work with surgical patients. And later opened her own practice.

I'm interested in sharing her experience and discovering how we can use hypnosis to improve performance in sport and life. So with that, let's get Marine on the track. Well, we're sitting in your house here and this is the first time I've been able to go jump with somebody and then sit down and record afterwards. And at the very beginning of this project, the idea was to like record our conversation during hikes. Okay. And then. It's just noisy and annoying to have a microphone on you.

It's like rubbing and there's just a bunch of stuff that people don't want to listen to, including myself. So, so yeah, this is a really good second place, I think. So thanks for having me over here. We're sitting at your house with all these beautiful plants all around. We just went and jumped the Don to crawl and you absolutely destroyed me in your C race. Your start was better. Your speed was better and you were bending your knees almost constantly to stay with me, which was really nice.

So thank you. Thank you for. But I had the series. You had the creature. It makes a lot of sense. It was nice. I hadn't been back to the Dandekrol for almost eight years and it was felt like, uh, went back to when we first moved to France, Helen and I, and cause we spent a lot of time there jumping Dandekrol. I don't know how many times, lots and lots of times. So it was good to get back there and we had a nice conversation.

And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is I think you're in a very unique position. As somebody who is a hypnotherapist, uh, avid skydiver, and. Someone who BASE jumps and I don't think that there are too many people out there who have the sort of Sport experience for lack of a better term and the time spent dealing with patients Working with patients helping them through Challenges in their life and also helping them to form on a different level.

And I had a lot of, I had a lot of judgment about what hypnosis was and what hypnotherapy was. And you sort of opened my eyes to, it's not necessarily something that's extremely woo woo. And there's some really concrete lessons and exercises and training that we can use. And. One of the common themes that we've had in this, in this podcast is like just talking to people. It's about risk management and analyzing information to make better decisions. Right. I mean, I, we all agree that this is.

Making better decisions is more important than being highly skilled, right? Yeah, I think so. So I think you have some of the, this will be an experiment. We can, it'll be a little bit different than other episodes, I think. Um, so thank you for agreeing to do this and maybe we should explain a little bit about what it is that you do. So that we have a better place to start. Okay, as a hypnotherapist, you mean?

Yes. Okay, so I try to help people to go deeper into their emotions and, um, help them to manage this. Um, so, wow, it's hard to start, to start to explain that. What is hypnotherapy? For me, hypnotherapy is trying to Use another state of mind of consciousness in which you can go deeper into the information that you can't reach the rest of the time. So, um, you can't always understand the pattern you are going through because they are unconscious.

So you are driven by something, for example, in addictions for extreme, uh, extreme example, uh, addictions or grief or intense emotions. And you don't understand really why they are here and, um, even if you understand why they are here in the way that how they started and where and when they started, it doesn't necessarily give you the access to it, to transform it or to heal that, if that makes sense. Yeah. Because, um, you, you can be aware that something that you do is not good for you.

So at some point, you just need to, uh, go deeper into your heart in a way and, um, and, uh, talk to this emotion and to, um, transform it into something different, that is better for you. And, uh, the hypnosis is just a different state of consciousness that is natural. That can be trained, that can be, uh, uh, open to everybody. I mean, everybody can experience, uh, a kind of hypnosis. An hypnosis state. So this is not something that I do as a woo woo.

You told me, you, you told me about this world this morning. I thought, Oh, that's fantastic. We can have a true conversation now because, um, when I talk about hypnotherapy, most of the people on this understand like, Oh, okay, you try to become a witch or you have a gift or all the belief that we have about, uh, this kind of, uh, practice, but it's actually just using.

A natural faculty of your brain to open some spaces, uh, to which you have information where you don't have access most of the time. Okay. So that's super interesting. And I want to circle back to that, but then maybe you can tell us a little bit what else you're doing because you're also. Run a company. You're providing a very unique service. And so tell us about that part.

Yeah, I'm, uh, I have a company that is called Sky Vibration with Vincent, my husband, and, uh, we provide a wingsuit tandem. Together and I'm the video man after being the guinea pig for a while. But now I truly I trust the process for for sure hundred percent and I'm the video man of it So, okay, and You guys are the only people in the world doing Wingsuit tandem skydives, correct? Yes. Right. Well, to my knowledge. Yes. I don't think I've seen it anywhere else.

And I think it was for years, like every time you would talk to somebody that didn't skydive, they'd ask you, or, you know, like, can you do the tandem? You know, and it, for years it was always like, Nope, sorry. That's not a possible, you know, and it was always greeted with a laugh almost. So now you guys change that and we actually can tell them that it is available. Yes, it is.

And that's so funny because they are, they still, um, they still is a lot of, uh, um, fear about this because people don't really understand what we do. Even in the skydiving industry, it's hard to talk about it. Um, again, there are a lot of belief about it. And, uh, if we don't have the The conversation without the emotion and just listening to the fact, listening to what we do, listening to the process that we put in, in place. It doesn't make any sense. It's, there's only fear.

There is only reaction. There is only emotion, but there is no conversation. So I think that. Um, if people want to just know more about it, we can talk, we are open to talk. And uh, if it's, uh, it happens in the skydiving industry, which I can be understandable also, but it also happened in, uh, with the, um, those people you mentioned that really want to do a tandem in wingsuit.

But. They have so many beliefs that they think, they think most of the time that we will jump from a cliff or something. So we need to explain, we need to make them understand what's going on. And, uh, and after once they did it, it's so much clearer and they like it. And so that's, yeah. And you were telling me too, that you've done a few, that you've been the passenger and it was a way different experience than maybe you would have.

Thought it would be like, you don't like being a passenger in a slick tandem. Yes. I really, to be honest, I hate that being a passenger. I love flying my wings and I love playing myself. So I really don't like to give my, um, yeah, this to this responsibility to somebody else for me. But, um, we've. I trust my husband, he had to go through a very big test of, uh, analyze. I asked him, can you explain me how to do this and this and this and this and this?

And so he answered to every single one of my questions. So I was like, okay, I run, um, I want to try the experience with you. So we went and, uh, my first jump was completely incredible. We just had a slick tandem jump before, uh, tandem jump before together. And I was like, that's a boring and not. I really didn't, didn't feel comfortable. And after, when we went for the, the, the wingsuit jump, it was the first one together for both of us, actually.

So we were like, okay, so, uh, here are the procedures that we will apply if something happened and everything. So I trusted Vincent and, um. I, I was like, okay, you don't do much because I want it to be, to be calm and I want to feel, but I want to be, to feel safe. But finally it was incredible because we had a turn and we have, it was sunset with a very fluffy cloud just above the DZ. That was amazing.

So we had this first jump and I was like, Screaming all the time of joy, you know, because it was like so intense and we're like, wow, that's the best job of my life. So I was like, okay, okay, you got me. That's something clouds always make it better. Yes, they do. But even the sensation was quite incredible because it was not like flying my wingsuit because I could move my, my arms and everything. And what is interesting is that.

Um, I have much less air than when you are the passenger in a slick jump because you're, it's Vincent who wear both of us, but, um, so I feel that I have much more mobility. And, um, yeah. And the fact that we can move in the air, like properly and do a turn, do a barrel roll and everything. It was like, okay, we can truly move. And it's, uh, yeah, it's really, really intense, really beautiful. Like I can't describe it.

I mean, it sounds like you're doing a pretty good job and also having two bodies with one wingsuit, you've got to have crazy speed, right? Like you guys are going fast. Yes, but we still have a, an interesting, um, an interesting, uh, glide. Ratio, because I didn't expect that, but we went 1. 5. I mean, it's like a, uh, a small wingsuit, very small one, but still it's, uh, it's still a wingsuit feeling. Yeah. A glider, glide feeling.

You guys go pretty in depth with like sharing the data with your clients too, right? Or yes, I guess saying client wouldn't indicate that they would be returned, returned, uh, customers, but it's probably their passengers. Yeah. It's just like you said, because that's, we want them to be involved also. So you co pilot, you know, you can co pilot if we give you the space for this. If we teach you. You can co pilot.

I think it's even better when you don't have anything to do in this situation because you can just feel it, but, uh, you can be completely open to your sensations, but we, we know that, uh, we've tried it with, uh, Domiquijor, our friend and, uh, world class free flyer. Exactly. And we did, uh, we did that by the time we were, uh, Still, uh, training for the wingsuit tandem. Nobody knew about that. And she was here and she was a passenger. So on the, on a few jumps, I think.

And so at some point, Vincent asked her to pilot the wingsuit. So she was pushing the, pushing the thing and he was like natural. So, so she could do whatever. And it was really, uh, really fun to follow also.

Yes. I bet, you know, like I. I want to talk to you about decision making and, um, the things that go behind that through the lessons you've learned through hypnosis, but you've also had some really close calls to that I think are applicable in this situation to like, you don't really, you can't really judge your intuition or your, your sense of danger, I guess, until you've sort of like touched the outer limits of it.

And um, I know that this has happened to you and I'm not quite sure we ever like talked about it directly, but you, uh, you had a Cypress save. Yes, I did. Will you tell me about it? Sure. Like, sorry, I think that like, I can't tell if I read about it in an article or that you told me or anything like that. I think... Um, but I'm, I'm curious. To hear it from the horse's mouth, as we say. I didn't know the expression. It is a South American thing to say, I guess. That's fine.

Yes. Actually, I was, um, I was leading a jump with a few friends. Wingsuiting, right? Yes. Wingsuiting. So I was on my back and I. Exactly. I knew the pattern and everything was fine. It was like in the winter too, right? In the Alps, it was like a snowy situation, right? Yes. We've been organizing a camp there with a few students and, uh, and one, um, and I had one group of, uh, really good, uh, guys that were flying very well and everything. So we had, um, we had a jump to do together.

And actually, we, they knew the pattern, they knew they had to do this if they are not in the group anymore. So we had some process, procedures to apply in case, okay, if you fall, you need to go there and everything like that. And at the beginning of the jump, one of the guy just fall. I mean, he, he, He failed on an exercise and he just, uh, was a bit late on the, on the jump and he was under the group, but he was behind. And at some point he, he accelerated, but I couldn't see him.

I was watching the others who were in front of me and he was under us and he started to. Keep up now to reach the formation, but I couldn't see him and he reached the formation because he was so far away and he came back very quickly. Um, not quickly, but by the end of the journey where he came back and he started, he wanted to flare. To reach the formation and by flaring, he couldn't see us and he flare into the formation. And I was on my back and it was 1, 500 meters.

So I just turned back on my belly to, to, to do the separation and he hit me on the face because he was flaring up to the group at this moment. So I had this guy coming to, to my face. So I fell unconscious and, um. My cypress, uh, at this moment saved me and, um, and I, um, I woke up in a tree and, um, Wait, you just sort of glossed over that so quickly. You what? So then, are you recalling this story from memory or from video?

I, uh, the moment where I hit, of course, I don't remember, but I remember the most of the jump. Okay. And, uh, but, uh, after I woke up, after I woke up, I forgot the, I had forgotten the whole thing. I mean, I woke up in a tree and I thought I was in a dream. I didn't really understand what, uh, didn't really understand what happened. That's gotta be the most surreal experience, waking up in a tree. How high off the ground were you?

I, that was so funny because actually I was, I, uh, I was like, of course, very confused. I was repeating, uh, the thing all over and I saw snow. I remember the snow and it was like, What is this snow doing here? I'd never jump in winter. So for me, it made no sense. The whole situation was completely confusing. And I called Vincent because I have my, uh, my phone on me. So for some reason, I remembered Vincent. I called him and I was like, I'm in a tree. I'm very high in the tree.

I need some safe. Please help me. What's going on here? And he tell me, actually, he told me that I called him three times to has the very same question, but that I don't remember. I remember that moment when I was in a tree and he told me, okay, uh, the guy is, uh, one of the guys coming to you, please, please call him answer so he can find you and we come with a scale. Can you move your legs and everything like that? I was like, yeah, I can move my leg. What happened? Why am I in a tree?

Okay. You got the Cypress save and, uh, you need, um, we need to put you out of the tree. And I was like, yeah, I'm fine. Don't worry. But I have my vision narrowing, so I need help now, you know, because I didn't know if I had a trauma in the head or something. Sure. Sounds like it. Yeah, it did actually. But I was afraid that it was bleeding inside, you know, that's why I was, uh, in a, okay, we need to do something quickly. And, uh, actually I wasn't bleeding. And so that's cool. It's just.

That it was confusing after you woke up after this. And, uh, I remember watching my, the faces of my friend after they came, there were so many people, I don't know, they, they, they crossed the road with a, uh, a gendarme, a policeman and everything. So I had like many, many people around me in the forest when they found me. And actually when they arrived, they, they had taken a very big scale to put me out of the tree, but actually I was three, three meters above the ground, but I was.

I had this vision so narrowed that I couldn't even, uh, realize what was going on. You're saying scale, but that means balance in, uh, Oh, sorry. Uh, how do you call it? Yeah, like a, a wench, like a, a long line. They were, they, the rescuers on the cable, uh, ladder. A ladder. Thank you. As you're. Gesturing, climbing a ladder, I figured that was... Thank you.

So the ladder, and they, they had a very big ladder because I told them, oh, okay, I'm very high in the tree, but finally it was like very easy to climb down. So that was fine. And I remember these people around me and I was like, I know these faces, I have no idea who they are. Whoa, that's crazy. And I had spent one week before with them, you know, so I know them, but it's just, I couldn't put a name of them. And that was a really surprising feeling, but I was not stressed.

I was like, okay, you weren't stressed. I wasn't, I wasn't confused. I was just confused. And when I went to the, but after they decided to do a heli rescue for me and they put me in a, in another hospital, in a hospital just for, um, watching how I was going and I was okay. But from this moment, I started to have a big depression. It was. Interesting because, uh, I didn't know this could create this, you know, after the confusion, the confusion, I started to be lost. That was weird.

And my brain started to just, uh, fall like really down. And, uh, I had. The worst depression ever. I couldn't, I didn't know I could experience this. And, um, yeah, I think I'm, uh, right after I'm, I went to the psychologist and she made me realize that I should stop working for a while, which was a really good thing, but, uh, well, I had to, to deal with the big depression after that. And it wasn't like, Oh, okay. I almost died and I'm sad and maybe it's not bad. I don't know.

I think it was more. All the stuff I was carrying before that cames up and, uh, wow. It was an intense moment. But, um, but uh, after I put in place all the things I know, you know, the knowledge I had from, uh, uh, from my, my work to, uh, recover from this, and actually it was, uh, I'm really happy with that because I know what it feels like to experience this and when I have a passion in front of me.

It makes me a little bit more humble that I could have been before, because I was like, Oh, fake, come on, you could do that. You know, I wasn't like that, of course, but you can always have this like, Oh, isn't it making any effort or something? Okay, so like you can empathize with their situation more. Much more. Much more. Yeah, it's true.

It's like people who have depression, you're almost like, Hey, just go take a cold shower, you know, like work out or something and like, you know, eat some fruit and shut the fuck up. But it's not like that at all. Yes, it's more complex than that. And I think I already have some empathy, empathy, but, um, but actually it's when you have, uh, you experience that for real. It helps, it gives you a tool when you are a therapist after to understand it even better.

Because I've tried all the things like the cold shower, the, the, the fasting, the whatever I could, the meditation, meditation helped me a lot. Um, I've tried many times because I wanted to get out of this state and Um, I, I can say what tools worked on me and what, what didn't, and I know it's a long process to recover. And I know, uh, what step, um, I had to go through to, yeah, to, to recover fully from this.

I wonder too, maybe like, oftentimes people are looking for immediate results and then as. You went through that situation. Maybe you gained a little bit of patience to know that, okay, wait a second, this is actually a road that we need to travel like a, a journey that we're on here and that recovery isn't going to happen tomorrow and it's not going to be this session, but it's going to be kind of like a lifestyle for a while until you're, you're through, through it.

Exactly, because there are many, many different things to explore when you are going through this kind of, you know, it's like collapsing from every part, you know, sometimes it's just the little, uh, the little thing that, uh, that makes you explode, explode, sorry. But, um, it's Jen in general, because you have pattern, uh, think thinking patterns that are not helping you, or you have this, uh, uh, lack of sleep that isn't helping you This kind of relationship, you know, all those things.

And we need to explore all of this to, to recreate, uh, a balance or to recreate a, um, a good environment for, for this. So I think it's nice to, to give the time for, for this kind of recovery. It's more like a. a garden that has been, uh, burnt, you know, it's like, okay, we need to plant. We need to, we need to do, um, to take care of this, to make it grow, uh, in a better direction or, you know, it's, um, it's something that can take time. Mental health takes cultivation. Interesting.

I never thought about it like that. Um, I want to talk about mental health again later, but one of the things that I was interested in talking to you about is like a common theme that's come up. Is analysis, right? Decisions BASEd on analysis. Yes. And, uh, I think that it's, we've had guests on who are, you know, highly well versed, including your husband about laser range finders, GPS data, and, you know, using their skills as aviators to.

And, uh, you know, whatever background that they have to shed knowledge on analyzing data to make decisions. But I think that that's really sort of like half the pie, uh, or even a smaller piece. And I think that what I wanted to sort of explore with you was that there's always this intuition side of things, um, in BASE and adventure sports that it's just that feeling that, Hmm, something's not right.

And I want to see if you have some insight on that so that we can develop our intuition to be more trustworthy, because sure, there's been plenty of times where I've walked down and I have really no idea why, um, I've, uh, took inspiration from Steph Davis years ago, um, who said had this three flag rule. And anytime, like there's three things that go wrong, no matter what happens.

The jump is over and I've acted on it on, on a few times where something stupid like tripping and falling would be one. The second one would be somebody in our hiking party was got hurt. And then the third was dropping my bag and watching my helmet and GoPro go. Down the mountain, I was like, okay, there's just too much stuff going on. Okay. There's just too much stuff here. There's too many things going wrong. Three times, three strikes, boom, I'm over. I ended up walking down.

It took me like four hours to get down. It was, yeah, uh, it was at the Guy de Leme and, uh, the, the lift was closed. So yeah, it was a long walk. I don't know if I would make that wise decision again after that painful walk down, but though that's what happened. And, um.

Intuition can be confusing because there's a lot of intensity at the exit point, there's a lot of intensity, there's, we've often spent a lot of investment to get to that point, you know, we've trained in skydiving, we've bought our wingsuits, we have parachutes, we've done all the training. And it's now become a part of our identity to engage in this activity. And, um, the fear is often like something seen as like something we should just push aside. And why don't we start with that? Oh yeah.

What is, what is fear? Yeah. Fear is an emotion as much as joy or sadness or anger. It's a, it's an emotion. It's just, um, it's just a reaction of your body. Um, that, um, Um, talks about a feeling that you have inside. It's just a response. Um, an emotion is just a response to, um, an information that is not, um, an information that you can, uh, understand with your. Words or analytic brain. Yeah. I like that.

Yeah. So for me, it's like, uh, having, um, having a place where, um, you have, um, give me time. Yeah. Sure. Okay. I threw a hard one at you right away. What is fear? Fear. Fear. Yes. And, um, yes, fear is something that, um, that you're an emotion. So for me, an emotion is an information that come from your heart. It's not something that you can necessarily explain fully, or maybe if you can explain you have, sometimes you have, you just have to take it because you can't control it.

You know, you just experience it. That's it. And, um, and some emotion are just, uh, uh, metrics. To help you to understand if you are on the right path or not. Uh, but sometimes they can trick us. So if we start saying, Oh, if I have some fears, I, I will not, I, I won't go there. Maybe that's a bit, um, that's a bit too much, um, limiting, limiting. Exactly. Thank you. And, uh, but if you. You can't just listen to your emotion.

It's like having a, an alignment between what you feel and what you understand of the situation and what you, and what you experience at the moment and maybe signs like you, like what you did, because I think it's very interesting to be able to have metric also for that, like, Oh, okay. Those situation are. A bit creepy. I don't want to go, um, to involve myself more into those situations.

So this can be a good, uh, benchmark, you know, but sometimes, uh, here we are talking about inside benchmark inside, uh, uh, inner, sorry, maybe inner, inner benchmark, which is hard to describe and which is very personal because my way to experience fear. Might be a bit different from yours and maybe, you know, because there is a dimension that is cultural, that is, uh, from your education, that is from your, um, uh, beliefs about your emotions. So my beliefs about emotion are okay.

They are valuable. They are interesting. They can't lead or drive everything. I just need to, uh, incorporate them into my, uh, understanding of the situation. So I'm never fighting an emotion. I'm trying more to listen to it and to listen to, okay, what does it have to say? And, um.

Fear is definitely something that we want to put aside if we want to jump because we are fighting against instinct, against something that evolution put a lot of effort to in, uh, to put it in our brain, to make it grow in our brain.

So we need to actually, uh, listen to those fears because, uh, they help us to understand They help us to understand that our awareness is being, um, compromised, maybe compromised, and maybe sometimes, uh, helped with that, you know, sometimes some emotion also helps you to, okay, my awareness is better because I feel more safe. I feel in the flow.

I feel, you know, some, some stuff helps you to understand that, um, your emotion are helping you also, but yeah, in our case, in case of vision, ping and fear, it's. Something that helps that narrow a bit the when it's too big in narrows the the awareness and I think it's nice to take it in consideration because of course it will affect your, um, your decision, um, taking making. Yeah, there's Sorry, if I keep correcting you, I'm just trying to, I'm just helping.

And there's like a lot of like hand gestures that are going on that are signaling to me about what you're trying to say. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, I mean, cause there's different kinds of fear, right? We kind of covered that before that, uh, you know, like you can have like terror where it's affecting you physically and you're visually affected by the fear that you have, and there's other fears like that you were talking about that come from like an internal.

Place, uh, maybe terror does as well, but I think this transitions into us, uh, nicely into this intuition that we were talking about and people making sense of it because yes, before, like I sort of, like you said, thought intuition was quite woo woo and there's actually your body processing information that may not be available to your conscious mind, but is accessible to your emotional structure or your, um, I'm no expert in this, so I'm, I'm, I'm a little

bit, uh, struggling with the right words, but maybe you can, you can step in here and I think you had a really good real world example of how tunnel vision, uh, and, and being tunneled, uh, and using intuition to extract more information that may be there. Can you tell us about that? So, um, the story is, um, I was, uh, Free flying with a friend, I was sit flying in front of him. It was like, I don't know, 15 years ago or something even more.

And we were sit flying with each, uh, with each other and he was the BASE, so he was not supposed to move and I was moving around him and at some point I was flying and I, um, I was above him. And I was like, Oh, I should just go down on his shoulders so we could do a totem or something. I was not a good free fire, but anyway, I just wanted to try this. And on the, at this very moment, I was about to release my arm to be able to go down and, and, and land on his shoulder.

I heard a voice telling me, go away. And so I did, and straight after, uh, he had, um, an opening, like, um, how do you say? A premature deployment? Exactly. Because, yeah, so I escaped like one second before the deployment happened. Holy shit. And just because I heard this voice, I remember the voice like very clearly, just get away. And, uh, I did. And, um, and, uh, he was really scared. I could, because when the parachute opened, we had this moment where we saw each other.

And, uh, I could see his, his face was so scared because he thought I was still above. And so he didn't understand. Of course, he was surprised, but he was really scared because he thought I was still above. And um, actually when he saw me, I think it was better for him. And after, of course, it's just open and that, and that's it. But um, Um, you know, when I tell this story, people think, oh, okay, she's again a woo woo. And uh, or she pretends to be a witch or whatever. I don't think so.

Because when I went to home this night, I, uh, this evening, I told my father, okay, you know what happened today? And I told him the story. He told me, you know, maybe, uh, your subconscious unconscious mind saw the bridal. Like flying and you didn't have time to process the information, uh, in a conscious way. You just had the information coming and your brain responded this way. And for me, it's a really interesting, um, view.

From what intuition can be because we, nobody knows what the world is, you know, maybe they are spirits or whatever, but I don't know anything about it. And I'm not pretending to, and I'm not even getting on that road. You know, I don't know. I just don't know. So I'm just curious of what's going on. And when I feel, when I experienced something like that, and I, I've been through. Oh, many little stories like this one. And, um, I just like, okay, that's nice.

Even if it's a spirit or a God or what an angel, because I've heard many things when I tell this story, when I'm, when I'm telling that right now is that according to education culture or whatever, people will have an answer to give to me. I'm not looking for an answer. I'm just looking for, I'm just curious of what's going on and how can we create this, the situation in which your brain gives you information. In which whatever gives you information.

And so, um, for me, it's okay to know if it's, if it's an angel, I can, I can't control it at all if it's, uh, my mind, maybe I can train it to be more, uh, able to give me those information. So if I want to get more information from my mind, I need to train it. And that's what I did with the keys. Um, I'll tell you the story because, uh, uh, I think, uh, my friend Vincent Cote will, uh, laugh at me because he knows how many times I lose my keys. But anyway, I lose my key a lot.

And, um, when I do this, I, um, I happen sometimes to just, um, be like, okay, I need to find them. Oh, it's horrible. It is. You feel embarrassed, you're like scared about missing something, you know, it's, you feel shame. Exactly. Losing your keys sucks. Yeah. I have a story like that. I was, uh, in a, in a wingsuit camp and I was like looking for, for my keys and actually I was supposed to go to another camp seven hours away.

And so even better, people are relying on you and know that you've lost a lot of pressure and in front of many people, you know, you have the peer pressure, you have all the pressure you can imagine. And at some point it was like, I don't know, maybe four hours. We've been looking for the keys for seven hours with, uh, with the car. Yes. With a car that is full of, uh, of wing suit of, of whatever all the, the, the thing, all the gear that comes with running the camp. Yeah. A lot. Exactly.

Exactly. And so we, we had all those stuff in the ca, in the, in the car. And so we emptied the car two times. So that was a big, big mess. I've been looking all around, like everywhere, everywhere. And my focus was to find the keys and I was looking for my keys and everything. And at some point I was getting angry at myself. I was getting sad. I was getting, I like.

All my emotions were like, um, like, uh, confusing me, I think, tunnelizing me, you know, I was like, Tunnelizing meaning like, uh, Oh, okay. That's like tunnel vision. Narrow, narrow my vision and my awareness. Okay. You know, I was because of the, of the, all this pressure. So you had a bad effect on my thinking and I could understand this, but I was not even aware to notice it at this time. And my friend, one of my friends, she saw me like being more and more angry.

And she said, Okay, you know what, slow down, slow down and take the time to think, um, to, to, to breathe and to think about what you want and you want your key and you somehow you know where they are. I don't know why and her sentence made so much sense at this time. And so I started to get into a meditate state. So I stopped. The, um, the inner talk and, um, I started to just, uh, just ask for my keys.

And for some reason I had this vision, the vision of my keys in my car, but between the seats and you know, I, I never put them here, you know, I didn't do it purposely to, I didn't put my car, my keys in this place, but I just had this vision. And so I was like, okay, I know where they are. So I went to the car that I've emptied two times already and I found the keys. between those, uh, those seats. And I was like, seriously, how does it work? That's really, I'm really happy I can do this.

You know, I'm really thankful that I went to, I went through this experience because now I, I, I, uh, I'm training it more and more. And actually I realized. With hypnosis that we have a lot of information in our mind, because for example, when you enter a room, you open your eyes and you see everything. But with your conscious mind, your focus is going to the reason why you're here. So you're not exploring the room in every detail. You just.

Uh, look at what you are expecting or what you're looking for. And so your focus goes there. And because of that, you don't pay attention to all the details around you, but your eyes saw them. So your brain took the information and this is how you can create some, uh, tricks with, uh, you put, uh, um, an ID into people's mind. It's just because you, you put some, uh, um, little, uh, little pictures or little things like that. You can. You can lead an idea to somewhere. Does it make sense?

Uh, this, uh, because I know it's a very, what I'm hearing is that you using this key example as, um, not that you were given some sort of message from an angel that that's where your keys were, but that your mind somewhere in your mind and probably at a deeper, deeper level than what is normally conscious, you had the details of those keys and it took. A moment of relaxation to get out of this like tunnel vision, like state to access that information. Exactly.

Thank you so much for rephrasing it the right way. Yeah, exactly. I think we have a lot of information inside exactly when you are looking for a word or a name and you can't find it. You have it at the tip of the, of the tongue, but you don't find it. And after you change the subject and you're not looking for it anymore. The brain has still processed the, the, um, uh, the question that you ask it. And it actually give you the answer like hours after, for example.

And if you can create this state of mind in which information is accessible, then it helps you to. I think to get answers that are more aligned with yourself. See, this is, this is bringing it back to why we're talking about this, because I think that if we're able to reach this sort of state, while we're a set making assessments about potentially life changing or ending decisions, that, uh, this could be potentially very strong tool, right?

Some actionable advice that we could take to the mountains and, um, from. Our whatever meditation practice or hypnotherapy that, you know, we've, we've, uh, sought out. And I didn't think about hypnosis at this, like this at all. Like I thought it was like, originally, you know, someone was going to tell you to like, walk around the stage, like quack, like a duck, you know, and you know, they make you do silly things and stuff like that. As I'm talking to you more, it's about accessing.

Information that you have. Right. I mean, we've, we've. That's the point. Yeah. That's the point of hypnotherapy. Actually. I don't, I, I, I'm not even able to make anybody crack like a, like a tech. I don't do stage. It's very specific techniques. Um, Just to, to be clear, I, I don't have a gift for hypnosis. It's something that you learn. I went to school for that.

It's something that is BASEd on grammar, on sound, on, um, yeah, uh, techniques of, uh, how to manipulate a sentence, you know, so it's mostly grammar basically. And, um, how you create this state is by the way you use your voice. So the voice is a, the sound in general is a powerful tool to, to change the state of mind. It's a button, I would say. And so you can, uh, modulate your, your, your voice. So you can create this kind of, um, of change. in your state of consciousness.

And, uh, this is something that you can train. I mean, I'm the kind of person who is really not sensitive to hypnosis, like really not at all. So if you put me on the stage with, uh, with people doing hypnosis, I will not Quark, like a the duck.

Um, I will not because it doesn't make me anything, you know, so being a hypnotherapist and not knowing what it feels like to be really, uh, sensitive to it, it was really weird at the beginning, but after I had, uh, I, I can understand that they are very different, uh, sensitivity to it. I can understand also that we all have a different brain that function differently and what is important is to know your own function, uh, to explore, um, yeah, what you need to explore.

So how can someone go about training themselves? Um, to train yourself at this kind of stuff, I mean, you need to be curious and not being like, Oh, this is shit. I will, uh, do this or this or expect something specific. Because when, when I talk about hypnosis for the first time to some people, they imagine that they will be half sleeping. Most of the time people think that you are either awake or either sleeping. But it's much more subtle than that.

It's much more, there is much more range to your state of consciousness, consciousness, and, um, exploring those states by doing, uh, exercises as hypnotherapy, it's would be hard to give just an exercise like this, but hypnotherapy or meditation or, uh, being focused on something, being, uh.

Being a listening to everything around on, you know, exploring different state of mind, a state of consciousness, sorry, and being able to recognize them, knowing them, exploring them, you know, some people do that with drugs also, so it's also, or alcohol, it's also a way to be aware that your consciousness can be a very different from whatever happened. And, um, I think that we can make, um, we can, we, we can, um, explore those, um, capacity that we have naturally without any, anything else.

I mean, we can just do that with the sound or just do that with a focus and, um, and, um, have a capacity or skill that help us to. Take better decision. I mean, when you know that your emotions are a way to narrow or to widen your, um, awareness, this is something that we have to take in consideration before jumping, because for example, I've been jumping once the first time I've been, uh, jumping in a heli on a very high altitude, it was years ago.

Um. My husband had organized, uh, a nice jump with, from a heli above the Mont Blanc and we were, uh, flying, uh, between the mountains. So I had seen many, many different, uh, many different videos of it. And so it was cool. I was well prepared, but. Um, with the altitude and also because one of my friend just, uh, exited the heli. He fall, he didn't, uh, succeed his, uh, very, he had a bad exit. Yeah, he had a bad exit and I couldn't see him after.

And of course it, it took the right direction and everything, but I couldn't just follow him. And I was like, Oh, what, what, what's going on? And so I could feel that, wow, my awareness is going so low, low at this time that I was not able to think much anymore. And because I'm, I'm really curious about my different state of consciousness, I was aware of it. So I took the decision to take much more margin than I would have taken even for the first jump.

I mean, I took margin that like huge because I was aware that in this state of consciousness, I'm not able to think properly. You don't have time. You don't have a good analysis. So I take this in consideration and I, and, uh, and I do my things accordingly to. The state of mind that I can observe. So you went into this situation with the expectations of having a certain site picture of the line that you were going to fly.

And then when your jumping partner had a bad exit, everything sort of just got scrambled. And I mean, I know from jumping high altitude above mountains like that. Depth perception can be really misleading. Like, where am I, how am I going to connect with a lot of speed to the terrain? And, uh, it can be, uh, daunting. And, um, so you're saying that you were like filled with emotion and fear and. From, I guess what we're talking about is personal awareness, right? Yes, I think so.

And that hypnosis is a tool to, to gain personal awareness. Uh, for me it has been, but, um, I think they are connected in a way. It's just a practice. Hypnosis is a practice that, uh, serve, uh, the, to improve self awareness.

Because when you do hypnosis, you, um, open the doors of places in which emotional places most of the time, but like you said also earlier, um, purpose also, you, you know, the purpose you want to give in your life and everything, all those things that are quite hard to say into words, but some things that you feel, some things that you, um, experience, inside and not on the, you know, on the letter that is easy to, to, to show to people. It's something that is very personal again.

And I think hypnosis helps you to, to, to go in this, uh, in those places. So to have maybe the illusion of knowing yourself better, but at least knowing when you have, uh, access to your. Good awareness or not and take the, and simply take the, the, the decision according to it. Hmm. Yeah. I like the idea of being able to access, um, or being able to enlarge my realm of consciousness when I'm in tunnel vision.

Cause I mean, there's just no chance, like if I'm at the exit point, have my feet near the edge and I'm overwhelmed with tunnel vision, there's just no chance that I'm jumping, you know, it's like, That's a good decision already. Right. I mean, and then having the tools to be able to self regulate and, um, you know, what would feel like a dysregulated state, uh, would be. A massive advantage, right? Like, instead of just saying, okay, here, I'm at the exit point.

This is the, the site picture that I have on this particular situation. I'm just going to force it. Um, yeah, that's not a good one. Right. I mean, we've kind of already established that, but having some self awareness or I guess, having the tools to be able to clear that. And, uh, clear your, or just, let me, what am I even trying to say here? Just being able to have the tools to put yourself in a more calm position. So you're accessing more and more information.

Um, maybe we're repeating ourselves a little bit here, but, um, what does, uh, What does a hypnotherapist, hypnotherapy session look like? Like, do you do them remotely? I do. Now I do a lot of recession remotely because I'm moving all around with the sky vibration with our company. So now I do a lot of session like that.

And, um, actually it starts with, uh, a talk, a natural talk in which I ask some question to, to get to know the person and also to understand better what, uh, what are the expectations. Um, and after, once we figure out what are the goals of decision, what they expect, what they need, uh, that we find after decision, we.

Actually, we, um, we take a moment in which this person start to breathe and I start to talk a bit like this, you know, with a different voice that helps to get into a state of consciousness that is different. And um, as I see the person, thanks to the video and also thanks to what I hear, I know at what moment this person is ready. For us to start the, um, the, the, the, the, not the training, but the, the exercise or the, um, yeah, the, the work we have to do.

So I have this moment in which I push on the button to change the, the, the state of consciousness. So sometimes it takes a lot of time because the person is not trained for that or her, or his brain is not, uh, sensitive to it, but, um, I have some, uh, benchmark for me to know if they are ready or not. And, um, it's a state of mind in which you can, it's a state of consciousness in, in which you can actually talk to me. So you are half aware.

And have in another place in which you can have visions or hear things or have access to emotion that are usually well hidden. And so you feel more sensitive, you feel more, uh, vulnerable maybe. But what is nice about it is that, okay. We do this in a safe place, in a safe environment so you can explore your emotions. And, um, we're not here to judge most of the time. We don't want to have access to it because when we have a huge emotion, uh, we don't know how to manage it.

And if we don't know how to manage it, then we, the only way that we know to deal with it is just to, to flee away from it. And, um. In those places in, in, in a therapy session, you can just give some place to the person to express, to meet the emotion. And when you meet the emotion, you have the information that comes with.

And at this moment you have, uh, maybe if you have fear and you meet your fear, you experience it fully, but you are in a way in which you're in a place in which you are safe to experience it. And me, I'm here to guide you to tell, okay. What does it look like? Uh, how does it feel? And we explore it fully. And because we explore it fully, the person is, Oh, okay. Maybe it's not as scary as it is. And maybe I need the information that this fear is giving to me.

So you're not, fleeing away for your emotion from your emotion anymore. You just, um, welcoming them to, um, to know what message they want to give to you. And this message sometimes is different from what you have in mind. For example, I want to do this job. Okay. Why? Uh, I don't know why it's, uh, do you, do you, uh, you want to do it, but you, you don't know if it's good for you or not. And you have, you are confused about your feeling. You have a conflict, a conflict, a conflict inside.

So in this case, you want to know what's the, what's right for you, you know? And in this case, you just explore the situation. So some people do list and they are like, it's good for me because of this and this and this and this. And, but they still have the feeling that is not good for them anyway. And. You know, they're like, yeah, but it's not on the list. So it doesn't make sense.

And if you start to open those spaces and if you start to know how to listen to your emotion, well, it starts to give you more information and maybe you still need to do this job because even if you have some fear, it just needs that, Oh, okay. Maybe I'm, I'm scared because of this. And if you welcome your emotion, you will learn how to deal with that better. You know? So how does that help us as. Uh, action adventure sports athletes.

Um, dealing with the emotion can help you to, uh, be aware of your, where is your focus? You know, um, as you told the tunnel vision, if, if you are scared, it will narrow your vision. It will narrow, uh, your understanding of the, of the, and the experience. Uh, so if you are aware of your emotion, if you know how to deal with your emotion, you won't, you will not be overwhelmed. By the time when I was, uh, in this depression, I told you about earlier, uh, the emotion was a mess to deal with.

It helped me a lot to learn more about it actually, because I had so much emotion coming up and down that I was like, wow, how can we deal with so much things? You know, at the, at the time and learning how to deal with them was like, oh, okay. They stop overwhelming me. They stop leading or driving me. Now they can be.

a help but they won't drive my myself because if you let your fear drive driving you they will always put you in a safe place but you won't find your purpose because you don't Try things, you know, sometimes some fears are just something that comes from your, uh, education or from your, uh, past experience, but they don't put you in danger for real. So you don't, you can't reach your pup, your own purpose. You can, you can look for your purpose because you just, um, yeah, by your fears.

So I think it's nice to explore, um, explore our emotion and being able to navigate. Thanks to them also. So, and like, as you said, as a, as a jumper, being able to say, Oh, okay, right now I'm full of emotion because this happened and this happened and this happened and okay, maybe I shouldn't stop. I shouldn't jump because my awareness will be so low. Maybe it's not a good thing for me.

Or like in your case, not it just being yes or no for the jump, but maybe increasing your margin because you can, you have that, you realize that you're compromised in a way, sort of speak by your emotions. Yes. And for example, one day I had, um. You know, I was on a project, on a shooting, and, uh, it was a very important project for me, for us. And, um, the first jump went, uh, went really well. But before the first jump and the second jump, I heard about, uh, one of my friends death.

And, uh, it was, uh, really hard because it was a really close friend. And to be honest, I was, uh, wow, I was about to be devastated by knowing about this. And also because the project reminded me of this person. So it was really hard, really, really hard. But, um, I had to finish the project, not only for me, but also because for, for everybody else who was involved in it. And so I was like, wow, for me. If I was on my own, I wouldn't jump.

So, because I want, I would, I would like to welcome this, uh, this feeling I have of sadness and everything, but, uh, here I have to consciously put this emotion, uh, aside. And I also know how to do it because it's important in this case, it has been the only way to do it. I knew that I would welcome my emotion after I knew that I had to do this grief to the process, go through this emotion, but. It was not the time. And I did that consciously because most of the time when we. We do that.

It's like, okay, I have no choice anymore. Uh, anyway, but, um, in this case I was like, yeah, okay. I, I, I, I have the right not to jump. I have the right to say no. I feel safe enough with the people I'm surrounded with to say no, but I think I can do it if I put my emotion aside, I want to be focused on the jump. I want to be able to let this emotion talk later. And so I did, I switch off the emotion. So you can do that.

And this is what most of the people do with fear, but it's not something that you can do all the time because when you do that, you give space to your, uh, and analyzing, analyzing his mind to, uh, to do whatever you have to, but it will come back. You can't escape your own emotion all the time. You need to face them at some point and you need to just welcome them and understand them. And if you need some guidance for this, I think hypnotherapy is really good.

This also takes us to grief support, because, you know, you're, it's not a matter of if but when in this sport that you're going to lose friends. Yes. And we've all lost friends, and it's a heavy load. Yes. You know, if there's lots of ways of dealing with it, some healthier than others, um, but, um, I have a feeling that you've probably helped a lot of people, including yourself with grief. Can we talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure.

Yeah. And I think it's important to talk about it because we all face that in this, uh, in this, uh, sport. And. Mm. For me, the first time I've been help, um, I will talk that about that because I think it's important. Um, I've been grieving a lot because I've lost so many friends and in a period like in 2016 or even earlier in 2014, it's been. Huge loss all the time, like every two months for two, two years, I had a big loss, you know, that was too much to handle.

And, uh, I started to have PTSD without even noticing because I didn't know what it was at this time. And, uh, for me, it was really scary. I couldn't even. Hear the word, uh, the, the word, uh, death for me, it was like a spell, you know, I couldn't even hear it. And for me, it was like, what I'm yeah, I shouldn't be scared by your word. You know, it's so weird. I had the nightmares. I had all those things.

You can't sleep anywhere anymore, but you're just so scared because while it can happen, it's all the time there. And. It affects a lot your life, your everyday life. I mean, you are, you have a passion that you really like, you have friends, you, you have this kind of life that you choose and you really enjoy. And at the same time, you have to deal with the heavy price of it. And sometimes it's just way too hard, way too much.

And so, uh, it was interesting because Vincent was, uh, dealing with that very differently from me. So we were experiencing the same loss. I mean, it was the same people and we love them equally, but it was harder for me because I had my own way to deal with death and, uh, what it was. And, um, at some point I've read an article. Uh, of, um, Dukes, Chris McDougall, and he talked about death and it was the first time I actually read something, somebody talking about death in this sport.

And for some reason it was just describing every kind of death he's been witnessing, you know, and for some reason it helped me so much. I can't explain why it's so weird, but I can't explain why it helped me so much because I was like, Oh, I'm not alone. It's hard actually. It's normal that I feel that way because I'm surrounded by people who just accept it, but I don't. I don't feel ready for it. For me, it's too much.

And just the fact that we talk about it and that we are open about it, it's not a taboo anymore. I think it's really important because it's not nothing. It's something that can totally change your, your life and your passion and your, it's, it's a heavy price. I think for me, it manifested a lot in my personal interactions. Yeah. Like I put a lot of walls up and was very critical with people. We had an interesting experience today, um, at the exit point.

And someone wanted to talk about some disagreement that we had years ago. Okay. And, uh, I mean, you were standing right there. Yes. And I think that in the past, I may have been much more harsh with that person. Yes. And, uh, and sort of somewhat of a defense, you know, like, Hey, don't fuck with my vibe at the exit point. You know what I mean? Like, this is my time. Don't get in the space kind of thing.

And I realized after it happened, you know, I asked you like, huh, okay, was I too harsh with the guy? Cause this is something that I've been working through, you know, like I, I want to be accepting. Yes. I want to be help others. I want to make it a good experience for everyone. And I think that me in the past, just saying, Hey, I'm good with death. I got this, you know, I'm a paramedic. I'm a firefighter. I used to work on a search and rescue team. I've seen all this stuff before.

I'm good at this. You know what I mean? Who the fuck was I kidding? You know, nobody. Uh, well, maybe I kid somebody, somebody that was fooling somebody, but I was fooling myself. And the more I've, um, had conversations like this and the more I've, like, worked on My grieving process. Yes. The more that that's come to the surface that like, hey, just wait a second that like you said These emotions aren't going anywhere.

They're just gonna leak out somewhere else, you know You're gonna you're gonna flash anger at somebody at the exit point when they say something stupid. Exactly And, um, by dealing with this stuff, it kind of like lets that big heavy load off somewhere more appropriate. And what you said was, I was like, I asked you, hey, did I handle that too? And he's like, no, you handled, you put up some boundaries, which was totally acceptable. I was kind.

And I offered to talk to him about whatever he had in mind, um, at the landing area. And, um, this is like a little thing for me, but I was like, okay, this is actually what working through grief looks like in, um, in, in the real world. You know, it's not some sort of like hypothetical, uh, exercise. Um, so that's how it's manifested for me. That's my personal experience with it. Yes. And, um, but.

Tell me more because as you were, you've lost friend after friend after friend, you, um, you put these walls up and, uh, and then you read Doug's book and you felt like you were not alone. Yeah. Did that enable you saying, okay, wait, there's something not, I'm not weird. I actually had this reaction you're talking about. I could see the effect of my grief. Without understanding what was going on, of course, I wasn't a therapist by this time, and I had not all those tools.

So I was just suffering from grief without even understanding it. And the way it manifested itself, it was like, exactly like you say, I was aggressive to people. The way you responded was not aggressive. Um, it's not aggressive. It's just that For me, I, I've experienced the very same thing in a much more aggressive way. I was reacting very aggressively to people, uh, you know, in BASE jumping. I couldn't even see people BASE jumping. I couldn't even listen to their stories.

And even if I love BASE jumping from the moment they were laughing at, Oh, I landed in a tree. I was like, how the fuck are you stupid or what? And I was really, um, I was putting those boundaries, like huge walls between me and the world. And at some point it was like, wow, judgmental, hard, uh, not sleeping anymore. And I remember this moment when I went with a friend of mine and she was talking constantly about her boyfriend who died, who had died. And I was there when the.

Well, I was around when he died. So it was a heavy stuff. And she was not like us, uh, the, uh, in the sport. She was out of the sport, but, uh, her boyfriend was a friend of us and he died in, in front of Vincent. And, um, in paragliding. It was different. It was not BASE jumping. But anyway, uh, she, um, she was constantly speaking about him, uh, two years after. And we went together to the, to, to, uh, the hypnosis courses. And she was talking about him.

And at this point, for no reason, I was listening to her. I was like, Oh, after all, she, she's got the worst thing ever. I mean, I can. I can listen, you know, but I wasn't listening to myself, to my needs. For me, I should have put boundaries. I should have said, yeah, okay, it's a bit too much for me right now. I didn't. I was like, okay, I need to be here for her because she experienced this. So it's hard for her. But I was not listening for, to me, even if she was like, Hey, are you okay?

But this time, uh, she was talking about something, uh, accord, um, about the him. And even if it was one or two years after, I was like, please stop it. I can't anymore. And I just burst out like that. You know? It was intense, you know? And even me, I didn't recognize myself and I lost my friendship with her because of that, you know, because instead of just a. listening to my emotion, listening to what it felt inside. I was just like, okay, but that's okay. That's nothing. That's nothing.

That's nothing. I was not listening, not listening, not listening. And at some point it just make me hit me in the face so hard that I just burst out. I just yelled, not at her directly, but yelled in general. I can't, I can't, I can't stand it anymore. I can't hear that anymore. I want you to stop. And she was like, what's going on? And I understand that for her, it made absolutely no sense.

And I was like, so confused this time, because when you experience something so heavy inside, and you just don't put those boundaries, you don't respect yourself. And when you don't respect yourself, at some point, it will hit you in the face also. And at this time, I was like, Oh, okay. Maybe I should work on this, face it for real. And so I did and, uh, I started to do that. So I'm sad I lost my friendship with her, but I, I saw her after and now we are okay. But it's just like, Oh, okay.

Because of that, I lost a friend. I lost a friend because she was not responsible for what I was experiencing. She was not just afraid of my reaction and just, uh, wow, what's going on? What, who is she? I mean, I thought I knew her, but sometimes you just can't escape. what you feel. So you need to, to be able to understand it. And, and after I was like, uh, learning more hypnosis. And so I understood about, uh, the tools we can use for, um, for this.

And, um, you know, the grieving process is very specific. It's something that I do very often because it's the very same process that you do for, uh, a grieving with somebody who is dead or. grieving for somebody who is just a separation, for example. So it's a symbolic, um, act. It's a symbolic protocol. And, uh, when you go through this, uh, it's really powerful. I've seen things completely amazing about it. Like for example, um, you know, the first time I've.

I used this process, uh, to, to one of my patients. It was a woman who had, um, had, uh, a problem with, uh, sleeping. So she was like trying to understand why she wasn't sleeping anymore and everything like that. And she was like, um, saying, Oh, it's my, it's my father. It's because of my father. It's because of my father. So she was so focused on her father that she was. She kept talking about him and we had three session about it. I was like, it doesn't feel right.

I don't think she's so focused on her father. She wants to put the older fault on him. And so I was like, yeah, maybe we should, uh, we should explore it more because it's all in the mind what's going on. We're just talking about what she thinks is the problem. But what if we just listen to what's what's going on, you know? So I went to a very different, uh, exercise and I said, okay, let's know, let's explore what's inside without any expectation.

And she actually was really surprised because she met her daughter. She, she saw the, she had the vision of her daughter during the hypnosis session. You have vision, you can talk and it's, uh, you just have the eyes closed and you just talk about what you experience. And at this time, she just had the vision of her daughter coming up. It was like, Oh, that's surprising. I can't understand why she's here. And after the session, I understood that she had. Uh, the relationship with our daughter.

She didn't see her anymore since one year. And, um, they had a big argument one year ago. And after one year, they, they didn't talk to each other anymore. They didn't see each other anymore. And, uh, we did that session and it was really peaceful by the end. I was like, Oh. Okay, that's fine. It's gone. I'm, I'm okay now with her and I said, okay, now we finished the session. So please call me on, I mean, we've tried everything that we could for your sleep.

So call me if you need me again, and she called me seven months. And she told me, okay, that's surprising. Uh, I, I needed to see, to see you. So just to tell you things first, my sleep is well after I was last session. My sleep is good. And second, uh, I wanted to get, you know, that, uh, my daughter called me right after I was session. I, she didn't even know where I was living.

Uh, we had no relation anymore, so she couldn't find me, but she, she truly wanted to reconnect with me and I don't understand that and I'm like, wow, that's powerful and since this moment, it's been really interesting because I've, I've experienced that many times. I. Again, we are going on the woo side, but I think we are connected in different ways that what we think, you know, it's not only about the thing, the talking, it's not only about the, the, the material thing that we have.

We have this, uh, this little things that we, we, we think that we are connected to each other. Like for example, Oh, I think about this person. Oh, that's so funny. I get the SMS from this person at this moment. You know, what am I saying? That is that. We can't deny that there are things that we feel and experience that are not material. And because we don't want to see that, because we don't have any explanation, we fear that.

And instead of being just curious and just aware that something exists, we prefer to be like, oh, it doesn't exist because we can't see it. It doesn't exist because we can't explain it. And we're like, yeah, but what if? What if we needed to be aware of this and what if we needed to take it in consideration to navigate through this experience of life, you know?

So. I think extreme sports have helped us a lot because, you know, it's like, you know, you, you, you experience, uh, a lot of things with death and life. You ex, you explore this, uh, question a lot. You explore the question of being fully present. You explore the, the question of how, uh, how should I use the data? How should I manage my emotion?

And as I think it's a spiritual journey, actually, you know, for me, it's like, if I, if I went back to BASE jumping after five years of stopping, it was because I think it gives, uh, uh, it helps me to navigate through my purpose of life, like exploring and being curious. And yeah, I think, uh, I think it's something that is really. Really intense, you know? And, um, yeah, that's a good way to explore those, uh, those topics. Wow. That's a lot to take on board. Maybe that's a bit too much.

No, no, not at all. It's just, um, you know, like I'm supposed to be thinking about the next question, but I'm like, just trying to take in on everything you just said. And, um, You know, I have, um, I have, uh, helped a lot of, uh, BASE jumpers and, uh, skydivers. And, uh, this is funny because I'm in this position very weird because I'm also their friend or the, or the hypnotherapist.

And I truly do the, the, the difference between two, I use techniques and I don't judge people when they have, uh, they need to express themselves. I mean, you all, we all have something inside and we just need to express it. And in our, um, community, that's cool because we can express it. But in general. We are not educated to really deal with emotions. It's either something we are not comfortable with or we don't know how to deal with.

You feel, Oh, you are the vulnerable one because you are weak because you have this emotion and I don't have it. Yeah. But that's, that's so weird because we just don't explore it like in a natural way and just take it as part of life and part of what.

We are, you know, and, um, in this position of knowing the people and knowing, um, and, and using the techniques to, to do my job, I have, um, I have this both side and sometimes it's so interesting because I see people struggling with something, but I don't know what it is. And from the moment we go into therapy, the whole thing, the whole picture makes sense. And after that you say, Oh, but I can't judge people much anymore. You know?

Uh, sometimes the ego have a lot of, uh, reason for existing. Sometimes the, the aggressivity has, has a lot of reason for existing. And I need to take that into consideration because if I react to this, I create a situation that is not healthy anymore. For example, if I'm with those, I remember this, uh, this friend and I was like, uh, aggressive to her.

And if I was more able to understand, um, how I built my own, uh, reaction, I would able, I would be able to deal with that better, you know, and, uh, Absolutely. We have a lot of really big personalities in our sports. Intense. Intense people and navigating those relationships can be pretty difficult.

Uh, you know, like someone with a. And for lack of a better term, a big ego, you know, you can meet that with resistance and, uh, it can be difficult to, you know, like you're, if you're new and you're asking somebody some questions or you're trying to get information and people are just shooting you down. Um, it can be, you know, it can be really difficult and off putting, you know, like a lot of, a lot of people don't even like skydiving because of that.

Yes. And, um, So it's interesting that you talk about it in that regard, because that could be another piece to help us with our success. I think so because sometimes we are triggered by people's reaction and so am I. I mean, I'm not out of it, of course, but I remember that in, when I do coaching in Wingsuit, I think it's a really important topic because sometimes I can see those reaction. People want to prove themselves. People want to prove me or Vincent something.

So they have reactions that are. Not, um, accurate, not accurate, but, uh, that are not, uh, uh, valuable for the moment, for example. Yeah. But look, I do that and that, and yeah, but you don't have to prove me anything. And if I want to untrigger, if I can say that, and the ego, the need for ego show show the ego show, I don't know how to explain that. I need to create a safe place around people.

I need to respect this because when there is this, uh, aggressivity or, um, uh, this, um, battle of ego that starts and everything, I don't think it helps the group, you know, and we know if I want to coach something as dangerous as wingsuit, I need to create a space in which people, Need to get, uh, uh, get over this need for ego show, you know? How would you say ego show in French? Uh, I would say, um, Le besoin de plaire. Okay, so the need to please somebody.

Yeah, the need to please somebody. Yeah, that's a, that's a good idea to just, uh, do something like, uh. Direct translation? Yes, I should try this. Yeah, that comes up a lot, right? Um, we want to impress our mentors. We want to prove our, our, our skills. You know, we spend a lot of time, you know, whether it be in the tunnel or at the drop zone or on the cliff or whatever, increasing our abilities. And, you know, we all have this desire to be hyper capable.

And, you know, progressing feels so good. And, um, I guess this goes back to the self awareness bit again, right? Like the more we understand what's going on with inside of ourselves, the more true we can be to that, what is actually making us happy instead of falling into this ego show, like you said. Maybe the word is not the best, of course, but you know, it's like, um, when you.

When you coach a group and you are able to see that in a person, for me, it has been a really important tool to, to use, uh, because, uh, I could deal with that better. Before I was like, Oh, but he's so annoying. This person is so annoying and it's create such a bad vibe in my group. But if this person feels safe. And if this person understands truly inside that it doesn't, it doesn't have, or she doesn't have to, to do too much to impress the others, it helps a lot the group itself.

And it, uh, it increased the safety also. So it might. Sound a bit weird what I'm explaining, but at the same time, it also make, um, uh, it's also related to safety because our reaction when we overreact or when we, uh, we don't know how to sell the, to set the boundaries properly. It makes it a bit confusing and the vibe is, uh, escaping what we want. And, and sometimes people is start to battle to have the best, uh, what. I don't know, to win this battle.

And, um, and I think it's, uh, it's a danger and especially in wingsuit. So I don't want the people to, you know, I value a lot when, when we do a group of people in the sky, I value a lot the fact that, Oh, but you took the right decision by took it the safe decision. And I want to value this more and the, and nobody has to, to, to enter the battle. And so I think it, uh, it helps for the safety also to be aware of those patterns, you know, of those reactions.

So I think it's, it's also nice to understand that because it helps us also to empathize more with people when they are reacting weirdly. Uh, not to say, Oh, everybody's nice. Everybody's cool. Not really, but everybody has a reason to react the way they do. And if we understand better the reason, or if we take that in consideration, we have a better, um, a better control of the situation. I can't say it's a hundred percent like that, but I can say sometimes it helps a lot.

And what you're saying isn't that people shouldn't get radical or do amazing things that could potentially be dangerous. It's just the approach, right? They shouldn't be like this, uh, out of whack and unbalanced approach where you're trying to force your way into someone's approval. Right. Do you have any examples in your personal experience of people who are. Like really good. Yes. That you look up to that maybe do the exact opposite.

Yes. Um, Ian definitely, uh, once I was Yeah, he's kind of good. Yeah. kind of . Yeah, is, definitely is. But you know, I don't look up at him because of his level. I'm, at some point I can't even notice what, what is a good level is. Mastering master level. But for me, it's not what I look up, um, at him.

It's, um, when, when you are around him in, uh, in, uh, skydiving environment or, uh, BASE jumping environment, it doesn't, it doesn't put you in a situation when you have to show off to impress him because nothing that you will do will impress him nothing. So you only have to behave, you know, properly and. That's what I like about him because it's when we, we had this situation that's, yeah, there is a context.

We have a situation in which I, um, I, uh, I had, uh, well, I had a situation in which I landed and I forced myself to jump. Not I forced, but I, I went through a process that was intense emotionally and it was, uh, it was at the landing and, uh, it was like, why didn't you tell this person that you should have done this or this or this. Why didn't you, why didn't you listen to yourself? And I was like, Oh, um, I didn't dare to. And he was like, no, now you should, that's your life.

You should do that. And he was absolutely not talking about the BASE jumping stuff, the techniques or whatever it was talking about. a behavior, you know, and he was, uh, yeah, I don't know. It was comfortable talking to him because it was like, Oh, okay. Um, you are not worthy because you push yourself too much. You are not worthy because you are so skilled or whatever. You are worthy because you take care of yourself and you take care of the others. And this is a values.

much more than techniques that can give you the right relationship. You know what I mean? Absolutely. That's a great little nugget. It's like more about the approach rather than the, the outcome. Yeah. And I surround myself with this kind of people, because of Alex Simard, that's the same. I mean, it's one of the person I learned. The most from and, uh, another master level flyer. Yeah. I love this kind of people. No, but it's true though.

I mean, like when you're skilled at something and you have like, fuck, I don't know, I'm starting to sound woo here too, but like, there's like a, an imbalance of you trying to prove yourself. It's. immediately, um, apparent where when someone is at a, a, a master level with their skill, yes, they're not really, they don't care about, you know, proving themselves anymore. It's a form of expression.

Yes. They're taking the sport to a form of expression and, um, And they're not worried about like, you know, okay, what is this transition? Am I going to lose any distance on this transition? Am I going to like, how's the rest of the group going to feel? If I make a mistake here or something like that? Of course, they're human. They make mistakes. Yeah, sure. Rarely, maybe.

But. But they don't value the people through this, you know, it's not a scale, uh, a scale or later, it's not a, um, uh, a way of a metric system, metrics again, this one, it's not, it's not a metric system of who you are. It doesn't give you the value of the person. And sometimes I'm with people who just like, Oh, okay, but how are we not going to jump together? Because. You know, they make me feel like I'm not good enough to follow them or whatever.

And sometimes I can totally understand that the project of the jump doesn't involve me, uh, and my skills. That's completely okay. Sometimes it's just like, Oh yeah, but you are not interesting enough. You know? Well, I don't see that much anymore because I don't have the situation in which it happened, but I've seen, I've seen that many times. And, uh, And I can still see that.

And I've seen some people coming to me in my camps and say, Oh, yeah, but, uh, you know, I'm just a baby, uh, in, in skydiving. And, uh, you know, I can't say that because I'm not a good skydiver. I'm like, What the fuck? We don't care about what kind of skydiver you are. You are a human. You have your right to express yourself, to say this and this and this. And your, your advice or your, uh, opinion is valuable. So I need to understand you.

I mean, I don't, I don't really care about, uh, your level in skydiving. It's not relevant to, to express yourself or not. You know, it's not like, of course, if you talk about techniques, it is, but it's, it's It's not like, Oh, okay, I'm not an interesting person because I'm not a good, I'm not good at skydiving, you know? And I've seen that many times. And I, when I see people doing that, acting like that, I'm like, yeah, please stop doing that.

You know, it's like, don't think that because you're not an experienced skydiver means that you are not valuable or something, you know? So Our way to create ladders of, uh, value around our technical level is completely stupid, if not completely irrelevant to me.

And, um, I try to break that when I'm with my, uh, with my students, because I don't, I'm, I'm creating groups in which, uh, now recently, because I didn't think of that before, in which the, the more experienced people find pleasure in, uh, Jumping with less experienced people so they can learn from each other.

And I want to create those situations so they can, uh, I did that like recently when we were doing a camp in Senegal, because I want to break this idea of, uh, this, this helps you to value if you are a good person or not, because you are a good skydiver or not, you know. There's definitely a level of hierarchy in skydiving. There's a system of hierarchy in skydiving. But I mean, we can't deny it. Like the funnest jumps are with the really good people.

And the better you are, the funner the jumps get. So, yes, you know, I can, I see what you're saying and that's really nice and I've had some amazing jumps with, you know, intermediate, uh, wingsuit pilots and skydiving environment, but you know, it's because they've served as a BASE and I've been able to do, you know, transitions and carving around them and There's a way to incorporate them into really fun skydives. Um, but it is also when we land, all that stuff is over, you know what I mean?

Like all that hierarchy stuff should be over. Like, yes, yes, exactly. No, but I understand the need that we have to jump with people that will, uh, put you in a. That we push your level to grow. I mean, we all want to improve. We all want to develop our skills. That's, that's part of the game, you know, that's part of the fun of it. So of course we need to create a situation in which this can exist, you know? So of course we need to, to create groups in which we can, uh, put our level higher.

But, um. But it's more about, uh, after we land it, it's more about, okay, um, we share a moment. There is no, uh, there is the value of a people is not supposed to be related to the, the skills they have because a skill is just something that you train, you know? So I think the value is important. And, uh, uh, if we If we are aware of this kind of dynamic, we can also change the vibe to have less, um, less people, uh, pushing the limits, you know what I mean?

I don't want people to push the limit just because they need to prove something to the others or to themselves or to me, you know? So that's why I, I think it's interesting to just understand or just being aware of the dynamic that is playing in the group, you know, because of those things that are invisible, but are. Still there, you know, Marine, thank you so much for this conversation. Uh, there's a lot to unpack here. Uh, definitely a different vibe to this episode.

Uh, so thank you for, uh, for this. And if people really liked what you were talking about today and want to get in touch with you, um, maybe for more information about hypnosis or schedule a session with you, how can they do that? Um, They can even talk to me through Instagram, Marine Discourse, or, um, yeah, they can reach me there or on my website, marinediscourse. com. Okay. That's it. Very easy. Great. I'll, uh, put those links in the show notes and thank you for an amazing day.

Thanks for a nice jump and thank you for this fantastic conversation. Thank you for the challenge and thank you for the awesome day also. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any thoughts about what you've just heard, please don't hesitate to hit us up. A big shout out to Mark Stockwell, our sound mixer and co producer. We love you, man. If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, please visit exitpointpodcast. com. See you on the next one.