Hello, friends. You're listening to exit point a podcast about the advancement of base jumping and an exploration of its culture. I'm Laurent frat, producer and co-host. If you're enjoying this contest, please visit our buy me a coffee Link in the description and give us a review wherever you listen to podcast in this episode. I speak with Steph Davis stuff is one of the most accomplished free solo climbers in the world and has a long and consistent base career.
She has a unique background, including being a dedicated pianist building a master's degree in literature. While attending law school, she decided to drop about pursue climate full-time, as never look back. She is someone who has inspired me personally with her approach to risk management and how she dedicates herself to her passions with that, let's get step on the track.
You do a lot of public speaking and podcast and you know, that, I think that's part of what being a professional athlete, is these days. Is there something that you, I mean, is there a like these common questions and topics that you cover? When you do talks like this? Well, I think what's really cool about your podcast? And also like The Changing Times, is the fact that we are both base jumpers talking to each other in a podcast format, like how amazing is that?
That never would have happened, right? Previous was like broadcast to a broader audience and now with the technology we have this ability to like could do a focus cast, right-to-work ever hitting on a much smaller audience, but it's maybe with a little bit more Precision to write. Well, the fact that we can talk on a different level is really cool because usually you spend all your time.
Making sure you talk in a way that people can understand because obviously they're not in that Sport and so you can't just talk like, you know, regular based on a regular climber or whatever it is. So this is really cool because you are doing a professional podcast that's reaching a pretty broad audience which is why you're doing it. But yet here we are we're a were talking to Jumpers like that's very unique and And I don't think.
Yeah, I think even when I have done, Well, I think it's changing a little bit of climbing. Okay, I just did a podcast with alpinist and obviously, that is for climbers, you know, where climbers talking that was really, really cool cuz you're not constantly just backing yourself up and making sure that you define every word you say and things like that. So, yeah, it's definitely Changing Times. Pretty cool that I enjoy that podcast in general.
And I noticed one of the things about The Alchemist podcast that has stuck with me was how they asked you about or you guys spoke about how everyone always ask you like, what's next, what's next? And you could have covered your that you're not like Project or novelty focused that you're on more of a routine. Did I summarize that accurately? Or what, what would it with the gist of it was for me?
Or what I took away from that, was that You're not really looking for a whole lot of novelty, you're not trying to to do anyting new. You're not trying to It'll be like this next headline in in climbing, or or base jumping. Maybe I have this totally wrong. Do you, can you tell me more about this? It's not that I don't do new things and don't want to do anything, that's that. It's that bad. It's just all part of the flow, you know.
So sometimes new things are happening, sometimes they're not happening. That's just not really. I guess that's not really where my mind is. My mind is moron a life of doing these things and then threw out that life you know obviously there's a ton of time when your training or or being currents or you know whatever it is. It's like it's just your life that's what you do. And then at certain moments, this inspiration comes for something. That inspiration comes for another thing.
Having the flexibility that availability and being in position to do those things. As I think, I've always kind of been my Approach versus like, okay, I'm going to put this thing on the calendar for 2025 and then it's all about that. Like, Not really how I I roll. So that's what I was trying to communicate. That's something that has been consistent throughout your professional career in general.
Or is that something that you sort of settled into It's always been like that and I think that it doesn't always get seen that way because like I say that there are certain times when this motivation strikes and then yes, it becomes about that and then if it's something that other people deem significant then not get seen and then it has this appearance of like a big project big project but it's really never been like that.
For me it's always been just really about I would say like positioning you know like making life in a position where that when a cool thing catches my eye for an opportunity comes up then that I'm it's possible to go and do that thing. And so, you know, there's a ton of unglamorous stuff that's happening all the time, but that's just never what people focus on, I guess. I mean understandably.
I'm training, you know, Chinese not glamorous and I guess mainly training but also just Creating a life that that allows for. Allows for that level of openness, I guess allowing yourself to be, open to inspiration, allowing yourself to perform at a certain level. Just just said to be, to be able to do things, you know. like I'm trying to figure out I guess I'm staying saying it in a weird way, but I'm just Will free sample.
Having a lot of freedom is a big part of it so it different times in my life that's looked different. When I was, you know, 25 Freedom looks like living in a car so that I didn't have any attachment or, you know, less financial problems stopping me from things. And, you know, now that looks different to, that looks the level of a beast ability is just different in terms of creating that type of freedom.
And sometimes the free pass to not be as much for a while like this whole last year, when he and I were building this house, we didn't have nearly as much freedom of time but the idea was to then put ourselves into a place again where there's more freedom. So a lot of it isn't just about dealing with the life stuff to have the ability to pursue the things when they come on. I can relate to that a lot. I think I need to emulate. You guys a little bit more in the the freedom side of things.
I mean, I'm definitely Alan and I are in a period of building, you know? And it feels really good and it's kind of like a A balancing act in a way of like, you know, preparing for the future and building and also enjoying the present moment. And I don't think I always get that right. But I'm doing my best. I think it's a process though, and I think that there's often a mistake, which is thinking that everything has to be all about all this Freedom, right? This second.
But then sometimes when you're living like that, if you haven't put the things in place and created something different for where you look to be, then you'll find yourself with no Freedom, right? So it's like, In a building phase, you always feel like a man but if I done like, it's all gone and I'm sure that's not true. It's because you're thinking more long- term and and you got to do that.
Speaking of a building and, you know, someone when you're over your building is usually other people involved. And I think that, by the way, I'm inspired is giving me a light at the end of the tunnel feel better, though. I'm actually pretty good right now. Like next week I'm I'm going to Lauterbrunnen for a couple of days and then I have like I think almost a week later I'm going to Spain for some skydiving and and then I have like sometime in the tunnel and Sweden plan.
So and then so yeah, I have like a lot of cool things coming up and trying to find my wingsuit better and better every year. And those are those are good Stepping Stones to get there. That's awesome doing stuff. Come on. When was the last time? I'm sorry. I totally. I totally interrupted you. What up? What up when was the last time that I saw you guys? And that was 16 or 17 at 6, it was 16 or 1 7. What was it? Yeah. Because I was it where you guys riding lifts and jumping legally?
Well I remember we cuz we went to Europe in 2018 that's when we went to the wingsuit tunnel. Sweden, did we see you? Then cuz we were definitely I forget what else we doing cuz I was like right before it was accident and then everything got weird. Most people don't come here anymore like before when there was the lifts you know, people in 2018 close at 18 or 19 so we probably didn't what if we do it's not funny. I can't even remember the so bad.
I guess we didn't come at 18 for the last time we would have seen you would have been Yeah, because we're I remember now we jumped with you. You and Ian jumped on you at the end jump provide and I got like so upset because I didn't know where you landed right. And I'm told and yeah that was not cool. That's not no. No that yeah I remember that. That was whenever that was which was definitely before 818: cuz prevent was open. That's the last time we saw you.
you know, the kind of reminds me of something like anger. I'm trying to be serious here reminds me. Honestly, I've been working on myself, like doing some therapy and these conversations of inspired me to or actually inspire me a lot of stuff to the top. And I've been examining the fat on the top of this. Milkshake. And anger was like something that always with it was like a go to a motion for me, you know, when I was scared and, Is that do you have a go to a motion?
Like when when things go wrong like, is there one that feels the easiest to slip into and, you know, maybe like, let me make this a little bit more clear like When you hear about people having accidents, you know, maybe not like within your like small Entourage or someone who's very close to you, is there a particular emotion that seems to be the most common that rises inside of you? No. I agree interviewee.
Sorry if it's not if you don't have it because I often have frustration and anger and you do the same just thinking that you know you do. Your companion is not safe but if there's nothing there there's nothing there. It's kind of mean it's weird. When you, at least we've had a bunch this year in Moab of losing people and even some closer than others to me and Yeah, you know, it's really it's it takes a while. It takes awhile for me to understand I guess emotionally.
if the person is gone, So it takes a moment to 24 that to that realization to sink in. Yeah. And for a while I wondered am I just like numb to things because of that because you know this been going on for a long time. Between climbing, of course was climbing, before I ever got into jumping, I've been having friends died for a long time and for a while I saw it and I just like numb and I don't don't feel it right away, but then obviously with Mario died immediately.
So it's it's not that it's I think it's that. I think the stat with such a big floating community of friends like, for example, you and I don't even know when we saw each other last time and now we are unraveling it's been like years. So I think how it is for me is I have a lot of friends that I just don't see very often on a daily basis.
And so when somebody dies, like, you don't really feel it because at first nothing's different in terms of you and that person it's like oh, you know, I haven't seen her for a couple years and then now I'm told I won't see her again, but I don't feel it yet and it takes a while to understand that. Yeah, that's I feel like that too often times. Like we've had friends die, and they mean, a lot, like, in the moment and like, you know, we often don't know their families.
Or, we don't know a big part of their other part of their life, like, the day-to -day stuff, you know, we know them in this sort of Adventure scenario. And if yeah, it's a little bit different. Do you? This is like think that making me think about Community what do you think about the the bass Community? Like what sort of images and thoughts? Is that a vote for you? How many base jumpers are? We like between five and six thousand? Something like that right there.
Doctors always ask that, and I never know the answer. I listen to your podcast with Robbie, and you guys were talking about that and Robbie was saying that maybe it's not changing that much, because a lot of people come in and out, see, I've always been a little bit curious about that too. On some level, I guess it definitely feels like Like what he said makes sense because there are people you sort of known for a long, long time and then sometimes especially in.
Moab I'm sure the same for you where you are. It's a little confusing cuz some yours, there's all these people and you're like, wow, I don't know anybody really? And it used to be that you always did. So I guess it sort of feels like it's growing but but I'm not sure. I don't know. Those sort of numbers, I feel like you would have your finger on the pulse a little bit more than Robbie does or that I do.
Because, you know, like the kind of jumping that we do is sort of, you know, I mean he obviously has an idea of sales numbers and stuff with the suits but like it's sort of isolated. The, the jumping that we do and you know, you go to Tombstone, you do on a Wednesday. And I would think that you may like, have you seen more people there? Do you notice that there's more more jumpers? Moab is attracts more beginner ish type jumpers than that you know, like verandas.
It feels seasonal still it's just more. So like you know you know Turkey buggy when Jimmy and Marty would have dinner. That was Turkey. Pokey like six of us, you know. I'm so now the turkey Boogie is like a giant raven so it's kind of more but it's no, I I kind of tend to just you know, I do a lot of jumping by myself with Ian couple, a couple people that I like to to go jumping with, but I guess I kind of don't, I kind of stay away from like, the more crowded aspects of it.
And so, it's certain times of year. I just, you know, just kind of do my own thing. Why, why would you say that? I mean I am sort of similar in the way like I'll like the other day I went to Donna Crowell for like the first time in like 8 years and I found myself in a van with like nine other people. And I just got nervous, right? Like I'm a pretty empathetic person and there was some newer jumpers and I was just like, you know, how is everyone going to be?
Okay. Yeah, you know, I kind of go through this. Like I can't really check out of the idea of like checking in on people and making sure that everyone say I'm not going to be part of something that's going to be a disaster. Is that how you feel? Partly that, yes, you know, having been around for enough accidents and things. It's like, you know, how it goes down when somebody gets hurt or dies like, you're in it.
And so you have to be pretty sure that you want that or or more more open to that possibility. That's one thing. And then on the other thing, I mean, really one reason, I do Jump by myself a lot in a, with the caveat that there are things precautions. I take to mitigate that cuz obviously, it's a high-risk decision but but there's a lot of Just Energy when there's more people.
So even if all the people are my friends, it's very selective for me that all want to be in a large group, regardless of who the people are, it could be a large group of people. I really like and Noel and it's a different energy. and so, It's just hard to when there's a lot of energy, it's just it's a much harder for me to listen. And so, At any rate, I could be great energy. It's just harder for me to listen.
And so I have to always kind of I just something I think about and that's part of dumping for me, is listening. So, and that's not to say, I don't sometimes like to be with friends, like, sometimes it's super nice and I don't dislike it. It's just that, that's just one thing that's different. What are you listening to? Well, primarily conditions first is the first thing and then cuz, you know here, especially I'm pretty picky about wind in Moab, but the slider off jumping.
I'm very picky about the wind. So I like to spend time at the top and if there's anything to listen to and I'm just really make real decisions about it. And so, yes, that's just, like, as simple physically as hearing wind or not. It's it's only more of a thing if there's a little wind, right?
And then you're trying to make decisions about that and then but then just also like, I feel very at articulate, so they both were talking about things that are that are that way more like the feeling also like. So a lot of that is going to be with the wind and the outside conditions, but especially in jobs that are like new for me or places that are new for me. Like I just need to kind of feel. The ceiling. And then and then there's the that likes it interior stuff like how I am feeling.
And so you know if you're if you're talking to somebody then it's a totally different thing and that could be fine. But then when you start multiplying that and then there's, you know, three people and then you're all talking that starts to be a lot more, like four people just starts to be a lot and then I can't listen as well.
Your someone that I think about the way that I see you, as someone that, like really appreciates a lot of focus, you know, listening to you talk in person and then listening to interviews that you've done and things that, you know, interviews that you've done that are on written form. There's a lot of talk about your days, you know, studying piano. I said Suzuki as well by the way. and, Do you think that that drive for Focus?
I mean because when were base jumping there's really no you know except for like it were talking about here at the exit point where you may be distracted by a friend who's talking or or whatever. I'll just social stuff that comes along with that. That up a something that's really like, there's no question that you're going to be focused. Like, you know, you can give geared up, you leave the cliff and it's 100% Focus.
You never like, I mean, I've never experienced it where I'm only like you know, let us 75. It's like you're in it 100% And I'm wondering is that something that drives you to continue the jump? Or is there something that stands out in particular that you could put your finger on that drives you to to continue to jump? Definitely the focus is. I think what's so appealing? Alright, well I guess there's a lot of feeling, right? But but With any sport. That's what is, I think pulls me in the most.
And, you know, I get that through climbing, especially certain types of climbing, definitely through jumping. And I think that's a huge part of it. I think that's for all sports, right? I mean no matter what you like doing, that's the like people who are really into false. You have to be super focused. I just think as humans. Like, that's our.
That is our greatest strength and the more we can Put ourselves in that place and really prioritize that state of being especially now, I mean, don't you feel? Like now it's even harder so you feel like just everything is so connected and digital communication, it just seems like so hard now compared to how it used to feel. So like I'm like exposed to this fire hose of information when I go to work.
And then what I've noticed is that like if unless I ride my bike to and from work that I don't have is really like weird grayzone we're like I just have to like pull away from the phone and physically put it away from me or like I have this, like reoccurring desire to like, look back at that stream, you know, whether it be online with the Social Media stuff, which is also part of the work that I do or like the news items that keep coming up and it's it's a real like it feels like
pulling a suction cup off of a window sometimes. And yeah, I mean, I remember we used to have to, I would like to take rest days climbing and go to the pay phone to make my phone calls. I know I did, and you had calling cards. And yeah, and like, I would write people postcards to, like, how friends, because it's like we're laughing, right? But that's a whole different. It's like the opposite of what we're now in. So it's not a big deal. And I think that the things that Where we can go into that.
Place of focus, we need that so badly or we're all going to go crazy. I feel like I'm a lot of times in my work week or like my life will be, you know, moments like punctuated by really nice jumps. Were, you know that mean that's just my choice of of of getting that focus and in having a look at cleaning, the slate in the way and, you know, like, Ellen and I will joke about it. Like, you know, if we had goes too long without having that you get your ID and that's definitely a driver for me.
But then there's also like, Like, I hate to admit this, but like, I feel like there's a bit of my self-esteem that's attached to Jumping, you know, like I see myself as someone who jumps, I really like the hyper capability of it. Like I am somebody who can go like, you know, charge up a mountain and jump off and fly away, you know, like, that's something that I feel like my chest is, like possible up a little bit, you know.
Like I feel like reinvigorated as someone that like what I just said and I'm wondering, do you have something similar to that? Do you feel like a Rejuvenation of hyper capability when you're doing these things? Or is there any other thing that caused sticks out to you that like drives you to continue the base? Jump? And I'm asking you this because I feel like you're one of like, the most resilient people.
I mean, there's some people out there that are extremely resilient with work, but, you know, you come back from significant loss and very challenging hardship and I'm sure it a certain point. You were wondering like, it might getting more than, then what it's taken. So I feel like you may have Some insight into what it is. It actually drives you to continue to keep doing it or or is it simple to you? That that's, this is what you do. Well, I guess.
Okay. So just So I've been climbing for like, over 30 years now, which is kind of crazy. So jumping is newer for me, I've been shopping for 15 years. So by the time I started jumping, I'd sort of live this life of. I'm kind of what you talked about in some ways. It's almost like your whole identity is in this sport. That's also very much about a way of life. And you know what? Kind of like this is how I see myself in a way.
Not just that, I do the activity and And then when I started jumping, it was really interesting because then jumping is also a thing like that I guess, right? And so for me, I've always identified like my whole adult life as a climber and then entered a different world where it's like 1 climber. But now I do this jumping thing and then overtime was like I guess I'm a jumper too, but It's funny cuz I would ya now. I'm just like, I don't know, I guess I and I and I really like trail running.
Seriously, I don't know. I almost feel it more as like, maybe not so much this sense of identity attached to these things, as maybe more, the fact that that it's almost like such a part of It's just a part of life in a way, I know that.
it's always a strange question to me like because okay, when I got when I've been shopping for several years, and Just had like some pretty big losses, and then, as we talked about, you know, part of what I do for a living in a way is talking to people and you're talking about these things and people would say, oh well, are you still going to jump now?
And it was always just like a funny question to me because I was like, well, it appears that you think that I've only been having losing people in my life because I jumped but it's been going on for a lot longer than that and then, It's not always just doing your sport, right? It's like the fact that all kinds of stuff happens. And so I guess I never really Dinosaurs never really thought of it that way, as like of I stop doing sports than like bad things won't happen.
This is not really like that but but but yeah, it's a lot of it. I think, you know, you just kind of go on through life and and there's certain things that that really stick, that really dry, you know, climbing, stop for me. I can't really imagine that climbing. and I'm And then jumping seems to be that for me, I mean, it's been 15 years. We'll see what happens as we go forward. I mean, you do things, you never know, right?
You never know what happens in life but those seem to be my primarily deepest activities that I most love doing in life. So it's I feel like I got really excited to act and what I think about sometimes now lately is that, that we do know and that we will, in fact, at some point lose, you know, faculty of our strength and and move towards like more cerebral activities. And you know what, it does make me nervous.
Sometimes I think that like all of my Stoke and fun is sort of relies on my physical body and you know, we could probably be at a benefit to, I don't know, get more enjoyment out of reading books or you painting or, you know, playing piano or something like that. But there's something about being in the mountains. That's is so alluring. And so add so much color to my life. That I'm just going to take advantage of it. Now while I can, I guess.
I just think that you know, when you don't if you really care about something and it's driving you you know that and you're going to follow it and then who knows, you know, it's like you said at some point it's not driving you or it's not the ratio isn't there anymore of what it's bringing for you then you just do something else. I mean, it's pretty easy equation. This is a question that's like night.
I don't think really popular in my contemporary culture but I think the comparisons are really helpful and you know, we talked a little bit about climbing and jumping changing. Been definitely climbing is changed a lot, right? Like women, the amount of women participating is huge, like you're running entire clinics, that are just women. and, Do you see like in a general sort of sense like a difference, the way that women approach risk and and Men approach it? Good question.
I don't know if some of the tough one, right? Cuz it's people are just people on some level. I'm always a little bit reluctant to assign. Characteristics based on like a certain thing because you meet so many people and people are so different. It's kind of hard to say a whole group of people is one way or the other. I guess I will say I, I have always perception and this is just from Two years ago when I was a climbing guide that was, you know, how I made a living for a while.
And I would always crack up because, because we would have these forms with the with the guide company, for people to fill out, just to say about yourself a little bit to know what to expect. And I would always just laughed so much because the men would fill out the forms and give it asking it. What level do you climb very comfortable climbing? I don't always be like to be able to climb and then the women would be the opposite.
They would essentially the way they would climb and then they would, that'd be great to get in my mind. A little I guess presumption of how it was going to go down. This is years ago, so I don't know. I'm not sure if I will stay with my women's clinics, that is a pretty Common Thread. Is that that's it. Women feel like, hey, I want to gain more confidence in my skills and that's what I'm looking for.
And, you know, so many times they show up and they're doing great, but they have a perception that they need to improve a lot more. So maybe that's something that I could still say might be a general statement. Not sure about being confident, you know. I mean like us an element of masculinity or I guess that's what we're we're taught that is supposed to be, you know, is confident and capable and you know like maybe admitting that we're coming to get more confident, would be like a a loss.
But, you know, in reality, it would be a massive strength, right? Like, it would be like, hey look, I need more confidence with this, you know, can you help me? And it would only benefit you to be more confident overall. Well I don't know about that baby. The difference between men and women is that in this is of course a total generalization, right?
is that like just what you were talking about it, as soon as that that balance is out of line for you, that I feel like women are more in a position to be agile and move away from something when it's not fitting those needs or or, or feels out of all of balance, and it is less than of an impact on their identity and And that goes along with doing stupid things too. It's not like that.
Women don't do stupid things, but I see that men are more willing to do stupid things to fulfill a sense of identity. No comment. All right. Nuuvem. You've walked down from. Like I remember you, I don't know if it was like, I think there was like three Summers that go.
We spent that we shared some jumps and The first one being like the first summer, we moved to France and and then there was one of them where I think you walk down twice from jumps and I was really impressed by that and I think that was when you introduced me to your three flags rule or three strikes and I really sort of like Incorporated that has my own and so thank you for that. I've also talked about risk and in other areas that really resonated with me too.
And I'm wondering if you could share a little bit with me like that right now about that because you have categories where wrists or two Falls is that? Yeah, I do not think. So then can you tell me more about like these categories that you put risk in? And it's like almost like Risk on a spectrum shopping. And I feel really thankful that I came in to base as a longtime climber.
and a longtime free soloist, somebody who has climbed a lot of mountain Roots alone because I genuinely don't care if I'm a really long. Technical a disappointment or anything. You did it with just that Grace. What I just said I'm not intimidated, you know it even I'm not intimidated to go by myself even something new cuz I have his right. You go in a group people lead you and then maybe you don't know how to get down. Are you thinking it might be scary or?
And so I've always kind of felt like that was a very good foundation to come in to base jumping. Specially wingsuit base jumping knowing that I don't care what mountain. I went up, I will go back down by myself. It is totally fine, I don't care. That's, that's been really helpful for sure. This is pretty funny. So this one time I was in Yosemite, and I think it was like, it was a year after I had ACL surgery.
I was I think it was like 2010 and I I was just there by myself briefly and I was like I'm in Yosemite I be nice to jump Half Dome, right, cuz it's nice and this buddy of mine said that he would ground crew for me. And I had already kind of made the decision in Yosemite is to be very hot. In Yosemite used to be bad like Rover. Frank gambale got chased into the river and drowned like, you used to be really bad.
So it was a big deal having ground crew, and I have kind of ascertained that I think the safest way to jump there was to hike in the night and be doing like at dawn at first light and then you must have a ground crew just because of ranchers. And I have to leave at like 2 in the morning, I'll be there at first light. This buddy of mine is going to be ground crew and And I was up there at the exit point. It was perfect conditions. It was like, just the dark gray. It was about to be gone.
And I, I was like, literally in my wingsuit at the exit and I'm like, why can't I get ahold of him? And finally, he picks up his phone. The radio. And he's like stuff. I'm so sorry. There's been road construction all night outside of Yosemite West. And I'm like, in my car. I'm not there. And I was like, are you kidding me right now? Like, I literally just charged up half dome for like, the last 3 hours and I had relatively fresh ACL. So, I did not want to and it was perfect conditions.
Perfect conditions, it was like barely first light and you can land in this little area which is less visible all these things, right? And I was like I hate my life right now, but I'm going to walk down. I was like, I hate my life, I hate you. I hate, I hate everything. And I am taking off my wingsuit and I walking. I'm probably the only base jumper in the world that would have done that. And I was, but I was like, that's the rule.
Like, I don't jump in Yosemite about ground and it wasn't long after that the am. and got tazed, I know the cap cuz this is the time that the type of time it was. But man, I was so bitter. I was like, this is the stupidest place in the world. Like, I'm at this beautiful exit point in perfect conditions and I'm going to walk down, but it's the rule. I was like, you got rules. So it was thought that would hurt me. I was so unhappy about that, cuz it wasn't a real thing, right?
It was because of Rangers was like this, but I can, you know, Rescue in the forest with night vision. Goggles on, like, just getting his rocks off, like it's trying to catch you. Will a few months later, a man. Got tased after jumping on cap and I mean, shoot that's serious. Like, that's why I so Furious. I mean, really. It's not just like, I know, I know. So, so, yeah. I mean, obviously, it was the right decision, but I, I was so upset that I just always felt like that.
You have to have some strong rules and then you got to have those rules. Because in those moments, it's it's very, very difficult but if you have the rule, you're like, you know what, I hate everything right now, but this is the rule. That's admirable. I've agonized over walking down, I'm not anymore like, you know, like a obviously, I haven't gone through ACL surgery, like I don't think I would do that here. But even if my Meniscus hurts a little bit. But up.
I asked you a little bit more about risk in and how do you categorize it does, any of that come to mind? Like, as far as Can you speak on that? A little further? Yeah, I mean, I think well, it's sort of hard for talking about base jumping, right? So it's usually like the risk is pretty pretty. There's some level where the risk is pretty much the same all the time you can, you know, depending on what happens.
You can die or perhaps, worse than that, you can get very, very seriously hurt, or you can get very small hurt or you could get crazy lucky and nothing happens and, you know, some of that spaced on you somewhere, that's not based on you. It's it's it's very weird in that way, you know. So that's why I just try to be I don't know, I try to be really conservative. Relative to any risk in base jumping cuz I figure. Gosh, there's just so much that we can't control.
And the longer you job, the more you know that there's so much stuff that we don't control. So I kind of just I'm like, hey I got to do the best, I can to control all the stuff that is in my control because That's going to be more space for all the other stuff. yeah, like four years, I was always sort of like Jealous in a way, I guess.
That, some of the people that that practiced in a way that was like, more like surfing, you know, like this light- hearted like and carefree approach, and they were doing really cool things. And, you know, it's hard to sound not sound like an old cynical person when I say this, but like, Most of those people are dead now.
and, you know, like I really wish it could be something that was just Carefree like that but I've just, you know, it ready to be proven wrong and I'm ready for new innovation and, and a new training or whatever. It would take two to make it that way. But I'm not really, I don't, I don't have that. Jealousy anymore.
It is sort of like I look at that and I go like okay you know like enjoy it while it's there and you know hopefully they'll they'll come to a certain realization that it's not like that. Kind of Lucky in that when I first started base jumping again as a serious crime or professional climber, I got slightly hurt right off the bat on a base job. And I was like, woah, reality check, because of the climate, like if I sprained my finger it's was really big deal for me.
Right it severely impacts my ability to have a good time and do the stuff I want to do. And so I realized very quickly Just wow. You know any little thing that goes wrong I could sprained my ankle and then I'm out from climbing like as dumb as that would be right very dumb little nothing injury even that it's going to be a huge detriment. So I very quickly got the, the fear of God because of that. No, the okay, I will.
They're both very minor, but the first one I actually basically got cut on MiFi. I did fracture. My pelvis in the front but I didn't know it at the time. It was like real slight. It didn't stop me. It was just like a owl. And then later in a different x-ray, they were like, looks like you did this before, and I was like, oh, that makes sense.
Actually the real one actually referring to, but I did fracture my sacrum, but again, it was hairline, they don't do anything for it painful and there is a recovery. But it's not, you know, you're not in the cast, you're not but it is, it is painful and I was like, wow, you know, this could have gone a lot differently. And and as it is I am being stopped from doing things that I would do. And I at that's not that's not totally acceptable to me. It's not like what I want.
So, yeah, I just it just makes you realize how fast you can lose a lot of things. one of the things that sort of thrown around, you know and when talking about base jumping is, you know, there's no room for mistakes or like, What happens if you heard that right? Like there's no margin of error and do you find yourself in a position when you're talking to people about that like correcting them, that actually we do. Make mistakes pretty regularly. yeah, I mean I mean of course there is Yeah.
I mean, of course, there's a ton of margin, but the thing is just like, how do you deal with that margin, right? And that's what we're always working on. I would say, is trying to make that far into it a little bit. The margin out to Big, right? You become something like Commercial Air flight, right? Where it's just liked, not all the fun is gone, it's all reliable.
And but then there's also this compromise for us obviously because one of the I mean at least for me, one of the driving factors is fun and you know feeling speed and you know all of the the good feelings that come along with, you know, Landing after a nice flight. It's fun to be a main driver for you. All right. Yeah, I like fun. I'm a, I'm a fan of fun. That's what I'm saying. Like I don't, I don't like that. I'm not into it. I like stuff to be fun and and I like to do a good job.
Like that's that's fun for me having a great experience and doing a good job. So like for me or the perfect jump is is based on that. I executed everything that I wanted to do as well as I could have. And then it was a awesome experience. That's like my perfect jump. What I hate is I hate if I feel like I didn't do a good job or I have something was sketchy like that. I hate that. I think it's terrible like it's just ugly and I feel like Bad about myself and just bad.
That's why I like that's a big part of jumping so I can back to like I would rather not do a jump then go into something that I think is going to come out bad because it's just like ugly you know, I don't want to I don't want to have an ugly child but you want to and ideal level that you want to perform at and if you don't then it's not even worth it to you. Well, I just don't want to just, I don't want to have ugly.
I don't want to have ugly, jumps, and bad experiences and, and, you know, especially cuz I when I, when I every time I talk about jumping like, my brain is partly thinking slider off and partly thinking we see it, right? Cuz especially being in, Moab we're so much changing all the time. So like but you know, there's certain pieces of all those kinds of jobs, like there's pieces when you do a wingsuit base, jump of like what you need to do and how it needs to go.
And like, we just did, we actually just the two off? Super gorgeous this morning. That's why I pushed it back a little cuz I wasn't sure what was going to happen. A friend, offered us, a helicopter. So, we were likely, we can do two in a row. Yeah. and like it's so specific, you know, like from From Blake being at the edge and especially in Moab, right.
We're so obsessed with the starts and then there's like the whole start experience that you wanted to be like exactly especially year and then here very quickly through the actual flight, these parts of the spider off. There's like for me I'm just really into how the Free Fall feels on a slider off jump. And so like that's a really big deal for me and then like how the deployment feels and stuff.
So it's like there is this all these pieces that if I do something wrong in a little bit less than like Optimum, then I'm not going to enjoy that jump as much. You know, everybody has like a very characteristic body position when they leave the cliff. Like if you like Snapped a silhouette of everybody, I mean I think like you're you're jumping friends, you deal with point out who was who write it and you have a very specific style like by bringing your hands down by your sides.
Almost like you're getting ready to track away but when did you start doing that YouTube user? This something ever conscious in your mind like hey I'm going to jump off and let go head-first kind of thing. well, it was kind of funny it was, it was actually a long time ago because I remember I was kind of like, I was struggling with.
Champs we're alike because again, we mostly jumps ladder off here and then there's a couple places where it's like six to eight hundred feet and then you're like, should I go slider? Often take a two-second delay but then we're kind of wasting altitude, which we don't have a lot of slider of jumping in the area and then. So in those cases, you could be like, yeah, I'm going to go slider up and take a three-second delay, which, I mean, it is what it is, right?
There's like a whole even want to do that but and I was having a hard time with that because I was like, I don't know what my hands because I want to do the box man. But if you're up I want to be tracking and now I feel I'll just like us and then those friend of mine was like, well why don't you just Always jump with your hands back. That's what you doing it and I was like, that's true. Maybe it would be better just to, like, take all this mess out and he's like, anyways, that's for your pile.
It is so, wouldn't it be safer to have your hands immediately back or your pilot Tuesday? Like, waving your arms again? And I was like, you are correct. I just started doing it and then once you get used to it because, you know, again, if your wingsuiter, it's kind of a comfort position you want to have your arms back. That's how you go off in a wingsuit and then you're like, well. The pilot shoots right there. No, I don't want to be waving my hands all over the place. That's not very stable.
So, so it's, I think it's a little bit of a mess with your brain up first, cuz it's a change and, you know, we're taught that it's more stable to have your arms and box, man, and this, that and the other, but I don't know. I started doing it. I was like this feels great and it's like, I want to feel you want to dive into the air, instead of all like, And every work day and yes you do want your pilot's.
You like I never have concerns about like missing apology because my hands always there so long time ago and for me it just feels great. So it kind of started from this practical thing but is it's like what feels the best of me. I think it's worth mentioning to at. We went over this backtracking a little bit and I think it was the alpinist podcast cuz He went back and forth talking about wingsuiting and it's lighter off.
And one of the things that I was sort of like a hoping for more specific details about like the falconist podcast was that like I see wingsuit base jumping or something. That's a lot more complex in a way, a lot more, a lot more moments. I was like, should I even be throwing these terms of these people? So, and it's not that you didn't do a good job. It's that, it's just, it's really difficult to explain that to the general public, right? Like okay, do you have a single parachute system?
We're jumping off at Soaring apology. It comes out really quick. And there's this thing about the slider and then all of a sudden to sort of glazed over and and I'm not exactly sure where I'm going with this question.
But I did I just wanted to like tell you that I talked about that with Chris McNamara and I was like it there was an element of disappointment in the way and not that you weren't able to do it or that the podcast was never recovered but it's like that we're all sort of like thrown into the lake, this one giant pot of like Risk, you know? And I mean obviously the general public isn't going to be no keyed in on these small details but I think it's important for us like To to be aware of it.
Like that there are jumps that are a lot more intricate, that have a lot more complexity. And, you know, we talked a little bit about going or not going and jumping or walking down. Do you have any other rules that you have to sort of help you stay within, you know, a standard practices sort of mentality for your base jumping in and I'm talking wingsuiting now? Blake general rules director for wingsuiting like at all times. I mean I guess that's what rule is right? Yeah, yeah.
And it's so different, right? Because it's like, it's a different in Moab versus like, if you'd be at Brent, tell me about, I've never jumped. I'm not particularly drawn to the wingsuit Basin in my lab. I like, big flies, like I'm leaving jumped a little stuff here, you know, that's huge. Know I would do well with you. I was just, I was thinking like, I'm saying, I don't like to be in a big group of people when I jump the pain of thinking. You go to Brent. Oh, and here you are in the bus, right?
The only solution is, you have to wait until everyone's gone, but then there's all these other factors, like how do I get back down? If I'm all that stuff, it's just kind of every place has its own unique issues. I think that are just special to that place. And different in here in Moab. It's, yeah. I mean it is so short. I we just we just do it to the current.
Really, I'm very particular about jumping in Moab to, I mean, the first time I jumped in, Moab wingsuit wingsuit in the Moab was 2014 animal. And it just started basically. And we were all just like, what regular John Pierre for so long. It was just like, this is insane, right? So and that even though it's become something that you do, I am very definitely thinking about it. Like there's there's jumps here at a time like I'm not wingsuiting and it's become like a common thing.
Like people go do Dragon's Nest and I'm like, I'm not wingsuiting Dragon's Nest, but that's ridiculous, there's not enough and sure it works and it's working but that doesn't mean anything. It's like there's no margin you know, so there's only there's really just a couple things. I'll jump here cuz I I feel like the margin is just enough that it's still a margin in my opinion. But also its, you know, the conditions are way more particular.
In terms of like I mean the same as anywhere on some level but like just more choosy about the wind like okay you know I really need to have some headwind if I'm going to jump. This thing can't be a Tailwind, don't really want to cross through his. I'd rather have son on the slope and wants to lift it or just stuff like that. So I'm way more choosy then you would be if you went to something with this awesome, huge start and whatever that luxury comes with being local.
That a sight too, doesn't it? Well, I know if it's a luxury, though. I mean, for the stip, the things I'm talking about, in Moab like I don't I would just wouldn't jump here in the wrong conditions even if I had like a travel from France No, but I'm definitely excited to come back and then then do some slow down jumping but but yeah.
So I think that there's always certain that I guess there's a generally have certain rules that are going to apply all the time but then I think there's also stuff that's particular to a certain place that I really think about as well. But definitely you know just just let me know obvious stuff like the conditions have to be correct depending on what that means for the place and external conditions, internal conditions.
If there is like, you know, like we always talked about it, there's nothing that are wrong, then it's too much and just don't do it. That's it, it's like, if there's nothing's wrong, just don't do it. And it's easy to say, but can always feel hard in the moment like, oh, I'm on my big trip, and I spent all this money to be on the stripper hoe. This Holly loads going and it's like, you know, so special is never going to happen again. And I like how it's all going to happen.
Again, just if there's enough stuff, not right. Forget it. Like I do with the luxury I was talking about. I mean, maybe you don't see it as a luxury, but I feel like there's less pressure to get it done. You know, an air quotes because whatever, and it just doesn't seem as fleeting or is far away. And Yeah, that's a nice thing. They're like the longer. You jumped. Your like, there's always the coolest Jonathan. And then again, it's like what so I hiked 4 hours. That's fine for hours.
I don't care. It's good exercise. You know, it's like it's not like, You know, it's, there's always different ways to feel like pressure or committed and but then if you kind of step back, you're like, you know, Let it go. There's always another cool thing. Who inspires you at the beginning when you were first starting out, Sorry let me be more specific.
Not necessarily who inspired you to start it, but as you were getting involved like you look to some people for advice and an inspiration and so I'm curious where those people were. Oh, okay. Well, things are like a little, a tighter back. Then, in terms of like people doing it, the some cuz I started in either 2008 or 7. I forget something like that and and it was really just less people hadn't really I guess base jumping haven't really kind of done.
It's a little first boom yet and so I think I definitely I was saying I definitely was just felt close to this to Jimmy and Marta at that time. As far as like people to look, too. Particularly Marta. And this good friend of mine, Brendan McHugh was actually the one who taught me to skydive and, you know, Brandon's just good friend. Jay Epstein was a good buddy. And so I just kind of had this little things were just smaller than.
So I had this kind of a smaller Group that I knew and and they'd all been doing it for a long time. And so, that's kind of who I would look too, and and talk to you and just kind of, you know, learn how to pack, whatever that kind of thing. Looking for advice. There's been some recent accidents and and there is a lot of sacrifice that comes with it. And I'm wondering if you have any advice for people's I guess what I want to say is, how was your path recovery after losing Mario?
And do you have any advice for people that lose someone close to them? yeah, it's it's actually reference now cuz I'm Like I said, people there's been a few fatalities in Moab, and it's always like, the person left behind right. Usually the, the family significant others. It's I just know how hard that is.
Cuz Mario died was 2013 and And like I said, I mean, I'd I'd lost a lot of friends, so I thought I kind of knew something about that, but I did not know anything about it, when it's your closest in at your spouse. It's just a completely different level. I've experienced that I I, I was totally unprepared for, like, what? That would be like to live through that. And it's, you know, Annie and had a big accident in 2019 and could have been a fatality.
It's been definitely life-changing for him for us. And it's yeah it's it's it's been ever since Mario died. I always got my heart, just goes out to people when when there's a fatality and there is a spouse or a parent left behind because it's just so It's it's really really hard to live through it. It's really hard to look through it. So, what I try to do is I tried it. What? I try to tell people are in a customized people reach out to me. Sometimes I reach out to people in that position.
And I just try to tell them like you have to hang in there because it will get better, and it does not feel like it will ever get better. You would rather be dead right now and that makes sense. Totally get that. But don't don't do it. I ain't just hang in there because you can be happy and it takes a lot of time and that's just, it just takes time. Of time is daunting.
it is, it is and you have to, you have to really it's it's just, it's really, it's, it's really hard because I guess the other thing I was given very, very, very kind and loving and amazing advice from Karen Sacco who had been through this herself and it was someone that I reached out to you at the time because I knew that it was like, I don't know how to do this and And she at the times, cuz you're looking for, like, what can I do? And she told me a lot of things.
But one thing she told me was she said the best advice she was given was don't do any, any, any sort of chemical substances? And I took that to the extreme of. I didn't drink coffee, you know, no kind of any chemical substance, doesn't mean recreational versus pharmaceutical and means like nothing. And I was like, okay that's something I can do. No alcohol. No. No sleeping things. No caffeine eating perfectly healthy.
At the point where you can move going on walks, like things like that, like extreme health. And Just spacing everything, like immediately, not trying to push anything to the back because it's going to have to happen and you may as well just do it. So it's like I said my heart just goes out to people when when someone is lost for them because it's the hardest thing that a person will have to do is be the one, be the one that stayed.
It kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier, or at least, that's what I'm thinking about. Now is like, you know, even if you're not involved in, this is not like nothing bad happens. And my cousin who's licking a 35 died in his sleep. Last month, this month, month-and-a-half now and thank you. And, you know, one of the things that I fear the most is like just feeling like I missed out or that I didn't live the best life that I could. and, I think that's weird.
Sort of this feels worth it in a way is like our lives have this. Bishop. Extraordinary. It's hard to say no to someone who's just lost their significant other or their son or daughter or something like that that, you know, it makes sense to us. But in a way, it does, does does yours feel like it makes sense. You mean like my life this path of Adventure? And Doing the things that we do.
I mean, I don't free solo like you do or climb at an extremely high level, but I think that we share something, you know that we're searching for something similar. I think, what's interesting about life is that I think that.
it's just interesting, like, it's just so interesting how things change, you know, in life and how Like I think what's neat is like you get like this heading like you know, I don't know like like the Northstar, you know you're like allow and then you kind of like set off after it. But then like things kind of change along the way. I think that's the most interesting thing and so I think what I think, what's really cool about life is like being able to Livin Like a lot of different ways, I guess.
I don't know. I feel I feel really thankful for climbing in my life. I feel really thankful for jumping wingsuiting. I don't know, I guess there's a lot. I feel thankful for, so I I am definitely happy with the way my life has gone. I think it could have gone a lot of different ways. It can still go a lot of different ways. I guess that's a good thing, right? It's like, you just never know what's going to happen and I think it's more than anything.
I think that some how I feel life right now is like I literally have no idea what's going to happen, whatever. This is like kind of weird but I guess maybe it's better to think of it is like, really great stuff, knew what was going on. I was hoping to get the answers and fuck stuck in that, he sorry. What are you, what are you looking forward to these days? What are what are you thinking about? Are you going to are you guys looking forward to coming to your up again? One of these days?
I hope so. We've been talking about it. It's life has been really weird for like a because well you know you ain't got really hurt 2019. It was like 2 months after we got married and then he was just like, you know, for a year I basically was like just that's what we're doing for like pretty much all of 20 19 was just that. And then and then right when he was like, more, you know, doing better and more independent, I was like, I'm going to start going to church together. Go sit down.
I was like, really It's ready for it to be all fun again. And then and then right when covid was kind of, I don't know, different for people in different places, but for us really felt winding down and we had made the decision to build this house. A little over a year ago and all that stuff. And so we did that was really a mershon for like a good year and we're just kind of coming out of it that whole face and slime. Like cheese, life has been really weird for like 4 years.
I kind of really excited right now, just kind of like wake up and be like time for new life and I'm back to all do you know, a lot more freedom than there? Has been for some time actually. I mean, for sure we've been doing things. I mean, it's been a lot better obviously and You know. I've been doing a lot more things but we haven't gone to Europe for pretty much since 2018 and he was trying to talk about that. Like, you know, are we going to do?
We love 2 dislike transport, back to the valley for a minute or something like that. So so, yeah, right now, it's pretty fun cuz we're just sort of like picking yourselves up and shaking ourselves off and be like, oh my God, we're not building a house every day and then heading back into the flow of, you know, what, what do we feel like doing. So, that's why this morning. And I've been climbing a lot more and it's just been, it'll be really cool. I think to see what happens this year.
I'm running out of time. It's funny cuz like I'm I'm drinking wine. And you're you're you're more like just started your day with the two. Beautiful wingsuit jumps. What's 3? Sorry for keeping you up. So late. Thank you so much. Yeah. Say hi to Ellen. We hope you enjoy this episode. If you have any thoughts about what you just heard, please don't hesitate to hit us up a big shout out to Mark Stockwell or sound mixer and co-producer. We love you, man.
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