Workplace Sexual Harassment

she is well educated, well spoken. I just love having these type of guests because I feel like it's so empowering when we see other women, um that are strong and are empowering and educating and showing other women that we can be brave, we can be strong, not to be afraid. Today my guests wrote a book and it's called Staying in the Game, the Playbook, the Playbook for beating workplace sexual harassment. Welcome to the show, Adrian Lawrence, my love, how are you. I'm doing pretty good. Thank

you so much for having me. Of course, most definitely, first of all, I want to ask you what surely inspired you to like not just go through the experience and not be a victim per se, but be the voice and and do a book where women can feel inspired that and know that they're not by themselves in these type of situations. Well, it's you know, being an attorney, I knew the law in terms of sexual harassment, but it's completely different when you're actually in those situations and circumstances.

So when I went looking for help after finding myself in a workplace sexual harassment situation and I'm fearing losing my job, and I go looking to books for answers, all I was getting was essentially these memoirs from largely white women who I couldn't relate to that we're just telling me their story, and then legal books. And so I wanted a book out there that would actually tell me what to do practically, what can I do to keep my job, kind of serve my income, my economic independence,

and fight back against this. And so I ended up having to go out and write the book myself. This is so crazy because I feel like I personally have experienced it. Um. Like I said, I know many many women that have. But why do you feel that women are so afraid to be open and express and say this is really what's happening in my job or in my environment, whatever the case may be. In part because our society often will punish you for it. Uh, you know, as we women often still get the well, what were

you wearing? What did you do? As opposed to that person is in the wrong and you deserve better, And so our society is still evolving to not do this whole You're lucky to be here to women in the workplace, and so until a lot of women realize that, they're not going to speak out because we've internalized a lot of that oppression ourselves. But I think when you're a boss, you're a strong woman. You worked for what you've got, You've on to school, you've done everything you needed to do.

The last thing you want to be is in a situation where somebody's going to try to take that away from you simply because you're unwilling to, you know, play the sexual prize for them. Have you also heard this coming from the queer community or have you heard any cases which makes me, you know, curious when it comes to men as well, Yeah, big time. Um. In my book Staying in a Game, I address a lot of issues that impact the l g B, t q I plus community, uh, in part because when we look at

what sexual grassment is, it's really about subjugation. It's about the fact that you don't adhere to traditional gender norms, roles, and so the l g LGBTQ community, queer community tends to find themselves the most at the receiving end. Also because like a lot of racial minorities, UH, individuals of the queer community are essentially considered marginalized. So that will make you essentially put you in a position where people will see you as an easy target. And also the

aspect of that of being hyper sexualized. There are so many dynamics in our society that make it so that people are ultimately pushed out of the workplace or they're put in situations in which they have to make these difficult decisions between their economic independence and essentially their dignity, and that's not all right. Oh my god, I just loved I just love hearing your voice. First of all, like, not for nothing, can you guys go to my YouTube

channel exactly a Mata and check her out. She is so beautiful and I just love the way that she talks and she makes me feel so confident, Like I feel like if I were to be going into a situation right now and I haven't even read the book yet, I really need a copy right now because it's important for me to be educated, so like this, I can help out other fellow females that are in the workplace that need of my assistance. UM So, guys, most definitely go check out go check out her book because there

you can really get the whole four War one. So here's another thing too write, Like, I feel like employees don't know the difference you know between the sexual harassment, like like, oh, it's just a joke, you know, when they're trying to make them jokes that and you don't know the difference. You don't have to laugh or feel like did you just try me right now? How do you know the difference? When do you know how to

stop it? How do you stop it without feeling like damn, I shouldn't have said that that was too much, because you do, even if you're at your workplace or even if it's your boss, you need to have boundaries and let them know. Listen, I came here to work, I came here to get my you know, do what I gotta do, and here's my boundary them type of jokes. That's what that's what we ain't gone stip. So how do we know the difference between a joke and sexual harassment?

All right? So I like to say, there ain't no jokes when it comes to my oppression or subjugation. Like that might be a giggle for you, but it don't work for me. And so when it's a problem, you trust your instincts. How do you feel you have to listen to that still small voice inside. If it makes you uncomfortable, even for a hot minute, you got a problem. And the important part is you need to a bit in the bud immediately, because what that person is doing,

is you've noted, is they're testing your boundaries. They're pushing you a little further, They're seeing how far can I get. Because the thing that a lot of people forget is that workplace sexual harassment all that is is like gender traditional role based bullying. The person is essentially saying, in some way, you don't adhere to the traditional gender roles or norms, and so what I'm gonna do is try to put you in your place, try to get you

to play small. And so that's what that person is doing. They're feeding a little bit off of you feeling uncomfortable. And so the moment you feel uncomfortable, that is when you nip it in the bud. That's when you say what's up, because otherwise the person will continue to do it and it's just gonna get worse and worse and worse. It is not a one off, It is a behavior.

I think that sometimes a lot of women and a lot of men can be confused and not necessarily know exactly what sexual harassment is and just uh automatically assumed the sexual harassment is just a physical action, like, oh, they touched my butt, sexual harassment. Verbally their sexual harassment as well. Can you give us a couple of examples of what is considered sexual harassment? Al right, so you're absolutely right. Sexual harassment. You know, it's what they call

a misnomer. It really kind of misleads you because most people think it has to involve something sexual. That is not the case. It takes on a wide variety of different non sexual forms like hostile behavior, physical assaults, patronizing you, denying you information and access to its, sabotaging your work. Why the real kind of thing behind sexual harassment is the motive. What is the channels this person is using. And for example, there are three types of sexual harassment,

gender harassment, unwanted sexual attention, and sexual coersion. Gender harassment that's like sexist remarks, behavior, gender based bullying. Those are like you know, putting a porn in the office, having conversations about someone's you know, never region, teasing and those quote unquote jokes. And then that unwanted sexual attention that's that inappropriate, offensive sexual advances, sexual assaults, touching email, suggestive, uh,

like coming on to you physically. And then that sexual coercion that's that you know, kind of forcing someone to say, hey, if you want to keep your job, you know, maybe you'll give me a little ahead, or pressuring somebody for favors. And so the thing is a lot of people think it has to involve sex. It doesn't necessarily need to

involve something sexual. Someone may mistreat you and it's gender based, and it's because as a woman, maybe you're a little too assertive or a little too independent, little too confident. That would technically be considered sexual harassment. Because it's sex based harassment. You're being mistreated because maybe you don't confirm conform to those traditional gender roles. So we got to keep this in mind because so many people think they've

never experienced work play sexual harassment. And let me tell you, as long as someone is threatened by your very existence or how you run your game. You've been at the receiving end of it, or for some reason, maybe you don't fit those traditional gender roles. You're a dude out there who has a kid and goes on fraternity leave, and the buddies in the workplace, you know, decided to yuck, yuck, yuck and give you heat for it. That is sexual harassment.

You've got to know that these things are so much broader, not only because it impacts your legal rights in the event that you end up having to leave that workplace, but also because you need to know how to combat it.

That is so crazy. See, that's what I'm saying. A lot of people are just misinformed and don't know, like um, and then they're also afraid because I know in a lot of situations, I know a lot of people that are financially let's say they work for a big corporation or whatever, and they're like, yeah, I've been sexually assaulted or I've been sexually harassed by my boss or whatever, but I financially don't have you know, I don't have the money to get an atorney to fight this big

core operration. Or this person. You know, I might as well just stay quiet and not say anything, because what am I going to do in those cases? If you're financially um not necessarily prepared to get an attorney to fight for you, what should you do? How should you

go about it? All? Right? So that's also in part why I wrote my book because being an attorney, I can tell you essentially how to build your case and make your case, because the last thing you want is when you finally decide to stand up sue where you

want to do something about it. You didn't preserve any evidence, You have no documents, it's completely in the territory if he said, she said, So, my book tells you exactly what you need to do leading up so that you can get an attorney, because a lot of attorneys work on contingency fees, so that means you don't got to pay them nothing. They're just gonna take maybe a third

of whatever your recovery is. But you are best positioned to show up to an attorney if you are prepared, because again, you don't want to be in that he said, she said, territory. Where did you have it against them? How does it happened? Because a lot of times is that, he says, she say, or I'm gonna say it on the low ecod of my office real quick. You know what I'm saying, boom, whatever the case may be. And then how do you say unless you have a phone

and you're recording. But then I've heard a lot of times because this is all this all comes out of ignorance because we don't we don't know. Um, you know, Oh, you can't use the recording because that person didn't know that you were recording them or whatever. There's no cameras. How do I prove that you harassed me if nobody else is willing to testify or say anything at the workplace because anybody trying to cast that heat. Um, And

then you just feel like you're left alone. Yeah, girl, that is why I wrote my book, because I got all the tricks of the trade and all the ways in which you can do it to remove it from that, he said, She said, territory. There are ways to work

around it so that you are air tight. So if you've got to come back in a year, two years, whatever months, or even ten years, as we've seen a lot in this me Too movement, you will have documentation that's that really supports it substantiate what you are saying. And there are ways in which, uh, these people out here who are harassed, I call them harass holes. When these harass holes come at you, there are ways in

which you can get it documented. Uh. And my my thickest chapter in here, and the book isn't that long at all, and I keep it very you know, easy to understand and read. My biggest chapter is called Keeping Receipts, because that's what it's about, keeping them receipts, and how you can create receipts so you don't end up in that he said, she said, territory. It's all about knowing how to be prepared. And something I'll also mentioned on this where people might think that, um, oh, well, because

most people are kind of it's an arrogance. They think, oh, I'm not gonna be sexually harass believing you are. But also the great part about my book is that you can use any of these tactics and techniques, uh to address any kind of bias. If you're in the workplace and someone's acting racist or whatnot, you know how to keep receipts. Now, so that now I have a strong case in the event that I have to leave, because you have so many more options of of than just

suing like that, most people don't sue. What you can do, though, is get a lawyer and maybe you get a real good severance. You got a great review leaving, so they can't be out there slanner and your good name and all your hard work. Maybe how many people out there?

How many people is out there trying to get a review as the people are here first of all the pandemic, the people is out here trying to get these coins, So like you, nobody's try to be like, oh, you know what, I want to leave because you said you harazing whatever. Just give me a good review. No, no, no, no,

give me a review and give me them coins. Yea, yeah, but you don't want people out in the streets saying bad things about you, So if you get kind of that agreement in there so that they can't ruin your future when you're going to other jobs. But oh yeah, I get the coins to without a doubt. But having somebody who can negotiate and you can get a good

severance walk away that that's where it's at. But it all will depend on what do you have to offer because your word against their word, it ain't gonna hold up. So you have to be prepared to run. And also something that I think is really smart that my books teaches you as well, because men of color generally are accused of sexual harassment at higher rates, because men of color are generally subject to hyper sexualization and stereotypes associated

with uh sexual harassment. And thus when you suffer false accusations that are based on essentially racist notions, you got to be prepared as well. And so my book tells you how to be prepared so that you don't end up in a situation where maybe you get fired because you know, some some woman thought you were looking at her the wrong way, and then you have no recourse whatsoever, and that's following you the rest of your career. You

have to be prepared, especially minorities, Lain Morena. You know my black people, my Latino people, in indigenous people, all my minorities, not for nothing. Let me tell you something. Stop thinking this is a joke. And this goes for women as well. Let me tell you something, especially now that we're in where everybody's out about my bag. This is that whatever with all due respect, peace, and love to the universe. But we still live in a world

where race is still an issue. Right, So, if you have a boss that is Caucasian, for example, and you are black, dark skin, and you see them looking at you some type of way, or you already know the intention because you'll be knowing a lot of times we know what they're trying to do. You know when they're looking at you, but you're trying to act like, don't play with it. Do not play with it, because you

don't know how that story can end. It could be a very it could be a love fairy tale where you guys, oh, the employee and the boss ended up together and they live the happy ever. Okay, great, but the possibilities that's gonna happen. It ain't gonna happen all the time. And if you go out there and let's say you decide to date your boss, you decide today whoever it is that you know was flirting with you at your workplace or whatever, and things don't work out,

things can go south real quick. You end up in a space where now you feel they used me. No, they didn't necessarily used you. You chose to participate. Now you feel used or now you feel abused, or now you feel whatever type of way, just business and pleasure. I'm not a fan of mixing it. I don't think that you should. And that goes for everybody, especially we're all grown, we're adults. For those that are, you know better. Now here's something else that I do want to know.

So for those that still may not get it, when you say harassment at the workplace, what about if the harassment is happening outside of workplace, Like let's say you know, this is my coworker or whatever, we see each other outside in the supermarket, any other place. Do they can they still? Um? How does that work? Because I know that's like a very thin line, like we work together, but the harassment didn't necessarily happen at the workplace. Does

that still count? Okay? So what we want to do is separate legal conversation from kind of just behavioral sociological conversation. And so when we look just at sociology, yeah, workplace sexual harassment, that largely means that somebody in your professional world, who you know professionally is essentially trying to make you play small, minimizing you using gender traditional roles, sex based

something of that nature. And so even if maybe you're out and you run into a mentor and that mentor decides to, you know, give you a breast exam, that's still workplace sexual harassment. Yeah, because sometimes I've I've thought of those things has happened to me, like for example, or I don't know, I've been at a show or a concert or whatever and they've tried to holler at me, you know, popular words out here. Um. But then we see each other somewhere else is not necessarily in that

work space, and you're still harassing me. So I don't know if to consider this at the workplace. It's not at the workplace, but we work together, how does this work? Like, Yeah, you don't just think of it if you've got a professional relationship, because it's just like one of my colleagues hit me up through a Twitter, d M and coming on to me there. It's still the same because you know, especially now when you really think about it, because they're

are no real boundaries. Were not in traditional workspaces and offices and cubicles anymore. We are everywhere. We're virtual. So we have to expand that definition and realize that if you are in my professional sphere, and you maybe you are putting me down because I don't adhere to traditional gender norms, or you're trying to holla, then yeah, we got a problem. Hey, that's such a bad point that

you gave right now. I hadn't even thought about that, But that's so true now with everything that has happened, everybody's working from home. Um, you know, things have changed, but social media and these d M s and these emails and snapchats and all these fake accounts, that still counts. Guys, don't don't don't leave that out. That still counts as harassment. If they're slighting up in your d M, sending you freaky pictures, are asking for stuff or talking to you

in some type of way, that still counts. Um, well, is there anything else that you feel that people really need to know that I may be missing out because this conversation can go on and on. I mean, I have so many questions, so many things in my mind. But what are some of the top three things that you feel that people really need to know about harassment? When people need to know that it's not about sex,

it's not about sex. Drive you can get sex anywhere nowadays, you can get your sexual gratification on it has nothing to do with that. This is about power. This is about preserving traditional gender roles, about preserving that sense of power structure, male dominance. Who gets to call the shots, limit the opportunities for others. This is a form of bullying.

And you know, because when we really think about it, the fact is that your position in the workforce and what you do that will impact your economic power, and the more economic power you have it bolsters you in society, more things you can do. And the fact is that men have been the ones with the vast majority of economic power because they've been in the workforce, and thus

they could control our destinies. And so you have a lot of men out there or who will sexually harass women to push them out of the workforce sexually or ass other men who don't fit that traditional gender role

of what men traditionally should be. And they're doing that because they're trying to reinforce this traditional power structure that's kept men in power, and they cannot risk having essentially other men out there with just more equitable mindsets and who are treating all women fairly and actually you know, just doing right. And also the second thing I think people need to bear in mind is that, Um, you

know they know that. When I say they, I mean sociologist, scientists, people who study this know how to end sexual harassment your employer, your workplace. People know how to end it,

how to prevent it. It's completely preventable. The fact is that they're not doing anything maybe to fight it, because hey, we've got to remember that these companies, they're just small, little microcosms representations of the larger society, and our society uplifts white male patriarchy and so hey, it's one of the ways in which you can control, dominate, keep the power structures in place. So that's generally why it doesn't get addressed. But the good thing is and knowing that

there's a way you can fight it. You have all the answers, and that's what I did and putting them in my book. And I guess lastly, you know it's important to bear in mind. Again it's not I I gotta say this more than once. It's just not about sex. And generally when it comes to women, the individuals who

are targeted the most. Um, I list out the various things that trades you might have that make you more likely to be targeted, whether if you have um a boss mentality, Yeah, if you essentially, if you're confident, if you're assertive, if you're independent as a woman, that's like a tray out of things that essentially make you an easy target because these people want to put you in

your place. If you're in a traditionally male career area, line of work, if you happen to be book smart, uh, if you are a single lady, that can be a problem. It is true though, I can definitely imagine that obviously, if you have, you know, a boss energy, if you're well educated, if they feel intimidated by you, and all

these things can be reasons why they can be like you. Specifically, you know you're my target, but overall, don't think like, oh, well, I'm just like this simple nerdy that nobody's gonna come for me. You don't know that. You don't know that. That's why you need to be prepared in every single aspect. And the most important part from everything that I've heard amongst many you know good things, is to have your receipts.

You really need to have proof so it doesn't become he says, She's say, that's why you need to get her book. Where can they purchase your book? Um? Is this one of many to come? Are you gonna do like a part two? Perhaps? Yeah? Um, after this whole pandemic passes, that's for sure. It's been a day, but staying in the game. The Playbook for Beating Workplace Sexual Harassment. It's available everywhere books are sold. It's on sale at Amazon. I'm fortunate enough to have won three book awards. Uh,

it's you think you're gonna find it. It's very it's very chill. It's a lot chilling. Then I think a lot of people anticipated. And it's not one of those memoir books. Uh. It has really, you know, fun and interesting stories in it, but it's largely I just keep it straight. I'll let you know what the score is, and I tell you what you need to do and give you examples on how to do it. And you know, again,

it's a playbook, and I think it's essential. Well, I know it's essential for anybody in the workplace who really doesn't want to play small, who wants to actually rise, because the thing is, you're always going to find somebody who is intimidated by you. Most definitely, the most important thing to me. Ladies guys out there is be prepared no matter what. Be prepared. Don't wait till something happens to you in order for you to want to go get the book and then oh I need to read

about this now read it now. Be prepared now, because you never know when that situation can come, and if you weren't prepared, it might be too late. You may have not saved your See, you may not have known the way that you were supposed to react towards that situation. UM, be prepared now, don't wait till something happens. Don't be afraid find information. UM, don't feel like you're the only one, because you're not. There's so many people out there trying to help a lot of women and a lot of

men that are going through these situations. And the same thing happens for the queer community. I know that they go through it a lot as well, and they're afraid to use your voice because they already feel like the whole world is against them. They're gonna be judged. Uh, don't feel that way. With that being said, can you also give us your social media platform or where we can connect with you. We want to know more information or buy which you check you out? Yeah, I got

a lot to say. So I'm always on Twitter at Adrian law and then also Instagram at Adrian Lawrence and i am legal analysts for the Young Turks. So I am on the Rebel HQ channel which is located on YouTube and Facebook. Adrian, thank you so much for joining me today. This conversation was so important. I feel like I learned so much today and I can't wait to get my copy because I wants to read the book. I want to be prepared. Um, and guys go get your copy as well. Uh this we need to be prepared.

That's the word for this year. Be prepared. Don't wait, be prepared so when the opportunity comes or whatever the case may be, you're ready. Thank you everyone for joining me one more time as usual, remember to follow at exactly a Mata and Michael Duda podcast on Instagram and on Twitter. Thank you so much for all the love and support. Thank you for reading us. Uh five stars, I'm so grateful for that. You can also check out this podcast on the YouTube channel search exactly a Mata

and you're gonna find out all these amazing conversations. You can go over it and share with your friends as well. This has been a production of I Heart Radios Michael podcast Network. For more podcast from my Heart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite show. Thank you guys so much for joining me and I will see you guys next Thursday. Chow mm hm