Are We Wired for Monogamy?

interesting because these type of topics. Meg, I don't know I can connect to these topics because cheeter, cheeter, punkin eater, anything that has to do with monogamy and stuff like, you know, relationships. I like all those topics because I feel like we're consistently, especially in this generation, trying to figure out what exactly is love, what exactly is being in a relationship, what exactly is staying together? How much ship are supposed to put up with? What are you

supposed to let go? What? How does this work? Are you supposed to be like an open relationship because there's so many options thanks to technology. Should we be more loyal to each other? Are we still loyal to each other and we're open about being with other people. I don't know. This is confusing, this is hoo much for me. I don't know what to do. Anyways, today I am so grateful to bring an amazing guest. My guest today is a sex researcher. She's a speaker, a writer, and

her name is Dr Jena Mammon and Jonna. Where is this name from? I love it from Macedonia from you know, I like it? Well, you know what, I'm curious to know. What made you become a sex researcher. I thought that sexuality was the most fascinating topic I could possibly study, Like, couldn't think of something that would keep my interests for the rest of my life when I was deciding what PhD topic to choose, Obviously, does that make you a

little bit freaky? Is that what you're saying professionally? At least a little bit? Okay? Okay, it might be a bit more than a bit okay. Well, no, I was interested actually in if you want to call them freaky, the more sort of uncommon are unusual expressions of sexuality. That's what I went to study. I wanted to study non heterosexuality, so the people who are not completely straight or have at least some interest in other genders. I wanted to study casual sex, sex outside of the confines

of a long term romantic relationship. I wanted to study non monogamy, like these pairings and relationships that are not exclusive sexually or romantically. I wanted to study kink, so all of these things that are kind of on the most and all that freaky stuff, Yeah, the stuff that it's hush hush, but that are so much part of who we are, that makes us the humans that we are.

And what I was really curious about is how do people who have these I guess less acceptable, more stigmatized, sometimes less common, although not always, some of these things are not less common, Like our desire for non monogamy, that's a pretty common desire, but it's not an acceptable desire. And so my curiosity was always how do people who have these desires that are on the margins of what society says is okay? How do we navigate our lives? How do we get our sexual needs met while existing

in a society that says you shouldn't have those needs? Well, because we're well, because society basically tells us that we're we're supposed to be loyal to each other, and that loyalty means that it's supposed to be just you and me and me and you till the end of time. So basically, like, if you're in a relationship, you're only supposed to stake it to me for the next you know, sixty eight years, And we all know that's a damn lack. That is the damn Does watching porn count as cheating

for some people? That's something that everybody has to decide for themselves. There are so many of these behaviors that are kind of in the gray zone. And you ask on a survey, you ask a bunch of people, is watching porn cheating? And some people will say yes, and some people always will say no, and there is no one right answer, Like every single person in a relationship needs to decide whether their partner watching porn. Do you consider it to be cheating? For myself, no, absolutely not.

I watch I love watching porn with my partners. I love watching porn in my own I know they're watching porn on their own. We share videos that we like. I don't think I don't think watching porn is cheating. I think it's actually healthy to a certain extent. I'm gonna tell you why I feel the watching overdo it. You can definitely overdo you can overdo it. You can also by watching these porns, um create this like fat see this fake concept of what sex is supposed to be,

and that's not necessarily true. Let's when we watch these porns, let's also understand that they're getting paid for this one two. There's a whole camera crew in front of them. And have you ever been to a porn set and friends who are porn? But they haven't, they haven't the advertisement to my girls, shout out to Angelina Castro. She's my friend and at one point in time, a long time ago, she does porn, and she invited me to a set and I went and after I saw it is definitely

not what people think. I know that in the moment what you're horning, you're looking at and you're like, women put so much pressure on themselves trying to compete with these women that they see on these porns. Anyways, that's a whole different conversation. But what you said is true that watching porn can, especially if you don't have a lot of real life experience of what real sex looks like what real human bodies look like and can do.

You can, especially if you watch a lot of porn, then you can definitely build a fantasy and instead of expectations that can be not really be and it can really humanize you from your partner. Every relationship has their standards or limits, and they decide what's accepted and what is not right. What I will say, though, is you

can choose to be monogamous. Right. You can choose to be with a relationship with someone that is completely sexually exclusive and romantically exclusive so you don't have other partners. That doesn't mean some of these desires that humans have

for other partners will just magically go away. And so if you then also restrict things like porn or masturbation, or maybe even things like flirting with others kind of innocently flirting with others, or being able to see and appreciate another person as a good looking person, if you expect your partner to really suppress all of that, that might be too much for humans because we can maybe

not act on some of those desires. We can certainly say I've committed to monogamy, Therefore I'm not gonna actually make out with someone else or have a relationship with someone else, but to not have those desires at all, we can't really have that. Okay, so you gave great points right now in order to be in a you know, I guess, a healthy relationship. Yeah, you can't. You can't like um, you can't watch porn. You can't masturbate. Ding

ding ding ding ding. Question, is masturbating considered cheating? Again, for some people, it is. I've talked to people who have thought of it as cheating, who when they found out their partners were masturbating, really upset. Most people, I think, don't, And again I would recommend even even if you have a lot of jealousy and it's really hard to hear

about those things. It's okay you don't share that necessarily with your partner, but accepting that they unless they are very low on sex drive and very low on their need for sexual novelty. You know, these traits exist in a continuum, just like anything like extroversion or intelligence or whatever have you. You don't exists on a continuum. Some people are really low. Some people are like very very introverted, right, Some people are very very extroverted. Most people are somewhere

in the middle. I remember used to date this guy Trash and he was so nice and everything, but when it came to like doing it, I used to be bored. So then even if he was at the house, I would do myself. And then I kind of fell back because I was like, damn, I have a whole piece of dick right here in the house. Am I not supposed to just, you know, do it with him because I like him, we're together, that we're you know, And then I just felt more comfortable to be connected with

with myself. That can also become a problem, and talking about that before we get into the monogamy and cheating and all these things, I just want to hit a couple of points that are maybe considered cheating for some and not for others before we go there. I want to emphasize something that you just said. You know, you were dating someone that you were not having good sex with, right right. But I loved him. He was great person great personality, He had all the great characteristics, better when

it came to the freaky part. Okay, So my advice if you want a monogamous relationship, yes, if you want to long term monogamous relationships insexs is important to you if those two things describe you, right, you or anyone there, you have to be with someone that you really want to suck oh my god, because sometimes the ones you want to fucking got no job, and then the ones that you got a job, they're danggling is whack? Is?

You know? It's hard to find exactly, It's hard to find someone who meets all of these different needs, which is why if you want to be partnered with someone who you like for other reasons, but the sex is sort of a okay or not great, then having a monogamous relationship is going to be really hard. That means you're never really gonna get that like real sexual satisfaction

that you want. So either you pair up with someone that you have an okay sex with that everything else is great, and then you have some form of an open relationship. And there are many many different forms that these open relationships can can take that would work for you. You said open relationship, What the hell does that mean? Can mean a lot of different things. Still, a lot of different people break it down for the ones that don't know, okay, So open relationships can take a couple

of different forms. There are a couple of the most common forms. Either you and your partner played together. Okay, we played together, so you may have a threesome every now and then or a foursome every now and then. Judgment free zone, judgment free zone. You know that in my mind, I've always wanted to do an orgy in my mind, but okay, in the real life, I cannot, but bodkay. First of all, I'm a lady, So what you said I wouldn't do it because my lady, do

ladies not have orgies? Is not what I'm sure that there's a lot of ladies that have orgies, that's right, I just haven't met one yet, love, and I need to meet one. Gammity. I mean, I had an orgy and they were like twenty of them. They all stabbed me with it in my ass, akil and Nadi, in my ears, everywhere, and I loved it. So that's a gaining. That's not an orgy. That's a gang bang. Oh as a gang bang. I can't forget that. You're the professional one.

You're the one that knows all orgies. Usually when you have a mix of genders and and everybody does each other more even mix of gender. Not necessarily everyone does each other, but there's more of a mix in terms of the gender ratio, whereas a well, you just described like twenty guys and a woman, that would be a gang bang. No no, no, okay, not a gang bang. Not a gang bang. I would rather an orgy. It doesn't.

Let me ask you this. Out of all the craziness and other things that you have obviously learned, experience, research and everything, what has been the biggest or weirdest discovery, Like, what has been something really weird that you actually found out in your study? Oh? Lord, there are a lot of different things, and once you study human sexuality for as long as I have, nothing really is weird because

there's so many different interests that we have. But I want you, I want to go back because we didn't finish the previous question. You asked me to back down open relationships, and yes, you then went to the most extreme version of it people. So I want to bring it to the most common version that people might experience or might experiment with, which is just one extra person.

So usually like the big threesome. Threesome. Yeah, we know from research that the that the most common sexual fantasy that Americans have is that is a threesome, but it's more I'm guessing it's more popular because it's also seen, um and I'm not going to be like a whole super late extra feminist, but I know there's also seen more acceptable to have two women and a man than two men and a women. I'm guessing that's the most common one, right, that's true, that's the most common one

for men. So about something like men often will say throesome with two men two women is appealing, and for women it's more mixed and more it's more of those women who say they are interested in the threesome, it can be fifty fifty often in terms of which type, whether they would prefer to men and a woman or two women and a man. But but so that's one version is when you and your partner can play together

with other people. The other version of a relationship is when you let each other play separately, so you go on dates or play play dates or whatever separately, and then you share come together and you share something with your partner about those dates. There's a third version of that, which is you go and see people separately and you don't really talk to each other about it. Yeah, that would probably be me. Don't tell me what you did to that other bitch, because you know what, as a

matter of fact, that's it. We're breaking up. It's over. I can't do it. I don't know there's I have two mixed emotions. Ladies, hit me up on the exactly amount of let me know how you feel if you agree with me or not, but I have to I have mixed emotions. One, I would love for you to tell me how it went, what you did, whatever, so that I feel like I'm connected and I was part of that experience and I don't feel like I'm left out. Two, I don't want to know because then I feel like

what about it? Be like them more with her? What about? You know, I don't know what's going on. I don't want to feel insecure about it. So maybe we you know, we had a free hall pass. We both went and did a freaking stuff. We come back and like it never happened. We're good. Um. I think that also in

a person like myself. Kay. I know him a bad bitche first of all, but I believe still that woman said of me, it can bring some sort of insecurity where it can make me feel like, um, a lot of times, look at it goes, it goes past a sexual part and then you're back at having sex with this person. What are the chances lalinaesa that now it went from just sex, so now I really actually like this person. Yeah, that's a very valid concern, very very

valid concern. And couples who decide to do this to open up in some way, shape or form, they especially if they're being intentional about their relationships, they devise and talk about, Okay, how are we going to make sure that whatever sexual things that happened don't turn into something more, because when they turn into something more, then we're talking

about polyamory. You can decide those things again, you can agree on those things with your partner that you're not going to do that, that you're not going to develop these whatever these flings or kind of casual interactions, that you're not going to develop them into something more. And it's not always possible, but we humans. You have some control over whether we feed a relationship or start a relationship. Right,

so who has more control? Men or women? I would probably say men do because and I'll tell you why, because they've been encouraged to do that a lot more over the last like ten thousand years of human history

than women have. Women have been forbidden entirely from having any kind of sexual interactions outside of their husbands, whereas men have often been allowed to have either sex workers on the side or mistresses on the side, concubines, you know, in almost society for the last ten thousand years since agriculture happened. So the human species has has had a

very different history before agriculture. When we were nomads, when we were gatherers, were kind of kind of you know, roaming around, being mobile and not living in any one given place, and that was a very long period. There was millions of years, several millions of years that we lived kind of like that. And then about ten thousand, twelve thousand years ago, agriculture happened. We started to live

sedentary lives. The roles of men and women changed and became much more powerful than women because during hunter gatherer times, men and women were a lot more equal in terms of bringing home the bacon, if you will. Everybody brought home the bacon. And I think that we're even now, we're getting closer back to that, but we're not fully equal,

but we're on the right track. And because we're on the right track is exactly why we're having this conversation right now, because you need women to have freedom to pursue other partners as well as men in order for us to be having these kinds of conversations. Otherwise, you know,

women were leave to be a sexual. I mean, there was a time just about hundred hundred fifty years ago in Victorian England, which then got transported into the US norms as well, where literally scientists believe that women are just not very sexual, that they were a sexual beings, they just did sex for their husband's pleasure because we were so suppressed. To be honest, there is a certain extent of that, and I don't, Oh my god, you

know that here in exactly amount. I'm an open book and I tell you everything, whether it sounds good or bad. But I thought for two seconds that I too was a sexual. And I'm gonna say it in this in this perspective only because um, I also think it's a cultural thing. I don't know if you've ever heard this, Latina,

when you're with a man, you have to please him. Young, Okay, you're upset on your you know, if you're happy, you're upset or whatever, you still gotta lay there and spread it because if you don't do it, So, no matter what, the phone must be on the table and the food must also be in the bed. Sometimes, just because you have to please your your your spouse, your partner, it doesn't always mean that your horny, that you want it,

do you whatever. A lot of times, just because you're dangling is hard and you're ready to go, doesn't mean that I'm ready the same way women need to be. They have to be come okay, may like you know, so those me okays, me slap my ask do something. But a lot of times they also feel that the fact that we don't have good sexual communication affects women a lot sexually. And it also makes you feel like you don't have a sexual drive, which you might have.

It's just that your your partner may not be doing

it properly. Do you agree? Yeah? I do agree. And an average, you know, when you look at that spectrum that I talked about in the sex drive and this bell curve in which it's distributed, it's both like not for men and women, just for men a little higher than for women on average, but in addition to that, you're right that women often need a bit more stimulation and they also what we're learning now, more and more women's sex drive needs a bit more novelty needs to

be Men's sex drive seems to be kind of more steady and less less susceptible to external factors, like it's gonna be there no matter what. Whereas women it's they give me something to get, give me something good to get aroused by. Money I can work or something. Okay,

give me something limp la casa, wash the cargo. Thanks to change, physical things change, physical attractions change, people, mature, people change the the vision that they had of the things that used to be attractive to them may no longer be attractive. People grow, and that's I think that's another thing, UM, that we also have to be understanding. When it comes to being in a relationship with someone, you have to be able to grow with that person, UM,

and understand that things will change. You can't continue to look at this person like the way that you met them a thousand years ago, and you know what before. Because I know that our time is limited and I can talk about this all day, I want to talk about something really important, UM, especially now in two let's talk about cheating. Let's talk about cheaters. Based off your research,

why do you think people cheat? People cheat for a lot of different reasons, but ultimately it boils down to two. Either they're not really happy in the relationships, sort of not getting what they need, and that could be something sexual that they're not getting, or it could be something more emotional that they're not getting and they're seeking it elsewhere. Or they just need something novel and different, exciting, like

the adventure exactly on the side. So they're happy with the relationship and they don't want to end it in any way, but they just need this little bit of extra excitement and excitement. I understand. For the most part, a lot of men feel that they need a little bit of excitement. They don't want to leave. They don't want to leave, you know, you know their main chick. They just want some excitement, you know, um, something different. It's like if you have rice and beans every day,

one day you want to eat something else. My thing is exactment, And I was about to say that my thing comes into like, Okay, you need some adventure. Can I have some adventure too? Because that's what happens. Men come out year and they cheat and they do all of this one little chick. Oh, the world's gonna fought apart. That's a problem. So that you're like, you're a whore. You cheated on me up, But in the meantime you've already stuck your dangling to like half the neighborhood. You

hit the nail on the head. Girl, That's exactly the issue that because we've had this whole history. But you

also have to understand put it in this historical perspective. Right, we literally have twelve thousand years of cultural consciousness and evolution and history and baggage where men did get to have their cake and nita to they get because look, we all as humans, not all, there's some differences, not every single one, but most of us have a strong desire and need to pair bond to form these deep, long lasting, committed, loving, caring, trusting, dependable relationships with other people.

We That has helped us survive evolutionarily. That was very useful to have another person who was strongly bonded with you, and especially if you were having babies, to help you raise those kids. And oh no, girl, because I'm doing minds by myself. Well, yeah, I did the bonding, and too said, I got to raise it on my own. But I hear you. Yeah, unfortunately for a lot of people that way, but that has generally speaking held humans right.

So we have the strong need to bond. At the same time, we also have and distributed in this bell curve, this need for variety and adventure and excitement and risk, and so we have these dual needs inside. Now. Men for the last all thousand years have been able to get both of their itches scratched. They got to marry and have the stability and the family and all that, and they got to have their concubines and mistresses and

all that. Women didn't. Really, I mean, women still get stoned to death in part to the world if they've cheap, literally stoned to death, buried to their necks and then stoned to death, and so so unfortunate. So that we still carry that baggage, men and women still carry that baggage. And so I think the challenge of the twenty first century, and especially I think now that we're coming into this,

I think this year is special. After the pandemic, I think the pandemic really made a lot of things clear for a lot of people, and I think this will the challenge will be for men to start applying a single standard. That's right. I agree with you a thousand percent. If men are okay with sticking, they're dangling a lot of times. They don't even use condoms. Guys, use condoms. Protect yourself. That's crazy. Out here in the streets. I know a lot of beautiful women get stampo put red,

not cover it, wrap it up. If you can't find a condom, you better use at least a garbage bag. Don't come out here sticking it. Get a garbage garbage backs, stretch it out and wrap it up like they used to do back in the days to maintain. It's tough out here in these streets. Better. The point is, don't be sticking it anywhere and the girl in your house you come, stick it to her, elimit. Don't do that. And the same thing goes to women. Women, Protect yourself.

I feel like, look, you guys go out here and you have sex with women. Men. Women should have the ability to do the same thing if they so choose to. I personally am not necessarily good at that. If you are that girl that you're cool with having different sexual partners. Main do you be free live your best life. Two? Now, the question is can you forgive a cheater? Can you

forgive someone that has cheated on you? So, my definition of cheating would be doing something that your partner specifically has asked you not to do or there is an understanding that that would be considered cheating, and that can, as we talked about, that can varies for someone, that could be masturbation for someone in an open You can still cheat in an open relationship because open relationships have rules and agreements, and if you break one of those

rules and agreements, that would be considered cheating. Like if I said, I don't know, don't have sex with my best friend, and my boyfriend had sex with my best friend, then that would be considered cheating, even though it's okay for him to have sex with many other women. Right, So it's yeah, that's how I would I would define it. But can you forgive again you You're gonna have to decide. It depends. There are people who forgive cheating. There are

people who absolutely do not forgive cheating. I work with a lot of clients, I have a lot of couples who have recovered from an episode of cheating or even a long love affair, have understood kind of where it came from, what caused it. How can we change something in our own relationship, in our own marriage so that that that kind of stuff does not happen again. For some people, they've resolved that by opening up. For some people, they've resolved it by changing something about how they do

their own sex life. Yeah, there's many ways you can try to go around it. Basically. Yeah, it's just yeah, we have different expectations of what is sort of forgivable or not forgivable. I'd be curious to hear your audience and what them would forgive. I want to know, because let me tell you something. If you're my man, and I put in all this work to have you to get and I build you up like build a bear, Okay, if I build you up, you think I'm gonna leave

you so that other bitch can have you? Hell nah? So what that being said, I also believe that I'm being back in the days are great great grandparents and our ancestors used to have these like long ass relationships for many many years. Every person that you talked to that has had a long marriage will always tell you you have to be patient. You gotta pretend like you don't see certain things, you don't hear certain things, and

you have to move on through certain things. Right if you leave someone every time that they cheat on your every time, I'm not saying that you're not supposed to have standards. I'm just saying, is it possible for us to work things out? How bad was it? Like if you've been with me and you have like a whole five year relationship with someone else, and you have a whole family on the set and everything, okay is a wrap but different that's a different thing. But how bad

was it? Can we recoup from it? Is there something that I can do to fix it? Can you do something to fix it? Like? I think that these days were so quick to end relationships and end things, we no longer work things out. But this conversation has been so good. Okay, I really feel like we need to part two to this, don't you feel? Yes? Absolutely, there's so many things to talk about. We definitely need a

part two. That's a great point that you made, that we end relationships way too quickly and it's too bad. Like some relationships are good relationships worth keeping. As you said, if you guess a lot, and this is generally speaking, a good relationship in your partner was I don't know, on a business trip and they hooked up with someone and it doesn't mean anything, and it's not going to affect how they feel about you or how they feel about the relationship. Like, is that really a good reason

to end a good seven fifteen year marriage. I don't know, and I don't think so. I don't think so exactly. Just hack his phone, had his phone, put a GPS in his car. You know what that's say. I'm getting divorced already. I was still stick at him and I don't even know who he is because I ain't got no man. But ever tell you this, we need a do part two. This is so good. Where can people get in contact with you they want to ask you any questions or any researches or anything like that. Please

connect with me on Instagram at doctor Johanna. That's d r z h a n A. Same on Twitter as well, and that's my website to doctor Johanna dot com d r z h a n a dot com. And for people who might be curious about exploring opening up. I have an online course called opens Martyr that they can take that kind of guides them through how to do this the smart way and not the dumb way. Guys,

this episode has been so good. If you have any questions, if you want to know anything for the part two of this conversation, go to Exactly a Mata on YouTube and on Instagram and ask whatever questions. I Am literally gonna go there and read everything that you have and um and I'll be asking and I'll you'll hear it here on the podcast for sure. Thank you so much. Thanks to every single person that has been joining us

week by week. Thank you so much for joining me today, and remember to follow exactly a Mata and Michael podcast on Instagram. You can also watch us on YouTube. Like I always say, just go to the search bar and write exactly a Mata and remember that this has been a production of I Heart Radio Michael podcast Network. For more information and for more podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

listen to your favorite show. Exactly Anyways. We will see you guys next Thursday and game h