¶ Welcome to Year Three
Welcome to Evoke Greatness . We are officially entering year three of this podcast and I am filled with so much gratitude for each and every one of you who've joined me on this incredible journey of growth and self-discovery . I'm Sunny , your host and fellow traveler on this path of personal evolution .
This podcast is a sanctuary for the curious , the ambitious and the introspective . It's for those of you who , like me , are captivated by the champion mindset and driven by an insatiable hunger for growth and knowledge .
Whether you're just beginning your journey or you're well along your path , you're going to find stories here that resonate with your experiences and aspirations . Over the last two years , we've shared countless stories of triumph and challenge , of resilience and transformation . We've laughed , we've reflected and we've grown together .
And as we've evolved , so too has this podcast . Remember , no matter what chapter you're on in your own story , you belong here . This community we've built together is a place of support , inspiration and shared growth . Where intention goes , energy flows , and the energy you bring to this space elevates us all .
So , whether you're listening while commuting , working out or enjoying your morning coffee , perhaps from one of those motivational mugs I'm so fond of , know that you're a part of something special . Thank you for being here . Thank you for your curiosity , your openness and your commitment to personal growth .
As we embark on year three , I invite you to lean in , to listen deeply and to let these stories resonate with your soul . I believe that a rising tide raises all ships and I invite you along in this journey to evoke greatness .
¶ The Triangle of Trust Framework
Welcome back to part two of Stop Micromanaging . Start Leading with my guest , ashley Cox . We're exposing the real reason your team isn't stepping up and it's not what you think . We unpack trust , tough conversations and how to finally stop micromanaging without losing control .
If you missed part one , make sure to go back to last week's episode and catch all of the mindset shifts and hard truths . You need to break the bottleneck for good . Now let's hop into part two . You have a certain framework , probably a number of frameworks , but you have a certain framework that you walk through , called the triangle of trust .
If someone listening has a team member that they desperately want to trust , but something has happened that has impeded that , or they just can't seem to get there , what is that first step that they should take to really move that relationship forward , to start building a foundation of trust ?
Yeah , the triangle of trust is one of my most favorite frameworks , so I love that we get to have this conversation , because a team , a high performance team , a team that you can trust and that you can rely on and that you can grow together with , has to start with a foundation of trust , and a lot of times that trust is hindered by us not trusting the
team that we hired in the first place , and sometimes that team , you know , doesn't trust us because we haven't proven ourselves to be trustworthy yet . And the funny thing about trust is that some people give trust first until it is broken .
I'm going to trust you until you give me a reason not to trust you , while other people are like I'm not going to trust you until you give me a reason to trust you . And so these two people often work together , which is unfortunate .
But one of the first steps forward is realizing , as a leader , you went through probably a pretty intensive hiring process to select someone to be an expert on your team , and so we have to trust ourselves that we vetted the candidates appropriately , we asked the right questions , we presented the job accurately , that they would actually be doing , and that we made a
quality decision , because we went through these multiple steps in order to say congratulations , you've got the job . Because we went through these multiple steps in order to say congratulations , you've got the job , welcome to the team . And so our trust really has to begin there .
We have to trust ourselves in that process so that we can say okay , I've hired you to do this really important job . I trust you to come into this business , to learn this business , to ask the questions you need to ask and to do the job you were hired to do .
And when we immediately approach someone who has just gotten started and we're withholding information , or we're not letting go of things , or we're checking up behind them constantly , or we're micromanaging every task , or we're requiring approval in every single thing they do , or requiring approval in every single thing they do , how trustworthy do you think they feel ?
Not very . They don't feel trusted , and so they're going to not act in ways that will build your confidence because they're scared to make a move . Well , I better ask for permission first , I better run this by her first , I better get her feedback on this before I hit send . And so now they start acting in a way that you're like see , I can't trust them .
They bring everything to me . Well , we've created that , and so we have to be really mindful of the way that we're showing up as leaders and how that is either building trustworthiness with your team or destroying it .
I'm curious . There's a couple of things in there that I want to pull the thread on , one of which is this micromanaging element , and oftentimes that really does damage that relationship even more so , or that may be the fracture of trust in the first place , and so that piece , I think you know , can be driven by a number of things
¶ Overcoming Leadership Insecurity
. But I almost like want to back up for the leader who may not trust , who may be micromanaging , who may be stepping in areas that they don't necessarily need to . How much do you think that's driven by a sense of insecurity or intimidation that another person may outshine them ?
I think that's a great point , and it's a very frequent point as well . I know a lot of times , like I'll hear , clients or people in my audience will say well , I don't know about hiring someone and sharing this level of information with them , because what if they take all my ideas and then they leave and they start their own business ?
And I'm like , listen , we're a very small , odd percent of the population who want to take on the risk of owning a business . Most people don't , most people don't , and so we have to be very mindful of the way that we're thinking about the people that we're hiring . And are there people who may do that ?
Sure , there is a rotten apple in every bunch , right , but we cannot run our entire businesses and our lives around suspecting that every single person is out to get us , and so that fear-based leadership is definitely one that leads to feeling insecure , feeling intimidated , feeling like this person's going to take everything you've worked so hard for , and that's why we
have lawyers and that's why we have contracts , and that's why we have , you know , employment agreements and NDAs and these things that help protect us and the work that we've worked so hard to build and create . And there's we have to be really , just really really thinking through . What is the possibility of this outcome ?
I am all for let's sit down and think worst case scenario . As someone who's worked in HR and leadership development for almost 20 years , I'm all about that . I love to have a risk mitigation plan . I love to think through well , if this does happen , what am I going to do ? What am I going to say ? How are we going to respond ?
What are we going to react ? So if that exercise feels helpful to say , okay , let's just get really nitty gritty and lay out all the details and say what's the worst that could possibly happen , then you could look at that and say , okay , how do we plan for that ?
And then we can move down the road because now we know we've planned for the worst possible outcome . Anything else that comes our way is easy peasy , right . But I think intimidation and insecurity definitely goes a long way and that's part of that self-growth of leadership .
You know , leadership is going to make you check some of those things and reflect on those things and if you're feeling that insecure or you're feeling that intimidated , that's a good checkpoint for you to say , okay , do I need to talk to my coach ? Do I need to talk to my therapist ?
Do I need to process this or reflect on this or really explore why I'm feeling this way ? And nine times out of 10 , it's something that you've experienced in the past .
Almost every single leader I've worked with has been burned at some point or another of something that has happened and that has sparked that insecurity to a different level or a different degree than maybe it used to exist .
Yeah , and if not dealt with right , the backpack that we're carrying with all of those things in the past gets insanely heavy and then that the weight of all that is wrapped up in that spills out onto people around you .
And so I think you know it's when , when , if something triggers someone to hear this and feel a little defensive , lean into that , like I couldn't encourage that more .
There was a time in my life where I really early on , I wanted to be the star student and it's funny to look at it now , but I really like that's something that I felt like recognition was , was something that kind of fed me .
And it wasn't until realizing that when you light other , when you can shine the light on others like everyone wins , you develop the trust . It's not I leading , you know , I mean it really is the we component of leading that will allow you to get the farthest , the best outcomes .
And when we can kind of take that spotlight off of ourselves and say how can I build an environment where I can shine the light on people around me , we can amplify them , we can raise them up , we can stretch and grow them , because ultimately that's like for the good of all right , like , everyone benefits out of it .
Yeah , yeah , I don't want to be the smartest person on my team . If I'm the smartest person on my team , I have not hired the right people . I need people to know how to do technology , because it is not me , you know , and that's the thing it's like .
If you are hiring for your team , it's always important to look at who is the smartest person in this that I could hand this off to , because that's going to allow you to trust them and for them to come in and to feel trusted because they really are the expert . If I hired you to do this job , I don't need a whole lot of input .
You know , here's the vision , here's the goal , here's the direction that we're going . How do we make that happen ? What's your input ? What is your like my right hand
¶ Compassion Meets Assertiveness
we make that happen . What's your input ? My right hand , mara . She is absolutely incredible . She is everything opposite to me . She is the tech to my non-tech .
She is the behind the scenes to my I want to be on the mic , and so when she was researching a software program a couple of years ago , she brought it to me and she was like okay , you know , we need this new program because there's a better way that we could do this . We could be more efficient . X , y , z .
And I was like , okay , sounds great , she goes . What level of input would you like to have ? I was like this is good . I was like like , put together a spreadsheet , maybe your top three options , compare , contrast , like pros and cons , and show me what our kind of our average pricing is going to be . That's helpful .
And then she , you know she put it together , she brought it to me and she said , okay , these are our three options . The price range is going to be about this per month or this per year . Does that fall within our budget ? Yeah , that sounds reasonable . You know which one do you think is going to be the best to meet our needs ?
I think this option , okay , great , let's do that . I literally spent five minutes on this project , whereas I could have gotten lost in the weeds on this for six months , because I didn't know what I was looking for , I didn't know what programs were available . I didn't number one .
I don't like to do that level of detailed research on anything technology related and so for her to use her superpower , she had it done in like an hour and I would have probably meddled around with it for six months or better and not made a decision , and it would have created a bottleneck and it would have stopped us from implementing the system , which now ,
magically , we click one button and lots of fun things happen . Nice , I like that for us . I didn't have to do it , though .
Yeah , that's a beautiful example , though , of how we can and working with someone who understands . And they're asking those questions of hey , what input would you like to have , what information would you like to have ?
Because I can do all the work , I can do all the legwork , I can capture it , I can paint this picture for you so that you can make the best , most informed decision . But let me get in the weeds and then you let me know the direction we want to go , and that's a really great example as to how we really should work with one another .
You know , based on whatever someone is hired for and it's their expertise we're really hiring them for . So why would we stand in the way and need to be the one to say I need to feel like I have this , you know all this expertise , you know . That's why you hired me Exactly , exactly .
Hire the brilliant people and then get out of their way . Yeah , that's pretty much it , so that's a wrap . Yeah , mic drop , yeah , mic drop . We have done all we can here today , but it really is true , and it's simple , but it's not always easy , and that's the hardest part .
Yes , you referenced something earlier the 14-day week . You've worked with leaders who have transformed from working 14-day weeks or 80-hour weeks to having teams that they can actually rely on , to having that sense of really feeling like I don't have to completely lay face to the floor in everything to be able to get things done .
What has to be true for that to happen , and how can that create ripples throughout someone's life ?
That's such a good question . What has to be true is that we are building a business together , that we are not building a business solo , and what used to be a solo business now requires a team , because you cannot carry the weight of this incredible thing that you have built .
You have brought it to where it is and you get to be proud of that and you get to wear that as a badge of honor and say I built this seven-figure business . I built this with nothing but a wing and a prayer and a lot of tenacity and a lot of late nights .
And yes , there are seasons in our businesses where we are working long hours and we're figuring things out , and sometimes
¶ Having Difficult Conversations
in the early days you have more time than you have money , and so you're not able to invest in fancy software or team members or things that are going to allow ease in your life .
But when you get to that point , if you are still acting as a solopreneur , you got it all backwards , my friend , the truth gets to be that you've brought it this far and now we're going to take it to the next level .
I love that . I absolutely love that . You say that compassion and assertiveness can coexist , and I think a lot of leaders struggle with the balance of that . What does this look like in practice ? And the first thing that comes to my mind is difficult conversations , right yeah , where both of those things have to be present . They have to be congruent there .
What's that look like , played out ?
Yeah . So first let me start with , I love talking about assertive communication because so many people get it wrong . So the opposite of assertive isn't that you're going to be wishy-washy , or the opposite of assertive is that you are going to be wishy-washy and passive and docile and kind of a doorstep .
But so many people think that assertive means aggressive and assertive doesn't mean aggressive . Assertive means direct . Assertive means making sure that you're respecting your needs and your wants while also respecting the needs and wants of other people in the conversation . And so we can do that with loads of compassion .
And I think the best way to approach that in any kind of difficult conversation is always with curiosity . First , we have to start by not making assumptions out of line , right Like you have to assume positive intent . Assume that this person wasn't trying to , you know , railroad your business , steal your ideas , miss that deadline on purpose , whatever it is .
Whatever the thing is that you're like , we have to have a hard conversation about this . First we have to walk in and say , okay , I'm not going to assume that they were doing this on purpose or with malintent . Okay , got that . Then I'm going to approach the conversation with curiosity .
That's how we maintain compassion , because if we come in and we say , justify why you didn't meet this deadline , or explain why this project is out of budget , or I demand to understand what is going on here , we're automatically putting people in the defensive and those walls go up because it's about self-preservation .
At on here , we're automatically putting people in the defensive and those walls go up because it's about self-preservation . At this point , you're like whoa , whoa , whoa . You don't even know the whole story yet and you come in here , shame and blame , guns a blazing , and so we have to be thoughtful about the way that we approach these conversations .
So my favorite , favorite question and I always share this everywhere I get the opportunity to is to say help me understand . Help me understand what happened with the project . Where did things go off the rail ? Help me understand why we didn't meet this deadline . Help me understand why , whatever the situation is is happening .
Because immediately it says okay , I wanna be in on this . Because when we're on this together , it's us against the problem , it's not me against you , and that's what we often get mixed up in .
When we're in a difficult conversation or we need to address something that feels hard is that it feels like it's me against you , the leader , against the employee , when it's really the two of you against the problem . And then , from what's the difference between a reason and an excuse ?
And is there something that genuinely happened that caused this outcome , this negative outcome that you weren't anticipating or don't want to be dealing with ? Or you know now you're trying to recover from ?
And so I like to give the example , the story of it's like when you say you're going to start running , I'm going to start running and I'm going to run three days a week . Start running , I'm going to start running and I'm going to run three days a week . Okay , great , and I'm running , and I'm running , and I'm running .
And then , like , week three gets here and you're like oh , I'm tired , I don't want to run today . Or oh , it's , you know , it's kind of rainy out , I don't want to run in the drizzle . That feels kind of gross . And then on another week , somebody says well , how's your running going ? And you're like well , you know , I've kind of been doing .
Okay , you know I've been tired and the rain's been kind of nasty , and it's been this , that and the other . Well , these are all excuses that we're making , right . But if someone says , hey , why didn't you go running today ? And you're like , oh my God , yesterday I fractured my ankle . Like that's a legitimate reason why you should not be out running around .
You know you need time to heal and to make sure that that bone is sturdy again to be able to run on . So our job in those conversations and those hard conversations is to understand what's the reason .
If there is one , and if there is an excuse , how do we support that person so that they don't feel the need to make excuses Like what roadblocks , what communication , what challenges maybe got in the way that led them to start feeling defensive , to say , well , I was this and I was that , and it was this person , it was that person .
And I'm playing the blame game and pointing the finger and shifting blame somewhere else . And so , I think , difficult conversations . I could be on that soapbox all day long , sunny , because I love that topic . So I'll stop there for now and let you process some of that .
I think that is a muscle that , sadly , is not formed or strong collectively . In my experience , yes , I would agree . I think there's always the opportunity to get better , but it's like you have to desire to want to get better , and in order to get better , you literally have to . It's like building a muscle . Right , you got to lift weights .
You can start out light , but you've got to actually consistently put in the reps to be able to form that muscle , because it's like role playing . Everybody hates it . It's the most uncomfortable , awkward thing ever and you can get profoundly better as a result .
It works so amazingly . It really does . It does . And so that's why I always tell people don't wait for the big , hard conversations to come . Don't wait for a termination conversation to be the first hard conversation you've ever had , because that's going to emotionally dysregulate you and drain you in ways you can't even imagine .
Start with the small things , like a lot of times , what I see women doing is well , I don't want to address that because I don't want to be nitpicky . No , but you'll micromanage every single part of the project over here . Okay , well , that's fine . Or they'll say well , I don't want to be mean , it's not being mean .
This person signed on for this job and they agreed to do these tasks . And when that doesn't happen , it's our responsibility to say hey , help me understand what's going on here . Is there a tool you need ? Is there training that you need ? Is there support I could provide ? Where did maybe I miss a piece of the puzzle ?
And that's the way that we learn and we get better , and it's the way that we help our team get better , because a lot of times we also have to remember where are these people coming from and what bad boss baggage are they bringing with them , and that's something we don't talk enough about .
We don't talk about the person coming in doesn't just start afresh today with no past history . They have bad boss baggage , they have traumatic work environments , they have experienced toxic work environments where they were berated for the smallest things and so maybe they were scared to come to you because they thought you might act the same way .
So when you do come in and you're like why did you do this and what happened ? And you're elevated and you're like why did you do this and what happened ?
And you're elevated and you're emotionally dysregulated and you're not able to maintain your composure to find out really what the root cause is , that's going to trigger a trauma response in them or some sort of response in them that is based off of that past history where they immediately put those defenses up .
And so we always have to be thinking about like this is a whole human being sitting in front of us and they have lived experience outside of the relationship we might have with them or the time that we've spent with them , and they're not always gonna act in the way that you would want for them to act because of those things that have happened .
But if you can be patient , you can be compassionate and you can be curious .
You can really forge incredible trust and bonds and loyalty that can't be broken the opportunity
¶ Love Others & Final Thoughts
to grow by way of not having an honest conversation with them or , you know , sharing crucial feedback that is wrapping them up , the opportunity to grow . And when I frame it like that , I'm so compelled to make sure that I have the conversation that it's . I can't not , and so I would challenge people to tap into your value system when it comes to that .
Like what are you unwilling , like I am unwilling to not allow that person to grow ?
Yeah , yeah . And people can't improve if they don't know what they need to improve in . So if you only do a performance review or conversation once a year , number one , nobody's going to remember what happened eight months ago , six months ago , three weeks ago .
And number two , they're not going to have an entire year to be able to correct that and to grow and to improve , and so now we've set them back a whole year in their career . That's not fair , and so I always like to reframe it as , like you know , this is being helpful , not harmful . I'm not being mean , I'm being supportive , and that's my role .
And it may feel uncomfortable to you Guess what ? It feels really uncomfortable to them . And so , also , knowing that you're coming into this conversation that neither one of you really want to have , but you can have in a respectful , appropriate , supportive way , Well , I can't believe we've already been talking for as long as we have and I could honestly talk .
I think both of us could probably talk on these topics for so much longer . As we wrap up , I have one question that I love to ask , and it is if it were your last downer , and of all you've learned and all you have absorbed from a lesson perspective , and you could only impart one piece of guidance or advice to the world , what would that be ?
This is going to sound so simple , but just love others . Just love others . I think we have enough hate and divisiveness and cruelty , and if we could just see the humanity in each other , I'm going to get emotional . It would make all the world of difference .
I'm going to get emotional . It would make all the world of difference , kindness and love go a really , really long way as social innovators . Yeah Well , ashley , thank you so , so much for joining . I have had an absolute blast and I think we're so aligned in the way we think that we could talk forever about this .
I would love for you to share with the audience . This will all be in the show notes , but where can they find you ? Where can they check out your podcast ? Where can they connect with you ?
Yes , thank you so much for having me again today , sunny . It's been an honor to be here and to have such a powerful conversation . I hope everyone walks away feeling inspired maybe toes are stepped on a little bit but encourages you to reflect on how do we grow individually and how do we grow together .
So you can connect with me at ashleycoxco on my website , facebook , instagram and then over on LinkedIn . I'm Ashley N Cox , so I know that we will have those links in the show notes and I would love to continue the conversation there . So please come over , say hi and tell me where your toes got stepped on today . I'd love to know .
Yes , yes , ashley , thank you so much . I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your area of expertise , and I think people are going to get a lot out of this . Thank you so much for listening and for being here on this journey with me . I hope you'll stick around If you liked this episode .
It would mean the world for me if you would rate and review the podcast or share it with someone you know may need to hear this message . I love to hear from you all and want you to know that you can leave me a voicemail directly .
If you go to my website , evokegreatnesscom , and go to the contact me tab , you'll just hit the big old orange button and record your message . I love the feedback and comments that I've been getting , so please keep them coming . I'll leave you with the wise words of author Robin Sharma Greatness comes by doing a few small and smart things each and every day .
It comes from taking little steps consistently . It comes from making a few small chips against everything in your professional and personal life that is ordinary , so that a day eventually arrives when all that's left is the extraordinary .