Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence with Kyle McDowell

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Welcome back to another episode of Evoke Greatness . My guest today is Kyle McDowell . Kyle is a keynote speaker , a coach and the best-selling author of Begin With we 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence . Kyle , welcome to the show .

I would love to hear more about your story you shared , in a way , where you started out working in a tiny cubicle . You then led tens of thousands of people and then you embarked on your mission that you're in today . Would you share a little bit more about that ?

I led massive organizations , my last role before I left corporate America . I had 15,000 employees , 40-something locations .

I ran the world's largest mail order pharmacy for a time Wow and just prior to that I had another role where I had 14,000 , 15,000 employees leading , I think at the time and maybe still today it's the world's largest health insurance enrollment function .

So I ran all the Obamacare enrollment functions as well as a call center and enrollment function for 1-800 Medicare . So I started from very humble beginnings and found a little bit of success early on and took on bigger and kind of greater in terms of scope and size and number of people and kind of a sphere of influence .

This always was growing and as you and I were chatting before we went live here , I reached a point where I had an opportunity and found myself at a crossroads , and the crossroads was it was essentially do I want to continue to lead a singular organization or do I want to take the passion and all of the learnings that I picked up throughout those 28 years and

try to have a greater impact ?

During my last stop or second to last stop actually in the corporate world , I coined these 10 principles that ultimately became the foundation for my book that you mentioned , and the results , the impact , but most of all , the fulfillment that I have found evangelizing those principles , not only when I was still a W2 guy inside the corporate world , but since then ,

through my travels and speaking and coaching , consulting work . I think I made the right decision . As you called it . It's essentially the second chapter of my career .

So , meeting with folks like you and continuing to evangelize the messages that are in the book , the lessons that I learned throughout my corporate journey , it's what fuels me today , so that's why I'm just grateful for the opportunity to be here with you .

I played football from a very , very early age and when you're with a group of six , seven , eight-year-olds it's easy to lead because there's a lot of chaos on the field and I was always kind of very earnest in everything I approached as a child and when I had the opportunity to play football I played quarterback and it felt like , okay , somebody's got to

wrangle these guys . So it just kind of came naturally to me . And as I grew up into elementary school , middle school and so on , I was a bus patrol and I was a captain of the bus patrol and student government and different things where there were kind of leadership opportunities . But it was never really a conscious decision .

I've always been kind of a people person and have always really enjoyed helping other people achieve things on their agenda or along their journey . So it kind of came naturally . But I think I would also consider myself a student of leadership . I'm always reading about and from leaders .

I went to business school when I was purposeful to go to a business school that was really well known for leadership and team building and culture . That was the only school I applied to and it was kind of my dream destination . And so I guess the short answer is no . I haven't always been a leader .

I didn't choose to be a leader , it just kind of happened .

I don't think I realized how much sports plays into leadership , with principles that are woven within team sports , until I am the parent of a kid who both my boys play flag football and my younger son is actually the quarterback and I stand back and I listen to some of these conversations with these 12-year-olds and I am fascinated at the level of leadership that

exists on a 12-year-old flag football team , and they're often . I'll post things on LinkedIn Like y'all . My mind was just blown today by a conversation of 12-year-olds on the field , and so I love that you say that , because I really think there is an incredible tie to what you learn amongst a team environment , be it sports , you know , debate , whatever .

There are a lot of lessons to be on there .

But what I didn't realize until the last few years , especially when I started writing the book and since then , the similarities that exist between the chess team , the flag football team , the band , you know , anytime there's a group of people aligned around a common cause , it's a team .

So whether I'm I gave a talk last week to a group of 108th graders and I didn't I didn't like dramatically cater my message to them because you know they're in sports , they're in teams of like an academic nature , like they have their in environments that you would categorize as a team .

So the message for a team is a team is a team is how I approach my messaging and sports no different . And what the realization I've come to recently is I had a complete stranger tell me this and it really hit home was the principles that are outlined in the book and that I have kind of I .

The intention when I wrote them was strictly the corporate world . This guy tells me it changed how he raises his children and I've heard that more than more than once . So the principles and like being a principal based leader , I think is applicable to all walks of life , all team environments .

So I love that you've picked up on it , and flag football as well , because if there's a group of people aligned around a cause man , we are a team and we've got to have our , our guiding principles .

You know I thought of it more leading , you know leadership teams , corporate world but you're right , it really is . It can be applicable to anything .

What goes into the assessment of an organization's current reality , and then how can they begin making necessary shifts ?

We've got to acknowledge that there's an opportunity to do things differently . Usually , differently is a synonym for better or higher functioning , especially in the corporate world . For me , it's first assessing what it is that we , what is our environment like today ? Where are we falling short ?

You look at things like attrition , turnover , our ability to attract great candidates , employee surveys , engagement surveys , our customer satisfaction surveys , client surveys Letting data tell us where we have a problem or may not have a problem , because I'm sure you saw it throughout your life in corporate .

If I birthed something or I created something or I played a role in the creation of something , by definition I'm going to be biased . I have a hard time seeing the opportunities that other people around can see so clearly . I think it's important to be open , honest and , again , vulnerable about where our opportunities are . Then you got to lock arms .

You got to lock arms with those that are a part of the team , those that are impacted by the team .

There's been a flavor of that throughout most of my career and that's transformation either going in and consolidating a bunch of work groups or leading a cultural transformation that was driven or designated to be driven by the C-suite of the companies that I was with .

Every single one takes on a different flavor , but there is one consistent component that is always at the forefront of how I get things rolling , and that's the people . If you want to drive transformation in anything in life , there's got to be some buy-in , and that is difficult to obtain , depending on the environment .

We've got a very , very tenured group of people that have been doing this for a long , long time . They think they've figured out the best way to build that mousetrap . I think if you're open about where you see the opportunities are , let the data drive a lot of those decisions , like the survey stuff I mentioned a moment ago .

I think that's your position much better for success . The last thing you want to do in my mind anytime you're tasked with transformation is to assume that you know the path , because every environment is different . There are external factors as well as internal factors that if you're just new to the party , you may not be aware of being open about .

You don't know all the answers , you don't have the final destination in mind . It is a process , then , trying to enjoy the ride between here and there , but this just in , you're never there . It's always a constant effort to continue to improve . You could always be better than you were the day before .

Leaders still have access to see who completed or inserted whatever comment . Where it started to make really it started to be really powerful for me was are you familiar with the concept of 360 surveys ? I'm sure you are right . I am so for your listeners who aren't right .

So if I wanted to launch a survey and this is how I really became kind of fond of this process so I wanted to know what my team thought of me . I wanted to know what my peers thought of me and I wanted to know what those above me and the organizational chart thought of me . And , by the way , I wasn't going to do this just for myself .

I wanted my teams to do this as well

. So I launched I this is how I got kind of into this mode is I launched a 360 survey and I wanted feedback on me , but I didn't just take that survey and internalize it and try to get better .

I shared the results with everybody who wanted to know , including those that left , you know , not so such flattering comments , but what I think what happened when you do that is you show a side of yourself as the leader that is vulnerable and relatable , and I always tell people authenticity plus relatability equals trust .

So if my team sees that I'm authentic , and I want your feedback and I want to be better for you , because , as the leader , I've always thought my job is not about Xs and O's , it's about removing barriers for them to be successful . It's about putting them the team the best position to be as successful as possible .

So when I got these results and I shared them and I've done it multiple times since then there's this trust that forms because hang on a second , if this is the boss and he is airing his development , growth opportunities and he is showing us what others have said good , bad or ugly about him , you know , maybe I should be a little more open into into into my

role in the organization , where I have opportunities to be better , what I , maybe , what my blind spots are . So I think in all transformation and I think every great leader does this , and that is be open about your own flaws . Recognize and be open that you don't have all the answers .

You know , this air of perfection I call it a perfection pedestal is is for insecure leaders that allow their ego to stand in the way . So I think surveys , when done appropriately , are a really they're . They're like fuel for the transformation engine , but they've got to be done appropriately .

Now , what I think a lot of organizations also do that give survey a bad rap is , and still do these , these wide , these wide ranging , overarching surveys about everything that the company participates in or has an opportunity to be better at . But they either don't share the results and or they share the results and do nothing about the results .

So it's like why did I even bother wasting my time to complete the survey ? I think the data is there . Using the data and being open about where our opportunities are is how you get traction and buy in from those around you .

There , there doesn't exist . There is the journey that you're constantly tracking on . And then , I think , weaving in curiosity . Curiosity to really better understand what not only what people really meant by their feedback , but then curiosity around the ways .

How can I grow , how can I stretch myself into , into a place where not only am I stretching my own self , my own space , but where I can help stretch others as well along the way ?

You know , I didn't want anyone to know when I said the wrong thing or did the wrong thing , and so I kept it super quiet and then people could only see what I let them see what a , what a moronic way to lead you know what a mistake right yeah , what a mistake yeah . What a mistake .

I fell down and stumbled so many times because I was leading through my ego then actually wanting to be a real servant leader and and so it took a number of years and it took some you know , some painful mistakes for me to say wait a second , if I have created all these mistakes and I have tripped over myself , there is an opportunity here , and if I really

want to serve others , well , there's a responsibility here .

I had to be perfect , like I had all the answers , I knew everything . You weren't going to tell me otherwise and clearly I think part of this comes with age , like you recognize that that's just not possible . It's not true .

But not only are you doing yourself a disservice because you're like closing and shutting down in ways that you might have an opportunity to improve , but I think you alienate yourself from your team because nobody wants to follow the perfect and authentic boss , because they know better we .

I'm sure you're , I'm sure you're well aware that your teams , they're well aware of your flaws , whether you share them or not . So the more that you act like you don't have them , the more they know you're full of it and nobody wants to follow somebody that way . Yeah , inauthentic man I'm . I love hearing that story and I had a .

I had someone recently asked me . I was on stage actually during a Q and A someone says Kyle , do you ever suffer from imposter syndrome ? And for a split second my inclination was to say no and I thought what a hypocrite . No , dude , no , and I went hell , yes , I suffer from it . All the time . She said still , I said still yes .

So I love that you brought that up as well , because that is something that I think , if you say you don't suffer from it , You're lying , you're not being honest . You're not being honest , right , right .

A lot of organizations don't encourage curiosity , like you talked about earlier .

So what's left is a very stale , filtered version that lacks innovation , it doesn't encourage people to be their best , it stifles the unique experiences that we all bring to the table , and with those experiences comes different perspectives , and those perspectives , theoretically and more often than not , lead us down different paths that maybe we wouldn't have thought of

on our own if we were all in this cookie-cutter mode that big corporate tries to put us in . So for me , the overarching like look and I get a little passionate about this we don't even speak the same inside of the corporate world , inside of our work lives , as we do on the outside , in our personal lives .

Sonny , when's the last time you came home and asked your significant other your husband , I believe and said , hey , did you finish those deliverables today ? Or I captured some action item from you last night at dinner , and I want to make sure you execute . So nobody talks that way , right ?

So our lives inside of the workplace are filtered , to begin with , and I think that stifles creativity . That's one . And then second we've already touched on it and that's a lack of and I would combine a lack of vulnerability with an excess of ego . I would combine those as two kind of very similar constraints .

The boss that knows everything's not open to criticism or critique , certainly not from their own team . In the only time they're allowed to be challenged , and that's usually from their boss , which , again , if we have one person who's the only person who's allowed to have an opinion , we're not going to .

More often than not , we're not going to find the right solution . We may think we have found it , but we haven't explored other avenues .

So I think , in concert those two things right this bureaucratic monolith of how we behave inside big corporate , and then , when we take it down a level to the leaders that we work with on a one-on-one basis and those that we serve directly , their inability to see the force for the trees , to understand that there's a better , potentially a better path to allow

and be open to criticism from those around them , especially their team . I think it's very , very important for every leader , regardless of your seniority , the number of people that report to you , regardless of the industry , very , very important to be open to pushback and challenges and other ways of doing things from your team . It can't be all one direction .

I should be asking my boss proactively hey , is there anything I can be doing differently ? But I think asking that , being open to asking that of your peers and those who report to you , that puts you in a place where you again in that really curious place of how can I best serve you .

And the bigger picture is being willing to be that leader that can get challenged and nobody goes oh somebody just challenged and creating that environment where that's welcomed .

It's we challenge each other , because in almost every organization the challenges come from here to here . Occasionally they're peer to peer , depending on how open the bigger boss is , but so rarely are they allowed or even encouraged from the team to the boss .

And when I wrote these 10 principles , before I jumped in and started sharing them with the team , the first thing I said was I'm going to hold you accountable to these , make no mistake and I'm comfortable saying that as aggressively as I just did , because I expect you to hold me just as accountable there's no double standard , no leadership gap .

We are all on the same playing field . And I think anytime and that's what's lost a lot in leaders of all walks , not just corporate America , is this , this gap that exists and and it's perpetuated by I'm allowed to do things you're not allowed to do . I help myself to a different set of standards than you .

Yes , you have deliverables to me that are do it you know , at any given interval . If I miss one , that's no big deal , I'll get you . I'll get you on Monday , or whatever the case . So I just think that's garbage . It's got to be a level playing field for everyone , including challenges .

So if we're heading , if we're in the middle of a product launch and someone on my team has has has launched a similar product or has some experience related to what it is that we're doing , and they and they have a data point that says we're about to make a mistake , or I've tried this or done this , or likewise , from an experience perspective , I know exactly

where we're heading , because and they can demonstrate that experience you damn well better listen , right . You can't walk in and say I don't like this because of you know you air your opinions right

. Opinions are not so helpful in terms of challenges , because that's where bias creeps in . I love it . I think that's how the best solutions are found . I think that's how people are allowed to express who they are . They're open with their thoughts and feelings .

Um , I think it can go too far and that's where the leader has to step in and kind of not mediate , but , um , um , allow , allow the team to share their opinions , be open , but be very mindful that if it's not , uh , uh , an experiential or a data driven challenge , that we've kind of got to reel that in .

Um , I'll say it even more dramatically right , if challenges don't exist and we don't have open disagreements and heated debates , as you say , um , that's vanilla , that's stale , and I think that's a recipe for mediocrity .

Because , again , if we have one person who's the only one that's allowed to contribute ideas without disagreement , without pushback , um , I just A , it's boring as hell for the team B , they don't get a voice in their their own journey , which is really disappointing and kind of soul sucking , and I think that leads to turnover and people getting disenfranchised with

the team and leaving . And then , lastly , I think it creates this , uh , again , this divide and this gap between the team and the leader . Why would I raise my hand to offer suggestions if you're not even open to listening to me ?

So you're not putting them in a box , you're saying let's get in a room , let's be like the , the energy right , bouncing off the walls around ideas and thoughts and engagement . You have to construct bumper guards that it doesn't go too far .

But I think some of the some of the best meetings I've ever been a part of were heated debates and nobody has to like get angry with each other and walk out mad . You know it's it's really about like creating that space where that is valued .

But I think what's more important and lost in a lot of environments is if , if the team feels as if their ideas will be met with either negativity or not even considered , you know what happens next . They stop offering ideas , right ?

So I think it's incumbent on the leader to not only say you're obligated to speak up , you got to live it actually and hear them out and and and look for solutions and the things that they bring . But most importantly this is where I was going Most importantly , you have to acknowledge that there will be mistakes .

If you want your team to be creative , be innovative , to be curious to , to express , uh , descending opinions , um , and allow them to , to kind of flex their own creative muscles and creative energy , you have to be prepared for mistakes and that's one of the principles as well .

We own our mistakes , because when the team owns their mistake , raises their hand and says we did something wrong , it's so important for the leader to pick them up and move along and recognize hey , you made a mistake . Whatever you know wasn't made out of malice . That were no nefarious intentions here . Let's get this corrected and move on .

Now we know what not to do . We know that's a mistake . It's going to stand in our way . We know we're better off for your mistakes . So thank you for owning it .

But they're never going to own the mistake , uh , or even raise their hand to offer that there was a mistake , if they know they're in an environment where the boss is going to beat them over their head with that mistake .

I really believe . Um , I don't want to say the majority , but I know there are masses and masses of people who go to work every single day With no opinion and they've become completely apathetic because it's been beaten out of them , figuratively speaking right , and what a miserable way right to make a little shame man . What a shame .

Yeah , and I , you know I'm not naive . Look , I get it as you ascend throughout your career and you take on bigger and bigger responsibilities , and that's not . I don't want to appear naive .

Once you have a little bit of money in the bank things you know you do behave a little differently , and sometimes having the years of experience plus a little bit of a nest egg Can be liberating . You can behave in a way that's a little more outspoken than if you're trying to make your way . I'm not naive , that .

I don't want your listeners to think this is some guy that doesn't get it . But what I would add to that , though , is you have a right to be happy in what you do . You don't have to love your job .

I would hope you love your career , but you may not like stops along that journey that I would call jobs that aren't part of your career , like I sold shoes right out high school . The first three years of my During high school , rather , I knew it wasn't my career , but it was a job .

So what I try to convince folks to to remember is whether I'm flipping burgers , whether I am selling shoes , or whether I'm leading 15,000 people at a fortune 10 firm . You're still interacting with and serving people and , nope , you're not gonna love every single day . It won't be rainbows and unicorns You're gonna get .

You're gonna have rough days , you can have rough patches , but I think if we can focus on the learning opportunities that come through those rough patches , you're better prepared for the next time it happens at a bigger scale . So , yeah , it's to me , it's . We have a right to be happy , but I'm not naive .

You're not gonna spring out of bed every single morning and be , you know , ecstatic to go do what it , whatever it is that you do . And the challenge , I believe , is when it does it get , when it gets really stale , you feel like you're not fulfilled or you've lost the optimism .

Matter once had you said something like this earlier , sonny , shifting your lens and your view into helping others Find fulfillment and find the impact that they so desperately crave . That's so much more rewarding than even Like personal achievements or accolades that I was able to deliver throughout my careers . Watching other people find theirs , that's the cool part .

For me it does like watching the transformation of a Crusty old leader who , you know , nobody likes to work with . He's more of a Boston . He is the leader , somebody that people don't , they don't long to be on his team , like it's just someone that's got that reputation .

Helping that person become someone that people are really excited to be a part of that team Is really fun to watch . So helping them find because , look , we all enter the workforce with passion , we all enter it with optimism , we all want to make an impact .

And there's this expression that I think all a lot of us , I know I did fall prey to , and that's they pay you to forget your dreams , right ? So we just start clocking in , clocking out , keep our head down and just keep going through the motions the next promotion , maybe another company , this raise , that raise , whatever but we lose sight of that passion .

Helping people find that is so freakin powerful and fun to me and it's what drives me now .

That's a tough transformation to drive and for me , I've been able to make some hay and progress in that in that way with my coaching business , by first sharing hey , I get it , I was that person as well .

You feel like you got to be perfect . You have to have all of the answers , your focus more on the results . But let me tell you this and then I'd like to give specific examples , including names of people who that , who I have worked with and helped . You know their journey , their transformation .

So many come to mind and when I share those specific examples , oh , that reminds me of so-and-so who had this problem and you know how we work through that and I would share , I share specific examples and and then I , and then there's an element of trust . They have to see that what I'm saying I have no , I have no dog in this hunt , right ?

I'm here to help you . I want you to be better than you were yesterday . Trust me when I say x , y or z . Trust me when I say if you lead With empathy and compassion and vulnerability , put your ego aside for a moment . Your team starts to sense that you're in it for them more than you are for yourself .

The results start to come Way more naturally and more easily than you ever imagined , because you're not banging your fists on the desk , but somehow the results are there . I don't . There are people that are not coachable . There are individuals that , and their results would tell you . That's why I'm not coachable .

Because I am Making a ton of money or my results are great , but the question they're not asking is at what cost ? Who am I alienating ? You know what ? Am I asking others to give up an exchange for this pace that I'm asking them to run ? And now you know I talk about leadership legacy a lot . I want to be .

I want to be known as a leader who helped people along their journey and help them be better than they were the day before or the year before that hard charger who bangs their fists on the desk . They're not going to be known for anything other than caring about themselves and the results they delivered , and I just think that's a , that's a hollow existence .

Um , I don't want to be known for that any longer .

How , how did you craft that to be top of the line , to lead off everything else and then talk a little bit more about that ?

And I knew there was a . They were very tenured .

The group of people I was meeting with the next morning I think the average tenure well , I know the average tenure of my direct reports at that time was north of 10 years in the same role , and I had just joined the firm and I was asked to lead a transformation and and kind of really push for better results .

So the night before I was in my hotel room just banging away on my keyboard . I had no idea what I was going to say . I just knew I wanted to be the leader . And this this is when I started to kind of really realize that I had an opportunity to be a better and different leader .

And I knew if I walked into this group with a start shirt , some shiny shoes and said all the things that I was going to do for them and how I was going to lead them , or I was the guy that was going to make this change for all of us , I would lose them . So it was important to me to to , and that's why I should add .

Probably two hours later , I had 10 sentences in front of me that each started with the word we . I'm not super creative , so I went with hey , these are the 10 weeks . And the next morning I walked out and shared it with that group . But to your question number one is so conspicuously .

Number one because if we're not aligned on doing the right thing like doing the right thing always , no matter if it's more expensive , no matter if it's harder , no matter if it takes longer , you know , no matter what the scenario is , we must do the right thing . And then always there's a one word sentence for that one too .

That that follows , and it's always . Now we can disagree on what the right thing is , and that does happen . But if the team knows that as their leader , I am focused on doing the right thing , even if it costs us money , we are , we are kind of speaking the same language .

I do create a filter , or I've added a filter to this we , and that is in this order . If we can do right by our company , number one and people might say , oh , there's some corporate guy being , you know , he's anti employees company first . Well , if there's no company , there's no client .

So number two is if we're going to do the right thing , we want to do the right thing in the eyes of the company , but then the client , and lastly the crew . If I'm trying to make a decision , or the team we're working together to make a decision , if I can check all three of those cohorts home run , I'm thrilled .

If I live with two , and if I must , I'll live with one , but what is conspicuously missing is me . There's no I . So when we try to make decisions to do the right thing , if we insert the impact on ourselves , we're , our bias creeps in and there's just no way we're making the right decision .

So we focus through those three lenses , first and foremost doing the right thing . The rest of the 10 ways are a lot easier to follow and to subscribe .

Now , let's not forget though , sonny , these are principles , and I think a lot of people don't necessarily remember the word principle , by definition , is it's a fundamental truth , it is our system of beliefs , things that we hold to be true .

So my goal , with everyone I work with now , is to get a team to align around a series of principles , our fundamental truths , the things that we hold to be true . So when we behave in a way that's contrary to anyone's principles , it's so much easier to have those difficult conversations . For example , we challenge each other . I touched on it earlier , right ?

So if I'm going to challenge you in a meeting you and I are in a meeting together with a bunch of people watching , and I have to issue a challenge to you I will literally premise that challenge by saying hey , sonny , we challenge each other . Right , you subscribe to these principles . You're on board . You've already said , you're part of this team .

These are your fundamental truths , your beliefs as well . It lowers the anxiety in the room because you know that the person issuing the challenge is coming from a place of good intention . I'm not just trying to be a jerk , air my opinions , but without number one , everything else is a house of cards . We must do the right thing at all times , always .

By the way , on a personal level , that includes bringing my grocery cart back from the parking lot . That's the right thing to do .

So when I realized and it hit me literally , it hit me when I was pushing the shopping cart out to my truck , unloaded the groceries and I started to leave it because I'd done it my whole life that way , I thought hang on , dude , that's not the right thing . You know better . That's not the right thing . Yeah , they pay somebody , they pay me .

You know this cart belongs up there . You will never , no matter rain , shine , hurricane , whatever , you will never see me not take my grocery cart back . So that's a silly example , but I think those silly examples lead to bigger kind of discipline type things .

I think that is profound , because everybody you shouldn't say everybody a lot of people have really great ideas and if we never take action on those ideas , it's for nothing .

We'll stick to the workplace , but we see those opportunities every single day and a lot of times we don't raise our hands to point out those opportunities , because you know what happens in the corporate world when you raise your hand that there's a problem , you get more work and that's not . That's not incentive to identify where something needs to be addressed .

I learned this early , early on in my career when I was running big call centers . I had call centers around the world and I would go , I would visit the call centers every month , I would go on a little bit of a tour and visit different locations and it almost always happened Suddenly .

I would , I'd be sitting next to a call center rep and you know they're flying through their script and they're entering data , whatever it is that that transaction they were processing , and they would fly so quickly and I would say why did you do this or why did you do that ?

You know I was asking a lot of questions and I said and then , every , every now and then , more often than not , I would see what I would describe as a shortcut . You know , why did you do this this way ? And it was .

The answer was almost always a different version of the following Well , they train us to do this way , but I have found this way is more effective . It protects the customer experience .

Or if I don't do this , this happens but when I do , like they have found their own workarounds right , but they've not raised their hand to say why do we do it this way , right ? So I would rather my teams recognize an opportunity for improvement or something that needs to be addressed , raise their hand let's talk about who's the person to address it .

Just because you identify it doesn't mean it's on your plate and take action on it and then be very , very comfortable and outspoken that you're probably going to make mistakes because this thing has been sitting out here waiting for someone to address it , so it's probably complex or it's something that's never been addressed at all .

We don't know how this is going to work , so we got to expect mistakes . I want my teams to take action , identify where work needs to get done and if they fail or they stumble , that's okay .

I would rather us be wrong taking action than sit around and be idle , because being idle is like a recipe for stagnation which drives mediocrity , and in almost every industry , mediocrity is a recipe You're going to get lapped , you're just going to get lapped , and it's not an environment I think anyone wants to be a part of .

Yeah , unless you're okay with mediocrity , that is .

What is a popular opinion of the world that you just don't buy into ?

We must be better at disagreeing for whatever reason , through the course of it , and I think it's much more prevalent now than it was maybe five or 10 years ago . The world has a hard time . People of the world , I should say , has a hard time .

We have a hard time disagreeing with one another without villainizing the other side , and you see it on social media , you see it in all walks of all opinions . We can disagree . We can disagree and I can be , regardless of my political affiliation .

For the best example , I can be friends and socialize and think the world of someone with a very different orientation . I have a very good friend , someone who helped me a whole lot write my book . She's married to a pastor . They're very , very religious . They're very spiritual . I happen to not be incredibly spiritual , I'm just .

I wasn't raised in a church environment . We have very different worldviews . She is at the very top of the list of people I have tremendous respect for . We disagree openly .

She knows I have a different slant on things than she does , and vice versa , but it's out of those disagreements where we can find nuggets of information , we can get informed , we can learn things we weren't aware of before , not in an effort to change that person's mind , but in an effort to educate them , to maybe lower some of the hate and the bad and ill

will we have towards one another just because of something that on the surface we disagree with . I know I didn't exactly answer your question . I think I don't think it's a misconception . I just think it's a lost art of disagreeing . We can still be pals . I don't have to hate you because you have a different opinion of me or of something than I do .

I feel like I can , and it's in different ways , and different seasons of my life , I've had a lot of experience and a lot of wisdom and a lot of missteps and mistakes , to a point where there is little in this world that I don't think I can achieve or get to or create . For me , that's a really , really cool place to be .

When I finally told my wife my fiance at the time that I was going to write this book , then I was committed . It was going to happen .

When I have come to the conclusion since then that the level of success I have and today I define success on evangelizing these principles , spreading the word , helping people be better leaders , helping companies have less toxic and dysfunctional environments , that success for me has nothing to do with money .

Now , my level of success and having it all , the way you frame it , is directly connected to my level of effort and stick-to-it-iveness . So , said differently , very similar to the way you approached it is you can have it all you can . It's just a matter of how much you're willing to put into having that all .

Nobody wakes up and has it all , but you can put in the work to have it all . I love that , Sonny . That's very inspiring .

So where can they get the book ? Where can they find you ? Follow your content , bring you in to see .

I respond as almost to every single message that I get , whether it's a hey , I'm dealing with this situation at work or I'm contemplating making a job change . Do you have any advice for me on this ?

Because I was that person who had those same questions , didn't always get the right opportunity or the right mentor to ask someone of those questions , so I would love to hear from your audience in ways that I might be able to help them on their journey as well .

Kyle , thank you so much for your time and imparting all of your wisdom and experience that you shared for this last hour .

this episode . It would mean the world for me if you would rate and review the podcast or share it with someone you know . Many to hear this message . I love to hear from you all and want you to know that you can leave me a voicemail directly .

If you go to my website , evokegreatnesscom , and go to the contact me tab , you'll just hit the big ol orange button and record your message . I love the feedback and comments that I've been getting , so please keep them coming . I'll leave you with the wise words of author Robin Sharma Greatness comes by doing a few small and smart things each and every day .

It comes from taking little steps consistently . It comes from making a few small chips against everything in your professional and personal life that is ordinary , so that a day eventually arrives when all that's left is the extraordinary .