¶ Setting Healthy Boundaries in Leadership
Welcome to Evoke Greatness . We are officially entering year three of this podcast and I am filled with so much gratitude for each and every one of you who've joined me on this incredible journey of growth and self-discovery . I'm Sunny , your host and fellow traveler on this path of personal evolution .
This podcast is a sanctuary for the curious , the ambitious and the introspective . It's for those of you who , like me , are captivated by the champion mindset and driven by an insatiable hunger for growth and knowledge .
Whether you're just beginning your journey or you're well along your path , you're going to find stories here that resonate with your experiences and aspirations . Over the last two years , we've shared countless stories of triumph and challenge , of resilience and transformation . We've laughed , we've reflected and we've grown together .
And as we've evolved , so too has this podcast . Remember , no matter what chapter you're on in your own story , you belong here . This community we've built together is a place of support , inspiration and shared growth . Where intention goes , energy flows , and the energy you bring to this space elevates us all .
So , whether you're listening while commuting , working out or enjoying your morning coffee , perhaps from one of those motivational mugs I'm so fond of , know that you're a part of something special . Thank you for being here . Thank you for your curiosity , your openness and your commitment to personal growth .
As we embark on year three , I invite you to lean in , to listen deeply and to let these stories resonate with your soul . I believe that a rising tide raises all ships and I invite you along in this journey to evoke greatness . Welcome back to part two with my guest , dr Lisa Orbe-Austin .
In this episode , we're going to talk through navigating senior leadership roles while maintaining work-life integration , setting and modeling healthy boundaries , creating psychological safety in workplace cultures and preparing the next generation of leaders .
And if you haven't yet , make sure to go back and listen to part one , where we deep dive how much success often looks different than we initially imagined . The fact that leadership comes in many authentic forms and there isn't one right way to lead .
The fact that imposter syndrome can significantly impact how we develop our teams and the way that , as leaders , we share our struggles can actually free others to acknowledge and overcome their own . I hope you've enjoyed it so far . Let's go ahead and hop into it .
The women in our audience are often juggling high stakes leadership roles with managing full lives outside of work . How have you seen top performers shift their perspective on that . You know air quotes , having it all , and what that means , particularly as they gain more influence and responsibility .
Yeah , I mean , I think I often hear this from people who are like middle management , but they're like you know who you know recently , you know , either got married or thinking about starting a family , and they've often said to me I don't want to grow in my career , because growing in my career means more , like I'll have to spend more time , more this , more
that , and I don't think I can do both .
And I think what is so important for us as women , as we kind of grow in our careers , is recognizing that we , if we take up our power and we choose the right environments , we can work normal hours and be senior and do what we need to do and still , like I was just talking to someone today who's like a president of an organization and she was saying you
know , I start my morning off and I work out and I tell them this help me by telling my dark reports . Like I don't talk to anyone during that time , I compromise with no one . Like I pick up my son at a certain hour and nobody talks to me . So she's taken up her power so that her life can be balanced .
And I think you , you have to think about with more responsibility doesn't necessarily come more hours . It just means sort of learning to work in a way that your life fits into your work life and modeling that for other women , because we'll never survive in this workplace that was built for men If we work like men .
We have to work in the context of how our lives fit , you know , and so I do think it's so important . Boundaries are important , not overworking is important . Try not to prove yourself as important , really just taking up your confidence and your power and really using it to kind of craft the life and the career you want to craft .
And I've seen it time and time again , you can . You can have a normal life and you can raise a family and you can have really senior positions . I see it all the time in my practice all the time , but it's not typical .
But you do carve out the pathway for others to do the same yeah , and that type of self-care and boundaries are what lead to us not only being physically healthy , but really strong and healthy mental health as well , and that is so important because we can tip those scales the really wrong way , and not only does that erode our physical health , but our mental
health as well . And I think we see probably a bigger struggle today , or maybe we're talking about it , shining a light on it more than ever . But you're right when someone says hey , it's not unrealistic to say hey during this period of time . This is my do not disturb time . I will holler at you as soon as I'm done here .
But establishing that boundary and then having people respect that boundary , that's a really important relationship to have .
Yeah , and I think it's you know this leader that I was talking to this morning .
One of the things she said to me was , like I tell my direct reports what my boundaries are , and then I asked them to tell me what their boundaries are , because she said the company is a building , you know , but I represent the company and I'm going to try to get as much out of you as I can , and you have to let me know what your boundaries are or
I'll keep thinking , you know , I won't know that there are boundaries . And so I think it was such a beautiful way to kind of articulate the fact that you know not only do you have to respect your own boundaries , but you have to respect other people , and they will be different from yours .
It won't be that you happen to match up your extra sky schedules or pickup schedule . You'll have to accommodate it , but you also want yours accommodated , and so I think it's such an important way to think about setting boundaries and building culture around it .
I think it's so important , but it's complicated , it's not simple , but I think you know it is important , especially for women , to be able to have balance , and I do think you're . You are absolutely right .
I don't know if we're talking about mental health more in the workplace or if there's just greater you know , greater awareness , or if there's greater issues , but I am hearing this conversation , like everywhere , about you know people's mental health , suffering from their , the impact directly of work , you know , and feeling like they don't even know what to do do
because they're seeing people deteriorate mental health-wise but they don't have the skills or the knowledge about how to handle it at the workplace .
Yeah , and I love what you said about that reciprocal feedback right and getting sharing your boundaries and asking that of others . And I am new in a role . I just accepted a position as a CEO with a company just a couple weeks ago .
Congratulations .
I'm so excited , thank you . I say this because I want everybody to know you can teach an old dog new tricks . Right , we can change the way we lead and model an example , because , as you said , that I'm working right now to get to know my team members what works for them , what doesn't , but I never thought about asking them what are your boundaries ?
And so that is going to be a piece that I insert into my kind of get to know you side of things , because I do want to know . I expect 150% right Now . Is that possible all the time ? No , it's not .
I'm not going to be able to give 150% all the time , but when I share what my boundaries are and then I actually ask for what theirs are , we're exhibiting to people that their boundaries are important as well , and if we don't know them how can we respect them ?
Absolutely , and that we're also saying you don't have to get to a point where you need to set boundaries in order to tell me what they are . You can tell me them up front .
And I think what she also said , which I thought was really helpful , is because nobody's been asked this question , a lot of them just looked at her and kind of was like I don't know what to do with this , and she let them kind of go away and think about their boundaries and then come back and tell her also that these were kind of movable targets , like if
they changed , to let her know , you know .
So I do think like it's such a continuing ongoing conversation , but I think such an important one to have healthier environments where there is psychological safety and people can protect their mental well-being and can have more than just a work life and have a personal life , and so I'm all for teaching old dogs and old systems new tricks .
So I love the idea that we could go around and do something different . That would be better for ourselves and better for others .
Yeah , and I would encourage you know those who are seasoned leaders , who are , who have their routine shake it up a little bit , throw , throw in some things that shake it up a little bit and and stretch your own self , stretch the way in which you lead and and think outside of that normal box that sometimes gets comfortable .
Think about what's uncomfortable again , like in the best possible way , but I think that would surprise sometimes the people around you is when you're willing to look at something maybe with a little bit of a different lens .
Absolutely and I think you know , thinking about like that particular like lens that you want to open up , it can be really helpful , and I do , I do really believe , like it .
You know , I remember a supervisor once telling me this in my training but he was like never stop learning and never stop being uncomfortable , that you don't know , and I thought it was such a good point because he's like it doesn't have to be therapy or psychology , it could be like learning a new skill .
But he's like there's such a discomfort with learning a new skill . You always have to be in that discomfort because when , as a therapist , you're asking someone to make changes , you have to understand how hard that is and what kind of effort they're putting into making changes because you're trying something new . I think the same is true for leaders .
If you're asking them to do something for you or learn or stretch , you should also be learning , stretching and understanding emotionally what that feels like .
Yeah , well , there's a it's interesting because I heard this for years and I never fully understood it working more in a kind of a team capacity and maybe mid and even senior level management . But when you get to that C-suite or that boardroom there's a unique kind of loneliness that can come with being one of the few women there .
What insights have you gained about building genuine connections and those support systems at that level , especially when vulnerability feels risky ?
Yeah , it's so true . I mean , I think you know , as the women that I work with get more senior , they do get lonelier , and I do think I'm often encouraging them , if they can't find support within the system , to find other opportunities to meet with senior leaders .
You know , women there's all kinds of organizations that are trying to talk to women leaders but to find these organizations so that they connect with other people at the same level , so that they don't feel alone .
Because I do also think even when there are a couple of women in the organization that are leaders , they're often turned against each other in a lot of ways and they can . I would hope that they can form a connection amongst each other
¶ Building Relationships and Redefining Success
. But if you can't because of the way the system is set up , find it outside and try not to in some ways propagate women coming after women at that senior level and really try to build with them , because I do think we are greater and stronger in numbers when we are doing this together . They want to separate us for a reason .
It becomes harder for us to have power . We don't have blocks , they've got blocks . You know , men have blocks . We don't have power . We need blocks of power too . Even if we don't love somebody 100% , they can still be helpful and an ally in a lot of ways , and so I do think it's really important to find community and to not be alone .
It is so important to be able to rise up the ladder because men are doing it , they're sharing information about how they got where they got and the insider tips and the relationships , and women are just working hard oftentimes and you have to be doing the other pieces too of building relationships looking at your next thing , figuring out angling , being strategic
with your own career and I do think relationships , I think , play the most important part of that .
Yeah , and I think that also requires getting uncomfortable right , and if you want to make a connection with another executive woman , whether it's in your sphere or not , be willing to ask .
And sometimes it's going to be the uncomfortable no , like , no , I don't want to connect , no , I can't mentor you , no , you know whatever , like I , just I'm super busy right now . There's going to be the no .
There's also going to be the yes , because there are a lot of women out there Surprisingly I think some people don't recognize this there's a lot of women out there who are like how can I show up for you and support you ?
And sometimes we're in this safe box again , not wanting to take a risk because I don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing . Well , no , we all need support .
Yeah , yeah , and I think you know , oftentimes what I see is less of the no the no happens really rarely but just more of the ignoring , and people take the ignoring as painful as the no sometimes . But I think you also have to recognize sometimes there's other things going on for that person why they can't support you .
They're too busy , they're overwhelmed , they're maybe changing jobs , careers .
So I think just try to think of the most positive thing you can about them if they don't respond , and keep trying , because there will be people who say yes and people who want , who believe in the mission of supporting other women leaders and know how difficult it is and how rare it is , and so I do think it's don't do it alone .
I think it does something to a person to be doing it alone .
Yeah , you've observed that as women reach senior positions , their definition of success often undergoes a profound evolution .
How do you guide leaders in rewriting their narrative of achievement , especially when they're blazing trails for the next generation or for yeah , I mean I think you know I'm very much really interested before , the legacy and in what they want for themselves , and so I'm really thinking about , like , especially with imposter syndrome .
So imposter syndrome has a very narrow definition of success , you know , and it's been groomed in you over the years . So your parents had some idea , like your teachers had some idea . Eventually some bosses had some idea , and what happens when you have imposter syndrome often is that you don't have an idea of what success means .
It means whatever someone would be proud of you for doing , whatever they're recommending you for , and I think one of the things becomes super important is taking control of your own career and your own idea of what success
¶ Parenting to Prevent Imposter Syndrome
means . Success may have nothing to do with money or title . It may have something to do with something else , and that is the thing you should aim toward then , and then I think you will create a legacy for the people who are like you and who have not had the opportunity yet to redefine the success for themselves .
And so I do think it's really about finding , really having a deep dive . Look at what does it mean for you . It may not have anything to do with career . It might , it actually might have something specific to do with career , but I think it's really important to figure out what is .
My own definitions separate from the people I've looked to for validation before , and it might be very different from what even they want .
As women kind of progress into their careers . The most powerful women executives often speak of moments that they had to unlearn everything that they like those preconceived notions that you had about leadership .
What do you think you have witnessed as a transformative shift in working with women who are senior and executive leaders , in them going through the process of kind of unpacking and unlearning some of those things that they had built so strongly in their minds ?
I mean , I think it really when they were kind of doing the unpacking and thinking about , sort of like , how they want to lead . That's different from how they were taught to lead .
I think oftentimes they recognize the ways in which those other ways while they seem universal , they seem like the only way to do things were also negatively impactful on their own lives and careers and the people around them .
And so I think what I experienced from my leaders is that you know they're looking for a better , gentler , kinder way to run an organization where people are not having to like become damaged as a result of their experience at the organization .
It's not always easy , because sometimes the organization itself is toxic and you're just trying to keep your team , you know not , not toxic .
And but I think it's so important to them I think oftentimes to to try things differently , to build relationships differently , and sometimes that comes with a lot of doubts from other , from other leaders , like what are you doing over there ? You know , like it's all like touchy feely over there . Why do you care ? What's happening with your direct report ?
And so I do think that like it does often receive a lot of criticism , especially from people holding these traditional stances , but I don't think you're aiming toward getting approval from them .
You're aiming towards figuring out , like , whatever your goal is , whether it's create a cohesive team , whether it's to kind of make sure that you have a team that you know values , the work , values being there with you , but you know so it depends on what your goals are .
But I don't often think that the women that I work with want to replicate a model that often didn't . They may have survived it , but it wasn't meant for them and they didn't necessarily holistically benefit from it .
Yeah , that's an important word , though they were surviving in that space . But is that the environment in which you want to create for others right , and shedding some of those limiting beliefs or those limitations that we put on ourselves again , so that the environment thrives not just us , not just our team , but that ?
we're really promoting that . Yeah , exactly , and there's some place for people to see something different that works . You know Right .
Well , you have something coming up in February , something really exciting . You've got your next book , your Child's Greatness . Tell us a little bit about it and what was the intent of writing it .
Yeah , so imposter syndrome begins in childhood .
It begins with the expectations and the kind of ideas around success and failure that we're raised with , and so to target this early so that people don't develop it , we always thought about developing a book on parenting and things that we want to kind of push and support and things that we may want to change and alter , and so this book was really about .
That is , about sort of things that you need to consider around your child's development , around issues of perfectionism and issues of performance , anxiety and all of these different themes that relate specifically to imposter syndrome and how to approach them in a bit of a different manner so they don't develop these experiences .
And I think we always had this thought that when we go out and do talks at organizations to leaders , oftentimes they would often ask about their kids . It was really interesting and I would be like that is so interesting , like their kid isn't even here , like , but they would think about their kids and then they would ask like how do I prevent this ?
Or I see this developing in my child , how can I , you know , work on stopping it ? Because also it can be transgenerational . So if you struggle with imposter syndrome , in essence , you're modeling that for your children and that also can affect the way that they see how you interact with the world of work .
And so , you know , I think it's a it sort of feels like a natural progression , because the first book is about overcoming a posture individually , the second book was about managers , leaders , culture , and this book is about sort of our children , and so I feel like this is sort of like .
You know , for me it's like the full rounded work that I wanted to do on it .
I love that and I look forward to it . I will definitely be grabbing a copy . I encourage everyone else to as well . It's going to be out February 11th . But as we think about it , you know , we often we've been talking even about the modeling that we do in the office or the modeling we do with our team .
But , dang , we got to step back a little bit and remember we're only there for eight , whatever hours a day , but we're home the rest of the time . And so what are we modeling at home ?
And being willing to confront those things and have the self-awareness in service of you're , seeking to get better right , let's make sure that we kind of shed some of that imposter syndrome and the unintended consequences that come with it , for the sake of our children and what kind of leaders and people they're going to grow up to be .
They're going to be . Yeah , and talking about like legacy earlier , that is also part of your legacy of children is like the way that they end up entering the world . So I do think it's such important piece of the work . It's for me it's like a whole reset to you .
It's like you know , let's get it nipped in the bud early so that we don't have to deal with it as leaders later on .
Yeah Well , my last question is one that I always love to ask people and get their insights . And so if it were your last day on earth and you have thought about all the experiences and wisdom that you have acquired over your lifetime , what is the one piece of advice that you would impart before you go ?
Good question . I would say be brave and think big . It's something I didn't really do early on and I did not . You know , I was brave , but not in service of thinking big , just surviving . But I think I would . I would dream big for myself .
Love it . Well , lisa , I would love for you to share . I'll put all this in the show notes , but where can people find you ? Follow you get copies of all of your books . Find out more about the services that you provide .
Yeah , so my books are available in all major booksellers Amazon , Barnes , Noble you know local independent places too . I'm also on Instagram at Dr Orbe Austin , where I post I've been a little shaky over the summer because of book reserves being written and I'm also on LinkedIn . I'm a LinkedIn top voice , so you can find me talking about things there .
My company is called Dynamic Transition Psychological Consultancy , the website of all the services that we tend to offer .
Excellent , excellent . Well , as I said , I'll put all of that in the show notes . Thank you for coming on . Thank you for using your wisdom and experience and story and lessons you've acquired to be able to share with others in their pursuit of greatness .
Thank you for inviting me .
Thank you so much for listening and for being here on this journey with me . I hope you'll stick around If you liked this episode . It would mean the world for me if you would rate and review the podcast or share it with someone you know may need to hear this message .
I love to hear from you all and want you to know that you can leave me a voicemail directly . If you go to my website , evokegreatnesscom , and go to the contact me tab , you'll just hit the big old orange button and record your message . I love the feedback and comments that I've been getting , so please keep them coming .
I'll leave you with the wise words of author Robin Sharma Greatness comes by doing a few small and smart things each and every day . It comes from taking little steps consistently .
It comes from making a few small chips against everything in your professional and personal life that is ordinary , so that a day eventually arrives when all that's left is the extraordinary .