EMB EP20 | The Beauty of Burning Bright with Dr. Jason Young

Shannon Scott (00:02.624) Well, Jason Young, Dr. Jason Young, should I call you Dr. Jason? Jason Young (00:07.054) Well, you know, you can get anything off the internet. So yeah, yeah. Shannon Scott (00:12.588) Exactly. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on the Everything Made Beautiful podcast. This is a conversation that I've wanted to have with you. In fact, before I ever launched this podcast many months ago, maybe a year ago now, I said, I want you on a guest whenever I want you on as a guest when I start my podcast. So I'm glad that we're getting to do this. Thank you for saying yes. Jason Young (00:35.947) my pleasure. Thank you, Shannon. Shannon Scott (00:38.08) Well, so I've given your official bio that everybody has heard, but I am excited because I know how much you have to offer. And I know we won't get it all today, which makes me sad, but I know that we're going to get a lot, which is great because you and I met when I was on a leadership team at the school our kids were in, in Loganville, Loganville Christian Academy, and you were doing leadership. coaching and development for us. And I knew you and of you before that, but I got to see you really in your gifting as a leadership coach, just coaching our team at that school and have loved everything that you have done since then. I have followed it closely and you have a book, you have several books and everyone should read them all and I will put them in the show notes. But today, I want to talk about your book, Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright that you wrote with Jonathan Malm. And I love this book. I have quotes from it. I have all kinds of questions, but I just would love to start with why did you write it? What's the basic premise of it? And then I'd love to dig into some things. And before you answer, I'll say this. Anytime I see something with the word burnout, my interest is piqued and I don't think that's because I'm in burnout, but I do think there have been many seasons of my life where I have probably been burnout adjacent. And so there's something that kind of calls to me when there's a solution to that feeling. And so that's one of the reasons I'm grateful for this. So take it away. Jason Young (02:11.448) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (02:22.328) Yeah, well, a fun part of the story that rarely gets told is the publisher actually rejected the idea to begin with. And it was a bit frustrating because they said, and I had already done four books with them, and they said the market is saturated. And so kind of did some research. And, know, in their defense, they were right. The market was saturated. However, Shannon Scott (02:32.599) Wow. Jason Young (02:51.106) then why was burnout still rising? And the rejection, and that might be a dramatic word, but the hey, cute, but no thanks response was actually really helpful because what I discovered kind of stepping back and revisiting things was, you know what? They were right. A lot of books are written about burnout on the back end. You're here, what do you do now? But there were not a lot of books on the front end of What if I didn't even have to get to the back end? Like, is there a way if I've got to put in the front end or back end, what if I could choose the front end? So we literally took the book, inverted it and said, you know what? This is more about how to prevent burnout and maybe not even that. It's really how do you protect? How do you keep your joy and work in life? And so that's kind of how it came to to fruition. The driver of the book. Shannon Scott (03:23.756) Yeah. Jason Young (03:50.868) Neither of us, Jonathan and I, were at a place of burnout. So that isn't really where it came from. But it did come from working with people who were experiencing it. I think I was experiencing a little bit of the exhaustion side. So in looking back, and then as I thought about phrases I heard in undergrad and grad and different educational programs, was like, was this badge of honor because that mean you laid it all out. You gave it all. And so if you did that, it just is like a byproduct and like it is what it is. And that's where one of the phrases began to surface in burnout and leadership is not inevitable. Like we don't have to accept it that way. And so kind of the birth of this book came about of if it's not inevitable, what can we do to actually not get there and keep up our joy? Shannon Scott (04:17.942) Hmm. Shannon Scott (04:40.716) That's such an interesting point that you made of like, yes, the market was saturated, but it wasn't working. And so just because there's a lot of information out there about something, if the problem's not being solved, then there's always room for solutions. That's so good. So for the purposes of this, just would you define burnout for this conversation? And then what are some of the warning signs that you may be approaching burnout? Jason Young (05:11.084) Yeah, I might even take two steps back from burnout. So burnout is one of those things, this isn't new to anybody, anybody listening, watching right now, you'll say, yeah, of course. We don't wake up and burn out. Like, how did I get here? It's it's overnight. Two steps back from that, if you think of of progression, we all experience stress, and stress is rather normal. It's where we can worry or have mental tension. Shannon Scott (05:13.741) Yeah. Jason Young (05:40.652) because there's been a difficult situation, could be something in your family, work, finances, something inside of you nobody knows about, so you have this stress. that, if we're not careful, snowballs and we could find ourselves at a place of exhaustion. And when you think about like exhaustion, it's like the stress has kind of stayed around a little longer or the stress has accumulated a little bit too much. But if we can adjust a few levers like hobbies, calendar, sleep, exercise, like, if we can move a few levers, we can actually bounce back to a healthier place. So stress, exhaustion, and then that's where we find ourselves in burnout. And burnout in essence is a psychological syndrome that comes as a result of being exposed to an enormous amount of stress for a prolonged period of time. Shannon Scott (06:39.277) Mm. Jason Young (06:39.426) I didn't deal with it when it was just stress. I didn't deal with it when it was just exhaustion. So I find myself at a place of burnout that warning signs could include, I don't care about things or people like I used to. Why? I can't figure it out. have an incredible brain fog. My energy is like just, it's down in the dumps. I'm constantly discouraged. I notice increased irritability, especially with people close to me. I'm not as creative or I'm not an idea generator maybe like I used to. I don't lack courage. I mean, I don't have courage. I actually lack it, so I'm unwilling to try new things. And on the spiritual side, I don't even really want to spend time with God because it boils down to this. I just ain't got nothing left in the tank. So here's what's interesting. With exhaustion, you can bounce back from... Shannon Scott (07:12.6) Mm. Jason Young (07:36.056) But you cannot bounce back from burnout. You crawl out of burnout because you don't have anything left in the tank. And so the idea of this book is what if we could prevent that? And even if you're there, this book is still for you. What can we do incrementally to be encouraging and helpful so you can have that joy that you used to have? Shannon Scott (07:42.541) Wow. Shannon Scott (07:56.492) Wow, that's, I'm literally, I have to say I've done a lot of these podcasts and I'm taking notes in real time instead of just going, gotta go back and listen to that. I'm literally writing stuff down. So we live in a culture though that glorifies hustle. In fact, Jason Young (08:17.656) Yes. Shannon Scott (08:20.44) I mentioned at some point that in this kind of new season I've embarked on of, you know, I've left a church staff that I loved and now I'm kind of on my own quote unquote. But I said to someone, you know, I really feel a conviction that I'm not supposed to hustle my way into whatever is next. And the person stopped me who meant well and said, I don't think you mean hustle. I think you mean striving. Jason Young (08:42.286) you Shannon Scott (08:49.036) you know, because scripture says to see striving, but I did mean hustle. Like there's a glorification of hustle that if I'm not careful will overtake me. It just will because I'm a high capacity, high performing, high, I want to take lots of ground and I will be a slave to hustle. So in the book, the first quote that I wrote down is this was about hustle and you said, Jason Young (08:55.387) huh. Shannon Scott (09:18.452) Seasons of intense hard work are part of any high performing leadership role. The problem is when hustle becomes a lifestyle instead of a short term sprint to accomplish a goal. So talk a little bit about, yes, stress, exhaustion, and then eventually burnout. But when you live in a culture or work in a role that glorifies hustle and hard work, how do you find that balance? Jason Young (09:31.191) Yeah. Jason Young (09:45.294) Yeah. so if you're listening to this podcast right now, sometimes that we, this self-inflicted, because it comes to a, to a belief or approving of, and then other times you unfortunately are, you're stuck in a work culture that almost demands it or worse. rewards it. Shannon Scott (10:16.087) Hmm. Jason Young (10:17.378) And so I remember working on a church staff and I think the leader of the org meant well, but it was like Jason became kind of this banner guy of working hard and getting stuff done. mean, Jason like goes to bed at 12 or 1230 and gets up at four. And I think the leader meant well by it. Unfortunately, it backfired because the questions were, Is that guy really healthy? Like do I really want to be that guy? And you know what the reality was that the truth we're told like I probably wasn't the healthiest version of myself because I am a hard worker. But it was actually being rewarded. What we don't do is we don't reward healthy. The reason we don't, I think, or part of it is we actually don't even know what it looks like. Whereas the hustle we look. Shannon Scott (10:51.084) Yeah. Shannon Scott (11:13.591) Yeah. Jason Young (11:15.598) Okay, sleep, you work a lot of hours, you produce a lot of stuff, you're visible. Those are almost palpable things. so that's easier to define. But when we think about healthy is who gets introduced in a staff meeting? This is the person that knows how to say no to meetings and has wonderful boundaries. We wanna celebrate this person. I've never seen that because like, so why don't... Shannon Scott (11:37.846) you Jason Young (11:44.802) We don't celebrate that. So the idea we do sometimes demand hustle. We reward hustle. I'm all about working hard. mean, I'm a hard worker. Like I know you're a hard worker. We have hard workers listening to us. And I think we are designed to work hard in sprints, but I don't think that we have the capacity. Our shoulders aren't strong enough. Our hearts aren't strong enough. for this to go on and on and on and on and some people have actually disagreed with me when they read that part of the book they're like well I'm built differently. I'm like well I do believe the same person that built you built me. Shannon Scott (12:24.256) Yeah, that's good. Jason Young (12:25.772) And so when we think about how we're designed, I think we're designed that we can do things in seasons, but we have to be careful what we adopt as our lifestyle. Like what are the practices and beliefs and stories and things like that, that become our lifestyle. That maybe the dark side of this whole thing is I think sometimes we do stuff like this because we need what comes. So yeah, do stuff. want to do it, but I do stuff like this because I get acknowledgement from it. I do stuff like this because there's something satisfying that I built XYZ or I get more applause or I'm proving myself versus I'm adding value to the org or to my team or to my family, right? Shannon Scott (12:55.735) Ooh, say more. Jason Young (13:25.388) So really at that point it comes down like, what's my motive in this whole thing? So I do think. I do think that we live in the hustle hurry. And I'm not even saying, again, I think we should work hard. And maybe we have to hurry in a season, but I don't think we were made to do this as a lifestyle. And I've done this for many, many, many years. I'm like, and we could talk about this later, but I think I have done better at that because I think the Lord convicted me. I didn't design you to do this. This is your thing. So, like, how could I imagine a better way? Shannon Scott (14:08.536) Yeah. Shannon Scott (14:13.632) It's interesting that you mentioned hurrying because I've heard people say you just don't see any evidences in scripture that Jesus was ever in a hurry. Like he was never just rolling through the, know, quickly I got to get to the next meeting. Like more often he stayed where he was. So he delayed, you know, he quote delayed. And when somebody pointed that out, I thought, yeah, you know, Jason Young (14:32.77) Yeah. Yeah. Shannon Scott (14:43.752) Even apart from Jesus, you just don't see God in a hurry throughout scripture. So that is really good. I like that you said value add to the organization or the team or the family, because I think it'd be easy for maybe some people watching or listening to be like, well, that doesn't apply to me because I don't work outside the home. But you and I both have spent a lot of time also in the education space and have seen our share of parents. whose hustle is often connected to the amount of things that family is doing and those kids are doing. Almost like it's a badge of honor to be more involved in everything and indicative of laziness to say, we're not gonna do that. We're not gonna enroll so and so in that. We're not gonna take part in that. We're not gonna show up to that. So I'm glad that you said family because I do think this is for everybody. It's just a matter of what sphere. Jason Young (15:18.648) Yeah. Jason Young (15:22.093) Yeah. Jason Young (15:27.33) Yeah. Shannon Scott (15:43.128) for you it impacts. Jason Young (15:45.442) Well, and sometimes we, we, we, the statement is something we, we adopt. I do more. So I am more. And it's like, well, who told you that? You know, like it is that true. And so like, just keep doing it because it's like doing is elusive. It's like, I'm gonna do enough. Well, what's enough? It's like perfectionism, right? This is something I struggle with true vulnerability, confession moment, like, but Shannon Scott (15:53.271) Mm. Jason Young (16:14.802) It's like, know it's not a real thing because like it's elusive. As soon as I get close, it like it moves, right? And you like, I've never caught it. And I think sometimes this hustle idea is you never catch it, but I can promise you it will catch up with you. So. Shannon Scott (16:30.914) Yeah, yeah. You mentioned perfectionism. That's literally the next quote that I took from the book because we both know that I struggle with perfectionism. I used to say I was a recovering perfectionist, but I'm not sure I'm ever going to recover from that particular struggle. But you said on perfectionism, if you strive for perfection, you'll never hit it and you'll always be frustrated, which is true. Jason Young (16:40.558) Ha Jason Young (16:45.42) Yeah. Jason Young (16:57.08) Yeah. Shannon Scott (16:57.698) But when the goal is improvement, you can actually see progress and have something worth celebrating. And that has been helpful to me. I wrote it down because a lot of people will say, you don't need to go for perfectionism. You need to go for good enough. And man, that kills me. That sounds like settling for less than the best. But when the goal is improvement, did I improve? Jason Young (17:05.112) Yeah. Jason Young (17:18.231) Yeah. Yes, yes. Shannon Scott (17:27.714) this or is this an improved contribution to what was before? That has been more helpful for me than it's good enough. I don't even know how to wrap my mind around that. Jason Young (17:41.262) Yeah, well, and when you think about perfectionism, again, there's so much material out that smarter people than myself understand like what drives that. And maybe there's an element of fear the way you were always asked this question when I worked with leaders, like what's something in your childhood that shows up as an adult? Right. And this actually shows up a lot. It's like, where did it come from? And sometimes perfectionism though is like you want to be perceived in a certain way. And so you can control that narrative. If you can keep things just so, you can control that. So again, on the hustle side, same here is sometimes there's a motive element that we may or may not know about. It's not always the case, but it can often be the case and something for us to kind of like hold up a mirror and go like, well, what is it for me? Shannon Scott (18:28.428) Yeah, yeah, to be perceived as good. Yeah, totally. I want to ask you about the concept of work-life balance, because I've been in places that say we want you to have that, but they don't do anything to help you have it. I've also been in places who have flat out said we don't believe in that, so that is not what we're going for here. Jason Young (18:31.618) Yeah! Jason Young (18:39.032) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (18:45.965) Yeah. Shannon Scott (18:55.448) I worked somewhere where they said, we don't use the word balance because we don't think that's real. So I would just love, and probably everybody listening is on some line of that spectrum, but what do you think about the concept of work-life balance? Is that a thing or is that just theater that we're all doing trying to hit something that doesn't exist? Jason Young (19:20.078) Well, obviously I'm just another opinion in the crowd. There are people who study this far more. I think I'd go back years ago to a conversation I had with a sociologist. He was a speaker at a conference. I was responsible for hosting him. I was driving him back to the airport, Atlanta airport one day, and we actually got in this conversation about work-life balance. And it's funny, we use these buzzwords, but sometimes It's like he asked me, he goes, what is that? Jason Young (19:55.47) I'm hey, I'm asking you the questions. He was like, no, what is that? Like, what is work-life balance? I'm like, were you balance work and life? goes, like, what is that? And it was interesting. He was even challenging because he was challenging what I was asking by the words I chose because language tells us how to behave, right? So if work-life balance is the language you use, you're going to behave. And it was a great challenge because he said this. He said, how do you know when you get to a work life balance and then how do you keep it? Assuming things don't stay the same. How do you know? I had no answer for this guy. So I said, I'm assuming you have another option. He goes, I do. He goes, I don't know. I don't know. His name is Dr. Leonard Sweet. He goes, I don't know how to do the work life balance. Shannon Scott (20:35.704) Mm. Jason Young (20:54.016) He goes, maybe other people have figured out. goes, but what I have figured out is rhythms in life that I can actually get my arms around that I can be intentional about and respond to. He goes, now that I can explain more. So I know the rhythm of, let's say I'm going be working on a particular project. It's going to demand more time, more people. Like I could talk about it more in a more tangible way. You know, so it was an interesting idea. It might be something I will tell you this Shannon. I have never in my life. I could not give you an example. If you were to say, Jason, give me a time when you thought you had a good work life balance. I don't even know what it means because it feels it's another thing that's abstract. So for me, I think I've fallen more into the category of what are the rhythms of my life look like? Could be work, could be spiritual matters, could be, you know, projects, right? Like it could be different things. That I could define more and that I can control more and that I can feel I realize, you know what, I need to slow this one down, this rhythm or hey, heads up, rhythms is going to pick up. It's a season. So it feels like it's a little bit more of a powerful thing than an abstract thing that work-life balance is to me. But I'm just another opinion. Shannon Scott (22:16.212) No, that, I mean, that resonates with me. I mean, this is called the Everything Made Beautiful podcast because we are committed to the idea that there is a season for everything. And so if there is a season for everything, then everything is not the same all the time. And so it's really profound to think about. There's not a balance you're always going to have, but you are going to have the appropriate Jason Young (22:27.726) Mm-hmm. Shannon Scott (22:42.988) time for the season. And there are seasons for hard work, but the sprint, not a marathon is both freeing, but it's also empowering because it's like, yeah, I need to work hard for this season and then it will be over. And there's a time for that ebb and flow to happen, which brings up the conversation about boundaries and This sentence, you actually said this when you were doing leadership development with us and I'm glad it's in this book. A boundary should be a gate and not a wall. So talk a little bit about that. As we think about, okay, I'm not gonna burn out. I've gotta make sure I'm managing stress and exhaustion before I have to figure out how to solve burnout. What does the role of boundaries play in that and them being gates and not walls? Jason Young (23:17.869) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (23:34.772) Yeah, so the imagery here is whenever I've heard of a boundary, I've always heard of it in like concrete terminology or imagery that it's a wall that stays out, just stays in, done deal. And maybe, but maybe there's like another way. the gate idea is what if, what if for this season, or this rhythm, that thing is not to be part of this. And so as a gate, it allows movement in and out for me to decide about that particular thing. when I think of like how I've been taught boundary, this huge wall, as tall as you can build it, stay out, you know? And there are some things, I mean, I think about some of you listening, have members and you've had to establish a really, really hard boundary or maybe something at work or maybe places you go or don't go, right? So there's these, that's why I say like, I'm not saying it's not a thing, but the gate idea is what if everything's not meant to be on the outside or the inside permanently, you know? And so the gate allows maybe some movement and not finality. Some things might need to be. And that's fine. But not everything needs to be. And so the gate idea allows maybe the movement to happen in and out, again, based on how I'm seeing and needing things, that allows me more flexibility versus the permanency idea of, stay there, I stay here, period, kind of like a cutoff. So it's just a little bit different of imagery. Boundary specifically, we could talk about this all day. You know, Henry Cloud wrote a remarkable book. I mean, he adds way more to the conversation. I think for this particular book, one of the things that we have seen a lot with leaders is how do you establish healthy relational boundaries? So, you know, this could show up. mean, let's make this super practical. This could show up with how many yeses and nos you distribute. This could show up in meeting time. This could show up in Shannon Scott (25:45.272) Mm. Jason Young (25:59.214) when you email or don't email your team members. This could be when you text or call or don't your team members. So it could be very, very practical like that. When you think about relational boundaries, there's an element of isolating that that's not necessarily the goal. There's an element more of protecting what is good. And the good may be, I need to kind of protect this around me. I will say this, and I've noticed this the last few years. I'm not sure why, but I have noticed that people are weaponizing boundaries in order to isolate people that they might need in their life that are actually healthy, but they are isolating them. So they're weaponizing using, well, I'm creating a boundary. And so it's keeping the good out in order so I can kind of protect Shannon Scott (26:46.904) Mm. Jason Young (26:57.772) what I want to do when I want to do it. And so I think that we have to be careful. Like, how are we using this? And is it actually for a healthier version of myself or ourselves as a team? Does that make any sense? Shannon Scott (27:13.012) It does. And isn't it amazing how we will weaponize anything? Like I think we have a tendency as humanity to, I mean, isn't that the whole story of the fall? It's like, we will take anything good and pervert it. And I don't just mean that sexually, pervert it the intended. Jason Young (27:18.146) Yeah. Shannon Scott (27:39.428) use or application into something that is outside that. think of, you know, personality tests and Enneagram and all those things like the more, you know, knowledge we get, the more we are tempted to weaponize it and use it in a way it wasn't intended. And I think boundaries, because when somebody says I'm establishing a boundary, we immediately go. gosh, they're doing something healthy. So I definitely should not ask any more questions. And that may not necessarily be the case. So that's a good warning to ensure we're not weaponizing it. Jason Young (28:09.55) Yeah. Yeah. yeah, and sometimes it's all in how we respond. think sometimes people, we don't do a boundary because we don't want to let people down or we don't want to hurt people or, and it's not like you have to be rude, like, no, absolutely not. This is my bounder. Like I'm not even advocating for language or approaches like that. But you know, if somebody asks you something, I appreciate the fact that you asked me, I'm unable to do it, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and the invitation, you know, because whatever you can say, because of scheduling, whatever, you know, so it's not like I have to be hard about it. And I think sometimes it gets a bad rap that in order to establish a boundary, it's like, it's a hardcore thing. So, you know, it's something to explore because I do see, especially with leaders, There's this idea that's very real of emotional labor that you're so used to listening to the emotions of other people that it becomes an element that becomes laborious. It's labor. It's work for you. It's heavy. Who does that for you? And so maybe a boundary for you could look like, not that you say no to them, but maybe you don't take on as much of that, let's say, Shannon Scott (29:16.268) Yeah, yes, it's heavy. Jason Young (29:30.978) five times a day, you listen to three people a day, but you also set up a boundary for yourself that I'm also going to have so-and-so to help me. That would be an example of a boundary. So again, it gets a bad rap that it's like this hard mean thing, but it could look a lot of different ways and it could still be soft and caring. Shannon Scott (29:53.11) Yeah. Before we move away from this, I do just want to say to people listening or watching, know, anytime we talk about communication inside an organization or otherwise, any communication, it's always a good rule of thumb to ask yourself a few questions before communicating, like who needs to hear this? How do they need to hear it? And when do they need to hear it? And possibly who do they need to hear it from? And those are just ways to avoid accidental injury in the way that we communicate by doing it in the wrong way at the wrong time through the wrong medium or with the wrong person. In considering boundaries, it might be good if you're feeling an unrest to consider, do I need to set a boundary? And if so, does it need to be a wall or a gate? Does it need to be permanent or flexible? Is this for a season? Just those sorts of Jason Young (30:42.574) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Shannon Scott (30:49.112) questions. Because again, it's similar to perfectionism and something we'll never attain. Boundaries do not have to be a wall, an impenetrable wall for all of time in many cases. And so hopefully there's some freedom there for those of you who feel the need to set a boundary but didn't realize it didn't have to be permanent. So another thing I wrote down, this is a little bit of a left turn, but Jason Young (30:50.232) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (31:03.65) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (31:12.108) Yeah, yeah, that's true. Jason Young (31:18.467) Mm-hmm. Shannon Scott (31:19.529) You talk about comparison and say comparison is the death of true self-contentment. So comparison is the death of true self-contentment. Leaders often struggle with comparing themselves to others, especially with the rise of social media, but focusing on one's own journey is key to avoiding burnout. I thought the comparison idea was interesting in a book on burnout. And then I was like, Jason Young (31:21.678) Mm. Jason Young (31:27.394) Mm-hmm. Shannon Scott (31:46.646) well, of course. I mean, why wouldn't that be part of it? So just talk a little bit about comparison is the death of true self-contemptment. Jason Young (31:54.958) Yeah, I mean, again, it's not revolutionary in the sense of like, wow, this is the first time I've ever heard this. I mean, we've heard about comparison and, you know, we've there's been some remarkable pastors and writers that have talked about, you know, how it how it's a trap, how it's a thief, right, steals joy. Like all of that has come before us. And I think this is actually a real challenge for leaders is that we fall in love with knowledge and all the way back to Adam and Eve that they actually prioritize knowledge over God. So from the very beginning humanity has just been in love with the idea of knowledge and I think sometimes what happens is social media, emails, reading, like in fact in this book We talk about, even in a book, like, maybe you need to stop reading. Maybe you need to stop social media. Maybe you need to stop now. Listen to only this podcast. But maybe you need to abandon podcasts for a season. The whole purpose is we're saturated with knowledge. But I don't know how driven we are with intentional action. Or one book I read talked about deliberate practice. Shannon Scott (33:06.946) Yeah Shannon Scott (33:13.302) Yeah, so good. Jason Young (33:22.924) And so we scroll and we scroll and we scroll and we read and we read and we read and we hear and we hear and we hear. And for what? So sometimes if we're not careful in all of that, we begin to think of thoughts like this. I'm not further along than I should be or like they are, or I should have done this already, or I don't have that, or my church isn't as big as theirs or as many campuses or as many staff, or I'm not speaking at all those conferences like I thought I would, or I'm not making as much money, or I don't have the family elements I thought that I would have by now or you you start comparing I don't write like so and so or I'm not look at the vacation you know I mean comparison can have 50,000 different tentacles to it but at the at the core of it and this is so hard I read a book written by Puritans and it talked about contentment and Shannon Scott (34:16.194) Yeah. Jason Young (34:30.042) I'm not saying Jason lives a content life. I think maybe this is in the book because this is a struggle for me. That I have to be very careful of, know, when I'm feeling some sort of way, am I feeling some sort of way because I'm comparing myself or I'm feeling some sort of way because I'm leaning in a content manner? Well, I don't even have to ask myself the question. I know the answer. It's like usually the first way. Shannon Scott (34:39.0) Mm. Jason Young (34:59.884) You know, one, it's realizing that it is a reality and two, it's what do I need or how might I not battle comparison so much and find myself more times being content. Again, are you going to perfect this? Not happening. But is there way that I could be more content more often with what I do have and who I do have than I find myself comparing Shannon Scott (35:15.896) Mm. Jason Young (35:29.324) which typically lets me go down a vortex of what I don't have another idea. Jason Young (35:38.05) We often say this, well, I love to celebrate other people. When I see their stuff, new campus, more staff, conference, they got this gig. And sometimes I want to say to people when I hear them say that, even myself, are you really happy for them? If nobody else was around, are you deeply content with where you are? And when you saw that, you didn't compare yourself thinking, that should be me. And so on the front, your front face, your posture is, yeah, Shannon, good job, celebrating you. But deep down inside, there's this discontent that, why don't I get that? So if that's you, it's a real battle. And if you do battle it, you're welcome to humanity. But we don't have to stay there. So it's not something we have to accept. Shannon Scott (36:30.711) Yeah. Jason Young (36:33.602) I think we have to do the deliberate practice of thinking of boundaries. Are there things I need to put in my life that don't put me exposed to comparison as much as I am now? And I could begin to think, am I content with and with whom? And maybe begin to talk about those things and write those things and share those things so I can have that more on my radar than only comparison. Shannon Scott (37:00.152) Yeah, so good. Well, the last quote I wrote is probably gonna be helpful for so many because we've talked about things like hustle and perfectionism and comparison and boundaries. And so for a certain personality type, now we're going, okay, well, I know everything that's wrong with it, but I'm not sure what happens now. And you write extensively on rest. And so that's how I want us to wrap up. Jason Young (37:21.41) Yeah. Shannon Scott (37:28.273) and you said the way you recharge your emotional energy is through rest. Rest limits the time we have to work on something so it helps us focus on the things that matter most. So for people who are recognizing, okay, I do have a lot of stress because that is just the human experience. I even maybe am exhausted or Jason Young (37:40.652) Yeah. Shannon Scott (37:53.96) I'm so exhausted that when he talked about burnout, that's actually what resonated more with me was the, just don't care, frankly, I'd have nothing left. Is rest the antidote to all of those things? And what does it look like in the culture we all live in that does not prioritize rest, though we may have a lot of good books and blogs and podcasts about it. Jason Young (38:01.272) Yeah. Shannon Scott (38:18.733) how do we achieve true rest and start to push back some of this burnout or the previous exhaustion and stress? Jason Young (38:28.738) Yeah. When you think about how each of us, how it was designed to be, it was this, really this element of shalom and this wholeness, right? And part of that. Shannon Scott (38:40.492) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (38:43.814) is rest. To behold, the challenge is society, culture, books, if you work on a church staff, it rarely is the thing that gets celebrated or promoted or encouraged. In fact, I've worked at places where it was discouraged in the name of doing godly work. Shannon Scott (39:08.566) Mm-hmm. Jason Young (39:12.846) things and it's like a minute so when we think about Shannon Scott (39:15.628) And I will also say I've been at places where it was celebrated and encouraged from the platform, but then you have the staff or the volunteers sitting there going, wait, what? So I think it's, which I don't think was manipulative in any way. I think it is a misunderstanding that this is not predominantly the human experience. Jason Young (39:23.15) Hmm. Jason Young (39:28.707) Yeah. Jason Young (39:32.504) Yeah. Jason Young (39:38.71) Yeah, and look, on the front end, some of this is self-inflicted. Like, we could do this to ourselves if we're not careful, and we usually don't do it overnight. It's like at 2 a.m., it shows up, knock on the door and say, didn't see it coming. We don't see it coming, but it's the small incremental decisions we make that can often contribute to, you know, accelerating the acceleration to get to this point. So there's kind of an organizational and an individual thing. On the individual side, it is taking a little bit of an inventory if you're exhausted or if you're burned out. Maybe you're just experiencing some stress or some of these warning signs we've talked about. And maybe it's talking with someone in a trusted way. Look, you as a leader, you're going to have a voice that's going to tell yourself, I need to put on the front that I've got it all together and I'm OK. And you know if you're not. And so having a conversation with somebody that's trusted and you begin to navigate some of these things. One of the things almost always rest is not happening. But what's sad that I often hear from leaders in church and outside of church is they don't say it like this, but this is where we end up. Rest is like a sin. I don't deserve to rest. There's work to do. He needs me. God needs me. Shannon Scott (40:56.6) Mm. Jason Young (41:01.74) Like, and you know, and it's like, who said that? You know, for me, it was people in my undergrad and grad program that they probably meant well, but it was it presented well, or it's like, don't know if that's true. So when you think about rest, it could look like a calendar shift, or it could look like you doing things that bring you satisfaction. It could look like, here's a sign. This is a little humorous. Have you ever had a meeting scheduled and you receive a notification or a text message that that meeting gets canceled and you just got 30 minutes back in your day and you're like, it's almost like a visceral response and you get this feeling in your body. Okay, that's a problem because we're so stacked with stuff that the only way to... Shannon Scott (41:44.138) Ugh. Shannon Scott (41:57.568) Yeah, feels like winning the lottery if it gets canceled. Jason Young (42:00.95) Yeah, it's like you're so stacked that the only way to get a break is if someone else cancels something on your calendar and you're like, this is so good. I got a break. Like, but a lot of us are there. So we are tired and we do need to rest. So sometimes that is, you for me, I change my sleep schedule after seven, 10 years of 12, 12, 30 at night, going to bed, getting up at 4 a.m. I know that's not good. So I changed that. one thing for me and the whole learning process and maturing process as a leader and as a spouse and a father and as a friend. Okay, I'm not the best version of me staying like this, right? What started out in the season went to a lifestyle. And so it could be getting more sleep. Shannon Scott (42:46.39) Hmm. And now people are gonna ask what's what are the hours? What are the good hours? Jason Young (42:52.206) Yeah, so I may still do like 11, 30 or 12, but it might be like, you know, 530, could be 630, you know, there's a little bit more, there's longer hours there for me. And so it's better. It could be taking a nap. It could be rest, could be not stacking your schedule. It could be doing things that satisfy. There's different ways, rest is not always about well if I could just get rid of meetings. Well, you know what? If I'm a betting guy, I bet if we cleared up some meetings, it would find more stuff to do on that calendar. It would be a bet. So it's practicing the things and you know what? There's probably in the beginning you're going to feel guilty about it, especially if you've trained yourself to not do it because you didn't feel like, I don't deserve it or it's a sin. You say, that sounds dramatic. Shannon Scott (43:31.19) Yeah, that's good. Jason Young (43:47.502) I've heard people like, I got a lot to do as if the world depends on you. If Jesus demonstrated that for us, which He did, and we even see that in creation, there has to be something there because it must be like we need it. And I'm not that good to not need Shannon Scott (44:11.596) Yeah. Jason Young (44:17.144) something that Jesus himself needed. And as soon as I begin to think I don't, there is an element that I elevate myself above someone and something that I have no business doing. And I need to humble myself and realize I need to rest. It shows up different ways, but we all need it. And it can be a massive antidote to burnout and keeping your joy. Shannon Scott (44:46.532) There's something really arrogant about my belief that I can't rest or things will fall apart. I mean, frankly, you know, the earth is not held by me. The concerns of life are not held by me. They're held by someone much more resource to hold them because he made them. And I have Jason Young (44:56.866) Yeah. Yeah. Jason Young (45:03.64) Yeah. Shannon Scott (45:14.668) You know, I take that Psalm 23 passage of he makes me lie down in green pasture sometimes, sometimes a little aggressively, like if I get sick or if I get to where I can't do anything but lie down and he made me lie down. It's amazing how many things keep going. But I do feel like some of us have to be sick before we stop. And I have to get to the bottom of that for myself regularly. Jason Young (45:28.664) Yeah. Shannon Scott (45:45.102) Because sometimes we need to stop just because we need to stop and be reminded that it doesn't all depend on us actually. But there's a guilt with it and it's true, there is guilt and it'll be fine. Jason Young (45:52.482) Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. I'll tell you a brief story and maybe if you're listening, you can identify with this or you may just say, Jason, bro, you got problems, which that is true as well. Talking about being sick, this was a sick move. I was working on a church staff. It was Easter, right? It's the Super Bowl, it's crazy, right? Shannon Scott (46:18.092) Super Bowl, yeah. Jason Young (46:19.628) Yeah, you're adding like 400,000 more services. You're getting ready, right? So like I'm feeling good about it. We got the plan. And I get sick. And when I say get sick, I get pneumonia, bronchitis and strep the week of Easter. Not good when you work on a church staff. So I did the most noble thing imaginable. I showed up to work. And with the temperature. So I had all that happening. Shannon Scott (46:48.28) Mm. Jason Young (46:51.34) For what? Like, what story did I tell myself that it hinged on whether I was there or not? And even when I was sick with all that junk, I still wasn't willing to rest. Now, I love the work that I do, but I don't know that it was all about love in that season. I think it was like I elevated myself too highly and like, my golly, I'm gonna, you know. So that's a problem. Shannon Scott (47:11.958) Yeah. Jason Young (47:21.022) and hopefully have matured since then, my wife's like, what is wrong with you? I'm like, well, you got all day, because I got a lot of stuff to tell you. But I realized, yeah, that is a problem. And we shouldn't have to be sick to force us to rest. But if we choose to rest, then maybe we actually become more of who he designed us to be because he designed rest. Shannon Scott (47:21.229) Yeah. Shannon Scott (47:29.163) You Shannon Scott (47:46.326) Yeah, that's so good. I find that predominantly things that I fear will happen if I take a break never actually do, like the worst case scenario never actually comes true. But in the handful of times where I've needed to take a break, I've taken it and it wasn't received well by someone on the other side. It wasn't long before God was showing me that that wasn't a relationship that needed cultivating over the long term anyway. The majority of people understand and will be supportive of rest and margin in the calendar. This is so good. So I have one question for you before we go. But before that, what I just think about the people who are already in burnout, who are listening going, this would have been great to hear six months ago, perhaps. Jason Young (48:26.648) Yeah. Jason Young (48:31.778) Yep. Yep. Shannon Scott (48:43.544) What are the first steps that someone who is in burnout currently could take to begin this process of just rebuilding their emotional and relational strength? Jason Young (48:57.186) Yeah, let me see if I can briefly mention a couple of things. One, there's an assessment, don't burn out, burn bright. There's actually an assessment there. And when you take the assessment, it gives you one result. And that one result, again, hopefully it's accurate. The one result is where the thing that could be leading you into burnout or is keeping you in burnout. And then it corresponds to a chapter in the book. So I don't even care if you read the whole book. But maybe you read that one chapter because it's the thing that maybe have you most entangled case. That's idea number one. Idea number two. Idea number two, and this is even a bigger picture. If you're in burnout and you're listening to this. Shannon Scott (49:32.118) I'll put all that in the show notes. Jason Young (49:43.178) You don't, you struggle with, don't even, I mean, I know, okay, I know I want to, but I don't even have any energy to like take the first step. And that's okay, because here's a different way to look at that. Burnout is really related, it's really a traumatic experience. And by that, when you think about trauma, and if you were to study trauma, what's interesting about trauma, a common denominator about those that have experienced trauma, is it became a trauma because you felt like you were alone in it. So when you think back, if you've experienced a trauma, if you were to think back and we were to do some digging, this isn't therapy, but if you were to do some digging, there is a... A part of it where you felt all alone. find this in leaders that they're in burnout because they felt all alone in the journey. They didn't talk to anybody. Everything was okay until they realized it's not okay. What's the thing is you got there alone because you felt alone. But when you're in burnout, the opposite is true. If you study trauma and you study healing, you never recover from trauma alone. You can get there alone, but you don't get out alone. So you need somebody to Shannon Scott (50:54.946) Hmm. Jason Young (50:55.896) to do it with, right? So life. So I would encourage you this, don't add something else to your to-do list. you know, we could give you a litany of things. The first step is this, find somebody who's for you, who you trust, and allow them, they may not be the person that goes the whole journey, but they can help you get started. And let them, you know, there's this idea in neuroscience, but let somebody with a bigger brain that can think bigger and broadly for you, because you can. You've got nothing left in the tank to help make some decisions and connections for you that can get you moving in the right direction. Look, you didn't get there overnight. You're not going to get out of it overnight. It's a process, but you absolutely cannot get out or heal on your own. take the assessment, see what it shows you, find somebody you can trust that can at least help you take that first step. of what should you do or who should you talk to. That might be it, not even doing, it's just talking to somebody. And then just let the steps begin to happen on their own or under the care of someone that can give you some more wisdom. that's where I would say it. The final thing is this. If you feel burned out, like you don't have to stay burned out. If you feel alone, you don't have to stay alone. If you feel sad and discouraged, you don't have to stay there. It's hard and it's hard to heal, but you don't have to stay there. And so the decisions that you took that got you there, hey, we're past that. Now you can make other decisions that can get you out of there. You just kind of make a decision at a time, okay? And you don't have to do this by yourself. Shannon Scott (52:47.672) so good. Well, before we close, I'm going to ask you the question I ask all my podcast guests, okay? So this will hopefully be a little bit of a lift if this has felt heavy. This is obviously called the Everything Made Beautiful podcast. We believe that God is making everything beautiful presently and in the life to come. And so in that vein, if you could design your perfect beautiful day what would it look like from start to finish and the caveat I give people is there's no limitations so if you have allergies or you have gluten intolerance or anything like that you don't have to have that in your perfect beautiful day so what would yours be? Jason Young (53:32.664) Yeah, probably throwing on my Speedo and just enjoying the day at the beach. I'm just kidding. You might want to edit that part out. That's just a joke. Just I don't wear those. I don't wear those. If you do, no judgment. You do you. You know what? This is going to sound maybe too simple. Removing the pressure that I owe something to someone. Shannon Scott (53:43.028) Nope, that stays in, that stays in. Shannon Scott (53:48.728) You Shannon Scott (54:03.256) Mm. Jason Young (54:04.278) Nobody's waiting on me for a meeting. Nobody's waiting on me to show up. Nobody's waiting on me to build something, design, speak it. You say, well, isn't that the work that you do? So you're like, that all wears you out. That's not what I'm saying at all. But I think if I had a day where the demand and the pressure was removed and I had the freedom to wake up and go eat a great breakfast, go for a walk, watch a movie. eat gummy bears, which I love. know, like for me doing that type of thing all day hanging out with my wife, Stacey, like we like to watch movies at house, like we could watch one then you want to on a walk? Yeah, let's go on a walk. You want to drive up to so and so? Let's drive up to so and so. So I think the freedom to do all that and not feel the burden of responsibility that I often feel, I don't mean that negatively, but the burden of responsibility. Shannon Scott (55:02.648) Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, I like that. I always want to enter into every perfect, beautiful day that every guest describes. And that one hits home for me. Like, what would it be like for no one to be wanting anything from me? That's, that feels like euphoria when I imagine it. So, whoo. Yes, exactly. One can dream. Well, Jason, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on this show. I, I have a Jason Young (55:02.68) that that gets lifted for a day. Jason Young (55:17.752) Yeah. Hahaha, yeah. One can dream. Shannon Scott (55:31.224) page full of notes and I know that this has been a word in season for some people in some really specific things that they're walking through. And I've already been praying that the people that need to listen and watch this will listen and watch it. So if you are listening and watching, I prayed for you that you would have something that you could take away and walk away with that might give you hope in what can often be hard or exhausting seasons. So Jason, thank you and thank you to Jonathan. If you will pass on. our gratitude. Thank you for this book. I will put all the information in the show notes, but I'm so grateful that you joined us today. Jason Young (56:08.398) Thank you, Shannon. Shannon Scott (56:10.112) All right guys, that does it for this episode of Everything Made Beautiful. And as always, I encourage you to be looking around for the ways that God is making everything beautiful, including you. We'll see you next time.