Welcome to Everyday Intimacy, where we delve into the realms of body, soul, and connection, guiding you through the landscape of self-discovery and interpersonal relationships. I'm your host, Angela Rivero. a somatic practitioner and certified somatic sex intimacy and relationship guide. Here we explore topics ranging from sexuality and somatic healing to understanding trauma embodiment and intimacy.
My mission is to empower you in your personal evolution and foster deeper connections with others. Thank you for joining me on this journey of exploration and transformation. Let's dive deep into the essence of true intimacy, one conversation at a time. Hey there, just a quick interlude to tell you about the pleasure deck. These 48 gorgeous cards are your new toolkit designed to expand your concept of pleasure and empower you to fully embrace your feminine.
genius. With a wide range of exercises and embodiment practices, the pleasure deck invites you to explore various dimensions of pleasure, intimacy, and self-discovery. From nurturing self-love and self-trust to cultivating sisterhood bonds, each card offers a unique opportunity to tap into your body's wisdom and unlock new levels of fulfillment.
Pull one card every morning to ignite your inner light and juice you up. Each practice takes only two to 15 minutes because sister, we know life is busy. The pleasure deck is available now at amazon.com. Welcome back to Everyday Intimacy. Today I'm thrilled to have with me Zoe Blassos. She's a dear friend of mine I've known for about six years. And Zoe is a somatic and nature-based therapist.
who specializes in eating disorder recovery, trauma healing, and coming home to the wild essence within ourselves. In addition to providing psychotherapy to adults and adolescents, Zoe facilitates retreats, groups, and backpacking adventures through her business, Solvita Psychotherapy. Zoe is a forever lover of learning mountains chocolate.
being in awe of the human spirit. As you'll hear in this episode, Zoe is a wonderful human being, beautiful soul, and we'll talk about eating disorders and coming back to our essence of who we are and also how nature can really support. our healing journey. Thank you for being here.
Hi, Zoe. Thank you for coming on Everyday Intimacy. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. Me and Zoe met, I don't know, in 2019. So it's been quite a few years that we've known each other. And so it's wonderful to connect this way. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you. Will you tell the listeners where you are in the world? And is that where you grew up? Yeah, I'm located in Boulder, Colorado, right in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains.
And it's not where I grew up. I grew up moving around a lot as a kid, but mostly grew up outside of St. Louis on a farm in Southern Illinois. Amazing. Yeah. So tell us about your childhood. What was it like for you? My childhood was really beautiful for the most part. Living on a farm was amazing. We had lots of animals. Our property backed up to a nature preserve. So we got to spend a lot of time.
A lot of time in nature, just exploring the woods. And I was homeschooled. So I had a lot of freedom to pursue my passions, spend time with my siblings. I played the piano. So I spent a lot of time doing that, a lot of time reading. Felt like it was a very spacious childhood. Like I had space to explore and follow my intuition.
I love that. And Zoe plays the piano beautifully. I've heard her play for me and it's like stunning. So I love that you can do that. And I can imagine living on a farm and being close to nature that I'm sure has influenced your path and love for nature. Yeah, it has. I feel really grateful because I feel most at home in nature, like most at home with myself. And I feel really comfortable, you know, for some people.
Being outdoors or being in the wilderness can feel scary or disorienting, which is really valid. And I really appreciate that because I grew up with so much space in nature that... It feels really safe to me. Like that's where my nervous system feels safest and calmest and most connected. Beautiful. I love that you share the distinction that, you know, people have different experiences.
I think that's important for people to hear that some people love nature and some people haven't had the experiences just yet to maybe feel okay being in nature and the magic of nature. And that I would say that's, of course, something that could be possible if you're in the right setting with maybe the right guide.
uh to explore and maybe some people will never love it you never know exactly yeah we're all different we all get to have different relationships with it yeah and i know you and your husband are quite adventurous in nature even now you guys do a lot of skiing and whitewater rafting and
all these amazing adventures and so that i'm always like wow i wish i could do some of those things but and i do but not like to the extent that you do them yeah yeah i feel really lucky to live out here now in the mountains where there's access to Just the majesty of nature. Mountains have always called to me because I get to feel so connected to everything, to the oneness of the world when I'm up in the mountains. But I also feel so small.
It's like this weird feeling of being just one little piece of the universe and at the same time connected to the whole universe. That's why I love the mountains, regardless of where they are in the world. I love that. I tend to love the forest. I grew up walking in the forest in Sweden when I was a kid. And so whenever I get a chance to go to the forest, I also feel very connected.
something inside of me is always sparked and I don't know there's something there for me for sure and I mean California is beautiful has the ocean and mountains but it's not always easy to access like really green forest because everything is already and I mean northern California for sure but not where I live and so I do
miss that kind of forest very much and i went to sweden this last summer and i got to be back in that nature and that forest and they had wild blueberries everywhere and just really feel a spot in my soul that it's been missing for a long time and Wow, how beautiful. I can almost feel it as you're talking about it.
And I got to bring my boys, too, and they got to experience that. And so it was kind of wild to see them kind of close to that age when I left Sweden to experience that kind of nature and eat wild blueberries along the path. So it was really cool. How beautiful. Yeah, thank you.
Yeah. So I don't know if you'd be willing to talk to us a little bit more about your childhood as far as maybe even your teen years. What was one of the most difficult experiences you had growing up and how did it shape you or the shape of the work that you're doing now? Oh, let's see.
most challenging yeah i think being a teenager can be challenging for so many of us you know 14 15 was so awkward for me socially just like figuring out how to be in my body I think, you know, even though my family was really, really connected and we all like love each other so deeply, we also were really chaotic. I'm one of four siblings and I'm the oldest. My dad worked a ton. So I think just some of the challenges in our family system led to me developing an eating disorder.
And that was one of the most challenging things I experienced, I think in my later teen years. I think it was my way of coping with the chaos of childhood and growing up on a farm, which is beautiful, but also... I saw a lot of death at a really young age, like really intimately knew the life death life cycle of just watching animals die and be born.
I didn't quite know how to cope with that pain as well as some of the like traumas in my family. So the eating disorder was the way that I coped with it. And I didn't know that I was struggling for a long time. used denial really strongly which was a tool a survival tool sure but once I figured it out I feel really grateful that I immediately wanted recovery
and jumped right into it. I think that's really informed who I am now and the work that I do in the world. I work a lot with eating disorder recovery and I think it's a... My recovery is something I'm really proud of and also proud of the fact that it's not the only part of who I am. I'm so much more than that at this point in my life.
Yeah, thank you for sharing your vulnerable story. And I know that a lot of the listeners have had similar experiences. And so I think it's going to really help them to know that, you know, other people are going through it and there is a way to recover.
Yeah, so I guess that kind of leads me into my next question. I want to dive more into some eating disorder stuff, but just kind of how did your journey start? Because I think you've really shared about some of these elements that brought you to where you are now.
where do you decide maybe was there a moment where you're like i'm going to also do this for a career and start helping people with nature and therapy and healing was there like a pivotal pivotal moment that led you to where your path is now Yeah, I feel like there's so many pivotal moments along the road. I think of them as like these little glowing moments where the trail split. Like I took the one trail and not the other.
One was definitely in college. I was planning to go into medicine. And so I was already planning to study for the MCAT and take all the biology classes. And because I was going through my own recovery. This whole world of mental health and psychology was opened up to me. And I started studying neuroscience and psychology and fell in love with it. And then I was also just noticing.
how powerful having my own therapist was and also some of my classmates who were struggling with mental health. And I realized I really wanted to be able to give people tools that could support their life long term. rather than going into medicine where I thought I would be a surgeon and, you know, like fix a broken bone. And then that was it. I really wanted to be able to, I always think about that story of, you know, like if you teach a man to fish.
you feed him for a lifetime rather than if you give him a fish you feed him for a day and so i want it to be that where i could like guide people and teach them tools so that they could have the life they really wanted for the rest of their life not just fix a bone for a day. Although I suppose that is a long-term support as well. So that was a big moment. I shifted from studying medicine to studying psychology and neuroscience.
yeah, I never looked back. Like I've always wanted to be a therapist since then. Love that. And I love how you've been able to bring your personal journey in, but also the things with nature and all the things that you grew up with. make it a really beautiful collaboration of tools and understanding to really help people connect with their own bodies through your different modalities. It's like your special magic and your uniqueness.
And I love that. It's always been an inspiration. And how did you first come to understand this connection between the body? um and nature or something like that right because you know psychology can be a lot in the mind right but then you've also incorporated a lot with the body and nature so what you want to talk a little bit about that journey yeah
Yeah, I think it was after college, I started working in wilderness therapy. So I was a wilderness therapy guide for almost two years. And that's where I saw the power of nature supporting.
healing not just for myself but for other people right like I had always felt it there in my own journey of like being pulled into nature and that's where I felt safe and at home and connected to the deeper parts of myself not just the disordered parts But then getting to witness other people being supported by nature in such a powerful way and getting to be a part of that, that's what really inspired me to continue to weave that through the work that I do.
moving forward because then i went on to go to grad school and you know post-grad school to start to figure out how to bring wilderness into everyday therapy sessions love it And so I don't know if in your experience as a therapist, do you feel like people are pretty disconnected from their bodies, especially after like maybe traumas or something like a disease?
eating disorder like what's your experience with that and um people don't always feel at home with in themselves right and so maybe you can talk a little bit about that right yeah it does seem very common I work with some people who have developed connection to their bodies in their own ways. A lot of people I work with are either disconnected to their bodies due to an eating disorder or a trauma or just...
by growing up in the culture that we're surrounded by that really does disconnect us from our emotions and therefore our bodies. I see our emotions as being energy in motion. this energy in our body that's trying to communicate to us about our experience of the world. And when we aren't willing to listen to what our body is telling us, to what those emotions are telling us, we have to disconnect. We have to live in our minds only.
or in our distractions, in our thoughts. And so at this point, it feels like almost part of the human experience. to you know have a bit of disconnection from our bodies i wish it wasn't that way because i don't think we're born that way and we're all born being really tuned in Like, oh, I feel anger. I want something. Oh, I'm sad. I didn't get that. Oh, I'm hungry. I need food. And then we're slowly trained out of it. Most of us.
So it's one of the things I'm most passionate about is coming back home to those natural instincts, natural messages that our bodies are holding for us. Yeah, beautiful. I mean, I see that. There's luckily a lot more momentum towards connection to the body and somatic work and connected to our emotions.
than there ever has been and it's going to probably take some time for it to become bigger than it is now but i can imagine how powerful it will be as it continues to expand for the next generations and just imagining how that would have been like for all of us if that was something we're taught in school and you know what i mean to transform our society so drastically and i mean we can go into so many different reasons why maybe
people don't want us to be fully connected to ourselves, but it could just be such a huge shift. And I do believe in a lot of hope within myself that it's heading that way and that it'll be better for the future for our children and our grandchildren and so on. Yeah. yeah i agree and i also think there is some brilliance in disconnecting from the body especially when we talk about trauma like oh it's such an adaptive thing to
disconnect from the body so that we don't have to be with that overwhelming pain. So I like to talk to my clients about that. We don't need to beat ourselves up or make ourselves wrong for creating that disconnection because it's what helps us survive. Like, thank goodness.
we can do that it's just that living long term in that way throughout the rest of our lives isn't going to be the most fulfilling and so how do we heal that connection how do we come back home to ourselves so that We don't have to be in survival mode forever.
I'm always in awe of how brilliant we are as humans. I mean, a lot of that brilliance can lead to like, you know, disconnection and pain, but it's because of survival and protection. And so we are really brilliant. And so when we start to really understand that, I think there's gonna be a lot of self-compassion.
and softness and kindness that we can start to kind of tap into knowing that it's not something that we've done wrong. It's actually a brilliant part of us to help us cope and survive things that felt like we couldn't otherwise. We're pretty brilliant. Our bodies are. We are. We're constantly in awe of the body and the human spirit to come up with these creative ways to keep us going. And then the natural capacity to heal.
I know. It's amazing. I'll have to talk more about that for sure. And so what does it mean for you to live in trust or live from love and trust? Maybe talk to us a little bit about that and how to cultivate from inside as opposed to external ways to have love and trust. Yeah. Yeah. Love and trust are two of my biggest values. It feels like what I come home to again and again. That's who I am at my core.
I think a lot about how to anchor into those feelings so that I can live from them from the inside out, like you just said. And I think about that from a neuroscience perspective. I have a teacher. Her name is Julie Colwell. And she talks about how ultimately the brain sort of has two settings, either reactive or creative. And when we're in reactive brain, that's, you know, the trauma response, stress response, where we sort of shut down.
go into fight flight or freeze right we're responding to some sort of threat we perceive in the world which in this day and age might not be the saber-toothed tiger chasing us it might just be the text message from our friend that we interpreted strangely. But we go into this tight, contracted, reactive place where our body and our nervous system isn't responding to the world from ease and flow. We're tight.
And when we can shift out of that, when we can breathe with it, when we can let ourselves feel the feelings, when we can remind ourselves that we're safe, there's so many strategies of how to shift. We shift from that reactive brain state to creativity. where everything's more expansive and there's more space to really be with what's happening in our lives, to connect to love, trust, acceptance. And so I think a lot about that, of like, how can I...
remind myself that that creative state of my brain is available. Even when I go into the reactivity, when something happens, what can I do to shift myself back into that place of expansiveness? literally help my nervous system and my brain be with trust and love. Because that's where I want to create from. If I'm creating from a reactive state, it's not going to be that helpful because I'm looking for threats.
but when i'm in a creative brain state then yeah love is everywhere it's like pouring out of me i don't have to do much i love that Yeah, I think that's the beauty, a part of like connecting to our desires and then being able to walk our way or come out of the survival energy and coming from a place of love and trust and like groundedness and earthiness. And I think we just.
have so much more accessibility to a life that we want when we can start to understand why the coping strategies are there and the survival states are there. And I find that it's sometimes really hard for people to connect with their desires and the creativity because they're in this loop of stress and survival for so long. And then they feel, and I think we saw this in mastery a lot, people feel like.
i have no idea what i want or what i desire and it feels very triggering to people to even be asked that and which makes sense if you really see you know what the reason is is why you're not connected to it and
Again, there's a message of hope that like you can connect to that aliveness within you that's already there. It's just, you know, masks with all these coping strategies. And so, yeah, it's pretty cool that there are ways that we can come out of those type of states that are kind of running the show. Totally. Yeah. I think too about how if we're really used to being in a reactive brain state and we've had to be there for survival, when we are able to pop out into a creative brain state.
it can actually feel uncomfortable. It's much more expansive and open. And if we're not used to that, it can actually feel very scary. Like, oh my gosh, there's so much. energy up here for creativity and desire and what do i really want it's like oh man i'm actually used to being really contracted and reactive and that actually in a way can feel more comfortable for people
And so I think a lot about like some of us really need time to like slowly go back and forth. Can I spend a little bit more time feeling good? Can I spend a little bit more time feeling connected to love? Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of the work that Peter Levine talks about. It's like the titration, the pendulation between the things that are hard and then kind of go back and dipping your toe into the things that feel more expansive and more flow.
And I think that's the key to a lot of the healing is like where we give ourselves space to have the contractions and come out of them as opposed to like, you should feel good now. Tell me your desires. And like, you better feel good.
Because our brains can tell us that story. It's like, well, I should feel good and I should have desires or I should do this. And it's like, no, but the more we can actually just let ourselves feel differently and do it in a very slow way. I feel like that's really where things start to unfold in a really beautiful way.
I always say that's like almost like slow as fast because we want things quickly. We want to feel like we're good, we're healed. But most people don't operate that way. We can just dive into it and be healed. Like that doesn't, that's not realistic, but we want that. But when we can continue slowly building our ability to feel discomfort or even feeling the good things, it opens that window up so that it becomes more of our natural state as opposed to being like, oh, shit.
Right. I think our productivity culture here in the U.S. or in the Western world really doesn't support the natural flow of healing, which takes time, which is slow, can be slow, can be fast. It's its own rhythm. We can't force it. Yeah, for sure. And so we've talked about nature-based therapy. How do you bring the natural into your practice then or this natural world? And how does it really help people reconnect with themselves? Like what's your experience? Yeah.
Yeah, right now the way I incorporate nature is to do some of my sessions outside. I'll either meet clients at a park where we can just sit under the trees, in the grass. or meet at a trailhead so that we can go for a walk and be with nature. There's one spot that I really like that's along a creek so we can be with water and have views of the mountains.
So that's really supportive just to be outside, to be able to pause and connect with nature, to ground in nature, but also sometimes to use elements of nature as part of the therapeutic interventions. And when I'm not outside, I still bring nature into my sessions. I think my offices have lots of plants in them, but also using nature as metaphor, I think can be really helpful.
Nature has so many lessons for us about how to let go, how to be in flow, how to survive. So I think it gets woven in all around and overall. just me being connected to nature feels like a way for me to bring nature into my sessions like my trust and love and that feeling of being held like that mother nature can hold all of us she can
hold all of our feelings, all of our rage and sorrow and joy, because she's so expansive. Like there's nothing she can't hold. And when I connect to that, then I feel so capable of holding as well. That makes me feel like emotional. You just saying that I just feel like it's such beauty to have that connection and that transmission because that's what people need. So just feel emotional hearing that. Yeah, it's really powerful.
I love that you brought that piece in because yes, nature in itself has that, but the fact that you are so deeply connected to it is such a resource for people. And I think that also reminds me then, like, if people do continue to go into nature, even if they're not in nature anymore, they can tap into that part of them that has experienced nature. That's what it feels like to me. It's like...
Even I'm not in the forest, I still can tap into those feelings that I have when I'm in the forest. So it's always with me. And if I don't get opportunities to go into the forest as much as I would like. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think it's all.
really deeply in us we evolved to be outside it's only in the past few generations that we spend more time indoors than outdoors and so i i think it's in our dna i think it's in our nervous system to tap into that yeah Something that's always helped me, and I feel like it helps clients too, is like orienting to the nature, you know, so using your five senses too.
yeah those things i feel like it brings us back in the present moment instead of being like maybe in the futurizing or you know the other experiences that we have and for me like and i know everybody's different but i feel like when i can look at the You know, the breeze and the trees, I feel like it helps me ground back into the moment instead of being like, oh, there's so many stories I have in my head about all the things, you know, and.
So for me, I think the orienting to our five senses is whether we're in nature, but I definitely feel like it's helpful when we're in nature as well to really connect back in. Yeah. Yeah. Connecting to the five senses is one of my favorite ways. to connect to nature but also to connect to the body i have people who say oh i don't know how to connect to my body like i'm then it makes me think about my body and i don't want to think about my body
For me, connecting to the senses is a way to be in that interface where our body is noticing what's happening in the environment. So it's not about like, oh, what does my stomach feel like today? It's like, oh. what can I hear? What can I feel with my toes? What can I smell? Like that's connecting to the body too. Yeah. And I think for the listeners, that's a brilliant tool that anybody can do on their own. Right. I mean, sometimes.
It takes practice to do it, but it's a simple tool in a lot of ways to have access to. Yeah. So I love that because people need simple practices and tools for their toolbox. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I love five senses. I do it all the time. And for some clients, to make it more simple, we do five, four, three, two, one, right? Like five things that you can see, four things you can hear.
Three things you can touch, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste. Because I know when I'm in a reactive state and I really need that calming of my nervous system or connection to my body, sometimes I forget. I'm like, okay, what am I supposed to do? Connect to my senses. And so just to have those numbers, I'm like, okay, five things. I can see what are five things. That's smart. That's cool.
Yeah, definitely hard to have the thinking brain online when we're in deeper stress moments. And so it's hard to remember our tools. And I think the more we practice them, especially being held in a container, the easier it is for us to. remember them later embody them as time goes on but it's definitely i think something people should know that like when we're in the stress states that we don't have that part of our brain that
it's so logical like i should just do this and that's why i think people as well have a hard time asking for what they need when they're dysregulated or really stressed out and they're like what can i do for you it's like that part of that brain can't be like well logically i need you to do that you know it doesn't really work
So it's tough sometimes to get to the tools, I guess, you know? Right. Yeah. When I'm deeply stressed or in a reactive place, the last thing I want to do is take a deep breath or connect to my senses, right? I'm very resistant to it. I find that the more I practice doing those things when I'm not stressed, then the easier it is to access them when I am because my body's already used to doing it.
Yeah, I think that's definitely one of the key elements is practicing when we're not in the States instead of waiting and being like, wait, what am I supposed to do? Right. Wait, what did my therapist say? Let me think through this. Yeah. What was I going to say? There was something that came to my mind a second ago. I don't remember what it was. But I guess it wasn't meant to be shared. Or we'll come back if it's meant to. Maybe we'll come back.
Well, I know that part of your work is also helping people recognize that, you know, the body's intuitive with them. And so how do you kind of start that journey with people as far as they've been?
probably overriding these things maybe their whole life and they mistrust their sensations and I feel like we've kind of dipped into that throughout our whole conversation but is there anything else that you'd like to share about how to start building your intuition and listening to what's true and what doesn't feel true and safe right oh it's such a good question and i feel like it's actually quite complex or can be like simple and complex at the same time because
When we are in a stress state, a reactive state, our bodies are sending us all those signals, right, to help us survive, to get out of the stress, and that can be very convincing. we can then start to create stories about how that's our world. That's how it's always going to be. And I think those are important to listen to as well, right? To notice, oh, my body's sending me these really important signals.
that i need to listen i need to listen to why i'm angry or sad or scared and that that's not our probably our most authentic essence full intuitive self, that when we can shift our nervous system to a calm place, to a creative place, then that's where we can have bigger intuition about what we want in our life.
our true deep desires and needs. I'm not going to be able to connect to my deepest life's purpose or desire if I'm in a threat response, because my whole body is just going to be telling me how to be safe, how to get out of the situation. I don't have access to my deepest knowing in those moments because it's, that's not about survival. So I think really it's being able to work with the nervous system. which is a practice built over time. And I think something else that I incorporate into...
The work that I do and I find really helpful is to think about different parts of ourselves, sort of that internal family systems work or persona work to notice, oh, there's these reactive parts of me. that can take over and convince me that I need to be doing certain things, right? Like I've got a really sad part that I call my womp womp part that just really like wants to be sad, but she can.
be so convincing that she could convince me to be sad for days. I also have a really like perfectionist good girl part. And so when she gets worried, she thinks I need to do everything perfectly and control everything so that I'm safe.
And I really love both those parts of me, but I don't want them to be in control all the time. Like how to take care of them, listen to them, and then shift into my creative brain where my... my essence self is and to develop a connection with my essence self which is another part of me and that part of me is so connected to love and trust and that's where my knowing and my desires and my intuition are so i really appreciate
getting to help clients navigate these different parts of themselves, which I think works better for some people than just like, oh, how do I connect to my nervous system? Oh, I can connect to this part. of me it is connected to my nervous system yeah yeah yeah i think it really helps for sure because then it's like the little pieces right because it can be overwhelming to try to figure everything out right but it was like oh this is the one part that's showing up how do we
listen to this part and respect that part as opposed to just being like all these big pieces it's just it becomes too much and that's the point of like overwhelm right and then it doesn't really do anything right yeah and especially with eating disorders i think it can be really helpful to learn about and connect with the eating disorder part that's showing up so strong and figure out what it's really needing and what it's really trying to do so that we can
ask it to retire or take a break and let the essence self take over which you know doesn't take one session that normally takes years Well, I think what you just spoke about was like really important. So I kind of want you to talk about it again, because it's like you mentioned the eating disorder part.
Not you are this whole thing, because you mentioned that at the beginning as we started to talk, because I do think people believe that this is who they are. And so if they're listening and hearing that, I think it's really important for them to hear again, this is a part.
a coping strategy so maybe talk more about eating disorders because i think um it's something that a lot of people struggle with and um yeah so i'd really like to hear more about it yeah for sure yeah it's one of the things i'm most passionate about Because eating disorders or disordered eating or just all of that is so prevalent in our culture. And I really think that eating disorders are there to protect us just like any other part. But they're...
They can be rewarded in our society, which makes them more complex than some of our other parts. And like you said, when we identify with it, when we say, oh, I am this way, these thoughts are me. Yeah. That can be really confusing. I have so many clients that come to me and it's, it's such a confusing place to be in to say, Oh, I know my, my authentic self. Like there's something in me telling me.
That there's something wrong, right? That I'm not living my best life. But then at the same time, there's this other part that's telling me that this is what I should be doing. I should be trying to control my body and my food and my movement. And to get to pull those apart. is really powerful. I like to talk to my clients about that pretty early on to say, I, I am there. I am here to support the essence of a person.
And I'm not there to support the eating disorder running the show. And so when the eating disorder is talking to me, which I can notice and say, oh, there's the eating disorder talking. I can see that that's your eating disorder. That's not you. And I'm going to care about this eating disorder, but I'm not going to listen to it. I'm not going to believe it. I'm not going to believe the things it's telling you because I can also see the person's light.
that their true self is in there as well, no matter how covered up it is. But I think it's essential with eating disorders to pull them apart and to get to know this part that's trying to protect. eating disorders are trying to protect us from pain or trauma, trying to get us control or love or belonging. Yeah, I think what you're talking about is a really huge thing because like what you mentioned that we have the parts, right?
And so we can start to pull it apart and see that there's also other parts of us that are our highest parts and like, you know, the parts that are like. like the true essence like you mentioned because sometimes like i said when they're all tangled up together it's we like i said then it is our identity as opposed to like this is part that i feel that's coming up and trying to tell me something and protect me and then i also have this other parts of me
And so I feel like that also feels, for my system, like a lot of beautiful hope that to connect to other parts of us instead of just having this one identity and have it all like mixed up in everything we are. So I think what you're saying is super important for people to hear that, you know, it's a big deal to understand that part and to be able to actually feel it in your system as you get clarity, as you kind of slowly open these parts up and understand what they're all there to do.
Yeah. Yeah, it's one of my favorite things to do is to get to know these parts and to understand why the eating disorder is there. Like, oh, it's there to... protect from some deep pain or trauma or oh it's there to help you get love and belonging like meet your needs what valuable information because then we can decide if if that's still the way you want to get your needs met or if maybe there's a different way
Maybe we can find a more authentic way to find love and belonging, to find power and control. Maybe we can process the trauma underneath and then the eating disorder won't have a job anymore. Maybe it won't need to be there anymore. Yeah, I think it also goes back to how we are maybe not taught a lot of these things growing up because our parents didn't know them. And so, of course, we have outdated tools and strategies. And so what you're saying, I feel like you're saying is that...
As we can start to unravel these things, we can also get a lot of tools that are updated tools as opposed to old tools. And I think that's awesome. That's why I love teaching people tools as well, because then they're life strategies instead of like the coping strategies, you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Even though I'm not much of a technology person, I think about it as sort of updating the systems, updating the software. Like, okay, that's outdated. We can...
Turn it in for a new version, a new update. Rewire our brain. Yeah. I know we update our phones like every, what, a couple of months with a little update or something. Right. Might as well do with our brain system and things too. So I know that obviously the eating disorders run in different groups of people, but it tends to be a lot more with young girls and women. Why do you think that is? What's your perception of that? Yeah, that's such a great question. Oh, I mean...
There's so many layers, but ultimately I think it's the culture we live in, the patriarchy we live in, the way that from a young age, I think girls and women are taught to disconnect from their bodies and to control their bodies. to meet their needs by focusing on what the body looks like and not what it feels like to be in a body. And I think men and boys and people of all genders also experience that pressure. But definitely our culture has developed in a way to...
To focus women on that, which I think, you know, on maybe a subconscious level is to take our power away. That if we're so busy focusing on having the perfect body or eating the perfect food or... just being perfect then we're not connected to higher purpose or power we're distracted yeah um to think about that a lot of like oh there's this layer of
What would it be like if all women were fully connected to their truth and their power? We are such powerful beings. And if we were able to truly just feel what it's like to have a body. These amazing bodies that can create life and have all of these phenomenal feelings that are telling us things. I think we live in a very different world. I agree.
From my perspective, I mean, there's a lot of complexities with feminism and all these things and a lot of good intention, but I feel like there's a lot of distraction in it as well.
meaning like there's a battle a lot of times where it's like oh you don't wear makeup because it's the right thing to be feminine or you should wear makeup because it's the right thing you get to choose so it's like i feel like it still continues to distract us from our own essence and our own bodies um and that's the part that i don't like about it is that it's more distractions or more battles and more like I have to choose sides as opposed to just being like,
I get to be and I get to explore what my truth is. And I don't always know all of it, what it is, but I get to know that there are distractions and I don't have to buy into the fact that, and I'm not saying I don't, because of course we do. We're in this society and these messages constantly.
But it's still different, I think, as we become more aware of the battle, then we start to get to choose, even if we're still distracted by it. We get to come back to ourselves over and over. And I feel like that's what the real work is, is coming back over and over, not like, hey, I've had...
few months of therapy or you know somatic work and now i'm never going to have an insecurity again i don't think that's how it works it's that we get to choose self-devotion over and over and get to be curious about what stories are told and why they are and why they impact us and how do we want to show up for ourselves. And I think this distraction is a huge part of it. Yeah. I love that.
Yeah, it really makes me think about how there's not a right way to do it. I think that's part of the whole massive narrative out there. There's this right way. Yeah, the right way to wear makeup or shave your legs. eat the food or whatever and that's why i love nature because when i look at nature there's not a right way there's not a right way for a tree to grow or for a you know for a bird to build a nest like they they do it their way
And for me, that's really comforting to be like, oh, what's my way? Do I want to shave my legs? Do I want to eat chocolate for breakfast? Like I get to decide that it's my way. And of course, I can pay attention to the impact I have. But ultimately, how do I come home to myself again and again and again and not get wrapped up in trying to do it for other people? Yeah, for sure. And it definitely is complex to some degree and it takes, like I said, practice.
Yeah. Devotion to come back over and over because we will feel distracted for sure by people and what we should be instead of who we actually are. So it takes, it takes time. What do you feel like the misconceptions are around eating disorders? I mean, there's treatment centers that focus on helping women actually do the part where they're actually eating again, right? Do you find that a lot of treatments are about those?
things more than the actual root causes of the dysregulation or the coping strategies? Or what's your experience? Yeah, this is a great question because there's so many misconceptions and myths about eating disorders. which continue to evolve and having been in the eating disorder field for a long time, over a decade now, at all different levels of care, the way that I...
See it is that there's really a behavioral level with eating disorders and there's a really emotional spiritual level with eating disorders So I think it's sometimes it's more appropriate to go into that root cause, right? What is underneath this eating disorder part that's keeping it going and can we shift those roots so that then the eating disorder doesn't have a job?
But sometimes that's not the most appropriate place to start, right? If someone is so deeply in the eating disorder that their body is no longer healthy or functioning. then we need to start at that behavioral level. We need to support the body nutritionally to make sure that it's stable. Our nervous system can't really do deep processing work, deep emotional work, or trauma healing.
if our nervous system and our body isn't nourished. And so sometimes that's where we need to start. And that can be such painful, challenging work, especially when the eating disorder has taken such a hold. I think that's where I used to work. I used to work in a partial hospitalization treatment center, supporting people like really deep in their disorders to try to get out that behavioral level of just starting.
to shift their bodies. And that's really challenging. Sometimes the eating disorder is so convincing that people don't want to get better yet. They're not ready. That was definitely a challenging place for me to be too. to witness people and care so much and also respect people's choice. I really believe in timing, but sometimes we're not ready to let go of the eating disorder. Sometimes we're not ready. to feel safe in our bodies. And that's okay. When the timing's right, we'll be ready.
But I hope that answered your question of like, yes, there's these different levels. We have to do some of the behavioral work and then also do the emotional work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just sounds complex, you know, to like I said, if.
Even if we don't eat enough protein and things, sometimes it's really hard to stay regulated and we don't have the right nutrition. So I can understand how complex that would be for someone if it's really kind of a chronic thing where they're not doing well because of it.
I can see that as being a very complex thing, trying to support someone's behavior at the same time, making sure they can stabilize in other parts of themselves too. So I admire the people who try to help people. And I also really honor the part that you said that. um it's the right divine timing for certain people sometimes they're just not ready to begin that journey exactly yeah yeah and to speak to the misconception part too you know i think eating disorders are really tricky because
We can have this idea that you can see an eating disorder, that there's one type of body. We think of smaller bodies and being like, oh, that's what an eating disorder looks like. And that's so not true. Most eating disorders, maybe not most, but many, many eating disorders are in all different sized bodies. Larger bodies, smaller bodies, bodies in the middle. Eating disorders don't discriminate.
and that can be really tricky i work with a lot of clients who are like oh but i'm not sick enough my body doesn't look like an eating disorder but there can still be a very strong eating disorder in the picture I wish, I wish that was different, these misconceptions and the stigma around it, but that could shift because the more silence there is.
the more space there is for an eating disorder to grow. And the more light we can shine on it, the more we can actually see what's happening, be brave enough to speak up or find safe people we can tell, find support groups. I really think the more light there is, the less space there is for an eating disorder to have the power. Yeah. I know that the book Unbound.
A Woman's Guide to Power, she talks a lot about like the things unsaid. We all have these things that linger and fester inside of us that never been said out loud. And so it's like I said, like in the darkness, right? And instead of bringing light, as you're mentioning.
Because we need people too. There's parts of us that do the work on our own and we have that magic within us, but we need support and connection. And to be able to say things unsaid for a lot of people is really scary. It can be really, I feel, really liberating as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why I love group spaces. There's so much power in individual therapy to have that safe cocoon of space to do the inner work. And then I also think having group therapy.
or safe community, safe circles is powerful in its own way to get to be witnessed in our brightest light and in our deepest darkness. And know that we're not alone. We all have struggles. Yeah, I think it really normalizes things for people. And I know we've been in circles together with beautiful witnessing. And I know from my own healing journey, groups and communities have been a huge element.
of the work and definitely a lot of self work as well. And, you know, there's times I've been in almost like a cocoon of like not being as social because I, you know, needed to step away, you know, and stuff like that. So I think that's part of the healing journey too, where it's like, we're allowing.
contraction but again i don't think that people see it as a positive thing always and i think that it is because we need times sometimes when we are exhausted and we need to step away from things and um
And that can feel hard too, because we do celebrate productivity, like as you have mentioned. And so I think anytime you do trauma work or anything that's heavier, there's going to be times where we need to step away and be in contraction and not try to force ourselves out of contraction because then... i think then we're just overriding ourselves again i mean it's not like you want to get stuck there but sometimes it's a valid necessary thing to be able to be in contraction
in a cocoon and then we'll emerge but i think the more we try to force ourselves out of it and make ourselves wrong for it the longer we stay in there um and so when i definitely started doing a lot of my deeper trauma healing I feel like it was like a year and a half that I was kind of less social and didn't do as much. And I didn't exactly have all the connections to my hobbies and things like that. And it felt hard, but I knew for me, it felt like a necessary stuff.
And I definitely have merged out of it by this time. But there was a time that I really needed that. So I'm sure that a lot of clients will also experience such things. I don't know if you've had experiences like that. Yeah, I really appreciate you naming that and sharing. Yeah, it feels so true for me. I resonate a lot with that and how challenging it can be to follow our natural flow, right? That's another place where we get to honor our intuition or fight it. Yeah.
I know for me, I struggle to listen when my body really wants to cocoon and rest and be quiet and be alone. that my my should monster can still come out and say but oh you should be with your friends and you should be doing that's that's still my work is to quiet some of those parts so that i can be with
where the river is actually flowing. I like to think about rivers that they, they're flowing in a certain direction. If I try to block them up or change the direction or damn it, like that's not supporting me to actually let myself follow. where my energy is actually going and not make myself wrong for it oh gosh i think we all make ourselves so wrong for things so easily you know and so it's like noticing that and you know
that that's okay too. And then we continue the journey. And I think to the back to what we're talking about earlier too, it's like sometimes when we're feeling like triggered or stressed out or sad, sometimes we don't.
I think it's almost like probably an inner child thing to some degree too, where it's like, we don't want to feel better in the moment, you know, because a lot of times we're not allowed to feel sad or angry as children. And so like when even our partner or someone's trying to help us with the best intentions, we're like, we don't.
we don't want to get fixed or we don't want to breathe. We only just want to feel fucking bad, you know? And so I, that's, I feel like that's also following almost like a contraction to some degree where we like allow that. And not stay in it and continue to have tantrums because that doesn't serve anybody, right? But like sometimes we've never experienced that and we just don't want to have our thinking brain online and just follow.
the fact that we're fucking mad you know and so i think that's an important part of healing today where it's like no i should just be better and i should always just be smiling and like no you can be angry so i think all those places all play huge roles in our healing Yes, exactly. Yeah, I love working with emotions in that way that sometimes, often, the way to shift from reactive brain to creative brain is through.
the emotion is to let ourself make the anger bigger, make the sadness bigger to be with it. Cause it's trying to tell us something and it's going to keep hanging out until we really let ourselves be with it. Yeah. I think I've told this story before on my podcast, but I think it's valid. It's like,
I came home from a really long road trip a few years ago, and the boys were pretty young, and I was so mentally and physically exhausted. I had a hard time coping because I was so tired, and there were still things to get done. I think my dog had been threatened by a skunk.
when they were my mother-in-law so that added another stressor but they were gonna go pick her up and it was gonna be like oh our dog but then it was like all the stress and i was fighting the exhaustion like big time i'm like i'm not gonna feel that i'm not gonna
go into it it's terrifying to be that exhausted but i remember i got in the shower and i started to feel the warm water and really was present with it i started to move my body and kind of let myself feel the exhaustion and the dread of exhaustion and once i did that i felt like
things started to shift where it wasn't so terrifying anymore and it didn't have as much hold over me i mean i was still tired of course but the fear of being exhausted and maybe maybe not being capable of being able to put the kids to bed or whatever it is was really overpowering in that moment so i was able to like allow myself to follow it and be with it as opposed to like so much energy that I was having to fight that urge to not be tired and so it's like those moments you know
Oh, I appreciate that story so much. Yeah, it takes more energy sometimes to not feel our feelings than to feel our feelings. I really appreciate throwing tantrums. Sometimes I'm taking so much energy to push my anger down that it's exhausting. And when I let myself, sometimes I'll walk around the block and stomp my feet like I'm a little kid.
just like throw a tantrum or lay on the floor of my office and kick and scream and it like sometimes the anger then will dissipate in three to five minutes i'm like oh why didn't i do that yesterday here i am trying so hard not to be angry when i normally end up giggling because anger can be so fun it's like oh it's just telling me that i didn't want that to happen Yeah, emotions are a powerful tool of understanding.
I think it's great where we can express them. And yeah, I think that if you're not used to doing it, it feels terrifying to go into them. I feel like you're going to be stuck there forever. And sometimes, you know, they can't linger. But I've also found that if the more we're...
dipping our toe into and allowing it they're more likely it's going to dissipate much further faster than we ever could have thought right yeah yeah exactly and it takes practice and sometimes we need a safe person to be there with us so we know we won't get stuck for sure yeah yeah those containers of support are huge for exploring the things that we've never explored before so
I know that adventure is also one of the things, like I said, that you do with your husband a lot and pushing like physical edges. Is there any part of that that feels like support and healing and self-discovery? Like what's your journey with that? Yeah, I love this. I have really embraced in the past few years how much physical challenge supports me to be my best self.
That when I get to challenge my body and the edges of my physical capacity, it reminds me of how capable I am, how strong I am in all other parts of my life. When I can... reach a goal like get to the top of a mountain or spend a long day moving my body on a backpacking trip then I remember like oh I'm so capable I'm so capable of holding
pain. I'm so capable of resilience. That's a lot of the reason I do the things I do and also because they bring me great joy. Like that I get to be in that creative brain when I'm outside and moving my body that it connects me to that more expansive version of myself and then that makes me a better human and a better therapist that I get to be with.
my soul more often for longer periods of time yeah i love that i've been doing pilates the last few months again and i feel so much stronger physically and i had a lot of celebration in that recently because um you know i've had some arthritis and difficulties in my body over years and to feel that strong it does help uh with not to self-confidence but it's just like it reminds me that i am powerful and my body is strong and capable because it is easy to forget
Whether it's physical struggles or other type of struggles, we feel disempowered in our system. And so I do agree that when we can step into things that maybe would seem like it's too hard or not doable, that when we can start to accomplish it a little bit, it does. It does bring back a lot of empowerment in the system. Yeah, that's why I do it. Ultimately, it feels empowering and connective and full of love.
So I love all the modalities and the beautiful things you bring into the work and into the world. Besides those, who do you believe you are at the core of your essence? Like who is Zoe other than... the therapist and the nature and the venture like what what are you who are you um big questions I have landed on that my soul's purpose is to love and be loved. And so when it, when it comes down to it, yeah, like if I'm not adventuring, if I'm not with clients, my goal is simply to love.
And maybe that's loving people. I love so many people. I fall in love really easily with people. Well bragged because humans are just amazing. But also falling in love with a moment or a thing. a piece of music. I think that's who I am at my core. As well as the trust. I trust so deeply that things are working out exactly as...
They're meant to, even when it's hard. That's part of it. It feels very beautiful in my system as you share that. Thank you for telling us. Thanks for asking that question. i love that question because we're so much you know they get but the core of who we are you know other than all the things that we do in our lives and so yes um and let's see If someone is struggling and believe that healing is maybe not possible for them, what do you have to say to them?
It's okay to be there. I think it's really okay to be with the doubt and the fear and the uncertainty. The unknown, right? It's so valid to not. know if we'll be able to heal. Yeah, I think that's such a beautiful place to start, to let ourselves really be in that place before we try to move in any other direction.
Wow. Yeah, I think you definitely have a beautiful soul and transmission and I feel touched by what you share and how you do the work and how you show up in the world. So I really appreciate that. I'm going to share, of course, everything as far as your links and things on the podcast episode. But do you want to share a little bit about how you do some of these wilderness retreats or anything that hasn't been said yet? Yeah.
Yeah, I just want to reflect the appreciation back first. Really appreciate getting to be on the podcast and feel your energy and feel what you create in the world. I feel inspired so much. I can tell my day is going to be full of light and love. And yeah, I run backpacking trips in the summer. I take a few weeks off of my...
normal therapist job so that I can go guide people in the wilderness. I like to see it as an inner and outer journey that we're not just exploring the mountains, but we're also exploring the big questions in our life. We invite people to show up with whatever is there on the inside, sort of chewing away and wanting to be known so that we can presence that and be with it.
explore it together explore some of these parts of ourselves and the emotions that are trying to tell us things and to do so in the supportive supportive space of nature so this year we're gonna be doing two backpacking trips we did one last year and i'm really excited sounds like an epic adventure um i definitely think uh it's something people should definitely try so thank you for sharing that and again i so much
Appreciate all your wisdom and what you're doing in the world and for being on the show. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on this enlightening journey through the realms of self-discovery and healing. If you're inspired to deepen your exploration further, I offer personalized one-on-one sessions both in person and virtually.
Whether you're seeking to reconnect with your body, explore your sensuality, or navigate the complexities of somatic healing, I'm here to guide you at every step of the way. Remember, the power to transform lies within you. And we also need community and we need support. Until next time, stay grounded, stay connected and trust in the wisdom of your body. Remember, it's a practice.