Are our non reverend saints. We must focus, our brothers, We must focus. So thank you, ladies, gentlemen, for coming to the official episode of Everyday black Mail Podcast, a podcast authentic black mail thoughts.
You have your boy Wriker here, you got Reed Sham white House, you stylish the writer.
The only person we.
Don't have to fear is Armstead and black Linterian, but I'm pretty sure one of the two will join us midway through the episode. But most importantly, we have a bunch of guests, and I mean a bunch of guests. We have our.
Second time on the podcast as a guest, doctor Gucci, and we also have coming today for a special guest spot. We have doctor Donovan and he's gonna tell us a little bit more about a documentary that he's working on, and then we were going to ask some questions, but doctor Donovan, we're going to clear the floor for you.
Of course, you also grow out to the Patreon, but tell us tell us a little bit more about what made you decide.
To get into making a documentary and also tell the folks a little bit more about what it's about.
I want to thank you for inviting me to this podcast. To speak of the doctor vinry that I've been working on. It's called breaking Barriers Black Males into Medicine. So the reason why I made this documentary because I've been in
medical education for over forty years. I worked at various medical schools across the country, and around twenty fifteen, the WMC, which is the U brother the Association of American Medical Colleges, I came out with this this report talking about that black males since nineteen seventy eight, the numbers have been decreasing representation in medicine, and for black women the numbers
have been have been increasing since nineteen eighty six. So as I was getting my dissertation, I wanted to really look at this problem from a not from what's going on, but by deaths about the meaning what are the things that you know black males don't have and what are some of the things that are impacting them. I really
wanted to find solutions to the problem. So this was part of my dissertation and I decided to turn it into a documentary because I think there's not been many conversations around this this epidemic and the numbers really with a double ABC since in nineteen seventy eight is really false.
It's actually since nineteen forty.
The numbers have in nineteen the percentage of black males in nineteen forty that we're in medical school were two point seven. Am hearing today the number six state hadn't gone up, but they kind of dipped a little bit at two point six. So this is a problem that really impacts the overall health. Health is wealth, and one of this documentary is based out of the city of Detroit.
Detroit is one that is due I think mythis has to pass it as the predominantly black city, but this is if the impact of black males really cause a lot of health disparities. And the reason why we see why it's so important to know is because we had off the off the conversation we're having about the Super Bowl. You see predominantly black males and athletics. And one of the reason why you see predominantly black males in medicine, I mean and afflex is because of because it's money
in it. Okay, it's money in having black mails and you can control their bodies. There's not any money, ah, No, not any money when it comes to black males as physicians because the money is keeping a black community six due to pharmaceuticals, right I. Diabetes is one of the things, hypertension, you know, all these different you know, uh, preventative medicine, Preventative diseases can be preventative and all the with all the researcher says, black men are the most likely to
practice in their community, to practice in the underserved community.
So the lack of black males in medicine, it's.
Impacted overall health of the Black community and communities that have lack of access to health. So this is why it's so critical that we really uh look at the This is why this documentary is so important that to bring this probable to the masses. Because of medical school, they've known this. This is nothing new in the medical field. Everyone does. This is something that they talk about all the time. But the money is not in the solution. The money is in the problem. So this is why
I made this documentary. This is the second documentary that was one made by like Me and the White Coats. This is another documentary to really you know, talk about this, to create a forum to talk about this problem.
Well, excellent and thank you for kind of diving into it.
I know that question.
Go ahead, Red, all right, Hey, so the one thing that I've noticed about doctors. Let's go so doctors begin doctors? Me like, so, uh, second generation doctors, third generation doctors. Do you think that's part of the problem. And just throw a little thing on this. I know a lot of black people who are becoming doctors, but they aren't Black Americans. They are like immigrants or immigrants children, which are Black Americans. But I'm saying there's a difference without
the distinction there. But what do you think that's the case too? As well as you know you hit, you hit the doll over the head, brother, that is cover. That's that's a very controversial topic in medicine. One of my good one of my mentors uh doctor doctor times uh, he's come up with this. Who really is a position?
He's out in uh ran rapids, you know, he's out in in Harvard, Michigan, and he really always talks about like called dosa. Uh it's called the descendants enslave people. Oh that's just nothing, love that nature. And he really talks about when we look at African American males, you look at the ones who come from you know, the historical slave trade numbers are even worse, like the numbers are private, like point two point two point five, So
you're right, you know, yeah. But also what's very interesting is if you look at those those uh, those ones who come from Africa, the Caribbee, just the second generation, those ones who are coming into you know, medisine now are practice of medicine. I guarantee their first generation because when the second generation experiences are just like African Americans, right, because they have been indoctrinated into the into the into America's uh, euro centric education system, which I don't.
Think they would give They wouldn't give that dedication to the black community. They would give to their own distinct communities. And that would be different versus Black community, wouldn't it be that like uh, well, like doctor would probably being a Nigerian neighborhood. Not necessarily they're probably following money.
They're like, I got a question about that. Read what you're saying.
I was thinking about.
It's not a I don't think it's always like as black and white.
Do you like when those first generation and second generation Africans come here, there's not a what's the word a hindrance and confidence and capability because I look at I look at I'll say, my family. We get two black doctors in the family, and my mother automatically assumes the woman is a nurse all the time, and like we're looking at her like we got to like yo, children,
because not disrespectful, because the nurses a respectable position. But I think it's like a degradation of confidence within like the community where how many black families coming up from poverty like encourage their kids to be doctors versus like you said, Uh, it's a family that I has one, and you know there's a.
Second when your parents can pay for you to be a doctor.
That's what I was saying, Like, well, I mean it's not even just the case though my cousin, Uh, he didn't come from the same background I did with the Harvard and all that. You know, it's just also knowing that rule. Well, no, I'm not talking about the exception the fact that he knew how to navigate certain navigues when it came to fundy. It wasn't like nobody told him to be a doctor.
We heard that. We were like, oh, ship, like you know, but yeah, exactly.
Positions I know they get into like sports medicine, and I'm like, it's not there.
Yeah, So I think again what the doctor was saying is that, you know, there's many motivations for people getting into medicine.
Well, actually his documentary, if you watch the color, it does say that.
Yeah, And I'm also an inspiring physician and working on navigating this very very treacherous water.
It isn't easy. Financing is only one problem.
And even if you're a generation physician, right, like let's say your parents are physicians or your family had physicians and then they they helped you get along the bandwagon, right, there's also many challenges within becoming a doctor. And then when you are a doctor, there is a lot of challenges within there. And you know that that navigating that field it can be very arguous when you don't have guidance in the field. So that's also a major difference.
And actually, when you're going back to like why you know black physicians are on decline, you know, there's many factors. In history plays a huge part of it, whereas in education when it comes to black men, very huge part. Also when it comes to the black culture in America being how do you say, de educated, demonetized, they were attacked.
So when they had an upcome coming just after was it the Civil War?
The Yeah, after the Civil War where you had black trying to get get ahead and they were starting to get ahead, and then you have the this establishment actually attacked them to break them down.
You know.
That also had an effect on.
Educational standards and things. That's what they do.
That's when the price of education.
But there was also a bounce back when it came.
To actually, you know HBCUs HBCU saw this and saying, you know what, we need to go ahead and attack this issue. So we're going to create our own schools so that they could actually you know, challenge the status quote, which they've done.
But it still is a very arguous path to navigate.
And I think that one that's inspiring to be a physicians.
You guys.
Yeah, what I was gonna say is, I mean, let's hear about it from the other side, doctor Gucci. What was it like navigating the waters in another country versus navigating the waters here?
Yeah? Good after everyone just to be here. Yeah, medicine in in Nigeria of his meeting in America are quite very different entities, although it's the same storyline. Metine. But the practice is you know, much more different, because first of all, you see very different kinds of diseases. Most of the diseases come on here are not very very common over there, you know. You know, in Nigeria, I was still think we're still talking about things like polio,
were still talking about things like malaria. You know, these are things that have been eradicated. You know in the developed countries. You know, there are set in diseases we saw, you know, we just told oh, if you happen to travel abroad, you see this. But you know, trust me, I haven't been in I haven't navigated med school here in the you know, in the in the US or in the Caribbean US community. I know for a fact that I've seen and have you know, been able to
witness some of these conditions. Even also, the medical curriculum is also streamlined in a way that you have a straight seven year metic cause in Nigeria and Visavis. Yeah, you go to the sciences first, you know, graduate from the sciences and then you know, you go straight into metine for another four years. So the curriculums are quite different. But at the end of the day, it's the same alcohol,
which is meting. But again the pattern of diseases you see, you know, like in in Nigeria, I talk about malaria. In America, you talk about that asius is. You know, most of those cancers you know we see and read on reading books are just are things that we you know, we're reading passing. But here you begin to see that you get to see a different pattern of you know, diseases that you see, but which is good because you have a perfect blend of what is obtainable in Africa
and what is obtainable back in the years. Talking about the topic for today, which is about you know, black men in medicine, I feel that, yeah, I heard when the doctor said that the numbers have been very constant. It's been very very constant since the forties, and you know, at two point six, two point seven, it's still not enough because we need we definitely, we definitely need more
black people in metine. To be honest, We're definitely more black people and more black men in meeting because this will Having more black people in meeting helps with you know, the health disparities. You know, it helps to cush on the head disparity that you have and helps us to build trust you know, within the community, within within the population here. I also believe that, you know, having more black people in medicine will help with you know, increasing
and you know, increasing access to healthcare. And I think the bottom line is that trust. So if you if you trust the system, you would you want to you know, commit further, you want to commit more to the to the process. So, yeah, we really do need more black people in medicine.
Thank you, doctor. Uh sorry, do you have something doctor, Yeah.
Yeah, okay, So I was talking about I was trying to, you know, make some adducement for some of the reasons why we have some of these you know, dis reductions in black males in medicine. I think from statistics, you find out that you know, two tots of the population of doctors are white. That's a huge chunk, about sixty five point six percent, you know, you know quite you know further, eighteen percent are Asians and eight point nine percent that Hispanics or Latinos. I have just five percents
for you know, for black doctors. And of that two point eight you know identify as black women and you know, to six for the men.
So that's two.
Point six is really really small. I also believe that what the reasons for that, you know, some of the reasons why that number it's very very low, you know, has to do with discrimination, you know, racial and financial disparities. You know, when you compare you know, the white vis
against the blacks for the most part. And you know the fact that you know, if you have less people, less black males in medicine, you know, you have less mentorship, you know, and that will also effect you know, mentorship and you know, networking. So if you have more people in metine, you have more mentorship and you have more networking,
you know, these avis. And then there's already this you know, the media has been patent in such a way that you know, they give a kind of negative disposition towards minorities, and this creates a kind of i would say, maybe internalized ptereotypes. You know, so that also has a wealth affecting the psyche of you know, an average person who's trying to you know, get into medicine and all that. So, yeah, go ahead, No, I was going to.
Ask a question, sorry to interrupted, uh, with your experience overseas out of the country versus here, have you ran into the disparity and just classes or you know.
Some the nepotism of students in MAD school that.
Come from you know, second third generation of I'm specifically target the white white uh MAD students and doctors too, you know, the intimidation tactics or judgmental uh you know active, what's the judgmental uh practices towards you know, the black or brown skinned you know, students and whatnot.
Like that's a is it?
Is it anything like that going on over there versus you know here, like you spoke of the discriminations and separation.
Yeah, so.
I trained, I trained back in Anigeria and I also elected to retrain back here in the in the US.
So I attended.
You know, I'll use my I use myself as an example. I went back to a Caribbean med school here. And you know, even in the med school, the way you could see you could see those stereotypes, you could see
those you could see that disparity as well. You know, the school I went to is largely populated by you know, the whites from you know, like American whites, you know vis a vis you know, you still have some blacks too, But you could also see how you know, even in class and how you know, when we have setting programs together, how setting set of people, even though they don't try to.
Make it very very.
Obvious, but you can also see that some setting set of people are favored, you know, more than the other set of people. We see these things, but we just act like you know, it's you know, the way the way sometimes some of these you know, collect teachers or professors will treat the same kind of students, it's not the same way they will treat you know, an immigrant or you know, like somebody coming a black person or somebody coming from India or you know, so it's also
also different. And if you have an Indian professor, the way he's going to treat Indians, it's not the same way he's going to treat you know, an average black person like me coming from Nigeria in the US going
to a Carribean med school. So it's those things are always there, and so to some extent, collectively has a wealth affecting affecting you know, how you navigate if you're some if you're someone who pays, who is very very if you're someone who you need to develop some set kind of tough skin, you know towards some of this thing, because if you don't, it has a wealth affecting your psyche and how you you know, how you see things, you know going forward. So I just believe that, yeah,
those things are always they always there. They're always there if you if you the same, it's Doublestand that the same way you would treat a typical white, you know, student, it's different from the same way you would treat Even though they try to make it like, oh, it's all diversity, we're all the same. You know, we treat everybody eat pollipod. We still know because we see some of these things that oh, when it's like this, this person gets the treatment.
But when it's like this, this person gets treatment. So it's always there. We say these things all the time.
And I want to support what doctor Chris said because I've been the vice dean of diversity Echo with the inclusion and uh several medical schools, and he's all right, there's a different here where you're talking about the way students are treated em medical school. And one of the things that really impact you know, African American students is the fact that it's this sense that they're there because of them being you know, because of their scared color,
which is not true. They really have to go through a lot to get into medical schools. They had to, they went through a lot of adversity, especially black males. They've they've done all the necessary work in order to be in medical school. And this is this sense that they they were there because of a quota or affirmative action,
the diversity equity inclusion, and we all know that. You know, if you look at the numbers the people who benefited benefited from diversity equity inclusion, the last is not black males. Black males are the least the population who did not benefit from niversity equity clus It's actually white women.
So that's white women.
So so when you look at medical education, you look who now are medical education now, it's fifty fifty women, and majority of those are going to be white women. So when you're talking about, you know, this atmosphere that black males are being, you know, I'm sure that in medical education is really a hostile environment.
It's an environment that really say that they want to.
Support, you know, everything, everybody's equal. But once once you get onto that campus and you see the truth, it really impacts you in a negative way. I mean, before you can even start to study, you have to impact all the microaggressions and all the you.
Know, avert.
Biases that you're you're dealing with, and then you know, by the time it's seven or eight, you have to then start shift and pivot and study.
So this is it's a hostile and it's a very hostile environment that you walking it too.
And just because you see another black professor or you see another like a physician within those walmths, don't necessary means that they're not gate keepers too.
I would question how often do you see that?
Because everybody that I've met, or even my wife now who's going to PA program, I haven't heard any of them speak of having a.
Black lecturer, professor or anything of that story.
Like, it's very uncommon for what I you know, the few I've ran into, which it sucks because outside of just representation, is just to have that that at least some sense of comfort be like, Okay, well I'm not the only one here outside of other class students.
If you get another student, I'm gonna give.
You, I'm gonna give you a story, who's an African American physician, high breaking in the school I once worked in too cidents. He we had a conversation one we have these like they have these they try to get they try to build some solidary amongst the students. So it was just you know event for all all African Americans,
you know, students. He stood up and told the African American students that in this setting he will support them, but on that campus he will not because it was it would it would in the sense that he's only for African American students or you see, but nobody questions, you know, when the white professors give the white students, or the Indians give the Indian students, or you know, no more are the Asian physicians gives the Asian students proof you know, support them.
It's only when it comes to us. Here's a second.
This gentleman has been at the school for about ten years and we had, you know, our graduation and he told me that he didn't know any of the graduating students walked across the stage. That's concerning. This guy was like secondary charge at the medical school. And he gave me this other this last example, I want to get how skinned folks and kid folks. He told me that a gentleman told him, if he sees more than two black people in the room, he knows he's gonna get poorer.
And that's cooled himself. So it's this elite. It's a elitist when it comes to black physicians. And I'm not a physician. I've just been in the field for twenty years. It's an elite. It's an elitist, you know club and unfortunately, a you know, pick and choose who they feel is worthy of being in that club. And sometimes it's based off of colorism. We still know that in our community.
Colorism is real, especially after American community. So well, the darker you are, from my perspective, less likely you know, you'll be part of the club. And those are some of the things that I for me being in the field for twenty years, you know, being a vice day, which is you know, hit the silly for not being a physician, but he had to become a vice deam.
And that's one of the things that really impacted me in order to write and I'm writing, I'm writing three books at the same time about how we can increase black belt representation and how do we re imagine diversity, equity, inclusion within medical school and also to the therd ones. I'm a lovely specialist. I think one of the things that impact a lot of the students for not being successful is that a lot of students do not know how to stay study independently. You learned twenty percent of
content within the classroom. Eighty percent of what you're gonna learn is in your class is outside the classroom. So out of preview, out of you know, write notes all these things. You think that a lot of physician students were coming. And it's not just African American, it's all students. A lot of students do not know how to study independently,
and that is the biggest barrier. It's not the fact that if your Americans don't have how the intellectual capacity goes back to what one of gentlemer says, it's the social capital. Like they don't have the mentorship, social capital, they don't have the necessary tools to succee.
So what they do is they brually go through it by just grinding, grinding, grinting because they used to face the adversity which led them to be successful.
So this is what one of the things that are really trying to you're probably probably part of the solution, the start of the problem, the problem they're talking about this, but I think this is why it's so important that we are the solutions and not talking about the deficit, but talk about how can we increase And I really feel that medical schools really have the power to do something, but few of the one hundred and fifty schools really really put anybody or put any muscle behind, you know,
solve this problems where they know what the outcomes and how beneficial it is to the Africabank community to have more Black belts as physicians.
I have to also add onto that because what I've also noticed in the community is the socioeconomical status plays a huge role. And it's basically picking off of what you said, doctor Roy, where you know, students don't know how to study. And then there's another thing also in medical school that most people don't know, and it's adaptability, not just knowing how to stay, but to change your study method or just change your approach on tackling a
problem when you see a problem arising, adjusting quickly. And I noticed because I actually have a doctor that I talked to that's married to my mother and like I talked to him about how he went through med school, and he act like it was nothing because his primary schooling they taught him all the skills that he needed that he can use to flourish in medical school.
Like he didn't even really bad an eye.
But like when I look at it, I was like, none of my schools taught me these these tools to study and to learn. I had to learn these tools and learn how to apply them in this medical setting. And I actually noticed too, like talking to other young black individuals going.
Through their.
Their schools, their schools aren't necessarily teaching them. Hey, look, this is how you study, this is how you be proficient, this is how you do things. In order for the black community to get around that seeing this with my family is that they actually send their children to these white schools or to these Ivy League schools, and then they actually end up teaching them skills so that when they go into college they can flourish because they've learned
those skills that the whites use. So and again, as you said, doctor Roy, like blacks don't necessarily black the commitment or the mental cognitive ability.
It's just that they don't.
They lack the tools because they're not in the environments that which they are taught so that they can thrive.
I totally agree with that that is so important. It also goes back to what you just said. They also see when you send your.
Child to one of those, you know, private schools that really have a strove science component, a lot of that stuff that you're seeing in high.
School is going to be repeated in college. So a lot of times if you go to a low resource school.
As an African American, mail of the people who are teaching the sciences, they're not graduating with a science background.
That's something else that we need to discuss. Or your school don't have you.
Know, chemistry and biology, you have Earth science, life science, you don't have the you know, the you know, the the the experience of going through these science courses and the first time that you ever see those courses as a freshman, where you're when your colleagues are seeing this for the second time, when you know, the more you
see something, the more you learn it. And once you so when you get into your sophomore year of college, that's where you see a huge fall off of African American band going into UH into premads, they end up dropping out because they as they go further in the advanced science. Again the disease again to the it's not the fact that like it. Once again, it's not the fact they don't have the intellectual capacity to be successful. It's the lack of opportunity, then the lack of social
capital it are to be successful. So research says that entering that entering undergraduate schools, around forty two percent of after Americans want to go into be pre bad or still feel same as white males forty five when the numbers at the end of we at the end, you got a forty percent of the Occasian males that graduated.
When you look at the black mails, you see five percent. So we see.
From the inside out, is there also some.
Some form of favoritism when there's Caucasian or like you said, Indian Asian that there is a struggle and they allow some like venda rules or curved because I've heard of this is where some students didn't necessarily pass whatever exam or I forget the different terminology of what they have or end of course or whatever, but they are.
Giving a second chance to either retake or you know that there's a review of what the results are and to get them right over the.
That's a good question. So what we see is.
Sciences is a doggy dog world. Everybody eats their own. That's one thing. Okay, so everybody eats their own. But when you're talking about people going to their own silos, so you'll see you know, the Asian kids study only with the educ Asian kids. You see the the African Americans students, No far, it's only a couple study with each other. So that's another for number. But also too fraternities. What I've heard this, this is not just what students.
I heard this all the time. The fraternities, the white fraternities have the exams. If you have a profession that I've been teaching there for fifty to twenty years, he's not gonna change up there. He's not gonna change up the exam. So you have these fraternity guys who actually remember the questions and the answers, and they have a like a they have a like a database or a filar system where they say, oh, if you're taking this class,
here's the exam. Because one of my students was like, she was struggling and she knowed this white guy who never came to class, but he always got a's and he will he took pity on her because she was stressing out.
He was like, he's like, you.
Don't have the questions the answer to the exam. It's like, she's like, what it's like here, here's the answer to the exam. Everybody has these accept you, this is why you struggling. He ended up getting the A. And of course because this one white guy took pitiot on her. So to answer your question, it's not it goes back to that social network. It goes back to social network. Is that when we get into the space, we do not have the social network in order to level the
playing field for us. We Actually that's why I say when African Americans get into medical school, male or female or Latinos, when they get into medical school, they I'll say, not all white students have that same privilege, but a lot of them, you know, have that. You know a lot of them have earned their way in because they have to work hard, doubly hard in order to be there because of there's lack of social network and social capital that other population. And I don't want to diminish
the hard work, because medical school is no joke. I mean, if anybody who play sports or folk especially football, of gone through hell week, back to school is like going through forty eight months of hell week. It is intense, it is crazy. If you don't have the necessary resources to be successful in it, if you don't have the social network to be successful, it is going to be a grinding That's why you see a lot of students that in the passes, not because they don't have the
capacity or the financial support. It's the fact that it is a doggie dog world and everybody stay home.
Yeah, I like to add I can add to that real quick, So I agree with what you're saying about the doggy dog world. Also in medical school, I think one of the biggest things.
Know.
The big thing I saw was the Indian communities. They look out for each other, but the Blacks do not. I remember, like some people would have papers, have ances to papers, keeping that for themselves. And also where you have a group of people studying together. Sometimes I might be wrong, but sometimes the male folks things. They think that they are better off or they are better than this other person and don't come. That's all about humbling yourself.
Wanting to understand. I wanted to know what's going on. But if you feel like you're better than this person, because okay, first of all, I went to some school in Mississippi or something like that, you would not be able to get other material from people.
So that's one thing.
Humility is something I feel like most of us black people lack. And then secondly is we're not looking out for each other. Those are the two things I think we're the biggest things for the Black community.
In medical school, Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with I agree with the last with DJ.
Yeah.
I had a similar experience. And while in the Caribbean, there was a time some of our exams were being set by one one medical body, and you know, most of the time they were repeating questions and some some like most of the Indian folks, had answers to those questions, and they were doing.
Very, very very well.
You see some people that don't come to class, they don't do anything, but they just aggregate themselves together during the exams. Yeah, close to exam exam time and they come out in flying colors, and everybody's like, oh, these people are very good. They are so good. I remember I had my colleagues and my friends had to sweat for every every every every score we got in the exam.
We had to put in so much work. But people there were people who were not doing so much and they were just coming out with you know, straight grades like that. It was later on when the school NaSTA, they said in house questions that we decided that we now knew that you know, most of these things were because most of the time it was because this is already seen the past questions, they revised it over and
over and over and over and over. So it goes back to what DJ said and what uh doctor doctor right, Yeah, yeah, it goes back to what you said that you know, sometimes when people are able to just you know, we we you know, we don't have that social that social mentorship. You know, we don't have that social capacity, you know, as a group to be able to help ourselves and be able to do things in a way that that in a way that benefits us. So yeah, I quite agree with you. I agree with totally.
And also to sometimes we don't want to bit we were struggling, you know, we don't go seek help. And this is understanding because when you see help, you don't get the same help as someone else for African Americans, and it's always looking at oh, that's what are you doing wrong? What are you're not doing right?
And it's to say and it could be the fact that the instructor lacks the ability to connect the.
Content to the students.
I think we put and I always stood up said that it's sometimes it's not the students, it's the information that's been delivered to the students and how the people who are delivered the information are not making those associations. So that's another thing that really is an advocate. A lot of times when you go to the schools, you
don't have someone like myself advocating or the students. And if you advocate for this for African Americans, you are sean, you are isolated, and you have to be very strong. Is what the students are growing up. Because I always tell the students sparing what you're going through because I'm going through the same thing.
And I'm an adult.
I'm six six, I'm a former office of Line and I play at the University Southern California, So I understand about adversity. I'm I'm built for this, but a students need someone who's gonna advocate you if you don't have no one advocating for you as African because because really medicine is anti Black, education is anti Black, and especially medicine because you know, a lot of the diseases that.
Are being taught or not talk from an African American spective, relying to skin. We relying to skin.
A lot of the stuff that they see, they rarely see it on the African American patient of the skin, of the skin tone. So that's another thing that I had that when it come to Madison, you have to really eliminate the hitting biases, a lot of human biases. When it comes to us, it's all about stereotype. It's all about stereotype.
I find it an interest in everything that y'all hit on and even the questions y'all answered for us identify possibly the top key points with the Black Americans in every field where we don't succeed outside of when they want us to succeed in sports and entertainment, but in the professional world, in a lower education, higher education, doctors like you said, and all these professions, and I you know from the book that we speak on all time and here outliers to other books that talk on just
strike within human humans period. We are the only culture that are self deprecated. Like we we don't help each other, and it's crazy to like, I don't know how many times the discussion has to be made on small platforms the big platforms, but it's just interesting to hear you you guys all from different background, same profession, but that's like the common denominator and then you can align it with all the other, you know, environments that Black Americans.
Are in, and it's always other Blacks don't help us.
We don't have like it's a it's a it's a rarity that's crazy for you know, it's not crazy for me to hear, but it's just, you know, for lack a better.
Term, he said, they can't help you without suffering a consequence.
Also in it too, though, that's enlignment because we regardless of what environment, it's it's the barriers internally and externally that we run into.
And you know, it's ignored obviously by the other side.
You know, even when you said the I and I was muted, but like I laughed because like it's there to do, you know, great things, and yet it's that turning.
White women.
And I'm talking about what it was meant for versus what it is for.
No, what it is for, what it's meant to do. It did what it was meant to do. It was never to help black people like black men exactly. I mean, you'll probably get one or two, but compared to the number of men that's available to do that, that's not really there.
That's not a delusion.
I had this conversation with my family members and they're like, oh, do you as being you know, eliminated, And I had and and I'm like, listen, do I didn't do anything for black for black people?
And they can. They can.
You'll get a sprinkle of black women. That's about it. You'll get a sprinkle of black women. That's about it.
You will get a mark, You'll get a doctor King posted somewhere in the court.
And the funny thing doctor Martin, when he was alive, his approval weight was three percent when he was alive. So that's another thing and I and I have to tell you about my family is like when Martin Luther Key, he said towards the end he questioned if integration was was was was possible? Well, if integration was a good thing. You say, he's afraid and he's seeing his community into a birding building.
That's a good discussion in recent years where I think I think Tim and Mike.
Even talked about it.
It's like where black people actually thrive when seguation.
We did, we did everything, That's why. But that's where a circle little brown. Back to what he's saying, Black people are going to go into black neighborhoods. But do you support your black doctors and you got a black insurance? As do you got a black this Black day? Whatever? And then keep that cycle going. But the problem is the people who experienced a lot of wealth start getting other people to do that kind of stuff, like you can't find your black accounting like George.
That's where the disadvantage comes to the social equity, because then there's the network. Even when it comes to law, those lawyers that are successful usually have a good relationship with the judges that they are presented in front of that work. It's not necessarily that they're a better lawyer. Their relationships are what helps their career thrive, and.
Usually it is a cultural thing.
Then you go to the black people they present in front of you, the present lives in front of you, Like when you when you're presenting somebody like Lebron, James Lebron, like Maverick conqueror, is that guy? But I want you to be really look at that team. You always see this bad white guy. That guy is the guy that was Lebron's everything? Is not the guy they are lying to you?
Is that guy? Like something like that. Years ago what I thought was interesting, even though it came from him where he said master P said something because master P wanted to link up women to do something for the community. And Kodak went on later and on that same platform, said, Yeah, my problem is when I go to these other black folks, they want to charge me this and charge me that they don't need to offer in a quarter of what
this white guy over here is offering me. And they're not even charging me all the things that they're charged. Like that's another thing with the distrust or the opportunistic.
What I'm saying is the system has done that on purpose, Like that's pervasive.
I think on that part, I think that's the way that we have to do is I mean, we could talk about the problems all day long.
There a mountain high, but Yeah. The solution I mean, I think is just for us to do more than our communities.
Like I mean, my doctor is black, now he's also Nigeria, and he's here.
To really like change things for his community.
But even like with doctor Gucci Cris or doctor Ryder or doctor d Jay, I've seen y'all interact together with these things and kind of building your own networks.
And I think that's more so the solution for us because we have to build those networks. Like we got stylist here, he's about to be a black accountant. He's going to specialize in one thing and then he'll change something else. Not gonna say with specializations, because you know, the matrix love to hear that, so they can try to throw something in your right.
But we need to do more to.
Branch out these relationships.
So these kind of conversations like having doctor Donovan making a documentary, you've got to support him. I mean, we we go back to others who are mothers who won't let father see their children. Like that guy, he is building something to kind of shine a light on a problem, and that's really what we need to do more of is focusing on that. But you know, I think this has been really good, but because I want to be you know, cognizantive, like the amount of time that we're taking here.
Yeah, if y'all got a few more questions y'all want.
To ask doctor Donovan, let's go ahead and focus on that and then we can go ahead and close out.
Oh.
I think they have like a Black medical health Care association. Like when they have those kind of associations, why don't they help or is it like every other black association that gets taken over by somebody else.
Working at that and the internet.
But I think they're very conscious of the of the problem. I think one it goes back to what you said previous about Jerry Jones, Jerry Joe the A m A. These associations are physicians, so you they only when they need people who are experts in these type of fields, like someone like myself who's an educational psychologist.
You know, I was.
I've been very beneficient with and supporting the institutions that I've been because I see it from a different perspective, not from the physician perspective.
You need people who are for a different sector in order to fix this problem. I think they're very concerned about these problems, but also too, they're going back to their they're part of the world, and they're the only two or three black physicians there, and they're they balance systems. Doctor DJ, doctor Gucci. I forgot that the other physicians are here.
Doctor R.
Yeah, you guys are baloing a system by yourself, and it can weigh down on you. It's like the rest of them, and sometimes we do not rely on each other. These type of conversations that are being like we're having. It needs to be had at the at the at the national level, and not just talking about it. Okay, we all get excited about it for the week that we're there. It might last like two weeks, and then
we go back to business as usual. Right, it needs to be constantly a conversation had, like how do we bring other isities in here in order to fix the problem, because if we don't, only are we going to be still healthy. But you got to remember a report came out in twenty and fifty three the black community had a deficit, and right now we are treat like what ten trillion, a trillion dollars community. We need to and the more physicians and the more people we have an engineer.
The more we have people going in it, the more our community is going to get stronger. We do not have the we do not have the solidarity that we need in ought to be successful. I think it goes back to the earlier what you said, the Caribbean, the black that asper in America need to come together. That's what that's the conversation need to be having. It's not the fact that you're catching hell because you're you're from your Caribbean? Are you African? Are you from the slave trund?
You catch your hell because you're black, because America has an anti black agenda.
They rather see us to follow up to follow over that question.
Do you think.
One of the biggest problems we have is there's a content with saying the representation we have to where there's no initiative to try to back up and find the future replacements for those like black leaders, doctors and all of that. Like we there's always a contentpt of we already got that. It's like, yeah, but we do.
They don't want to give up. The old regime does not want to give up power. Nobody and listen to other people. The only reason why they that people don't on them is because the power that they have, that's like the just like you know, white supremacy. Nobody wants to lose power, you know. And also to the generational especially with black men, it's a generational thing, like it's rare.
I think. The one thing that I've seen when you're talking about power is when you when I see a lot of older black physicians, they aren't fucking I'm sorry, they aren't liberals. That's another thing they not gotta put in front of you as a black man. They're not gonna put none like you gotta be an old liberal Black men men, especially most men, and this is not like political to most men. Is they get older, they
get more conservative. It is what it is. Yeah, So when these men get older and the powers that be who usually have the power to put these people in front of you, they're liberal. They're not gonna put Ben Carson in front of you. When we were curds, I remember Ben Carson was never talked about in that way. But as he got older, they started to realize this man, not on democrat, but how big Carson was presented to me as a child, and then it was presented to
me as a dunt that stuff matters. He needs to just be presented as a doctor, none of that, Like what was the book Gifted Hands or Gifted hands. But as I got older, they tried to present him like he's some left right wing that case. I'm just like, he's still a doctor, a doctor.
Yeah, they just moved them into.
We need both. We need both perspective.
We can't fight about we can't fight amongst each other that who's left and who is right?
You know what I mean?
If you have no they're only gonna put right and left and fron left in front of you because they don't put right wing people in front of It's just how the media is. Like left wing.
It is what it is.
But like the not gonna put that guy in front of you because they think it'll, you know whatever, it poison your mind. But I'm just like, you need both, you need both.
I agree you need to have And I think that's one of the things that you that I see is that a lot of people do not like being around I love being around like minded individuals, and that's not how you grow. I the reason why I'm in a position that they are because I was forced to be a part of this environment in better called education where it's very conservative, it's very a Republican and I'm not a Democrat or I'm not a Republican.
I'm a black man.
I had to like really understand what they were coming from. When Donald Trump won the first election, when I was at a medical school in Los Angeles, I told all my colleagues that he was going to be the president. They laughed at me, they laughed at me, and when he became president, everybody started to cry. I said, why you cry, because you really see that American, what American really is built upon. You know, probably with us as black people, we wait for white people to help us.
We wait for that them to acknowledge that that that that there's racism and that slavery really impact us still to this day. They're never gonna admit that because once again they do that, then they see that they inde fit for something when they when you when they talk about privilege, they think, oh, I'm not rich. They don't understand that privilege is the fact that their skin color. And when I went back to say, when you when
your skin colder, colorism is a real thing. Because colorism and because it's based upon we as black people are American, the ones who were born here for the American slave trade at all.
We are, we are American, we went through we are not We're we.
Don't have like when you talk about Nigeria, Nigeria still can go back to the homeland see people that look like them.
Hey, when you go back to Jamaki, you still see people that look like you in power. You're in American we.
Rarely see, like you said, we rarely see people in power and look like us or come from out community.
You do.
But it's the ones they want to see. They want you to have in front of you, meaning that you don't have a real representation of you because I think it's representation of skin color, not representation of how you think. Because that's that's where representation is wrong. Just because they're black.
How many black how many how many black deans? How many black deeds in medical schools?
Do you know?
I don't know any exactly? How many better?
Zero?
Zero?
Right in Atlanta?
Is he black? The one that.
African American woman. It's a couple of black beans. It's a couple black death. It goes back to how can you envision something when you don't see it and that's where it goes back. In order to see it, you have to you have to uh in order if you ro models are so critical. Mentorship is so critical. If you don't have anybody that you that is going through that experience and looks like you and come from yourself, it's gonna be.
It's gonna be.
It's gonna be a lot of adversity, a lot of pitfalls that you're gonna deal with, and you don't have that mentorship, and that guy is on how to you know, louver through these obstacles in the pitfall? Especially me, I'm a first generational college student, single parent home. I grew up in Englewood. I grew up during a crack apidemic like most And that's another thing. When you go to these conferences and you see all these life Oh they grow up in the inner city. I could tell the
town who didn't grow up in the inner city. You didn't because you run away from me because I come and have this conversation with you. And so this is what I'm saying. Representation is so important. Colorism is a real thing in America. If we still think it's not over, it's still the paper bag, the brown paper bag going on in education. But this has evolved, it's evolved, it's involved over the years, everything has evolved with the state the same all the reason. Actually, thank you very much.
For having me.
I appreciate the response because, yeah, that's that's true. I think especially like the mentorship. But we definitely do have to evolve it. And that's that's left to us because we're the next generation where the next one is at the at the back the go ahead and read one last question?
What do you think about these obscure people calling themselves doctors such as, uh, what's that brother's name?
Guy?
You know he was on our podcast before. Oh, what I'm talking about? Doctor anke? Is that his name?
The weird dude with all the herbs like these people are practicing like quote.
He is a former gift. You're not gonna call doctor Ankie a weird dude.
He is any the big.
We had master Herbalist Ankie on the podcast.
We had him before he began his trajectory and became the rock star, which we take a small amount of credit for.
But what do you sorry, were you finish the rest of the questions?
Yeah, I don't know what he is. I'm just be honest with you.
But I know he's a he's a master herbalist.
Okay, that's what they called himself. What do you guys think about them? Inside of like traditional medicine, there's a lot of them. You're not the only one.
There's a lot of the.
Things that I can say is Uh, I worked with they do making culture who do a lot of the traditional medicine. One of the thing that with Western medicine, as they call one of the thing they say is the fact that as medicinemen, it's important that they work closely with the physicians. They both work hand in hand. So if an airbelist telling you know their patients that they're the only two and all to be all, then that should from my perspective, that's a problem.
It should be they should work hand in hand.
So that's my perspective on that is that if you have the knowledge, you have the foundation, if you do some type of formal education, it's related to the body to really relate to some with documented research and document documented.
Practice and how to treat it. And then you know, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Is only when you try to exclude UH, the trade physician out of the equation.
H I think they do a little bit above right for the most part. They also I don't know if that's just a legal distinction they make, because I was just like when you said that, I'm just like to made me go back to the original subject. Why what is the number one thing you can say to a young person entering college right now to pursue a life in medicine? Because I think you said you played football and you.
No, see, I'm I got a doctor.
I'm an educational psychologist, so yeah, so I'm a learning specialist, so I help students come physicians. So one of the things I can and that's interesting for a conversation. I let a national initiative to increase black males and medicine is looking at student athletes involved social capital, house, social network.
Athletics run hand in hand. That's another subject to hold the other tagic, but I have let a national initiative at the national level to get more black bills in athletics in medicine, I would say, I would say one is intership. You need to find ventorship. You need to you need to be open to that mentorship. The mentorship necessary because if necessary, have to be a black, veil of black. Anybody who has the knowledge, anybody who has
the social capital that you need. You know, you need to you know, seek out those individual would you need to fight, look out for help. You gotta ask for help, you know it. Start day one. You have to ask for help. You cannot be you cannot you cannot be afraid to ask because sometimes when students ask for help, they feel like, oh, that's a weakness is or somebody is judging me. I don't care if you judge me.
As long as I get to my end goal. Nobody is gonna remember on February sixteenth at seven o'clock that you would ask so and so for help. All they're gonna know is that at the end of the day, you reach the goal that you're trying to attain, and that's to be a physician. That's another thing that I would encourage you them to do. And one of the things that you have to do is at the end of the day, you have to have a mindset that
that that this system is not gonna break me. You cannot and you have to follow You have to follow a straight You got to be disciplined, and those the basons I would say that I've seen that has worked for students that I work with to become a physician that a come from associal acting backgrounds.
Excellent.
Well, thank you.
We really do appreciate your time.
Dodtr Donovan.
Do you want to shout aut any socials or anything that you want to stay included?
I would love if you are interested in uh, you know, visiting. Uh.
But if you're interested by documentary, you can reach out to be at Pathways into Medicine at gmail dot com or you can go to our website Pathways into Medicine uh.
A consulting dot club the Pathways Thank.
You very much.
No no, sorry, sorry, no you I cut you off there, sorry, uh no, but so Pathways in the Medicine at gmail dot com and Pathways in the Medicine.
To Medicine Consultant at Gmail.
Thank you Sarah for correcting me.
Uh.
And I'll make sure to list both of those things and the show.
And once I get my book, I would love to come back and discuss you guys a a couple of bus once I finished this book.
Hey, we would love to have you back on so you know, once you get those creative juices flowing and you finish that book.
Definitely come back and.
Discuss because people are definitely gonna be very interested. I mean, we we need more black doctors.
And especially three books. I'm gonna let you know. I man, okay, are you are you gonna dict?
I would do with both. I would do what it would be a hybrid, it would be both book. It also too audio, So I was I would definitely come back and uh, I'm a little brief Submary of both books. They should be world out here in back, so I will be. I'll reach out to you guys until in April, discuss this, discuss my book that I'm coming out with.
So excellent.
Well we're looking forward to it. Thank you very much, doctor Donovan.
Goodbye, Thank you so much.
Thank you, doctor Chris.
That was an interesting conversation that was awesome, like all them speaking on the same thing.