60: Infertility and How to Support Women Going Through it | Alli Kalina

I'll let her introduce herself as well, but we are gonna be chatting about how to support friends, family members, basically just women in your life who are suffering with the cross of infertility or pregnancy loss, um, in this season. And just, just women that are struggling on their motherhood journey, um, struggling to get there. It's a very heavy cross and something that I've opened up. On my Instagram a little bit.

Um, and I've gotten a lot of requests lately of people asking, I have friends in my life who are going through this. Mm-hmm. Like, what do I say? How do I support them? How do I make them feel loved? Um, and I think with Mother's Day, just recently passing, I had a few people in my life who were just so loving and supportive that I just felt like I wanna share this with people. I want people to know, like how to support women. So I brought Ally on the podcast today. Um, ally, welcome.

Thanks Ma. Do you wanna introduce a little bit about who you are? Maybe how we know each other? Yeah. And what you do in your day-to-day life, just so people can get to know you a little bit. That sounds great. Um, like Mari said, my name's Allie and I traveled a super long ways to be here, just across the street. Um, we're neighbors. Um, we've been neighbors for like a year now. Yeah. But yeah, I, I guess like what do I do to the day to day?

I'm a focus parish missionary, so I actually work at MAs Parish. Mm-hmm. Um, but we met because we moved into the house, across the street from them. Mm-hmm. And we're super excited when we found out that there were other focus missionaries who, well, former focus missionaries. Yeah. Who lived across the street. So one of our good friends introduced. Us to each other. Yes. Mutual friend. We had a mutual friend who, his name is Zach Fiedler. Yes. Shout out, out to Zach. Great.

Like photographer if you Yeah. Wanna follow him. And he had stayed with us like two summers ago. Mm-hmm. And then he was coming to stay with you guys last summer. Yeah. And he is like, oh my gosh, my friends are moving in right in front of you. And I'd heard of your husband before. Mm-hmm. Because he's on the Catholic Instagram world. Yeah. And I was like, this is so fun, like, so crazy. What are the odds? That like two married couples that are like in the Catholic content creation world.

Yeah. Focus missionary world. Right. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And also both on like very, um, just like fertility journeys right now. Totally. Like at the same time. Yeah. It's just really crazy that the Lord brought us together. It is crazy. Yeah. So we moved in across the street. I feel like a few months into that Mari's like, I'm gonna start this Bible study. Yes, please come. And I was like, of course I'll be there.

So Mari and I have kind of gotten to know each other over the past year and it's just been super beautiful. Mm-hmm. Like Mari said, like sharing some of our struggles with fertility. Mm-hmm. Um, and being able to like, walk with that. Yeah. Walk with each other through that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's been an amazing support. Yeah. Um, do you wanna just tell us a little bit about, about your fertility journey? Yeah. Just like, you know, how long have you guys been trying? Mm-hmm.

And what does that look like for you? Yeah, so Tanner and I have been married for almost three years. Woo. Which is so crazy. Three years in July. Uh, and yeah, we've been like very open to life since the day we got married. Um, I know Mari shared similar things, but like always expected that we would just like get pregnant right away 'cause that's what marriage in a Catholic world just seems like it happens that way. Uh, and.

We like struggled a little bit for like the first six months, but a lot of people told us like, it takes time. Mm-hmm. So we weren't super worried about it. Uh, and then in the time of being married, almost three years, uh, we've just had lots of surgeries. Mm-hmm. Lots of doctor's appointments. Mm-hmm. Um, we've unfortunately had two pregnancy losses in the three years that we've been married. Uh, and yeah, just like our eyes have been opened a lot to like what fertility actually looks like.

Yeah. So we're super passionate about talking about it as well. Because I think it needs to be talked about more. Yeah. And you've recently started, my gosh, Instagram, didn't you Ali share about it? Yeah, do it. Um, I don't even know what to say about it. I've like been so MIA on Instagram, I guess. Yeah. Like since lunch. Well, because you, you also took it off for Lens. Yeah. So like, don't expect it to be like a super, like popping a camera right now.

But Yeah, it has very not, it's the potential to be. Yeah. Just tell us like what is the handle? Yeah. Why did you start it? Yeah. Okay. So it's called Blessed to Hope. Um, and it kind of came out of like the fruit of losing our second baby. Mm-hmm. Um, we just felt super convicted about just like what even is hope. Um, and then like expanding kind of the conversation around fertility, especially in the Catholic world, even in the Christian world.

It's just something that's not talked about enough. And so we're hoping to kind of like go to places that people don't really wanna go when it comes to talking about fertility. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah, and that's exactly why I brought you here today. There we go. Um, okay. To start off this conversation, why don't we just chat a little bit about, um. In our experience. Mm-hmm. What has been maybe one of the hardest things that we've had to kind of face or grapple with throughout this journey?

Yeah. I think there's obviously a lot of difficulties with this journey. Mm-hmm. And a lot of different ways that it can be difficult on different women. Yeah. Um, but for you and for me personally, maybe what are, what have been like one of the hardest things that you've had to kind of just grapple with throughout this journey? I feel like. For us, just like being kind of like let down. Yeah. Like constantly. Mm-hmm. You know?

And like having this expectation that it's gonna like happen right away is like really defeating when it didn't happen right away. Mm-hmm. So I think like overall just struggling with fertility in general. Just like this constant waiting for something. Mm-hmm. And like kind of feeling like you have to be like, yeah, just like only focused on the next nine months. Yeah, it's like a really hard thing to do when you're married and especially if you're struggling with fertility. Mm-hmm.

So I think waiting, um, and then with like pregnancy loss, just like really wrestling with the Lord in that. Oh yeah. You know, I feel like there's like few things in this life that will like, shake you to the core, like. Losing a child, right? Yeah. Whether it's like the child's like been with you like on this side of heaven mm-hmm. For a while. Or like, yeah, you've been pregnant for a little bit, you lose a child. Like yeah. It just really shakes your faith.

So I think both of those things waiting, being in a season of waiting for like an like infinite amount of time, like you don't know when the deadline's gonna be. Mm-hmm. Um, and then just struggling with like your relationship with the Lord amidst. Loss. Yeah. Yeah. I think both of those are really tough. Yeah. And I definitely relate to that second one you're talking about. Um, we have been struggling for a little over three years.

Yeah. And I think the hardest part for me is just that question of like, will this ever happen? Yeah. And it's just the unknown. Totally. And I think that at first in the journey it was. A little bit easier to be like, kinda what you're saying, like, oh, it's only been six months. Like some people, you know, it takes them a little bit longer. And we saw for the first doctor, and the first doctor was a little dismissive and like, oh, you're fine. Mm-hmm. Just come back in six months.

Like, I'm sure you'll be pregnant. And then you have a year go by and you're like, okay. Like, does it really take that much longer? But then, you know, you find maybe another answer here and, and the, the months just start to add up. And I think the, the more they add up, the more you just are left to wonder, like, is this. Is this even in the cards for me? Mm. Like, does the Lord even actually have this planned in his, um, yeah. Just grand planned plan of life.

Um, and just wrestling with like, I know that these desires are good and that the Lord like has placed these desires on my heart. Mm-hmm. And so it's like part of me, like needs to trust in that and like the Lord places a desire of motherhood on my heart and he. Gave me the vocation that like supposedly leads to motherhood.

Um, but really having to trust in his plan and his timing, and trusting that if he does want me to be a mother, you know, beyond a spiritual mother to people in my life, when will that be? And yeah, just like that trust, that faith, that hope and that waiting period, like trying to be as faithful as possible in that waiting period until that time comes around. Yeah. Um, and then.

Yes. What you said too about like how much it like shakes your faith and I think stretches your relationship with the Lord. Yeah. Um, the medical things, the procedures, all that is tough and it's hard. Mm-hmm. But for someone who. I love the Lord so much. And I think that there have been times where I have just been shocked at just like how my faith has been shaken. Yeah. And that's hard for me.

It's hard for me to be okay with myself, like sitting in a chair and like questioning God and fighting with God and being like, how did I get here? Yeah. Like, don't I have enough faith? Don't I trust? Like what happened? You know what I mean? Totally. But um. I think I've talked about this before.

Um, I know I talked about it in my, I think I talked about it in my seek talk or something, but one of my favorite quotes, I think I've told you this, is from St. Fina's diary where Jesus tells her that suffering is a great gift because in suffering, love is crystallized. Ooh, love that. Like love is purified and it's strengthened. Yeah, and I think of like a diamond, like crystallized, like a diamond where it's like diamonds are so strong, but they like go through this process of like growing.

Yeah. And like, you know what I mean? Uhhuh. And so in a way it's like, wow, like my faith has gone through just the turmoil, you know, dragged through the mud, cleaned off, hung up to dry, and then. Yeah. Like highs and lows, but I, I trust in the depths of my heart, like a diamond is coming outta this, you know what I mean? Yeah. In my faith. Yeah. No, I can definitely relate to that.

I feel like that's like been one beautiful thing that's come out of all this is like my hope has become so much more strong. Mm-hmm. And like, yeah, Tanner and I have had so many conversations about this, but just like. Yeah. What was my hope actually in Yeah. And like it's made me like realize like my hope has to be in eternity with God. Yeah. Like that's what it has to be rooted in. 'cause everything else is so fleeting. Mm-hmm. But it's Right.

I feel like people who carry this cross, like, yeah, it really does. Like strengthen your relationship with the Lord. Mm-hmm. And shake things up. Yeah. That's really beautiful. I think through this whole journey though, I have had friends, um, and family who have expressed like obviously their, um, just like that their heart goes out mm-hmm. To me and that they, they want to learn how to love me through this process. Yeah. And I do think it is. I don't know.

It's just a particularly interesting situation. Yeah. Especially in the season of life that we're in, where we're married and everybody around us is having kids. Yeah. Um, and so we're constantly exposed to families, pregnancy announcements, baby showers. Mm-hmm. Baptisms. All the things. All the things, yeah.

Um, and I think, yeah, those friends and families, friends and family that like really know you, really love you, like they're aware of, of that, and they wanna learn how to just like, love you and support you so. I think in general, what is a truly like supportive friendship look like through this process? Yeah. I feel like sometimes like, it can be easy, like as a friend, supporting someone walking through this to feel like you have to like do all the right things. Mm-hmm.

Or like, you know, you don't wanna say the wrong thing. Mm-hmm. And like, it can almost like stifle your friendship in a sense. Yeah. And so, like, not being like overly aware of it, I think is a good thing. But also being like, you know, aware enough of the situation where you can like check in and ask questions about it. Yeah. You know, I think like one thing that I'm sure you've experienced this too, is just like feeling very lonely mm-hmm. In all of this. Mm-hmm.

Like, like Mar said, like you're surrounded by people who are having babies. There's baby showers, there's pregnancy announcements, there's everything. So like, if you're a friend walking with someone who's struggling with this, just like checking in with them to be like, how are you really doing? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, like even, like what's an update for you if you wanna share one.

Yeah. Um. I feel like that's been a huge gift for you guys and for us to like have you guys across the street is like, yeah. Like what's going on with you guys? Like what's an update? You know? Yeah. And being able to like share that really freely. Um, but yeah, if you have a friend just like checking in on them mm-hmm. And seeing how they're doing. Yeah. And I liked what you said too about, I can't remember quite how you worded it, but like doing like being aware mm-hmm.

Of the sensitivity of the subject and checking in, but almost not overdoing it. Yeah. And I think obviously it always comes from a very good. Intention in a very good place. Yeah. But I do feel like there have been times in relationships where you almost feel like there is a shift or there is a cycling when somebody's so overly worried about what they're gonna say or what they're gonna do. Yeah. Um, especially if they have children. Mm-hmm.

I think that it's been difficult sometimes because people feel like, well, maybe I can't, like. Share pictures of my kids. Yeah. Or like tell you about how they're doing. 'cause I don't wanna make you feel bad. Mm-hmm. Um, which again, I know is coming from a great place. Yeah. But also like as a friend, I genuinely am like, I genuinely wanna know about your life. Yes. And like, your life is motherhood right now. Yeah. You know, so like, I do wanna hear about it.

So I think there is like, need to check in, but also like, don't make that every. Conversation. Yeah. Every conversation or every catch up you have with a friend, I think it's important to say that, where it's like check in, but not every time you call or every time you hang out, because then it just makes it all about that. That totally.

And while it's like good to have a friend that you feel like you can confide in, even if you can confide in someone, it's like you don't wanna talk about it all the time. Right. You know? Yeah. And like, just like another note too is that like, I think you kind of were getting there with this is like. We don't wanna feel left out. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like just because like we both carry like this cross. Mm-hmm. And it's really hard.

Doesn't mean like Yeah. We don't wanna be a part of your life still if you have children. Like we obviously both really love children, right? Yes. We wouldn't be talking about this if you didn't. Yes. Like invite me to the park if you are going the park with your mom friends. Yes. It's totally, I'd be happy. Show, show us the pictures of your baby's first birthday party. You know what I mean? Yes. Like we wanna be a part of that. So like, not feeling left out. Mm-hmm.

And then something that I've been really like kind of wrestling with over the last couple of years is. There's like a balance between like, I don't wanna feel pitied. You know? Mm-hmm. And so, like, if you're my friend, like your presence, like matters more than your pity to me. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so like, yeah. What Mari's saying is like checking in, but like, yeah, we like know this is a cross, but like everyone also suffers. Yes. So like we all have suffering.

Um, and we don't need to be like pitied for our suffering. Yeah. You know? For sure. I think that's something that I've been like wrestling with a lot. Yeah. Yeah. What are some things that you feel like. Are helpful to say to a friend. And what are some things that you feel like maybe have been said to you in the past that maybe like the person was trying to be helpful, but it just didn't land quite right.

Yeah. Some things that maybe weren't as helpful that you're like, maybe don't say that to somebody. Oh, it's so hard. 'cause I feel like most people come from such a good place. I know. Um, but I do think at the same time, um, when we like have live in a Catholic culture right now where we're kind of like combating. A lot of like what our worldly culture says about like pregnancy and like being a mom and all these things that we kind of sway to the way other end. Mm-hmm.

Um, and so like, it's almost like when someone is going through this, like you would never assume that. Yeah. Um, so yeah, there's a lot of things, but I think something that I have a really good friend, she was actually a student when I was a focus missionary, who's become like one of my great friends. Um, she is just like such a good listener. Um, and like after our second loss, she came over and she basically just sat down and I told her about it and she goes.

I want like you to share as much as you want or as little as you want. Mm. And like whenever you're ready to stop, like you can stop. Yeah. And like that was so freeing to me. So freeing to be like, she's not gonna like dig to ask more questions if I don't wanna like share more. Yeah. But she's like willing to hear everything. Yeah. I want to share like she's willing to hear it all out.

Like even if it's like an hour of you, like decompressing totally everything you're feeling like she wants to be there for that. Right. And even if I were to share a little bit, she'd be like, that's. What you needed to share. Yeah. You know, so I think like asking questions that like are maybe like a little more open-ended. Mm-hmm. And not asking questions that are like very specific to your journey.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because most likely if someone's your good is your good friend, they will share that. If they want to share that, you know? Yeah. They're gonna, yeah. Like most likely it'll open up and be like, Hey, here's what we're doing next. Exactly. Like prayers, like asking for prayers for that. Totally. Like, I think like the default should be to be like, be more open-ended than to be like niche questions.

Yeah. Yeah. I think some things that, um, have been said that, that haven't been as helpful that I can think of. Um. When you compare, and this could go for anybody's suffering, right? I guess like when you compare your suffering to something else that like might be worse. Mm. And so when people are like, you know, I know this is really hard, like we should be grateful, at least you don't have cancer. Right. Or like, oh, like Right. There's so many things to be grateful for.

Yeah. Like at least you X, Y, Z. Right? Yeah. And I think that's been hard for me to receive in the past. 'cause I'm like. I totally like am so grateful, you know, for my health in general, for all the blessings, but it almost feels like it's diminishing the cross in that moment of just like, you don't have to be as sad as you think you do, because at least you don't have something else. Right. Have you ever had people say that to you?

Yeah. I feel like anything that's like super dismissive of what you're going through, dismissive is a good word, is so hurtful, you know? Mm-hmm. And especially like if you're willing to like open up to somebody about like. Suffering that you're experiencing. Mm-hmm. And then someone dismisses it. It's like, oh, come on. Yeah. You just kind of instantly regret saying anything. Yeah, totally. You're like, I should have just never said anything. Yeah, yeah.

Um, but yeah, I think like when you're walking like the cross of like infertility, like there's so many things that you could say that would probably be hurtful to someone like Uhhuh. You know, like maybe you're just not ready yet. I've heard that one a lot. Oh, yes. And that one just like cuts you to the core. You know, you're like, what does that mean? It's like God's waiting for like you to learn something new. It's not God's time, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Things like that.

And like you said, that you could really apply this to like probably a lot of different suffering. Yeah. Um. But yeah, those are big ones. Or you could always adopt, like Yes, that's a big one too. That I think is very common, again, comes from such a good place. Mm-hmm. Um, I think it's, it's hard for people going through infertility to hear that sometimes because there's so, it's so much deeper. Adoption is so much deeper than I think what a lot of people see on the surface. Totally.

And. It's a process and it's not an easy bandaid, like coverup, like, first of all, not every family's going to be called to adopt. Right. And even if you do, it doesn't replace that deep longing and ache for a biological child. So it doesn't, it doesn't just like replace that and make everything better. Yeah. Um, which I think is not, is not commonly understood. Yeah. Also, I feel like in our culture, like just. This like desire to like have things immediately. Mm-hmm.

And like fix problems immediately. Mm-hmm. Is just like not a good one. Like sometimes it's okay that we like That's true. Yeah, just like, like you said, adoption's, like a discernment and it's not like a solution to your ache for like biological children. Yeah, yeah. You know, while it's a good discernment and I think we should all discern that. Yeah. Um. Yeah. It's not just like a quick fix. Mm-hmm. To your longings. Mm-hmm.

I think on the other hand, some things that people have said that have been helpful and encouraging to me, I think people definitely struggle with what to say. Oh, for sure. And I think people feel at a loss for words a lot of the time. Yeah. Which I think is totally like fine. Like Yeah. In all reality. Nothing anybody says is going to like, make the pain go away. Right, right. Or fix the problem. Yeah. But it can be comforting to just to say something with love, something with just like Yeah.

Just a good intention. For example, like for me, even though it's a very much a cliche, I love when people say like, I know God has such a good plan for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, just to be reassured of that. 'cause that's a truth. Yeah. That like. That is just fundamental truth. Right. But it can be hard, like it can be easily, you can be easily shaken in that. Yeah. In this journey you can easily be like, what is God's plan? Did he, you know, abandon me?

Yeah. Like, did he just forget that I'm out here like praying for motherhood? Yeah. But when somebody comes and just reminds me like, yeah, I know God has an amazing plan for you and your family, whatever that looks like, that's always comforting for me. Yeah. Because I think that's like the truth that gets attacked a lot when you're struggling with this. Mm-hmm. You're like. Like all these things go through your head like, God isn't good. Like he doesn't have a good plan for me.

Like he's not listening to me, all these things. Mm-hmm. So I think like having someone like gently reassure you. Mm-hmm. Like even like when you're not like asking for it. Right. Like when you're not like expressing those concerns, but like someone coming up to me like God has a really good plan for you more. Yeah. Like it, you're right. It is really reassuring. I think also like it just depends on like the cross you're carrying with this.

'cause like when it comes to pregnancy loss, like there's a whole other plethora of things that people could say. Yeah. That could be really hurtful too. Yeah. Um, do you want me to share something like what Yeah. Share, but people need to know. Yeah. I mean, I, this is like one that I will just always share because I think it's a really important one.

Yeah. And I, I don't ever hear anyone else say this, but one of the, like, most piercing questions I've gotten from very well inte intentioned people is how far along were you? Hmm. Like, I immediately, like, it's like I shared like. I had a miscarriage and they're like, oh, how far along were you? And it's almost like, like as if that would be like important knowledge to know. Yeah, that's so true. And like it would change the way that they like approach the situation somehow. Right.

Some people would change the weight of, of how, how hard it was, was for you. Yeah. And like I said, very well-intentioned question, I think because totally. Like, you know, when someone's pregnant, that's a question you ask a lot. Um, but like, man, it cuts deep. 'cause it makes you feel like, oh man, am I like making this a bigger deal than it really is. But like we know like as Catholics that like any life is like. Of great importance, right? It's a life, it's your child.

Yeah. So I think like, avoid that question. Yeah. If someone wants to share that with you, they absolutely will. Um, so that's a hard one. I think also similar to like just infertility in general, but like I. Even just saying like, oh, maybe it's like in God's timing or plan. Mm. And it's like, oh, to say that to someone who just like lost a baby, like that's not actually God's plan, um, for a baby to die. Right. And, and that's so hard to grapple with too.

It, of just like, now you've opened up a can of worms of like, now I have to wonder, why would that have been God's plan? Right. You know's. Exactly. And like, yeah. Um, that gets into a whole thing about suffering and like why bad things happen, things like that, which we all struggle with. Yeah, exactly. But I think that's like also a good, a good thing to maybe kind of like avoid or just tread gently with. What about, um, well at least you can get pregnant.

At least you know you can get pregnant. Yes. Yes. We've actually had people say that to us, and that's so hard. Right. I, I bet that's hard. Um, I even like had a family member, like we were walking through our house and I just like, probably shouldn't have said this, but in the moment I was like, oh, like this would've been our baby's room. Aw. You know? And that person was like, well, the next one. And I'm like, no, but like, we wanted this one. You know? Yeah. So, yeah, I think.

It's easy to, like, I don't wanna get too in the weeds 'cause I don't want people to feel like they can't say anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, but these are like some big ones that I feel like are just good to be aware of. Yeah. Just to be aware of. Um, but yeah, I think like. Yeah, you ought to like balance it with, you know, I think also receiving things from people like with a grain of salt. Absolutely. Yeah. We can get into that later, I'm sure.

But yeah, I think, um, one other thing too that has been very healing for me to hear, so on the flip side, something that's been helpful to hear is, I've had a few people say this, um, the first time I ever. Heard it was actually the doctor that I'm working with now. Like the first time I like kind of like told her everything. The day that I met her.

Yeah. And everything we had gone through and she put her hand on my shoulder, which first of all I feel like is just not very common for doctors to do. Yeah. Right. And it was just so reassuring. She put her hand on my shoulder and she looked at me and she goes, ma, you are ready being such a good mother to your children, that's so good. Like, I know it makes me tear up every time. Yeah. Because she was like, everything you're doing right now. Mm-hmm. All of this like.

Research and lifestyle changes. Yeah. And medical work. Right. And everything you're doing to like heal your body and find the root cause and like prepare yourself to be the best, like to like, uh, vessel. Yeah. Vessel for this life. Like all of that and all your suffering like that is being a good mother. Like that is your motherly heart coming out, wanting to care for your children even now, before they come into the world.

That was just, I mean, immediately when she said that to me, I'm just like bawling. 'cause like I just. Felt so seen in that moment mm-hmm. To have somebody acknowledge like you do have a maternal heart, you know? Yeah. Because I think right now, in the midst of so many people having children and becoming moms, right, it can be hard to like feed, to be in a room of mothers and be like, wow, like they're all mothers and like, and I'm not.

You know, you're like one of the most maternal people I know. You really are. You do have a maternal heart. Aw, thank you. It's very apparent. Thank you. But you're so right. It's easy to feel like that. Just to be, yeah. Be like, just to be reassured in that for somebody who desires motherhood so much. Yes. Or for someone who, like you are a mother, you have children in heaven, and to be reassured of just like of that motherly heart that you do have. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I feel like is.

It's very comforting. Yeah. And just to have your friends, like see the sacrifices you're making now. Yeah. You know what I mean? I feel like it's very easy to like see the sacrifices of a mother who has like three toddlers, right? Mm-hmm. But like to see like your doctor, just acknowledging the sacrifices you're making Yes. For your future family. Yeah. Is so affirming. It's so affirming. Totally. So that's so beautiful.

Okay. Shifting gears a little bit, um, let's talk about announcing a pregnancy. Mm-hmm. Um, I feel like this news can be hard to receive Yeah. When you're going through infertility or have experienced loss. Um, but it's inevitable, right? There's like life growing all around us. Yeah. And there's part of us that genuinely like is happy for those people and wants to celebrate, but then also part of us that has like needs space to mourn as well. Mm-hmm.

So what do you feel like in your experience has been. A good way for a friend to share the news of a pregnancy. Yeah. I feel like this is such a hard one because people receive things so differently. Yeah. Um, it might be situational too. Yeah. And I think so. I think for me, like I've always really appreciated when a friend, like, doesn't like shy away from telling me. Yeah. Um, because I never wanna feel like, you know, someone can't tell me because of like the suffering we're going through.

That's like almost more painful than someone just telling me and me having to like, you know, grapple with my own sorrow in that. Um, because I feel like it makes, it just makes you, it just accentuates how you are different Yes. Than everybody else. Yeah. When people treat you so much differently. Right. In some situations it can be hard to be like, oh, this is awkward 'cause like, you had to really feel bad for me. Right. And think about how am I gonna tell this person?

Yes. Yeah. And like, the reality of like living a Catholic life is that. Like you should be able and like we're all like broken, so it's not always easy, but you should be able to hold like the joys and sorrows like in tandem. Yeah. Like that's what the Lord did. Yeah. That's what Mary did. Um, and like I think that's something that I like, have really had to grow in is being like, I can be really happy for someone. Mm-hmm. And simultaneously really sad for like my situation. Right.

Um, and those two things don't like, need to take precedent over each other. Like they can both exist together. Yeah. Yeah. Um, has there been a specific way that you feel like has been, that has like landed well for you? Yeah. Um, I had one really, like, really close friend and she just has such like a tender heart. Yeah. Um, and she like texted me and told me that they were pregnant with their like fourth child. Mm-hmm.

Um. And I remember being like a little bit bummed that she texted me about it. Mm-hmm. Um, but like from her perspective, she was like, I didn't wanna just like blindside you on the phone Yeah. By telling me that. Yeah. And I like really appreciated that. Yeah. Um, but so I feel like texting someone and just being like, Hey, like, I wanna let you know, I don't want you to feel left out. Mm-hmm. Like, this is like, you know mm-hmm. We're pregnant again.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, giving you space to like, kind of like process that, um. I personally feel like, just like tell me over the phone. I like would rather just like revel in the joy of you being pregnant than you. Like assume that I'm gonna be sad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where too, like knowing your friend Yeah. Well, is gonna, is gonna come into play here because if, you know, maybe where they're at in this phase of their journey is a really dark time.

Yes. Yes. They might receive it differently. Yep. Than if they're doing really well and if they're in a place of a lot of hope and joy. Yeah. And, um, just like grace in their waiting. Yeah. So I think it's hard 'cause it's like we can't give you a cookie cutter right way. That's like gonna work every time. And I just think back to my experience of friends and family sharing the news with me and it's landed differently at different times. Yeah. It's so true.

Yeah. You know, like there's been times where people share with me one-on-one and it feels. Exciting to know in person when I saw them, like at a coffee date. Right. Or there's been times where we've been shared with one-on-one instead of the group, and it's kind of felt like, oh, did they not feel like they could share with us in front of the group? Yeah. Because of what we're going, you know, so. Right. I do think it, it kind of depends. I think overall, if you.

If you feel really like nervous about sharing with a friend, I think writing a text or writing a letter is really nice. And I had a friend recently who wrote me a letter. Yeah, I love that. Um, and she, she brought it to me and like left, dropped it off at my door with some flowers. Yeah. And just was like. Thanking me for our friendship and saying that she was praying for me on our journey and that she wanted to share the news that they were expecting there first.

Yeah. Um, and that she knew that it could be hard to hear this news and that she wanted me to give me the space to process and feel whatever emotions that I felt like genuinely in that moment. Yeah. And that she love, you know, to get coffee to talk about it some, sometimes soon. Like yeah, just like catch up. That's beautiful. And that made me feel really loved because I'm like, wow. Like you thought intentionally enough to, to think of how I would receive it. Right.

Um, but it was a little bit more personal than a text. Yeah. It was like, I'm gonna write you a letter, bring you some flowers, tell you I'm praying for you. Yeah. Enter the news. So I feel like when in doubt, like that is a super. Intentional, thoughtful, like, safe way to do it. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I think like knowing the friend and your relationship too is gonna be key here. Definitely.

And I think like when, when you asked that question Mari, like it made me also think about just like how we like as people who are struggling with this cross. Can also like receive people better? Yes, because I just heard like, you know, whenever you like open up about this, I feel like you hear like everyone's stories about it. So like I had a friend who, she's pregnant and she was sharing with one of her good friends.

Um, that they were pregnant again, and they, her friend had experienced like multiple losses in that year. Mm. And her friend received it really poorly. Yeah. And she like shared it in person. Yeah. And she was like, I just didn't feel like that was the right thing to do. I shouldn't have done that. You know, all these things. And as hard as it is, like I feel like people in our, she was like, all also need to like, actually learn how to receive people's good news.

Yeah. Like amidst our suffering. Absolutely. Um. Because like, yeah, like I said, it, like our suffering shouldn't diminish the joy of someone else. Like mm-hmm. I mean, if like one of us was pregnant, like how stoked would be, we would be so joyful for each other. Exactly. So like, just realizing that like those two things can exist simultaneously. So like if someone does share with you that they're pregnant or whatever mm-hmm.

Um, that you can like, receive them with joy and not be afraid to like, bring your suffering to the Lord after that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's really important. Yeah. And I, I think that is such a good point too, like it's. It's very like paradoxical and maybe not everybody feels this way, but mm-hmm. It seems like you do and I do as well. Yeah. Where like there is a genuine like excitement that we hold for our friends and family who are becoming mothers. Oh my goodness.

Yeah. And like we are a, like, it's hard, but like we're able to hold both and it's not like I'm forcing myself to be happy for this person. Like I genuinely am. Yeah. And it's so exciting to see my best friends and my sister-in-laws and my friends like become mothers. Absolutely. Um. And so I think also like there's been times where people expect it to be so hard, right? That they, they almost make it shy away from it.

Yeah. Shy away from it a little bit where it's like, no, like I want to share that joy with you as well. Yeah. Oh, totally. But like there may be times where I need to take, you know, my space as well to like process, but you can hold both. Absolutely. I totally agree. Okay, next question I have here. What is something that a friend did for you that made you feel deeply seen in your suffering? Hmm. That's a really hard question.

I feel like I'm gonna answer this like in like, specifically with pregnancy loss. Yeah. Um, totally go for it. So I think for me, something that's made me feel deeply seen, like amid my suffering is I have one friend who she's like, asked us the name, like if we named our babies that we lost. Mm-hmm. And we have named them. And so she'll like often like just reach out to us and be like, Hey, like I'm just thinking of you guys and like, you know, ask your baby to interview for us today.

Aw. Which is super beautiful. She also like, knows the days that they were supposed to be born. Um, and so she'll like even like, say something on that day, which I feel like makes us feel very seen. Um, 'cause yeah, that can be just like something that's like very isolating when you that like day comes and like no one knows about it. Yeah, totally. Um, so I think those two things have made me feel like really loved, really seen. That is so beautiful. Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. I think for me, um, is the past two years there's been different friends that have just sent me a little something on Mother's Day. I love that. Yeah. And it's been very unexpected both times. Yeah. And I think Mother's Day, I mean, there's been mixed emotions on it. Mm-hmm. And we can kind of like tie this into this part of the conversation as well. Yeah. If you have any thoughts on it. Um, whereas like. It's like the days leading up, I'm like almost like kind of dreading it to come.

'cause I'm like, oh man, I just like hope this day's not gonna be like so sad and just like, just a bummer all day. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean like I genuinely wanna celebrate my mom too, right? Yeah. But then it's also like I hold sadness for myself as well. Yeah, totally. Um. And it's just like little things that have unexpectedly come to like, brighten that day. Yeah. That has made it feel just like a little bit lighter.

And so like a couple years ago, a friend sent me a card with a beautiful prayer card with the mag, um, yeah, the mag uh, the memorare on it memo the Memorare and, oh, wait, no. Was it meant the magnifica? Maybe it was a magnifica feel like the magnification makes more sense, but yeah. Yes. I think it was, you're right, it was a magnification. Um, and she just like sent me like, again, like a handwritten letter. Really beautiful with a little prayer card. I love that. To kinda lift my spirits.

Yeah. And then this past year, um, these, this little bouquet here on the table, our neighbor Kim, I just like opened the door to like, go, we went to the zoo on Mother's Day. Yeah. And I opened the door and there was a card with this beautiful little bouquet. That is so sweet. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And I was just like, what? Like, it just, like, it literally put a smile on my face. Yeah. And made me feel so seen. And. It's not to take away the joy or importance of Mother's Day for other people.

Right. You know? Mm-hmm. Like, I'm not on the train where like, like, you know, you get like so many emails in your inbox this year of just like, if this day's hard for you, we understand. Have you gotten those like emails? No. Oh. Like, like marketing emails. You haven't really? Oh yeah. Brands will like send out an email now, like a couple days in advance of like, if you don't wanna see Mother's Day emails or Mother's Day content. Like off Mother's Day a little bit.

Yeah. Or just basically just like the culture today I feel like is so like you need to, you need to have so many disclaimers. Yeah. Of like, we're celebrating mother's, but also like if you a trigger warning. Yes. Like it's like a trigger warning. Like, I'm not on that train where it's like, you can't like be joyful on this day or like celebrate moms, but it just, it makes you feel really seen when somebody acknowledges like, Hey, this might be kind of a hard day for you because Totally.

Yeah. You've been trying to be a mom for like three years. You have this desire to be a mom and it's just a reminder on this day that like you're not yet. Yeah. Um, for somebody who hasn't, you know, absolutely been pregnant before. Yeah. So that was just like a sweet little sweet little surprise on my doorstep that I think was so sweet. Oh my gosh. I feel that's. Literally, this was the sweetest thing on Mother's Day this year at 10:00 PM Okay.

We're in bed about to go to bed, and then Bodhi, our dog, barks like protectively from downstairs and I'm like, huh? Someone must be like at the door something. Yeah. Like he only does that when there's like a car pulling up or at the door. So Trey goes down there to check it out. And there's an Instacart lady, and he text me before opening the door. He goes, did you order food? And I was like, no. And he's like, at 10 o'clock? Yeah, at 10 o'clock.

And he's like, uh, okay, I'm gonna check it out. He opens the door and there's a lady holding a bouquet of flowers and he was like, hi. And she goes from Julie and Sam, and he was like, what? And my siblings names Aw are who? And Sam. Oh, that's so sweet. And she goes, that's all I know. She hands him the bouquet and he comes upstairs and I text my siblings and they literally sent me a bouquet of flowers that night I would cry with. I did cry with a little texting.

Um, as the eldest daughter, like you basically, you basically were our second mom and also raised us like, wanted to brighten your day to day. And I was like, oh my gosh, what? Inside is the sweetest thing in the world. It literally made me cry because my sister's 21 and my brother's 16. Yeah. And this little gesture just showed like they're getting older and maturing and I'm like, you can't. You can't be doing that right now. Yeah. But thank you. Yeah. So little things like that.

I love that so much. Yeah. I feel like Mother's Day has brought a lot of mixed emotions for me. Yeah. Um, how has that been for you? Yeah. I think like, well, our first year of marriage, I. Like we had already experienced one loss. Mm. And then this year, like experiencing two losses now. Mm-hmm. And like, you know, like you said, like I am a mother. It feels very different than like a mom who has like three children or five children in flesh. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Absolutely.

Um, and so like, I think my biggest thing on Mother's Day that I just like dread is when they make all the moms stand up at mass. Yep. And wanna pray for them. Yep. I literally had it in my head. I was like, I need to tell Tanner ahead of time that I'm not standing up and don't try to make me stand up. Mm-hmm. Because like, you know, it comes from a good place for him. He's like, you're a mom. Like, I want you to be able to like, be like, you know, seen.

And I'm like, I don't wanna be seen right now. Yeah. Um. And like, that might be different for different people, but for me sure. I'm like, yeah. Like it just like begs a lot of questions from people and like being a parish missionary in a new place, like where everybody knows you don't need every single person asking me if I'm pregnant after mass, you know? Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, or just like, even like being like, oh, like are you a mom?

Like, you know, like all the questions that would come with that. So Totally for me, like that's something that's really hard for me. Um, but also similar to you, I can't believe how many people like unexpectedly reached out to me on Sunday. Mm-hmm. Like, I was just like so blown away. Like, just You don't expect that? No. Yeah. Old students, like friends from where I used to live before this, um, and like, it's just like.

Even just that little gesture of just being like, Hey, I see you today and like you probably like, you're not gonna get that from a lot of other people, but like, I see you. Yeah. Like some friends even were like, I don't really feel like it's right to be like Happy Mother's Day to you. Mm-hmm. But like, know that I'm praying for you. Yeah. I'm like really moved by that. Yeah. You know, I even, this is so crazy, but there's one person I parish I've literally met one time.

She emailed me after Mass and was like, I saw you at Mass and I want, you know, 'cause like she's heard my story a little bit. Oh. She's like, I want you to know that I'm praying for you today, and I know it's probably a hard day for you. Wow. The fact that you went outta your to email me to email. I know. Wow. And she like, probably has no idea how like much that meant to me. Yeah. That's so sweet. That's huge.

Um, I also like on Mother's Day, like if you have friends, like if we have friends that are also struggling through this, like. Mari texted me in the morning. Mm-hmm. And it's so funny 'cause like I've been thinking about her and Trey all morning too. Yeah. Um, but I always text too, like my campus minister who's been like struggling with infertility for like their entire marriage and they've been married for a very long time.

I always reach out to her on Mother's Day and I'm like, Hey, like you are a mom to me. Mm. And like I know how much like. You spiritually mother, like everyone in your life. Yeah. And like there stays for you too. Yeah. And so like, just like trying to recognize other people in their like longing for motherhood Yeah. Is so beautiful. Yeah. So it's a hard day, but it's also a good day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah.

Those little acknowledgements like that, like you reaching out to her and being like, you're a mom to me Yeah. Is different than, you know, someone saying to you like. Happy Mother's Day and you kind of having to kind of wrestle with like, am I a mom? Am I not? Right? Yeah. I think, yeah. For me, I had a little moment like that. Yeah. We, we went to the zoo for Mother's Day. I love that. With our family that Yeah. And I honestly, I honestly had a great Mother's Day this year.

Yeah. I think, like I love going to the zoo, right. It makes me happy. So I'm actually so glad we did that instead of me sitting at home just like. Moping. Sad. Yeah. By myself, right. Um, so I had a great time and my little niece, she too, and my sister-in-law was trying to teach her. She's like, you know, Mari's your godmother. And she's like, you can say like, happy mother's Aid, your godmother, you know? That's so sweet. She's your spiritual mom.

And that's just something I didn't think about. Yeah. You know, I was like, oh, that's. Sweet. Right. And she like brought me a little souvenir 'cause she was traveling abroad and she like brought me a little soup, well not abroad. That sounded like she was in Europe. She was in Canada, she was in Europe, she was in traveling Europe. It's just not, not that far, but it's 2-year-old. She was in Canada. Um, and she brought me a little thing and she was like, it's just like a Godmother gift.

And I was like, that's just so intentional. Like that's just so sweet. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely ways you can like make people feel seen on Mother's Day. Mm-hmm. Especially when they're like longing for it. Mm-hmm. You know?

Yeah. And just like trying to offer consolation and love over trying to figure out like what would be the best thing to make them feel better, like to solve their problem or to specifically speak into what they shared. Like something, sometimes even just having, sometimes even just sharing like a generic like. Words of affirmation or words of love, or words of encouragement, like, yeah. Even if it is generic and you feel like, oh, that was so stupid, I shouldn't have said anything at all.

Like that goes more, I think, sometimes than just not saying anything at all. Oh, for sure. And then just like being present with the person in their struggle and not always having to figure out like, how am I going to respond to what they share with me? Yeah. And what do I say every time they say something can go a long way. Mm-hmm. So what do you feel like it looks like to just be present to a friend on this journey?

I. Yeah, I think, like I said this at the beginning, like one of the hardest things is feeling like alone and feeling isolated. And so when like your close friends or family like are like not saying something out of fear of like hurting your feelings or not saying the right thing that like makes you feel more isolated, it makes you feel more lonely.

So I think like, just like when MA's saying, like, just saying something, um, like I've had a couple of friends and family members who've just been like. I don't feel like there's anything I can say right now. Yeah. That would make this better because it's so sad. Yeah. You know, and even them just saying that like, affirms how I feel. Yes. You know, so even just being like, there's nothing I could say to make this better for you. Mm-hmm. And I'm really sorry about that. Mm-hmm.

Like that like is affirming. Mm-hmm. You know, you're like, okay, totally. I feel seen in this like, struggle that I'm feeling. Um, but also just like not being afraid. Of saying the wrong thing. 'cause like to someone you love, right? Like most people will be able to be like, Hey, that like actually kinda hurt my feelings when you said that. Mm-hmm. You know, had many a conversation with my little sister being like, Hey, actually, like when you say that, this is how it makes me feel. Mm-hmm.

And then she was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Like, I didn't even think that would make you feel that way. And then I think that just. Like being present with somebody in their suffering, like can mean like a lot to them. Yeah. Right. And like, I know I have a lot of friends who like immediately will be like, oh, well have you tried this or this or this or this, or My friend did this, you should try this. Yeah. Um, when sometimes we just like want to be like, listened to. Mm-hmm.

Um, and like, we don't need like all the solutions right now. Mm-hmm. Sometimes the solutions can be overwhelming. Oh, for sure. And I think for I that you brought that up 'cause that's, that's what I was gonna say too. Yeah. About like being present with them and where they're at in their journey. Yes. Yeah. And. And sometimes that's more helpful than trying to be the one to help to like look ahead. Right. Um, 'cause yeah, I, and again, it probably comes from a very well-meaning place.

Mm-hmm And I think I experienced this a lot on social media too. I think part of the reason why I don't share as much as I feel like some people want me to, 'cause there are other women going through this and as much as I want to like uplift, encourage them. Yeah. The hard part is whenever I do share, I get a slew of dms of people being like, oh, like my friend did this and this and this and this and this and have you tried this?

And Yeah. Um. Yeah, it's hard to hear sometimes 'cause one, the person you're talking to may have tried all those things. Right? And so it's almost like pointing out like, oh, look at all the things that they're, that you could do and didn't work for them and it didn't work for them, right? Yeah. So I think that knowing somebody's. Um, without knowing somebody's like journey mm-hmm. And them like inviting you into that, in that conversation.

I feel like being present looks like listening to them where they're at and encouraging them Yeah. Where they're at in their journey. Right. And not really like pushing towards the future again, like, oh, like adoption or all these other medical things that you could do or This helps so and so. Yeah. Um, 'cause you never know what's everybody's different and you never know what's gonna be the thing that, you know, helps you necessarily.

Yeah. Um. The other thing too that I thought of is if you have a friend that has opened up to you about like what their journey actually looks like, their medical history and procedures mm-hmm. And testing and all that kind of stuff, treatments that they're doing, if they've opened up to you about that, like being present with them in that journey. Mm-hmm. And offering prayers, like if, you know, like, oh, they have a surgery date on this day.

Yeah. Like offering prayers of like him praying for you today. Mm-hmm. Like, let me know if you need anything after or offering to bring a meal even like after they have a procedure done or something like that could be helpful. Yeah, absolutely. And like checking in on them mm-hmm. If they are sharing those things with you. Mm-hmm. I think is like a really. It makes you feel seen by them. Mm-hmm.

I, we, I, we had a friend, our neighbor, our other neighbor actually like, brought us a meal recently after we had a surgery. Um, and like, yeah, that just like, you know, it might not seem like that big of a deal, but like it is a big deal. Yeah. If someone does that for you. Yeah. So. Aw, Allie, thanks for sharing everything today. This is so cool in your heart. Yeah. Is there anything else that you like, feel like is on your heart that you wanna leave, um, our listeners with?

Any sort of encouragement or anything else that you feel like we didn't get to talk about today? Yeah, I feel like just overall like. I know this is like real, I'm really passionate about this. Maori's really passionate about this. It's just like that people don't feel alone. Yeah. Especially if you're Catholic. Like I think sometimes we almost feel like a little bit of shame that we're like not in the season of life that we hope to be in. Mm-hmm.

Uh, and just like to not forget that there's like other women who are like in the thick of it too. Um, and just to like not lose hope either. Yeah. Like that's one of the biggest things that, you know, I wrestle with every single day. Um, but yeah, to not lose hope and to like know that there's other people out there who are experiencing what you're experiencing also. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Lovely. Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us today. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

This is so good. Let's just end in a prayer. Yeah. For all those who are going through fertility problems, um, pregnancy loss, and just on their journey to build their families. I love that Name. The father, son, holy Spirit. Amen. Mother Mary, we ask for your intercession, um, for Allie and I and our journeys as well as all those that are listening and the people that they have in their lives that are going through infertility and pregnancy loss.

Um, that you would just cover them in your mantle, protect them and intercede for them, and give them the gift of motherhood. If it's the Lord's will, uh, we pray. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed our thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy wom Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Name of the Father, son. Holy Spirit. Amen.