Hey, I am your host, Mari Wagner, and you're listening to The Ever Be Podcast where Faith Meets Lifestyle. I'm so excited you're here. Whether you're a new listener or a longtime follower, I know there's something here for you. Pull up a chair and listen in for insightful, real life conversations and actionable steps on how to claim the. Full life God created you for. If you're a woman desiring to live a Christ-centered life in today's modern world, then this is for you. Welcome to ever be.
Welcome back to ever be everybody in this episode. We are going to be exploring how we as Catholic women, um, can lovingly reach out to others who maybe have Left the Catholic church, maybe who have tasted a little bit of what it has to offer, but ultimately decided maybe it wasn't for them and they have stepped away. So, um, we know that faith, you know, faith journeys are deeply personal and there's many reasons why somebody might feel disconnected from Catholicism.
Somebody might walk away or be hurt. Um, but the question is, how do we, as practicing Catholics respond to that? How can we walk alongside these women in love? How can we reflect Christ in our own lives and just gently invite them back into the fullness of faith. So today I'm joined by a very special guest, Lisa Brenink Meyer. She's the founder of Walking With Purpose, and she has a wealth of insight on this topic.
So I will let her introduce more of herself now, but please Lisa, welcome to ever be.
All right. It's so great to be here. I really look forward to this conversation and just love you and the work that you're doing and
Thank you.
all. And so, yeah, this is going to be a fun conversation and it's something have really always been super passionate about. And I think even the beginning of walking with purpose, which is now, um, Yeah, where I would guess word on the street would be that we're known as being a Catholic women's Bible study and Bible study would be really the big thing we're leading with.
I think it's a great landing place for a lot of people who already are really committed to their faith and they want to grow further, maybe have felt like, Oh, the Bible. I know I'm supposed to be reading it. I don't know where to begin. Um, at the beginning, it was very, very much created for women who are having trouble finding their place in the church, who are feeling actually quite disengaged and disconnected.
And right at the beginning, when I was seeing that happen, I was watching women leave or watching women stay with all their little kids at mass, but I could just see on their faces and then hearing conversations like, I'm doing this. I'm supposed to be doing this, but I'm not getting a lot out of it.
And just seeing so much disconnection, walking with purpose started not by like turning to priests or, or the church and saying, can you please fix this problem, which I'm witnessing happening among my friends. Um, I went to the women who had left. And I said to them, what are the questions that you had that were not being answered or what were the needs that you had in your heart that weren't being addressed?
And so you went looking for something else, because I think for all of us, Mari, like when we get into this subject, we make a little bit of an effort here, um, and as long as we haven't so gotten into a holy huddle, I really pray we haven't, that we don't actually know and love anyone who isn't in this category, say that with like quotes where they, you know, aren't, aren't interested, we're going to, these are, these are people that like are thoughtful, intentional, deep people.
It's not just like, I'm going down to the Protestant church because their music is better. And then we're just like, Oh my gosh, you're so shallow. How could you walk away from the Eucharist? And these are thoughtful people and their questions good.
Yeah.
in which they were saying this part of my life and heart is not being ministered to here. They were, they were really good points. And so walking with purpose was built to answer those questions, was built to meet those needs. so, has never not been a super big deal to me.
Yeah. Well, you are definitely the perfect person to bring on the podcast to talk about this. And I'm really excited to dive in. So let's just get right into it. Um, if you just want to start out by sharing, what do you think are some of these most common reasons that women initially connect with Catholicism? What might cause them later to feel led to step away?
All right. Good question. Maria. Okay I think when I think about initially connecting for most people, um, when your background is, is Catholicism, it's, it's just been the family expectation, right? It's been, this is, this is how we do things. We get up on Sundays, we all go. Um, if you went to grew up, if someone grew up going to Catholic school, it then not only becomes just a part of the fabric of your society. schedule. It's also even woven into your experience of friendship.
You and your friends go to mass. Why? Because there's a school mass like there are things that that aren't weird. They're just a part of your life. And um, I think for a lot of us, we just kept going with it because it's what people around us wanted us to do. And it was fine. It wasn't harmful.
Um, and then for For a segment of people, they also encountered Christ personally during that time, you know, maybe it was at, you know, Steubenville conference or, and it really great experience of life, you know, just youth minister who really made things relevant. Certainly there are plenty examples of people who have encountered and who have encountered Jesus. And, and through that, that's why they engaged, right.
But for a lot of people, I don't think it was something necessarily that was a personal. Transformative encounter. And then you see the consequences of that with people walking away when it is no longer a part of the fabric of your life, when suddenly, um, most of your friends aren't going. And in fact, they're like going, we're in college. Like, what are you doing? Like, why are you working your schedule around something so weird on a Sunday?
And we all want to go to this music festival and it's all day or all weekend. suddenly it becomes this decision of, okay, I can either do this good thing or I can do this good thing. And there are two good things. And all my friends are doing this and if I don't do it, I'm actually weird and maybe not being a part of the group. And so we start making, I think these decisions that seem really small at the time, like, yeah, I'm going to go to the weekend music festival. Okay. Big deal.
Like, does that mean I don't love God? No, it just means I want to go with my friends, but bit by bit by bit, it no longer is a part of a habit. And, um, and I think that for people for whom going to church, being in whatever degree of relationship with God they were. When that gave a feeling of peace growing up and it felt good and gave structure, then it was great to have in life. But it's like, well, that works until it doesn't.
When you get to a point where you're like, well, this isn't giving me peace. It's actually giving me conflict with my friends or with my boyfriend. You know, when you start to not feel its relevance in your day to day life, except in terms of the things that it says that I can't do, like all of a sudden, okay, I can't have sex with my boyfriend. Um, I can't get married on the beach. I, you know, I can't use birth control. It's like, okay, you know what?
This, no longer, it's messing with my life, you know? And it's like, I liked it before cause it actually gave me peace and made me feel good. And this is so the opposite. This is not bringing peace. This is actually bringing conflict into some of my relationships. it's like, well, what's going to give, and we are so hardwired for a relationship. We pick the people,
Hmm.
the people that are in front of us, you know?
Yeah.
don't know. Those are just some of my thoughts.
Yeah. And I love what you said there. We're hardwired for relationship. And so we often pick the people. And I think that what comes to mind right now is like, well, like what you said, if you've had a deep encounter with Christ, it's likely you have. More of a strong relationship with Christ than if you don't. And depending on, you know, for whatever time you were in the church and you were feeding that relationship, the stronger it got.
And so that builds up that muscle in, in the face of the world, you know, to be able to choose the relationship of Jesus. And. If you don't have that buildup, right, if it's just been a check the box or do it because my family used to go, you know, or because it made me feel good, but if there's no real rooted relationship with Christ, then yeah, it makes sense why it would be easier to choose the relationships in front of you instead of the relationship with Jesus.
Well said.
I think a lot of times too, there are misconceptions, um, of the Catholic church and I, I'm totally going to butcher this quote.
I think it was Fulton Sheen or something, but it was like, nobody hates the Catholic church For what it is you just hate the catholic church for what you think it is or something like that, you know and if you were to truly Study what the church teaches learn what the church teaches and the reasons behind everything If you actually did that like then you fall in love with the faith and then you find out the wisdom of the church the beauty of the church Um, but I know that there are a lot of
misconceptions or maybe even A true negative experience that have happened, um, that contribute to feeling disconnected, um, or disillusioned, um, with the church or with their faith. So how do you feel like we can better address these challenges, um, maybe both as individuals and maybe even as the broader Catholic community?
Yeah, you bring up such a good point, Mari, and I think that the misconceptions can be misconceptions of what the church teaches and, um, Yeah, I'm just being truly misinformed, but it can just be a misunderstanding of what love and freedom are, you know where what you define as what is love and what you define is what is freedom is something that Is so different from the way that the church defines it.
So it's almost like we're trying to enter into a dialogue and we've got different definitions for the keywords we're using. And so we just over ourselves. Yeah, we miss, we miss each other completely. And so I think probably the most damaging misconception is around the word love. And what is love? I think that a lot of people, and in a lot of dialogues I have with, with young adults, first thing they say about the Catholic Church is it's judgmental and it's not loving.
And the people in it who are the most faithful and practicing are judgmental and are not loving. And, and it's coming from, uh, understanding of what love is, that's very different than You know, our understanding. So I think, you know, the best definition of it, um, for me is that love is willing to go to the other. And whenever you, you kind of start a conversation and say, can we just like get on the same page in terms of when I say love, this is what I mean.
When I use this word and it's a very, um, you can say that person, when you say love, what do you mean? I think this is so key when we enter into dialogue, not to say, okay, well, um, I have the correct definition of love and I'm going to tell you what it is. And now when we talk about it, let's talk about it using my word, my way. But to first say, I would lead with saying. you say love, like, what do you mean? Like, how would you define it?
And then you can say, okay, when I say love, I'm talking about willing to go to the other. Okay. When you were starting from that framework, all of the church's rules. Sound very different. If they're coming from a place of love is willing, the good of the other, there is concern that that behavior, that thing would actually hurt you. That's where that's coming from. Like, but I would, I would wait a very, very long time in dialogue with someone before I was even talking about the regulations.
And, I do think that that feeling of, um, The church and people who are following Christ within the Catholic Church are judgmental. You know what, Mari? I'd love to say that's a misconception, but I actually think it's true.
Yeah,
And I think we've got some really serious work to do. I really do. Like this is maybe, um, this is maybe the thing that gets me up most in the night in prayer that I don't think we realize. The degree to which there are some really deep seated things in our hearts that are judgmental and they do come out even if we think that we're being so careful the way that we say things. And I think right now in our current political climate, um, I see a lot of people who aren't even trying to.
To sound different. I think there's a boldness right now that I see in the way people are speaking this sense of I'm on the right side of this issue. I'm on the right side of the fence. Therefore, if I speak this out, I'm speaking truth. This truth needs to be heard and I'm just going to go with it, you know, and
regardless of how it affects the people on the other,
Yeah. And so I think that that it's not just a misconception about about judgmentalism.
how do you. I feel like we can grow in that, like maybe us as Catholic women, um, how can we sort of be aware of that and change that, um, outlook or that the way that we approach people that are maybe new to the church or falling away to the church? Because I think you're right. I think that like even practicing Catholics, you know, like we can fall into being like, no, we're not judgmental. No, we're not judgmental. But I think like, sometimes you can get.
so far into what you feel like is the right way to live, you know, doing the things like the way the church has called you to do it. And if you see someone not doing it that way,
Transcription
like a, Ooh,
LLC.
like, Ooh, that's, that's not good. You know, like who knows, who knows what's going on in their life. And so how do you feel like as women, we can kind of like change that mindset, um, or just get out of that. Judgmentalism, you know, and be more loving and more non judgmental and walk alongside these women who have left the church.
Okay, I'm just going to shoot straight with you, Murray. I don't know. Like I,
Yes.
I don't know your listeners. I really don't. I don't know. know where they're coming from. I don't know who they voted for. I don't know how they come at any of this. Like, I really don't. I'm coming into this really cold. Usually, I know a little bit more and I can maybe adjust my words accordingly, but I'm just going to shoot straight with you.
When I'm on social media And I look at a Catholic influencers, what I'm seeing a ton of not using necessarily these words, although sometimes I see these exact words is leading with a message of, I am, I'm, I'm a conservative. And what happens is other women, young women who want to get this right, like don't want to be believing the wrong things or whatever fluctuating. There's huge trends, um, among young men as well. And so there's just like a leading with.
The things that mark us in a certain way.
Mm.
and then there's a sense of instant belonging. And I think not just instant belonging. It's like, if I follow that person and if she's telling me, you know, not only her makeup routine, but, um, also like just how she lives her life, how she prioritizes her time, um, how she sees things and of course there's so much subliminal messaging going on all the time about what, What we believe on every dot and diddle.
Sure.
I can just lock in and live like her and believe like her, like maybe I can have her life, maybe I'll have just safety and security and I won't have that wholly wretched feeling of needing to figure every dang thing out. Not only what I'm doing with my life, but also like what I think about everything.
Mm hmm.
um, And I just, I don't know, like I'm looking at my own kids who are young adults and I, I gave my everything to raising my kids in the faith. I, um, you know, I write Bible studies. I've written children's curriculum for years. Like I, this was, when I say this, like everything I've poured into walking with purpose. I first poured that into my family.
They got, they got my best walking with purpose gets my next best in the sense of what I write, but my kids got my best, so, you When I talk about my kids and where they're at within the church, I'm not talking about kids who've always been disengaged. These are kids who've had vibrant relationships with the Lord, who have been exposed to the best of what the Catholic church offers all over the country, if not all over the world.
Like we have done things internationally, we've done things all over the U S. and, So many of my kids cannot find a home in the Catholic church right now because it is just so, there's just this super, um, like I do need to be careful with my word here, but it's not that there's not a sense of, of belonging and of acceptance of where we're, it's like, this is the mold that we need to fit into. And it feels like a, like a straight jacket to my kids.
And these are not kids that are like, you know, They're just like, you know, I just need normal people
Sure.
with it. Or, you know, I don't know. I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but I just feel like, um, the mix of the political into the other does not, does not help us. So
Mm.
lead with, we can lead with these are the things that I believe. And, um, and I think a lot of that gets into gender roles. A lot of that gets into, you know, our fascination with ballerina farm, like all these, all these things, right.
Yes.
lead with. people actually most need, which isn't so much clarity around, should I be a stay at home? Mom, should I be a working mom? Should I have a large family? Should I have something? I mean, these are, these are, these are much more personal things that people are going to work through with the Lord, right?
But if we were going really to the heart of the matter, and I think that what people desperately, desperately need um, To know how absolutely great and amazing it is to belong to God, to be cherished by God, to be like, to be in this unbelievably safe relationship that gets untouched by any of my circumstances, no matter my sorrow, no matter what, you know, what comes through with my personal dream and what does not, no matter what gets thrown at me, like there is a place of cherished belonging
that can give me this anchor through life. You know, you were just, we were just talking offline, you know, before we started recording and you were telling me what Father Mike shared at Sikh that was so powerful. And I'm not going to try and summarize it. You can
Yes. Right. Yes. Yes.
real quick. Cause it's going to make, it's going to make my point.
I was going to say, I knew this was going to lead into this conversation at some point. So I'm glad you brought it up, but we just, we just came back from seek and father Mike had an amazing keynote. And the thing that stood out to me the most in his keynote, he gave this analogy of a astronaut being out in space and like getting out of the ship and knowing that, like, you Because it's a place of zero gravity.
Like you have to have, you have to be tethered to something or else you'll just float away. And so he's holding onto the ship or else he knows he's going to float away. And no matter what the decision is, whether it's a conscious decision to let go of the ship and to float away into nothingness, right. And, and die. Or if it's a accidental like slip, you know, or just a casual thing that he didn't realize was happening where he let go, the result would be the same.
And he would drift into the nothingness and he related it back into our faith and how, no matter what our decision is, whether it's a conscious decision to let go of the ship, to let go of the church, to let go of the Lord, we'll float into nothingness and die. Or whether it's. It's something that slowly starts happening. It's something that we start drifting away, you know, but eventually like our fingers slip and we completely let go. The result is also the same.
We begin to drift away into the nothingness and die.
So it's such a powerful image. And I think we can look at that image and think, okay, that has to, who is, what is the ship? The ship is the church. Um, I think it's more powerful when, in a sense, the ship is, is God himself. It's, it's the father, right? It's the heart of a father who does not want you drifting into nothingness and wants that connection to him. Right. And, ultimately I think what we all want is to be tethered.
To someone will love us regardless of what we do and will give us this, you know, this baseline, this anchor of belonging and unconditional love and safety and security That's what we're all after and that's what, that's what God offers. And then the church comes and like, you know, carries them to us and allows us ways in which we can remain so much closer to the Lord and grow. And, and then the community that just comes with people around it and everything.
But I just think that whole, appeal of being cherished in that way by him and a belonging
Yeah.
to him is I think more what. Is the heartache of people. And I think lead instead with many things that are lifestyle choices. If you know what I'm saying, then what happens if I'm following an influencer and she's made so much out of, you know, finding your soulmate, meeting the right person, and then how wonderful it is to have married this kind of man. And you just aren't meeting anyone. It's just like the main thing that this Catholic influencer who has a lot to offer in terms of.
I hope her relationship with God, it's like, if I don't get that one thing, we'll then kind of forget it. Or the influencer, it's all about her kids and the family life she's building with the domestic church. Okay. Well, and if the Lord has not, if my fertility is not what I wanted it to be, and I'm just sitting here going, okay, well, I can't, I can't have that. And so what is this for me? think we may be lead with the wrong things in those ways. And I think we need to lead with.
really what is going on in the human heart and those universal desires because what he is offering us is this experience of cherished belonging. And, and I think really the way to women is through the individual heart, like her need for healing. The fact that only through Jesus can her heart truly be fully healed. And the first taste of that kind of love is going to come from us. And so we need to be offering That experience of cherished belonging in a breathtaking, almost shocking way.
Yes, totally.
Okay. So if all my time is spent being an influencer online and you know, all the things that I'm wanting people to learn from. I don't think I'm going to have time to give the actual people in front of me an experience of cherished belonging with me. Um, if my boundaries are so far up, if really, to be honest, what I've made my main focus is my own self care and my prayer life as a part of that. Okay. I see so much of this. Like it's the umbrella is self care. Prayer is a part of it.
It's like, no, no, no. Like that's the wrong order. You know, it really, I don't know. I just think we, we can get off in some of these ways. And so then our desire to, to see women's hearts just cracked open and met with the love of God, um, It becomes a really good intention, but it doesn't really happen. And I think giving each person we encounter an experience from us of cherished belonging has got to be one of our primary focuses. If you have a heart for
Yes.
you don't then fine, just do it for the people that are right in front of you. But if you have a heart for evangelism, meeting people where they are in this way and not
leading.
meeting them,
Meeting them where they're at, truly
Yes.
down to where they're at, right? At a whole different level than where you may be at and leading with the love of Christ. I think that's the message that like we're hearing here right now is that there's many beautiful things about the teachings of the faith.
There's many, you know, um, things that make sense that the, that the church teaches, um, that's for our good, but not everybody's ready to hear those things and not everybody's ready to hear that right off the bat and not everybody's going to believe that or be convicted in that. Even if in the end. You know, God's original plan is what's going to be best for them. So leading with the love of Christ. 'cause that is at our core, our biggest human desire. We have this
Yeah.
And nothing will fill it besides the love of Christ. And as fallen broken humans who experience fallenness and brokenness all around us all the time, we're constantly met with other broken humans, right. That continue to, to wound that and to, um, just like even. Open more that gaping desire of, like, wanting to be fully loved and fully cherished and fully, um, cared for and desired by one who, you know, would do it, uh, unconditionally, right?
Um, and so absolutely like leading with the love of Christ, especially if you are being called to evangelize and being called to step out and bring these people back back to the church. But. Do you have any other practical steps that we can take to gently invite women back to the faith
Mm
without maybe overwhelming them or, um, alienating them?
yeah, I do. Can I first tell a story?
Yeah.
Okay. And then I'll give the practical things I learned from it.
Perfect.
a life changing year due to an experience of a relationship with someone, um, I met a little over a year ago, who I knew desperately needed the love of God. And I, um, I was all in like, I'm like, I will make this, I will totally clear time on my schedule to spend time with this person. And, um, and I just thought, okay, true confessions. I'm like, this is kind of what I'm good at. Like I know how to talk about the Lord in a way that, you know, is appealing. And I was all set, um, to start that.
what this, um, young person said to me was, um, And I knew here, this important background, I knew what was needed was an experience of unconditional love in order to be able to really contemplate the possibility of God being unconditional in his love for this young person as well. Um, and this young person, I basically had early on conversations. Will you trust me? You know, can we, you know, have a more intentional relationship where we're talking about things?
And this young person said to me, yes, but the only thing is you are not allowed to talk about God to me.
Ooh.
go zone. I was like, Oh, but that's everything.
You're like, how are we going?
I'm like, then I can't use any of the words. I can't say anything. And, but what I wrote, but I did not feel a release from the Lord
Hmm.
but it wasn't like, Oh, well, you're off the hook. If you can't share about me with this person in the way that you're used to doing, then you don't have to do it. It was very much. It was a clear call from the Lord to step in really in the role of a mother is, is why, you know, this is Graham. So anyway. I had to learn to share the love of Christ without ever talking about God. And that's actually harder than you might think.
So I was a step even beyond not talking about the goodness of the church or the goodness of church. She was like, I couldn't talk about God. So what I first had to do is I had to become an utterly safe person. And this young person's life,
Yeah.
had to become an utterly trustworthy person in this person's life. I had to become someone where my words could be counted on not to wound. But instead to be a bomb, had to become a truth teller because if ever I would be caught in a lie, the trustworthiness would be gone. I had to learn how to, um, how to show up regularly.
I mean, there was just so much in just, um, learning how to be the kind of person in this young person's life that my love felt similar to the way I would describe the love of God.
Yeah.
talking to him about it, I had to be that. this young person's life, wanted to talk about deeper things and this is where this gets practical I wanted to talk about the the big questions of life and so did this young person and so The way that I did it and this is the practical advice. I would give is to is to Vigilantly love well, like no careless words.
No, um, no ghosting and even the smallest of ways no um It's got to be super sacrificial and super consistent and steady in the way that you show up. No flakiness, right? Um, leaving, you know, an open message, whatever all the things that get our feelings hurt, right? None of that.
Yes.
Meeting them in the mess, loving them there. And then this is key, finding the truth and the goodness that they already have and are already experiencing. Okay. So we're all searching for truth, beauty, and goodness. So instead of my starting by going, this is where it is. I go to, I went to this young person. I'm like, where are you encountering truth? are you and coming beauty? Where are you encountering, encountering goodness?
um, and I didn't then go, okay, now would you like to hear where I am? I said, nothing. I just asked. I just got, I just deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper got to know this person. I'm like, if they ask me, I will share with them. They didn't ask. It was such a delight to be. With someone who wanted you just to know them, they didn't ask them like, that's fine. Then it's not the time.
The way in which I found this young person was encountering truth, beauty, and goodness was through the music being listened to. The TV shows being watched, the movies being watched, the books being read. so every single time a book recommendation was given to me, I read it every time. We, what do you think of this podcast? What do you think of this song? What do you think of this TV show? I watched all of it. I was watching to and taking in more secular content than I ever have in my life.
Um, but in it, what I was finding was that thread That goes through everything, which is the human person searching for truth beating goodness. And then I was able through that discussion of that movie, through the discussion of that song to find the good, to point it out and to be able to say, this is the part of it that I loved because it speaks to me of love or it speaks to me of beauty or it speaks to me of truth.
Hmm.
for a good year, I didn't ever take it longer than that. But all of what I had now, I had this massive, vocabulary instead of illustrations instead of experiences that when there was a clear moment in our relationship when trust was established and it was about a year in and I knew it was established because a letter was written to me saying the way I've been loved in this year, like I can see. I can see you can, you can be trusted. You can be studied.
and I know it was causing this young person to go and maybe God's like that too,
Wow.
because it hadn't been yet experienced in, in other relationships. But then I felt like after that year, once that trust was established, I could start saying in that song, okay, see, this is why This is why I have the relationship with God that I do, because, you know, I see in this song, that's him. true of him. And so we were, and then that's all I would say, but it gave us this common language, which wasn't.
whole body of language that, um, so many of the people we know and love who have walked away have had just enough of it that it's almost like a vaccine. It's, it's almost like they hear you starting to talk about, it's like, I already, I've already had some of that and I'm actually resistant to it the way a vaccine is. This gave us a whole new set of things to talk about those deeper principles, and to get at the same, the same thing and what I've been seeing is the heart opening.
Slowly to God, but it's a genuine opening. It's, it's not a, you know, my goal isn't to like get this young person to sit in the church pew. No, my goal is a heart that's been totally won over by Jesus Christ that the whole life is going to be changed. And, um, yeah. So anyway, I, um, it's taken a tremendous amount of time.
Yeah. I mean, that is patient.
you know?
Yes. And I mean, it does definitely like reflect the heart of the father, like that relentless pursuit, no matter what, no matter where we are. Right? Like no matter what we're going through or how much we want to hide from him or anything, like he's there, he pursues, he's loving, he's patient and he goes after you and he goes after you and he goes after you and I feel like in a very gentle way, you did that with this person of just patient and pursuit of their heart, right?
Without an agenda, like truly,
an agenda.
yeah.
so key. Without an agenda. was no agenda. Like, I, I don't know where the story is going to end. That's not, that's not up to me. Can I just share one more thing that I think was really key and really important that maybe we can all apply. I have learned so much from this young person. I have been changed. young person.
And I think that for us in our conversations with people, when we want them to come back to the church, oftentimes, um, we have this idea of, I want to get you from here to here, right? I want you to move, but if we can enter into their worlds and see which questions they're exploring, and this is key, learn from them first, before you teach them, you learn from them first. And then you tell them what you're learning. I am learning this from you. am being changed.
By you because you were influencing me in these ways. What that does, it like changes. It's like gives permission in this relationship that we can both do that. We can both have a paradigm shift and it's a safe place to do that. And we can learn from each other, but you go first. You go first learning from them. It's incredibly disarming and opens up the possibility then.
Of them maybe learning something different, different from you, because what you're doing is you are modeling for them what you hope to see in them, right? But you're genuinely modeling it because you have genuinely learned from them. Like, I have genuinely been changed by this young person in ways I'm so grateful for. It's not blowing sunshine, you know,
Yeah.
we know it when someone's just saying it, but it isn't true.
Beautiful. Beautiful. Um, do you want to circle back now to some practical steps we can take to invite, you know, these women who have maybe walked away? Maybe we have somebody in our life that's, That's similar to this person, you know, who have walked away and, um, maybe they're in the same place where like, they don't even want to hear about God or maybe there are more open, but they're just like very, um, skeptical, you know, or unsure about coming back.
What are some practical steps that we can take to gently invite women back to the faith without being overwhelming?
I think that only step out to do that if you are willing to love in radical ways. If you don't have time love in radical ways and just do the things I was just talking about about building relationships. Then I would almost say then don't do it.
Like, don't, I mean, unless you know you've got a great Bible study that you think would be a great fit for them or a great, you know, book club, you know, sure you can invite them to things or whatever, but like the transformation is going to come, I believe in the context of relationship. there aren't, there isn't a checklist of say this, do that. No, it's like, when I say like the needle will move just a little bit, it'll be like a year of loving. And then there's this little step forward.
Right. So it's, to me, the practical step is, Really taking a hard look at that relationship. Am I, am I, am I an encourager in this person's life? Am I a source of steady support in this person's life as the majority of what I am saying, something that is really, um, building them up. And, um, am I a truth teller so that, you know, I'm not like whitewashing over things.
If we get into stuff, we get into stuff and I'm honest, but, um, I really do think it's, it is relationship, but I do think there are resources that can help. And one of those things, this is, um, this is what I've been most passionate about for many years because I, you know, I wrote, um, I don't know, like, I don't know, maybe I've written 15 Bible studies. I don't even know which Bible studies I've written to be honest.
But, um, I did that and then I started really working with middle school girls and high school girls
Okay.
offering them a Bible study is not going to do the trick. Like that is not where they're at. That's not what they think is helpful. And so I've had to take all these steps back, which means I've spent the last seven years in the land of the skeptics. Like literally, All my time is being spent with people who are like checking out, this isn't engaging for me. So I really had to learn what is engaging, what draws the person out into conversation.
And so I created a high school program that just got published last year called sisters to strength. That's very different from other discipleship courses because it really meets girls with the questions they're asking around identity and friendship and purpose. um, And we've had young adult studies, Bible studies, which I'm so glad we've got that on offer for girls who are ready and hungry for it. And they get really good responses and sell super well.
But I thought there's a whole demographic of women in their twenties for whom they don't want to go to a Bible study. They don't think that's going to be helpful. You invite them to your book club and they're like, I can see through it. It's, it's just the same. It's, it's you and all your super uber Catholic friends trying to get me to believe something that I want to go to the book club either.
And so I met with a group of young people all in their twenties, To basically say, you know, think of the person in your life, your sister, your friend, your brother, whomever that you really wish was walking really in freedom and love in a relationship with Christ and what has worked, what hasn't worked for them. And with these young people, we, we developed, we developed some resources that I think actually can really, really be helpful.
And this is something practical that you could put in the hands of, um, of someone that you really care about. And one of those is we did, um, we did an online. course, and it's called Heart of Vines, which is coming from a John Bellion song. And it's this idea that we all have vines around our hearts, and they're vines that are lies about our identity.
They're vines that's like our perfectionism, those vines of, you know, the bad choices we've made, the screwed up relationships we've got, like, our hearts are tangled. And that is a starting point for all of us, that we want that untangled. And so we take Um, we take people on a journey through the garden of their hearts, and in the first section of it, it's called uproot.
We're uprooting all the things that are really not serving us well, and they can be beliefs about us, beliefs about the world, beliefs about God, um, ways in which we are living stories that we're believing about what's going to really bring us happiness and joy. And then in the next section, it's called, um, cultivate. And it's, what are the things then that we want to put in the garden?
um, lastly, flourish, what kind of a trellis Do we need to have, if we're going to continue to live in this way? take a really long time in this course. It's like a masterclass style, um, to even mention God. And what I do is I take an extremely long time to just get the person's head nodding, but you actually do know what I'm going through and what I care about and what it feels like to be me. And not until that's established. Do we start to talk about what maybe would be some helpful beliefs?
And that's what I think is missing, Mari, is I think we jump right into the solution with people and they aren't engaged with us. But we, I spend enough time really getting the person to nod along going, okay, actually you are naming.
What I'm experiencing because what I'm doing I have disengaged from the ship and I am floating towards nothingness And I wouldn't necessarily describe it that way But I can describe to you what that feels like and when I describe what that feels like, you know And and they start to go yeah And and I've tried this to tether to something and it's not leading me anywhere and then I tried to tether to this and that's not Working when we start to describe that People start to lean in.
And so we've developed it as a course that you can just do privately online, um, masterclass style. We've also written it in book format because some people prefer to read. And then there's an accompanying journal with really, really good journaling questions. And so this is a great resource to put in the hands of a friend.
Wow.
the reason why is because Iris, we respect where these. Young women are coming from and it's not, you won't feel like you're a project. You'll feel like you're being met in your mess, where you are, that it's not being trivialized, trivialized, and that you are slowly led towards a different perspective. But all the while the people have reviewed. in the book have said, you so deeply respect your listener or your reader or your unit.
It's so clear that they're not a project you deeply respect where they're from. And so there's a tone to it that I think is really different. I haven't seen anything else quite like it out, out there. And we are going to be releasing that at the beginning of March. So it's the pipe, but it's going to be a great thing that you can put into the hands of someone that you love. Um, but if you're going to do that. I really hope you've got the relationship with him or her
Yes.
really being worked on. Cause
So,
biggest,
so do you recommend, um, and you just answered part of it now, um, having that relationship established first, that trust established first, but then do you feel like this is a resource that could be passed on to somebody who is not currently active in the church?
it is for someone
It is.
currently after. No, that's not to say someone wouldn't benefit from going through it. Who already is. You
Yeah.
will benefit from it
Yeah.
by the end.
It sounds very much what like a lot of women need regardless, you know, and like working through those tingles in your heart, those lies uprooting, like all that. I'm like, uh, we, we might all need that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
We all need it. We all need it. We all do. And the last section of it flourished. That's really about the basics of discipleship. I don't use that word. I'm very careful. My word choice, that is not an appealing word. Normal people don't use the word discipleship. I'm sorry, they don't.
Yes.
many words that we use as Catholics and people are like, what are you
What does that mean? Yeah.
What does that mean? That's church talk, you know, so I, I don't use those words, but yeah, no, it's, it's definitely something. I, I, I know who we wrote it for and I know loads of people are going to do it and they're going to be like, that isn't where I was at, but I've benefited so much from it. But I just think there's, um, there's just not enough out there that really respects where the skeptic is and gives her time
Yes.
where her questions are respected, you know, where her, her, um, barriers. Where we say, you know, fair point, that is a big barrier that is hard to get past. Let's sit in this for a minute. Let's explore this. Let's not just jump over and go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But look at all the things that are so good. Like that's not effective for people. They need to be given the time to look at their doubts and, and those things.
And, and let's be honest, those of us who are practicing Catholics, who have, you know, been walking with the Lord, maybe even our whole lives, we've got those too. We do. And if you don't, it's because suffering hasn't hit you yet because
Oh
does, the questions
Oh yeah.
and you know what I'm saying?
Absolutely. I know what you're saying. I've felt that in my own life for sure. For sure. So speaking truth, Lisa, is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners today?
Oh gosh. Um, let's say average age of your listener would you say, Marie?
Um, most of them are like 23 to like 35.
Oh my gosh. Like my favorite age.
Yes. Like, like usually, like, I think most of them are like right out of college. It's funny. My audience grows with me, you know? So for a long time, mostly college age girls, but actually every time I go back and check, I'm like, Oh, wow. There's actually more and more women that are like in their twenties, you know, early thirties. So a lot of them, yeah. Are you really just growing along with me? And I just turned 27. So in the middle of that,
Yeah, that's how walking with purpose has been too. And it's because people trust you and they're walking with you, you
I don't know.
I would say just imparting one is that not a single one of you that I wouldn't love to sit down and have coffee with and hear what is on your heart because what is on your heart so matters. And if I had time with you and you didn't think I was weird, I would probably. Cup your face in my hands and just say, I see you, I see how hard you are trying. I see you giving your life, your all, and it is hard. And I just want you to know that who you are and what you are doing is enough.
It's enough in the eyes of your heavenly father who just looks at you with infinite love and he's so proud of you. And when you mess up. And he sees that he just knows you're aiming for something that's probably a really, really good desire, a desire, even that he gave you a desire for security, a desire for belonging, a desire to be loved, to be wanted, you know, whatever it would be, you just aimed a little bit off, right?
You thought that thing or that behavior, that person or whatever would get you there. And it didn't. And you're sitting in this moment feeling so mad at yourself and so frustrated and he's like, Hey, listen, what you aimed for was a little off. Aim at me, aim at me for those very same things, because I love you. we're in this together and you are moving forward and, and you're just beautiful. You're beautiful mess. You're beautiful in the during. And, um, so take heart.
Don't give up, keep persevering. It's hard to be in your twenties. People say, it's like, you've got all the choices in the world. And that's so great. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed by the plethora of choices. These are not easy years. They aren't,
Totally. Totally.
you are loved and seen.
That was so beautiful. Thank you, Lisa. I feel like those are all words that come straight from a mother's heart and thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your heart and your wisdom. It is, it is very clear how much you care, um, and love the women that you're serving and really care about helping them encounter the love of Christ first and foremost. So where can our listeners find more of you and more of walking with purpose?
Yeah. So that would be walking with purpose. com and, um, so you can go to the website, you can follow us on social and, um, we're on, we're on Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook. I don't think any of your listeners are probably on Facebook, but we are there. Probably Instagram is the best place.
Yeah,
um, Yeah. And if you, um, if you go onto our website, you can get ahold of our, our, you know, our newsletters and everything that comes out that way. But yeah, I would really keep an eye out for heart of vines. That's the thing that I think would be the resource that, um, that'll be the most beneficial and that'll be launching beginning of March.
perfect. We'll make sure to get all those links in the show notes so people can find them easily. Um, and I will just second, you know, how amazing walking with purposes before we hit record. I was telling Lisa that, um, my two best friends and I, we worked through one of their Bible studies early last year and it was very transformative and a lot for some very fruitful conversations and it just got right to the heart. No fluff. Um, very, very beautiful and moving.
So There's definitely so much goodness in your resources and I cannot wait for Heart of Vines and for people to get their hands on that one as well.
Thanks, Larry.
Thanks, Lisa.