Hey, I'm your host, Mari Wagner, and you're listening to the ever be podcast where faith meets lifestyle. I'm so excited you're here, whether you're a new listener or a longtime follower, I know there's something here for you. Pull up a chair and listen in for insightful real life conversations and actionable steps on how to claim the full life God created you for. If you're a woman desiring to live a Christ centered life in today's modern world, then this is for you. Welcome to Ever Be.
All right. Happy Wednesday friends. We have a long time friend on the podcast here today. McLean Noah. If you follow her on Instagram at a Catholic convo, you probably know who she is. She was like one of the OG Catholic content creators back in the day and still is. I think before I started my account, some of my friends were like, you should follow this girl, like a Catholic convo. Like, this is kind of what we feel like you should do. So like, she's the OG basically.
Um, so McLean welcome to ever be,
Hi, thanks for having me. Uh, it is an honor. So thank you, Mari.
can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you're doing in case people maybe don't know who you are, don't follow you yet.
Yes, absolutely. Um, so my name is McLean. I am a young woman living in South Dakota, which, um, Knowing me, I never thought I would say, but, um, basically I am a mother, I'm a wife, I am a beloved daughter. Um, those actually go in backwards order, so you can just reverse that and that's the order they go in. And, um, yeah, I'm very passionate about, um, social media, the effect that it has on the church and, uh, the greater role of evangelization.
Um, but also all of the, um, things that can come with social media as far as the negative sides that I don't know are being spoken about enough I think everyone has experienced and it's kind of this like secret, uh, unmentioned thing that we. Think we can just kind of pray about and deal with. Um, but I think it should really be part of a bigger conversation, especially in the world of creatives and people who are in the Catholic Instagram Um, yeah, other than that, I love my husband.
I love my son. I love South Dakota and I'm just happy to be here.
Good. Yeah, I'm glad that you have opened up this conversation on Instagram and I mean, it's been a few years of you talking about it here and there. So it's not like it's new. Um, but I honestly, I just don't feel like I've seen a lot of other people speak on the topic. Which is what I thought of you when I wanted to talk about it. And before we hit record, I was telling McLean selfishly. She's here talking about this right now.
Cause I feel like I'm scrolling a lot lately and I like need boundaries and I need a conversation with someone to be like, okay, what are, what is the purpose of social media? How do we know when we're going too far? How do we know when it's using us instead of us using it? Um, so I'm excited to jump in, but I think, uh, just starting kind of in a baseline level talk to us about like, What do you feel like is social media addiction? Um, how did you become interested in this topic?
And like, what really is it just on a basic level?
Yeah, um, so addiction is a very bold word and I do use that word on purpose because I think it creates a sense of urgency and also speaks into other vices that we can experience and other forms of addiction that we can experience so, um, Nothing that I say is going to be, you know, I'm not trained in addiction or, um, you know, any, anything that is, uh, medically involved with what we're going to be talking about, um, but just looking and observing and being in the social media world and then
having my. A humble understanding of, um, vice and Catholicism is what I'll be speaking out of. But, um, social media addiction is basically a way of, um, indicating when. You have an overuse of social media. So overuse is a lighter term that we can use Um, but basically you feel a tie or you see yourself Uh the physical action of being tied to social media in a way. That's not Moderate or not prudent.
So just like um addiction to alcohol is going to be over consumption of alcohol or whatever Um, kind of like a worshiping in a sense, I idolatry of. a thing is going to lead into that addiction. so when we idolize and, um, kind of worship social media in our time and in our hearts, what I'm referring to with, um, social media addiction, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, that's a really great, um, explanation. What can this look like practically for somebody? How can we kind of maybe like take note of our actions?
Yeah. So this is gonna look different for a ton of people, which is why it's tricky. but. Essentially, the reason why I became so passionate talking about this was because of The, my own poverty that I found in, uh, social media overuse. And so what I found was an initial desire and heart for, um, being a Catholic voice on Instagram and sharing the gospel and sharing my life in order to witness to what Jesus has done for me.
Um, you, uh, that's really easy to do if you think of the context of a blog, like a website blog, because that's really a one sided, you're putting out things and then, um, you're kind of closing that blog social media when it was introduced this back and forth interactive concept that allowed people to, um, Continue to invest in the platform as it invests in them. So you're being given content and reels and an explore page, um, all the time, even when you're just trying to create.
What you want to create on the platform, if that makes sense. there's really no way for you to just, um, take from social media. It is going to take something from you. And so you have to know as you're entering in that that's what we're dealing with. Which is why I think.
Creators need to be more sober to this reality because it is Something that can really draw you in and bring you into um Social media addiction, but if you're looking for indicators, this would be anything There's going to be a full scale, but it could be anything from um Like scrolling too often, which we hear all the time. Um, oh, I'm scrolling too much.
Or I, um, you can maybe retreat from of your, um, daily tasks to lay on the couch and scroll just for a little bit, but maybe for a little bit more. Um, it could be, you know, like you. You can't really go to the restroom without bringing your phone. You can't, run an errand without bringing your phone. Um, and maybe some people have phones without social media. So that's why it's, you got to think about your own situation.
Right.
and then it can get all the way to. know, retreating from personal relationships, prayer, your relationship with God in exchange for more time on social media. So what we're talking about is really just an increased use of social media that is somehow altering or even detrimental to relationships or activities in your life.
Yeah, and it seems like it's like, whether it's a passive or active choice to choose social media over other things more often. So I'm thinking to, um, to add to this list, like. How many times do you pick up your phone and maybe even open the app? I mean, we can talk about phone addiction one, but right now we're just focusing on social media addiction, but like, first of all, how many times are we picking up your phone? How many times are we opening the app? Are we doing it?
Like you said, every time I go to the bathroom or like anytime you're in a line or even like while you're driving and it's on a red light, are you picking up your phone to just be like, Oh, I just. I don't know like it's just like a natural reaction you have of like i'm waiting not doing anything for more than 10 seconds So are you picking up your phone to do that? um Yeah, if you're like if you live with roommates or if you are married and you have a husband or a spouse Like are you?
Using your phone and using social media while you're in the presence of community. Are you in the presence of your husband and you're just like naturally picking it up while you're at dinner or on the couch or in the car or whatever. You know what I mean? So those are the things that kind of came to mind as you were talking of just like, in what instances and how often are we choosing that over something else and kind of looking to like, why we both don't believe social media is bad. Right.
But it's like, okay. But like, why are we picking it? Do we have a reason to pick it up every time we're picking it up? And I know for myself times when I have fasted from social media, either like randomly or during Lent or something, and I haven't like deleted the app. It's like impossible. It's like, you don't realize how many times you pick it up. Just. Just to open the app and you're like, Oh, I'm supposed to be fasting from this. Like, why did I even open it? Like, why did I even open it?
It's like the fifth time that I've opened it and I'm like, supposed to be fasting from it. So it's really become a thing for a lot of us and ingrained habit, but we don't really have a why behind
Yeah. Part of my fear actually comes from. The Catholic social media world, which I do believe is overall doing good things, but, um, building that habit of continuing to open it and it's just kind of fine and it's okay. I opened it again, um, because what if you're opening it and in your newsfeed, it's a beautiful Catholic post and it's like scripture and it's the gospel or, um, Yeah, it's something inherently. And so we can kind of rationalize an addictive tendency it's Catholic. I'm
we're doing
content.
things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a great distinction to make. Cause it's like, Of course, like if you're going to be consuming something, yeah, like let's clean out the feed. Let's follow people that are actually sharing the gospel and inspiring you to live a Christ centered life. But like you're saying at the same time, that's not an excuse to, uh, overdo it and, you know, let go of moderation. Um, and you can say that for a lot of things too, but let's just be realistic.
Who do you, who do you feel like is actually struggling with social media overuse or addiction?
Yeah. So, um, anyone that's going to be an active social media user, I would say should have it on their radar. Because, um, I don't know if you have watched The Social Dilemma on Netflix, or, um, anyone listening, if they've seen it, one of my favorite movies. I think it's Very well done. Um, it's a documentary about the roots of social media, um, and the effects of social media.
And, um, you're hearing firsthand from the creators of these apps and major platforms, um, that they were created to. Use a piece of you like they are using the information that you give them, um, as even if that's something as simple as what clothing brand you would want to buy from, which isn't a bad thing. Um, but. I would say, like, anyone who's going to be on social media, these apps are created for addiction because it benefits them for you to use social media more frequently.
And so, um, they're often not going to be looking out for Your personal moderation, because if you're on Instagram longer, then they can feed you more ads and get more money ultimately. So, anyone who is on social media should be looking for it, but I would say, um, Gen Z, which, um, according to Pew Research is going to be starting at 1997 and younger as far as a birth year definitely going to be Kind of in danger because we're full digital natives, uh,
Yeah,
an extent, a lot of millennials still were kind of in that introducing, um, timeframe of technology, but that's what I would say, which is really to have the answer of everyone. Um, and
everyone.
everyone, everyone, but, um, just knowing, I think. What comes with other vice and other sin is saying, like, that could never be me, you know, I could never do something, um, like that, or I would never take part in that sin and not realizing that we are fallen humans and, you know, We are capable of any sin, but by God's grace, that's how we deter away from them. So, um, if you're on social media, look out for him.
Yeah, for sure. Can you share maybe from your own life? I feel like you shared a bit about this when you first started, um, just opening up the conversation about social media addiction online. Like what were some of the things you noticed in your own life that were kind of tipping you off to like, Oh, this is like actually going in an addictive pattern right now.
I think the big indicator was I was choosing social media over. An activity in my life that actually brought me joy. I'm not talking about sitting on a stoplight or waiting in line where it's like, objectively, I would being on my phone more than waiting in a line. Um, that's okay because that's my, you know, boredom. Um, but I'm talking about.
Things that I loved doing, maybe like, um, doing photography, or going to a coffee shop and reading, or Um, writing something in my journal, going to the chapel. Things that I liked doing when I started preferring media use and scrolling over those when I was like, is not right. Because I love these things. I love, uh, being with my family, um, visiting my Newman center, shopping. Why? I'm choosing social media over that.
Um, and so that really brought a lot of fear into my heart of like, this is always isolating me, which, um, in a lot of ways I've made many friendships, relationships, connections, joyful, good things from social media. And so that's the hard part because it can be. Really good and really beautiful when it's used moderately. Um,
Yeah. The key here is moderation, which we'll get into in a little bit, but
yes.
sharing. I feel like I remember, um, you sharing too, which I related to that, like when you were in the chapel praying, you almost had like the like real sounds like playing in your head as you were praying. And it was like distracting to prayer. Cause you're like, all I can think about is like this freaking trending sound that keeps popping up my feed. And when you said that, I was like, Oh wow. I feel like I can relate to that,
Yep.
which just shows like the linger. The lingering of it I know and it's like that's kind of hard to control sometimes too because the songs are catchy I'm, like I've got this like
Yeah.
page of dr. B in my head like over and over again right now It's whatever this trending sound right now. Really?
Yes.
gonna
Yeah. With
just Same
So, but I mean. It's tricky because, you know, I'm a new mom and the only thing that calms down our baby boy is the song Edelweiss from The Sound of Music. And it is a short song with very few words, and so we're singing that daily over and over. That gets stuck in my head. So it's like It's, it's also a human thing and just our brains that things are going to get stuck in our head.
But there's a difference like that got stuck in my head because I was caring for my son and trying to console him with a song versus, um, scrolling 20 times and I'm seeing that audio over and over and over, um, and I'm not getting off of social media and so it's in my head, does that make sense? There
Yeah,
difference. It's
totally. I
head.
want to circle back to the conversation of, uh, the Catholic social media world that we touched on a little bit. Um, we both, like we said earlier, see so much goodness in beauty and power in evangelizing through social media as that's where our generation is at. But I want to talk a little bit about like, what are the ways that we feel like It's helpful. What are the ways that maybe the way we're using social media makes this world harmful? How can we be aware of that?
How can we make sure that like we're approaching this, um, maybe as creators, like in a healthy way. And then as, as users, as people consuming the content on the other side, which I'm sure is the majority of listeners, um, how can we consume this in a healthy way?
Yes, I think there are a lot of helpful things about social media and we can list off a million because the church has urged us into this new evangelization and that includes in the digital world. Like we go, the church has always gone where. Her people are, and so we will go to Instagram. I will go to Instagram and evangelize if people are there and they are. Um, I think on Pew research, it says 69 percent of adults and 81 percent of teens are social media users.
So it's continuing, continuing to climb and, um, we really want to meet them where they are. And so in that way. Social media is so helpful because you think of conference. We were both just at the national Eucharistic Congress. Um, what if, you know, monstrance was in their explore page, a user's explore page that has never seen a monstrance. They have no idea what that is. don't know who Jesus is and they see it for the first time. That was a way that God could.
of come into their life, but it has to be that starting point that would launch into in person incarnational relationship because Jesus if social media was necessary for a relationship with Christ or Necessary for evangelization, then he would have come with a smartphone. Do you know what I mean? And like he would have come with a Facebook page
You're right. I've never thought about it that way. Yeah,
have come verified. He would have had the blue check and he
he was the biggest influencer. He was, but
Exactly. Yes. so that tells us that it's not necessary. What Jesus did use were new words, new teachings that linked back to the old Testament. He presented teachings in new ways that we could understand. He loved people in a very different. Culturally groundbreaking way. um, used new means of evangelization. And so that's why the church says technology is a tool that we can use. But like you said, in the beginning of the podcast, um, the, the hard work is to.
Render technology to our, uh, use and to use it as a tool so that we aren't Have you seen, um, the social dilemma,
I actually haven't when it came out, I was like, I'm too scared. Like I had, this is going to make me get off my phone. And I was like, I can't, I, I literally haven't seen it.
my gosh. Okay. There's a beautiful quote, beautiful. LOL. a helpful quote, um, in the movie. I forget who it's attributed to, but it says, um, The only two types of goods that consider their, um, audience to be users are the drug industry and the social media industry. No one else is a user. Like, and so even that language is going to indicate The fact that, like, we are being taken advantage of to some extent. Our time is what social media is buying and taking from us and using of us.
and our attention. Our time and attention. Um, you have to watch this movie. It's so good, Mari.
And now I'm like, I gotta watch it.
You do. With Trey. Do it with Trey. It'll be great.
I will. And one thing I was going to say too, is we can probably both say a little bit about this too, if you feel like you want to say anything, but I feel like for Catholic content creators, like our purpose and our, uh, like driving force behind what we're doing is to help people have, like you said, an in person experience with Jesus. Like my hope that this is like a practical way you can use it. Like my hope is that like, you'll see.
A post in the Catholic Instagram world that will linger with you and inspire you to go sit in prayer and be like, okay, Lord, like, what are you, what do you want to say about this? Like, why did this linger in my heart? Why did this, you know, post about suffering or joy or the Eucharist or Mary's motherhood or whatever it is that, you know, the post is about, like, why did it linger? What are you trying to draw me into?
And like, take it to your spiritual life and let it bear fruit in your spiritual life instead of letting it be like any other trend that you're seeing where you just scroll past it and look to the next thing. Um, so I think like we desire it to have a little bit more intentionality for a reason to make you stop, to make you wonder, and in hopes that you can draw something from it. To the chapel and then let it bear fruit in your heart instead of just let it slide through like any other post
Right, and that is a beautiful hope, and one that I, I personally hope every creator has. And that's where it gets tricky, is that, You can't be responsible for your followers vices or what they're going to do with your content. They, there's this individual responsibility to practice moderation, that's the other thing, like, we think about, West Coast Catholic in your store, your intention with that is to share the gospel in a tangible way to bring these beautiful sacramentals into the home.
However, maybe someone could see your store and use it as a lack of prudence or over consumption. They're buying too much or they're not buying and gifting like everything is for them. They're hoarding. So, But you didn't create the shop with that intention. So that's the same thing with creatives too. Like, we can create this content in hopes that people will take it to prayer. And I do trust that a lot do. But how many times have you found that?
a recipe and you hit the little bookmark and you save it and you've never looked at it
Okay, call me out, girl.
And myself, I've so much, I have a whole cookbook in my saved post
Oh, same.
together. You know what I mean though? So it's like we can have that intention, but social media, there's a new thing the next day. So like, why do we need what we saw yesterday?
Uh huh.
Um, slippery is that, you have to have that personal responsibility. It's not, you know, this creator's fault that someone is overconsuming social media, but the creator, in my opinion, ought to have intentionality and prayer behind what they're doing so that they are not just creating in order to hook someone.
Absolutely. I think that's so necessary. Um, especially when we're using it as a tool to evangelize. We want it to be the Lord's words and His mission, not bringing glory to us. Um, okay. Let's try A little bit about let's chat a little bit about, um, if, yeah, if we are using social media poorly, like, some of these effects, um, it can affect our health, our anxiety, depression, self esteem. I think a lot of us have experienced that to an extent in some way, given, like you said, we.
Kind of are the generation that grew up in this digital age and people younger than us even more. So I didn't have Instagram or, you know, a smartphone till I was 15, but, um, that's still pretty young. And I know a lot of people who. I mean, yeah, started when we were in like fifth or sixth grade. So it's been around at this point for most of our lives for people that are listening probably. So what can some of those effects look like?
Um, how can we kind of keep an eye out for if it's affecting us in that way?
So there was a 2018 British study that came out, and this is from McLean Hospital. I did not do that on purpose. I really didn't. And it's not spelled the same way as my name, but, um, they tied social media use to decreased um, worse sleep, delayed sleep, everything around sleep, which we know we've heard with the screens and the blue light and all of that. That is just going to be that snowball effect that's ultimately going to lead to anxiety, depression, uh, potentially.
Yeah. Yeah.
is going to, like, you know this too, when we throw off our mental health. Um, that can affect our gut and then our gut health can affect our mental health. And so it's just like this endless cycle that, um, I think is pretty insidious. And so we maybe see these effects and we think, Oh, it's probably my diet. Okay. And then we don't change our social media use or like, well, I didn't work out enough, so I wasn't tired enough.
And that's why I didn't get to fall asleep soon, soon enough in the night. Um, I'm just going to scroll what we, we try to, um, of come up with. And of course both could be problems in our personal health, but, um, social media, yeah, it can really affect. Our physical health, which then is going to tumble into our mental health. that would be my initial read. But then, um, course we can get into what each individual is kind of telling themselves as they scroll on social media.
So whether that's like seeing ballerina farm and it's like, I'm never going to find. I, what if I can't have Children? What if I don't make enough as that family makes? Am I going to be happy? So then we can get into the mental spiral of, um, what seeing social media does to our personal thoughts and our personal value,
Yeah. And I think it's good to remember that we're All body mind and soul. And you kind of touched on this without explicitly saying that, like, they're not separate entities that do that are, that are just like isolated from each other, everything we do body, mind, soul somehow informs the other and affects the other. And so I know that like maybe when I was in college. Before I was a missionary, this is something I learned like as a missionary in college.
I was like, yeah, like the things that I consume, the things that I watch, like don't actually affect me because like, I'm stronger than that. Like I can be on social media. I can follow all types of people on social media, like all types of account. It doesn't matter. I can watch anything because like, I'm a good Catholic and like, it's just I know how to not let it affect me and that's just naive and that's just not true. Right.
And you start to see how the things you see on social media or on TV or whatever the people you follow, um, how I feel like what I was noticing, like how it informed my thoughts started to teach me. Yeah, no, actually it, it clearly did affect my mind, which then can affect the desires of my soul, which can affect how I'm living physically in the world and affect my body. Um, and so keeping that in mind too, that like, it's all, it's all interconnected and, um, we can't kid ourselves.
It's not going to affect another part of our life.
right? No, I think that's where. Um, is going to creep in and not to over spiritualize, but, and you could, maybe we could just say our littleness is going to creep in of like. It's really not a big deal this is like the largest the the Technological change in history. It just completely spiked when we hit that 21st century There was an unprecedented technological advance that happened. And so it is important. know this will affect my life.
This will affect my relationship with God and my Catholic identity. I think you were asking like, how does poor use of social media affect our mental health? What about like our health as a Catholic? Like. media and Catholic social media, we cannot say is for everyone. We cannot say you should be there. You have to be on it. Like that's where you need to be. No, no, no. There are some people who I definitely feel like should be on it and should be consuming and creating it.
Um, but it's not for everyone or else monks would be way out of whack and not on it Okay, think of, the social media or just Instagram realm as this like digital diocese that has no one really like in charge. There's no like bishop of the digital world, you know what I mean? No
Wow.
calling the shots, keeping people in line with church teaching and fact checking things according to the catechism. It is free reign. And so,
Yeah.
Catholic on social media, you're going to be getting content about that. everything Catholic. And some of those things might be false, not on purpose, but we're not church fathers, we're not theologians. We're doing our best and like sharing our testimony. Um, but some people will take things as writing. Mari is Catholic. And so what she said about this topic is what
Sure.
believes,
Uh huh.
which is where it can get really tricky. Yes.
which I like that you brought that up because as a consumer, hopefully that like opens our eyes a little bit more to use the Catholic social media well, which we'll get into in a second where it's like, okay, I can draw inspiration from these creators. I can learn from their testimonies, but like, get to know your own faith. Don't allow like the creator to become the catechism. You know what I mean? Like the creator. Isn't the church teaching isn't like the law isn't the catechism.
They might have drawn from it. We hope so. But at the same time, like form your own soul, form your own mind and your faith and let that be the starting point that inspires it. But don't let it be the end. Don't let it be like the resource you're drawing from. Um, yeah, so great.
Yeah, love it.
Well, it's a great point.
Yeah.
Um, how let's turn the narrative around. Let's talk about like, how can someone have a better relationship with social media? We've all experienced these negative effects. And like you said, social media might be great for some, some might recognize, like, it's actually not good for my life, but I think there's a happy medium for a lot of us where like, we can learn to use it well as a tool. We can learn to grow in moderation. Um, how Can someone have a better relationship with social media?
What are some healthy habits, some healthy boundaries that individuals can implement, uh, with social media?
Making intentional decisions. Like, when you are making a decision, having, having that conscious choice behind it, and knowing, okay, I am, I am choosing the, I don't know, the Ollipop instead of the Diet Coke because there's no aspartame in it. Um, like, we're doing that intentionally. Um, and so the same can go with social media. So, when we feel more, um, in tune and in control of our use of social media, that's when it can really flourish.
there are a million ways to have a good relationship with social media. That's the cool thing. You can invite Jesus into it and say, I really don't want to scroll for too long. Could you please, like, I don't know, bring someone into my life that'll help me live more presently. Could you, um, like bring me into more habits and then something, not just waiting for God to, you know, do it for you, but, I would say my first thing is going to be going to confession. I think a lot of.
examinations need to start including overuse of media. Whether that's YouTube and it's like, okay, well I'm Facebook. Watching YouTube for hours and hours or having it on your entire workday. You have that autoplay on and it's always in the background. need to start confessing to it's like split, um, attention or really not being present to the tasks that we've been given by God, um, or overuse or addiction of social media. Confess it in the confessional, ask your priest, what can I do?
And overall, when you're going to be growing in virtue. This is going to be not as big of an issue because you're getting closer to Christ. And so that should also affect any other like addictive tendencies or habitual vice you, um, see in yourself. So it, pray about it. Um, receive from your Bible before you're receiving from Catholic Instagram. up a Bible first. This is so hard for me. Um, with like nursing, it's so much easier for me to have one hand than two.
And that's the first thing that I do when I wake up. And so, um, yeah, receiving from God, the Eucharist, Jesus, the mass, the physical, tangible sacramentals are infinitely better than any photo of. That's sacramental or a recounting of a mass experience. And so receiving from the incarnate God first, then going to social media. Um, I think, yeah, we talked about a detox.
If there are people that you don't, that you know, like you tend to scroll a lot on their page, or you're really intrigued with them in an unhealthy way, or in a way that. start to tell yourself negative things about your life. Um, stop following them. Doesn't matter if it's a friend or an influencer, stop following them. It's not a big deal. Um, I think, uh, a couple apps that are in place, there's one called clear space, which, um, helps you with time limits and intentionality.
Um, there are the. In system, um, time, time restrictions that you can like put the iPhone itself has,
Yeah.
the time limits, and make sure you don't override them. I have an hour time limit on my Instagram my husband set my passcode. still, to this day, do not know that passcode. So I have to go to him, a physical person and say, Hey, I did run out of time. I did want to post this one more thing, or maybe I ran out of time because I was editing this reel for about 20 minutes on Instagram. you put like 10 more minutes on it?
And so you're interacting with someone who has your sainthood in mind, whether that's a friend, family member, spouse. Um, yeah, those are the first that come to mind. Watch the social dilemma. Like you, it's not necessary. I won't say it's necessary. But in some way researching what social media does to people, because it's different from any other form of technology where like the book is a form of technology. It made information easier to access.
And I, I know that the book, when it was introduced and written word was like, Oh my gosh, people are going to be have their heads in books. And they're not going to be interacting with society. Compared to now, it's like, my gosh, a book is so holy. Like you're reading a book that is amazing. Um, so if we don't see, um, and become sober and awake to the effects of social media, then it's going to be a lot easier to just brush it off as what society does.
And we all just scroll while we're with each other now. So let's keep doing it.
Yeah.
So I hope those are helpful.
They were, yeah, I think what I really love that you said were kind of like, sometimes we, like I said, we need to like, just not be naive about where we're at and like, not kid ourselves and like those, like, physical blockers, like are good, like, to actually like, put. A time limit on your phone. And if you need someone to hold you accountable and have a passcode, great. That's what makes it easy.
You know, like I said earlier about like, if I've given up social media for lunch or if I'm fasting for it, like I'll, I'll often just leave the app there. Cause I'm like, Oh, it's fine. I won't open it. But it's like, clearly. We're not at that place yet. Clearly like we need the extra step of removing the app of setting a time limit of having accountability with a friend or a spouse. Um, and that's okay. I wouldn't say that's something to feel bad about.
It's like, we're all, we all were kind of just like put in this situation because this is the time we grew up in. And so, um, I wouldn't say like it's necessarily our fault that we got here, but it is our responsibility to acknowledge like anything in our life that we aren't using in moderation because we're all trying to live Christ centered lives. And so this goes for anything that you feel like is becoming a vice of some sort. Like it's okay to have really strong boundaries.
It's okay to have accountability and have a friend kind of walk with you in that. And it's really good. Um, the other thing I was going to say too, that I find helpful is kind of having a standard in your life. This is what I try to do of like, I won't pick up my phone first thing in the morning and it won't be like the last thing that I see when I go to bed
Yeah.
that having that mentality every day. Helps you realize how much you reach for it and kind of helps you have kind of like that self check of like Why am I rolling over and grabbing this? Okay, maybe like let's not sleep with our phone next to our head Which already is pretty bad for you.
So like let's put it on the other side outside the room, you know And then just doing that makes it so it's also not the last thing you do before bed and we're not stuck in like a scroll before bed and having blue light affect our circadian rhythm and Hormones and other things. Um, and so replace that with a short prayer. Like when you get up, instead of reaching for your phone, have that initial like desire to reach now that you've heard this, hopefully you can't forget it.
Um, you just remember like, Okay. I'm reaching for something. Like, let me reach for the Lord. And it doesn't have to be a big 30 minute prayer time. Like just let it be like a quick morning offering of like, Lord, thank you for the rest that you gave me. Like I give this day to you. I entrust it to you. And like, may your will be done. And before you go to bed, instead of like falling asleep as you're scrolling, like.
If you feel like you need to reach for something again, reach for the Lord, give him thanks for the day and ask for good rest. Um, and so I feel like that's a good standard. I will say, I feel like we should all have, we should all work towards having the Lord, um, have our first and last moments of the day instead of our device.
Absolutely. Yeah. Because imagine if, if we see ourselves as, Catholic creators or, um, consumers on social media, the disciples going out kind of before they chatted with Jesus as they were camping and traveling together. they just like went and evangelized and came back and were like, Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that you were here, Jesus. Like, I just did all this stuff for you. And he's like, why weren't you with me? You know what I mean? So can, we can do that same thing.
Like we go out and we're doing, doing, doing, and we create so much for Jesus and do not even rest with him in any way. So that you added that.
Yeah. Um, last thing you did mention the examination of, or no, you mentioned bringing this into confession and I know you made an examination of conscience for media use, um, a few years ago. Tell us more about that.
Yes. So I created this with, um, a friend Mackenzie, who, was a missionary at the same time as I was, and we were talking about this topic a lot and it was really. You've alluded to this, but we are really trailblazing. We think, okay, social media has been around for a minute, but I mean, 20 years is really not where everyone is trailblazing. Everyone's figuring out what media does.
We can see some of the effects, but nothing like What we see to be the effect of the television, which was introduced longer ago. So we're still learning a lot of things. so we're talking about that and, um, we desire to have, um, a very deep, detailed examine about social media. And so it's in three parts. Um, because there are different questions that creatives creators should be asking.
So people who are putting out content, people who are consuming content, then everyone who is just kind of, Using and on social media in any generic way. Um, because they do overlap and, um, pretty much all creators are going to be consumers, but not all consumers will be creating. So, um, there are many questions. It's pinned onto my Instagram profile, a Catholic combo. It's the first post and, um, it's pretty vintage. Like it w we made it a little bit ago.
Um, But it has been super helpful for so many people to ask themselves questions and to ask Jesus questions that they've never considered media, even coming into the realm of or affecting. So. Um, yeah, hopefully it's just a good tool that you can use and, um, share it with whoever you want. Um, it should be really helpful.
Yeah, I'm going to go back and read it because it's so good. Okay. Anything else that you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up?
Um, I think, I think sometimes when I, I love, love, love talking about this topic, like if I were to write a book, it would be about this topic because it is so important to me. And especially now that I'm raising. I just think about where social media will be when he starts using it. Um, and so I think sometimes it can feel like, oh, it's a ton of, you know, boomers and millennials that are anti social media and they want the kids to get off their phones and all this stuff.
there is a huge movement in Gen Z. Um, the log off movement also is one that I wanted to mention. Of people and young adults in our generation, realizing that they want the incarnate experience. And even if it's Catholic, we're not even talking about that. are recognizing this is not. As fruitful and as joyful as the influencer experiencing it in real time of what I'm looking at on social media. Does that make sense?
Yeah, like living through the influencer you love to follow versus actually living life yourself.
Exactly. Yep. And so I am perfectly content being the annoying, uh, like old Gen Z. I am the oldest Gen Zer that exists because I'm born in 97. Um, I'm content being that person and saying, Hey, this is going to affect us for generations, what if we just did it a little more intentionally and also there can be so much good that comes from it.
So I don't want it to sound like this doom and gloom message of social media, but I do think that we're not super, um, awake to what happen with social media if we're striving for sainthood, then. Knowing that information, I do find it our responsibility and duty to help people get to heaven and therefore bringing up things that are roadblocks to that, into that relationship with Christ. And this is a huge one. That's very.
Slight and very, um, sneaky because it doesn't feel bad, especially when you're only consuming Catholic content. So, just maybe asking yourself, like, if you feel, uh, You know, more joyful or more known and seen, um, creating or consuming Catholic content online than you do in person, because the minute that we lose our love and adoration for the mass and for that, Repetition over and over ever ancient, ever new experience.
Um, and we prefer graphics every day of scripture and here's a new monstrance and here's a new video and dah, dah, dah, dah, that Catholicism. Then we're really in a deep and we need Jesus to completely destroy like that desire that we have to see him digitally versus person. So, um, there's a lot to chew on, but. I love social media.
Ends with I love social media. And you know, that's just the essence of this whole conversation. It's a very powerful conversation. One that I think not many people are having. And so I'm glad that we are having it. It needs to be had. Um, it's. Almost just like you, you can tell me really mean it because like, we're both content creators on Instagram and like generally a content creator probably wouldn't tell you get off your phone, right?
Like they would want you to consume their stuff, but we genuinely care about your statehood and your relationship with Christ. And that comes before anything you consume on Instagram, even if it's Catholic. So ultimately I think what we want people to walk away with is like, yes, social media inherently, like, doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's kind of like the way we are using it. Is it using us? Are we using it?
How can we learn to really like render it as a tool in our life and let it go and let it be what it is. It's just an app on our phone. Like it doesn't have to be more than that. We don't have to make it more than it really is. So hopefully this is an invitation for you. For all of us to really rearrange our relationship with social media, hopefully, and build some health, healthier habits and allow it to be the good tool and place of connection that we have experienced it to be at times.
Um, and that I think that it can truly has the power to be. Um, so before we close out, uh, where can our listeners learn more about you?
Um, definitely on Instagram. My handle is a Catholic Convo um, That's pretty much it. My, my website is a little bit of a museum, so you can find a couple blog posts on there, but I'm really focused on my motherhood, uh, in this season. So find me on Instagram. I'll chat with you about social media anytime. Um, send me any voice memos or questions that you have in my DMs, and I would love to hear from you. Speak into more of this topic if you want.
Yes. Oh, well, so good. Thank you, Matt, for coming on today. It was so good to have you.
Thanks Mari.