Ep 19: Kim Barthel - Relationship Matters

Welcome to Equine Assisted World. I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field.

You've got it, it's Barthel.

From Canada. And the reason we've got Kim on today is because our great friend, who's also going to come on here, Lianna Tank, who's one of the most interesting human beings on the planet, basically. And I'm going to get her on here for her own interview soon to do with her work with the most intense populations of the criminally insane and how she is working neurobiology, neuroscience and horses and all of that into that.

This is a podcast, so you can't see me smiling, but it's big from one ear to the other. And thank you for inviting me to have this conversation with you.

I have

known, I have known about you a very long time. Well,

that sounds ominous.

In a very positive way, of course, because of the famous horse boy movie and my work in the field of special needs, neurodiversity, autism for this is year number four zero. That makes me feel a bit. Nauseous, but that's when you

don't look a day over 12. So you

bless you. Bless you. So I I'm an occupational therapist historically with many things that came after a specialty in neuroscience, neurobiology sensory processing and movement and ended up working in the field of trauma for most of my career. Sort of with deep love, passion and unexpectedly.

So more trauma was a thing, right?

Yeah. Before trauma was a thing, you know, before it was a thing. And so, putting those pieces together is what I'm interested in. The mind, body, spirit way of thinking of human experience. The name of our company is called Relationship Matters. And so, the tagline, the mission of our company is to support the conscious evolution of the human spirit. and how that fits into the realm of how people can become their best self.

Now, you, in our little preamble, said you are let's see if I get this right, a neurodevelopmental treatment instructor.

You got it. What is that? Good, good question. Well, you know, in our, Rehab fields of physical therapy, occupational therapy. There are lots of theories, frames of reference, for how to support people in becoming better at moving their bodies. And neurodevelopmental treatment was developed in the fifties by a lady named Mrs. Berta Bobath right after World War, well, World War II, after World War II, because rehab in that era was not really very clued in yet to the brain.

Right.

And how to change motor system, stroke, cerebral palsy kids with spina bifida. This was very new, polio in that, in that era. And Mrs. Bobath. She learned through her own intuition, as you know, most magical, amazing things are often, I think, intuitively channeled. This came from her, and she was a sculptor. And through putting her hands on people's bodies, she helped them learn to bring online The muscles that were unaccessible, inaccessible, and to quieten the ones that were working too hard.

Okay. What got you attracted to this?

Kind of serendipitously, really, because when I first graduated from university, my love was the sensory systems. And I went to study with Dr. Jean Ayers.

Why? Why was it the sensory system to your first love?

I don't know. You know how sometimes You just know you know something.

And it's

like I've been doing this.

Did you have sensory issues yourself?

Not, not, well, not really. Not, not in the way that you think about it.

Were you surrounded by people that did?

I, I really yes. I was exposed to, to children with neurodiversity as a child. And I wanted to. And

how come? How come? Because a lot of people were not back then. That there was a lot of separation.

I don't, I don't know that I can answer that question to you. I think. They were in your

school, they were in your family, they were in your groups. No, just,

Sort of, an exposure. And I guess a personality quality of mine is I want to do, I have a deep desire to do something meaningful and also different. So occupational therapy is a, and was in the 80s, something that people didn't have a clue. What it, what it was. And when I started in my path of university, this theory of sensory integration for kids with autism was so fascinating to me because it was so mysterious.

What I find intriguing is that in the 80s. Obviously through the 90s and early 2000s, the, the main way of looking at autism treatments was through behavior, behavioral, you know, ABA and so on. And we're still battling with that to some degree in the USA, even though in other parts of the world, it's, thank God, you know, being consigned to history. How come you weren't drawn to that? Because that was the prevalent thing. And why to the sensory integration? And did you face opposition?

Big time. I think that the behavioral approach never resonated with me. And, and I guess that

Why was that?

Well, I guess that spiritual component that I'm talking about over and over again here was just in my fabric. And I don't talk about, I don't mean religious, I mean the compassionate state of human behavior. It just was. Who I was, and none of that ever felt right. And Dr. Ayers was all about child, the child guides treatment.

Interesting.

Child centered practice.

And this is back in the In the

80s. Yeah,

because you know, you know, our ethos with movement method is follow the child. Right. And I, but I was given that by Dr. Temple Grandin, who was of course given that by her mother. So you could argue that movement method is really a result of mentorship from Temple Grandin's mother. But even when I was trying to follow that advice in the early days. In the. You know, early 2000s. My God, was the opposition vicious. You must have felt, you must have faced a fair amount of

I'm

smiling

because Temple Grandin is a commonality between us.

Okay.

At my very first conference, I was 20, at the Ayers Clinic, I was introduced to Temple Grandin. So in a sense, Dr. Ayers gave her to me as my practicum.

Interesting.

And Temple was developing her hug machine at the time. And she gave me the inside experience of what it was like to live in a body that processed differently. And she could put words to it. And so I have known her 40 years, and she was a profound influence on this idea of being with people where they are.

What was, if you could say in one line, what she told you that resonated in words, what did she say?

Well, it's really actually not what she said specifically as in one thing, it's how she would give me feedback. So for example, she may not remember this, and she might hope she giggles if she does. She said to me, Kim, why are you, I had a sweater on, why are you wearing a carpet? And I, I, of course, had no knowledge about anything. But that's not fair

because she wears sweaters. She knows what a sweater

is. But it was the nature of the quality of the fuzz, right? And she said, I, that, that, and then she went on to describe how that hurt to look at it.

Interesting.

And just the

texture of the

texture

of that sweater

sweater. Yeah, like

note to self in September when I'm going to be hanging out with no sweater.

Right.

Yes.

And then she said something to me like, stop moving your lips I'm trying to listen to you. And I was like, I don't know if I can do that. Because she was working hard on processing my speech and my face at the same time.

Okay. And those,

those are the things that had deep profound impact for endlessly for the future.

Yeah, I can see that. I could see that, you know, one of the things we never do is demand any kind of eye contact, right? We could, we say, you know, if they look at you, great. If they don't be interesting, they might, but if they're not looking at you, they're probably taking in what you're saying in the same way that if someone's listening to this podcast while driving a car, they don't need to look at us for sure, taking what you're saying, right?

I mean, that's in fact what I did. And so I think this idea, you know, we talked today about the neurodiverse affirming movement. I think I've been living that for my whole career of not trying to get people to be what I want them to be, but to how I can be with them. And that's what I think she taught me in that conversation.

Brilliant. I would love to get together over a bottle of wine with you two. I will probably be the only one drinking the wine, but it'll certainly help my, lubricate my understanding.

But you asked me also, how did I get to movement? Yes. Wine. So, so Dr. Ayers looked at me one day, who I, who to me was like, I couldn't think of anyone that was more important. Brilliant. As a mentor,

she

said, Kim, you've got to go learn about the body. And I was like, okay, I'm like 21 years old and I don't know anything from anything. And I said, okay, I'll go do that. What does that mean? And she said, well, I think that neurodevelopmental treatment, go and study with Mrs. Bobath in London, the UK, you got to go do that. And I was like, okay. So I tripped off to take what we call an eight week certification course. With Mrs. Bobath, and

That's such a great name, Bobath.

It is, isn't it? And that was the beginning of that, that part of the collective thought process. And I think that, you know, one of the reasons that she asked me, Dr. Ayers, reflectively, Dr. Ayers passed away, so I never had a chance to ask her why. Why me and why that? But it, with reflection, I think it was about how sensation impacts and connects to the body in movement, which was not part yet of the fully developed, fully baked theory of SI at that time.

SI being? Sensory Intervention. Sensory Intervention. Okay.

Yeah.

And were you yourself someone who who moved a lot? Are you still now someone who moves a lot?

That's such a good question. Honestly, no.

Okay. Interesting. And I

think, I think that also, I mean, I was a dancer.

Well, then yes.

And I never felt good enough.

You're like a classical dancer, like ballet.

Classical dancer, yeah.

Ah, that's the problem. Perfectionism. It's just like dressage. Yeah. It's it's ayanga yoga. You know, I mean, when we go for perfectionism, we just kill the joy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. There was. And so my love of movement was, yeah, dampened by the experience of not ever feeling good enough. And I was shocked when Mrs. Bobath said, I think you need to teach this because never did I think that I would be skilled enough to do that. So, You'd

given up on dance. Early, like in childhood or in your teen?

Seventeen, seventeen. I don't think of that as so early, I did it, took, you know, classical dance for seventeen

years. And was it, was it a great love, classical dance, or actually was it just something that you were made to do and you actually liked to move in every way?

No one's ever asked me these questions before. Good for you. It's a combination, it was intermittent, you know, there was times of great love and then times of. I can't stop this because I'm, I'm, I'm in, I'm in the flow of it feeling like there's some need to complete something.

I am in blood steeped so far that to turn back was tedious as to go that's Macbeth. He said when he feels he can't stop because the momentum is taking him. No, I, I know exactly what that feels. And, and one was often made to feel that way, of course, by family. Yes. Mentors, you know. Did it break your heart?

Did it break my heart? I think I'm still working on it.

Yeah.

And I think that the lingering feeling of not good enough has been both a gift and a curse.

Right. And because of course the cold hard fact is that even the ballet dancers that make it, make it, make it, never feel good enough. Yes. And the axe to the chest that you've just described. of course, allowed you to view the world compassionately. But it's a rough go. It would be nice if kids didn't have to go through that in order to.

Exactly. And I think, you know, the gift of knowing Movement from the inside, and then also witnessing or experiencing people who struggle

to

move, It just gave me a sense of embodied understanding, meaning I can feel movement. As I watch movement.

That's interesting.

And without that experience, I don't think I would have that in me.

It's a really interesting thing. If movement's ever been taken away, and I know a lot of people listening to this would've been in situations, so movement has been taken away either permanently or temporarily. But for example, I smashed up both legs once and you know, I was parked on the couch for a long time, and the appreciation of being able to like get up and go to have a pee.

Totally.

And I think that's something we can all relate to. So listen, you said that I actually thought that you were not a horse person. I was thinking, okay, I'm just going to be putting this one up there for the horse. crazies amongst us, which include me to remind us that we should, you know, learn our neuroscience and all of this. But it turns out you actually do have a background with equine therapy.

Sure. My connection to the horse world didn't come because of a love of horses. It actually came from a love of movement and seeing the horse. as an offering for enhancement of movement experience for kids that, especially children, who had quite limited mobility, cerebral palsy, and the whole opportunity for weight shift, movement through space experiencing connection with a being that allowed them to feel, felt, this was my draw.

And to be moved, to be moved by something, giving you, lending you its power, right?

Yes. And, and, and very quickly it was obvious to me that this was a relational experience.

When did you get involved in therapy, therapeutic writing and how?

So I lived in a place called Winnipeg. Canada, and we had a startup therapeutic riding process that was one woman who wanted to use her horses for the purpose of. Supporting kids with disability,

and this is when

it would have been in the early 90s.

And up until then, there was nothing that

there was nothing, especially where I was living. I mean, I'm, I know that it existed before that, but not in the area where I was. And given my appreciation and understanding of movement and sensation in this way, this organization sought me out and said, can you come and help us understand what we might do on the horse? I

see. So they, they contacted you as a consultant?

Yes. And what

did you show them? What did you suggest?

Well, I'll never forget the first time I went. And we did back riding, meaning I was actually sitting on the horse with the child.

Okay. Even though you're a rider?

Yes.

So they'd obviously produce a nice safe horse underneath you, right?

Definitely. Definitely. And this experience for me was necessary

because

not only was I feeling the movement of the child in front of me, but I was simultaneously experiencing the movement of the horse.

Fantastic.

And so there was this, I think, I know you know exactly what I'm talking about, you know, sitting there with your child and feeling them while feeling the movement through yourself. And this was what helped me figure out, so to speak, that word is too literal, how we might use saddles. in different ways. What could be done on a horse in a back riding situation, which I don't think is as common today.

No, I'd say the horse boy, us, we're one of the only people that do it.

Yeah. I don't know if it's good for the horse. I don't know.

It is if you make the back very strong. Because the entire culture of Asia, Northern Asia, and most of the Americas would be all killing their horses if it wasn't, because that's how all their kids grow up, because they actually use horses for transport. So it's a interesting, rather racist viewpoint that a lot of Western horse people have, is that this must be bad for the horse. But where they're, where they're, It writes off all those cultures immediately.

Very good. And so, you know, we also looked at changes in direction, reach into space, games, as you talked about earlier, what, what kind of stop, start, reach and throw. These were very early activities that we thought of to engage kids in moving their bodies in ways that they couldn't do sitting in a wheelchair or on the floor.

Tell us those of us who Don't know in neuroscience. What do those activities do for the brain?

Okay, deep breath, where do we start? What's so interesting about that question is what I know today versus what I knew then. Because our understanding of neuroscience today is so vastly different compared to the day of the 90s where we, you know, we're beginning to understand the concepts of neuroplasticity.

It was a new word then.

It was a big new word and, and really the foundation of change, the potential for the brain to heal itself. Because prior to that time, it was believed that was not possible.

Right. I mean, it's not that long ago that even in mainstream neuroscience, the doctrine was the brain is hardwired at five. We now know that's so not true, but it was orthodox for a while. Yeah.

Yes. And so the You know, the idea of neurodevelopmental treatment was even founded on this premise that there is learning happening all the time. And I don't just mean learning as in practical skills, but learning at a cellular level. And you know, it's funny you use the word, it's slime mold. I often give the description of, I was working in the neuroscience lab, looking at a paramecium in a Petri dish.

What's a paramecium, for those of us that don't know? It's

a single cell, and it has a brain in its membrane, and it knows where to swim and where not to swim, dependent on what's in the environment. And when you drop in a toxin into the petri dish, that, that cell will not move in that direction again. And this is the premise of rehab, is, or, or, never mind rehab, that sounds like, Because for many kids, it's not rehabilitation, it's habilitation. You know, their bodies never had those experiences.

Procreception.

Yep. In, in pteroception. This is me, this is not me. That all of these experiences that the horse offers integrates the brain. In, in a way that allows circuits to wire together, that they may not have an opportunity to do in a different environment.

And again, for those people for whom neuroscience is something new, why is that a good thing?

Oh, why is it a good thing? First of all, one of the greatest challenges that is so poorly understood is that my sense of self, me or me in relationship to other, means that The sensory experiences that I'm taking in have to be felt by me as me. Gosh, that's abstract, isn't it?

Yeah, but it makes sense.

You know, I have to know I'm moving, that there's an I. And I think that so many people with differently wired brains struggle with this.

Yeah.

Struggle with knowing what's me and what's not me.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Where are the boundaries between myself and the world? You know, it's interesting Rowan Scubb he's actually downstairs while I'm giving this. He's eating his dinner. He's just been helping. Today building the fence pasture and the 23 year old hulking six foot one dude who drives independently, who has his own car, who just sold in the process of selling his house so that he can have money in investment that he can then live on.

Well, this is why, this is why your work was so appealing to me. That when I first watched and read about Horseboy, I thought, of course! This and, and the idea of also the spiritual aspect of looking at person from a holistic perspective had a deep resonance of this is what's happening to the brain is you're putting together pieces that didn't necessarily connect well in isolated ways that through opportunity, you've allowed those freeways.

Right. I think that's a really good point that they have an inherent design, not which of course is therefore desire, right? So why, yeah, why would it feel distressing to feel those blurred boundaries?

Definitely. And you know, when we think about we are really designed for survival, not for comfort, darn it. Yeah. And so we are inherently That's why God

invested, invented Scotch whisky. Yeah.

Yes, and many other forms of adaptive behavior to help us cope with this, with this experience called human life. But I think that we are tracking for danger constantly.

Yes, yes.

And we regulate our sense of distress in the body. I have to feel me in order to regulate me. And that sounds, I know that when I say that, that sounds fluffy, but it's like, I have to, Understand what I'm experiencing at a very primitive level anyway, in order to feel safe in it.

Yeah, if I'm walking, it's interesting, while I'm, while I'm having this talk, the, the screen saver thing is a photograph of that we took last year in Etosha Game Reserve in Namibia.

You, you, you've described this such a, in such an elegant way. And you're reminding me of my neurobiology professor, Robert Sapolsky, who wrote, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers.

Interesting.

And he is a biologist, neurobiologist, and studied exactly what you're talking about and how our autonomic nervous system, I call it the automatic nervous system, is, it has a knowing. And the knowing doesn't necessarily require language. It's a knowing that is very sensory based intuitive based. That comes from this monitoring that you're talking about and allows me to shift into fight flight freeze.

You know, this is really good. This is, you know, a lot of, I think for a lot of people, a word like A phrase like sensory integration. It's one of those things you hear, and the first time you hear it, you're like, oh, what's that then? And then you go, oh, well, I suppose I sort of know what that is because, so it's like people, when they hear autism, they're like, oh, what's that?

agree with, couldn't agree with more. And it's to make it into understandable concepts that is useful to families and to people who themselves are looking to be their best self.

So sensory integration then is if I know who I am and where I am and what I am, then I know how to keep myself safe. Basically,

you did it. I don't know if anyone else has said it that simply great bottom line. You know, there's another thought I'm having as you're talking that autism is not one thing,

right?

That every person, you know, most of the children that I've treated with autism are now in their 30s. They all have a different story. How they experience. And it, you know, it's often very simply described academically as being overly sensitive or having difficulty in processing a piece of information. This is not my experience. My experience is that there is a difficulty in putting pieces together.

It's an interesting thing. I think anyone who's ever taken a psychotropic, a strong psychotropic and psychedelic drug has had that feeling of disintegration.

Correct.

And I think if one hasn't had that feeling of, oh shit, you know, I'm sort of disappearing, I'm fragmenting, I've, my cells are breaking up, I'm, I've lost, not just lost control, but I am no longer me.

Right.

Disembodied. Although there is a me that's experiencing this, you know, which is what anchors one in those experiences. Imagine going through that all the time.

And, and, and trying to organize relationships and, and also mask so that people, so that you give people what they want. My heart breaks when I think about it.

I'll tell you a funny story, but it's, it's a public story now. It's not me but something that describes that perfectly is, have you seen the Carlos Santana documentary?

No.

Okay. It's brilliant. Okay. It's brilliant. the plane and when he played at Woodstock. He was they're going through this and he was really young and he, he'd be the house band at the Fillmore in San Francisco only because he tried to break in to see the bands because he was this Hispanic boy from Tijuana, right? And that raised by Mariachi, good musician. And when they said, Hey, you're breaking in this of, yeah, but I just really want to see that. And they said, okay, can you play guitar?

Amazing. I know you know a lot about compassion and I think that what's important in this conversation to me is that. And that's where it comes back to that question you asked me about the behavioral approach, which is such a different way of engaging with humans. And how important it is to try, try to put our mind in the mind of the other.

Yeah, well, of course, if one's trying to train robots, then, of course, either to go into battle or stand in a factory line, that becomes of lesser importance, right? And that, you know, it's the inheritance, I think, of behaviorism. Because I certainly went through a school system that was a bit like that. They made us behave in certain ways that were designed to inure us to combat, basically, to be officers of the British Empire. You'd be first over the top into the machine gun fire.

Compliance is necessary under extreme danger.

Under extreme danger. But

not when you, not when you spill your milk.

No, no. And I remember thinking, why do I want a compliant kid? Because if I get a compliant kid, that's a kid that will get into a car with an adult. Just because the adult, the adult says, I'm an adult, you must comply. Get in the car. I want a cooperative kid. Yeah, but I also want a challenging kid. I want a kid that says, no, I don't know you. Who are you? Right. I'm not getting in that car.

And compliance actually diminishes curiosity.

Indeed. So, okay, we've got a largely equestrian audience here. And as I often say, we equestrians are a bit autistic in terms of our obsession with ponies. And it can be a bit hard for us to think in other terms sometimes. What are your, give us your best advice. If we are trying to serve. A child's or a person's neuro system, nervous system and brain. What are the three or four main things that if we don't do, will not just not have us succeed, but will absolutely ensure failure?

Number one, in all contexts of learning, is safety. And this comes from attunement. My experience of horses is they are incredible at this, in the attunement to the person that they're with. But also for us as facilitators in this process, safety is part of our job. It's our responsibility as well. And when I use the word safety, I'm not just talking about physical safety.

You're talking about emotional safety.

Yes. That is the backdrop for the nervous system to open the door. To the greatest degree of plasticity is safety. The second, whoops, the second variability is

repetition. You froze and a little thumbs up came out of your brain. So I'm thumbs upping your brain for that one. I couldn't agree more. The emotional, the emotional safety. So hard for horsey people because we're so bossy without even knowing we're bossy.

And it's important. That's an important variable.

Yeah.

Repetition. Number two is that the brain loves repetition from the perspective of wiring. So when you are looking to establish a pattern of relative permanent change, it means I need to do it again and again. And the third one, you asked me for three, is the brain is a predictive brain. So it is constantly, whether you're neurodiverse or not, the brain is constantly trying to fill in the story of what it expects.

Now, play devil's advocate there. Emotional safety, no devil's advocate. But for repetition and predictability, of course, we want to begin to help people to acquire the skill of dealing with non predictability, because that's going to happen. And stuff that comes novel new. I need to learn it quickly without repetition. Can you talk us through how paying attention to repetition and Predictability helps us deal with non repetition and non predictability.

Love it. And that's not a devil's advocate question. It's a very good question. I need to have a foundation, a platform first. And all that we've just spoken about around, The ambiguity of processing, the lack of security in my own reliable way of understanding the world, that once that predictability and repetition are foundationally there, I have a launchpad to then move from. So in, in my world, we call this the just the just right challenge, where me as the support person.

When you say in the arena, you, you, you mean in the riding arena?

Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's one of the reasons why with what we do with horse boy, we actually try to get out of arenas,

out of the arena

because we want to encounter the world.

Yes.

I mean, obviously if the weather's terrible in the arena, but if we can, we want to encounter the world. As you say, I want to give a platform of trust. It'll be all rightness. If we go out there and we will encounter some things we don't know and will, but not too much. So I need a certain amount of control over the environment, at least in the early stages later on. So, so basically, do you feel it's about building resilience?

Yes.

Okay.

And that resilience is, comes from trust, right? It begins with trust, trust of you, trust of the horse, trust of me. And then I can venture into the unknown.

It's so interesting you bring this up. When I was spending a lot of time with Kalahari San Bushman, I didn't realize, but when I was being given a. mentorship in parenting. And the reason was that what I was observing, the first thing I observed was that they co slept with their kids and they didn't co sleep with their kids from some philosophical point of view. They said, hyenas come at night, right? And they will take your shoes off your feet and you won't even feel it.

Exactly. Completely, completely agree.

What do you think is the most, common error most of us that work in the field of neurodivergence routinely make, and what's the sort of easy fix that we often miss that we don't see?

You are asking me all the hardest questions. I think the greatest error we make is trying to come to some sense of what we think normal is, the myth of normal, and that we are trying to be guided by goals that are constructed to help that person fit in.

How do we do that?

Journey, it's like a journey, really. It's, it's a ongoing standing alongside with curiosity about what's interesting to you and how do I join you and you just described it. In your Kalahari example, how do I join you, keep you safe, and build a bridge for you to explore at the same time? And we're talking about human attachment, which is a unfolding process. We could talk about this forever.

Oh, we could. I fully intend to.

I am, I'm not inviting myself, but I am coming to teach in Ireland in in October. So. Maybe there's an opportunity to meet in person.

Indeed, we will be there. And you need to meet and everyone listening needs to meet a man called David Doyle. David will not come on this podcast, even though he is the man I probably work the closest with in my, you know, professionally. Because he hates to public speak, even though he's really good at it. And he is, in fact, I think the modern day incarnation of the Wizard Merlin. In a, in a bad pullover. He'll kill me for saying that. But he's, he's an extraordinary, extraordinary person.

Hardly. And lots of lots of topper opportunity for conversation.

Yes.

Good. Thank you.

Do you need to run?

I do.

Okay. They're actually standing

at the stop of the stairs.

Okay.

Waiting for me to stop. Waiting

for the construction guys. All right. Well, I think what we're going to do, Kim, because this is too good of an opportunity To miss. I'm gonna have you come back on, if that's all right. I want to go a little deeper into the neuroscience. Okay. So with your permission, we'll do a round two.

That's lovely.

Okay, listeners, we actually had to take a break, in between the first part of this podcast and this one because, Kim's a busy lady, and she had to go on a massive world tour doing incredible work. And now she's back, and she's back from outer space, here to find her here without that look upon her face. Sorry, I couldn't, I couldn't resist that one. she's.

First of all, let me say it's exciting to be back and have a conversation with you. one of the interesting things that happens to me in dialogue with you that is unique is that, you know, when you think about this concept of tuning forks and you hold one up and one is sitting beside, and if they're not quite at the right frequency, they don't. Resonate.

Okay. So what have you been up to?

So what have I been up to? Well, we have been, we, I say we, because, Bob Spensley, who is my husband and business partner, we have been on the road since the middle, beginning, middle of August and, sharing, but you know,

it's, Where have you been on the road? You haven't just gone like down the road to the shop. No, no. Where, where have you, where have you been?

Six, six continents.

Why? What were you up to?

I was thinking about saying sharing knowledge, but that is so inaccurate because it's a mutual experience. It's not just a sense of Kim and Bob going on the road, giving a workshop. It's a holistic gathering of experience that builds on itself.

the main theme that's come out of these workshops? And for those of us who are working in this equine assisted field, what do you feel Other resonances that are coming out now that we should all be aware of.

It seems that there is a need, a desperate need, for a feeling and of hope

that

can lead to agency.

Okay.

And, and this theme is pervasive no matter where

people feeling powerless, people feeling lost,

people feeling powerless, people feeling victimized, people feeling hopeless in their capacity to have any ability to create a difference for themselves. And even though we have lived through a pandemic. And this may, in fact, be partly post pandemic. It was more obvious than last year.

Okay. is that because of just combined world events? Russia, Gaza, climate?

Definitely.

Or is it, is it, is it not really event specific, do you think? What, what's going

on? I think my perception is, is that people hook it. I don't know. But it's the event is a moving target of placement of underlying angst.

Okay. And you feel this angst is getting greater.

I do. And there's a sense of Need for increased compassion and connection, connection with each other as a way of in, in a way that is honoring of each other's beliefs, values, systems of engagement. So there, there is a need for honoring connection, but, and, and being heard and valued. More than I've ever seen.

What are the tools? What's the main tools that you go in? And again, I'm putting, I'm imagining the listeners. Probably nodding as they're driving listening to this thinking.

Well, the very first thing that happens. In a workshop, in any workshop, in every workshop is story storytelling. I mean, one of the things I think that I am known for is plugging into story, which is so different than sharing of information and through the. emotional vibration of story, it immediately creates a sense of I'm not alone.

Common humanity. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, like, for example, one story I tell all the time is about a kid that sat in my office for two years, In the Arctic of Canada, who was an elective mute, he had witnessed his grandmother be mauled by a polar bear. And he had nine different labels attached to him. And he was so angry and so dangerous. And he sat with me in silence for two years. And I felt like such a failure. Because I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't doing psychotherapy.

This is really interesting. you know, I have a couple of boys that come to me from a local international school, more or less weekly. And, They come with certain stories, and what I find their great need is, is for space and moving through nature. And of course I can provide that because I can take off into the forest with them with a couple of horses so that when they get, initially they actually often want to walk, but then when they get tired, their legs get tired, they can ride.

There are a few, there are some,

just to talk, yeah, talk to me about that.

There are beautiful elements in what you said that are more than just the conversation. And it's the concept of holding space, which is bigger than dialogue that comes with intention, and a sense of willingness to be present to the other. And that is a skill set because it requires attunement.

Is it the feeling of, yeah, so it's, it's not so much perhaps then, Or is it not so much, perhaps, then, that we're losing the ability to converse, or we're losing the ability to connect? Because we seem to connect, you know, whenever we can, and we're a connective species. But, is it safety that we've lost? Is it, weirdly, although most of us live in very, very safe, physically very safe, environments, why have we lost? A sense of safety.

Well, when you ask that question to me, I'm not sure I ever had it.

Mm-hmm Go on.

Really? I mean, I'm right, but

you're not, the, the bums are not dropping, you know? No. Right. Where you are. You know what I mean? It's, it's, so, there's a

difference between physical safety

mm-hmm

And emotional safety. You can grow up in the most safe home community and feel completely dismissed. Emotionally disconnected, not valued, not seen, not heard. You can grow up in affluence where everything is abundant in your environment and still not feel felt. By another person. So safety is relative and we have that dialogue all the time that what is safe to one. I mean, there are so many communities where there is danger and there is emotional relational safety.

Absolutely. No, you're right. I mean, I observed that among the sun and the Bushmen, whether, you know, you go out into the bush and there's lots of dangerous animals out there, but of course people are very competent in that environment. So they know how to minimize those dangers, but what they're not afraid of is their fellow human. At least. Not their own fellow humans.

I do believe that shared experience of danger creates an interesting sense of intimacy because of the collective collaboration required.

Right. Yes, we cannot fragment or the hyenas will eat us sort of thing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, I will never forget. I worked on the India Pakistani border during post earthquake. And these are people that generally day to day despise each other. And under the conditions of shared danger, they carried each other back and forth. Into safety the the shared experience at least temporarily brought them into a space of care for each other.

Right. And presumably we don't want to create, you know, unnecessary dangers. Is it that we need to create joint senses of purpose?

Correct. Completely. And is

the hopelessness that you're talking about actually purposelessness?

Exactly. And I think that that becomes revealed. As the dialogue unfolds, that there is a sense of emptiness, purposelessness, and a sense of disconnection.

So, okay, you go into these workshops with story. Yeah, that's how it starts. That's your opening that toolbox.

Yep.

What else is in that toolbox? And then what happens

is one story, I call it the sideways approach. I tell a story, and then the resonance of the tuning fork starts. And people's light bulbs go on. And. We weave back and forth between information. This is what's happening in the nervous system when, and what the information does is decrease shame that when people have a general understanding of their nervous system, they feel like, Oh my gosh. It's not that I'm fear, you know, that I don't have enough courage. It's not that I'm flawed.

And I

feel so, you know, he pooped his pants. He said, I feel like I'm so, he used not capable. And then when he understood, this is exactly what your nervous system does. When you are in these states of self protection.

Now that surprises me because I know a few people with that story. And in combat units, there's often just a sort of running dark humor that, yeah, the battlefield smells of shit. Because that's what's going on. was there no camaraderie with his unit in that regard?

I would say definite camaraderie, but lack of knowledge.

Okay.

I mean, this is early on, the onset of the Ukraine conflict.

Okay.

And many of them are not even soldiers.

Yeah, yeah.

everyday citizens solicited into combat without any prep, without any knowledge and, and creating a so called platoon out of without training at that time. So I think that it speaks to the development. of connection, perhaps through those experiences and, and the, the chance to be together as a team.

Right. Speaks to your earlier point. Go ahead, sorry.

It speaks to your earlier point of shared danger and being able to work that through together.

He must also have felt a great sense of pride at having stepped up to defend

his

country from a terrible aggressor. So would you say that his shame was still outweighed by his sense of worth for having fulfilled that role, or did it actually impact his sense of worth for having fulfilled that role?

I love that question, and as I pause to contemplate that question, the speed with which the shame transformed, speaks to the lack of its grip on the overall sense of self. It was more, you know, there's shame in the core self, which is so deep and this was more shame around action at one time that shifted in its grip of his nervous system and day to day. Coping that didn't take long to transform.

Okay,

so your question makes me think that it really, when we think about the complexity, this is what you're asking is the complexity of trauma and all the variables in an individual psyche that make it complex, complex trauma. This person, I would say, did not have. A history of developmental trauma in his, in his persona that made the traumatic experience be tagged as more event based rather than holistically having a grip on his entire being. It was such a good question you asked.

It makes me, it brings another question, which is, is that I think everyone, everyone who's listening to this works with trauma to some degree and also probably their own at the same time. It's so interesting. Is shame a paper tiger? Is shame a chimera? Is shame just our psyches and the conditioned colonized psyche, which for social control, you know, religion, whatever, make us feel ashamed of masturbating or whatever. And so therefore we'll go be depressed and fight your wars for you.

Well, I think, you know, the urge in my response to your question is to think from my neurobiology perspective. Orientation. Go on. In that, we are, I believe, wired for connection. And any time there's a sniff of rejection, abandonment, separation, difference, the nervous system notices this and contributes to the box that we identify as the shame parts of ourselves, because shame doesn't live there alone. We are each made of many parts.

Right, because they carry the risk of ostracism and our nervous system says, if you're ostracized. The hyenas get you.

You're not safe. And

I,

and I think, so the illusion that you're talking about, I think we will give up ourselves to sustain connection at all costs, really. With our people.

Right. That's gang culture, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

Now. Okay. There's jumping ahead of myself. So I'm just, the question that formed in my mind, I'm going to leave for a moment. So you open your toolbox. See. We've gone story.

Sorry.

Action. We've gone informing people about their nervous system, which can transform shame. Useful. What's next?

Well, in the moment, it usually, what usually happens in front of our eyes is activation.

Tell us, can you define what does activation mean?

People in the audience typically have a response to the story or to the information and That looks like many things. Sometimes it looks like anger. Sometimes it looks like, changes in power in their face color. You can also see dissociation where people, their eyes become empty. And this is why it's so good to do this work as a team, because it's hard to see that in large numbers of people. You, you can also feel it, as I know you know what I mean. You feel it in you.

At what point do you explain to the people in the workshop that this is how they're building resilience? Because when the amygdala is activated, as you know, anger, dissociation, fear, the intellect has gone on vacation. So, One cannot in that moment appeal to an intellectual or logical process. So, can you talk us through, through that then? Amigdala is activated. You want, yes, you're validating. And at the same time, you would like to be able to show them.

I think I wish the audience could see that I'm smiling because the answer is it depends, you know, it depends on a number of variables. The formula is always the same. Really? What changes? is the duration, the timing. This is attunement,

right? The, you get better, better at it, it gets quicker, better

at it. At attuning, when to move in, when to back out, when to just nod, when to move my body away. Sometimes it's too intrusive to be up close. When to actually change the subject sometimes, when to front load with information, when to step into emotion. This is 40 years of practice. Of skill of doing lots of messing up and continuing to mess up and continuing to repair. And at the same time, I often, often, not always, but often am narrating what I'm doing while I'm doing it.

Okay.

So that the audience is like a witness and an experiencer at the same time.

So that, does that mean that when someone has had an amygdala reaction, Within the workshop or session client session or whatever is the validation followed by the is it the validation that allows the amygdala to relax?

Yes.

And opens the way to the intellect because is it the validation that says to the amygdala? Don't worry. You're actually not about to be rejected and left out for the hyenas. We remain connected despite the fact that. You're waving your arms around and shouting or whatever that would normally drive people away. I'm validating you here, so I'm staying with you. And then some seconds pass and the amygdala deactivates the cortisol.

Sometimes it's not seconds. Sometimes it's hours.

Yeah. Okay. So you have that time in a workshop? You have that time in a

client session? Yeah. Yes. And no, here's how, here's how I'm just

thinking about, you know, some say here I'm in the arena with my horse, with this person and they've kicked off. I don't have, you know, a week and you're

going to also have another opportunity.

Okay.

Okay. But, but the validation is needs a little bit of clarity here. You're meeting people where they are. You're showing up. It's like I'm enraged and you stand there and. Meet me without joining me. The validation is not validation of the information. I'm not validating your story. I'm validating your, your, your, the truth of your experience. What it is that you are feeling, and that's the, the portal to safety. Right there. Right. And, but in that, I'm not all nicey nicey all the time.

So when you're not nicey nicey, then can you give us an example of that? Like, okay, I'm effing and blinding at you now, and wanting to get a rise out of you. so it's don't nicey nicey, but at the same time, You don't want to be too not nicey nicey, so, yeah, talk us through that.

The not nicey nicey doesn't come out necessarily in words. It comes out in your body. When you think about nurturance, for example, the non verbals that we draw from in nurturance, typically, are how you use your voice, melodic, how you might use your eyes, how you lean your body in, what your gestural system does. It's A gestural, it's a non verbal approach system, whereas when there is anger or threat. It requires boundary for the other and me, that's containment.

You don't see, what's the reaction to that? Do they usually,

it's usually, yeah.

Okay.

Because I'm not going to go. And, you know, I wrote, I wrote a book with a, a former national hockey league champion. Who survived by rage and you know that I use my greatest teacher because I would say that my greatest fear was rage and the feeling of violence and You it takes practice to step in Boundary and not own it as an example. Other people are completely activated by crying and tears. Yeah. Or they feel manipulated, right? Or out of control. We each have our own blind spots.

One of the things which, I try to cultivate, I don't, you know, Always managed to, but I do try is, I call it the happiness garden. where, when I'm in challenging situations or feeling disappointed or it doesn't have to involve another person, you know, but it can do. I, the last five years or so, I've tried to make a practice of feeling like there's a, a happiness garden in my chest and that I'm, when I'm feeling. Rocky, I'm, I'm st. I'm in that happiness garden.

good

at it, right? A lot of people are coming into this field of work now in their twenties and thirties. When we first began with Horseboy, for example, you know, it was all the people we were training were people who were already being practitioners for a long period of time and they were just looking to add to their toolkit, you know, they were already good at what they did. Now, this has become something of an industry and this is a good thing because it means more people get served.

with gray hair,

what do you, what do you, you're going to get some gray hairs in the course of this work, but, what's your suggestion for people that are really coming into this line of work? Because I think a lot of times they get. caught on the back foot a little bit, by how demanding it can be this way emotionally.

I love that. I love all your questions and your happiness garden, because what this work is really about. Remember, at the beginning when we talked about gallivanting around the world and You know, we are sharing information, but we're also gathering information and evolving. Every minute is a opportunity to evolve one's self.

And

the truth of the work is, calm and regulated is different. Regulation, and I think I said this last time, regulation is about being connected to yourself. And so the, it's not about being perfect. It's about being authentic. So for example, I've got a really great example. my daughter who I adore and love lives here with us recently, and we have been away for six months. And came home last night and I came into the studio this morning just to come in and be with you and it was a disaster

of the tequila bottles and

right. It was well, not quite like that, but not ready to be in a, in a, you know, in a useful state. Yeah, and there's enough security in the relationship and enough. Security within me now to say to her this is very frustrating.

Yeah,

without fear of damaging the relationship

Yeah,

so I had to connect in normally ten years ago I would have sucked it up cleaned it up been pissed off and it would have leaked out somewhere else

Mm hmm

in the relationship Whereas if I can pause and say to myself, I don't like this, this, this feels like a boundary violation or I don't feel valued in this situation or whatever words come, I'm actually taking care of myself in that moment. And what's fascinating about that self acknowledgement. Is it actually changes it? I found it quite funny in that it took me about two minutes and then it was like, Oh, this is such an irrelevant thing.

Yeah.

So that that's the authentic connection where I can genuinely connect into whatever it is that is activated, whether it's little or big and not talk myself out of it. Then it moves on its own, rather than me having to have it leak out, as I say, in other things that I'm trying to do. And I've done that with clients. I've said things like, Oof, I'm sharing this with you right now. I'm so activated. Right now, I can't be with you until I'm with me a little bit longer.

So that doesn't trigger shame in them. For sure.

And plus they're going to read it anyway. They're going to read it in my, especially a kindled

amygdala

is going to read the potential nonverbal of disconnection in a millisecond. And they're going to think it's about them.

So what do you, what do you say to, to safeguard that they don't dissolve into a puddle of shame? When

I will say, Ooh, this one's mine.

Okay. So you, you, you say right up front, this is me, not you. Or I'm

with you in this one. We're in this one together. I also use a lot of humor, Rupert.

Yeah.

A lot of humor. I've got a dry sense of humor. I make it very light.

For those of you who can't see Kim on the Zoom, she is in fact sitting here in a pink gorilla suit. It is true. That's not true! But,

you know, it's not all gloom and doom.

Yeah, that's true. No, I think this is a really good point, lightheartedness. So I, one of the, one of the guidelines in Ospoi method, movement method, tacky in any of our programs is humor, particularly toilet humor, actually, because it's an act of rebellion, you know, for people who are over therapized and kids who've been told there's something wrong with them. And, you know, and you can teach all science through poo, you know, all the time, but because it appeals to that sense of rebellion.

I, I, I can be quite sassy, I think, and then quite tender. So, you know, when one of the things is that it's a, it's a moving dial, and then there's a narration of intent.

Okay, go on. What do you mean by that?

I'll say, well, if I, if I get a perception, That my humor has landed flatly or somewhat inappropriately

by the way Wasn't narration of intent the supporting band in the 1983 tour of the smiths? In canada,

I have no idea

Go on anyway, sorry Narration of intent. Okay. So when you find your your your your and let's

say I've said something and it landed like, you know, like you just made me laugh Mm hmm But if I didn't, or if I had done that to you and it didn't laugh, I went, I would have said something like, well, that didn't go so well.

Right, right, right. You take, you take, you take the joke on you.

Yeah. Or, you know, my, my, my humor was not well timed there.

Yeah. Right. Well that went down like a lead balloon. Yeah,

exactly. I'm tracking myself

as

well as other. All the time. And so I'm noticing what's going on in here, in me, while I'm also watching what's going on in you. And you know, you've got, you've also got the information of the horse.

Right. Well that, that, this, this all, yeah. Who's even

better than both of us, right?

It's like, I've been answering some of these questions myself in my head, actually, because each time I asked him, I was like, yeah, but if the horse is there, they kind of co regulate for you and bring you guys back to the present and diffuse a lot of the conflict just by the fact that they're so awesome and, you know, but of course, then let's say someone's coming to us for a session and they're with the horse and the horse actually is picking up a lot of, most of the slack this way.

You know, you talked about the happiness garden as your tool. That's a cultivation of cognition,

cultivation of cognition, cognition. They actually supported narration of intent. I think at the same Smith's concert. And yeah,

there we go. You got it. Our bands are together. So the cultivation of cognition means. It's a very high order skill.

Go on.

You reflect to know when you shift out of the predictive brain back into the desire to cultivate happiness, to tap into gratitude, that's cognitive and

predictive brain being like pessimism.

Well, the predictive brain brain is definitely has a negativity bias. Absolutely.

Well, that won't work because blah, blah, blah. Exactly.

And it, it doesn't even come to consciousness sometimes.

Yes.

Just operating like Norton antivirus, running in the background, producing, reproducing old habits.

Right.

Neurons that fire together, wire together. And, and so consciousness Negative

neuroplasticity, yeah. Correct.

Consciousness is the last level of, of true capacity to shift. And sometimes that happens in a second and sometimes it takes years. And it's very difficult. So when, when you, when you ask me the question, what do you give someone or what does someone take home? Your, your, your, your gift of home is different for each client, dependent on their place of entry. The easiest place to create a shift is in the body, which I know you know.

Go on though, talk about this.

So even something as simple as I'm doing a, what we call a butterfly tap, which is a rhythmic, Tapping of the outline of my body with my hands. Even that?

I'm just going to describe for listeners because they can't see it. So what, what Kim did, and it's funny, the moment you started doing it, I felt a little oxytocin of connection. So she, she crossed her arms. So their hands, let's say you cross your arms. So one hand would be on each shoulder. And then she started to tap, Those shoulders and then down her arms and down her forearms like that. And it did indeed look like a bit of a butterfly. That's a cool one.

And what it does is, at a very primitive level in the nervous system, is increase the load of information of the body to the brain, which really gives you an outline of you. Like, this is me. I'm here. And it, it decreases the disconnection that comes with a flooded amygdala. And Yes, it gives oxytocin, it also gives dopamine and serotonin, that kind of activity.

cognition. Yeah, because the amygdala doesn't allow it.

So, if I have a client, or you have a child that you're working with, and you're giving support to a family, even when the parent does butterfly tap as an example, then they are modeling that for the child, but as the parent moves the energy of the child themself, it changes the energy of them both.

It's so interesting when I, you know, when I was at the beginning of my autism journey with my own son and was sort of being kicked around by the behavioral therapists. You know, one of the things which, of course, they were all obsessed with was quiet hands and telling my son to stop stimming as if he could understand what they were on about anyway. And it seemed to me, That he was stimming to self regulate.

Yes.

And I, when I used to watch him rocking and flapping and doing that stuff, I would, I would kind of often think, yeah, I do that actually. When I'm, when I'm. Anxious I rock because that I'm later on I realized oh, that's about the body trying to produce oxytocin to get you out of the amygdala So that you can actually think your way out of a situation.

stop

that because that's the clue to a nonverbal person's emotional state because sometimes the stims are happy stims and sometimes the stims were and it's often the same movement, but it could be expressed. Like a flat can be yay and a flat could be you know, but it's the same movement of the wrists, right?

Well, you and I are on the same tuning fork again, because I've been running around this planet for 25 years, pleading people to see the body as a use of how we can come back into our, State of ease and please stop making people stop whatever strategy or need that they have to feel at ease in their own being. Could we please just honor that,

you know, back to your point about the veteran pooping his pants and it's interesting. I was thinking about a similar experience. I had myself. I was once mugged by five guys in a crowd in Africa and I've as the fists were coming down on me and I was thinking, are they going to kill me? What are they going to do? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just felt myself pissing my pants and I says, but it's still a voice in my head just went.

How are they working with the nervous system? They are trying to begin to move from the perception of seeing themselves as victims. So the concept that you just spoke of, Abandonment of self is what I call it. So any, and this can begin at infant, I mean, first hours after birth.

How far in is this project?

Brand new.

Is it all grades?

No, it's very difficult.

Meaning, no, is it all grades? Is it, is it like K through 12 or is it?

Oh, I thought you said, is it all great?

No.

I heard great. Is it all grades? Yes, all grades.

Okay.

From preschool till grade 12.

Any way that the listeners can find out more about this project?

Well, there is if you look up First Nations School Board in the Yukon.

First Nations School Board in the Yukon? First Nations School

Board in the Yukon of Canada.

Okay.

You would? See their mission page, their, their endeavors, the things that they, I can feel

a podcast coming up. Yeah.

I feel so proud of them. Yeah.

First nations

school board, F and S B

school board.

And I can send you the link to their website at the dialogue. Yeah.

Do you, do you happen to have URL even on your phone is your phone handy that just so that listeners could pull over and Write it down because I think for for all of us who are working We don't just work in therapy work in education, right? We're teaching stuff

correct

while we're doing these things and You know, we're actually, we're actually delivering curriculum quite a lot of the time. And I would love to find out more about land and language, and

yes, I do.

Yeah. So

www dot

www dot

f nsb. Do CF

nsb. F N S B dot C A. Fantastic. I'm going to contact them. Brilliant. Awesome.

Good. Whoo!

Mmm.

We stuck our toe in lots of different places.

Well, so many, in fact, that we're going to have to return. I haven't even asked you what's about the work you've been doing with Porges and Levine, who of course are, you know, like you, among the sit sitteth in the firmament of polyvagal neuroscientific stuff up there on Olympus where you guys have been. And I'd like to delve into that more. I'd like to talk much more about how you view attunement and what that actually is because it's, it's so multi faceted, but people use that word a lot.

another, I have another wish on my wish list. I'm just going to put it out there. We we'll be back in Europe in the spring of 2025. What would be really awesome is an opportunity to actually do some work together.

Yes, please. Let's do that. Do you know when you're coming?

Yes, May.

May. All right. I

can't tell you the exact date at this moment, but we'll be in Ireland, Bulgaria, Italy. Germany's not that far away.

Well, also I work in all those countries too. We have many projects in Ireland. Bulgaria, I've never been to, so that's a great excuse. but Italy too, we, we actually run retreats in Italy. we run retreats in Ireland. All right. Tell what would that look like? Would that be like a two day thing? A five day thing? A one day thing? What, what, what do you think? What does a Kim Barthel thing normally look like?

Well, what I was thinking is how could I be of service to you? Not. anything else. Like my, my thought was, I need to learn about what you do. and how could I benefit from the, just like everything else, what more is there to collaborate in and learn from in your presence as well. So it's not so much, what am I bringing, but what can we create together was my thought.

Well, absolutely. I'm just trying to think. What instinctively do you feel? Do you feel it's a two day thing? A three day thing? I mean, in terms of what people can probably, we

could probably have fun in two days.

Okay. All right. Let's, you heard it. Kim and I going to do it two days in the pub. And you can join me.

Because unlike you, I don't have the extensive experience, extensive experience of hanging out with the horse. And so that variable to me would be something that would really deepen the work.

Well ponies are us. And what you'll find is you'll bust me immediately. It'd be like, Oh, I see. Rupert's just full of it because the horse just does all the work. Rupert, yes. Hangs out next to him. Which is basically true. But going into the neurosensory stuff of why that is, how that is, is interesting for sure. And okay, well, I'm going to put that out there to our people that you and I will, we'll, we'll do a collaboratory thing. But I, I want to, I want to learn from you.

I'll send you when the calendar unfolds, which should be by the end of the Christmas holidays.

Okay,

then we will have a clearer idea of our schedule.

And then just in case you're listening to this, in fact, in 2027 or something, because these things tend to hang around. Hopefully, when you get to this part of the thing, then there'll be more information. In 2027, more of these things. So, look us up. All right. So Kim, people will want to know how to find your work and contact you. How can they contact you? Can people contact you personally? Can they engage with you as a mentor? Can you just talk us through all the options, please?

So our website, well, the name of our company is Relationship Matters.

Relationship Matters.

Relationship Matters. And the website is www. kimbarthel. ca. We live on all the social media platforms under Kim Barthel. I am tricky to connect with personally. It's, it's really a nonstop, well, nonstop schedule. We do do mentorships. And they are not the most common thing that happens. Right in our work and really it's about coming and joining us when we are on the road in a workshop venue. And

brilliant.

Thank you.

Okay. So will you, will you come back on?

Yes.

And we can keep this conversation going. Yes. It's fun.

As I said, the tuning fork is resonant. So let's, let's do it.

And I'm going to throw this one open to listeners. Lads, if you've got questions Send them into me admin at N T L S N T L S dot C O and we will make sure that we hold Kim's feet to the fire to get answers for those things. Because I know so many people do have questions for you. And our mutual friend, Leanna tank, who is an amazing occupational therapist. He works with the most. dangerous criminals in lockdown in psych units in, in the Midwest is also I feel a mentor and she brought us together.

what

I might do if it's all right is bring her in actually on the next podcast and then we could include, make it a three way thing. Amazing. Amazing. That'd be good. Okay, brilliant. I'm going to wax her. All right.

All right,

Kim. Amazing. Thank you.

Happy holidays

to you too. Speak soon. Okay. You bet. Take care.

Thanks.

thank you for joining us. We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people dealing with trauma around the world. We also offer a horse training program and self-care program for riders on long ride home.com.