Back when we were thinking of NOC Chain in 2023, we said we want to solve distribution. We want to get more people doing proofs with the NOC ZKVM than anything else as fast as possible in a self reinforcing process. And so we built a zero knowledge proof of work competition, a ZK proof of work in NOC Chain. The proof of work competition is to solve and and build ZK proofs. We wanted to use the consensus mechanism to drive and incentivize the production at industrial scale of 0 knowledge
proofs. The core economic center of gravity of North Chain is around a scarce value storage instrument. And so all of the revenue generation capabilities that are going to be built over time for data availability, for programmability are about increasing the monetary velocity and the usefulness of that digital goal. So the framing that I that I've kind of used and that I like is that not chain is programmable
sound money that scales. Welcome to Epicenter, the show which talks about the technologies, projects and people that are having decentralisation and production revolution. I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Logan Allen, who is the CEO of ZOR. SORB is a company that's been working on ZK technology and they have also launched new proof of work ZK chain called Knock Chain very recently. So really excited to talk with
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So whether you're building a DAP, experimenting with De Fi, or working on autonomous agents, Nosis Chain gives you a solid, neutral foundation to build on. But Nosys is more than just infrastructure. It's also tools that people can actually use. Like Circles, for example. Let's anyone issue their own digital currency through networks of trust, not banks. And then there's Metri.
It's their smart contract wallet that makes it easy to access circles, manage group currencies, and even spend anywhere Visa is accepted thanks to their integration with Nosys Pay. All this is governed by Nosys Dow, where anyone can propose, vote and help guide the network. And if you want to get involved, running a validator is super easy. All you need is 1 GNO and some
basic hardware. To learn more and start building on the open Internet, head to nosis dot IO Nosis, Building the Open Internet one Block at a time. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on, Logan. Happy to be here. Yeah, it's been, I think a long time coming. I mean, I've been aware of Zorb since the very, very beginning, but maybe you can start here. Like what? What was your journey like? How did you get into, well, crypto, I guess Erbit and sort of, yeah.
Tell us a little bit about your journey. Yeah, absolutely. So I have a software engineering background, was programming since I was 12, went to Georgia Tech for computer science. And then I started getting really into Bitcoin and the whole cryptocurrency thing in 2016 or so. And by 2017, I just, I was in class, I was thinking, what am I doing here? Learning, You're learning more math. Why am I doing this instead of just going out and working in
industry trying to get Bitcoin? And so I was about to start my senior year and I decided I was going to drop out and just go move to San Francisco, work in the Bay, grab a job and get started. Just trying to accumulate basically. And so I've spent time at Uber doing product engineering during some of their growth periods, spent time at Snap. And then eventually I found myself actually working more directly in adjacent to crypto at Tuan, which was the research company that built Urban.
And so I spent some time there, ended up as a tech lead on their product team and there was a lot of fun things going on at Talon at that time. It's, it's hard to even describe the energy, but Talon had this very ambitious vision of, of building a new operating system and a new decentralized Internet
to complement block chains. And, and I really, once I started interacting a lot with the technology there, I, I really saw something very transformative because of how minimal and how tightly defined everything was. And in a world in which we're increasingly dependent on computing and these trustless decentralized systems for really our everyday life, for being able to send money around, for
being able to store value. And in a world where centralized banking and centralized information stores are increasingly compromised at an ever increasing rate, I really find that vision of trying to get more of our data stored and decentralized and really secure encrypted ways with really minimal security assumptions to be very compelling. And so I, I spent a few years there and then I worked on a product studio for a little while. And eventually in 2022, I founded Zorp.
And initially the idea with Zorp was we're just going to do a bunch of research and how we can take one of those technologies from Urbit, the NOC instruction set, how we can take that and make a really, really performant ZK VMA0 knowledge virtual machine that uses that instruction set. And we, I was able to bring on some amazing math pH, DS, former professors and things like this to work on it with me. And then we made some really great research results.
We, we recently published a paper actually that's kind of the encapsulation of all the research we've done over the past two years into this in, in June, we published an E print. And then anyway, in 2023, we looked at what we had built and we said, how are we going to go to market with this? Right? And so we decided to build knock chain. I, I've been in and around
crypto for quite a while. And frankly, you know, not everyone feels the same way about this, but I've, I've always really preferred the no pre mind proof of work ethos to the more pre mind proof of stake ethos. Just because I, I, I think of these economic protocols as having these like core economic engines and incentives that they bring to bear in addition to the actual technological features.
And I, I think that there's a little bit of kind of an, there's been an emphasis, let's say on, on particular incentives around basically going to market with pre mind proof of stake protocols because they're easier to underwrite by private
placement. And I think that what we've seen over the past seven years or so since that emphasis really took hold is that there's now a lot of block chains that all have the exact same incentives and aren't really doing any innovation on the crypto economics. But they all have these like different technical flavors.
Basically. You know, there's the AI blockchain, the fast blockchain, the storage blockchain, you know, there's so many flavors all marketing to kind of the same group of developers, all trying to be the next Ethereum, but they all have the same incentives. And so we wanted to do something different. We wanted to, we wanted to build something that, that we could, that we could really get behind for a very long time.
And So what we decided to do with NOC Chain is, is build it as a fair launch proof of work project and try to use the proof of work incentives in a novel way to incentivize real world behavior that that we wanted to see. And so of course we had the ZKVM. And so I imagine you're familiar with VHS, Betamax. Often, often when there's a new technology, the one that wins is not necessarily the best one. It's the one that gets the best distribution. Now of course, we love NOC CKVM,
we think it is the best. We released this wonderful paper last last month showing formal security soundness bounds and showing that we see performance about an order of magnitude more than RISC 5 VMS, which is rather compelling. But we wanted to solve back when we were thinking of NOC Chain in 2023, we said we want to solve distribution, We want to get more people doing proofs with the NOC ZKVM than anything else as fast as possible in a self reinforcing process.
And to do that you need to actually use incentives. You can't just have these like top down grants or anything like that. And so we built a zero knowledge proof of work competition, AZK proof of work.
And so in NOC Chain, the proof of work competition is to solve and, and build ZK proofs, not, not to build hashes like you see in, in standard Bitcoin. And so that was where Nachang was born was we wanted to use the consensus mechanism to drive and incentivize the production at industrial scale of 0 knowledge proofs. I'm going to pause because you asked a very simple question. And I really, I really got into it. But that's, that's the story.
That's that's how we got here. Yeah, I think there's a lot of things here that I want to dive a little bit deeper into, but maybe we can start with urban a little bit because I mean, urban is something I've been involved in since for a long time as well. And you know, we've, we've done a bunch of urban podcasts here. Maybe 2 questions here. How would you describe urban? What inspired you about it?
And and then also I'm curious, what are your biggest learnings from how you've seen the urban ecosystem evolve that you wanted to sort of apply when it comes to NOC chain? Yeah, absolutely. So the things that appealed to me the most about Urban were the idea that that really this, this crypto ethos of self sovereignty and decentralization in this idea that that you should kind of be in charge of your own destiny. You should custody your own
funds. You should, you should be the one that's ultimately making the decision about whether the funds move or not. You don't need custodians. This, this concept for me, I, I think applies to a lot more than just money. And, and I saw when I joined Urban, the thing that really appealed to me the most was that they had the most expansive vision of how to apply those principles across the rest of computing.
And I think that I think that that ambition to, to spread the crypto ethos to a, to a larger set of applicable principles, let's say, to, to make, to make it more easy to run, say your own energy grid at home, right? Like do solar and batteries run your own energy? Don't be dependent that that kind of almost homesteading vision with computing where you know, you're growing your own food, you've got some automated systems helping you grow your own food, you're producing your
own energy. You've got some automated systems doing that. And you just have these protocols that run that don't make you more dependent on everyone else, but make you less dependent and in making you less dependent, make you more free and more agentic. That was what really appealed to me about Urbit and I, I still find that vision very appealing. Not even, even now that I'm I'm not working on the project directly.
And to me, it's, it's still about how, how do we, how do we bring those same principles to bear regardless of whether it's in that form factor? And what are the biggest things you feel like you want to do different from orbit or your biggest sort of lessons that you see? Can we swear on this podcast for sure?
Go ahead. OK, OK, OK, so I wanted to ask OK, so so Urbit needed to ship a product to users that created a that basically showed why they would need the infrastructure that that they that they were producing the vision for. OK, so let's let's kind of like talk about this from first principles. If you're building a growth company and you're selling a big vision, you need to be able to provide a compelling first use case for that vision.
That's a step towards the vision, OK, as as a justification for why and, and, and also as a, as a tool to show where you can go. So when when Elon wants to make better battery technology, he tells everybody, I'm going to give you the best car. And then he gets to go invest in battery technology. When Elon wants to make better rockets, he tells everyone, Mars is really cool.
Wouldn't you love to live there? Wouldn't that be so cool if we had this new place that we could go colonize and live? And then he gets, then he gets to take that vision and turn it into and turn it into action of building tangible goods, right, of building and making rockets better, right? So you start with selling speculative vision, then you show that you're making real steps towards capturing that energy and actually turning it into something real.
And so the thing that I think Urban has done the worst job of overall is they, they have an amazing speculative vision of, of what can happen with computing. And they've done a really poor job of showing that they can actually take real steps towards making that real. Yeah, certainly that has been a challenge.
I agree with you. Now let's talk about Knock, right, Because I think Knock is basically the kind of assembly language of Herbit. And in the beginning I, you know, I don't think ZK proofs was something that was like really consideration there. But my understanding is to spend to occur to spend, you know, five years or something in the beginning just on Knock to try to make the most simple and elegant definition of a computer.
And you know, in the orbit thing space you'd have people then print out the whole knock definition on AT shirt. And that was kind of one of the price. Look, it's so simple. It fits on AT shirt. Like how what's your tell us more about like how do you feel about knock? Why are you so excited about Knock? Yeah. So we love NOC so much that we that we named the whole blockchain after it. We we literally named the currency of the blockchain NOC. OK.
We, we are, we are NOC maximalist over here at Zorb and with Nocchain. And the reason for this is that NOC is a minimal executable specification of computing in which you can do any practical thing that you want to do with the computer and specify it in terms of NOC instructions. It has built in capabilities for extension instructions.
So for complex arithmetic or cryptography, you can just call out to an extension instruction in the same way that your CPU calls out to its ALU, its arithmetic logic unit for fast edition, like you're not manually calculating in the CPU. You know, every, every arithmetic instruction. It's basically calling out a little specialized chip subsets on on the on the chip. So NOC.
NOC is built in a way that mirrors the way that CPUs are built where you have a generic flow of logic that's minimal and can do anything Turing complete computer can do. And then you can call out to instructions that are extensions. And NOC is is agnostic to how many extensions you have or what they do, but only imposes 1 requirement that it's a pure function.
So this is a really, really key component here, which is you have a minimal Turing complete computer and then you can call out to extension instructions for any complex arithmetic etcetera that you need to go really fast. And so this lets you do hardware acceleration of any complex logic, but have an extremely consistent specification for
normal computing operations. And so consistency is a really, really powerful tool when building systems because consistency and having a really, really minimal surface area of possible things that can occur allows you to build systems that you can actually understand. And in understanding them, you can cover the security holes and vulnerabilities, you can hold a mental model of what's happening in your head, and you can build
and work a lot more effectively. And so the, the, the real things about NOC that are distinct, that are really unique is 1, It's extremely minimal. And the second one is that it only uses a single data structure. OK, So these components are going to really, really matter when we start talking about ZKVMS, OK. And the extension instruction pieces too. That's, that's something that is rather unique to NOC, but that
most ZKVMS now use as well. So, but when NOC invented this and when NOC was introduced in 2008, this idea of these extension instructions being included was, was very, very unique. No one else was doing this. So the, the key point around this is NOC is really minimal, very few instructions but turned complete. And 2nd, NOC is built around a single data structure, the
binary tree. And this single data structure it turns out is, well, First off, it's one of the most fundamental data structures in computer science, many, many, many things in computer science or binary trees, efficient databases, dictionaries, etcetera. And then second, because everything is one data structure and there's a really minimal set of instructions, it allows you to build really very efficient ZKVM circuit for the not ZKVM.
And so that's, that was that was the initial intuition that that I had had in in 2022 was this is really minimal. Binary trees are a very well studied data structure with strong mathematic properties. And so I thought we can probably build a really efficient ZKVM around this, because ZKVMS as as a concept are a way to express computation in terms of. Essentially middle school arithmetic. You probably remember from from Intermediate School, right?
You have you have these polynomials, right? F of X is equal to X ^2 + 3 or whatever. And so AZKVM is a way to take a computation and express it as a relationship between polynomials. So the idea is that you constrain the results of what is going to be computed using the polynomials.
And in practice what you do is you ensure that for any given pair of rows, so for any given like pair of states in the in the circuit, you're going to evaluate a polynomial that must evaluate to 0. So this is getting a little particular, but the, but in practice, the way it works is you've got a computation, you record all the steps that you do, you put them in this big table, and then you apply these polynomial constraints and the polynomials have to all be 0,
otherwise you did the computation wrong. And ZK proofs give you a way to to use this these kind of little primitives and give you a really, really small proof that the computation was done correctly. That can be verified extremely quickly, regardless of how really big the computation was. And the proof's tiny. So let's say I've got some super huge computation I want to do.
I can do it, make AZK proof of it, send it to you, and you can verify it on your phone in like 20 milliseconds, no matter how big the computation was. This is really a powerful primitive. It's, it's kind of like, so hash functions let you take a fingerprint of data, no matter how big the data is and compress it into a little bitty piece that lets you verify that the data is what it's supposed to be. And so ZK proofs are kind of like a hash function, but for computation instead of data.
So it lets you commit to the computation. What? Do you think are the implications of CK proofs? Like what are the use cases you're most excited about and how do you think CK proofs are going to change the world in the long term? Yeah. OK. So the long, the long term ZK proofs, I think we're going to totally transform finance, compliance, medicine, privacy, and probably things like voting also.
And we can, we could get into the kind of like speculative idea of how these things can impact. But the general heuristic is anytime that you want to be able to do something privately, but have everyone else be able to verify that it was done correctly, AZK proof is your best tool. So we don't really want our credit scores being leaked all over the Internet every time Equifax gets hacked, but they do.
And so that type of really sensitive data, that's, that's the type of thing where ZK proofs would be really, really useful. Or similarly, your medical
records or how you voted. It would be really, really nice if every time we have an election, everyone's not all pointing fingers and saying you cheated, you cheated, da, da, da. It'd be really nice if we had a public, transparently verifiable mathematic representation that says everyone voted once, everyone that voted was supposed to be able to vote, and we can all verify that, but we don't
know who voted for what. These types of features are uniquely enabled by ZK in a really efficient way. Now that's kind of the like long term societal implications. I guess. There's one more, which is we're in a, we're in a world where hacking and cyber warfare is
increasingly relevant. 0 day attacks are kind of the new thing in terms of in terms of warfare, whether whether it's the actual security zero day attack where they're, you know, hacking your information or whether it's, you know, them dropping like a cargo crate full of full of drones next to your base. And then the drones come out and
bomb everything. These are kind of, these are like very sudden, very like frankly sophisticated attacks that involve technology are, are the cutting edge of warfare. And it really is in many ways impacting critical infrastructure and critical infrastructure threat modeling. So the power grid, right, and water treatment facilities, how do we get clean water? How do we have, how do we have, you know, good food? How do we have power?
This is these types of questions are obviously in some ways physical concerns. You actually have to protect these things. But these systems are increasingly digital. And so securing these systems and allowing for introspection into these systems, verifiability that everything is going correctly, this this is becoming increasingly important. And 0 knowledge proofs are a great way to be able to get that verification component. So that's all the long term stuff.
In terms of the short term stuff, 0 knowledge proofs are extremely good today for making blockchain steel really, really, really good. And that's, that's one of the things that we're using heavily for knock chain. So one of the things that block chains are kind of one of the things I'd say is unfortunate about blockchains is today the way that blockchains achieve verifiability.
Like you know, if we are running a Uniswap smart contract on our Etherium nodes, you guys run a lot of Etherium nodes. I know if if you're running Uniswap on it, you have to be running that smart contract on every single node you're running in order to actually make the next state transition. If you want to check the next block, everybody has to run the same computation and verify you get verifiability through replication of execution. You just all execute the same
code. That's how you know you all got the same answer. Well, that's really inefficient for I don't know how many Ethereum nodes are running today, do you? You probably do. I don't know exactly number off the top of my head, but it's many, yes. Yeah, it's, it's a lot, right? They're all running the same computation, right? They, they all have to run the exact same thing every, you
know, every new block. So, you know, you've got, I don't know, however many 30,000 computers all running the exact same thing every block. That's kind of inefficient. So the way the way we see it is and and I mean Justin Drake and these guys are all starting to starting to pitch some of this stuff too. And you know, talking about how Ethereum's going to transform over time. I think they've got some five year vision. Well, anyway, the the future of block chains is point blank.
You're you're going to be running the actual computation on your computer and you're going to be verifying what you did on the blockchain. You're not going to be actually doing execution on the blockchain. That doesn't make that doesn't make very much sense. What makes a lot of sense is for you to verify a proof that you did the execution on the blockchain. And so off chain execution, on chain verification.
So that no matter how much computation you did, no matter whether you were running AI models or really sophisticated high frequency trading algorithms or crazy MEV protection or super sophisticated loan credit checks or whatever it is you're doing, whether you're running a video game, you can be doing it on your computer. And then the blockchain's just verifying you it's done
correctly and just settling. So you mentioned it, the ZKVM that you guys wrote based on knock is is much more efficient than the other ones. Yeah. Is that particularly relevant because of the cost of generating proofs? Or like in What's the most important consideration for efficiency when it comes to ZKVMS? All right now, yeah, that's, that's a big question. So yeah, ZKVMS are really good for scalability, block chains and they're also really good for
privacy. That's one of the other one of the other big use cases. So in terms of in terms of efficiency considerations for ZKVMS, So First off, you have to understand ZKVMS are really two parts, all right? So they're two parts. The first part is you can think of it as which circuit are you running, right? Are you running the Knox circuit or are you running the RISC five circuit? Are you running the Cairo circuit from STAR from * Quare? So it's really.
And so that the technical term here is and of course different, different, different ZKVMS will make different technical decisions about things. But the technical term here is going to be that's generic for all of this is the interactive Oracle proof. OK. So you're going to have your circuit which is going to be modeling some interactive Oracle proof for expressing some particular computation. And so the question is, is so you've got your first part, which is which circuit are you
running? And for Starks, that's going to be a randomized arithmetic intermediate representation with preprocess, which is a crazy acronym, but they shorten it to wrap. So with the Stark, you've got your wrap and that's kind of the front end to your ZKVM. So it's which circuit you're running. Then on the back end, you're going to feed that circuit into the the ZKVM back end, which is your polynomial commitment
scheme. So you've probably heard about Starks, you've probably heard about Snarks, you've probably seen the term trusted setup. All right, So when people are talking about that kind of thing, they're talking about the back end, they're talking about the polynomial commitment scheme. And so there's really two areas
of optimization. There's the front end and the back end of the ZK view, and almost all the research has has gone into optimizing the back end, how to commit to these polynomials, and that's where most of the trade-offs come in. So do you have a trusted setup? If you do, then you can get O of 1 verification. You can get these itty bitty proofs that have O of 1 verification. Really tiny, really, really efficient. But you have to trust the setup was done correctly.
Otherwise they can prove arbitrary statements or you can be a transparent commitment. In other words, there's no trusted set up. You're only trusting pure math. And in that case, the most common, the most commonly used thing on the market is, is, is Fry, which which is what Starks use. And so that's, that's going to be a transparent commitment scheme. You don't have to trust anybody. It's pure math.
And and with those you have larger proof sizes depending on how large the computation is and how large the circuit is. So to answer concretely, there's trade-offs. It depends. But the smaller your circuit is, the more efficient you're going to be able to do the computation, which is going to make proving faster and is going
to make this proof smaller. And so those benefits of having smaller circuits and of having better asymptotics for for building them are going to matter no matter what, no matter what back end you're going into. So the work that we've done into making the knock, the knock CKV and the knock circuit really, really efficient is kind of timeless in a way, because it's like the core cryptography that we can then that we can use as a module and put into whatever back end we want.
So let's say they make this, you know, super new amazing proof back end. You know, let's let's say Ligurido. It's like a, it's a funny thing from Bain Capital where they made like Liguero, which is another one, like they made it really small. So they call it Ligurido. Like let's say that's the best thing. I don't know if that's the best thing. We can port our circuit right into it and we get and we get all the same efficiency speed UPS that we get right now, but in the new back end.
And so we spent all of our time working on this on the actual circuit definition. OK. One thing you mentioned as well, which is worth diving into, I think, is that, you know, NOx chain is a proof of work chain, but the work are ZK proofs. Now, of course, that is an interesting idea because in the end, the idea of useful proof of work has been around for a long time, right?
Like early on, people like, oh, you know, Bitcoin's very cool, but all people the miners do is to create these hashes and these hashes we don't have any function except like mining Bitcoin blocks. And so of course, the idea was like, well, what if all these miners have to do some work, but that work has some other external benefit and value besides just mining blocks. So can you explain a little bit how are the ZK proofs that are produced by knock chain miners?
How? How can they be useful? Yeah, that's, that's a great question. So it's really hard to design A useful proof of work puzzle, which is why we haven't seen many, many, many attempts at it really. So the the fundamental traits that you need for a proof of work puzzle to be a secure proof of work puzzle are First off, you have to be able to verify that the puzzle was completed way faster than you can do. Then you can make the puzzle in the 1st place.
OK, The reason for this is that you want it to be hard to spam invalid puzzles. OK, so you need to be able to throw, you need to be able to check that the puzzle was done properly, really, really fast. That's the first thing. Then the second trait is you need it to be amortization resistant. OK, that's a more complicated phrase, but what it but what it means is, is that you don't want to be able to reuse work between attempts.
Each time that you do an attempt at the proof of work puzzle, you want to basically have to start over. And sometimes you can't get all the way to amortization resistant, but you want to be as amortization resistant as you can. And so for instance, when, when, when the ASIC boost vulnerability was published in in Bitcoin that was an amortization exploit is that they were able to reuse some of the work that they that they were doing between, between attempts.
And so bit main was able to go way faster than they should have been able to relative to using the standard algorithm. So you have to be able to check, you have to be able to verify the puzzle really fast. You have to be amortization resistant at least enough. And that's what you need for approval work puzzle. So, so this is one of the reasons, so the fact that you have to satisfy these traits in order to make a useful proof of work puzzle at all.
And then of course you need to try to make it useful. This is one of the reasons why it's been so difficult for people to kind of do generalizable work and proof of work. Now, fortunately for us, ZK proofs actually satisfy a lot of these traits. OK. So it's a lot more expensive to make a proof than it is to verify a proof. OK. So that's one of the first things that make it viable to make a ZK proof of work protocol
at all. And then the second thing is, is that if you work really hard, you can constrain down the circuit of your ZKVM enough so that there's only one valid circuit, one valid witness for any given computation, which means that you start with a computation, you can only make one proof with it. OK. And if you can only make one proof per computation, it means that you have to start over again if if your attempt fails at the puzzle. OK, so that gives you that
amortization resistance. All right. So ZK proofs can can be made into valid proof of work puzzles. And so then the question becomes, which is exactly what you're saying, can we make that useful for something other than just the proof of work competition? Well, luckily the answer is yes, you can make that useful. So as I mentioned, NOC is a Turing complete VM. You can compute anything with
it, right? And so the important point here is, is that because you can compute anything with it and the algorithm for verifying the proof of work puzzle is just verifying the proof, you would be able to to theoretically provide any type of verifiable work as a proof of work puzzle
result. Now in notching today, in the first version that we launched, we Tony and Cheek called it Dumbnet because it was kind of like a minimal shippable protocol, but it's, it is a useless proof of work puzzle right now. It's only used to incentivize increased proof of capacity and the and the global performance competition around optimizing the NOD CTV, which I think is very useful background incentivizing people to make ZK proofs faster, which is useful for the whole industry.
But in making the actual proofs useful individually, it's it's actually not that big of an upgrade because. Currently they're they're. Making one proof per attempt, but they're making, they're making a proof of basically a fixed computation. Now you can imagine that that it sure would be nice if instead say they were data availability sampling proofs. Like, let's say they're
providing some useful. Service of data availability sampling, or let's say they're providing a proof of transaction inclusion in the blockchain. Well, luckily, there's a whole area of research by, by a, by a wonderful cryptography PhD Aki katas researching exactly this. How can you make ZK proof of work useful and, and how can you understand and bound the security characteristics of it? And so there's, there's some wonderful papers on this that he's published.
We, we were really pleased to, to, to collaborate with him actually on getting, getting our research paper published on the NORCKVM last month. But he, he's spent a lot of time over, over the past, you know, many years publishing papers on exactly this. How can you make ZK proof of
work useful? And so he's got a proof of necessary work paper that describes how you can, once you have a AZK proof of work that's secure in a Nakamoto consensus model, how you can actually use it to provide proofs of transaction inclusion and actually use that to power the chain itself. So you could imagine in that model what the the chain, every proof that you're doing as a part of the proof of work is actually a proof that you included a transaction in a block and.
So the transaction processing. Is the thing being proven in the proof of work? And so the idea behind proof of necessary work is that you actually scale the chain with the proof of work competition. So the more. Compute power that's going. Into the chain for securing it it's also powering transaction processing so of course you know how much compute power has gone into Bitcoin that's a lot of compute that's a lot of energy imagine if you were able to take
that energy and. The speed that. And the speed and thorough put of your chain was proportional to the amount of energy going into the proof work competition. So do you think the demand? For because I, I guess I can see different avenues where this DCK proofs could be used. I mean, one of course would be to basically say like, hey, look in the blockchain space, there are people using ZK proofs, you know, kind of all over the place.
You could go to them like, hey, you should use knock ZK proofs because then you can basically earn some revenues in the form of knock tokens and, and you know, maybe they're also more efficient and faster and stuff like that. But you know, especially you have a sort of, you know, economic interest in adopting Knock ZK proof. So I guess that's one. The other one would be more focused on ZK proofs to power. Knock chain.
Itself, like do you feel one of those directions did do both those directions exist and are you more bullish on one versus the other? Yeah. So I, I. Would say I'm more bullish on using the ZK proofs to actually power specific capabilities of Nachain itself. So.
For instance, proofs. Of transaction inclusion so that transaction processing scales up with with the with the security budget proofs of data availability so that you can provide basically data availability sampling at scale through the proof of work competition for something like a temporary BLOB store like you'd see from Etherium I I'm really bullish on these use cases and I think that I think that the ideal situation is that you end up where knock proofs have have
the competition to generate knock proofs from the ZK proof of work has generated such a massive amount of prover capacity that individual knock proofs are extremely cheap and efficient. And so there there would be no reason to. Even pay the protocol for the knock proofs you. See and so the the service would. Be actually the proofs are just powering the protocol and you're really paying for settlement, you're paying for data availability, etcetera.
So you guys launched? Nog chain in May, How did it launch go? Yeah, launch, launch was. Crazy man. So let's see yeah, that was, that was such a crazy time. So many sleepless nights. So yeah, we, we launched Nog chain. We, we wanted to get it out the door as fast as we could. We've been, we've been trying to get it out the door for, I don't know, like a year. And so we finally had had tested it enough that we were like, look, the whole thing works.
We just got to get this shipped, get it out the door. We can keep iterating on this forever if we want to, but we're just going to get it out and, and, and do it for real. And, and So what, what we intended to do, as I mentioned is, is we didn't do a pre mine. So we, we launched it to the public and we want Nochain to stimulate a global performance competition around optimizing ZK proofs. And so the way that we kicked this off was we had published in multiple, multiple of our pieces.
Hey, you know, the, the, the first Bitcoin reference clients, they, they weren't optimized either. People, people quickly came on the scene with GPU's. People, people did this optimization privately and there became this big competition and almost like war around around optimizing and and doing better in the proof of work competition. And so it's of course.
It's 2025. Now, right, very, very different from when Bitcoin launched, when Bitcoin launched, only a few people even knew what hash cash was right and now everybody knows what cryptocurrencies are. Everybody knows what mining is and there's actually entire like massive server farms that all they do is they just wait for new proof of work coins to launch and then they just go mine the heck out of them and
then dump everything, right. And, and so we, we thought to ourselves, how can we make the fairest proof of work competition? We, that we possibly can in 2025 when there's all this like hostile sophisticated compute ready to be deployed and just like, you know, be mercenary and take everything in the dump, right? What, how, how can we, how do we do this right?
And So what we decided to do is we decided to launch, basically we decided to open source a few weeks ahead of launch A and, and we published and talked about this in Twitter Spaces for, for like, I don't know, like a year before we launched. So we've been talking about this for a year and, and we've put out there what our business model is going to be everything. So what we ended up doing is we, we launched a slow reference
client. So it's like a faithful implementation of all the algorithms. It's like, you know, if if you take this reference client and you optimize it and you write them and you make the code go faster, it will mine you a bunch of knock. And so we published this a couple weeks in advance of launch and we said, hey guys, start optimizing this.
And then we published a, A blog post and said, listen, like just to be super explicit, our business model, because we didn't do a pre mine, our business model is we're doing acceleration on this. Like we're, we're making this go faster and we're going to be mining this with a fast client from day one. So if you want to get tokens, if you want to get knocked, you you need to optimize yours too, so you can be competitive and. And so then we launched on.
May 21 and we had this insane flood of user I mean there was there were 10,000 nodes join the network in like 30 minutes. It was crazy and, and, and we, we got, we got started and what we discovered was very, very quickly was there's a massive community, particularly in Southeast Asia of, of minors that. Try to join.
You know, proof of proof of work projects, particularly fair launch projects have that have a lot of interest in them and that our communication around our strategy had not gotten to them either through the language barrier or because they mostly were listening to YouTube tutorials about how to set up the note or or whatever. Like they basically weren't engaging with our material. And so they had no idea that they needed to optimize the minor to be competitive and so.
We were, we were kind of floored. Because we got like this massive burst of attention just in the week or two coming up to launch and we kind of had no idea that it was going to be the way it was. So we got out in front of it to the best of our ability. We said, hey, guys, listen, listen, if you're, if you're just running the slow code, you're not going to mind any blocks. You should, you should like go get some Rust guys and write some faster code so you can be
competitive. And, and honestly, it pissed a lot of those people off, but, but the strategy worked. So we, we got a bunch of really amazing developers and a bunch of like really dedicated and like interested guys from early bit tenser. We got some people from, from who kind of came over and started a company who were exurbit people. We, we got, we got these various groups of people who who kind of like came to the call to adventure, if you will, and they optimized their miner and they
got competitive really fast. The first block mined by a third party miner was block 11/23. And since then, you know, like right now on the network, we're only mining 30% of blocks and the other 70% are totally unaffiliated competitive miners. And we're only like 40 days into the protocol. So like basically it decentralized super fast. And there's these different companies that are competing on the protocol and I've talked to a lot of them and a lot of them
I guess I haven't talked to too. But basically, people optimize the code and we were able to use this as a strategy to get a bunch of really useful values, aligned people to join and gives and basically direct all of the early token rewards to people that are actually going to work for it and not people that are just kind of coming in trying to get an air drop. And then like, you know, they don't care.
They're just like here to because they think they're going to get rich quick and they're going to jump out, you know? And so, yeah, launch was crazy, man. I had no idea what to expect. Yeah, it's definitely very cool. How? That ecosystem has emerged so quickly there and how you know these different companies and I know some of them as well are are involved there. So you mentioned that, you know, right now it's in this kind of dumb net phase. The the the proofs of work are
not useful yet. What are the next stages in the evolution of the network? Yeah, absolutely. So. I mean, one of the big things is just getting, getting an E bridge, you know, getting an E bridge set up so that so that, you know, we can actually be connected to Internet capital markets and, and, you know, get
early price discovery. I mean, at, at the end of the day, right, there's kind of this like old, old, I mean, I, it feels funny saying it's the old meta, but everybody in the past few years has just been doing this thing where they like try to get like super hyped up super high private valuations, you know, the Super high FTV private valuations pre launch, then they launch and list on an exchange and then it's down forever.
You know, it's like they, they try to like keep liquidity low so they can like manipulate the market and do all this like shady crap. And that, I don't know, like, I don't know why everybody's doing that. It sucks. Everybody's sick of it. Nobody wants, nobody wants that. And, and so we tried to do the exact opposite, basically like, you know, fair launch proof of work and we want price discovery to be happening as fast as
possible. Because at the end of the day, like, you know, you live and die by the incentives. You can't like cheat the incentives. You know, if your protocol sucks, you know, no amount of like high FTV, low float shenanigans is going to help. And so, you know, we believe in what we're doing. We're, we're aligned around, not chain long term.
And basically we want early, we want, we want to see what the community does and we want to see what happens when you connect, when you connect to, to broader Internet capital markets. And so that's one of the, that's one of the first steps is just like, you know, getting, getting connected to, to the rest of, to the rest of the market. And then from there, we're, we're going to be adding hash time locks to support atomic swaps rather shortly.
We were currently working on temporary BLOB storage so that we can have knock chain start providing data availability
services. Ideally what we want to do is, as I mentioned, we want to move towards off chain execution and on chain verification in an app roll up model where applications are issuing tokens on chain and they're they're able to perform logic and, and do a lot of work off chain and use BLOB storage on on the chain and, and, and use the lock scripts and composability through intents to interact with other app roll
ups. So you didn't have your game or your or your club or whatever executing off chain and then and then interacting with assets on chain. So that's that's. Where we're, that's where we're headed. One one way to think about this is it's basically. It doesn't really make sense to try. To like scale your blockchain by just centralizing and having it like do more and more replicated
wasteful execution. What makes the most sense is to have as much execution happening off the chain as possible, but have the chain acting as a central coordination layer for all of that off chain execution and providing composability between all those off chain institutions. And so we're doing that through intents. And luckily we're in the UTHO note model. And so that's, that's how you do intents.
Basically is is is by having these individual notes be able to be interacted with independently and then be able to compose atomically. And So what? We're moving. Toward is. Towards providing data availability to the chain, starting to provide these like very basic D5 primitives like atomic swaps and and then moving towards programmability. OK, OK, so. This is another topic I wanted to talk about. So what is it going to look like to build applications on top of NOC Chain?
And how does it differ from, let's say the Ethereum paradigm of how, you know, you create like utility smart contract, then people can send transactions to interact with these smart contracts. Like how is it going to be different for NOC Chain? Yeah, absolutely. So. As I mentioned, NOC chain uses the Note model, so UTFOS and So what that means is that every note has a lock on it and so you. Can spin the note if you. Can unlock it.
So the most common way to think of this is if you sign if you sign it then then you can spend it if your key matches right. That's the most simple possible lock script. Now another lock script is a time lock and. So that's another one. It's like you can. Spin it after ever however so many blocks. That's another kind of simple lock script, but the the idea behind intents is that you can build more complex and more. More semantically meaningful. Conditions for spending points.
So for instance, I could say I'm willing to spend these coins if you trade me 100 USDC for them. That's a pretty complex condition and if you have these like swap. Conditions as an example, that would be, you know, I'm willing to swap these coins for 100 USDC. Then you can have solvers be going through all of the, all the notes on the chain and saying, wait a second, I can, I can make money by unlocking by unlocking these coins and giving these guys their hundred USDC, right?
Like I'll, I'll make that swap. And and so the idea of course here is that you can actually use the locked scripts as the contracts. And so the way to the way to kind of understand how this relates to notchain is notchain allows assets to to compose with each other through locked scripts. So you can have assets interact with each other through locked scripts, but the execution is happening off chain and being submitted to the chain. And because notchain is a ZK native chain, we expect.
That for all these. Like complicated lock scripts, instead of having to like execute these complex computations on chain, what you're going to be doing is you're going to be verifying a proof of the lock condition on chain. So for. Instance does that. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense. I mean one.
Thing I'm curious about here is in terms of the capabilities is that, you know, on Ethereum, you know, of course have like, you know, lending markets, things like unit swap, you have dolls, you have a lot of different types of smart contract applications. Do you think that this approach that Noxane is taking, is that going to be like as powerful? Yeah. It's going to be as powerful.
And what what we're seeing a lot of today is particularly for complex applications, a lot of a lot of a lot of complex applications are actually moving on to their own custom stacks and. You. You and I both know that. A lot of those customs custom stacks are just Cosmos. But but, but look, a lot of these, a lot of people are moving over to app chains. When when people first started pitching app chains, app chains
were not far along enough. Like basically, app chains were hyped before app chains were ready, but app chains are how these large applications are going to scale, period.
And regardless of what chain you're talking about, whether it's pumped up fun on Solana doing their own chain or, or, or, you know, Robin Hood deciding to do their own chain, whatever specific products that are going to do really, really large amounts of, of transactions, large amounts of data moving through them are going to be executing on their own. Whether we call them a chain, whether we call them an app, it doesn't really matter. They're not going to be executing in the main chain
state machine. And So what we're doing with Knock? Chain is we have knock apps. Knock apps execute off chain. OK, if you want a central limit order book, you're going to run, you're going to run it as a knock app. If you want your AMM, you're going to run it as a knock app. If you want a lending protocol, you're going to run it as a knock app. It's going to execute off chain, but it's going to have locks on assets on chain. And so you're going to
basically. Post proofs to the chain and those proofs can unlock and move funds around. And those and these. Different apps are going to compose on chain. OK, so all. Of the actual assets are on chain, and so as apps post proofs, they're going to be interacting with each other through the chain as a central coordinator, but the chain's not doing the. Execution it's just. Coordinating and composing the intent matching. Very cool. Yeah, I think that is a very.
Powerful approach, you mentioned that you guys are building, I think decentralized exchange. Are there any other products that you guys are planning on building? Well, so far we've seen the. Community's been building a bunch of products. So I'm aware of another company, Southwest Pool Supply that I, I love the name. It's so funny, but Southwest Pool supply, they're making, they're making a mining pool on, on NOC. They call it NOC Pool and and they've made an explorer.
It's beautiful. You should look at it. NOC blocks.com, I got to say, it's not amazing metrics on it, showing minor decentralization, showing the supply schedule. I mean, these guys probably did a better job than I would have done. I mean, it's, it's beautiful.
It looks great. I, we've been seeing a massive amount of, of, of work starting to go in from companies that, that just sprang up basically like, you know, we're like, we're not paying these guys, these, these guys, these guys are just doing, doing the work because they believe in the vision that they want to participate. And the proof of work protocol incentivizes them to get their hands dirty and actually work to, to create value. And so for now, we're, we're focused on building up the
protocol. We're focused on on, you know, building bridging on building and we're going to be working on doing a decentralized exchange probably probably starting in the first half of 2026. And, and yeah, we're not, we're not doing, we're not going to try to do like every possible product all at once or something. We want we want to like basically what? Is it we want to? Pick our shots, you know what
I'm saying? Yeah, Yeah. You sent me a document where you talked a bit about L1 tokens and what makes them valuable and you sort of put them into two categories. 1 is the store value asset. The other thing, revenue generating asset, you know, I guess Ethereum would be one that you know, I mean it kind of maybe fits into both pockets as well, but like it has that revenue generating component too. So where do you see knock fit in in this framework?
Yeah, absolutely so. I, I've been, I've been writing about this and thinking about this for for a while now about how to understand and and create a valuation model for L1 assets and placeholder conveniently scooped me a little bit.
They, they published something yesterday on where they actually talk about, they don't the, the, the, the thrust of their essay is a little bit different than than what I've been thinking about, but they, but they make the same dichotomy that, that I've been looking at. And so I was like, I was like, damn, I got to publish this Then, you know, I, I got to get this out of here. Like this is crazy.
So the, the idea is that you can understand blockchain protocols as being either primarily value storage protocols or revenue generation protocols. And it's not that you can't be both, it's that often you're optimized more toward one than the other. And so the way to think about this is a value storage protocol is a digital gold. It's like Bitcoin. And it, the idea is it's a neutral store of value there. You're a credibly neutral
protocol. You're not doing things like reversing hacks and giving people their money back. You're very censorship resistant. It's very difficult to, to change your social consensus. You have an immutable supply schedule and if someone buys the asset that it's provably scarce and they know what's, they know what they're getting into. And so they know that they can buy it and that basically it's going to be a, a, a hard store
of value. It may fluctuate and be volatile, but it's going to be scarce forever, period and so. Bitcoin is is the best. Example of of the digital gold that we have today and of course we see we see a lot of the narrative around sound money resonating and and pitching this exact thing and and so Bitcoin is kind of the preeminent value storage protocol today and one of the things that makes this dichotomy really useful is well the way that.
You would value. Something like a digital gold or a sound money is just fundamentally different than the way that you would value say like Tesla stock, OK, Like Tesla stock is valuable, right? Or I don't know. Like Google stock. Or open AI stock like these things are, these things are valuable. We agree they're valuable, Everybody thinks they're valuable, people want them, but but that's not a store of value. Just as something's valuable doesn't mean it's a store of value. OK.
So this is where I kind of bring in the the differentiation around a revenue generation protocol. So on crypto Twitter, we see a lot of talk about the the revenue meta and this idea that we should kind of value protocols in terms of their ability to generate revenue
through protocol services. And so the idea here is that there's kind of this dichotomy of these two different centers of gravity that protocols are naturally attracted to of whether they whether they're primarily a value storage protocol or whether they're primarily just providing services as a protocol that they're generating revenue through. So as you.
As you mentioned. Ethereum, right it it does do some of both it it serves as a medium of exchange and a unit of account for the L twos and for the applications that use it and and and does does rather well for it in relation to the actual or I should say that the valuation of Ethereum is rather high as a multiple of the revenue it generates. And part of this is because of the network effects are on the way that it's used as a medium of exchange in a unit of
account. We can look at it kind of an alternative example of a revenue generation protocol of Celestia. If we look at Celestia as a revenue generation protocol, well, they really don't have any value storage capability. They only really are valued in terms of their revenue generation. There's not some big. Network. Of applications that are built on top of Celestia and using Tia, their token as a medium of exchange or or otherwise treating it as a store of value.
And they basically like people basically only value Celestia in terms of the revenue that it generates. And so you can see the actual value of Celestia and the value of Etherium make a lot more sense when you start to understand the difference between valuing something in terms of revenue generation versus valuing it in terms of value storage capability. So as you mentioned.
Ethereum does have some of both. It does have some value storage, but it is primarily a revenue generation through its data availability services, through its smart contract execution, etcetera. So and of course it was the first programmable koi. And so as a result, of course, it was able to develop an A wonderful network effect and it's widely considered the you know #2 asset. So the idea of, of course. Behind this is not.
To say value storage or revenue generation that that either 1 is good or bad, it's to it's to have a mental framework for being able to value these assets appropriately. So I'm going to pause. Does does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely then. Nice SO. In terms in terms of NOD chain, NOD chain is primarily a value storage protocol. NOD chain had no pre mine. Nod chain has an immutable supply schedule.
NOC chain is scarce. The only way to get it, at least right now is, is through mining it and taking part in this, in this hard competition. And so NOC chain is going to market not not as yet another general purpose application layer where we're going to like where the whole focus of NOC chain is on bringing developers onto the ecosystem, right? The the NOC chain is going to market as a store of value. NOC chain is going to market as a digital gold and.
So the way to understand. This is not that we are against revenue generation. As I mentioned, we're building out data availability services. We want you to be able to do programmability. But the way to understand it is that the the frame for for the core economic center of gravity of NOC chain is around a scarce value storage instrument.
And so all of the revenue generation capabilities that are going to be built over time for data availability for programmability are about increasing the monetary velocity and the usefulness of that digital gold. So the framing that I that I've kind of used and that I like is that notchain is programmable sound money that scales so with. Bitcoin it has. Practically no revenue generation capability whatsoever. It's only a value storage instrument.
The blockchain fees from moving transactions on Bitcoin are so minuscule as as as a percentage or as as even like just any yield that of course people hypothesize at times about the idea that Bitcoin if it's if it's price doesn't go up at a fast enough rate that eventually the the block rewards will go so low that they won't actually serve and justify securing the protocol because. It doesn't have any revenue generation. Capability as a protocol.
And so the way to understand this, I think, is that it all the. Protocols that have been launched. Over the past seven or eight years have as I mentioned been really focused on being proof of stake, pre mined coins that are marketing to developers saying we're a better Ethereum. They're all revenue generation
protocols. Primarily and. So Bitcoin is really the value storage protocol today and I think it's silly to think that there can't be others particularly that have differentiated characteristics and so not chain. Is a value storage. Protocol that we intend to build in revenue generation capabilities over time. OK, cool.
I have. 11 more question here. So quantum computing is something that's, you know, coming at some point and, you know, there's some concern about, well, I mean, expected to break a lot of encryption. What do you think is going to be the effect of quantum computing on ZK and on maybe knock chain
in particular? Yeah. So quantum computing's an. Interesting topic because it's it's one of those things where every like everybody wants to be safe against quantum computers, kind of like how you want to be safe against natural disasters in earthquakes, but. There there is an open. Question of how, how you know, let, let's say you don't live near any center of geological activity, how, how likely is it that that you're going to be
struck by an earthquake, right? Like probably pretty unlikely. So I think in a similar way, quantum computing, I think quantum computing is becoming more practical over time. I, I think that over time it's probably going to be able to do more stuff. Some of the breakthroughs and, and being able to use quantum topological techniques to get more and more stable configurations of qubits are,
are rather interesting. But we're pretty far from being able to implement Shore's algorithm and actually get a speed up, you know, practical implementation of, of any of these attacks. That being said, of course, it takes time to upgrade protocols and it makes sense to plan in
advance just in case, right? So Starks, depending on the the hash function that you're using for your random Oracle, are already plausibly post quantum secure and and so algebraic hashes vary in in their in their security against these types of attacks. And algebraic hashes are the ones commonly used for for securing and and making ZKVMS go
fast. So the reason is, is that because they're algebraic, you can model the relationships between the hash functions more easily in terms of polynomials, etcetera. So Starks are plausibly post quantum secure depending on the hash function you use. And of course you can switch out the hash function reasonably easily for something like Blake three if you really need to. So there's a pretty easy path to taking to taking notching to be post quantum secure because we have built on stars.
The the main piece to think about would be the signature scheme. So signatures and and making making sure that we have an upgrade path to a post quantum signature scheme. So notching is not currently secure. Against quantum attacks if. Something just popped on the market, but we'd be able to upgrade. We're we're not using any.
So if we were using a trusted setup as an example, it would be a lot harder to to be able to like it would be an open research question as per how to make it secure. But we're not we're we're in a transparent scheme using very battle tested cryptography. And so the the path to the path to being totally post quantum would is a is a lot clearer, particularly on the timelines that that we would need to be thinking about, which is like a decade. Cool. Well.
Thank you so much for coming. On Logan, that was super fascinating. I do think you guys have launched one of the most original and unusual networks that has a lot of like, you know, radical design decisions you guys have made. And and it's it's just like it's certainly one of the most novel things in crypto right now. So I'm really excited about seeing the Nocturne ecosystem evolve and it feels like it's off to a great start. So thank you so much for coming on.
Thanks for the time, Brian. I appreciate it.