Hi and welcome to episode of this is episode 391 with guest Michael agar off. So I'm Brian Crane and I'm here with my co-host CK. Now, before we going to talk about Mike with Michael about curve Finance, which is one of the automated The market maker, protocols has gotten the most traction. We want to spend a minute to mention a few sponsors. So there's pair Swap and /. Swap is a great way to trade tokens on chain pairs up. Just came out with a big update and it's even faster more
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Like what's what's been your journey and especially kind of like you journey to becoming involved in the crypto space. So you're basically my crypto Journey started in late 2013 with by and little bit of Bitcoin. At the time I was doing a postdoc and physics after receiving PhD in physics and shortly. After I actually went to the United States to work in, tech industry at LinkedIn and the time and I've learned a lot of a lot about crypto at that time as well.
And and actually started the company which it was not doing crypto called 0 DB which is now called new Cipher and its operating in crypto. So anyway, that's kind of how it started and but what I'm doing right now is quite different and that is because I actually become quite a heavy, defy user starting from late 2018, I guess with Makers are and I always had this problem of swapping between stable coils all the time because I was doing that on coinbase and that was not quite
effective. And at the same time, I was doing some some trading bots in this kind of created, the idea how to swap between stable coins effectively and that's that what started started curve finance. And in the beginning 20/20. I've finished implementation of my algorithm in in Viper and the basic UI and the started curve dot Phi. And basically, what we have today is a continuation of that. Maybe let's start by diving into curve directly here.
So do mine for people who are not familiar with curve. Can you explain how curve works? First of all, from the perspective of somebody who wants to trade and, you know, let's say with your example of like, you know, swapping different, swapping different, maybe stable coins. Oh, right, right. Yeah. So currently the primary purpose of of curve is exchanging between two coins of the same denomination.
Most notably US dollar stable coins, like use DC and die, for example, but also, there are BTC denominated coins. So you can swap between BTC and BTC and even if denominated coins for example, for example, if well really And you know, state to theorem staked with Lido. For example, that's also a popular use case.
So and basically you could you could swap for a reason of what's a, what's a, if it's if you want to interact with makers, all you probably won't die and if you have USD see, it's probably a coin which is easy to redeem to your bank account and that That could be one reason to swap. Or for example if you want to go from your aetherium to stick to theorem, you could also do it that way or maybe the other way around. That's kind of from the from
Trader perspective. And on the other hand, there are users who deposit on into curve pools, and they earn trading fees, and also CRV tokens and maybe some subsidies by the protocols who sponsor the pool, And that's kind of the yield you get as a depositor in the pools. That's how the liquidity gets there in the first place. Yeah, I should actually also add this disclaimer here, which I meant to wish is that I do use that as I've been with my company, kind of very involved
in lighter. So I'm you I'm doing exactly that at the moment, right? Where I put a lot of my effort into like I do and then got the stake it out and then put that into the curve, pool between Eastern State ether so and have a having that process also earn some CRV. So have also some of the Just opens at this point. Now with, I guess, one of the essential things around curve
right? Is that, you know, if you compare it. So you know, you have basically this function know where you your trading, not with a counterparty, like so it is not like, did the counterparty is kind of like a smart contract and then, there is a function that determines the price can you talk a bit about how that works with curved and what's special? so, in this regard for curve, Yes.
So basically, what is common for many for many of the automatic market makers is that you have some liquidity in all the coins involved. And let's say you, when you swap from coin, a to coin b as you the user buys a little bit of coin be from the pool and the pool gets also more, of course, a the price shifts a little bit, so that coin B, which gets bought becomes a little bit more.
That's it. And then the so called bounding curves, they describe how this pricing changes different, protocols have different bonding curves. For example, unit swap, to has constant product bonding curve, which is where the pool basically rebalances, the Holdings. What we did? We kind of concentrated, liquidity around the price 1.0. That's where the liquidity is mostly. Needed but then it's kind of smoothly going down to as you get away from from the price 1.0.
So basically when you are close to 1.0, you get the highest depth of liquidity, but let's say, if the price changes a little bit, let's say it becomes 1.01. You have the depth being a little bit less and The Rock. Boo parameters, which Define how tightly are you concentrated around this 1.0 price different assets? May need kind of different concentration of this. It depends on the asset volatility. For example, stable coins, like use DC and USD TR very, very
stable. So you can be very, very dense around one price 1.0 and something like steak teeth is expected to be much more volatile. So, so, you we need to be to have liquidity a little bit more spread out, but still much much tighter than kind of a universal relationship, which unislope to social swap or balancer has How did you come up with this design in the early days? The stable swap paper. It seems like a very elegant solution to specifically, like, low volatility pairs.
What was like the process from like ideation? How did you realize this was a problem in the beginning because you were working on new Cipher at the time. And how did you go towards the design? You have now? Yeah, as I said, the problem itself is was kind of easy for me to figure because I was a heavy defy user, and I always had this problem or swapping between die and use DC pretty much.
So, that's that was one thing. But the question, how, how to come up with a with this mathematical relationship? It was interesting as well, because firstly, it was it started from a graph. Like wandering curves can be represented by graphs. So, for the simple constant product idea which was already out.
You are, the graph is basically a hyperbolic, and I first thought, like we that the part which is close to price, 1.0 should be flat and but not necessarily like completely flat, because if it's completely flat, and then you kind of, you have kind of in finite, Depth, so, and basically, I first I started grabbing it on paper and then I started thinking what would be the formula which corresponds to this graph.
And also this formula should be not very complex because if it's too complex than I wouldn't be able to solve it in a smart contract and not eat all the gas and yeah. So that's basically how I came up with with the design and the formula for this. So when you're looking for a flight, you go to a flight aggregator to see all the different places where you can buy the fly to get all the options and make sure you get the best price for your travel
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Give Paris swap at try, at Paris op dot IO, / epicenter. And from what I kind of understand of Unis, lot V3, is that it allows you to recreate any graph in price space, including, you know, the stable sort of graph Yeah, in principle correct? Yes, it does allow you to create such graphs. Piece-by-piece something like a spline where you basically users can create the pieces of this point and deposit liquidity into into those pieces and in principle, that's, that's actually good.
I actually had the same idea in early 2020 as well for volatile pairs on. Till I had some other idea which I'm currently implementing which I think is fully automated, so it's better. But even like, if we talk about stable coins, one key difference is that we are able to quickly change these parameters without users redeposit in anything. For example, imagine that you have one graph. Well, just an example from from maybe a week ago.
Had liquidity A force take teeth with leader being let's say, spread approximately within like plus minus 10% from the price 1.0. But it turns out that Ste if is actually very very stable. So we are able to provide liquidity, much better for it by concentrating it tighter and we did didn't have to ask users to kind of do to redeposit liquidity in To whatever ranges. We just made a doll. Proposal, to increase this, this amplification coefficient how we call it parameter by factor of five.
And over one week, this liquidity becomes Tighter by a factor of 5. Basically, as we speak, it's it does. So very great you lie in if I remember correctly. 5,000 steps, that's absolutely kind of To the user. So basically as we as we speak in this episode, The liquidity in that pool becomes Tighter and Tighter without transactions, becoming more expensive without anyone redepositing anything anywhere. So in principle of these analytical solutions, they allowed to do that quite cheaply.
So they are superior in that. Regard to two units, what we three approach, although I definitely can can see that. That units will be three approaches allows for like, very high levels of customers ability. May be at the expense of being a bit less convenient for liquidity providers, so they should be quite professional. Sounds like Yeah, that is fallacious really good.
So I think it's not easy to wrap your head around you know this entire like all the mating market makers and exactly how it works right. But I think one one way that I think it's interesting to conceptualize like why are
automated markets makers? Interesting is if you if you take an exchange, traditional order Book Exchange like Finance then they are of course, Mark market makers there and you know these are like professional Firms right to the dodo, putting maybe bit orders here and ask all this in and they're watching other exchanges into updating them and they're providing liquidity, that way and they're also earning money that way.
But you know I can't do that because I don't have to knowledge infrastructure you know and so what you're what, but then with curfew basically saying okay we have a program that does it and anyone can give money to the program and now you can be a market. Make sure anyone can be a market maker and then actually with the unit swap thing you're almost going into with the V3 thing, right?
It almost goes into a little bit of this hybrid thing where well, anyone can provide money to the market makeup, but there's a lot of parameters to choose and maybe to change and update so that like you know you can do it better versus curvy still sort of in the yeah. Yeah so if you explain units what Three in these terms. It's almost like a traditional like a traditional exchange but instead of having discrete orders, you have a continuous or your book.
So instead of orders, which probably date back to, to, like ancient times, where you had to write orders in the in an actual paper order book, you, you can actually have them continuous and and that's how it should have been when computers appeared but that wasn't the case until units for three.
I guess. But really I think this is an improvement over traditional order books but still like the level of skill required to provide liquidity in general for volatile pairs over there is I think the same. So you kind of In traditional order books, you just had to put I don't know a ladder or folders right to Sometimes and on Eunice War III, you just have to spread liquidity from Price a to price. Be for that, that's certainly an improvement.
But to like to, to figure, where to put your liquidity like that, there is a considerable skill required. And like, just to give you an example, imagine that I am providing liquidity for aetherium, right? What's a theorem price is at that a 3,000. So and I've provided liquidity from now, three thousand to three thousand and one hundred and it works well while with your room was there, but then when price went up, I'm left
with with dollars. So, okay, I take dollars and provide liquidity in a new price, but if I do that, I'm kind of losing on only Theory. Mm going up and the same with whether it going down. Let's say, imagine I provided Pretty 84,000. And then it dropped to three thousand. I am left with ethers which were at around 4,000 made a little bit less and then I was back holding those while the price drops to 3000 so I'm losing
again. So that's kind of what he what happens if you do everything naively so it's a powerful tool but naive liquidity provision probably doesn't apply to you Mike. Make money over there. So that's kind of that's a problem with the that but that's also a problem with centralized exchanges and but yeah Market making the firm's probably making money so they are probably skillful skillful enough to to do that.
And I think they are the users that they would be the best liquidity providers for Eunice. 4 3, Let's get to our sponsor Solana now. This is specialized for me to read because I've been in deep supporter of this project since meeting this Lana team back in 2018, I invest personally in the project and my company course, one is super deeply involved in this Lana, you can System including running the biggest validator. So, what's so cool about Solana?
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automated market makers. Are, you know, this kind of like fundamental Improvement, fundamentally Superior to traditional order book exchanges. You kind of like, say, the similar thing here. Can you explain why you think that's, because Basically, they are pretty transparent in what's happening.
You pretty much know that they they will do the right thing what they're programmed to do. But also from my observations automated market makers can be, can be probably not worse than what, traditional market makers called can do, while being not custodial, so they can amass much The community and maybe it may be traditional market. Makers. Would argue that they are markets are more effective than than Eunice walk to or balancer, which is true, but for cryptos.
But also, I think it's possible to do much, much better for cryptos, at least. At least we will try to prove it. In that vein, what do you see as the long-term vision for curve? Where is curved and 5 years, 10 years. And what use cases is it is it allowing, I think we're currently currently started with stable players but I think if we go a little bit beyond that, we probably would allow fully automatic creation of very effective, crypto markets or foreign exchange markets.
And like who knows which like how much we can replace traditional order book approaches. But I think that's not quite can happen to a certain degree. Got it. So do you see it?
Like kind of going into Unis Wolf's territory, little bit of allowing any arbitrary exchange between any pair of tokens or Yeah, I think that's that's of course a sensible thought, but because you are talking about 5 and 10 years, we may talk about, I don't know about stock markets about foreign exchanges about like all sorts of exchanges which are known traditionally. Because I think the story here is bigger than little one D5
Project work. Was the other, it's it's about whole defy space, capturing the traditional Finance Market. This is probably a good time to mention that. I'm, you know, disclaimer also a curve user and and token holder as well, and have been participating and following along with this journey. Cool. This is this is one of the things that I've also like wandered about because we've automated market makers, you know, like curving units who are like getting these like enormous
volumes. And when you've seen how they have taken, you know really substantial market share at this point from you. No centralized crypto exchanges and no centralized crypto changes still like your good products, right? That they work. Well, like user-friendly can make an account easily. Positive money easily like so much better than traditional financial institutions, in many regards, but I still you seen on
chain. You have these automated market makers, take substantial market share from that. So I have also kind of wondered with like is is that at this point this kind of like Breakthrough success of of crypto and a blockchain that it has you know better Market. Isms. And you know, whether that is going to be the thing that will really sort of Drive the orgy, inroads towards taking more market, share you know, from traditional Financial systems, like you think that's okay.
So do you think there are going to be other drivers that will be critical for this kind of transition? One thing I would say that it's not necessarily indeed like that blockchain activity kind of takes quite a bit of centralized
exchange market share. But also we've seen by Nance, kind of successfully solving this problem with by Nan smart chain, which is, which is, yes it is centralized But it is centralized with the central Authority being financed and not the services which are built over there. So it's basically, if you do it on a centralized exchange, you couldn't give some trading firm money to trade non-custodial, and but on something like on a on an exchange chain, you
actually can do that. You can do like money to trade to To some decentralized service and that makes a big difference even if the chain is controlled by the exchange, and yep. Still the theorem is better in like my view, but as we can see, it's still quite successfully The Exchange chain can can get some some bit of market share. So that's kind of the evolution
of that model. Awesome, wanted to shift, gears a little bit to maybe a little bit of a different direction, but seeing, you know, Swap and Sushi swap, how do you think about your modes? What do you think about Fork threat forks, and general or, you know, projects that are very similar, like saddle? When you think about curves long-term success? Yeah, there are, there are many
ways to establish this mode. One is, if you look at how quickly Forks were created, it took some time to understand the mechanism, how the market making works and on curve, it's, it was a little bit harder to understand that than constant product. And this gives a little bit of time to Like before Forks starts appearing, I think probably units of three because it's quite a bit less understood by people who maybe who my Fork. So maybe it has some of this
mode as well at the moment. Another way is probably good Takin economics. I think, I think our talking economics is probably good for for kind of keeping the competition away as much as possible. And another thing is, it's probably, it's probably good to allow the forks, but in such a way that they benefit the protocol, I tried to do that with with a few Forks, we'll see how it goes. But yeah, that's that's another way. So yeah, but it's still kind of
experimentation phase. So we are looking at a different ways to either, preserve the dominance of the protocol or to get to get it done. So that if Forks appear, that the same people pretty much owned part of the fork. Ex stuff like that and we will see what works out. Let's get to our sponsor, Exodus Exodus is a fantastic crypto currency wallet, that strikes the right balance between ease-of-use security and great features. You can get Exodus on the iPhone desktop app.
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Well, I think it's kind of probably quite easy to understand in a naive way. You can have pools learning all the fees for themselves. So let's say you deposit into the pool and all the exchange fees go to your as a liquidity provider. But, you know, Market is not very stable. So sometimes these fees can go up by a factor of 10, then drop down that we've seen that. So It's good to introduce some sort of inertia there and we introduced that by doing basically talking emissions.
So some of the token emissions, go to the pool liquidity providers, but some of the fees go to to the doll, which means basically the talking holders or well talking lockers if to, to be more exact. So we have this, this Loop Oop where CRV gets fees. And those who would have, who basically paid parts of those fees, they get CRV and if the volume trading volume goes down, temporarily well users. Still get CRV. But when it goes up and see
where we get small fees. So this kind of this allows the protocol to operate with a higher long-term stability. You know, we still would need to see how it goes over and over a bear Market. We still haven't seen that. Yeah cuz you basically you have to Feast at the like volatile and then you have the curvy words and the curvy words are based just on like the volume in the pool as opposed to the
trading volume. No, actually not that curve rewards are split proportionally between liquidity providers. And the amount of cover words is determined by the Dow with so-called wait voting. But anyway, these the speed of cover words coming in, doesn't depend on the volume which happens in the pool but really, it's voting over the Dow which indirectly is inspired by How much volume the pool is making. So basically imagine that some pool is very popular and it gets
a lot of trading volume. And then, let's say down, participants say, oh, looks like this pole is area. This pool is airing, quite good money, for the Dow. We probably should vote for this pool to get more CRV. So if it gets more CRV, more users will put money into that pool. And, you know, it will get even more volume because there is a high demand and we get more fees. So, that's kind of how it works. It's not a very fast feedback but that's actually good.
Because this makes basically returns for liquidity. Providers. A little bit more stable. Kind of going back to a little bit of an early discussion that we had earlier was about kind of the future of curve. What's the next step? Like when do you think that you'll have like kind of your response to yunusov V3 or curvy to or do you have any plans currently can give us a sneak peek of what might be in that as well? Well, I guess it's not changing anything for stable coin pools.
They say stable coin, pools are probably good as they are. But we probably would need to expand into different asset classes. And actually, the work over there is very close to to launch in that. So so that's yeah. Basically expanding too, volatile Pairs. And we want to do it in fully automatic. Mated way. So not requiring liquidity providers to do that much of the manual work, and it's a challenging thing.
So we will see how it works. And it's challenging because you probably make find a lot of research where people tried to to do automatic market-making in like non defy world. And it's it's hard. It's hard to do effectively and we kind of what that research tells you is that it's almost impossible to do to do it too much more effectively than what we've seen with units for v2 or balancer, right.
That we want to kind of kind of defy this this common wisdom which existed before and and show that it's actually possible to do it much more effectively than before Essentially saying you saying that. So I was under the impression that actually automate market makers have only really been
used in crypto and in defy. But so have there been no significant usage of research into a MM outside and in rural areas, Of course, of course, I mean they are called trading Bots and trading Bots are quite quite there, but you don't really want those trading Bots who I don't know, who look at some crocodile figure on the graph and decide that it's time
to buy. But you actually, you're more, think about trading Bots, who create markets and there was, I'm sure market-making firms use those That's just I guess that's the way but also there was a lot of public research about that and if you if you read that you probably may get an impression that it's it's super hard to create anything useful. And yeah we will we will see if we can do better than all of that research. If what we created is better.
Another question that I had was, what is your thesis on good governance? So, you know, the curve token is both a way to incentivize good behavior in the protocol but also like fundamentally governance token and different projects have taken different kind of views of what good
governance is like. I think, you know, you know, swap is kind of like trying to governance minimize and make sure that any governance improvements are really Vital, and key, and important, and other, protocols may be urine, are much more kind of move fast and break things. It seems what do you see for curve? Specifically, as like ideal governance and the ideal Dow structure in the long run? Well, I mean the current doll is specifically designed to to be a good doll in the long run.
One of the ideas is that you probably want to the voice of long-term chocolate holders, rather than rather than those who can buy token, vote for something and then immediately immediately exit. So that's why we have so called volt lock mechanism, where you vote lock CRV And you get, you know, the higher governance power, the longer you look for and you can look for up to up to four years and that's what most people actually do. And we kind of think that
participants in the governance. They actually aligned with the future of that platform. The long-term another thing is that our system is quite modular. So you You can replace certain modules based on the governance vote, but at the same time, you cannot change the code. So you just in Governor's, even if governance wanted to, it wouldn't be able to take a users users funds. So, use our funds are sacred. You like even governance can
cannot even plausibly. Get to those, but governance can make Visions about like what I do including future pools and some some modular functionality, which we allow not everything we even used. So, some things are kind of programmed into be used in the future. So it's a kind of a mix of immutability and flexibility like up Altamont. Ultimate flexibility would be replacing every any code, but we kind of I think it's unsafe to do even for the governance. So we are taking the approach
where the code is immutable. And you just, you know, governance votes for new things and users can think whether they want to ape into into new things or not. What about the curve like community and ecosystem today? You know, what does it look like? Is there a lot of participation or people? You know, are the only two places to make like governance proposals as well? And like, what's your vision for how you want the curve ecosystem to evolve, human governance
wise? Yeah. Governance wise or just sort of in, you know, in the the way you want, the community to organize and to Evolved to protocol as well. Well for evolving the product call, it would be, of course, good to expand to other Chains.
It's a good question. If governance can expand their but pieces but you know having different pools on other chains and you know having all the money flows going across chains, that's definitely possible and that's definitely something but what governance can vote for and yes. So I think that's one thing. Would you see what you see CRV having the kind of same function even if curve was deployed on on
on several chains? Yes. Yes, but I think there is there still should be one place where all things concentrate currently, it's only theorem right? But like let's say we can have pools on but we actually do have already pulls on a pool on polygon. And also couple of pulls on Phantom, and we just got admin fees from polygon back to curve down, and it worked, and we can get CRV, from, from etherium two, polygons in. That can be, can be controlled
by the doll. Like how much that pool gets dark and leave on a theorem, but the pool is still over there on polygon. So that's an example. Example, and this sort of scheme can work with multiple chains. Multiple layer 2, s, or like whatever will be used for scaling etherium. Shifting gears a little bit wanted to talk to you about your thoughts on like the kind of security of curve. You know, this is a long-term project with billions of dollars I think like more than seven
billion dollars of tvl. So how do you think about security and especially in like the decentralized context were code is being written by many different people. How do you think about security and ensuring that? The code is always extremely high quality readable and and secure. Yeah, that's that's a good question. We took probably approach different from what some projects have. So from our observation, most of the errors in the code are coming from the developer, right?
So it's really up to the developer to get the good cold quality. Yes, you can say that Auditors can help to get code quality. Better. That's true to some degree but also Auditors, don't see absolutely everything and they can miss things.
So how to prevent that, I think the best way is to have all the code very, very well readable so that like it's, you know, the focus should be on readability and for that, we use Viper language because like wipers much much more readable than solidity by Has at least and that ensures that we ourselves can can see can see things and our code still sometimes. We don't see them immediately but we cannot notice them much faster than if everything was in solidity.
So that's one of the things. And of course, salinity is a much more mature language which with more Also, in that regard, one could argue that it's as a language, it could be safer. But given that most pairs they don't actually come from the compiler. Most errors come from humans, the focus should be on readability and of course which true for all projects there should be very good test coverage. So automatic testing is is the
Mast for smart contracts. In fact, I think Smart contract code takes, maybe 5% of all the lines of code, maybe less, and everything else, is automated tests. So for those we actually do quite Advanced things with brownie. For example, you could you could basically and, you know, it all the all the actions Which smart contract or maybe external contracts can do. And then you can let this tool to select different actions.
At random with random parameters and explore this parameter space trying to find some violations or basically some errors. Something, which you don't want in your behavior. And if that happens, it's kind of raises a flag and you say, oh, there is something in the code which we need to fix, right? And I think this way actually is able to come up with flash loan attacks for For example, like this sandwich attacks you can they actually simple.
So I think I think proper automated tooling can find them automatically One last question, I wanted to ask was kind of legal and Regulatory, you know, how do you think about the legal and Regulatory questions around curve? Whether it comes to, like, Securities laws for like, curved token itself. I'll, you know, allowing people from different jurisdictions to use the protocol and also just like, how do you think? Like what are the biggest risk?
You see to like General, defy regulatory landscape as well. Rod rod. Yeah, so that's that's a very good question as well. The rod different themes, which are going in regulatory space in the past. It was mostly activity by a sec and security tokens. And I think with CRV about at least in my opinion, is quite
simple useless. Are we talking itself is not doing any function, which is looking like a security, but if you lock it, You get some something called ve C RV, which is, which allows you to vote in the Dow it receives profits from the Dow. So it's kind of well feels like a security but we CRV is not movable. You cannot move it. You cannot trade it. It's like only sitting in your wallet and when it's unlocks when it becomes CRV, again, then it doesn't have that
functionality. So Some in my opinion we ecrv is a security but because it's not movable it's automatically it automatically. Satisfies all the security laws and CRV itself is just I think utility talking, but yeah, but sec, I think is quite friendly to crypto projects these days. There is also a question about into it, like International
money, transmission initiatives. Like five that that could be tricky for defy because they're trying to regulate what what is not very much possible to regulate. Probably some common ground will be found that over time. But yeah, so like for example, if they say that all projects, should should filter users or whatever, it's just not possible
to do with everything deployed. So everything deployed just In use to exist and nothing can change that they could as well called italic and ask him to do that and he couldn't do anything, right? So if we think from from the basics of what are the goals of that, the goals are to protect users and to prevent criminal activity when it comes to protecting users. I think the biggest threat in Defy is very different from traditional Financial World in
traditional Financial world. The biggest risk is Counterparty risk. So let's say, basically, if you put money in a bank, how can you make sure that this bank doesn't run away with your money? Of course, very heavy, final Financial regulations are there to ensure that with defy if well it's of course, a risk, if it's a custodial protocol, if if the team has admin Keys which allowed to take the money, but if it's not the case, the biggest risk is actually Really
the code quality. So I and I think eventually we will see a lot of regulations around the code quality and how the projects can ensure that users are safe in that on that front and with criminal activity.
That's actually also interesting because actually block chains are very transparent and it's fairly easy to see where everything goes and that Probably doesn't make cryptocurrencies the best, the best tool of criminals, they do try to use that and they many of them fail at that and I think at the moment at the moment, cryptocurrency is involve less of a fraction of criminal related transactions than traditional Financial system or at least I've seen that kind of
information published. Anything else that you kind of want to adhere you want users to know about curve, or before we we sort of wrap up. I think, I think we're quite covered everything. And yeah, I think it will be pretty exciting time. Now, we have a bunch of new stuff to publish and yeah. If if the listeners can follow that, they probably will hear quite a lot of interesting things. So cool. How do I potential listeners and users? How do people get started and learn more?
Of course, they can go to Curves of fun. Just starts using it. We have also resources that curve that Phi with, with all the guides call to use curve with for one other purpose that I think those those would be the best places to start. Cool. Thanks so much, Michael. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find a subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you
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