This is epicenter episode 483 with guests Louis. She's good and him apart. Welcome to epicenter the show which talks about Technologies, projects, and people driving decentralisation and the blockchain revolution. I am going to take a chance. And today, I'm speaking with bluish G skin to my art who are the founders of gelato a project which makes blockchain deaths. Lives easier, through Automation
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It's super nice to have. You buy a both on Lewis and Hammer. We go Way Way Back. So pretty early on in your web three Journey, you guys got the Grant from the noses ecosystem fund but we'll get to that. So maybe maybe tell us about yourselves and who you were before you know, before blockchain and how you guys met.
Oh yeah, hi, hi Fredrik. Is, of course, first of all, thanks for hosting us. You excited to finally be on the Fe set up Podcast. I remember still listening to it when the bear Market times, 2017, 2018, and of course beyond that. So, so awesome to be here. Yeah. Maybe I can start giving it like
a quick background. What we actually, how we came into the space and I think, as a sort of context, what is always interesting for me to looking back is like, we are Like post-financial Crisis sort of generation after 2028. And I think this sort of had a quite the impact in how we thought about financial systems. And why we we were very eager 25. And with retain mode came around
to sort of participate in that. And the reason I we met I think we have like quite the same same Journey, the two of us so so I can maybe speak for the both of us. We met in high school actually. Ready in the UK, and then both studied in London. I studied Finance, Lewis politics. He focused more like the game theory side of things and now we then went to Berlin because we both had sort of like the the dream to become entrepreneurs,
Founders doing our project. And so we started to to learn the craft in that sense in Berlin in Berlin and at some point is Master's degree there as well.
And they're actually we met a colleague of ours who was working at MasterCard and he kept talking about blockchain back then, I like 20 2016 and so on and got us quite excited about it. And at the same time, the Dow started and I read this article about it and was super fascinated by it. And you have we've participated in the Dow and we, I remember we had to buy. He's on crack for the first time when I was like eight. Dollars. And I was like, what is this
either? Just want to participate in the Dow and yeah, that's sort of got us hooked. So so we were like, Ethier and natives. We didn't we kind of skip the Bitcoin part all together and yeah that from then almost just the red, little wrote Our Master thesis on my Crypt, I think Louis you on, put it on a u.s. consensus algorithms and yeah, then we actually sooner fell Master. We started working at a start-up
in Berlin, that help. Jake's like pick European based projects such as by on of artists or others experiment with like blockchains and eat evm, private networks and they have we helped build those up but they are five blockchain things were I think a bit early back then and I got the boring.
And so we decide to just like, get out there, go back to research, learn more, the in-depth, engineering of everything, I've participated hackathons that we went to like three, four, five different hackathons all around the world. Old just started building and it had this idea about this Steve application that we wanted to build which was like a landing protocol on top of the Dutch eggs that we wanted to build. And I think the sort of like ties as in very nicely into how
we met you and the noses team. And yeah, then we remember we we sort of started applying for for Brands like the gecko one and yet this is sort of in how the whole journey officially started, I guess. I think you may have been our most successful gecko Grant receiver. You actually submitted a proposal for something called instant DX and I actually checked it out last night. Again, it's actually. It's pretty cool. Do you still remember what it was about?
Yeah, yeah, totally. Also, I thank you very much Frederick you for hosting us. I think he'll mind, I completely share the history of our private and business lives of the last 12 years. So I don't have any everything I do, he doesn't. Yeah, and vice versa. So so yeah. So actually I do remember the instant, the X quite well, which is it was Houmas and my sort of first solidity project other than hackathon project before. And we, we basically looked at the Dutch X, which was a really
cool idea back. Then, as always noses, was very early maybe even too early with, with these great Innovations. The Dutch expose a decentralized exchange diagnosis. That was based on a reverse Dutch auction mechanism. And one of the things there was that users or participants in the auction would have to wait 20 up to 24 hours. I'll be for clearance and then they would have to come back and remember to withdraw their proceeds. And there's, of course, wasn't very great ux.
It was very slow. You had to wait, you were impatient? So we were then thinking, okay, how can we sort of make this better, right? And the first idea? We had was actually very deep fry. Yes, it was basically having a pool of liquidity to front the proceeds of the auction. Cause you I think you were able to at least by a margin sort of deterministically, have a guarantee of roughly, how much I use. I would get And yeah, we would then instantly X was, I was basically fronting this money.
So you would be immediately able to withdraw a portion of your proceeds. And then yeah, that actually turned as well into thinking about automating the withdraws from the auction. And that's really when we stumbled upon the great problem. That is smart contract Automation in the constraints of an evm. And that's how we then realized. OK, actually automating withdrawals. And so on is actually, quite it's not built into The evm, it's not supported natively by a
theorem. So how how do we do that? And then we realized wait a second. There's a, there's like a whole need here for generalistic automation protocol to allow a smart contract, applications to be automated to have automated processes, and that's how we very quickly. Then stumbled upon gelato. I believe, we already rebranded from instant.
The X2 gelato in May of 2019 and started the grant as gelato back, then with our first mission to automate withdraws from the Dutch X. Yeah, I think it's super important to kind of remember that this was four years ago and basically all the things that kind of seem like common place. Now back then they were they were cutting edge.
So, as a space, we've we've come quite quite a way but kind of the fundamental problem or one of the fundamental problems with smart contract, automation, kind of boils down to the fact that smart contracts don't do anything unless they're poked, right? Right. So when you can't really say, if this happens to that, then basically, if that has happened, someone needs to tell the smart contract paycheck, again sort of thing. So can you talk about that problem that you're trying to
alleviate? Yeah, maybe, maybe I can. I can start losing a few feature jumped and of course. Yes. I think the Foundation of problem that like gelato or like the initial mission that we want to solve his mark on track automation, was that that the the protected blockchains the processes? Run on evm. Blockchains like a theorem are a
finite. So if you want to execute certain business logic, which you encode in a smart contract, let's say you want to transfer funds to, to a friend, it's a everyday for Then these then you define the sort of logic within a smart contract. And then the actual business logic of that smart contract is actually only run if someone sends the transaction to it, right? And so, if you think about what automation is automation, is, sort of, okay? At very granular intervals.
I would like, like, preferably at every block. I would like to run the sort of logic that is in the smart contract to then determine whether to send the money to my friend or not. And then they also like to Options. How you can achieve this on an evm blockchain one is you just send a transaction that every block to that's for contract, right?
Which of course, is not really feasible because we all know there's the spam protection mechanism was having to pay gas for it. And especially when we start on the theory on which was completely infeasible because of a transaction can cost like $20 if you're unlucky. And so the other way of doing this is actually to have this sort of off chain Computation Network that does that
simulation for you? Not on Shane but of chain and then, once your conditions are met and can be fulfilled on, Shane it actually will execute and send the transaction on your behalf. And this is basically what the, the base problem was that we wanted to solve, but we wanted to solve it in a generalistic way. We started with the sort of withdrawal issue, but then we realized, hey, it's not only the Dutch exit has a problem. If, You want to do a limit orders on you.
Nice word for examples. The same problem if you want to do liquidations for Lending protocols, it's the same problem. So we realized that defy, especially in defy at the beginning is like a the the use case array is just infinite. And so that's why we started them building this General 26 solution for it.
Gelato kind of boils down to kind of you know being this Marketplace but in principle you could have also just offered the service you know as as an infrastructure company writes I mean there's plenty of those out there whom you can just contract and they kind of run you know, the devops side of you know you know the blockchain business for you. What kind of drove you to kind of building this very
generalistic solution? So basically, our mission here was, to bring smart contract automation, without trading off the core properties of where three like self custody in our private keys. So one way to achieve automation, is by giving up access to your private Keys, giving up access to your crypto assets, whatever they be and give them into the hands of a service server company or something and day, then execute transactions for you from your
account. But that would essentially be like what banks do nowadays, right? Like, they control all of your assets or Facebook controls, all of your data. And that's how they can actually bring Automation and web to which is which brings these very cool web to use experiences. So we have three the problem was okay, how can we have automation while it's not you know, forcing users to give up custody over their funds and so on and that's why we With a smart contract protocol.
Before we even build any servers, we first started with a smart contract protocol gelato V1 which had some very like, I think, now functions that have been copied as well a lot and so on, like, it was sort of set, its own standard of smart contract automation with these angers and functions can exec. So, can I execute here on behalf of a user and then exact and during the onion execution, user and application would be able to Define their own business rules into the smart contract?
Which make it so that, you know, the gelato Bots can. First of all, they don't need access to your private keys. They can execute for you via Smart contract mechanisms and also at the same time, the smart contract mechanisms can enforce certain business rules, right? So that the bot cannot just, I know, for example, in a limit order on uni, swap or on pancakes, what which uses two large limit orders, actually use a like report about can only execute a limit order to at the
right price, right? Like these are very important. Was that are enforced by the smart contract. So that is user as a user. You don't have to trust the gelato about to execute at the right price. Like, you know, that the smart contract logic protects you. And as a bot, you are incentivized to execute at the right price, because then the transaction will be successful and you will get a small reward for it.
So these sort of encoding these rules into smart, contracts was essentially what we started with and that there was like, the first big version of gelato and interestingly, now, we are also looking into how we can Remove the Reliance on just my contracts because smart contracts and blockchain computation is somewhat limited, right?
Like, it doesn't work with a heavy computations on and now we also chipping away at the problem of, okay, how can we have off chain computation, be secured and somewhat like trustless and, and yeah, so we're working on that as well. I want to hear about, I want to hear more about this in a little bit. That's the the private beta that you just released, right? The web three functions, let's maybe get to the to the core of it first.
So you just said that basically Bots do stuff for me if I want to automate stuff. So who controls the Bots and how do I buy this service from them? So, who controls the? But so we have because like gelato gelato notes, right? And from him, and these are basically entities that are running notes for you there. Like, you can think of them as similar as I can in theory. Mm.
Not for example, just with the difference is that they are not validating blocks or proposing blocks and validating them. There are Verifying and checking certain tasks on your behalf all the time and then executing them and making sure transactions get included into the blockchain at the right time for you and then getting getting paid for to do that job, right? So I'm not sure how you pay any theory of note, the transaction fee of of what you were what you have to pay and and who is who
are running this these notes. So, so today and this is actually what we At the very beginning, we will have caused running running the null cells and this was so like the bootstrapping face of gelato gelato was always designed to be the sort of Unstoppable etherium like protocol which tries to get as close as possible to the trust minimization guarantees that is theorem provides at the very beginning. We started very good like bootstrap you inside.
Okay, let's build all the tools first and everything and then get to that point later because the great thing about how we started it with is that the trust minimized, the trust Assumption of a very little because we could enforce it all on chain and smart contracts, right? So the only things you'll have to could really do for you.
At the very beginning was not executed transaction at the right time, but we like we couldn't Rocky or something, you like the little thought, I would still always execute and you would always get the money or it just wouldn't execute right. So. So that was the great thing, how we could start. And also not worry too much about likely centralization methods, as long as we have reliability up time Right? And so we like sort of perfected that process and now I think it will go there.
Probably in a second we're moving much more into. How can we offload that computation that is done by smart contracts to enforce certain data Integrity of like okay what price to use to execute a transaction or let's say what route should I use to get the most optimal Price, Right? These things that are very hard to enforce on Shane. How can we do that in the trust minimized way? Way of chain.
And this is where decentralization comes into play and this is where you have to basically build up a network of mobile operators. That has steak similar to like any theorem proof of stake and follows a certain protocol. That is encoded into the clients that if they break it they will get penalized. And if they follow it, they get rewarded. And this is actually what we are started launching last December. So, so so now, this like a major upgrade. We actually announced pretty
soon. Is already conducted and we already have external node operators running on this network today. For example, station facilities, they're running light or nodes and other dolls father company other projects and by the end of the year. Yeah. It's it should be that. There's no like the Reliance on us. This is very little to none. And at this is, this is sort of where we are evolving towards as someone who kind of wants to automate a process. Do I pick one board provider to
kind of do this for me? Or is it just a generalized pool to which all of the blood providers? Cannot all of the note Runners and can kind of tap into So, you can think of gelato as a marketplace where the demand side is you or like, smart contract applications that need Automation Services and the supply side is the, gelato network of nodes and nodes can offer their services on the gelato Network. They have to run our client
implementation for that. They have to enter their task execution via our smart contract protocol. Where in certain rules are enforced like payouts and so on, but yeah, basically, you can think of gelato as a module that you can plug in and get access to a decentralized market of notes. So it's not just like some people know that we have real apis and they sometimes mistake gelato for a relayer, it's not just a relay, it is a network of
relayer. So it is a module that you can plug into your flow and get Access to a decentralized network of three layers similar for smart contract automation. So you don't have to pick one. You just picked gelato the network and all of the basically what you get out of the box is a coordination mechanism that coordinates amongst a set of
notes. Okay, so I don't have a personal relationship with anyone, gelato note provider, it's kind of like the network as a whole does it give me any basically what Legacy business would call SAS or is this something that it how do I know that if I use gelato for my decentralized back end that it will perform? Yeah, that's a good question. So currently there's no such thing as a laser. So because I mean, we are sort of an open web 3style protocol
that you can use currently. I suppose the SLA is the the Mev that note operators, get, right? So the way the protocol is designed is that for successful execution of your transaction, you have to pay a fee to cover the transaction fee and then some profits. So as long as You believe in like you know, people like it or not operators, wanting to make a profit in this network. You should be, you know, you can basically sleep well and know that someone will go and execute
your transactions at all time. Given that the core premise of using gelato Network the services, there is that you have to pay for it, right? That you have to pay the network for performing the services. So the incentives are designed in such a way, that always, you know, similar to how public Mev works or to Howie theorem Works right?
Like why do people keep mining blocks because they get a block reward and similar in gelato why will always will always be a node executing your tasks while because they get a reward for it. That's completely Fab. So, let's talk about the people who actually run the nodes. Do you have any idea how many different entities? They're ours? Are there any are there? Any requirements? I need to meet in order to run a note so you said like taking providers and so on?
That sounds like very involved. I mean there's also things you can kind of do from a dep. No do so at home, can I run gelato on my deck note And if not what are what, what's the
barrier to entry? Well I think in theory yes in theory you need an RPC so you need a connection to to the blockchain you dislike access to phone up maybe and then you need some server resources, right to run it and this is a like the theoretical part of it. Now in practice of course gelato the so like the client fermentation is fairly diverse and actually complex spy now and especially Since we started off as a, okay, we have this note up known to permutation for smart
contract automation. But since then, it expanded quite a bit and I think we have this very modular microservices like architecture for for gelato clients. So you run like running a running. A gelato note, here comes like different flavors and you can sort of like opt in to certain services that you would like to support. Because we have this automation service which is completely detached from um, the relay service which is completely detached from our new often
computation service. That is actually now coming out. And so it's sort of like depends on sort of what service you want to run. If you want to run like the most simple one which is basically our execution service, which is just there to get a transaction and not even do the computation itself. Just get the transaction and then get it mind for you. Then I would say a theory.
Yes, you can do it in practice because gelato is Or like live on the say, I think over 10 different evm trains today, right? You need like stable are feces with most of them of course you could choose to only serve a theorem for example in and do that and then like later this year once we go live with our V 0 .1 or staking you could be able to just like by some gel stake it and then participate in actually exit into some track transactions.
But then you also have to guarantee some up time because if you're not up, when you're supposed to To a new if you're not executing transactions, get that get allocated to. You adds a certain time, then you will, basically no longer receive transactions for us for like, an interval as a punishment. So, there's like this sort of mechanism in place which is we, we incentivize you to stake
shell. The more you stake, the motors actions, you will be able to execute but also if you get these executions allocated and you don't execute them then you will also not get the next one. So it's all. Like a game of more steak and high up time. So as long as you can guarantee that, then yes, you will definitely be able to participate. You just kind of touched on the fact that I mean, most of these so far. We've talked about automation, right? You're also kind of refer to
relays just a bit ago. Can you kind of explain the distinction? Yeah, I can explain the difference here. So I used to call automation deferred relaying, and because automation is also a form of relaying, if you will, it's this idea that a message in operation, a transaction that a user wants to see, executed is relayed on that user's behalf. So the user Themselves don't have to send this transaction, it's a relay or that puts it on
chain for them. And automation is quite interesting because there we couple this transaction, relaying to a condition, being fulfilled in the future. And that could be a deterministic condition like the passage of time, right? Like every day do something for me or it could be a complex condition that is not
deterministic. Like, if the price, you know, reaches this, then execute for me, that might never happen actually, or it might So so automation, is this a sort of relaying on steroids if you will, where you couple the relaying of a transaction to a arbitrarily user-definable condition on chain and now also off chain.
Yeah. And then, relaying is really, the simple primitive of just sending a transaction and usually, that is in the context of real time relaying and actually, to be honest, it's it sounds quite simple and so on. So that it's literally just saying, hey, put this transaction for me on chain but it on Looks like this much better. You ask for about three users
were now. Technically, you can interact with an application on a blockchain in real time without needing to have crypto funds in your wallet. For example, this is known as gas. This transactions or major transactions, where, where it's great for user onboarding. For example, you can you can use a relay our and a user can then come visit your app for the first time and interact with your smart contract already without needing to go to a centralized Exchange.
First do kyc, and by crypto or something, to be able to send a transaction. So, so, yeah, that's the, but it's a bit more this real-time thing of like, hey, please do this for me. Now, relaying is also really cool for not, just for, for users, but also for back-end Developers. For example, that are multi chain. So for example, connects has been using gelato relay for over a year and basically, they're a cross Chain Bridge and every connects transaction is a gelato
real, a transaction. And for connects, As they call them, it's very beneficial to use our relay apis and relay Network because it makes it very easy to get transactions sent reliably on multiple chains at the same time at scale. So the relaying is also for us at least specializing in the art of you know scalable transaction. Throughput on multiple chains and also decoupling payment like for of native tokens for transactions. Removing this need for developers.
So developers can for example, nowadays with our one Balance system put used to see on polygon, a balance, a ten thousand dollar used to see and then go and have transactions in their applications. Be executed on multiple different chains while only paying from the single balanced on one chain. So it makes the management the transaction Management in the tens of thousands of transactions per day extremely easy. When you use a relay I liked a lot.
Oh yeah. And here again like gelato is a network of relay are so you can think of gelato like as a Entry point for you, real a transaction. But in the background, there's multiple relay us that are competing to execute these transactions. Before we dive into use cases, a bit deeper one final question on the automation. So as a user of the automation, I don't I only have to pay once it's executed, right? So can I can I spam the system by kind of?
I mean, basically, because the the nose they have to check the conditions at certain Cadence is so if I had, just give them a lot of work in checking conditions that may Never be met or that pop that I Engineers such that they're never met. Can I kind of can I bring down the network? Yeah. So, so what you rightfully said is, what is automation, automation consists of two
parts. It's the of chain computation that has to be done and then it's the transaction relaying that has to be done at the right time, when the condition is fulfilled, right? And you're very right, if you created say like 100,000 tasks or a million tiles, they would never execute. You could bring down these sort of networks because Yeah, there's no there's a lot of cost but there will never be a reward. That's why many of like these systems.
And I think this is sort of how we started our V1 designer that they are better or Alpha and we want us out of gelato back then, which is hey, we sort of put this blue, put a bounty up and this bounty will then pay for the transaction. And then it's I think everyone started to like take it and copy it. And now it like it turned into like the standard for spoke only automation but it's actually not a scalable and It is actually quite flawed and that's why we
realize also. And this is this is also what is being rolled out right now. And with our newest release of our basically automate 2.0 or also like what three functions that we probably talked about in a moment, we already redesigned the system to such an extent that they are basically true payments you have to do and and all like that too.
Fees that are being paid. And this is the one fee is for the actual computation and there, it's very like the analogy is very much basically looking at you Outdoors like a decentralised AWS or Google Cloud which is a set of nodes. Not one particular data center somewhere but a network of like self also motivators somewhere in the world, the way your rent that computation for your decent recertification and they run it at the same the runner. All the time as long as you pay
them, of course. And then the execute the transaction at the right time, right. In the execution of the transaction for us is actually done by the executor and the network empty empty in the actual computation by another part of the of the network and there has to be like it's in order to make these systems really sustainable and scalable and work for everything.
You need this sort of distinction between paying for computation and and so this is actually being rolled out Right now as we as we speak but the cool thing is you don't like you don't need to have let users deal with that, right? Similar to how users don't pay for the users on Netflix. Don't pay for the computation of AWS in the background, right?
If you watch a movie there even though they use ATO idea of yes, similarly, like users of, let's say pancakes for, for like a decks, they they are not using, they're not paying for the computation. That is done by gelato. They are paying Cakes for black as 0.1 percent fee, on each limit order gets executed and they pay the computational fee. For example, right? Let's kind of change course here. Let's talk about the web three
functions. First, before we talk about use cases, you are a kind of led into it so how what I mean. So now you kind of you have to pay twice. The payment is split between kind of submitting the automation request and having it fulfilled. Any other updates. Yeah, so what free functions is is I think something we have been talking about for for quite some times. I should also know white paper,
which is okay. Like smart contracts are like it's cool to automate smart contracts and there's a lot of stuff you can do on chain. And we have seen an explosion of use cases, which we can talk about in a moment, but the real cool use cases. And the real efficiency you can gain is when you move the actual computation from on.
Strain and 22 off chain where you can do much more plus if you move the data that can be used to automate, your smart contracts from only being based on on sharing data to then of chain data. And this is I think where it gets really interesting because now, basically what you can think of about like what free functions is, it's like a decentralized cloud function. So it's like a decentralized. A Darius Lambda where you as a developer you go.
And say, hey, I need to query a sub graph for example, or like some API that returns me a list of all the entities that that follow. It have a certain criteria and all the entities that have a certain Rarity for example, right? And what I want to do is I want to check all these entities, if they can be cuddled with. But let's say there's a cuddle function on that, right?
And I have to check whether they can be coddled and And I want to check it and I once one of them can be cuddled, I want to, of course, make sure that they get cuddled at the right time, right? This is like a fun use case and obviously, doing this on Shane is impossible. You can't just query all the all the entities that have, that sort of property and that sort of Rarity. It's like, first of all computational far too expensive
and sector for you. You mostly impossible because there's no good way of doing it. Sometimes certain like data's only, visit my events for example or let's say they You can start on chain like some information, you need to get them from API, like ipss, maybe the metadata is an ipss, and you need to get it from there, right?
So and what you can do with three functions, basically, you can write a type script file, like, rather than writing, the smart contract that encodes the logic, that determines what data to use. And when to execute transactions, do now, right? The typescript file that you compile and deploy to ipss. Now, this lives on ipfs or other data, availability layers that you can choose. Or we can, we'll probably also expand it to other locations later and you get an ID from ipfs out of it.
And then you go to 22 gelato and you send a transaction on Shane. It says gelato, hey, pointing to this ipfs fire. Hey, gelato notes, please run for me this ipfs file that I just deployed there, which determines the logic that I just described, and then execute transactions on my behalf to whatever chain. I want to while providing me with certain levels of Data Integrity that the data that is being generated is being used is actually the same and the in the
right one, right? And yeah, this is this is what you can do. And you can think about it is in allowing smart contracts to access Cloud functions with like a transaction. And this is super powerful for decentralized applications that don't want to like have one company that runs Google cloud or whatever and if they don't
pay their bills. So if they get censored or whatever, then the whole application goes down then Relies on this which many applications do these days and this is basically a way to make them like to centralized process from make them more Unstoppable. That's super powerful. But what does that do to your trust is? I'm shanaz like you know developer who uses this. That's a good question. And and this is also like the evolution and why decentralization for gelato is
now becoming very important. And I eluded the beginning that the beginning, it it was okay because trust was sort of on Shane right now. We're moving to a world where trust assumptions are higher because gelato nodes are a running computation for you that you cannot verify don't chain and you need to, you need to have some sort of trust in it. And so this is, we're staking and the decentralization of our Network. In hand and basically how we are envisioning is that you can Define.
You have some sort of comparing this to other Oracle networks because it's some sort of like you can you can refer to as as like partially like a hybrid Oracle Network and how we are sort of trying to provide users with like like the flexibility of writing these things as much as much greater than what you're used to in other networks. But what you can also do is, you will be able to Define what sort of Integrity, you need for the
data. So for example, you can say, hey I want to have 50 or 60 percent of the gelato nodes that have staked their gel to sign off on that data. And only if they all signed off of that data, Then I then note can take that transaction and execute it, right? And so that way you have 60% of the gelato stake. That does saying, hey, I verified that data and this is actually data should be used. And then of course, if they are maliciously they will be session.
Can be can be penalized for this, but you can also say, let's say my data is not that important, right? And I don't need that sort of Integrity. I don't need six percent of the network to run this computation. I only need two nodes to run the computation. And you could also Define some, some, some lower thresholds here for you. It depends on the use case, but basically, now staking and having a valid data, set becomes
very important. Okay, I think that solves a lot of the problem, but is there some sort of escalation mechanism? So if I'm not happy with the execution, there's some sort of arbitration protocol that I can run because otherwise, what you incentivizing is, basically, someone performs the computation, maybe maliciously, and other other nodes are not incentivized to rerun the computation but can just piggyback, right?
So, basically if everyone agrees and and it's it's It's wrong but no one's penalized then that's kind of. Yeah so can I ask you late as a Dev who uses this Oracle? Yeah. So for that we have right now the gelato doll, right? So we have our dowel right now where users can basically come and and say, hey, this is what was executed and this is actually I rerun the computation myself and this is actually what it supposed to return, which is
not always 100%. It's not easy to make this hundred percent objective because if you talk about generalistic object computation then, Then it's not only a mistake. It's not a monistic, right? I think for many use cases, it actually is, especially if you talk about, like sub graph data, or data from other chains, there it is deterministic. But if you think about saap at Price data and it depends on which milliseconds or note,
queried your price right there. You have to like have some sort of defined aggregation and sort of concert. Jason of the data process defined and this is what we meant with this. Hey you can Define your own thresholds. Let's say you can say a I want these sort of nodes to run this. And they have to agree that this is in a certain range or this is roughly the same in these boundaries. And if it's the case, then I'm
cool with that, right? And then they have to sign it off and send the transaction, right? And if you look back here and you can say head was completely different, then you can basically start this escalation process. Which is, hey, I want to challenge this. And then there is basically the Dow doing his job and, and validating it, and making sure. But right now, like there is stay.
There's no perfect way of sort of doing it for now, which is always deterministic objective and all subjectivity involved at all. So we are taking this sort of pragmatic approach to this. No, it's super exciting. So when it is, when it's is going to be rolled out, Well, actually the beta starts today. So we were rolling out the word three functions beta. Today we're actually also roller so yesterday but today it's going love life but it is first
of all in like a closed beta. So we have roundabouts like 30 projects, 30 projects signed up for it now that will be immediately using it and a lot of really, really cool and amazing use case that I'm super excited for Mike nft, Perpetual stew too. To end of T, lending to decentralize market-making to like a lot of different things. On the use case, array is really huge and the beta is there because yeah, there's a lot of stake here, right?
And data Integrity is important and so we are slowly only onboarding new and your users to the system to make sure we can scale this up secure this efficiently and make it work smoothly for everyone. So yeah that's why it will probably only still be in a closed beta for at least a couple of months. Who is this is a super nice segue to use cases. So, we've talked about kind of like the, the nuts and bolts for the past, 40 minutes.
So kind of hit me with what what has been built with it because it's been massively used. I mean, there's millions of transactions that have been that have been sent using gelato. So what are the use cases? And what networks are they on? And what are what are you particularly proud of? Yeah, maybe I can give a little history, I guess of use cases. And really, what we discovered, four years ago, was that
etherium and other EVMS. Need this generalistic automation, or real a protocol that lives outside of the client implementation of the blockchain. And and really this means that anything can be built on top of this. And we've seen this really happening, like they have been use cases that we didn't force. See. And there were, I mean, it all started with defy because we started to large 1, 2019 and 2019 to 2021, I guess there was pretty much everything was defy,
right? And then eventually nfc's happens, but but it started with defy and and there, I mean, the, the first use case actually we're built by in step by the incident team. So, there are also legendary members of the gelato Club if you will, and they built together with us some extremely complex use cases. Automated depth refinancing. So these were things like I think automatically, for example, automatically moving your alpha position to compound if compound has better apis or
something like this. I think this was the number one use case for incident for a whole wide and I know this is one of the things that I used in to stood up for it was just a single click and basically it just switched everything over it was super neat. Exactly. Yeah and they use gelato to automate this This. And yeah, it was, it was a very heavy on the device side was using flash Lawns and this and that.
And all of these things were checked, basically, like all of these things by gelato conditions, like what flash learn to use whether from dydx or from other or whatnot, and they are. So some very heavy, D5 things were built first. And then actually, one of the first big use cases that we always saw where limit orders of course for am. So, anybody trading on Senators
exchanges? We place a limit order when they bite want to buy or sell something right but on a mems like you nice pop or Kaiba back, then even you didn't have this enabled. So with gelato, we build a limit order, SDK, that was using a smart contract, limit order protocol. And yeah, basically this is how big a M&M's, like spooky swap on Phantom and Quick Stop on
polygon. And pancake swap on be chained or basically, we're able to offer limit orders on their exchange to Ooh, users, which is in the background using gelato Automation. And, and then from there, I mean, eventually once we build our automation, UI and interface slot to automate previously cultural tops and we basically then gave developers a sort of nice way of you know, self servicing them and themselves before I was sort of us, you
know, the tech was ready, like it could be used, but there was a lot of work you as a developer needed to do into. And we also didn't have that much documentation. Technically, you could have used a lot with about anything but, you know, you know how it is. You have to make developers lives easier for them to actually use it. So, we built this. Super nice UI product, where you can come up, touch, allow to the network.
And you can basically start automating your smart contracts with the click of a mouse button, basically, and that really, I mean, that sort of opened the floodgates to use cases. There were so many things launching without us, even knowing that, suddenly we're using the network. I remember algorithmic stable coins using it for for replacing many other things. I'm sure whom I will give some more colors soon.
And then for relaying, for relaying initially, our approach ruling was a bit more back and focused. So, really focusing on how can we provide back and projects? Such as, for example, connects the cross-trained messaging protocol, they're using it with a way to get transactions. Find on multiple chains with high throughput. Like really at scale because that's actually quite hard building, your own relay or sort of to send a couple of
transactions. Hundreds of transactions, every day is not that hard, but going from there to forty thousand transactions. A hundred thousand transactions per day on many different networks. Reliably, that's then really hard and that's production software. So, we sort of started with that and then has been successfully used by connects for over a year without any problems. And and and recently in the last half year or so we also focus a bit more on the UI side of
things for relaying. So gases, transactions, account abstraction. All these things making it easy to unboard web to use us and not so much the focus on having. I don't know a throughput of hundred thousand transaction per day for your back-end application. But rather having these cool user experiences where as a user, you can interact with smart contracts without the need of having crypto in your wallet and so on. So, So there there will be a think I have some exciting news
cases launching soon. Yeah, for example, and we're talking to a betting site or noses chain who want to make it so that users first time, users prefer them to users can come and place their bet without needing to to have crypto in the world for example. Super cool him? I do you want to add to the landscape of projects building on gelato because if, if not, I'd like to talk about account abstraction but Louis kind of insinuated that you would that you would want to add some color.
And as we heard earlier, your kind of, basically the same person, so I assume, Louis knows what you want. I think Louise already covered a lot. I think maybe to a God, there's like we are things that I personally didn't anticipate all these nft use case because we are both from like to defy world. But about suddenly we seem like tens of thousands or hundred thousand transactions from like nft rentals. For example, I don't know, like I didn't know people rent.
So many and of teas, but they're like these entire NFC rental market places. Now, where you can get an NF T, you can literally get the energy into your wallet, but say like a board a for example, and then you can do something and then gelato will out of like there's a fine. In the transfer from function. There's like a condition which is gelato can get this nft out of your wallet in seven days. Again will draw it back to the original owner and this is like
happening. So literally smart contracts are all of the entities are given to you in the next drawn, back it, but gelato and this is happening every day, like tens of thousands of times on polygon and B&B chain vnd and and stuff like that. So these are things that Beyond like makeout are using it for like their collateral management and Like stuff like optimism for topping up sequence or nose and stuff like that which are use cases.
We have seen very early on. These are like ones that did read. That really surprised. Me personally seeing rent a monkey. Yeah, I think, I think what both film and I were quite happy and proud of is that we really saw the, you know, one, one guy team developer using this up to, you know, the blue-chip defy projects, like other Make our optimism and in San source of really, it's for everyone who is so it kind of traction.
So, I think a lot of our listeners will kind of know this in the context of VIP 4337, this is actually something that we're working on together. So, not we as epicenter, but me has no surface. And this is kind of finding an implementation for account of traction without protocol level. Changes just using real Ayers. It's incredibly cool use cases and actually can see. So we are committed to kind of rolling this out or no sustained.
And I would kind of assume that this this goes well and kind of is taken over by other chains as well. So can you explain to me how it works? Yeah, so I can instruction really is the concept of trying to move away from having users interact with smart contracts with their externally, on the count and rather promoting that they are interacting with the smart contract wallet. Based as my contract based account and that these are the two accounts that are available on aetherium.
One is created by your private key, and then the other one you will have to Deploy yourself. Let's say the Naza saves is probably the most prominent example of a smart contract
wallet. And the cool thing about it's my contract while it is, I like to compare them as one is like an old-school Dalek where you have like this wooden a key that you get in and then you can scan to kind of like access we're free and then the other ones like this digital door lock, if we have an office here where you can program people to just like come in for like a day or so or you need multiple people. All to sign off to enter the building for example, right?
And so it's a programmable wallet. It's my contract was a programmable what'd where you can encode Advanced functionalities, for example, that you can make transactions be fully gasless on behalf of users without having to change any smart country code anymore. And this just greatly improves. The ux of users that are, especially better getting on board two or three.
And yeah, that is this whole array of like And feature sets that you want, for example, gases transactions, account recovery but also in Walnut automation, which I think I'm sort of most bullish on construction. And Yeah, we actually sort of experiment and been building a construction stuff. Since the very beginning gelato was actually started off as the module for the nose has saved. This was our first implementation of gelato and it
was it was virtually. Hey you have your smart contract wallet and now you have like I can add on to the smart contract while to make it really, really smart and it could, it can automate, it can execute things on your behalf when you're not there. This is for me like a smart wallet, right? And we actually deployed knows the Cézanne our at first, your eyes back then and had like had users interact with our application, using their noses.
Safe as a proxy, which is exactly what account abstraction wants to achieve and sort of enshrine into the protocol a bit further. I am with this ESU 437, for example, which basically allows provides people like a public entry point who dented and say, Hey I want to interact with a certain application and they can Define how they wanted to act how they want to pay for it, for example.
And then there's this public entry point where you can't do so. So at this is account abstraction and I should, but there it's a very broad topic. So there's a lot of different parts you can go into if you want. Yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a super big topic and I think I think in terms of kind of making web three usable for Nummies, this is really something that kind of we need to hit.
Because I mean, the current onboarding experience you need to be able to onboard users with an email or similar, even if that means lower, trust assumption. You just have to be able to switch it out later. The users will be able to switch it out later. But, you know, this experience where kind of you, you download meta mask for someone and then, then you say I'm not. By the look. But you have to write down these 12 words and you can never lose them.
So replicate them, you know, in many places but you can also never show them to anyone. So replicate them never. It's just it's a lot of mixed messages and people don't get it. It's just, this is not how we're going on board. Like the next hundred million people are. So right and until EIP 4337 actually comes, if it comes, I think it'll be an uphill battle in terms of Pretty complex. And you know, backwards compatibility and such what other things are you excited
for? So I mean, with the web three functions, you kind of you radically enlarge the possibility space of what can be built using gelato. So what are the cool things? You kind of you foresee, and what are you excited for? Yeah, maybe I could start at Lee Lewis, feel free to add stuff and so I think maybe tying it back to the account abstraction for me, this all sort of for me I was gelato especially I see all these things converging at
some point. So right now to provide users with in sort of these Advanced automated services or use cases, let's say a limit order on pancakes for or let's say Learn with like, hey, we always give you the best rate, we're whatever or other you, other use cases, what you always have to do, is, you had to build entire smart contract, protocols, which logic is solely based to provide, this sort of automation, for users in a way where they can say, they just
have to deposit their assets into like this pool. And then from this pool, a limit order gets executed, or from this pool, The the it will be invested in the best yield generating protocol or whatnot. And mostly the reason why we have this is because you can't automate transactions from the users. What you're a wanted, right? So other than getting their private key then yeah. You basically on their money, right? So if we can as a community push this Concept of a construction
and smart contract wallet. Then, what we gain is, basically what I call in wallet automation, which is you don't need to build all these protocols anymore. You can just tie your money or your funds in your wallet to arbitrary off, chain data computation or on Shane verifiable data and computation, which allow the for example, and can start getting the best yield everywhere. Straight out of your wallet, you don't have to pull them
anywhere. You don't have to send them anywhere first just straight over your water. De Deus things think about like games for example, right? You can build like you can play strategy games where you run a script that interacts with your account on your behalf or with other people's accounts on their behalf and like direct their actions and like a Pokemon world. Like, for me, I see NPC's non-player characters. All of them will be like a smart contract which will attack you
like. So your Pokemon game, you walk through the grass and suddenly Pokémon attacks. You, it is like a text function there and then gelada cents a transaction. The Pokemon comes the text, you and then is like a battle and you fight the Pokemon. Even if you might not be at the machine at the time, you define the strategy beforehand and then you can alter it over time. So I think they're with the construction plus automation, especially leveraging data from off chain.
I think you just Full like you 10x or 100x, the possibilities that can be built for with free and it all ties a very nicely together. So I'm super excited about like how this and I already see a couple of use cases and projects building. First things like brahmas building basically like a urine but based on those who say it's using gelato in the background. So I think I'm super excited about these type of use cases. And they tie everything very
nicely together. Yeah, one of the big things that I am excited about is basically a whole new web, three user experience. We all were three natives here. I know I've known you for four years of video dica. So you were definitely very early and probably you are used to using M masking sound, but but you also mentioned here that
it's still very cranky. When onboarding new users, it's still always like, every time I on board, a friend, or family member it I realize how bad it is and that it will never be mainstream because it's way too complex. And one thing that we have to hand to web to is that the user experience is, there are really great, A lot of times.
And and yeah, I think we have to achieve parity with that and web 3. And if not even surpass it and web three, we have created these amazing back-end technologies that make developer experiences. Great, right. That you can build your own bank, you can build whatever like with a bunch of lines of code. But on the front end on the UI level on the mobile app level, it still is very immature. It scares people off its clunky, it's kind of horrible, to be honest.
So what I'm what I'm really hoping for now that as we move up, the stack a bit, and we sort of provide Technologies like, the relay apis that we have account abstraction smart contract, wallets to front end developer. Is that we finally have a better front end to a 3 as well. Not just a good back-end and and hear what I'm looking out for.
Hopefully next Bull, Run is that we don't have these things where you definitely know that this is a web three side where you log in, with me time, ask you connect, to some RPC, everything is slow. You can't do anything because you don't have Kryptonian wallet, you have to go visit three other places now to get crypto to do to configure your wallet, to write something on paper. And And stored in a save or something, right?
Like all of this should be gone and hopefully we can build web three applications, where users don't even know that they're interacting with with three only the developers of that site and all because they're using the power of what P Technologies to build, amazing back ends to build amazing applications without the need of, I don't know. Web to Legacy licensing. So, so, so yeah. Really like, that's what I'm really looking forward to an end here. Our our basically stake in this
game. Is our set of real apis. You can certainly use automation as well to provide very nice user experiences but especially with relaying and account abstraction. You can build amazing new user experiences where I hope it will simply be like, okay, we forget completely about connecting meet, I'm asking what? So, what so ever, like, all of this will be gone, it will just be a nice website and you go to clicking buttons again, you needed to see data and so on and you don't have to have this
extension be connected. And so on at all times, like it should be Very smooth sort of instant feedback as you use a website to interact with crypto. That's really what I'm looking forward to you too. Having left three with strictly better user experience than web to this is. Those are goals. Fantastic, I have one last question and maybe it's the most important question that I considered leading with. What's your favorite flavor of
ice cream? You don't, you don't get to be called July. Otto without, you know, having a good answer to that. And I do look forward to the to the next Defcon and the the gelato booth there again. Oh yeah. The most the favorite Booth of our def con attendees where you get gelato. We literally saw people going there eight times in a single day guy, who's get you skipped lunch and everything was crazy. Costed was also I think it vegan or maybe maybe just vegetarian
but was very healthy. So basically this was also one of the main complaints about def con this year that the food was too healthy, but you were there, too. You were there to, you know, to to rescue the staff. Attend saviors. Yeah. Yeah, but having having a free ice cream truck is definitely a dose Vector, that's for sure. So was we've got a grease there.
So for fun, for me, if for me impressive, favorite flavors still is the command and this is actually how I what I ordered when I was a child when I spend all my pocket money on gelato and I went to destroy the place close by and I ordered eight Scoops and it looks It what I wanted a scoops and I did it on my career. I'd like a biweekly basis, most likely. And there were lemon chocolate chili and lemon chocolate cherry.
So so the, so I like lemon and chocolate and it specifically just a hinge of chili and some sweetness with the cherry. And then you get a, you have opinions opinions and isn't Louis. What about you? Yeah, I think, for me, it's pistachio. And by the way, I have to plug the amazing ice cream shop that is next to fall, not in Berlin. Do I? Yes, it's amazing. This is Hylian ice cream there.
So. Yeah. It was the perfect place to start gelato in 2019 and have some of the bear Market. Bitterness be washed away with some nice Sweet. Gelato from the shop, close by Fantastic. If people want to find out more about gelato or use, gelato, or become active in the gelato Community, where do we send them understand? So first of all, gelato dot network is the website that you find all the various resources and links, the most active
channel-facets Discord there. If you were free developer, you're starting out or you are an advanced person who wants to go deep into gelato. Just come there and chat with us and And of course, follow us on Twitter. We are also producing a lot of video content on YouTube, so make sure to try to follow us on YouTube, as well.
We'll probably do some cool Vlogs for each Denver, so if you're not there and can participate, but still when I experience it and make sure to check out our other Vlog there. And yeah, so this card is the best form and to it, of course, Fantastic, thank you both for coming on. This was super fun. Thanks, thank you. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week.
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