Juan Benet: Protocol Labs – IPFS, Filecoin and the Vision for a Decentralized Web (Part 2 of 2)

Hi, I'm Sebastian with you and you're listening to epicenter the podcast will re-interview crypto Founders, Builders and thought. Leaders. On this show, we dive deep to learn how things work at a technical level, and we fly high to understand Visionary, Concepts, and long-term trends. If you like epicenter, the best way to support us is to leave a review on apple pie. Cast. And if you're on a Mac or iOS device, the easiest way to do that is to go to epicenter rocks

/ apple. And if you're new to the podcast, be sure to subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever your listen. Today, our guest is wonbin a and this is part two of our two-part interview with one. So if you haven't heard part one, I would definitely

recommend you. Go back to last week's episode, that's episode 367 to get the full conversation part one focused on ipfs and part two is Saying on Fall coin and here, Brian, and Federica went deep, with Juan into the intricacies and complexities of that project. So, of course, the discuss the high level and long-term vision

of the project. The technical underpinnings of how fog horn works, the role and influence of minors on the protocol its proximity to the ethereum project and how its in spin inspired by the ethereum project and its structure how it was designed and the complexities of Designing systems that this scale. Falcone Foundation projects and use cases being built on file coin and so much more. I really enjoyed this conversation.

I think Juan is such a thoughtful finger in the space and getting an update on this project which we had first talked about five years ago, was definitely do. What's great is to learn about the ecosystem that is forming around this technology stack. So on talks about an ecosystem of investors that are interested in projects that are built on Fox. And, and I'm really looking forward to the day where the file coin ipfs.

Stack is a viable alternative to the Asher's and AWS has and Google's of the world for building production apps and given how things are evolving. I don't think that that future is as far off as we think it might be anyway. If you're building websites today, you're probably using one of the big cloud providers. And there's a good chance you're using Wordpress. I mean, it powers like 80% of

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Asians about Al Gore. And if you want to learn more about that you can go to Al Gore and.com slash epicenter. But I'll tell you more later on. For now, here's our conversation with one minute. Now let's talk about five coin by coin is the incentive layer, that kind of brings it all together. What happens, another would say, I am someone who wants to retrieve some content that I know, is somewhere out there. So basically, what would happen whom would I pay who's incentivized by?

What what are the crypto economics going on here? Yeah, I got it. Yeah. So basically you're saying, hey like let's walk through kind of like the the life cycle of data and kind of like follow it and so on. Yeah. So maybe they start with, I'll describe three. So, first, let's think about adding capacity and I work then adding storage. So, you know, a client hiring, hiring a minor to add some data. And then the third is a, another client kind of retrieving something that exists there.

So the first case of a minor that has soared to provide and a walks up to the network and Pledges certain amount of sectors and a pledge is a commitment to the network that you're going to store. A certain amount of you can add a certain amount of capacity and you're going to produce some proofs for that capacity. And you also have to kind of because this is really to consensus.

You have to have something at stake here, the answers, there's a certain conditions in which there might be certain kinds of attack to. You could play suit, so that includes kind of a deposit of Falcon. And so a minor add storage to the Let's add some actual capacity. Then gets a random seed from the network to store some data and kind of to produce a a, a to kind of seal it. What is right now?

An empty sector sources just, you know, capacity and this is a, you know, kind of a sector today is 32 gigabytes and then, you know, there'll be kind of variables I sectors in the future and what not. So, you know, a minor might walk in with say a terabyte or something like that.

Your divide that terabyte in to 32 GB segments, and you now, seal, all of these segments and the ceiling processing involves doing a proof of replication that you're actually have that capacity to provide to the network. And as a minor you kind of have now signed up with a network to

for this. This capacity in addition to my neck, kind of sets a and ask price which is how much their storage is going to go for when clients kind of are going to hire Less storage what, I'll go for right now if this Of a

global a spry. So a minor mostly use cases - kind of have one price and that's it in the future we anticipate we want to have a flexible and fluid ask model where - can have can give you many different kind of prices for different tiers of storage and all that kind of stuff. But for now sort of like a very simple one price for Peralta storage so that we kind of the minor has committed to network to sort this, and now other parties can can view it. So, now Along Comes a user client.

And since, okay, great like I want to store this data and so the data, you know, they can just add it with various different kinds of tools. So they can first that I profess and get a hash or they can add it with the following with like the Lotus client which is kind of like the one of the main pumping implementations or a bunch of other tools that that speak these protocols, like textile power gate or slate, which is a consumer-oriented application.

There's a bunch of other different kinds of things. And that was the surgeon has been added. You can now. Hire, you can kind of create a deal to hire minor to back this back to back up this data. And that deal is sort of a relationship between a client and a single client and a single Miner and a single piece of data. It's kind of like the unit of of

agreement. And as a client you probably want to do this with multiple monitors because you want to replicate your data with multiple different parties and, and so you, now send your data over. To you find these - in the network by there's a number of ways, you can either enumerate them from the blockchain, you can find them in a block Explorer.

There's a bunch of tools, I can show you what Miners and what ask prices they have and so you select which minor you want and you could be maybe price sensitive but you might also take into account other important details about the minor. So for example they're kind of like reliability. There's a different kind of cancer features about the minor that get tracked by the ball chain and can sort of give you a score.

Right now, there's no emergence for the, you know, everybody's using yet but you could build these kind of like tried writing style, number some minor. So you become kind of like a very simple way of selecting minors but he declined right now just as a minor and sensor data over to the source provider. Once the source provider receives it they deal is completed and the minor which is the deal into the network.

There's a bunch of operations that happen underneath the hood in order to like actually make that. Make that work. There's kind of some preparation of the data that has to happen in order to make it easy to prove and so on and definitely a different sizes of the data really matter, right? So, if you're sending a little bit of theta, say a few MB, few kilobytes or megabytes. That's going to be the kind of distribution is very different than if you're sending gigabytes or terabytes.

And so, for something the smaller scales that just, you know, this is a very simple protocol where right away. You can just send somebody over and make the deal and whatnot as a user. You this is completely hidden from you. You, you know, the client in the minor are doing. This is how far he's doing this on under the hood. But the users themselves on have to be exposed to all of this going on under the. It's kind of like a like a Bitcoin transaction or any

theorem transaction. There's a lot going on happening under the hood for a transaction to like move to certain plays dead validated execute and whatnot. But all of this kind of hidden from from the actual users. But by default this is not encrypted, right? The data. That it's up to the clients to decide on the encryption structure. So by default data sort of gets sued, encrypted is unencrypted in a in a we don't call it encryption because that implies a that it is hidden from the world.

There's a lot of data that's public and so you need to allow people to to store data that is in the clear. So that public data can be, can be used, but most, you know, our gate and other and other tools and so on. Just encourage all of that ahead of time. So you know, if you are storing an application data and so on the encrypted first and then you you send it to the to the world, think of it as like the client software. Gives the minor what they want the world to see.

And so if you want the world to see a public data set, then you should give in the clear. If you want them to have a trip to thing, you can do that. We've also thought about moving to a world where the bit itself. Anyways is stored in model and

analogous to encrypt. She's not exactly encryption but it's analogous to it and the data itself is dispersed and so on and it's durable and whatnot but is considered kind of doing public data sets by by using either convergent encryption or or encryption where like the public key is like, you know, side the encryption key is just zeros or something like that but

it doesn't necessarily benefit. I think it becomes very useful to be very clear about where when there's encryption when there isn't and so far like that's that's been the the structure that we've we followed. Because there is this important utility of being able to have these public publicly available data sets.

But yeah, the tooling itself, you know defaults to your adding data, you know, user-oriented tooling just default to encrypting all of it but beyond that now that you've given the data to the minor and like they publish a deal into the network and the miners now schedules that deal in that data to be sealed into a sector and and let's get this is scheduling piece here because When you hire a minor, you're hiring for them for some amount of data and they have to pack that into a sector

a sector. It has a fixed size, right? And so they kind of - collect a bunch of pieces from a lot of parties and then they take all of that assemble it into a sector and seal it all together. So, you know, think of it, kind of like the mental model is think of a large storage container. So think of like a normal one of those shipping containers that you see on like ships and so on and so your, your stuff could be the whole container or it could

be Smaller than that. And or if you have bigger stuff than it gets like partitioned off and do multiple multiple storage containers. And yeah, definitely if you if you, for example, want to send larger amounts of data, if you want to send terabytes or petabytes then sending it over the Internet is probably a bad idea because it'll take you a

very very long time. And instead of that point you want to, if you are at that scale, what people end up doing is, you know, contact the minor and you figure out which miners you want to go for and you contact them and you initiate a deal. But But you now have to ship them, the data physically. And that means like you send out, send them a drive and they get the drive, they verify that they actually got the data and they plug it in.

And this is a very important piece because you know vast amounts of data in the world are moved around this way and I moved around over the Internet, it's moved entirely off the internet through physical media medium. So packaging is one of the main main Avenues but many large Clouds also provide the support where they'll send, you know, I think like Amazon does is where they can.

You can schedule a truck to come to your business and like get a bunch of drives and send them to Glacier, right? It's like you have to fill that use case. Once you, hit exabytes of storage in, like the large amounts of data, you have to allow people to have this offline first pointed way of moving around data, which is really cool because it means that you can Not only move large amounts of data, but it means you can.

You can start moving things in ways that are like less expected by parties trying to predictive relatively figure out all the parties that have whenever you don't rely on Crossing certain borders on the Internet, it's kind of like a really useful useful feature because it also means you can be for example,

petition tolerant, right? So this is isn't the case today because Falcon has one blockchain and you can think of it as kind of like one single singular region, but in the future, As scalable chains arrived, and this kind of we're popping is headed being able to split into different and census regions that map to different regions of geographically, so

that you can be partitioned. All right, so that you can continue to make deals and serve stuff and so on while while your petition from the rest of the world because petitioners in the internet a pretty frequent today already, you know if your data stored in a minor and you can still talk to them, doesn't matter that you can't talk to the rest of the network, you can still get your data from the minor that's entirely off chain.

Planted transaction. yeah, so let's say I have a bunch of data and I you know Frederick is the minor and I've now shipped her you know some big pile of data and that now basically we you know in some level the the finger describing right there is actually this kind of you know, direct transaction like direct connection right between me who wants to store the data and you know her, who's the minor So file coin, what does it add in

this scenario? Is it, is it basically that she has to put up some collateral and then the Falcon Network and forces that she actually does store it in the long run. And then also, that there's this kind of like guarantee that, you know, other people can retrieve the data. And again, she has to kind of like guarantee that level of service. Exactly.

Yeah, so all when you described and those are really critical components because you know, today people trust the big clouds because of that reputation and because you can trust them to continue storing your data rate, your many smaller think of it. Kind of like the hotel and Airbnb world where before I became on you totally could go and stay in random people's houses. Well, the idea that you could like how do you find them?

How do you trust Ask them. What is the guarantee that there you're actually going to be able to you actually going to have a place when you get there and people are going to receive you and you don't have a good pictures of places or you know, how do you guarantee good behavior. They're like the aren't going to Steel yourself in the middle of the night or something. All of that before we can be was really hard to establish. It definitely happened, right?

Like there were a lot of people traveling around this way, but it was a way smaller amount of parties in there was a lot more

risk. So, when everybody came in and create a Marketplace that standardize the entire flow and standardize, what it meant to be on the supply side and sanitized what I meant to be on the, on the demand side and build, a bunch of tooling to add sort some amount of reputation systems to it. And so, on a verifiability around the pictures and whatnot, it just sort of cleaned up the entire market and it can greatly expanded its potential. Suddenly tons of places could be online, right?

So if you have a bunch of storage and you want to kind of Sell it online. How do you go about doing that similar to if you have a spare room, how do you go about selling a night in that room without a Marketplace? And so that's, you know, one of the really critical components is you need in marketplaces, standardizing create a protocol for how all of these interactions are supposed to happen and you solve a bunch of hard problems in the kind of

really add a lot of value. Like the guaranteeing that the search is going to be there in the long term. Like that's a really critical component in any kind of storage relationship having a Network that's large enough to accommodate a large use, right? So, if it was, if you were kind of browsing around individual websites and you hear about somebody having like 10 terabytes or like one petabyte, like, well should I store my data with this, this group, or

should I just got it on Amazon? If you have a very simple choice. But if you insert set ourselves dealing with one large Network and you can certainly expect the same kind of quality of service across it or you know, some amount of variability between a between it, but you have a saint. That's protocol for it. Then you're totally able to trust a lot of service providers that can come into that to that marketplace, right?

So it's a, it's really about kind of providing a way for the vast amount of Supply out there to come together and aggregate into one Marketplace. That then clients can do business with. I've been building WordPress websites for over 10 years and the most frustrating thing has always been devops. I'm talking about deployment maintenance backups and database management. I've lost so many hours of sleep doing WordPress infrastructure

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Go to epicenter, dot rocks, /, C panel that's CPA any L. We'd like to thank cpanel for their support of the podcast. So the a B&B system kind of evolved gradually right? So, basically they have a customer support hotline and if something goes wrong you call them and basically worst case they give you a money back and you go look for, you know, physical hotel where ever you're stranded. So in a way designing a decentralized network is

fundamentally different in that. It's kind of important to get parameters right from the get-go. And there's a lot of parameters. I mean pertaining to, you know, the Staking and the slashing and you know liveness guarantees and so on. How did you go about designing those economics? Great question. So one part is just figuring out what mechanisms do you need? And a lot of that is thinking about the the interactions in the flows between parties and what are the value flows that

are happening? What guarantees you need to establish thing through many, many kinds of layers of a potential attacks that might Might be possible. What are the assumptions all over the place? You want to minimize any kind of trust and make the transactions themselves verifiable? And so that map to things like producing per cell replication so that you can, you can guarantee that the storage is actually there.

And in map to things like an ongoing proposed FaceTime that you where you can verify that this stuff is Not only was there initially but continues to be there over time and in map to mechanisms like what of the fee structures and the punishments that need to be the fees. And punishments for bad behavior in the network, right? So if a minor losses data or or things like that, and one part of this was designing, first, you think about all these value flows?

You think about the mechanisms, then you start thinking about what are the possible Feast, not only structures, but value flow. Some things have to be proportional in certain ways. Some things have to be at least a certain amount. Some things have to be markets and kind of set by various different parties. Together certain things have to be estimators on network. Activity. So there's a there's really a very large amount of space here

and a ton of parameters. The way we went about, this is a large combination of of analysis on individual mechanisms themselves and then couplings of mechanisms and, you know, and so on further plus then a whole perfect Comics effort to build using both simulation and, and kind of like larger scale analysis Frameworks for figuring out the Structures that would yield good results. Meaning one part of this is thinking deeply through the problems and coming up with

actual analytical. Expressions. That tell you what, the fee structure space has to be. So you figure out all the constraints between these systems systems of components and mechanisms, and you kind of narrow down the space of possibility, so that gives you some kind of operating range, but that doesn't guarantee that is going to work. It just kind of gives you some sense of what the constraints have to be from there.

Some amount is also putting it into a Engineering and and development and actually running it live. So we did, we did a number of large-scale network tests with many miners to figure out what kind of operating parameters were workable in a number of these things. You know, theory is one thing, practice is something very different and and you know, you learn a lot by actually putting

things directly in use. But you know, one big area of this was a large simulation and ever that we that we undertook to figure out what a bunch of Different mechanism parameters have to be in order to yield yield, good results. And this is kind of a very large effort with a lot of people both within and outside of PL. So this is this includes various different teams when PL but also a number of external collaborators in academic environments and really awesome

group called block science. We've been super super helpful in building. A lot of the doing some of the simulation and Analysis and you know, number of research groups that we collaborated with for many years on Different parts of the protocol and so you end up with like a large mechanism design space, and a bunch of parameters that you then have to make sure play nice. And this is probably one of the biggest hurdles for not, just for Falcon, but for the entire

web, three space. It is extremely difficult to build these kinds of larger scale systems.

That do something more complex, because the state space blows up exponentially and kind of like what the what the parameters please, you have to search through really becomes very, very large and a lot of it is you can easily Up with mechanisms that are too fragile where maybe the operating range that you have is actually quite small, but some other mechanism couples with in a weird way in this kind of like causes this this space to oscillate in a weird way and maybe kind of like

actually breaks things here. So it's part of the part of the output is like once you do a bunch of this analysis simulation, you end up realizing that some mechanisms actually have to change. So, not only do you, not only have a parameter settings. Sometimes you end up having to change mechanisms to arrive at a much better. More stable Construction. Because simulation just showed

you both both either. Sometimes just directly in analysis or simulation shows you that this is actually like a bad system design because it is too likely to, you know, most of the cases that you check out our failures or it is maybe it is not. It may be its kind of fragile.

And if you're familiar with kind of like the fragility of our Center for agility way of analyzing systems, where some systems are fragile, once you kind of push them in certain ways, they Will tend to and push them out of their considered normal comfort zone. And they'll, they'll they'll tend to break all their systems. Kind of respond, more naturally, to kind of those stresses and kind of recover from those dresses better. So that kind of lends it for

agility versus antifragility. You can you can apply to this. And in your analysis simulation, you'll be able to kind of distinguish what which mechanism sent to be fragile. And it kind of remove them because fragile mechanisms will lead to attack vectors and will lie to you. Might work for now, but one somebody changes something, then you might get into that state or actually, you think it'll work but there's an embedded hidden, assumption somewhere that you

never expected them. Something like that actually doesn't work. So it's a highly complex Endeavor to build an economy like this. I mean, I think something like the like a theorem is similar in that when you think about all of the different mechanisms that are at play and the gas structure.

And so on, in an appearance case, a lot of this kind of All the overtime and parameters were set and improved upon over many months and that kind of scaled with usage and even kind of like a gas model is kind of going into it into a major re working with you know the IP if it is 1559 and that you know, if you're in this case it seems able to shipping out with a much smaller amount of usage and then over time scale we weren't we unfortunately did not have that luxury like right away because

we're kind of now in 2020 is supposed to in 2015. There's a lot more attention in the space as a whole and in applications like popcorn. And so therefore, just from day one, we're going to get a much larger scale of usage.

So we had to get a lot more right from the get-go which was definitely harder larger bar, but it made it, you know, we now ended up with a much more robust thing and one of the cool things is like we're actually shipped chips yappy 1559 like, that's the gas model that we use and it actually works really well.

It just leads to certain kind of Fast base fee, spikes, that food for thought, for anybody working on this area of gas modeling and so on really, really good structure, but leads to kind of like some spikes that make some people really unhappy and it's easy to kind of run up the base B. So we are getting a lot of data, think that will be helpful for the ethereum community as well. Anyway, there's no K. Large complex. Space. One of us are a poisson on this is that this is an area where a

lot of tools need to be made. So we had to build a bunch of internal to NG to, you know, and all kinds of tools to analyze things in parts or as a whole system and kind of like simulation Frameworks to be able to model this kind of economic system. And this is an area where we definitely wouldn't want to go back to this. And and think about what kind of tooling will be really broadly usable by a large number of groups to really kind of, you know, kind of analyze an in-depth.

How much This economic mechanisms should work. But also, what's more important than analysis? I think, is helping generate them. So I think this is where this this whole web three world is at a juncture similar to where I think chip manufacturing was when you transition from kind of like human design, to computer designed chips where the constraints Mase.

Got so big and and the and the difficulty problem kind of scaled to the point where people needed to write software to do all of the chip layout and and solve a bunch of problems. That previously, you know, they weren't expected humans to solve but now computers have to solve just because of the magnitude. I think we're definitely well in that space where now most perfect Autumn he's that are going to see major usage.

Really should be should have mechanisms that are designed and checked in great part by by programs. And the tooling is just not there and does not exist for any of us. And that is a huge area of improvement that I think if we had really robust tooling, we could shave months, two years off of the development of every major project out there. And all of the scalability improvements that are going to come in into a lot of the projects that are out there now. So it's a kind of a really open.

You know, if any listener out there is is interested in these kinds of topics and has been looking for a project or something like that, I think. Building really, really good. Tooling for vertical designers. Here is greatly needed. That's something that we are kind of exploring as well as to if we were kind of doing this from scratch. What are the kinds of tools that we would have wanted to have?

And what are the kinds of tools that we want for the future versions of how clean and and other protocols and whatnot? And how my we build those. So either somebody else will go out there and build this or or we'll have to so ideally somebody else will do it and we won't have to do it because then we can just use your thing and I'll be amazing.

So please do that. Otherwise, We'll probably end up building something here at some point because there's a lot of utility to be had in. Making it way easier to build these systems, we're kind of hitting the limit of what teams of humans can do is just way too complex. And I think today, you can probably probably the attacks space on contracts and ethereum is so big.

That there are probably tons of exploits at the moment that are possible because of the combinations of contracts, but are not explored because we just don't have the tools to explore them. Getting the again, the comments are just pushing the so big, that humans can't be expected to

figure this out. And so now we really need an assistant to help us find those and close those vulnerabilities before somebody kind of builds this tooling for bad and then it kind of explains it. But that would still mean that basically you would have to specify the intended Behavior,

right? So basically you kind of like in for my verification, are you kind of have to specify what you expect, the business logic of the thing to be and building tooling for how we think about expected Behavior? I mean, basically, it's kind of like a recursive problem know, Yes, and no in that today, when people go on design protocols, they usually do it in their heads and on maybe paper and the

kind of writer no notebook. And you know, then later they'll go and transcribe that into a GitHub issue and will work in a some other markdown document and and you'll get a bunch of kind of paper protocol stuff and that at some point people will after many rounds of iteration and and review people will then turn. Turn that and start writing it into some implementation, sometimes it's prototypes that test of validity of something.

Before you do any kind of like hard engineering work for the real kind of production, use many times, it's just, you know, go straight to the production use unlike start building it into the main client, which, you know, that's going to be way slow, probably way slower. But because, you know, you're going to find protocol problems in and pay the big cost of putting it into the main thing. And then, after all of that, hopefully you've gone through enough rounds of analysis.

That in the paper stages. And if you're dealing with economics and a friend, some kind of larger scale framework analysis and simulation to really know the mechanisms are, right, and they are going to like put into production and use it and then hope for the best and like, you know, we're trying to find problems and fix them. And that's kind of like the state of the industry. And I think that most of these Protocols are big enough, that you have dozens to hundreds of

people working on them. And maintaining the protocol space in one head is just not a thing. You can do. Anymore. So what I'm going to talk to you about is you need people to start working in software from the get-go.

You need people to when they're designing the protocol at the very beginning, you can greatly reduce the iteration cycle by doing very kind of straightforward modeling work, that will kind of show that some mechanism is just not tractable or, and it won't fit with some other components or wood will not kind of Function. So it is something close to formal verification or kind of like the CLA plus style from a vacation or something like that but I think it's got to be just

dramatically easier. I think most of them over vacation languages and systems are way too complex for this. Use case this has to be as simple as writing an expression in kind of observable or something like that. Where you have a kind of full system design somewhere and you're designing parts of the protocol and it's a very kind of individual researcher or Oriented an individual developer oriented tool that enables you to kind of add components to the protocol. But but it's not just one

protocol. It's rather like you can think of a bunch of different versions, possible versions of the protocol, with different kind of mechanisms and you can test against all of these different combinations. And you can think through which ones end up yielding better results and you can kind of couple that with simulation and kind of model checking across the whole thing. Then you can greatly increase the speed of of building something as complex as ethereum. 51 and so on.

And I think right now you know kind of back in the day, the software industry faced a similar can transition between writing software and tests versus the entire continuous integration system that we have now. So today you write code and you can not only write tests and urine tests for your app, your part of the application and whatnot and kind of larger integration tests.

But it is in Industry Norm that all of that is going to get tested through a very Wide Battery of tests across many different kind of infrastructures before he gets deployed. And, and once it passes all of these performance requirements, then it will actually kind of

ship, right? So if you've seen kind of the dashboard performance dashboards for Chrome or Firefox, that will give you a sense of every single line of code gets tested across a, a really gargantuan amount of tests that test all kinds of things. And if you introduced accidentally a performance hit somewhere, everyone will know. Like, you'll see like all kinds of charts.

You know this is this is going bad and software has moved to this kind of design space and Engineering space because that was a way to make the development of these kinds of large infrastructure projects so much faster, right? So something like Chrome or Firefox has hundreds of people developing on the, you can't do that in without that kind of tooling and that kind of testing infrastructure in place.

So that's what I think is necessary for these particles going forward, we need that kind of the analogous version of that kind of testing infrastructure, which is not Just the software yet. This point is really the mechanism design has to be included in it because there's just way too much for individual researchers to be able to handle

the larger complexity. And if you think that, you know, many different developers out there and saying they're in developers because I think this is kind of like the kind of like largest smart kind of platform out there with whitest. Use this probably applies to most blockchains many of them.

They overshot their kind of approach writing a contract, simply They just kind of you know if they're if they're right there solidity contract and then they think about how what explains there might be in that one.

And there's a bunch of tooling that helps, you think about how to improve it and so on and maybe check some important cases, you know, few groups actually think through what are all the other mechanisms available to any theorem contract, what other theorem contracts are out there and how is my contract going to get exploited by one of those out

there, right? So am I accidentally creating a thing where somebody with flash alone capabilities is going to destroy the entire ER mechanism, I just built or not. Right. And hey today is Flash loans tomorrow. It's like some other completely different thing and so you need it. You need a whole software, cic d-type version thing, but for the entire mechanism design space, Our friends over at Al Gore and are starting an office hours Series.

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Well, this is book called. I mean book it's kind of like a compilation of satoshi's writing. I think it's called The Book of Satoshi. So some guy went to, you know all of the old Bitcoin talk and like all of the kind of things. So she ate And then kind of like organize it compile it and it's really cool to read. And one of the things that really struck me when I was reading, the thing was that, you know, Satoshi is far as we know,

right? He didn't anticipate like a six and he didn't participate mining pools. And, you know, Bitcoin is such a simple economic design. It, you can hardly make a simple economic design for like a cryptocurrency and then even if such a simple design, it seems like there is easy, no major unintended Good consequences that have kind of worked out fine, but, you know, they seem to not have been predictable or, you know, you know, in retrospect if we can see like out, of course, this was going

to happen. But like so then, if you think of like more complex systems like, you know, pretty much most cryptocurrency since then, and you know, especially things like file calling. But, you know, even you theorem right, where you have a different pricing for opcodes every previous take thing. I, yeah, I think you're totally right, right. This is Chair hard problem in such an important problem to get, right?

And you'll probably also you're going to have to have some, you know, some level of ability to respond actually, that's the question. I want to bring up here before is or how does governance work in the file coin Network? Yeah Rick. Okay so maybe I'll address the kind of like a because of the flow of conversation all dress the smaller case of how do you respond to problems and then kind of remove the broader governance question.

So how do your son's problems is a really key thing for blockchains and blockchains that don't address this directly and try to have a lot of value will not end well in our case, the Falcon community and sort of formed a set of first of all, there's the, the parties running the network are There's a lot of minors that are maintaining the blockchain and they have a really good distribution of power.

So many other block chains are super centralized and in our case, we have a much better kind of distribution over all with the power then that many other networks out. There there's a lot more kind of miners in the contribute to say have the power or some type of personal power than in a lot of, a lot of other systems. There's one important thing too because it prevents many kinds of attacks being exploited very

quickly. You know, there's a number of network operators that at our have a number of Communication channel set up and ready for for problems. And the number of developers both across various different organizations and companies that are pretty familiar with.

There's for implementations, there's one main one, the most people run today, but there's a few others that are joining very soon and a lot of those developers are going to In The Weeds of a lot of this plus there's a few other miners that have development shops associated with them so there's

a number of developers. Those miners have Well, it's kind of like this group of operate Network operators in this group of developers and there's organizations that have set up on Call rotations for The Operators and the developers to be able to address problems. Should they emerge?

So if there's kind of some problem and it requires addressing very quickly, then we can figure out what the problem is. As a community describe what the patch needs to be, discussed it on GitHub, whether it is fully publicly And if it's not kind of an exploit that's gonna if it's animal, can natural problem or a well-known thing or privately. If it's a thing where it's in this kind of an exploit, that's potentially, we're going to exploit where the or something

like that. And then kind of arrived at what a potential path might look like. And number of people look at it and think is a great upon and then shipped out in a release and then that's a release of the code. And the that point kind of network operators in number of miners Get that release, download the code upgrade their own set of, you know, if they agree with that, they download the code upgrade and kind of go

from there. And there are kind of upgrades that are just software only and then there are chain upgrade, such a upgrades require kind of a state transition and that sequences are slower. Unfortunately and harder we had it as a requirement for for Space Race to go through a number of really hard State transitions in very short, term Cycles to kind of help boots. Strap the community activity

around this, this kind of work. So that the community kind of got used to making important changes, state upgrades quickly because of some major problem emerges. You need the community, be able to respond to that kind of stuff, fast and the normal setting of cloud infrastructure, where there's one company running things, or maybe two or something like that coordination. There's can be could be faster, you know, in a world with many other stakeholders, it could be slower.

In our case. We think that we are Two things as fast, if not faster than, then other other kind of more traditional centralized systems because we've taken on the work of thinking about this as a goal for the network and many Miners and developers are aligned against that problem, we have kind of Emergency Response protocol so we've set up put in place for for this you know, thankfully we haven't had to

deal with anything in two major. I mean not going one and all that kind of stuff, many many other networks. Even by our age, we had already Ready kind of encountered a bunch of problems. We've had a number of important improvements and changes that need to happen quickly but nothing kind of super major we will eventually right? So every every block chain goes through, very large kind of stabilizing hard problems. You know, theorem had many.

So many blockchains that kind of these types of problems is just the nature of software and the nature of these systems. So, the best thing is like a lot of preventative measures.

Plus a lot of kind of fast response measures to be able to, kind of solve the The problem though is kind of like the how does the path when I work as a community to respond to these kinds of issues and and you know it's been really awesome to see the response in general from many different groups like individual and thinking of like individual Miners and individual developers in different communities that have helped signed bugs, or helped come up with patches or submitted things

and it releases and so. On broader question of, how does governance work? That's a, we hear we borrow the ton from a theorem because we reviewed a lot, Lot of different systems in a lot of chains and and their approaches. I mean we're super close to in general, a lot of our communities shared with your community, we sort of feel very tightly knit and collaborate a lot.

But we sort of saw a really pragmatic feel and and really kind of successful programmatic structure to the theorem governing structure where you kind of RFC inspired. So you have like the normal VIPs and so on and you have kind of like this you know strong idea of rough consensus and running code And you have a good principal set in with the community that you are going to improve things. And you are going to improve implementations pretty

frequently in quickly. And you are going to come up with a bunch of standards and so on. And so we kind of borrowed a lot from that. And so we saw this as a really good place to mirror a lot of like the really good good lessons and so we borrowed the a grant proposal structure which again, comes from Bitcoin and they turn as well and and standard RFC style inspired

thing. So there are five coin Improvement. Puzzles and their say, anybody can submit a claim proposal, and then there's settlement limitations and implementers that review, those proposals and kind of are in charge of deciding whether to implement them into their implementations. But that isn't doesn't necessarily mean, I'm decision of like, they decided that an important change needs to land this more.

That's more of a leaving it up to the community thing because you have the standard structure that happens. No, blockchains where developers might say x but it might as own agree, then. It doesn't matter if people are going to are going to run something else. And so you have that natural governance, structure, that emerges what you have like these two groups of parties groups of developers and groups of miners that have to sort of, its kind

of like a bicameral system. Where like, both parties have to both groups have to agree with a change before it lands. So if hips tend to be discussed a lot by Miners and developers, and so on often this starts in slack, there's like a falcon Community slack and people end up discussing various different Avenues of Of a problem, and there's all kinds of discussion threads that happen there. And from there, it translates

into a GitHub dip. And once it's in a hip people will then go and discuss it there. And then from there, we'll get discussed in. We have kind of a weekly developer conversation that kind of goes through those steps and talks about, which ones are slated for implementation or not and what not. And then, from there, it gets scheduled into releases and then from there, miners, kind of, you know, voice by that. If anybody even a large group of - and so on, don't want to

change. Will have already been voicing it likely isn't gonna get implemented because for medicine not gonna start implementing something. If I can get accepted, as you have like this, very kind of like rough consensus and running code. Feel to the whole thing. It is not very formalized intentionally and we thought that that was like a very good decision from aetherium relative to a lot of other groups because it made it very easy for emergent things happen.

Quickly that a kind of like non-controversial oil and and it gave the community a lot of voice for things that are important and should be taken slower. And so that's kind of an important kind of mapping that we thought was useful and valuable. Now in the long term, we do you think that on chain governance systems are really the only one really interesting and fought one may end up with some launching governance structures

in the future. The community in general is pretty interested in these kinds of things, but we haven't, we didn't want to kind of help. That all of that risk as well into an already kind of like highly complex system. And so, we'll once some of these hunting governance systems and more fleshed out and tested and work out then the community will probably, you know, if it's valuable to it up one, it will.

There's also a foundation, this is the foundation, which is taking on a lot of programs in the community and will help Steward the long term. There's a lot of things that you need a kind of like entity in the kind of normal human world to to do and to help Steward in a bunching environment and that's when the foundation is going to do long-term. And so Brooke, allows is transitioning a bunch of programs over to the foundation to run there.

And it definition is planning a bunch of other things and that are really interesting and really cool and really exciting and they as an entity have been given some talks lately and we But we have a much larger voice in the coming weeks, by the way, highly recommend you. You meet those folks, really brilliant. People involved with the foundation and number number of avenues.

Both, they have a really Stellar amazing Advisory board that has a ton of amazing people in crypto and in Internet civil liberties space. Like a number of people from the FF and also a highly recommend amount of Algeria is like one of the main people that and it kind of took on building the The patent Foundation highly recommend checking with her. And then there's a number of operators that are kind of like

running to the foundation. They'll kind of help build out a number of important programs and help steer some of that kind of development groups and committees and whatnot. But you know, kind of a lot of the principles go back to you kind of rough consensus and running code and kind of like the will of what he liked the will of the community.

So you can probably expect a lot of the standard tooling that emerges with systems like this like pulling tools and and one not like being able to pull - by mining power, or by certainly took, the Holdings are useful developers. And like one of the things we want to do is be able to pull application developer. So if you have a bunch of application developers and hearing what they have to say is

really, really key. So we've kind of sketched out some polling tools that have like these different constituencies and so you can kind of get a sense of what people think about certain kinds of community decisions and whatnot. But, you know, it's kind of early days, a lot of this still happening in slack and GitHub

and kind of like that. more channels over time as the network gets bigger and a lot more happens with it will kind of bring in a lot of the tooling and systems that that other other groups have So he were talking about the application developers and I think this is one of the things that I would really still like to talk about. So there's actually a number of projects building on top of a coin. Can you talk about those for a bit?

Yeah, totally. And so there's a, a lot of different groups and they're coming from. Some groups are kind of came to popcorn from ipfs and number of them are kind of newly newly jumping into buckle and I'll maybe mention. So they may be say there's a kind of like set of larger developers that have kind of existing applications that are now starting to use file coin and then there's a whole wave of new developers that are building on auckland's like they're totally new.

I think that's also really exciting time. They don't, I'll talk a little bit about both. So, in one another Spectrum there's kind of think of this one use case, which I think is super compelling. And really important is one of our, my favorite application applications of PowerPoint. This is a function called Starling and Starling is a system and framework for preserving really important and valuable cultural heritage data.

So that means there are some extremely important data sets out there for that have extremely important. Cultural value, two groups of people where you really want to make sure that data stays around and you want to make that verifiable anyone, you want to be able to verify. That that data is being kept around. You want to verify, how many, there are a lot of copies around the world. That that is not going to get

lost. And you also want to verify that data has not been tampered with, or time. It's extremely critical of about data. I mean happen over time and some of the kind of did some of this kind of data is kind of important archives of documents and media, and testimonials of important conflicts in history.

And so, there's a the starting group has been working with a number of other groups, including the Shoah foundation, and a number of other, you know, Stanford University and a number of other groups to build out a an application that uses falc0n. To back up this incredibly culturally important cultural testimonial data that's super important valuable and one of the reasons that they really thought going and found it

really interesting. And really important for that use case, was that verifiability being able to verify that the data is being kept around and who's keeping it around and being able to verify that it hasn't been tampered with. It's such a critical component in all this that that that that became kind of like an important kind of you sir.

He's casing. So that's been also extremely humbling for for me and for a number of number of us working on fog, going to see such an important use case right away for kind of having a significant impact on the world. So we'll see kind of where that has four. That's a that's a Super Value application. And use case other users are there's a number of app developers that are moving around.

Their front ends that are right now hosted on already kind of address and IP fast, but backed up by either themselves or Or or or other or their structures and are now starting to move it over to Pat. Quinn there's one range of applications around video. That's super exciting where this is kind of coupling with. So it's a few experiments here that I think are really really cool.

But I'll mention one in particular which is a combination of Falcon and live pier where you can now and I like drag and drop any video to this web page and it will get moved over to the life. Peer Network get trance coated. Into all the right important formats for the web and then all of that will get put into file colon and then stored and

distributed through five coin. So you have kind of like an end-to-end video distribution thing working with faculty and life here today and I guess like a super super cool. Use case there's people working on live video. So on one part is doing video distribution using a professional P of live video think of streaming. Trimming use case and then take the as the video is getting generated. Once once the kind of live stream is over storing, the whole thing and unpacking for

the long terms. So then you're able to kind of view the view, the log of the view that video stream later on, it's going to some of the video-oriented use case that I think are pretty cool. Then there's a bunch of defy oriented things going on, where, you know, kind of a lot of a lot of the applications that people are building right now and tools are For the whole mining community. So there's not only do you have applications that are using

Falcon for something else. But popcorn itself requires some tools and applications built for yourself functioning, kind of like with if you're on, there's a number of applications there. So some of these include ways and structures for creating better organizational, structures and financial structures for Mining. And so, one example is very standard defying loan oriented stuff where you have a bridge from 2008. Miriam.

And then, you can do a bunch of, like loan oriented stuff and then back, not to pop one soap - can borrow Lachlan in order to use it for collaterals but then also structures where you can have contracts for financing the development of mining

operations, right? So, it turns out of mining operations in the larger scales are pretty involved in Nevers, you know, if you want to maintain a bunch of really high quality storage in a facility and whatnot, then you're able to kind of start creating some of Organizational structures and race funding either by selling some of your cash flows or things like that and this is happening in defy in a theorem,

right? So there's examples of this and this is groups are exploring different Avenues of for doing this and kind of in this in this part another area that I don't think this out yet. But is a pretty interesting thing is starting to think about cloud storage itself and and being able to sell capacity in the future as think of being able to. So any kind of important commodity in the The world. How's it going to put a National

Industry around it? So think of like being able to have oil and then have a bunch of different kinds of financial instruments associated with oil around it. So because we're commoditizing because parking is commoditizing this digital storage on the cloud. People are building kind of structures where you could potentially start doing the same kind of financial instruments

for cloud storage on blockchain. So that I think we'll take some time to get going and kick off because it requires a bunch of exploration around what structures are needed and whatnot, but imagine having to kind of break ability that you get out of other Commodities, but you get that in kind of the

digital storage space. So that would be this whole kind of like, interesting world because, if that's what's happening with file coin, then that'll push that kind of activity about storage media to potentially happen as well.

And so that's a whole pack was starting to affect the The storage media Market as you were describing earlier in some kind of important ways, building a bunch of different kinds of systems around Mach 1. There's a set of use cases there and then there's a whole category of new applications that there's a number of hackathons already where people are building a bunch of really cool things from games to Social Network. They're probably like 15 or 20

different, social networks that I saw this hackathon built using 5 coin like different, you know? Things like Twitter things like more Facebook news feed & Friends, style things, and messaging things. And so on that again, kind of experimented with. I think those things will take more time to really develop and flesh out and something that

that a lot of people can use. But already I know a lot of people are experimenting with and building these things kind of from scratch on talking and that's, that's super cool. And then there's a pi even in that class that where there are a number Of people doing this kind of live streaming work and video-oriented work. This is another really cool one which is this amazing use case around machine learning

computation around data. So people store data in the clear and fine and then they get they have this other tooling that they can then shit competent. So if this Falcon minor is like equipped with this additional protocol, then you can shit computation to that minor and they'll run it over the data that they have.

And Pretty, give you the results and all of that is hooked up in the standard python tooling so you can have like you're normal normal data science toolkit and then you just import a few

things. In your normal flow, you like your notebook structure and now you can both store data to file colon but also kind of like ship computation to the nodes that are storing it. And so that's kind of like a specific minors that are doing this because not all miners are going to be able to you know automatically do this is kind of an additional protocol. They have to run but that's kind of like a like a really cool example of what's going to

happen once. You start adding a lot of important data that you can compute on and it has a kind of gravity element to it which where it's way easier to ship the computation to the data, then the other way around like you want to move the competition at data, do it there and then kind of take the results elsewhere. So we think that this kind of compute Computing over data stored on Falcone, is going to be a big thing in the long term.

And so we're starting to see the beginning versions of this and beginning use cases of people experimenting and stuff. I think those protocols brought take a while to 2%. Thing, super scalable but already like you can store large amounts of data and compute with it really easily really cheaply. It does this have something cool applications out there. There's also just the idea of using this origin itself, right?

So separate from application building, various different groups are looking at using open data, the raw data storage and so on. And that's pretty. If I can't talk about any of the groups that I know about right now that are considering in the larger scale spot. And I think one of the important things here Is any kind of major groups are going to be experimenting and it was super knew I could just launched the cycles for any kind of large petabyte. Scale.

Usage are in the many think of like Enterprise scale time scales where they're going to be experimenting with with stuff for quite a while and then they're going to come make a any kind of public service or whatever. And so we those are going to be exciting and whatnot but this is probably more a story for for the future. But there's already some interesting Pilots that are forming and Some pretty cool public data uses that that it's kind of like more where my heart is.

Where a lot of the reason why I started. I think that's in the first place where around making it way cheaper and easier to back up. Vast amounts of important scientific data that's open access that anybody can use and can compete with, you know, like versioning data sets and all that kind of stuff and all of that, isn't it? New finally then finally, I have a can point to and that work for has vast amount of capacity to back up.

You know, the world's most important scientific data And kind of provided super cheaply to for people to use and download and compete with. And that's really there now. So now I think like the next important Milestone on that journey is is now starting to work with a number of groups to start adding a ton of those important data sets or into dark one. Well, I'll mention one more,

which I think is pretty cool. It's starting to see people doing pay per view videos and so you can do like video distribution or the video and do video distribution. Entirely through Falco and you can do like a man channel pay-per-view stuff and so that's also pretty cool of any it's not super safe in that if you get the decryption key you can probably share it out and and whatnot. But a lot of the times is this is more about friction then then

getting it super secure. So that's already kind of a kind of cool. Cool. Yeah, I mean it's great to see just how much it is going on and how this ecosystem is blossoming. So there's 11 of the topic we wanted to touch on because, you know, before the podcast we had, we had briefly talked about it with you and you mentioned already this kind of two angles do. This is the blockchain

scalability topic, right? And, you know, the one hand, it would be interesting to hear kind of, like, your thoughts on, how Falcone's going to scale as a blockchain. But then also, you know, what are your thoughts on kind of blockchain scalability topic? General. And specifically, you know what are your thoughts on like Eve to and you know I think as we are as we are recording this actually I think like today or something. I thought the threshold the positive threshold for each to

whose has been crossed. So you know this is like finally now imminent that you know the first steps towards the you know the fully through Yeah, so we go back to this. I just realized that I wanted to add one important for the community on an application. It's going to add that now. And then and then go back to this one really important part of the ecosystem. That's that's growing right now.

Very strongly is this kind of whole life cycle of development of the hackathons and then people taking those facts and then going into accelerators and then getting of those kind of people are kind of continue on to build build businesses, end up getting in. So, one of the really important signals in any kind of platform, like, this is how many developers really care about this or, or trying trying it out and experimenting with it. And then how many of those

actually build not just hacks, but then go on to build applications and then get investment. And then coupled with that is like how many investors in the in the in the space are kind of investing. So that's something. I think it's super cool about puffiness is super early right now and already there's been a bunch of hackathons. A bunch of Groups out of that going into accelerators. And then from accelerators, there's funds forming entirely to build and invest in the

popcorn ecosystem. And so, there are now not just investors in general. But there are funds emerging that are just investing in popping applications. And so it's a really exciting and positive time for people to get involved with people that are kind of like maybe in between things or have an application that already use that profession was maybe maybe a good trajectory for five coin.

It's a super vibrant. Ecosystem at the moment and it's kind of blossoming and growing a lot and there's a lot of interest from other developers and from the whole kind of development support cycle of Grants and Investments. And so on happening at the moment, so there's probably a bunch of projects that are getting built today and then the next few months that are going to be hitting, say three to nine

months from now. So because usually kind of a lot of these applications take out, take a while to going to get built out, go out there, and then get users and so on. So a Of the cool things that are happening at the moment will probably end up kind of being a whole wave of apps say six to nine months from now. And yeah, so highly encourage people to kind of get involved and one really great area for where we hadn't really seen this happening elsewhere.

But our slack turned out to be a Super Active environment where I think there's many, many thousands of different people are there in different groups and there's all kinds of activities around hackathons. And again, accelerators and what not all happening in the same space. And so it's a pretty active environment, kind of similar to the world of different Discord servers and any theorem community. So highly recommend people come in and hang out and check it out.

So the scalability question is super critical and important for the entire space. This is something that I see as the biggest hurdle to Broad scale adoption in in 13. So I think I kind of didn't think about it as the consensus bottleneck. So today there's just a ton of transactions. I want to go through a really tiny amount of bandwidth and most applications that consider using blockchains, just run into this bottleneck and and have to

start doing. All kinds of crazy off chain protocols or side chains or all kinds of really contortions of their application to make it work in the blockchain model. And so, of course, this is been a topic for discussion for a long time. A lot of people are on it, there's a lot of people trying to build much more scalable blockchain systems and, you know, put at the head of the

pack there. If you're a, have any theorem to the entire scalability, effort in theorem to is, you know, the furthest along from From any that I've that I've seen, and I think the one, the state tackling larger questions, more seriously. So I think it's a really kind of a really critical project to to watch and help out and going to help succeed. And so yeah, it's awesome that, you know, we kind of just cross the threshold and and you know

the second anus is happening. And now we're going to get to to go towards the all the sharding and and so on. I think that in the long term though you kind of like zoom out for a moment. Do you think about Computing infrastructure in general? You think about the kind of how much data gets generated again is in the order of zettabytes, how much of that is useful to store, probably right now in the tens to hundreds of exabytes that's again growing

exponentially of that. You know, some fraction of it is application data, that requires really fast. Come basically consistency times where people are used to chatting on a Nap typing. Something pressing enter getting to the other person and getting persisted into long-term storage

and never losing that. And they're used to kind of operations on social network websites that they click a bunch of buttons and all of that gets persisted, some we're building an application platform that can support. That kind of a scale of use is not only non-trivial, but will require solving a bunch of challenges for for web 3. So, In some cases, you can segment some of the operations to be client side only and if you can do that, that's that's

great. But there's a lot of operation that has to be whole network oriented. And when you hit any kind of real usage, you're going to run against this limit, this kind of consensus oriented limit and sure. You can try to do a bunch of stuff off chain but you end up having a now to problems, because a whole part of your application has to live on a blockchain and then there's another part of the application that's on the client side and kind of a user interface.

And then another part of the application that has to live somewhere in between some other off chain protocol, that's custom. And that I think is like not the way to go at all. I think that for web three to succeed in a long term, in general, we have to hit a system that can hit millions of transactions per second and can get pretty good consistency. And by that, I mean, you know, sub s style commits where somebody can like type of thing, press enter and close the application.

Like nice and kind of human scale like within seconds and know that all of that was stored safely somewhere and someone's going to be the other users going to be able to get that and see that. And the applications going to remember, their settings and whatnot. And doing that for billions of users in a crypto native sort of way is going to require that we have is like consistency

structure built in, right? So for applications where it's really just between us. Draw and a group of people, that's where things like there's these things called textile threads, which are part of the textile stock in the apis and Falcon ecosystems where you can sort of model a lot of your updates into your application and you into kind of like a

threat of operations. So think of us having a chat stream or us sharing some documents with each other having kind of like Google Docs, I'll experience and modeling all of those changes in that kind of thread and shipping, always something to each other and to I have some too far gone to sort and backup in the long term and also being able to kind of pull that out of there and kind of using.

So there's a bunch of applications for that will work but that kind of consistency is does not require super hard rigorous kind of network intermediation, right?

So we can do it like we will dr. Style thing if we if we have a protocol that kind of in see the updates and I can see my updates, you can see your updates, we can both sign them and all we need is a lot of operations to reconstruct the whole thing, that's easy and that's kind of you don't have to build a Some of chain thing for that you can use Excel threads

and be done. So that you can now model in think of a kind of like a normal web developer experience without kind of thinking of any complex where three crypto stuff and have some very simple Primitives and very simple data model, it just works for developers and they don't have to think about it a lot and like that's kind of working now. But as soon as you have something where you need some kind of important business, logic that users can't change.

And it requires some kind of like Network operation. That's where, where you have to know someone? They put this into a blockchain or into a network of other off blockchain, but important validator type roles. And I think that's that's what I think in the future is going to

be entirely blessings. It just has to be scalable systems and and again I really think that that kind of there is so much need for that kind of a transactional model that we're going to need to build systems that can scale to millions of transactions per second and clear very Quickly. And a few of the way that we're going to get, there is by building consensus systems that can Shard over time as they get used in certain regions of the world, but where they're really

mapped. They're not kind of just generic shards across right now. I think like the theorem two shots are going to be thinking, 1024, charts, or something like that and maybe 2000 something. I do remember what the last number is, but they're all kind of the same and they're all going to be global. And I really think that if people start modeling these charts as being related to Regions, you can do a couple things.

One is you can speed up the the consensus sign because it means you can you can go way faster in one region. So doing consensus in one continent is way faster than around. The whole planet is speed of light. If you rather Good Earth is pretty big so like, you gotta wait a certain amount of time for propagation of an out of information. If you reduce the size and say you create a region in a part of the world, That looks pretty different and you can keep

subdividing this, right? So if there's a lot of usage in one region, you can keep going down into a city scale. We can go all the way down into kind of a data center scale and Fortune security maps to that, right? So definitely in the smaller scales you're going to be at higher risk but your, your stamping, your way up and into kind of the consensus hierarchy. I think that's one important component and this geographical split also gives you partition

tolerance, right? So, you can imagine one country or one class. And losing access to rest of the internet. And so may be found on the alternate, they can't see or observe all transactions, outside of there's here, but you can still get consistent transactions within that Continental that country or that City. So I think that watching systems have to move into that into that realm. The other component I think is, is really key here. It's hard shouting in an application oriented way.

So, one of the really key things about Computing, in history has been being able to recognize That a lot of the access matters to data and computation use case oriented or a specific kind of where, a lot of the kind of the reason rights for an application or important transactions happen. If you start modeling your system to match the application to use, you get a bunch of performance gains.

So, I sort of expected that will end up having application-specific shards or application domain, and industry-specific charts, that have different parameters weeks for those use cases. So, certain use cases, don't require super hard consistency, right away.

They are Are fine with eventual, consistency and there are other uses where consistency supercritical they don't have to move as fast as it being able to tune your selection there and being able to be on a show that operates one way versus another. It's gonna look really really key piece here. I think. I like the way that this is gonna end up playing out. Is that eventually we're going to split up the consensus protocol part like linearized stability from all of the smart contract.

And we're going to build one layer. That's just around getting linearize ability in this, very kind of hierarchical generic way, that's super scalable. And then we're going to build systems that can do the interpretation of what the linearized and the computation of web that output is at the second layer. And so, I think like, that's already found it happened with him so that we can chain is one important step in that

direction. You have, you know, one important hierarchy split there, where one of the the main the beacon chain is just around, maintaining like the global consensus security and not necessarily doing the competition, the shards. But I think it has to go, like, I think this is gonna end up getting separated outward, many different particles are going to be honed in one consensus layer, which is having figure out with a has to be. Nobody really knows the parameter space yet.

That is going to succeed there, but I just think right now, watching assistants are dramatically way too complicated and they're not going to stand the test of time this way. I think they're going to Split. I think they're going to have layers of them ripped up in the same way. That when you think about the TCP IP stack, these are VIP. Our first of all, two different protocols that together are helped by a whole protocol soup, you know, alphabet soup.

Type set of other protocols, many of whom like have changed a lot over over time and in history. And a lot of this a lot of flows that don't even use the CP anymore use Quick and other kinds of systems. And even when you look at IP itself, it has Change a lot and has all kinds of like in between layer layer things.

So, I think taking another path of the entire Block Chain system with an ietf style view of decomposition of protocols, and really getting at the core problem and building one protocol that solves one problem. Extremely well, and that's it. It was going to lead to the things that are going to stand many decades and that are going to give us the scalability we need. It's like that doesn't like a, my thoughts on where the excavator can go but uh, yeah, everyday like dig into any of

those pieces for there. Yeah. I mean, then thanks so much for joining us. Courtney was like, you know, so awesome till I catch up and like, have this, you know, just a complexity and the richness of everything happening around file coin and put a collapse is amazing. And yeah I think you know we just had beginning right now if the blockchain being live for a few months and you know, people building your applications.

So yeah we're super excited to see how this is gonna play out and kind of the impact is going to have in the coming years. So thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been a really awesome to get to chat about all these topics with you really enjoy talking about all these different area. So it's a really appreciate the chance to do it and yeah really, really fun conversation. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this

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