This is epicenter, episode 457 if guest Ethan Frey. Welcome to App Center to show which talks about two technologies projects and people driving decentralization. And the blockchain revolution. I'm Brian Crane. And today, I'm speaking with Ethan Frey who is the co-founder, who's the founder of cause and was am the founder of confio. And, you know, we're going to get a lot into what it is and kind of impact it has had before we do that. It's just a brief word from our
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far. So including that they became S, first sponsor of ether, JS, an open source, JavaScript library, to help developers connected, theorem and pledge. Some of the tokens to get coin Aqueduct. So, go to tally, dot cash /, download to check it out and yeah, get involved until you cash. So with that, let's go to Ethan, it's great to have you on Yeah, it's good to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Absolutely. So Ethan, we have known each other for quite a while.
It's been I know five and a half years or something. So we were both. We both joined the tenement team around the same time at like very start of 2017.
I think we were something like there was maybe three or four people before us and then it was basically two of us the same time, we were both in Berlin and sort of this what as at the Inception of the cosmos Network. So yeah, it's and of course, Ethan has gone on to do lots of work, especially in the cosmos ecosystem, that has, you know, gotten too much, much traction in much impact as well. So I'm excited to, you know,
finally have him. You have your own but baby, you can just hear a little bit like sort of About You background. Like How did you end up getting involved in the crypto space and in the cosmos ecosystem? More specifically Yeah cool. Yeah. Thanks for that intro. And it was actually really cool 2017, remembering those days and then going out to some meet up back.
Gently 17 another first time I met or like second time at the cafe before that, but with Gavin wood and J-Kwon talking about multi chain, polkadot and Cosmos and Metallica's audience, and it was like this early days of crypto and religion is pretty cool. Cool times. But yeah, I got into I don't know. Cryptic kind of found me like you deny me alone and I Our summers like pitching Bitcoin to be back in 2010, right? And 2011, 2011, I guess as like the new money and yes, 2011.
And I just didn't, I don't know. Like I saw the think, oh, that's kind of cool but like, I don't know, don't do anything different than gold. So like that's not cool. I don't know, like I was not looking for investor. I'm like ever the worst invest in mind, do not accept any investment advice, I give you of what value does valuable.
But like I look at the tech of it and I was kind of like look at you know, No thinking about I should Community currencies and like, you know, postmodern money. And what the next generation information money is when there's no scarcity and like Concepts like this before that because it's kind of like a hobby. I don't know side projects and because we like wow you can make
money on the internet. It's really stable and it's real but I Goldman like well Gold's a bit like, you know, old and then I heard rip off some time and they're like, oh, like 2013, 2014, 13, 13. I was actually some squat near Barcelona. And this guy was tried turning on to Ripple and and they're like, oh that's like you said that decentralize. I ban you know, Swift Network something like that. Goes really fast and like so you can swap currencies. Like I don't do foreign exchange
trading. I'm a traitor. Like what can I do with it? He's like, you can swap currencies. I'm like, okay and actually can't do that all and it was so Time around. They keep coming back because unlike picture stuff to me, right and believe like the technology but not like the I didn't see it because I'm not Trader. I didn't really get the get it from the money aspect and I want something new. And so, like 2014 14, I was at a workshop in Berlin on so chakra. See, which is interested.
And this guy came up to me, the only guy in a suit in the whole place. I'm sure talking and he was trying to invent, like a new Peugeot of money, and it's like, you know, No on blockchain foreground money with the wallets holding all the assets and like you could have different community-based rules, the governance, creating a stuff, right? This is that there's an
interest. Now, he's kind of this Visionary and I got very, very intrigued what he's talking about because he said, you know, you can have his new community govern rules on the money, the money she has rules real money that idea 2014, which is pretty new for me is like, oh that's cool. He actually behave differently. That's interesting.
We convinced our own money so that kind of got me hooked an idea of it. And so he Show me what etherium was like, around Ico time, the world computer ideas and like pointing to Aris Industries which was, you know, Billy became an actress like this incubator of tenement somehow and I don't really know how this everything together, but some help with that like three errors, like that's cool. Like you know, and they saw this ghost stuff, I'm like looking this code and like try to make sense.
And then like started just like there's several like oh I can put a block in tenement. I like to tell you my idea that's really cool idea. So I I wouldn't let myself go and catch up early and go and sometimes 2016 start trying to do my own app and tournament. You know, this is and then somebody else lakh, people watch other people trying to adapt and tournament. And I was like, you know, I still have this summer to GitHub. It's like react signposts. I was like trying to make like a
basically a blog post. It would just be whatever your blog and internet on the blockade. Something with the react app and try to figure out do that and said like yeah it should work on this as like the first step of building program money on my own tenement chain back in 2016. Because I thought that would be, you know, easy, right? And and somehow I started going on there and filing with your bugs and tenement and patching bugs and sentiment because
that's what I did. I was doing web dead for a while and contribute heavily back to open source projects, like mongo and postgres and stuff. So you know, you just patch bugs and Upstream them. So I started doing that and and somehow Buck, he's like, who are you? What are you doing here? Who you working for? Like, no one. I'm trying to build my own money. This is cool stuff. We got going on. He's like, work for us. I'm like I'm My job right now and then, like two months later,
like I got anger, and boss. Will, who's making you work weekend tonight? I said I go and do that. So I said I'm quitting if you make you work nights and weekends. So see ya then I said, hey guys, I'm open and met them in met them in Zurich, November 2016 and they basically Redfield me read build me an IBC I intended Min on POS on everything and yeah, I can't leave it since then. Crow. Amazing, I wasn't actually aware that. You kind of, like, finally through errors Industries, which
is the company. I was also working for in 2015 and 16. So that's and maybe talk a little bit about what did you work on in the time when you were, you know, at tenement or like, at at the company back then, Yes, the first thing I did was really what can I Beltre and try to speed it up. So I did some benchmarking early benchmarks and tests on it and then try to speed it up, which was like, then things are too premature really speed up
anymore. So I guess it's true at the time early 2017, but like now's these bottlenecks and then moved on to try to be the like apps. So, I actually basically took what was based? Coin was just a little app that had demo app and try to make a real app. Clean it up. I show, I turned into, I started doing the first. Of IBC based on the very vague spec. That white paper, I then made said, hey this lapse a limited, let's do something real.
So I built the the first was the cosmos SDK is zero six or seven or eight, especially me building it out, over the summer, with the help from rigel a bit. I built that out heavily. I came up with a whole idea. The rest client LCD was like, we're trying to sign. It was working with Matt and Judd from nomic. Now they're working there and they're trying to get front and apps and they couldn't actually
sign and, you know transaction. So I'm like, okay, let's make this like little small little rest over app that like helps you to the cryptography. Beyond the site server side until we have a proper JSM in a library in six months from now. So yeah, I did this stuff so I'm sorry sometimes because I've got Legacy code, but whatever it was invented, the time to allow the
LLC. Dear Esther idea built SDK out there and then that was kind of Frozen for a lot of internal discussions SDK was put on basically hold to be considered and reconsidered and the meanwhile basically wrote obviously white paper, so if you say anything you're obviously in 2017, that was like I wrote All Speck out of your It, which is now I just went he's obviously got bigger and bigger but the
concept got bigger. The them new job time is basically talking transfer service expect out token transfer with the idea of acknowledgements and timeouts cleanups stuff like that rather than just having these fine forget messages. So a bunch of stuff Merkel proofs Isis 23. I wrote the like client proofs and stuff like that was really, really nice BC and some of the code still around and moved up four times out that like plant food stuff moved out. Or times of repose.
And I think it's in 10 different now. But yeah, if you look away, way, way, way, way back, once I was the author that Cool, very cool. And then what, how do you end up working on Cosimo's? Mmm. Yeah. So I basically first I a little frustrated at the pace in aib because there's a lot of decisions to be made and they're all pretty much made in California time at which is like you know my evening and if you know by 11:00 a.m. their time when they're waking up I was
pretty much talk about work. Usually with 9 p8 8 p.m. in Berlin so I was not really involved in decision making and in fact no one in Berlin was really and it Felt like this injury made somehow. And anyway, the SDK was basically, put on hold indefinitely and nothing really to work on and a few other things, you have blocked and working on. So I said, this is kinda boring, want to build something. So I said, I'm going to build my thing. So I found another company.
Those often hire me, is it cool? I want to build another CK. So I basically took the idea to the first SDK built something called we've. I OV and it basically had, you know, certain early, 2018, I'd protobuf going on there, I had JavaScript And those talking directly to it. So, you had basically cause MGS talking with no light client directly, part of signing messages and calling them.
We had multi cigs in there. Yeah, in 2018 have built out the basic stuff, some basic groups, government's modules, and stuff like that. We're in there as well. And a lot of the and some basic swap talking stuff in there. That was I did a 2018 and then towards the end of that year, I realized that like there was not really a business going around
with this stuff is cool. Head and his team were building is If up, we had a business case, wasn't really maturing and there's a little yeah, internal issues of say and so I got a little, I don't know, I watched SDK go at own pace and go to and peace and then like, you know, get more and more and more and F's. And then I showed up at interchain, that's a really fucking awesome. Sorry, bleep that out, but awesome conference there, 2019 and pressures are too. Of course, one was A jar has.
Yeah the anything conversations in Berlin. Those really awesome really awesome. Like everyone in the class was came. The causal have been launched like three months earlier and like, I don't know. Everyone shut their like is everyone, right? And like, no one even had their own block chains and it's kind of like all these people had a little project small projects, right?
It's amazing group. People show up their three-day most have conversations and discussion and then a hackathon, the end of it and in that I met a lot of cool people and we kind of come together. It's like, let's build something and I realized it like No, yeah, No One's Gonna Take. We've and I'll drop it and they'll look use SDK again but I'm not really want to hack this Decay so much but let's do
something. And then I'm sitting around this table and we kind of got a bunch of people there floating around anyway, it was like me, Aaron regen yahaan who's now an informal formal Taya Shane who's now at stargaze and then somehow Pedro from All Connect should up there and we ended up like so let's make a team. Let's build walls, mm, contracts and let's build Cosmos Market or was mm, smart contracts in SDK and like, sure why not? It's two days.
And, and there's basically three of us were kind of like, they also built the group's module, kind of, in the way multistage stuff. The same time, Shannon Aaron. And then, basically, it was like, yeah. Let me building that and and PV connect on the front end, so it's knocked it out on the weekend. I didn't sleep. It kind of close my eyes for an hour. And yeah, I learned a lot of Stand your house doing amazing stuff there too. With in Rust and we knocked it out those awesome.
We got contractor working those crazy, be uploading contracts and running them. So it's like, you know, don't push it falls over but like if you do it right? Iran says, pretty amazing for us actually, and I get super excited for that. Is it like? Yeah, this is awesome. It's the most awesome project I've worked on in years and like this green field of like building something new and it's compatible. Everything else people using already.
So that was really learned is like you know, don't want to forecast to can go off, man. Make your own version and compete like a really like everyone wants uses tooling. Let's build the tooling, add power if everyone can use it and be compiled everyone. So, that was really cool. And I said, I got a grant from that one of the prizes, got a relatively small Grant to follow up on it. And said, let's all build it, guys. I know, we always do a few hours a week and and every else is too
busy. They're all ctOS. Is like a team ctls. And I was only when they said, okay, I quit my job and start doing this. So yeah I did and three years later it's into it is Cool. Awesome. Well maybe we can take a zoom out a little bit because so webassembly right I think a lot of people have heard of webassembly, right? Webassembly is often being kind of touted as. Oh, it's like you know powerful platform etherium.
I think at one point was like, thinking of adopting webassembly, you know, there was some other projects that were like very heavily emphasizing webassembly. I think especially, I might be definitive is always like, Assembly webassembly. Can you can you tell us like what is webassembly in? Like, what's interesting about webassembly? Webassembly. It's a funny history is really trying to work faster because webassembly but nothing really did the web anymore except that
it can often run the web. There's a project called a SMGs that from a sealer that was trying to like an optimized JavaScript so you could pick up a legit or a state faster. Anyway, then they basically think of webassembly which is a VM and I think your theory done two or three layers late usually it would have used it. It's a very, very simple virtual machine. It's a 32-bit processor with some stat calls. It has like 150 operations. It's a pretty simple. Relatively simple architecture.
It involves no runtime, no system. there is I think a way of allocating memory, And like no garbage collector, just like allocate blocks of memory. Like, expand the memory space. I want to have access to see how much memory should have access to and expand it. Literally right. Like, that's all it has and everything else is added as an
optional import or export. If you want to expose something, you make an export and if you want to call into external system in part and you have to assume you have this this Dynamic that like this is a did not have access to files. No access to network nothing. And I think if you The jvm which is the first real popular VM there java virtual machine that
came out there. And that was basically like an a-hole runtime, you have like, the virtual machine, which has a 32-bit architecture with the stack and pushing stuff on it and how it worked. But also the system library of how to interact with the system and how to interact with files and how to interact with its whole pose.
It can fly in system. Depending operating system, basically not just a virtual machine, and this, it finds a processor to find a processor and nothing else in anyone can plug any system, they want to like there's a product called Z webassembly system, interface which is kind of a posix like interface, which is, as if we expose exports into it, they can use it. And then you can say, okay, we only give you access to these files and that's all you see,
the whole world and you can control the controller somehow. If you compare it with, you know, like it BM that people are kind of like humiliating the in the boxing context. It's you know, the theory of virtual machine. So what are the advantages or maybe? Entities that this virtual machine has versus T, if your inversion machine. So the first thing is it's general purpose, which is a good and bad thing, right?
The evm is built for ethereum blockchain or a blockchain and it comes all its pre compiles for computes and it comes the whole lot of understanding of like where things are called and interactions of calling other functions. It's very and these call methods, which require blocking is like the virtue of the language of VM is tied to blockchain. You've called functions create functions, like, with bytecode, like is tied to itself is Is this concept of evm? It's not separated from the
runtime. It's like the evm is not just a machine, it's the runtime, which means it's like, very like the jvm is, for one use case, right? And it's it has use case and it's very tailored which could be very good because it's tailored towards it. The bad thing is you have no tooling around it and you know opposition around it and I think we see as being slow, we see has issues. And I think what happened with webassembly is it's a very
generic one. Very general purpose, one and so suddenly, a lot of different languages. Start targeting it. They said, oh, we can write C and compile that 12 assembly, right? We compile C++ when you pile of rust, we can probably webassembly. There's a project called tiny goat called go to webassembly. There's a bunch of other projects they're like in progress for lots of other
languages and I mean works. Best for static type languages, low-level languages right now but a lot of different languages being compiled like Haskell there, some Haskell the web simulator She can take others you language, compile it to as a back-end and they can just run out like they run on a Intel machine architecture. The run on a Mac and one arm architecture, right? They run on some older embedded CPUs, they can run on awasum webassembly VM.
So I think that fact, first allows us whole tooling of lots of different front-end coding ever, build your own language and your own self. You can use existing code. And the second thing you do is because of that interface. What else? Tries to build other people? Try to build the VMS and so people just interpreters for it faster and faster, right? So there's like an interpreter built in your browser. There's probably two or three of
them out there, right? One from Google one, from Mozilla, I think one from Safari, there is y, z, which is a polkadot which interpreter, which doesn't, is not a jit. A lot of them will take that y z code and compile it into optimized, local code run it. Their sandbox local codes to make it much faster. It's like an opposition called just-in-time compilation there. Wah smooch we use.
And while some time with your, to time competing things, which also do either pre compiling or just-in-time compiling of the code to native code and run it to get really fast compilation. There's some other ones out there too.
So there's a bunch of smart people doing it and you're not tied to one project interpreting it, you're not tied to one project building, tooling around it, you'll leveraging 56, different language, ecosystems entirely tooling of Rusty, can use just out of the box with webassembly and then you have like five or six different back ends you can choose from and who's Gonna write you the VM who implements a VM that runs
swasey. So it's a standard basically, it's a standard middleware, and it's not really tied to a blockchain or anything else. People running redis in webassembly system interface, right? So you can do anything in it and then allows you to Leverage is huge of Toulon and people are working on optimizing it as fast as I can. So Russ is really heavily optimized, amazing, a pile engineers and it wasn't time. The compiling was them to like the most efficient bike or they
can. And they gained some really, really impressive stuff. They've really Of compiler low level designers work in this full time that we're not paying for that. Like, multiple people are paying for, and like, top-of-the-line stuff that you're not trying to recruit them as your own blockchain project, just like Leverage them. So, I think it's because it's a whole ecosystem and it's so compatible.
Generic it allows us huge ecosystem of many companies to build two Optical lab rate, which is too powerful at the time. The evm was launched, it was not around, it was not available, it was kind of in some weight idea stage. Age. It was I understand when they built the TV and they had to that was the best the time they could have done.
But like now I see that came out later and say hey this is a whole ecosystem, we can use it and then we just customize a few things on it. Like the entry points, we expose the contracts and we can run it. So polkadot is running out quickly webassembly as well. Thanks, that's very helpful when you win now. Now, let's talk about cars and walls. Mmm, I guess, one thing that probably a lot of people are not aware of, and maybe you can talk
a little bit about it, right? But he's starting in cause in the cosmos SDK, right? You have this concept that there's like different plugins, right? So you have these different modules and then they will be like it, you know, module that's like it's taking module or more, the IBC module and and These different modules.
And then, you know, the different SDK blockchains can say, oh, we use some of them, we develop some of our own and then, you know, cause some wasn't right, basically means like, okay, you taking this webassembly and you putting it as a module. Inside, the cosmos SDK. Is that is that correct? And like what, what are some of the? What are some of the, you know, the consequences of like putting the webassembly inside? This Cosmos SDK framework. Work. Yeah, it's a kind of funny question.
I should so like you're right. There are these modules into the SDK is pretty amazing, plug-in set so you can add different modules and easy to kind of like import code from here and your own code and extend. It is meant to extensible. It is it's very sensible. What? It does require though is a hard for that every time you want to change it. So if you write like you deploy a new amm module, right? And you want to add it, then you have to basically get that murder.
Has into the main code base the code and then get the entire Block Chain to stop switch out the binaries out there. Run some script now it's a little more optimized I've paid for that was like a whole dump. Dump State restart like three our issues now. It's down to like five ten minutes but still did. According to our block is stopped or just restart and come with a new code to add the new module, remove module update it, right? And that is a lot better than working on like Bitcoin.
We try to change it, right. The core logic bitcoiners e-cash but still not The smart contract of element speed, so it makes sense for core functionality like governance and staking. But we said, hey if you're smart contracts, a lot of things just like Adam on top, they don't really matter. You want to play them quickly. So what we did is we don't store the walls of inside of your, the bottom VM. So we wrote this entire like we took the webassembly virtual
machine from Hua summer. We wrapped it with some standard callbacks. So it basically explain its place in the world. How can talk to blockchain, so, a program can also say, hey query, this other part of the Block Chain or send tokens over here or call this other contract. Right? We exposed some functionality to it in a certain frame, certain functions to it. It's okay. These are extra special functions for cause of awesome contract on top of normal Watson contract.
And so we built the virtual machine and is the rust into a busy of Library which we embedded in a module. So it's a bit crazy. We built basically a rust model library and a dll. And then embedded that into a go binary, just writing here. And the walls and code, is never actually not binary, the wadham college upload in a transaction just like in kind of ethereal you upload code.
So the actual the virtual machine and the runtime is in this module, which then actually calls in every other module the system. But the actual that was imposed to upload a transaction stores in state-of-the-state other thing, and it just loads at code when needed Yeah, that's an important thing, right? Because the and the cosmos 60k
Paradigm, right? Like somebody wants to modify some plugins and module and then that requires changing this code, new binary, you know, like all the validators have to change its a lot of friction and here the thing is, I can write a bunch of code. I put it into a transaction, the transaction gets sent and then this was VM kind of like, Rap stat. And then it has that code,
right? And so nothing has nothing outside has to change but now all of a sudden you have like that code in there and I guess that's particularly attractive if in and I guess that's also where calls them was in. The has been has found a lot of usage in the cosmos. Ecosystem is like oh I want to create a general smart contract chain, right? Where everyone can sort of, put your own contracts on that because that's something that
calls. Mrs. D k with Without something, a cousin wasn't doesn't really support. Well, Yeah, and a lot of things in the move faster and they don't want the whole chain, like, a purpose change of your decks. I think they've got really good decks on as Moses. They based on balance our ideas and some reason curve and they basically, I think you saw it so well, understood question, right? But now we try to build stuff on top of it.
Like, okay, lending protocol and you want to do some leverage option stuff on it. They're like, okay, we actually want the faster cause I'm Awesome on it. And if T is moving too fast, like feel trying to coach him go and have tea thing, but it's like it's months behind the space. So like, I think, Think things that Mutiny move faster, it's essential and so contracts, only the privilege of a user account external account. They have more privileges than another account than you do.
And I do this on a coat, this have their own, the Logics, on the blockchain. But if no more privileges, they can hold token to move tokens of different rules. So it's great for things like that, which are simple app logic that you want to add and I think the SDK is amazing. Things like, oh, we don't change our fees are handled won't change our consensus works and govern votes work. We need to change our like you know, a spam middleware.
And we need to import IBC as native control, which is totally trusted 100, trusted verified code on here, which is stable and not changing the foundation for the things. So, sdks great way of composing, lots of different projects together to build foundational levels right? Where's cause I'm awesome, said, okay, if you want to do just like business logic a pelagic, not foundational blockchain
stuff. Let's do it there and I think it's a great combination so that you have five, six different teams, composing stuff, and adding things in there as modules. So, you can build this SDK base layer, and cause I'm awesome. Okay. Now all those hundreds of deaths that want to run on top of a chain or thousands of deaths. Now that want to run on top of a chain, you can just do it right. You don't worry about that
platform. You don't worry about who's paying what content to say what the gasp fairies are. You just worried about, like running your logic. So I think it allows these two things up side-by-side very well. Yeah, but then like you mentioned this Moses like, osmosis right? Doesn't have generalized, more contracts is not like anybody can just go and like, put some stuff on on a smooth surface, but they also, I think leveraging calls them awesome in
some ways. Can you talk a little bit about Ike? Because on the example, of like, generalized, smart contract chain, right? Like Juno is one example, probably the best-known example in the cosmos. Right where you have, this costume wasn't chained and like, you know, lots of different people building like lots of different stuff on that. But can you talk about the other example, right, where you using causing walsman in a more controlled way you and more
permission way? So a number of chains of actually adopted a little more conservatively than Gino has. So there's no early adopters of Gino and both from cyber Congress. Some early, I mean, before that without you Terror and secret, the first ones as permission less, but the first one, modern obviously, one of those, you know, I guess what it does. Most of the same thing I'm stargaze, which is basically permission to contract.
It doesn't mean that allows you to add a block code requires government vote to allow you to use your code, right? So they basically want to vet all the code on their thing. It's a way of saying, hey start this almost activities on there and stuff. So if you want to upload a project, an FTE basically. Hey I'm Billy project that ft. I want to launch a new chain, okay? Yes. Okay and they say, hey now this is some like D5 product. You'll want to chain, don't come
to a chain. So, they control that first step of being able to upload that contract instantiate it. Once it connects on the chain is permissionless, right? Like you do anything you want with it. Once on the Chain, you basically just have to ask to go in the
front. Our. And after that runs, just like any other contract, any other chain has, most of the same thing, they kind of wanted to have a like whatever you can experiment and you know and do stuff and you know and you're going to in the end, you know, they wanted more like a App Store feel Force, Moses they wanted to have like you know five protocols may be on there the building on there they can integrate into the ecosystem.
There slowly allow them in there which allows them to scale out. Not like your general purpose but it's okay. We can find him Dev teams building from projects and they don't have to get the Core code base. They can't break a code, they can't break, there's the chain, then we can build our own little project. So, actually, we, they basically just make agreements with
projects beforehand. Like if you want to run as Moses talk to them and if they like it project to say cool, when you finish it will let you go on there more or less, right? It's like you basically get permission first. And once you do that, you just write your code like you're doing, you know, you go through a process to get approved to go on the chain and watched on the Chain, then it runs like anywhere else. So let's Except you've acted acts on chain, which actually pretty cool.
So, some people leveraging it for letting protocols etc. Etc. I think it's I think that's an option. We came early on and we put that early on, as an option and it's really being used as year. So, people being like, I want to have cause I'm Awesome by wanna control of a nap chain and cause I'm awesome Cheney one. Actually had them both Best of Both Worlds. Like yeah, an evacuated set of applications on my chain but allow third-party devs, easily accident.
And yeah, I guess you you. She tear our right is actually important because probably a lot of people are not aware that you know, Taro is also using calls and awesome and you know, all these things that were being built on Tara. I mean I guess again, with the exception of a bunch of foundational stuff that was like, part of the chain logic. But you know, that the applications people were building on terror were built in in calls. Mausam, they were the first doctor doesn't want them.
I want to say the only stable thing UST was not, cause I'm awesome. UST was not going to cause some awesome. That predate casu. Marzu net change. Had it changed UST. DST lunar whole thing treasury, I understand it, but that was existing before hand, but all the other protocols, so Terror, Swap, and even anchor and mere protocol, be Luna.
And then the whole series of levana and Marsh and all these other protocols pumping out there, all got some awesome they would older version upgrade actually two recent version Um, but yeah, it was its own cosmology because some children have IBC support. That kind of actually ties into my follow-up question here. So call some awesome you have this. Basically kind of you know,
separate container, right? We're like code lives and you can kind of like things happening there and then you have like, you know, other Cosmos modules. Like, you know, for instance, there's an IBC module, right? Which is like sending transaction to other chains, so I guess, you know, the cause of autism contracts have to somehow talk with these other modules or So how does that interface work? And are they like some limitations around this?
Yeah. So we basically expose some modules, what does should Json and past Jason basically because we chose easy debugging us you know if you can play on Jason being they're not part of of talk to ya hon Vincent, Chase on the best way to see easily debug it and kept rolling. But basically passed between that it calls a system.
With the Json blob says, hey talk to bank on it, and we Define an interface for the contract, they can call the bank module, 2 Min Berto, contain call into the sticky mud. We'll just take tokens and delegate and claim the rewards. They can call into the governance. Want to vote. For example, they call the IBC module. 10 tokens also allow custom IVC call back. So you can actually have an IVC protocol built as a contract. I want to get that later and we allowed to have custom callbacks
right the thing called a custom. So basically you say gate, we give you a standard set of things, but change will all want to tie their own ones in there. So we have an extension point that you don't have to Fork. Cause I'm awesome. You don't have four car VM. Your own Fork wasn't the anything he's a whole Teamwork. And this is an early thing.
We did to early on to make sure if you're not forfeit, and say, if you want to expose adex osmosis you can add a special call back to take a. These we have a new structure here, which can add embed into other message, called custom. And our custom type is, as most of message, and it runs here and allows you talk to decks. So it basically defined format Json format that you can use for, for the finding call, back your native module, and then on your on your Block Chain.
You basically interpret that to do those things, Video message Api between the contract and your native blockchain and a number of people use that quite a few have used that as extension point and I want to actually mention this about Justin cause I'm awesome. Awesome, awesome is not just in Cosmos anymore, this running on a substrate chain which I think is a pretty impressive, engineering feat, so composed of Finance has launched a poker, a chain.
And they have Cosmos and running in substrate and it's integrated with the bank module it's not I think tied this Sticky module IBC That vaccine yet but they just run it on. You can run contracts like a Stevie 20 contract and you can't have tea on it. Can you same contracts? They're different Jazz front end but like the back and run the same, they uploaded actually unmodified contracts onto it and running and substrate chain, which is pretty cool.
And what's the, what's the benefit of that? If, you know, as you said that, polkadot already uses webassembly. So, why Port cousin was a mantra polkadot Yeah, I don't know why I put that. You see what we simply? Honestly, they use webassembly as a base layer, the whole strange writings webassembly, but like the same way everything's written in go.
It rustic possibly, so, but you have upgraded your hard work, the chain, and I guess, in theory, can hard for the chain without a restart or like automatically, we started getting upload it, but all permissioned. It's a very complicated thing. If a recompile, the whole thing, and then you upload these pieces and I still have yet to see it
be done flawlessly. But They're the ideas basically allow easier upgrades, but still don't rush it and basically you have one new web assembly binary, you're stretching out to, right? Like it is a giant web sembly project. Not smart contract, they have, but just allow third parties, just to change developers. Same with SDK, does it is used as a Target.
They also have something called ink, which is smart contract language, which compiles webassembly, and they upload that, and run that as user controlled things, but it's not really caught on It was actually existing before casu. Marzu must have dreamed of, right? Like, I saw demos of it. Like, when I wrote, cause I'm awesome and they looked over. I saw that they had done something similar, but never took off, I'm I think overly complicated and but I don't know, I don't really know why.
The truth is ink is never taken off over three years of the funny about three and there's a project composable, it's really tied into the Poke that you can system that had tried ink and refresh rate with it. So frustrated, sigh to Port, cause a malls in into a substrate, create Each pallet they're called, I think like a modules, the VM and talk to us to figure out and then, you know, make it compatible because they thought cause I'm also such a nice to Target and writing
contracts. So I don't know, I don't know why, I don't know if that's good business choice, but they did it and they're happy with it and they're running their stuff on it when they're trying to work at BC as well. So that's cool. But I think the point was it was designed actually same way that the webassembly virtual machine is not tie, just a block, change, or Theory, blockchain the cause of War. Virtual machine system. We have runs great. We have a binding in the cosmos.
We've love to bed in the cosmos but like, they have met somewhere else and it can be embedded other places. Well, so is actually relatively relatively Universal Target, which I think might, hopefully. In the next few years extends, I'd love to see it like an avalanche or near some like that also running. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, maybe that ties into the question of kind of weird, you see.
Cousin wasn't going, is there a lot of what does the development roadmap look like Yeah. So our original goal released 10 back last fall and fall 2021. And I think our goal is and to get changed using it, right? All upgrading to use it is an IBC enabled version of it using Stargate, IVC, all that stuff that took some months. And this this bring time I was amazed went from like, you know, 45 teens using it to like, you know, 13 now it's over 20 change using it, right?
So we first was like, exhales deeply. Using it. And the second thing I'm working on is getting more devs on and Tara did a great job getting dibs on it. Do you know as Moses they're getting a lot more devs on this stuff. And we're working thing called Academy Academy, that cause amazon.com and we are trained up depth. So right now we're doing is basically trying to build the ecosystem. So we got the change running it, you have 20 chains plus running it.
Now we're giving free classes, free tutorials, free tooling for devs alert, it to really build the deck. You system from several hundred to a thousand deaths in Are many more like a theory of its huge number one and fill this out. And what I really see is differentiator and where I want to work on and what I am working on besides like, helping people building tools and tutorials for people is IVC.
So inner chain contracts. It's like I did this thing say oh and a hack at them a demo day at the pool act on it and like Jake did some and some guy from Tai Chi from Japan. And another one it's pretty awesome that you can basically deploy a contract and two different chains, they talked Each other with like no trusted Bridges. No multi sakes. Nothing could be hacked in the middle them just like pure guaranteed message passing with complete Security by b.c. and the contractor told the app
logic. Like if you if you send a message says meant token or mints token or not, I don't know. Over make a governance about or control this dowel or or change the threshold of my LP pool thing or whatever you want to do.
It's kind of entertaining accounts but like so much more powerful because you can actually write contracts both sides and that was not possible until you actually You had multiple important chains, running Cosimo's 10 and we waiting for like three, four months ago is like actually okay, great like Juno secret Juno's Moses or not 10 and
secrets appearing very shortly. I think those are three of the top change behind the Hub on the ecosystem and terms of market cap, at least and there are running. Injective also another big change are also running it so like a lot of people writing it now.
So most of the changes that the Hub are running cause I'm awesome which means you can actually build protocol expands 45 change using IBC messages and write an entire not just your app logic, but actually the protocol communication there, that's like, writing your own API servers and talking blotches of blockchain, no Bridge facts involved. And that's really wise the future.
And that's really what I'm going to be a lot of work into not just not just building it. Also documenting try to explain it but also trying to build these things out there because hey I'm trying to build something doesn't exist yet. Just hard to teach people tutorials from the doesn't exist. So I going to build a stuff first and then show you how to build But I just bought some prototypes out there and it's amazingly fast.
So, I think one thing we did talk about before on this podcast, we maybe some people have heard of are aware of is in Cosmos this concept of entertaining counts, which basically you have like an accountant one chain and then you can control it from another chain. So let's say, for example, there's a project Quicksilver, right? And they doing liquid staking
with that. So that this quick silver chain control and account on Cosmos, it can cause my top, it can you stake Adam's booking governance, you know, claim rewards you Do all those things and able is controlled by another Block Chain that you know then issue like a liquid second token. So that's like an example of interesting accounts are obviously many examples now. What you're describing right? It's basically goes even a step further, right?
Because you basically have like contract code on both sides realize here, it's kind of like letting the quicksave example, it's kind of like contract code on the one side, right? And then the other hand is just like a normal account, can you? I talked a little bit about use cases. Like, what are some of the things that, you know, you could like you'd be interested in building or you can imagine people building, you know, these cross chain causing walls and maps. Yeah, I will, I will.
So I think in some theoretical way with token transfer and your hand accounts may be able to build anything may be able to and using queries, we add that like those might be funneled, principal say these are holy principles, we can build anything with them but they're inefficient develop things. So I think for first taking is fine, because you'll have to take that often, right? Like you can just every 12 hours now. You put your money in res, take
it, right? So I have to go so much but let's say I have a lending protocol. Does liquid and decks another chain, right? The current way of, let's just say, that's just right. Now, the producing protocol assuming is all exist, entertaining account, inquiries and token transfers. If I have a protocol here, the ones that liquidated X over
here, right? First, I move one message, move, my tokens over here, awaiting a response right now, as you know, get call back in the response, you need a dowel to control it. And we're working with IG team to like, you actually triggered a call back when it finishes, then you say, okay, now, make a swap With this initial accounts to make a swap of that money is sent over here for other token, right? It may have succeeded or failed, if it succeeds.
Then I query to see actually, how much they get, right? The full amount I got. Okay, then call overheating can count you transfer tokens back to get their taxes back, right? And that's a lot of here, make a request getresponse, make a request getresponse. He's also requests right in here has orders the whole thing. Now let's say hey this is actually a common use case. This is not something you do once. There's something eating all the time, it's York, uh, business case.
I want to employ the off my set. I'm gonna deploy a contract here and the contract here. Then what they do say is they've done protocol which is move tokens, swap them at this price, and send me all the results back. If the price, if you don't make that price, if the money is too low, right? The price is, if the market won't trade this price, they return my original funds back, right? That's a really simple logic, and not the only one that so, but we're Not going to wait for
like a go code. Six, eight months, 12 months to build some new go logic with this very specific use case, integrating some debt on this one change. They know we want to watch it now so we could do. Now I wrote a query right now we could do this very quickly and basically say this now we write these two contracts here.
They do that if you trust it so well I can say, okay here liquidate at this price it was in one message back and then you a call back, you know, whatever one obviously message, it will do this logic and then your callback saying, okay I liquid at this. Great stuff or I fail to liquidate and your money back, right? Like, you get it right away that I think will allow people to do Integrations. They couldn't even conceive of. That's like that's faster, right?
This is faster, but it actually can only conceive. I've only got one more. So I'm working something called wind, Dow w, y and d dou. And we, I think, the second stuff might be like that first would authors, demo authors a prototype and give it to y'all. It's free stuff, right? We doing this. For you everyone. I have a query like users privacy price Oracle as most issues like imported and waiting 40. Walk out there we finalized. But the next one is this.
I think the next level a really deep integration. So imagine you have a decks on one chain and you want to make another decks, another chain that decks wants to launch a subduction of the chain, right? The subjects is own separate liquidity. Right? So it's gonna have to own issue of liquidity and is very small, is not really that popular, but actually have all the credit other chain, but maybe I could actually not make it generic
protocol that works for anyone. But I will make a special contract between my sub parent deck to my child actors, like a permission IBC content. Like a like an encrypted or authenticated IBC connection. That just runs from my parent decks to my child X, right? And I will move 1% my liquidity over here but I like it. Have price information of all the rest, liquidity over here. So here's actually reference price. The reference price is here,
right? And you actually had the full reference price here and that's actually what you use over here. You will assume they have that value and you can trade a little bit liquidy very quickly just like ATM or branch bank and so maybe it's a minute out of date of the actual price over here, right? And you have a little slippage here. You can maybe, but you only can move a 1% liquidity, only can pull a little bit windy out here. You can't put too much out
anyway, right? Like you can't put too much over here, so if you run it you run in it and they get a new price update. But the meantime or things are not moving too heavily, you basically get immediately access, you have to call IBC swaps. You get immediate access like a local decks like immediate swap response right away. Immediate responses from a decks locally with the same liquidity effectively as the parent decks. So they basically shifted this as a branch Bank.
This able to provide a virtual liquidity and much higher amounts and still Guard against Bank runs, which I think is pretty amazing. And like this idea of like Protocols are not just like copying themself over change, or you're just like, okay, we're like kind of like something like that. Like, we've moved collateral over change, but actually integrating operations over multiple chains, is I think a revolutionary concept that no one is really grasped or even build out yet.
So I think one project I'll be doing besides knocking stuff out like, you know, here's how you swap on a Juno's. Moses, you know, swap on as most as dead from Juneau with IBC message and you know, this has been a discussion for a while now since Lisbon and besides that kind of stuff I want to work on basically building up next. Integrations of multi, chain applications are truly multi chain deliver multiple change and like balance maturity model change. Thanks so much for the
explanation. That is very cool. And like, yeah, it's just amazingly powerful, right? Like, that's where you really see the kind of like multi
chain. I mean already, the cosmos ecosystem is like had such an explosion of activity and, you know, we've seen IBC be so powerful just for talking transfer and I was always the thing that shocked me the most with IBC, you're surprised me the most was just like, how actually good to user experience was, you know, I think, what's most Like really great job at that and not just as Moses like
others. But in now I think having all of these more advanced things, right with with, you know, more powerful, IVC stuff with cousin was mm. It's going to be really like weird and mind-bending. I think when those come come out. You were going bought a chain wallet involved have to suggest. I think there's an amazing job they did as Moses. I agree. It was amazing job at it.
For ux like, when it came out, they basically listed all of your accounts on 10 different, chains or 20 different chains, right? Like I'm one little board. You hit the pause withdraw. Like, you have to go some other account and do something and then like, sign into other other blockchain app. Over there. Go to a bridge, weight, whatever. Know he's like, honest Moses app. It shows you when you click the button deposit like it actually
under the hood call. Another chain to tell him to transfer it signs a transfer, my situation related to move over there and 10 seconds. 20 seconds later in your account like with an almost no fees like that's super fast and super cheap and you only have to worry about it. All you remember is like, oh my ledge. I see different chain ID on this thing. I'm signing it. But like it's really like so transparent and that was amazing to really make that whole like you can Bridge liquidity, it
transparent. So, I think, once you build these things I'm talking about behind the scenes and the back end like this, what a friends. They're so transparent, right? Like they just are smooth and think they did a killer job and ux and love to see what the you know. Have those people also involved in these next level discussions and see what kind of ux they can design for these multi chain
world. One question I have here is, you know, one of the big arguments that the theorem is always made and that's some other chains like Salon I for example was also emphasizing a lot of. Is this idea of like you know, composer Ability and it's such an advantage to have, you know, contracts that are in the same VM, you know, where you can, you can like make like Atomic transactions, right?
Like make one transaction that affects like, you know, different contracts in the same transaction and, you know, it all executes at the same time or it fails. How, how do you see that? Because that's that was often. Also, one of the criticisms right of the kind of Cosmos.
IBC concept is because, you know, you have like a transaction happening on chain a and then it triggers something on chain be. But do you know, you can sort of make the transaction to, like, trigger something on chain a and chain be like simultaneously that talk a little bit about like how do you see these this issue and how do you think that what Impact of that going to be when you actually have into chain applications, the way you described.
I think it's a good point and I think this message is harder it's not were so it's easier to called locally and I think the idea, the app chain where every app had one little use case, right? Like one is just add x. + 1 is just tokens and one is in the fifties and one is a landing protocol. And one is like this other little piece and actually need five change. We're going to useful device, ecosystem is kind of limited,
right? So I think the extension adapting if you're going like actually maximalist everyone like a little looking to hit the limits. However A lot of the new architectures are going for this thing. Like near sharding, already is like a sickness caused any way between event and they realize that they can't scale up and like a theorem hit the limit and ever roll ups and so effectively like yeah.
Okay, you can pose a theory on but like every girl's a polygon or arbitrary more something that optimism and like Phantom and they're like just throwing somewhere else because they can't now there's like crappy Bridges between them. They are like hacks all the time because actually like composable hits limit. Then in slums like we're Portuguese scale. But like we're centralized VC chain that like V every, you know, every two weeks. So like they have limits here, right?
Answer clearly like having not just vertical but horizontal scalability gives you so much more resilience, right? The problem is how do you do it? So thank you. Want to have like a useful model commit for Taps, always work together all the time. They should be the same chain, they should be composed, really nicely, they're really tightly integrated. They should integrate one chain but their, their apps that we don't interfere with all the time. We negate them, you know,
occasionally, right? Or every few hours or like we don't call like, in all the time, So like, in Quicksilver quicksilver's on one chain and Stakes on the Hub, and it doesn't need to be there like every single transaction. It just needs to know how to like a deposit or withdrawal handle some stuff. It does its own things, but they'll have to be like this, they just have to be able to securely be able to actually operations. So I think it's a whole class of things that don't need this
immediately. See that possibility and then just come to the point of design. It protocol design. So, I mean, a lot of dead skin from JavaScript and have issues of this stuff but like you Becoming becoming a JavaScript dumbbell. IBC straight upright. Like what come from like a serious, like background in distributed systems or like
architectures. Like protocol design you have must have wrestled with like actually like okay, what's a Master Slave and like multiple Master database systems or like message to use and like Concepts like this back-end Concepts it. Like I don't need a phds. I'm just saying that, like, someone's rest with a lot of these stuff.
They've had actually large scale back and web systems have Have distribute Nature's and you have to learn this stuff anyway so like once you've dealt with this stuff microservices you kind of get some ideas. Okay? How to architect stuff and these ideas are the same ideas in 5 BC, so it's just like a different concept.
So I think a lot of his training, your mindset how to design them, but what design, properly takes more time design, it should be easy to implement and they can be able to do most things as long as you can wait a little bit and you don't need that giving a pose. It's like I do action at hold it like a token transfer if it fails or turns your money, Atomic. It is atomic over a longer time span. So you can build all of that functionality is just a little hard to design it.
That's all. And so clearly, if you want to have things always together, you stick them together and same changes, great. But like if they need to be a little looser, coupling you can have very secure loose. Couplings over multiple change. Cool. Yeah, thanks so much and yeah, I think the near point was interesting because I did the podcast will be, we on Alexander like a few, I don't know. Previously, two months ago, something like that. And that was a disappearing.
We just talked about there as well, and I thought it was very fascinating, how they are, you know, chose to do to have this kind of asynchronous nature even if contracts are on the same chart, you know? Because they were like the benefits outweigh Having this composability because it allows them to you know, move contracts between different charts and the developer sort of it doesn't have to care, right? Like where they are because they behave the same way and so that
was a very interesting. Yeah, like different perspective. Yeah. I like yeah. There's my guys. Yeah, absolutely governance. He wanted to talk about governance as well. What's on your mind when it comes to governance? Getting governance is like the onions for its territory and I mean you were also around when you're trying to design the POS governance for that and I think in 2017 actually having some like on chain vote control.
Critical blocking features was like this crazy idea of heresy almost you know, hardfocus only way voting right? Like so it's normal. Now that is on chain governance doing things like switching parameters and you know releasing funds and you know controlling upgrades that's normal. These days, right? But they got was kind of like five years ago like crazy and like POS was like this crazy invention that no one trusted actually work and py W is only way.
So these are proved themselves and I think you watch that same Evolution the same way that Dows have now come from mainstream suddenly, they realize, okay, open up this up and now people's rusted and forehead, like those run, everything is doubt, throw tokens on their block them. They're great. And I think it's a problem because the same people that were nay saying it for years, didn't really learn, just how government works. Let's use it, copy it, blindly
copy paste. And are now producing a lot of bad designs actually. A governor signs, he's never really understood. Why? It worked the first place. So, there's some doubt, they were quite well. A lot of those are membership-based ones, which actually like one person, one vote, and they actually have like time trusted ones. Those can work amazingly. Well, right. Like more locked out something and or even nouns I think are
interesting. A lot of these other ones are just like one taco and votes, take it pump and dump things like people, it is, they flashed. Borrowing tokens to take over the governance this happened before I write like and I think like wait you can't have a flash loan, be able over the governs of your protocol is not secure anymore. It's like giving up. You vote financialized, your protocol. So think is he safe guards there?
So I've been think about this like since I have launched and since like you know Sonny this famous 0% attack commission attack attack, whatever on the Hub, like we're like their issues with this governance, like you can do lots of things with, it's very powerful, but has limits yet. Understand the limits, you understand what it works. It doesn't work. Right?
Really understand this situation and I've been like, I felt like I was doing a voice in the wilderness for a long time because like, everything no doubt, it's work, great as just a hub is works. And like it works for the Hub. It's not work for your little chain. That has a ten million market cap or 5 million market cap. It might not be secure, is to give the Hub that is a real
community. And has proven a lot of these gals have small, market caps are insecure with this with their logic and I think it wasn't till I pushed up here. We actually at the talk, I did. I didn't read foundations without proof of Engagement which was like a proof of authority. Proof of stake mixing. They got like no traction and I wrote a white paper next year and we build a 40 grade. So I'm, you know, if someone's will have proof of Engagement, look at T, great.
Every medium article explained technically how it works, it's like proof of an authority and proof of stake together, an Imaging function, which I think is interesting privileges. I could go on for a long thing but it's one piece of experimentation, right? Of this of what you have to prove steak. Did the Pope's take authority,
you can decide other systems. And I think we really need to experiment, understand limits of the systems, we have understand where they work well, and where they don't work, and it was really like metallic last summer in summer 2021. You posted beyond the coin, waited talking with the governance, I believe in terms of the D gov and where the limits are, and it's kind of theoretical thing you talk about
soulbound tokens now. And for me, that's like, okay, sure that's why I was, pitching covid-19 that we have soulbound tokens which are basically proof of authority. Which you have engagement who reputation, but your reputation
is token cannot transfer, okay? Clearly got Transportation sell it. Do you have your reputation on the change cannot sell or buy, which is your time in the chain and if your money, so, if you're like the old-time, this done stuff, but don't have any money on the game. You should have any vote and you have much money, but no say and do anything. Who are you?
Just like this mixture of like actually having done work and actually having money on the table and like putting your money, where your mouth is. So I think that combination is what experiment improve engagement T grade. And it's just one experiment, right? Just one experiment here. Is that the answer. I think it's an interesting space we opened up and I think I look at Dow Dow which is a really, really cool project on Juno. So you know, big Heritage, a
cartel for doing that one. They've had like no raise self, organized Community just doing things they've gotten like over dozen deaths I believe without funding just believing Dallas which is I think it's the most successful is the most successful nandi 5 project the on cosmology. Mmm, so dou dou that zone and you can launch your own doubt like that and so they have you know multisig type gals.
Like you vote people in. It's just you know who those who you have doubts, based on tokens, just like the standard. I was just in theorem everywhere. You have doubts basing nft holding you have Dows with mixed
token waiting. We're building a module to extend it for window, which is using like curved style multi-level token waiting and like to take that One and any it will sub dowels work flows between like you can partially delegate Authority a stubbed out as these people is supported here through overridden and these larger stuff like Aragon is building back on a theorem before they kind of died out a
petered out there. Building all these cool tooling out there so I think it's a great tool kit because it building a lot of components to allow people to mostly point and click on the web interface Builder, own doubts but access to all kinds of different models.
All kinds different rules and and I built a lot of these early contracts in 2020 2021 is like demo contraction, multi cigs and voting stuff and they took this stuff at built UI and is went with it, they like they gone Way Beyond why bill.
So I'm really really impressed with them and I think it really you know shows that Cosmos is not a theory of, its Cosmos is really the Forefront of governance and it has been I mean like what was launched the Hub was already Cutting Edge like on chain governance and POS was cutting edge in 2019 right in 2017 on believe Who work in 2019 is launched and made it as Cutting Edge. And I think Dallas bring this like the next level of this really bringing like new ideas,
a governance to new level. Yeah, I know. I mean I think that's something I think also you know we talked about mentioned this on this podcast before but that's just like stands out to me so much. Like actually I remember when you know when we work on Cosmos in 2017 I mean there was there were others right who were basically like other blockchains proof of stake blockchains there were also you know having specifically taser some polka dot righted.
Also had the kind of governance mechanisms in there and they talked a lot. About like oh you know, how they have this, like elegant powerful complex going in scheme and I feel like the cosmos it was more like, yeah, we're gonna have this governance, right. But it wasn't so much at the at the front and center and it was also kind of simple in
comparison. But you know, if he can get his ended up like I mean I think polkadot governance is just like very confusing and nothing too complicated and I was like reading at some point that they're actually moving to a more Oh, style model. I'm not totally sure if this is true or not or if I misread that, but and then Hazel's, I think the big issue is that, you know, only valid is could vote, which is not ideal. No. Like, I mean, I should, I think anyone's having to call him.
Small was really like, just very nice right? That you have like validate. This will by default but then individual token of this can override it. And what I think has been just amazing. It's like the amount of adoption that has gotten right, right. Have like on the cosmos hop. You know often like you know, eighty thousand accounts or somebody at that or you know voting and you know, same as Moses like huge participation. But then of course you're totally right, right?
Like this is just one form of governance and it makes sense for some forms but like it's there's obviously also downsides there, right? That you have okay someone who million tokens and there's someone else with 100 tokens and the person with 100 tokens maybe like super engaged, know a lot.
And so that's, you know, it's a hard problem, but at least I feel like to recall some small has already gotten gotten pretty far and works pretty well and he's gotten surprising amount of Engagement and you know, we're excited to see. I like the kind of doll down like the other models that can be built. Yeah, I think the cosmology Works quite well for most cases if there's engage Community. Like, you know, if if most token holders care about the chain,
right? And are right, you actually having each community and you have like solid market cap, like it works pretty well actually. But those are yes. So like, when you see a chain with not much usage and the market cap drops to 1 or 2 million this bear Market which has happened. It's a problem. And what happened to Tara, like, when they invented five billion lunar five trillion lunar. I don't know.
Five quadrillion. Luna, I'm not sure how many They halted voting because it is a heart attack like some random person. It just bought this for, like, point, zero, zero, zero, zero. 1 cent has now infantry governance. They could delegate their thinking taking the whole chain, right? Like, like they realized the limit of it.
And so this is I'm saying this failure modes in it right there, failure to be aware of and that is Extreme failure mode but I think any of these small chains is under 5 million, 10 million market cap and has low engagement is just basically waiting for it. And so if they were ever actually had a higher At one point them down to this level. That means someone's going to snap them up, right? So, I think it means just like the, the POS works.
Well, if you said, hey, token pose, actually, engaged and there's a solid market cap. No random Schmo. Hacker can just buy a bunch of tokens and like, take over because like you can't write, you can't fight him out because people care about stuff. But yeah, and I think it works well in the suit of like, you know, the decision about or should we go there or should we do this, right?
But what it doesn't but it doesn't really work well for is a sort of, you know, organizing work, and collaborating to do stuff. So for example, I think the whole mechanisms of like using governance to, you know, for proposals for funding proposals, I think is not work. I mean, it sort of works but it's not ideal, right?
Because I think, And you know, someone proposes, something, people are like, all right, that sounds reasonable and they defined it. But like was that the best thing to fund and like maybe something else that like or in a different way or someone else had to say my dear. And like, so I think that's for example. One thing where like the existing governance I feel is
isn't great. Yeah, I think this is cool things out as working sub dials actually can like take the sticking vote as like the basis of who is voting power. Have your own different Logic on it or like subgroups of them can vote on it. So they were like not even no tokens. Actually sticking took out the day of thing and then also allowing sub Dallas like okay these Dow is appointed by the main the main governance. Now point this Dow to do some things like voting funding with
some sort of budget, right? And they the but the apparent, Can we vote them? Hey, this committee is not working very well. Get rid of these guys, you know they just wish the money like but so you'll have to have the 80,000 people involved every funding discussion. Negotiations. You actually have negotiations with the counterparty and they can spend, you know, a million or two a month maybe on funding projects and ecosystem.
And if the money is going to bad places, you just basically swap them out with someone else, right? So like, and that might make sense in a way of more decentralized and saying, you know, Foundation, it's a trend in transparent Foundation funding stuff, right? Like, I could actually allow decentralized way of doing it. It's actually control volunteering governance but still, you're right. Like you don't need 80,000 people discussion when someone's trying to go.
She ate like a funding. I will do this feature for your chain and then like, you're like, okay, I'm waiting two months in public discussions, to figure out whether like a funny or not. I'm going somewhere else. It's a lot faster, but I think you can definitely do it. And I think, yeah, that allows you to add that onto existing governance and kind of did not replace the standard one but like extent places with this. Cool.
Well, thanks so much ease and it was really, really great to have you on, like, you mentioned called, you know, the cause and wasn't Academy. Maybe that's something some people may be interested in. Can you tell a bit more about that? Like, you know, if people want to kind of get started and developing on top of calls and was mm like where should they go? And like what's the kind of offering that caused some awesome Academy has for them? Cool. So yeah, the cosmos of Academy academy.com.
Some awesome.com is can sign up now, we'll be opening up. I believe early September, maybe mid September. Let's see how the times lines are Slip a little bit. We're going for quite a while with quite a few videos online.
The platform is already aligned, we're trying to finish up first version of it. We preview already in sales, but yeah, in a few weeks early, mid September, we have a going on sign up there, you will get Basically bottom and top Rush courses explaining how to build contracts in rust from an expert train developer at can feos working a year and a half. Now with us building, all kinds of Rush, contracts and building a costume, awesome, and multitask.
And lots of these toolings used going through how to build contract explaining Ross. Explaining contract logic, explain how to build everything up there. So if you have basic, Russ, knowledge, sign up for that class and it will take you into like Advanced custom awesome development. I think this is really a way we want to do democratized People, so really get the skills of how to build a good cause I'm awesome contracts out there and
complex columns and contract. How to compose contracts, how to build these systems out there. And when everyone is for everyone, it's free. So, yeah, it's basically us trying to train out a whole new generation of really skilled Cosmos developers. That's amazing. Cool. And how long is the course? The course of 10 weeks. It's a attend classes there. One week long. There's some take a look for you
to do with them. You probably have faster if you're skilled already, but yeah, it's a 10 Weaklings. Who fantastic? That sounds like a great experience. Yeah, yeah, no. It should be. And I definitely is for, everyone is for the people and feedbacks. Welcome, please give feedback out there. If you have stuff going to get better, we'll have other stuff on kazim. JS, + 4 n Stuff coming later as well at the questions. We have also some full-stack courses coming up a lined up for you.
I also wanted to mention Huynh Dao briefly, and so there's I mentioned earlier, it's basically a dowel we're launching, or have launched on Jun 04. For doing IBC based contract. I think it was going to be The Cutting Edge of a lot of this stuff scaling out, protocols, both vert horizontally, not vertically or horizontally. I think it's very interesting stuff.
We building out there to reach huge scales and really push Ibis. You can do and how it can make like an actual entertaining of protocols. There is an air drop out there. I want to say if you get this before end of August until August 2020, we have an airdrop airdrop dot wind down. A.com win with a why and check out more there. For all Juno Osman region stickers. Okay, I'll check that out as well. Cool. Well, thanks so much Ethan for coming on.
It was really great to have you on the podcast. It's amazing. Like all of the work you've done and we've contributed to the cosmos ecosystem and I'm super excited to see, like, you know, what do people going to build in this like you know next generation of stuff that's going to come with, you know cause and walls. Mm and mixing that with you know, to new IBC capabilities and then move all these people going to be trained to cause an awesome Academy Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm excited. I was dreaming of IBC since like, you know, five years now, six years now of like what we can do. So we're ecosystems here. Everything's ready the tools. Already infrastructure foundations. Ready and like let's just build this guy's cool. And yeah, check out cause I'm awesome. Check out chat Discord website. Everything is on their chat. That Colin was not calm for Discord. Lots of good help there. Yeah. Come on, cool.
Thanks so much Ethan and of course, will include links to all of those in the show notes and thanks so much for our listener. For once again, tuning in, if you want to support the show, make sure to leave us an iTunes review. Let us know what you think of the episode and Twitter, share it with people. You think would be fun and interesting? And yeah we look forward to being back next week. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week.
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