This is epicenter episode 446 where the guests than Finlay. Welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people with driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I am fig Rica Anton. I'm here with special. Guest co-host, Felix lunch. Today. We're speaking with Dan Finlay, who is the founder and group manager of meta mask. But before we talk with Dan about meta mask, let me tell you
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I've been a fan of epicenter for so long. I'm just delighted to be here. Hmm, then so, we go way back to Tia, you know, to my consensus days. So, tell us about yourself and how you got into the blockchain universe. Ah, well, I guess I, I'll try to keep it brief, but with a little taste of why it caught my eye, you know, like sure I got paid for in Bitcoin for a An odd job one time and I was cool, but I lost it about docks and it didn't really catch my attention.
I mean, I saw the slashdot article when it first came out, and I thought it'd be cool. I did not learn how it worked. I went to the faucet. I have no idea how much that would have been worth. I definitely don't have that anymore. And then when I was working at Apple with my friend who Mabus, he went to a meet-up and and started talking to well, a friend of his of ours, A Dominic tar. Our who is the creator of
scuttlebutt? We'd met him through the node, the node js community and he was really into decentralization. You know, he made scuttlebutt. I remember attending a workshop.
He made on making peer-to-peer chat rooms and he pointed out aetherium to come office and then come obvious one to a meet-up with metallic and then he came to me and it it sparked my imagination, you know, it was like he it was all he wanted to talk about at lunch and I was there for it and so we were just like, riffing on it. There were a few Inside to try to make in the past that this seems suited to.
So things like a debate system where you could figure out how trustworthy a claim was or a voting system where you could allocate funds or microtransactions. And like these are all things where I was like, oh, finally money and the internet. This is great. We started trying to make a thing. Of course, there was no account manager yet. So we made Metal mask, and, you know, it built in all of our
prior assumptions. And I think that a lot of the blockchain space today is kind of built out of everybody's initial. Pression of what this new alien technology is made out of and, and we, we made our best shot at it. It was good enough to make a lot of stuff and that's kind of where we are. Now. We've been iterating, and
fine-tuning and improving. And for a few years now, I think we validated it enough that you know, obviously now there's a lot of big players entering the space and you know, like well-funded think it what yesterday, Robin Hood announced. They're going to have a web three, something, you know, all that's very interesting. It's very funny for me where I feel like we've done so much wrong and we have so much to fix for tap people. Copying the current state of
things. I feel like all I see is ways to improve and and I feel like everybody's kind of still just doing impressions of web to you know, it's like we want to have kind of an account model, right? Or like and money or something and I think I think there's a lot of kind of What a lot of uncertainty about what it's supposed to look like eventually to interact with apps. And I think that we've kind of, finally figured out. How does it really work?
And we just haven't shipped them all yet, and we're like in that process. So I think we've like, you know, just earned in this wonderful wealth of experience and we've built up a really amazing team recently. We brought the my crypto team in, and you know, there, another one of the wallet teams that just has consistently seem to
just have there. Finger on the pulse of like user actual needs, you know, understanding like the gravity of the situation and how kind of carefully we need to move with changes in things. So that yeah, sorry. There it is. In a nutshell. That's pretty much how I got into it and how I got to where I am now. Yeah, awesome. That sounds cool. I guess we can go a little bit into that. Right?
As you just mentioned. You said basically weren't hired directly to build a wallet, but you kind of figured it out with within consensus. And now maybe you can tell us a little bit about how how that Journey was from building metal mask into what it is today and how maybe a bit about the team,
how it grew. Yeah. Yeah. Kumar has had started metal mask even outside of consensus and so When when he got hired at consensus, suddenly, he had the capacity to offer jobs to people and so I was like, you know, I was kind of early in my Tech Career. So I was I was a let's say not as eager to jump out and start making my first startup as he
was but I joined him. As soon as consensus was funding the project and I was really excited to and and yeah the consensus was this wonderful just kind of chaotic incubator at the early stage. There's like, I don't know. It must have been hundreds of of different experiments getting
validated and tried out there. And there was a really exciting energy, you know, surely there were a lot of projects getting built before the kind of platform was ready to really support it think I think back then it was very normal to just kind of build your application as if the blockchain was going
to scale or did scale already. So you just treat the solidity contract like it was a rails back end and keep everything on the chain and I think I think that over time people have had the The issue hammered into their heads and have a lot of different ideas about how it needs to get addressed. And yeah, that's just one of the one of the ways that we're continuing to kind of grow and evolve.
I was thinking back earlier on how I first used metal mask when it came out and kind of we've all gotten so used to living with browser extension wallets, right? So but zooming out, I kind of, I remember how dodgy it felt back then just to kind of interact with the browser extension for something that they're just so obviously value transaction. So how did you and come rviz make that decision to kind of build this as a browser extension rather than a
standalone application? Yeah, so when we first started building their, the Mist wallet browser was already kind of occupying the Standalone installer space and so they were they were also doing a full node thing. So you did install this, this in executable you'd get a browser and it would sink the blockchain and your computer would heat up. And you do, you know, wait, I think it only took like 15 to 30 minutes to sink back then. But, you know, so it was a kind
of weird experience. Every time you open your laptop kind of heat it up or whatever, and Of the kind of founding principles for metal mask was we want to make it easy to get in, right? So we're trying to like, look, how do we smooth the adoption path? What are the assumptions that we can kind of weakened? And and that are like maybe okay to compromise on for first time users at the first of which was using in fira having a hosted kind of trusted connection for the blockchain to start.
It was a very controversial take at the time and you know, there are still some people that feel very Gently that that's like, you know, fundamentally wrong and broken. And, you know, I would love to see long-term more block chains that are lightweight enough to run on consumer Hardware, but that's not even one. Each one is just kind of Impractical task users. Like especially when they're first getting started. Right.
When your first interaction with the nude app is somebody saying, hey, here's a way to sell an NFC or something. Right? If the barrier is first installed this, you know, 20 GB thing on your hard drive and then you can Look at a picture. That's that's a very hard sell and so commodious. And I were both were both web developers. We both had a real love for the
kind of permissionless. NE some of the web, the fact that you can drop a link into any text chat that you have with someone completely between any channels. It could be, you know, an SMS. It could be an email. It doesn't matter where you take this magic little link. And now, suddenly, you're in somebody else's world, like that was for us, one of our design goals. We're like, you should be able to click a link to one.
And go to it. And and yeah, it's so so that was kind of a guiding principle to start and come off as spent, you know, a first initial pass, a good portion of a first-year trying to make the whole wallet kind of light browser work entirely without an extension like working with in an iframe within the browser. Basically building a browser in the browser, which is, you know, an impressive thing to try.
And then at a certain point, it was either me or Nick Dodson was just like, hey, wouldn't it save? What if we just make tried making a web extension? And he's like, yeah. And and it like he took what he had done and, you know in like three days or something. He'd put it into extension. And then I was like, all right, let's get this ready for a hackathon because there's sxsw was coming up. And so we just got a good enough to hack on just to play with. And there's this music.
Hackathon had a whole bunch of music creators and hackers, who'd never heard of blockchain before, it was just the music hack about not a blockchain hackathon and we started Him, you know, hey, what do you think you could do if you had money in your, You music ecosystem, you know, I was, we were touring with you Joe at the time and, you know, just, you know, a lot of ideas were things like, oh, the microtransactions of what if you make a beat and then you get paid when people mix it into
beats and, you know, things like that. And you know artists no artists know what it's like to not get your work valued, adequately and and yet they also know the value of Their audience and more and more with internet with Kickstarter and you know my patreon and things like that people. Having access to your audience's powerful. And so I think it was it was a great event. And and yeah it kind of from there. It was high friction.
A lot of people were skeptical, a lot of people, you know, other hackathon hosts, there were like, you know, I'm going to still recommend a maybe build a wall into their application, you know, because it was just too weird at that time, but you know, that's, we've seen culture shift a few times and during our time here at meta mask. And yeah, why an extension wouldn't it be more stable as a desktop? Well, I mean, I totally believe that long-term more of the stuff
should be lower and lower level. You know, you want the maximum security, you want to open Hardware, you want, Hardware wallets, you want the maximum guarantees, you can get the browser really was a decision because it's it's an on-ramp. It's a first experience. It's about being able to give somebody just that link that drops them in as quickly as
possible. And and really, I think that we can do, we can do much better even than our current thing that the current Norm of making somebody get a wallet. And then Log in and select an account and get some eith all before they can like like a post or something. I think I think that that's a bad design pattern and I think that we can do better as a community for that. But yeah, yeah, that's a kind of getting ahead of myself.
Yeah, we're definitely want to like hear more about where you think that should be going, I guess, right? As you said, you kind of were part of the making these design patterns that are now they're like, sign in with your wallet. Things like that, right? In this hackathon. It seems that wasn't even a thing yet. And people didn't really know how that interaction would work. I guess. It's also segue to like metal mask is not just a browser extension, right?
There's also mathematics mobile which, which, I guess. Is has been a big Trend to get like more people on board, right? People are used to use their phone for their banking apps or wallet, or in general to use their phone. And then obviously you made the choice to also build metal mask mobile. Can you talk a little bit about we wear that, it's sad, how it is decision was made kind of how people use it today.
Yeah, I think mobiles, one of the easiest decisions in the world because, you know, you just look at the numbers. Most, everybody just about has a phone and not everybody. A computer and you're like, okay. Well, there you go. Mobile's therefore has to be the future. Now. I think there's some real advantages for the desktop, which is that in particular everything's getting programs on
a desktop. So so if you're the developer tool, then you're going to you're going to make the developers going to make sure that you're compatible with
them. So the extension has this kind of developer experience advantage and I think that there's there's kind of an uphill battle to make sure that that web three sites kind of work as As well on mobile and you know, we've got a ways to go on that developer tooling but the goal was always to basically say, you know, same promises the web, you know, you make a website and it works on desktop or mobile that shouldn't matter, you know, we're trying to build
an internet of value, you should be able to take value wherever you go, you know, just not just confined to when you're sitting at your computer. It's you know, it's a dynamic thing. You should be able to make any agreement anywhere you want. You know within your own terms, you know, maybe you don't carry around the, you know, carry around your grandmother's pearls on the when you're going out but you know, you bring some spending cash, you know, things like that. Yeah, absolutely.
Can you give us some idea how many people use. Meta Moscow, what kind of values are stored in? Meta mask? What kind of use cases it's actually used for by people. I'm pretty. I'm I don't know. Really say this. I'm pretty sure like 98% of people who listen to this podcast, have first-hand experience with meta mask, but I think kind of hearing the stats is the warranted. Yeah. So the latest number I heard is that we finally got to around 35 million monthly active users.
That's somebody who in the month, has interacted with an app. So either they connected, where they approve the transaction or signature or something, and the use cases are actually quite varied, you know. So, depending on your corner of the crypto sphere, you might be in a bubble and you might think that there's only one major use case, you know, I know that the nft community sees itself as often as like the kind of one thing that's going on the defy
communities. Definitely had a period of seeing herself as the possible main use case gaming is also, for many people. The only use that they have for meta masks were web 3 and and then there's meanwhile, there's the whole do ecosystem people, you know, figuring out how to issue grants and fundraise. Lee.
I think these are all really cool in different ways, I think they all have some common themes of kind of giving people ownership of digital rights and I do kind of think of a wallet as one of these computer, like, things that has to be dynamic. It has to fit your needs. It can't be well, I mean, don't get me wrong, it can be custom tailored to a use case.
So some some wallets, you know, maybe ones that you might have mentioned in the Tro might be giving a very good experience around something like staking for example, and for somebody who wants to get yield on staking that's great and you know, having a lots of staking options really quickly is a really reasonable Niche for a while at occupy and there are other wallets that are specialized in gaming and there's other wallets that are specialized it.
And I've teased I think partly just for historical reasons because Madame, s kind of was the first thing that just made like anything possible. We're kind of in this position where we still kind of serve everybody and So we kind of are in a position where by necessity partly and then also because it's an interesting position continue to pursue being a general-purpose wallet and and you know, frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way. I think it's a really, really
interesting problem. I've come to know the the the challenges and solutions that are available to this kind of Niche. I think they're kind of essential to Safe Computing in general. I think the problems that we're taking on as a wallet are actually pretty. Much the same problems that you have. Keeping your computer safe. The reason people get fished and hacked on the web. It's not because there's cryptocurrency is because there's cryptocurrency and people don't know how to keep
computers safe. Like, there's kind of two problems here and if cryptocurrency had evolved in an environment where people knew how to keep computer safe. I don't think we would have this problem, but I don't think that history ever pushed people to secure their computers this hard before. And I think that we're kind of seeing, okay, we've had personal computers for You know, 30 some odd years, but the truth is they're kind of badly secured,
kind of just good enough. We have to invalidate our passwords every two days, just to kind of have a chance at not getting identity thieved. And I think it's, for me. It's forced me to step back and say, hey, wait a minute, like computers themselves are kind of like alien technology. We're kind of just cargo cult around computers saying, like, what are these good for? Can we build Society on them?
You know, but I don't think we've answered Answered, fundamental questions about computers yet. I don't think people, but I think that the patterns are emerging. So things like permission systems things like having good sandboxing, think those are like the beginnings of like, oh, keeping untrusted things at arm's length. And I think that those patterns that you see, you know, Androids got a pretty good sandbox and
permissions model. Think that's very similar to what we end up being in the internet of value. And so we're kind of we're rediscovering, kind of the same principles were saying, what does it mean to have some Digital rights or responsibilities and then selectively kind of wire them together. Not just with your printer and your disk drive, but now with like the rest of the world's Computing and doing that in a coherent and Safe. Way is like, it's like the
whole, it's a very big fun. Interesting problem for for computing in general. Wow, yeah, that's that's go super David. I know you are also kind of part of this aghori community a little bit where this is this kind of related right to object base capabilities and and kind of trying to keep things secure like that on the smart contract level. I guess. I'm also wondering why Iris the wallet part in that is there are there certain areas where the wallet plays a role?
Or is it really just on the contract level that you you kind of shrink the Securities, the surface or are there like specific things on the wallet size? That can be improved in your opinion. Yeah. Yeah, I the general idea is that I'm describing about making computer systems where you can reason about how to keep them secure. Those are very those are problems that I learned.
The Agora folk had been thinking about for a long time and I think some of the richest literature on that topic is coming out of them and their community and kind of adjacent groups to them and and I've really adored my time like getting to know them and getting to collaborate with them on some projects. We've been funding them on a
grant. Due to renew them, but for their secure JavaScript, or hardened J's project, which were using to secure our supply chain and for building a portion of our extensibility system snaps and so sorry. Coming back to yeah. Yeah, sorry. So you're saying is that related to a cork? Yes. Absolutely. Agaric. I think has a lot of experience building distributed systems. They kind of tend to draw people
into there. Community, who hip similar problems saying, like, oh, I tried to build an open multiplayer world and I realized it's hard to make that safe and then they end up coming to a kind of similar consistent conclusions. And so, yeah, I think that there's some good good camaraderie there. I kind of was avoiding the, the jargon I'm practicing avoiding. Jargon as much as I can. If I say object capabilities, you might say, okay what I don't care or something, you know.
So but you know, if I say, you know, make make it understandable when you're taking risks, you know, that's basically the exact same thing. The idea of the object is that an object? Is this abstract thing. You own it, you know, it's like a token or an mft is an object. And how do you basically maximally allow a user to interact with that and do things with it?
You know, the norm on blockchains today is one person has something Saying, if you want to do something, if you want to stake it, you know, you put it in that contract, you know, there are allowances, allow it to start to resemble. Sharing capabilities. Capabilities are kind of like, extension cords, where you're like, you plug a port from one thing into another today, the norm for smart contracts.
Everything has its own ports. You know, your C20 has one allowance standard Arc. 721 has another allowed standard your see, 11:55 the the multi token standard that board Apes uses. It has another With standard. And this one is not granular at all. When you give someone permission to you to withdraw one board ape, you allow them to take all of your board apes. And this is the Crux of a whole phishing scam. This morning.
Seth Green, you know, I know this will are like a week from now, Seth Green came out and he apparently was fished and through an allowance scam just like this, you know, they were able to ask him to approve one. You know, there's there's a there's a lot of problems that kind of combine to that. There's there's a problem of some sourcing the metadata to represent. This is one of your things you
care about. This isn't just a random smart contract and then there's a problem of the granularity of the permission. Like you shouldn't, you know, issue to all of them. That should maybe just be 21. So yeah. Yeah, the the basic theory is, how do you, how do you give people good authority over the things they have and have access to? And yet give them the ability to compose them. Right? So safety and composability. We don't want to tie people's hands and say you're safe, you
know. But we want to say, you know, okay, you can do whatever you want. But like, here's here's, here's how to stay safe. Here's here's the lines around the, the dangerous bits and, you know, do what you're willing, you know, do what you want. You've touched on a multitude of different topics and there's a lot to unpack, and maybe let's start at the very beginning of setting up a wallet. So, basically, you said about what it, and then there's the seed, phrase, the 12 words are
60 words or whatever. So, I mean, we've kind of, we've gotten used to that, right. So basically, we know it's coming, but zooming out again, this seems like a terrible user experience, right? And so maybe that's that's talk about where you see the future of seat phrases. Do you see a future of seat phrases? I guess for legacy purposes, you know like you you want you might want to be able to back up some old things that are not
transferable. Although, you know, if I have my way, the ethereum blockchain will adopt some VIPs that allow you to transfer account holder ship to other accounts. And so you should be able to migrate them then to but yeah, so maybe but but I think we should be able to move off them as much as possible. I think it's It's nice that people have the option to be in total custodial control of their wallets. And even critical that people have the option of keeping things.
Totally cold, being able to send assets to something. That is unhackable. Entirely is like, it's great. It's a proof that this is a decentralized system that nobody can take her asset from you that you can be as safe as you can keep anything. And that's that's all great. The problem is, is that Okay, you get this one secret and it has all your stuff, you know, and okay.
So if you're very Advanced insecure, you might keep some on a hardware wallet, but then Hardware wallets, they innovate even slower than the software while. It's so the things that you can do the transactions, you can review their fewer and fewer and so you're trading off the usability of the system for security. And so that kind of comes back to. Okay, tying your hands and saying that you're safer. I think that we can do better than that.
Ideally, you know, you'd go to a site, you could use it a bit, do some things. And then, if there was at some point, something you cared about their, you can have the option to back it up in any number of ways that are, you know, kind of risk tolerance to you. You could say, you know, do you know, if you've got a hard drive, that's good. Fine. If you trust your disc, good, you know, if you want to use a hardware wallet.
Great, you know, if you're cool with a putting it on your mobile phone, using your mobile phone as a signer. That's more solid for most people. If you've got an old phone that you don't use, that's an upgrade also, and it's viable. And if you want to wire together a multisig, you know, for some higher Stakes things that can
make sense. And then I think that kind of the most critically missing piece that I think nobody's looking at right now just to drop a little bit of output or whatever it is. Is the allowing your different devices to be delegated. Just the permission that they need to operate. There's been a little bit of this from contract accounts like Argent who have self-assigned daily spending limits, but those self-assigned limits are still from an account that holds everything.
And so if it gets compromised, you still lose everything. I want to see a world where you could have a cold wallet, whose assets you delegate to a hardware wallet in some limited. A city, whose assets, you could then delegate to your hot wallet in some limited capacity, you know, and so you could have, you could have any number of accounts on any number of assets and you don't really think about them as accountant assets. You think of them as accounts error, sorry as assets.
And each asset, may actually have a secret key behind it, but you shouldn't have to reason about that. You should just know. I've got a bunch of stuff on this cold wallet or on his Hardware wallet and I'm setting up a new device. So what do I want that device to have, you know, do I want it to be able All to give away my board ape know then don't give it permission to simple as that, you know, that's the, that's the, like kind of object
capability thing. It's just like, Consent like no permission without consent, right? So you should be able to have cold stuff, but then you should be able to delegate limited permissions. You say. This is going to be my, I'm going to be voting on The ens do from this. I don't want to sell the tokens from this. I want to vote, so you should be able to provision just the permissions you want. So you should be able to say I want voting rights on my hot machine.
I don't. And now you're hot machine would be literally unhackable for anything other than that purpose. And if it was ever hacked, the worst thing that Could happen is some bad boats, get cast in your name and then you could revoke them from the initial granting Authority device, but that sounds like, I mean, that sounds like more private keys not fewer.
Right? So basically, by having more granular, permissions settings, you would actually have to, you know, hold and control way more private Keys than you currently. I mean, so basically there are some people with stupid amounts of money on meta masks, right? So basically, See them at conferences and they show you something. And you go like okay, seriously, this this is this is don't tell me. Yeah, so I know that ages ago at
consensus. There was this project that kind of looked at like this in-game location thing as as a seed phrase. I do you think seed phrases will ever become? More human memorable than they currently are. Or do you think we will just have to rely on backup mechanisms and Guardians and social recovery mechanisms. Where do you think it's going? Oh, I mean, kind of like I said, at one point, I think people will be able to choose the ways that are preferable to them.
So, if you want to do a brainwallet, you should be able to delegate, you know, you like, you could memorize the right to withdraw all of your funds, right? And and then if you can memorize the key that controls that, then you can back up the message that imbues that key on a public website. So everyone could see. Oh, there's a key out there that could, you know, withdrawal of your funds and send them to the Bahamas or Whatever.
And, and so I don't see any problem with people having the option of having a memorized key and okay, so do get away from seed phrases. Well, if somebody wants a seed phrase, if somebody wants to have 12 words that they back up, maybe because they have, you know, there's so many crypto steals sitting around or something. I think it's fine for that to be an option. But I think a safer Norm is that usually devices generate keys in a secure Enclave. In those keys.
Never leave that device. And so usually when you're deploying to a new device, you're deploying to keys that cannot be extracted. And so the only way to extract value from those is through signatures and operations with those keys, which while it should be rendering in a human readable way. And so, you know, if all is done correctly, it's harder to fish from wallets that are doing that because there's not just one secret. That's may be harder to reason about the to steal instead.
You have to get a user to hopefully perform an act of sent that they've they've been habituated to recognize before that you can take from them. So yeah, I guess I guess in short. I think I think devices should have their own Keys as much as possible. You should still be able to delegate a capabilities to other keys. At the end of the day. This is all built on cryptography, right? You're not going to get away from there, being private keys somewhere. I think that we can make them
less portable. I think some people will still probably choose to backup to see phrases, but those will probably be Pro users. Who you know, just know what they're doing very well. The average user is probably going to prefer to have something maybe like social recovery, or maybe maybe a custodial back up with just the, you know, limited allowance in fraud protection. Just like Banks do today, except open-ended it Turing, complete and able to connect to Smart contracts.
It's funny. So basically had we recorded this episode two years ago. And I think everyone would assume you're making the case for smart contract wallet's here, right? So, tell us about, can you talk about how the, how the thinking has shifted from Smart contract wallet, Stewie ways with enhance capabilities. Oh, I think the line is a little blurry. So so I'm talking about just the general principle, that things
should be delegated bubble. And actually so I'll share I've I've been working on a little solidity library to kind of demonstrate what I've been what I'm talking about. It's a mix in that any solidity Library can inherit from called delegate. Obol and when a, when a contract has that, it gets a generic delegation interface. And so now they can delegate any permission. And on with any restrictions to any other key. And so you can write these delegations other keys.
I think that composes well with smart contract, while it's a smart contract, while it is good if you want to get a group of signers to agree on something but then a delegation is good for if you want a One agent, which could be a group of signers to then kind of permission another agent, which could be either a key or another group of signers, but some limited Authority. So you can have a doubt that says, okay well, We need you to go shopping. So, here's a, here's an allowance.
Right? We don't need to approve the budget request, you know, can you imagine going to the grocery store and then scanning the checkout line? And then waiting for your, you know, your token holders to vote like no. No, of course not. You need permission to do things. So interact in a dynamic world. And so I think that, I think the Dow's multi cigs, all of these higher security constructs are going to, I think by necessity if they want.
To be dynamic and composable. They're going to need to embrace systems where sometimes they broaden the reach of their, you know, the broadened, the, the inclusion of control over their digital assets. I think this is just normal essential composability. And so I think it works well together. I think that more things should use. Yes, smart contract logic to assign Authority and ideally every yo, a would have access to
this stuff. And actually, one of the reasons I'm a proponent for EIP, 30 74, is it would allow every eoa to assign a smart contract to be able to act on its account. And so if you have 30 70 for every account could assign off chain delegation methods for anything, it could do. And so you could you almost you wouldn't need allowance methods on contracts anymore. And this is basically what the
delegate herbal Nixon does. You don't have to write allowance methods anymore because it provides a method for Once assigned these off chain messages that can imbue its recipient with any arbitrary power. They, it uses a smart contract, as its enforcer. So, yeah, to me, it's just another tool in the kind of, I guess it's a tool for composability. I see the smart contract. Wallet is largely a tool for adding restrictions on controlling assets.
And I think this is kind of a counterbalance we're saying, okay, we've learned how to keep things Tighter and Tighter. Now you need a multisig. Now, we need a token vote. But how do you, how do you now? How do you relax a little bit? Once you've built up, trust in your community? How do you? Yeah, authorized or Empower more people to act on your behalf? Yeah, I think that's super
interesting. I guess maybe it's a tie it back a bit to that board a story where you get permission for like transferring out all the board Apes in this scenario that you're describing. If I delegate this to another address like do I have to kind of specify which contracts exactly kind of interact with, like, how, how does that look in practice? Is there some standard needed? That is says like, you know, only these contracts. Like how how will that action look or do you always have to
give a complete control? Will I guess that's that's kind of where we're heading. Like how do you make that possible? So there are more fences basically to choose from where you want to put them. Yeah. So the the delegate herbal system by default to delegation method can imbue, so the recipient with all of your Authority on that contract, but it has this caveat system where you can add as many caveats as you want to a delegation. And those caveats can restricted
in any way you can imagine. So I was making a proof of concept for detecting fissures and Reporting Fishers. I want to make a web of trust. I want to permission as many people to detect fissures and report them as possible. Right? It's obviously a high. It's a high-value target for something like this. And so so what I realized is okay, the fishing registry is ownable, but I want to share the ability to report Fisher's not the ability to transfer the entire registry.
And so I wrote a caveat, you know, it's like three lines of solidity that says not the ownable. It's no transferring ownership, you know, none of that. Just reporting Fishers. And now I can sign delegation methods where people holding these methods note. No on change transaction needed? No gasps. I can send them this permission and now with no gas that they can sign a report and it's a meta transaction friendly
things. Someone else can support it, submit it for them or the the even crazier thing is no one can submit it. If it's something like a fishing report. You can just kind of counterfactually Gossip this message and You can look at it and they can say, oh, yeah, anyone can submit this. The same way a minor extractable value person can do they look at the message say, oh, I could call that transaction.
I would see this as a Fisher and now we can build this off chain registry, where it's all rooted in unchain, permissions of the contracts enforce it. But by looking at the contracts and building up these messages, that could be submitted to the chain, we can build up these kind of blockchain. Parallel databases that, you know, can be any size at all. The only thing that has to go Chain is when revoking your permission to someone you say. Oh actually their messages
aren't good. Anywhere that has to go to the chain because you're trying to make sure nobody trusts their message anymore. That's where the censorship resistance of the blockchain kind of plays in. How far do you think this is in the future? Well, I mean, I had I have a proof of concept of that that works now, but it doesn't scale really great.
Part of the problem is because the individual clients usually don't have a full blockchain node, but you know, I if I make a note that lets you hold those messages, now, you have to be able to validate them again, to validate them against the node. That becomes very expensive. So we either need to have like, see DNS, caching it, or we need a good client side lightweight. Sinclair like laconic, my friend. Rick Dudley is working on this kind of caching system that
builds on another client. And now your wallet would be able to cash. Just the information from the contracts that you kind of are interested in. And it only updates those. When those contracts update, you get the block header. And are you have a proof that your stuff hasn't changed. It's going to be so good for things like keeping your token. Balances up to date. Because, you know, today on every block update, every single wallet is checking your balance on.
Every token on every network of every type and then plus the ones that they want to Auto detect. So it's the super Network intensive thing. But but meanwhile, we literally the blockchain is designed for you to prove that things haven't changed. So it's this kind of embarrassing.
Caching opportunity that the hopefully Rick is going to solve really soon really need a trick because because the whole scalability of this scheme that I'm describing hinges on the people's ability to compare off chain messages to the the current state of the chain. It's funny how it kind of crosses this gossiping network network with you know, the on Shan State sir. Super interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's obviously so many really amazing ways of scaling right now and I was thrilled when I realized that this construction that I was kind of building for the sake of user consent, when I started realizing. Oh, it also has scalability properties. I was just, uh, I was so happy. It was like, and but it's funny because it maybe shouldn't have been a coincidence because granting new permissions is historically, not a thing that
requires a blockchain, right? You can right-click a JPEG you have permission to view the image, right? The blockchain is always been about losing control. It's the double spend problem. It's that when you give someone money, you have to lose access to it. So for any situation where you're growing trust, I think we can keep things off chain more. And so I think that we can builds wallet patterns and dap interaction patterns. Patterns that are actually more off chain friendly.
And I think this can mean that when users use adapt for the first time they can actually postponed needing a wallet, a lot more. And actually, my fishing adapt proof-of-concept. I'm calling it Moby mask. You can go to it at low beam ask.com like Moby Dick because because we're whales trying to take out Fisher's. It's invite only because like the whole thing is, you have to have a delegation signature, right?
But, um, but when I was making it, I was realizing, oh, you can redeem, you can get invited and you can report Without a wallet. So I started realizing I had to move the wallet connection. Further further down. I had forked a project that had the wallet connection, you know that big wall at the beginning of the DAP. It says like pick a wallet, get a wallet. Look at all the wallets in the world, scroll by them, find yours. You know that horrible experience.
What I realized is 0 we kind of recaptured that Spirit of the hyperlink like you got a link. I give you an invite link. You get there and you're going and there's literally like do you need a backup? Well, the back A cup is actually the invite link that's in your text message. So you almost don't need a backup.
So when using this system, you the only time that you need a seed phrase is if you, well, if you want to delegate to it, so you want to back it up like cold or something, you know, like obviously there's higher higher Stakes, use cases, where you would want that. But for lightweight things, you know, you can start to really ask which things. Do you actually need a backup for? Like, I bet you. There's a lot of things that
don't need a backup. There's a lot of things we're just like spreading permission saying like hey, Vote on our proposal, you know, okay, you know, that should be it should be like that should not need a while like most of the time and and then the wallet is like for the meta transaction. Relayer. It's for the pro user that the admin the person who's like, you know, revoking access to the person who's like, adjudicating disputes and stuff.
Those are the people who need to submit to the blockchain and maybe that actually ends up being a pro user thing. And then most users never even look at gasps. That's that's a hope I have. And, you know, so I'm a, I'm going to be playing with that. Or I hope people try out that delegated belief thing, which I'll be like publishing right around. The time is this is coming up. I really want to look into this. Now.
The one thing that kind of immediately comes comes to mind, is does this somehow make you vulnerable to spammers? Because basically, there is no longer cost Associated right? With kind of sending messages. Yeah, so the the nodes that could be vulnerable to scammers are spammers in the situation would be like the caching nodes. So if anyone can sign a message, then you could gossip around kind of Fake Messages. These messages are validated as chains of signatures the.
So in order to spam them you would have to have a chain of valid signatures that the node hadn't seen before. So it has kind of similar spam properties to a normal Block Chain node. Like it's validating a signature. The first thing signature validation is free, you know, like if you don't know.
At the secret but like you could kind of spam any watching node with a bunch of signatures that are fake and they're going to they're going to check if the signatures real, you know, so, you know, you can always layer some extra anti-spam stuff on top of that just rate-limiting Banning people who spams, you know, once I'm once one IP has submitted one bad signature, you know, then rate limit them increase it.
You could probably borrow like Tit for Tat with forgiveness out of BitTorrent or something like that. But yeah, I don't think it's more prone to to problems like that than other blockchain type nodes. All right, I guess. Maybe tying it back to Madam, asked a bit from from this, right? I guess how actually does this interact with a damask. I guess you're saying, we're moving this. A little bit and then the wallet comes later. Is there some scenario where then, finally, you get the sign
in and you use metal mask? Or is this like a completely separate layer almost? Yeah, I think that they interact. They have a relationship and and I think it's nice if it's like, can think of it as you can have assets on a site and if you're not moving them out of that site or going anywhere else, then you're probably fine without a wallet. And in many ways. I think the wallet is kind of this place where you take that your capabilities and you bring them to other contexts.
So the thing that's always been cool and exciting about a theorem. It's the composability like, anyone can, you know, host a server with the token? But the thing that's really crazy is like, oh every single token isn't public API and anyone can build a dowel that uses it as its voting rights or an exchange that lets you swap them like any like everything's open. Everything's permissionless. So it's that context switching. That's like the real power of web 3, the like everything is
permissionless lie. Open. And so, in this pattern what my initial impression of it is is that you could have a lot of websites, that and apps that are not Not needing a while it connection until some certain actions. It could be relaying transactions to the blockchain. It could be loading those assets into your wallet. So they're portable. It could be 0, loading them into the wall. It can also let you do other cool things. So I told you that the delegation for delegate Dottie.
It supports arbitrary, caveat. So when you delegate to someone, you can have whatever terms you want on it. Now, I made the movie Mask site every day. Every invite link just has the same terms. Just like it's revocable, you know, you can report Fisher's but I can take it back. But if you, if you made this a standard and added it to a wallet, then then in your wallet, you could go down your assets.
You can click any asset and you could say, okay, send them that allowance but and then you could like, have a list of terms, you could say just, you know, just this many tokens just for this much time. Only for these uses, you know, only on approved, you know, SEC improved investment. It's or whatever, you know, you can have whatever terms you want. You can just stack them up. And I think that the wallet is a nice place to kind of aggregate.
These many things into a coherent set of possession. So digital possession. So that now you can go to other places and you can log in now. And, and now when you're logging into sites, you've got all these like standard. Nice ways of defining your own terms, you know, normal terms on web to they say, we need these permissions. It's a rigid thing. You get, no say, you hope they have a logout timer. You hope they have to fa in this scenario when they ask for what they need.
Maybe they just need some tokens. So you can do a swap and now you can add whatever extra terms that you want. So you actually have a part you're participating in the negotiation of terms, when connecting to websites in this in this Paradigm. And so being able to load these kinds of assets of these messages into your wallet is the thing I'm excited to do. Now. I just made a proof of concept,
you know, solidity contract. Who am I to Like tell the theorem Community that's the new standard but that's not how I that's not how I run things. You know, this is part of why I'm building a snap system. The snap system for metal mask isn't extensibility system. So that new standards like this can be validated in the wallet. So I actually don't need permission from the rest of my team to try this out and to add it into the wallet. And other people could take what
I did. And they could say, oh, you messed up in these ways and they could make their own standard and they could add it into the wallet to and so, Really kind of coming back to the notion that meta masks role in the ecosystem is to enable permissionless Innovation, right? That's what a theorem is good at.
That's what computers are good at is what the web browsers good at. We're just trying to kind of get out of people's way and, you know, so I have my theories about what I think a secure safe, consensual digital interaction. Looks like, but rather than just impose them like, you know, I could say, So integration is coming every few weeks where I could say, you know, some exchanges they have listing fees. They you know, say oh, yeah your standard gets in for the right
price. Now we're taking an approach of the wallet allows anything. In we're trying to build a tool that lets people just be creative and and lets people move around with the digital assets they have, and hopefully reduce the risk and let them kind of cooperate in new creative ways. I still want to talk about the snaps in a little bit. But before that, let me kind of
tie in with what you said. So basically if you if you Frey reframe this a bit, it would actually give you a sort of fragmented identity system for yourself. Right? So basically, you can you kind of decide what to share with with with which services and smart contracts you interact with. So how How do you see the connection between meta, mask and assess Sovereign identity system? Yeah, I mean, I see it as a form of self Sovereign identity.
I guess I have some qualms with the, the identity framing of the issue. I think oftentimes identity is usually related to somebody making a claim about you like, like, oh, you're a citizen or you're not and, and claims are nice and interesting for some uses, you know, and like I'm saying, I want to be able to report Fisher's. I think, you know, claims are. What I think is really critically different about what I'm describing is that I'm not
just talking about the wallet. Holding a bunch of claims about yourself. I'm talking about the wallet holding the things that you can do and allowing you to extend those permissions to other things. So these aren't just claims that you would trust somebody to do something. Hypothetically. These are literal cryptographic messages that imbue the recipient with that ability. And so I think it's got a much higher Leverage. Implication once you connect.
So, you know, if you connect to a site and they want a token allowance, that's because they want to interact with your tokens right now and that's what makes it powerful. We should allow composability like that for anything but with user Sovereign attenuation, that users should be able to say oh but on my terms, right? And so I think it's very very
related. I think that the only difference the only difference that I really see between like a verifiable credential system and a No Cap object. Type system is whether the claim is rooted in a ability to do something. It's does. This does this signature mean? You can now just call a function and make something happen. Is there a robot that will literally redeem this signature for something? Or is it just kind of like a claim, you know, like a Clio?
Okay, we can have an internet of claims but like, okay, so people are gossiping. I guess that's nice. But I guess what I'm really in this for is I'm trying to build scalable social systems and that means oftentimes spreading access to resources, right? We're really talking about. How do we, how do we combine our resources in a more efficient way? How do we fund the best thought-out project? How do we, like, kind of path?
Find to those things? And and so for me, creating actual access to resources is just a more interesting problem. Maybe going into a little bit like from the user side. Now, you're saying the user has like a say, is that really like on the level, or is it what you're imagining on the level of B, being a web to user like just normal person going on his computer and somehow specifying these limits. Like, how do I get the idea? What should I be limiting?
It's just like, Candace, just be done by like some developers is this. Would there be some interface for you to understand this? I sure don't want it to be just developer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the whole point of this stuff, right? Is that normal people should be able to use it and, you know, of course, it makes sense to developers can do it first because we're building these
systems on computers. So if you speak the language that computers understand, you're at an advantage and I would just encourage any listener. If you think that's hard, just take a stab at it. There's a lot of, a lot of online courses. Make it a lot easier than you ever thought. You know, I wanted on some of those Mine, so, I went on scratch first. It's made for kids to learn to program. I learned on, you know, Udacity and Coursera, you know, these websites are excellent at
teaching you these things. So I don't actually think it programming is that hard but even that said, I think that, you know, rather than saying I think it should be made. So easy that people who don't program should be able to do it. I might say, I think that programming should be made so easy that anyone can do it or something in between. There's like that that line should be blurred. We're talking about computer. Forced agreements.
And we want people to be able to interact with those agreements. So the design space is wide open. There's a huge opportunity to enable people to participate in digital agreements better. It's a huge space and you know, I think the way the wallets work today and met a mask included is where hard coding the types of agreements that we can represent to a user and that's an embarrassing State of Affairs.
You know, that's why things like I mean, I really I really feel terrible about like the Seth Green. Because like, you know, yeah, it said, said approval for all on his confirmation, but I don't think it said, like the board a piak club. Like, I don't think we'd loaded their metadata. And, you know, and today that meta data curation is a manual task.
It's like a GitHub repository, but obviously what we should be doing is, you know, broadening the reach of aggregating, all that kind of information and you know, again it kind of comes down to that delegation thing. How do we spread the right to populate? Our metadata registry more broadly, right? Because We need to be able to protect people in so many use cases, you know, and we need people to be able to inform each other. We don't want them to have to trust us.
We want them to be able to like, declare what they trust, and then get as informed as possible through those sources. No. No, I think this makes total sense. I think there's, we're so early, right? So basically, if you look at the governance and security space, so basically if you don't want to trust one single person then basically, how do you how do you trust them? Hope to make the right decisions. How do you I mean, yeah, I think this is yeah, it's just the kind of problem set.
We're currently facing you you talked about snaps earlier and I would like to cover that it can you give us an intro on snaps? Yes, snaps is an extensibility system for the metal mask wallet. There are a lot of Dimensions to the wallet where we found ourselves being Gatekeepers inadvertently. We didn't try to be Gatekeepers. We just realized that everybody wants to have their Network. Everyone wants to add their token. Everyone wants to add there, you know, fraudulent, transaction
detection system. Everybody wants to add their new Block Chain, you know, their new VIP method for better data, log ins, you know, All these Dimensions where we were just finding ourselves, you know us against, you know, of a large group of very passionate and intelligent people. And we don't want to, you know, we don't want to be arguing against a large group of intelligent passionate people. That's the worst. We want to get the hell out of
their way. We want to let them just like ideally, you know, it's like I think people get held up on the open source component. A little bit of people are like, oh, yeah, you know, if you were just open source, somebody would Fork it they'd make a better wallet. Well, the truth is you for Kit. You're going to add the one feature you have in mind. You're not going to add all the
features that every user wants. And so I think that the heart of like actual like community-driven creativity is more about composability. It's all about the same way. Aetherium is all about the contracts, being able to interact with each other. I think that, you know, the wallet is kind of your personal smart contract space where you declare, what you care about. These are your, these are your assets. These are the things.
Willing to connect to and trust. And so snaps was an answer to, how do we bring in all this Innovation? How do we get out of the way and let people contribute to wallet, Evolution at their speed of their creativity, not at the speed of our review process. And so, yeah, we did a lot of research on kind of secure code confinement and there's obviously a lot of interesting things on that. It led us in particular to meet the Agora folks who are working on. Scripts confinement.
And so they actually have it's basically a JavaScript function that allows you to evaluate code in a confined context. So, you know, if you're a, if you know, JavaScript, you know, the word eval is like evil because you call it and then the the string that you passed to, it can do anything and that's terrible. And so you should never call eval. But the gork folks made this thing called a compartment where you can now call eval but it only has access to the things you give it.
And so it's this kind of local code version. Kind of what I'm talking about. When I talk about connecting to daps you, you can now run some local JavaScript and give it just the permissions that you want and so very much like the way you connect to add app and you give it some, you know, blockchain based permissions. Now we can run some local wallet extensions and give them some local wallet permissions. Like the permission to add a new token type to your, to, your
wallet, or a new account type. And so, we've got a prototype snaps for adding a variety of blockchains to met a mask. For adding contract accounts to metal mask, for adding new fishing detection. There's a password manager. One is, I was starting to prototype a new signature standard, you know, there's the IP 712. But there's a fifth ver, Trevor revision, and rather than pull
requested to metal mask. I just prototyped it in a snap, you know, it kind of opens up the space of wallet Innovation, outside of a standards process. I think standards processes are not permit. This Innovation, you know, right now there's a little bit of a movement to like. Hey, all the while it should make standards together. And don't get me wrong. There are some things where we should just do it consistently, so we can interface and
interoperate better. But, you know, it's better to me than standards is spaces where people don't need permission, you know, maybe this is just me because like I'd wanted to get into entertainment for a while, you know, and like, if you ever tried to get into entertainment, well, at least, you know, when I was doing it, it was like, oh the Hollywood, you know, like German or whatever, obviously, it's different now with podcasting and YouTube and things.
But, you know, whenever there's a situation where you have to ask permission or you have to get other, you have to convince other people just to do it. Just feels like the wrong way to me. Like I really care about building tools where people can just have ideas and run with them and you know in computers are great for that computers.
But as long as you build Those computer systems in a way that are friendly to in a gratian and that's kind of what extensibility is and I think snaps is incredible for metal mask, but I actually think long-term every application will be extensible and it won't be like you're an extension on one other thing. It'll be like these things work together. It'll be more just collaborative the way that contracts are on ethereum.
Yeah, I do think it's like a nice extension of that etherium idea of like, you know, permissionless Innovation and just taking it on this wanted level. And I also like, where you said, okay general-purpose wallet either wallets are kind of building things specific for the use case. I think that's a frustration for a lot of people that it's like, oh, when that's metal mask, like this new network that, and why is it so hard to switch Network,
I guess, snaps wood. As I understand, try to address that but on the level that, yeah. I know, everyone can add that. But now I guess my question would be Okay, we have all these people that can extend it in a way for a user. How does it actually look? Do I have to like choose which extension? I want to support from these snaps or is like there's some automated way or how does that? Actually, from the user sides
work. There's a particular pattern that I think is going to be more and more important and it's like the process of adding something to your wallet today. There's kind of a norm of Auto detecting tokens, you know, I recently heard a wallet advertisement that said it detects all of your nft s, for example, detecting all of your ft's to me scares the crap out of me, partly. Because we know that fissures will do are droplet attacks.
And so the airdrop you something that looks valuable, but when you try to And it will give you an error message. That's crafted to direct you to a phishing page things like that. Not to mention, there's forms of abuse, like, are dropping people lewd photos, you know, and, and so, I actually think that, you know, it's a lot like an email address where you don't actually want it to be public for anyone to just add anything to your wallet.
So, I think that we have to eventually adopt Norms, where people are consensually adding assets to their wallet, and I think that that addition can come from anywhere So, for example today, meta mask has VIP 747 and it's called The Watch asset. So a website can say, hey care about my token, you know, so I have a personal token called
dank dank coin, you know. Nobody has, I've given it out to like 20 people, you know, it's a joke point, but you know, I'm not going to add it to Some central registry where all metal mask users have to see it. That's that would be ridiculous in a waste of network bandwidth. But what we do have we have an Method. Where, if somebody goes to my website, they can press the add to my wallet button and then a little pop-up appears. And if and it says, do you want
to add that to your wallet? And if the user agrees, now their wallet will load. It has my eye, my face as the icon, you know, and and they can use it snaps work. Very similarly to that, when you're on a website that wants to interact with, let's say another Block Chain or another token sander that your wallet doesn't know about. They'll just say, hey to integrate to interact with this. This we recommend you have this governance module in your
wallet. And you say, okay and you know, we're going to we're going to have a couple tears of security. Obviously we're going to have like indications of who's certified it. We're going to have a very responsive kind of revocation and you know, fish are flagging system and then the user is going to have the list of permissions it needs, you know, the snap may need Network.
It may need a private key of its own, you know, some snaps may even need a private key that's dedicated to a given protocol. Like if Making another etherium sign or snap. It might need your theorem keys. And so we're going to add. We have friction on that to like make sure people are extra sure. But ultimately. Yeah, there's a there's a part of an interacting with a new entity that wants to rely on some new kind of asset where they're going to say. Hey you need this to work with us.
Once you have it though. You don't think about it anymore. So it's a little bit like micro wallet on boardings, you know, you can postpone them as late as you want. But as you use web three more and more, your wall. It will come to represent kind of the places you go and the ledgers that you care about and the assets that you track, and it'll just kind of let you use
those. And so it'll be a lightweight wallet by default, but it'll be a dynamic wallet that can become what you needed to be. Oh, I'm sure we'll see a lot of innovation on that one to be seen in terms of visibility and even reputation systems, right? So basically, yeah, I want to cover one last topic when token when David an ha ha ha. Okay. Yeah, so we've been exploring making a grants. Do you know?
We want there's a lot of things that we'd love to fund and you know, we've got a revenue model that's turning. So we we want to give some back to the community. So we are exploring how we might run, something like that. If we do it, I would, I would stress. We're not exploring distribution mechanics, that could be gamed, we would start with small groups of trusted people and we would probably take an iterative approach similar to what optimism is done, where, you know, distribution can be
continuous. And I think that more communities should embrace continuous, you know, continuous recognition of community and A judgment and I don't think things like that. Need to be a one-time event. But but, you know, we're exploring that and, you know, grants is one application. Obviously, we have lots of ideas of what tokens can be used for in the truth is they can be used
for a million different things. And I also think people should kind of get off the idea that tokens need to be a singular great thing. Right? Just because somebody makes a grand style doesn't mean they never have another thing. They want to make. I saw a whole rekey portal that. Did a review of metal mask. They were criticizing an idea. I had once about, Julia tokenizing or prioritization backlog. Just wanted to let our team kind of help weigh on our backlog.
You know, we got a big backlog but they're like, they're like, oh this is not of. Is this the most valuable thing they could do is like get off that we can have tokens about it as many things as we want and it's all good, you know, but but you know, I think the key thing is we're never going to like watch out for the scam Bots. I'm so apprehensive about People start speculating that we have a token coming because, you know, they're like, oh well now they're suddenly looking out for
somebody saying hey, there's a here, redeem your airdrop. Now, I promise you. If you ever have access to metamath tokens, it will not be because somebody replied you on Twitter telling you to follow a link. Don't follow links. I mean for crying out loud, if you're a metal mask user you might think that we'd have like a way of getting in touch with you, right? So probably just like go to the wallet as your source of
information about Metal mask. And that goes for support, as well as any any other things like that. So, if you, if you ever need support with any product, really start in that product interface, don't go search in Twitter. Don't go searching telegram. Who does no moderation search in the product start with your root of trust. What's the thing? You trust? Most on that thing? It's probably the product maker themselves go from there. So, stay safe out there.
We'll play around with tokens because we want to play around with the whole ecosystem more. But, you know, please donut, don't hinge your hopes and Is on on the prospects of flipping it or something. Yeah, I think that's, that's a great way to wrap it up with the totem. Then thank you so much for coming on. It was like super informative. It took like a way different turn that I personally expected it.
I learned a lot and I hope our listeners to and we're, we're looking forward to seeing all these new new things coming from from Adam asked and what people will build with it. Then where can people come and learn about meta mask. Well, we have a Discord Channel run by consensus, and we have a community Forum which is a, you know, you can vote on features there. You can also follow us on Twitter. We've got, you know, a fairly
active sort of thing. You can you can add us but be aware that there will be some scam reply Bots, we are working on it. But you know, if anybody claims to be giving support publicly don't listen to them. Yeah, so you can ping us on any of those would be fine. The community not metamath videos are Four. Perfect. Thank you Dan. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Well, thanks so much for having me. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode.
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