Welcome to epicenter of the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm Sebastian cuchillo and to this is episode 4 89 today. I'm speaking with Barry AKA Shaolin of Dimension dimension. Is a protocol to build application-specific Roll-Ups and they are building this as a
Cosmos app chain. I go deep into application roll ups on Cosmos with Barry in this episode, this episode is actually recorded on my podcast the interop, which is a podcast where I dive deep with Founders and builders in the cosmos and interchain ecosystem. If you want to subscribe to that, you can find it on YouTube. Just search for the interop and I record weekly episodes there.
And we're posting it here this week on epicenter because we thought this was an interesting topic that you guys would also appreciate. So, without further Ado, here's my conversation with Barry of dimension Hey Barry. How's it going? Glad to be on it. Yeah, thanks for joining me. This is been like trying to plan this for a long time and I'm glad you're finally getting it getting to around to it. And like Dimension is, it's a product and a protocol that like I've seen a lot of.
Obviously, you guys are everywhere on Twitter and, you know, sort of announcing cool Partnerships. And but haven't spent a lot of time like Diving deep into the protocol. I've done a lot of research for this. I've got it's like tons of questions and so to really get to the bottom of how to mention Works, how it scales, how it allows developers to build
scalable applications. But also I want to talk about how you know how the how the narrative around scaling is changed over the last couple years. I think, you know, people don't realize just how much that whole narrative is change and how much Roll-Ups and interoperability infrastructures is And that's the truth. So thanks for coming on and great for we have this conversation. Yeah, yeah. I know, we talked about me coming on about like, two months ago and I was like, wait for test.
Net will schedule something. Then something called through, we release tested in February. Now, it's at the end of March, and we're releasing another stage of testing its own. So we could talk about that as well, but there's so much to cover. So, like where do we start? Yeah, well, I think we can start with Yeah, a little bit about yourself and how do you, how you came to become part of this team and how you got in the crypto, right?
So, my name is Barry I'm kind of like, I'm a DJ pretty much. I've been in cryptos for a decade or now or so in the weeds out of the wheat in the pin like the community aspect in the technical aspect into business aspect, I starting to crypto in 2013, if I remember correctly mid-2013 in the Dogecoin community. Those were Good Times where it's like you're skating by kind of the law with the Silk Road back then and the Bitcoins and the Dogecoin where we were
fundraising. The Jamaican bobsledding team. If anyone recalls correctly I do I do that was one of the first epicenter episodes we really were talking about this. Yeah we're talking about dos. Go ahead funded. The Jamaican bobsled team. Oh my God. That's right. Yeah so like that's what that's what That's what brought me into crypto like back. Then when people are just tipping each other on Reddit.
That's what like the community aspect is, what brought me a lot of people in my, in my position come from the technical aspect and I studied Engineering in University and different business courses and degrees. But what really keeps me here is the community and what brought me here was Community back then. Over time I worked in different jobs, different protocols And I came with the team. The team is founded in Israel with the by a bunch of Engineers phds and business people.
They were working in the ZK space with primarily on the Stark Stark ecosystem. And then they were like, Hey, we're moving to the customers ecosystem, and they talked to me about me coming in as a leading product and for me product is awesome because I could hear like, what the community wants, where the tech is, you kind of put the pieces together. Weather. So for me I think it's a it's
been a great experience. It's been a great learning experience because there's so much to learn and every day the protocols are evolving for myself for the community, for the all of the protocols that are leading, the charge in the modular space in the role of space, everything's changing. So rapidly, all this new information and then the quick reiteration and implementation into the products, is one of those things that kind of rare in web.
But very A common in crypto is like this rapid pace of innovation and people may not see it in like the token prices. But the tech is going crazy. The tech is really expanding and as you said the roll-up architectures and the role of idea is really just kind of gone out of proportion now and like everyone's building roll-ups Yeah it's crazy.
How the narrative is changed in the last couple of years because, you know, scaling has been sort of a topic that has followed me and my crippled career. You know, I started about the same time as you and you obviously there was like the Bitcoin scaling debates, right?
And a lot of the kind of primitive arguments or The Primitives for the arguments of scaling began then and then you Theory, mm started having And it's issues with scaling and then, you know, there have been multiple conversations and sort of evolving narratives around a theorem scaling over the last like 7 years. And and now it seems like There are people have more ideas about how to scale decentralised applications, but it just still feels like there's, you know,
tons of solutions for scaling. Nobody has like a clear. There isn't like a Clear Vision for scaling. There's like multiple Visions for scaling you how, how do you perceive this narrative change over the last couple of years and you know what's been sort of the Excel or the major accelerator for where we're at now, in terms of scaling, So, it's an interesting point because customers also scales,
right? You have etherium, which is the idea of ethereum is like this world computer, where everyone does the financial transactions and on financial transactions and there's like this decentralized world computer, whereas Kosmos comes in a few years later after you theorems launch and they say, hey, we could have these Sovereign
interoperable communities. None of it doesn't have to just be one chain and I thought that was Really cool like you have these interoperable change versus this one computer where everyone is kind of fighting for Block space and that was the issue with your theory was like you have like Arbitron come along at like more recently at least and optimism and they're doing these Roll-Ups quote-unquote where there are
processing. These transactions off chain and putting the data and and state on train but it's kind of different than the cosmos idea. Which was you can have these Sovereign communities in these applications. And then interact with each other more a singly or more like cross chain and this is where it kind of Dimension comes in is that they look at Arbitron and optimism scaling the idea of one block chain the main blocking of a theory minute.
Whereas dementia comes in and says hey Cosmos is amazing idea. It's really incredible. Interoperability the tech that they built out the tender moment and IBC from the cosmos. Has been built out and it's been standardized and formalized and we could expand on that, by doing these Roll-Ups on top of
the cosmos. So, instead of scaling one chain, we're trying to scale a network of chains, so people can deploy rather than using a validator set up of 50 validators or 100 validators, you can use one or two or three nodes, but you're tapping into the decentralization of the quote-unquote base layer, which is the dimension chain, which is
a cosmos chain. And you're, you're inheriting this like security or inheriting this decentralisation, you're inheriting, the stake that exist on or the bond is a bond of capital that exists on the on the cosmos change themselves. So the idea is pretty much it's Roll-Ups, but instead of scaling one network, we're trying to scale network of Networks. Yeah, I think for me, I think the first time I heard of this idea of app chains was in Cancun.
Sunny was giving like a talk to a small group of people in a hotel in one of the rooms at this hotel and presenting his vision for app chains and it like it kind of clicked for me at that moment. And that's when I think I really got on board the Hop chené Vision or have to chain thesis and and started. Added looking at like these kind of sharding solutions that etherium are these.
Um, Community was discussing at the time as not long-term viable at least not the right kind of design choice. And what's interesting is how, you know, I think one of the prevailing narratives now is the kind of like Sovereign roll ups or Sovereign zones or you know, even obtain light things even in the evm world and how things have kind of come back around to that. Construction Earth at that design pattern. How does Dimension borrow from
that design pattern? Yeah, so they mention in a way can be seen as, like, a super modulized and broken apart. If they're IAM, we have these execution charts which are the Roll-Ups, then you have a settlement layer in between, which is the, you know, theorem a net smart contracts. Then you have these data layers which are could be like data, availability, committees or Nothing any theorem for Dimension and how it integrates into Cosmos and how it scales.
The cosmos is that you have these execution charts, which are the Roll-Ups, and therefore the user, it's just like, interacting with the cosmos blockchain. You have the minting. You have the banking, you have the staking, or a different forms of staking. And there's some adjustments to the customer says decayed that we make for the as like the rdk, the role of development kit.
And then you have the sediment layer in between, which is the dimension Hub and it's Ausmus Block Chain, that connects all the pieces together, and then you have these da layers and like a primary one would be like a Celestial, which people are very familiar with now. And it's going to be the most scalable da because they're using like client sampling. And these really cool mechanisms but in Dimensions eyes any Cosmos chain can be a blockchain.
It can be a DA layer. So all they have to do is be able to accept that data done from a rollup, just post the data to that block chain and the state route to the I mentioned help and then it kind of connects all the pieces with IBC. So in a way you can consider it like a super module lies and broken apart if cerium. But also it's also scaling the network of blockchains of Cosmo
solo. As you said, the idea is kind of mesh together and you start getting these fuzzy barriers that you see like Sovereign blockchains on etherea. You see smart contracts on Kosmos but in truth the the ecosystems kind of mesh together. Eventually I think they will enter upper interoperate with each other when like there's like Starks like clients and IBC
working back and forth. Hmm. Yeah before we get into Dimension there's there's one thing I want to talk about and sort of ask you about and so when we're talking about Roll-Ups you know when we there's there's all sorts of terms of those thrown around, like there's The Sovereign roll up.
There's execution Roll-Ups, we were talking earlier before the show but validity M's. Oh yeah, yeah, I still have a hard time, wrapping my head around, how these things are different, in terms of their sovereignty, in terms of the, the developer experience. But also the use cases, for which each of these and maybe other, you know, like Celestia Amanda. Yeah. How each of these and then also, you know, thinking about that in the context of app chains and smart contracts.
How do how do you see the differences between these different things? And From server configurations and how should developers reason about which Jews when building an application? Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's one of the most unfortunate things about blockchain is that all of the definitions are fragmented. So you have people on the etherium saying, like a rollup has to be has to use the same L1, or blockchain for posting transaction data for posting State updates.
And all has to be contained to get like full security from that chain. That's arguable. That's understandable as well. You can also say that a rollup just processes transaction off chain and post it on chain, and then that's also a rollup. But in essence, what, what? Roll-Ups versus Sovereign rule those verses and try and rollers forces will idioms. It really just depends on where the X off chain execution, client post, the data and, and the state. So, for example, on it cerium,
it's considered a rollup. If it uses ethereum a net, full economic and fold, decentralized security, to post transaction data, and State updates for a sovereign rule. Look, there's like these new these new phenomenons that are arising from like using these specialized block change called da layers or what's commonly known as Celestia as one of the protocols building this and it just it post the data on chain and then it handles the state. And settlement kind of on their
own layer on there. But so it's, you can argue either way. I think it's much easier to say, like, what's an L2 and what's an L1 versus, what's a roll of verses and what's not a rollup. So, Sovereign Roll-Ups pretty much RL once that post data to select you and etherium Roll-Ups, don't are l2s because they the smart contract on the etherium manages, what is the proper Fork? What is the The the correct State and what is the correct
chain? So for 40 Laps on Dimension, like that's the that this definition of like. What's the correct chain is defined on the dimension hub for Sovereign Roll-Ups and Celestia that definition of like, what's the correct chain is defined on the roller player and not on Celestial for etherium that that's defined on the smart
contract? Even though there's a lot of debate in the Athenian world that I tried did not get into to but because a lot of people talk about semantics but practically for the for the developer security matters, a lot but it's kind of like choosing the toolset from the cosmos with Dimension included or choosing the toolset from etherium with
like the Opie stack. So I think those are kind of like the Divergent paths right now which is the cosmos SDK versus the Opie stack which is getting much more popular. But in terms of like what, It's Sovereign was not, that's kind of people could argue semantics all the whole time and whatnot. But the most important thing is like bringing users and bring applications and bring a developer's.
Yeah, I think that what I'm, you know, one of the things that strikes me here is that, you know, we're looking for years, we've talking about like how to scale blockchains how to skate, like how do we scale blockchains? But it almost feels like the wrong target, you know, we don't need to scale blockchains. We need to scale, decentralized, censorship, resistant applications.
And the way we end up with applications that That inherent the properties of blockchains and that their sensors are persistent. They're secure, they're immutable, right? Like all the things that sort of came from Bitcoin. The way we scale those applications is by having infrastructure that allows them to retain those properties while.
But while the usable right, and it doesn't really matter what underlying infrastructure there is, and you might want to, you might reason about okay, which which are the trade-offs that your application is going to make on this? Kind of like watching trilemma for each of those layers, but you can sort of, you know, you can, you can decouple. And that's where the modular Block Chain thesis trying to do, right? You decouple each of those layers, such that application. Retains.
Those properties, even though there isn't like a one thing underneath it, that is fully decentralized and then and we haven't gotten into yet like, you know, decentralizing other parts of the infrastructure like the RBC like, you know, the
Wallet and this sort of thing. But, but ultimately I think that's like a good way to look at where things are going is that we need to keep our eye on the prize, which is the user, what the user interacts with needs to retain the properties of a blockchain, the infrastructure itself. You know, we can we can break that up in a million pieces and probably will write. If we look at how technology and like internet technology has evolved over the last 30 years,
that's exactly what happened. And this is probably what it also is. This also Happening Here I think decentralization is a scope business Spectrum. So there is Bitcoin on one end where you can run your full node
from Genesis and be sure. Like, you're on the proper chain, then there's chains like it cerium where you're kind of either delegating tokens to a protocol that lives on the protocol which lives on the term, a net, like light or rockapulco and you're not really running your notary or you're running your note from snapshots like from a particular state. And that's kind of the same thing with Cosmos change where most people are running their full node to interact with the
system. So you got, you know, you have to choose as a developer more so than a user because the user doesn't really know which chain as like a regular user, as a regular user, they don't know, like which changes decentralized which chain is it? Like, they're not really comparing the centralization aspects of our optimism or Arbitron men, you know, we give it, we let that for the experts.
But for the user like they just want to make sure that they're secure that they're not going to lose funds that they're not going to lose funds by like some weird creature attacks or attacks in general. But decentralization is expect from for both for developers to understand and core blockchain developers as well. So depth developers and blockchain developers like Bitcoin.
Is one of the and probably is the most decentralized protocol just because you can run a full node from Genesis and know that you're on the right train. Yeah. I mean I'd love to talk more about, you know, this kind of high level Vision stuff and this is the stuff I find often the
most interesting. There's there's one last thing I want to talk to you about before we get into Dimension and talking with more technical things is I mentioned at the top that you you don't think that interchange security should scale to more than five chains. So of course you're referring to Cosmos interchange security. Why don't you think that interests you? Purity should scale to more than five chains. Interesting, security puts more
effort on the validators. So if I'm Bo validator and I want to secure or Adam wants to secure, for example, 10 chains, 50 chains. Then in its current version, I'm not saying the future versions because the future versions. Kind of partition the the work that each validator needs to do, but in this current version, I don't think it could scale more
than like five. It's just because you start centralizing, the applications that you want to make sure you're not hurting the actual, the atoms value as you're getting more and more chains. So you don't want to start deploying a bunch of chains, kind of kind of shit coins that devalue the Adams efforts because each validator is staking their that same atom, and that same amount of capital
for each individual chain. So as You grow the amount of chains, the likelihood for those chains to compensate for that effort is probably negligible where there's like a negative
expected value. As you increase the amount of chains but there are chains that I think should be secure from day, one like USD, see a generic acid acid, issuance chain, a liquid state, and derivative chain things that really flow in The Interchange. So you don't want to, you don't want those to be economically attacked. But those chains that like, There's no reason for them to be secured by 5950. They wish three billion dollars in market cap but you know, that's kind of my opinion.
I think it makes sense especially for validators after speaking with a lot of validators. Like they don't want to secure every chain or they don't want to run the binaries of every chain, just because that team decided to participate. They want to do things that are both economic economically, beneficial for themselves. And by products, the atom token as well.
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean I'm I think you're like, I think that obviously things like noble some like a liquid, staking solution things that are kind of core to the cosmos Hub and more. Broadly, the cosmos ecosystem and I think it makes sense. Also, those are the things I think that for validators can make money. But, you know, I don't see a point for like having a Chihuahua chain or something. Similar to that or, you know,
some like kind of user. I think I think that interchange security should be reserved for, Infrastructure or defy Primitives primarily, you know, for Adam, right? Because I think other chains are considering you interchange security as their own chain as well. So like if you're watching wanted to secure other chihuahuas or other, your key chains that that makes sense. But for Adam because Adam is like a special chain, is the
first chain in the cosmos. So I think it should secure as like as Corps of entertaining protocols, as there are Yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's let's talk about the mention. We've gone on long enough here. Yeah. So can you describe the different components of, of Dimension and you looking at each layer? So, you know, we have like roll apps. There's the dimensions and you talked about this a little bit earlier, but let's break each layer down and how they interact with each other.
Yeah. So they mention I consider and it's kind of like a subjective consideration and point of view even though I'm not They're of the train. One of the builders I believe Dimension is the layer 2 of the cosmos and it's the layer of to of modular block chains. And the layer, one of Cosmos are the monolithic app drinks.
Now Dimension club with is a cosmos blockchain that is similar to other customers blockchains like osmosis Juno and others that they're different Implement implementation but it at its core is attendants Cosmos, SDK train or comment FB t, v of T. Sorry. It's connected via ABC to other customers chains.
And then what happens is on this Dimension layer to our, these modular block games, the modular block chains and why it, why are they modular block things are not monolithic block Chains, It's because they handle execution or transaction processing off chain. You get very low latency and then they post the data on chain and the state routes on train. So someone could easily verify a like this data. Doesn't match the state route. I downloaded it.
So like what's going on? So they can submit what is called a false proof or far, proof or invalidity proof whatever you want to call it. So that's the point of Dimension is that they mentioned the all the Roll-Ups are modular Block Chain. So it's a ecosystem of layer to block chains in the kind of IBC world that those roll apps. For example, they're not using the cosmos SDK and 10 different of what a cosmos blockchain actually does or uses.
They use what is called the roll-up development kit or the rdk for short and replaces, or changes, a few of the modules of the Confluence SDK for not having validators.
Instead of they have a sequencer, so it's kind of like this block producer that post the data off chain and then they use diamonds, which is a fork of Ten tournament on 10 different optimization, which was initially a year ago, forked From that protocol, that protocol Optimum is built by dyslexia team for building Sovereign Roll-Ups.
But instead of that, we decided to remove that aspect of sovereignty on the, on the roller player and it post the data to a dealer like Celestia and it post the state to Dimension. So in shrines Dimension, as a settlement layer. Now once this provide, why not use a stubborn roll up instead of a rollup?
Is because the, the speed, you get a significant speed increases when you're using enshrined sediment layer versus a sovereign, roll up. So, Sovereign Roll-Ups, they gossip the blocks to each other per block per block. So like there's a sequencer opposed to a DA layer and then all the nodes in the network communicate with one another and like they see if like the updated state is the correct one. It's like one block, one block, one block, you can imagine it's much slower than what it
Roll-Ups doing. What Roll-Ups do is that there's a sequencer that batches all these mini blocks together. So you get very low latency of like right now, we're running a test out of 0.1. Second finale, SL finality on the roll up and it both the batch of blocks to the DA layer and the post the state routes to the set of a layer.
And a set of new layer has a period of x amount of blocks to say, hey, someone can submit a fraud proof or a dispute and say, hey, like this block producer Xbox ago, said it was that the state was supposed to be wide, but it's really X. So, the dimension help is the arbitrary or between the ecosystem. And this is like the difference between several types and what are roll ups which is kind of
like enshrinement of the sediment layer. okay, so I've got a couple questions here about a basically, like why you're building this. So what I was reading. So I read through the white paper and it sounds like this roll-up development kit. This rdk is a fork of the cosmos SDK or which has new modules that enable Roll-Ups to be deployed. I guess you're in terms of efficiency, and You a leveraging existing infrastructure. What makes it? Maybe I'm missing something
here. You like maybe this is a stupid question, but why why not just build those modules into the cosmos SDK? And allow basically any existing cost was to seek a chain to support role apps so that you could have like Roll-Ups on the cosmos chain and you'll benefit from its security or Roll-Ups on on osmosis and benefit from it security. Why why build an entirely new
infrastructure to do this? When we already have things that are A highly secured that can provide data availability and settlement just, you know, building those modules into those chains. Or is there some is that possible or like my totally missing something here? I think it's possible. But what dimension provides is the ability to arbitrate and to prove a different environments.
That is the correct environment. So for example, if you have a roll up onto injective If I'm not mistaken and it's a salon of roll up and injective is a was mm, then the objective has to be able to understand the what's going on in the state machine logic and everything. What's going on the roll up? So what we say like, yeah, change, don't need to go crazy and start beefing up their there that minimalistic app chains and become sediment layers and da layers because it's quite a
complicated process. For actually Lee understanding different execution environments to actually handle the proofs to verify the proofs of either, ZK, proofs or Bolivia or proofs. So it Dimension does. It's two things. One, it says the cosmos chains. They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is be able to accept data and then the roll-up can post the data to that Cosmos blockchain.
So the demand for the token and the demand From the Block space of the car, Was Block Chain increases. So, it inherits a part of the security from the da layer. And that's because all the transaction data doesn't go to Dimension. It goes to the DA layer and that's either osmosis osmosis Roll-Ups F. Most for Emily. Evm. Roll-Ups Celestia for generalized. Roll up that don't want to pick a specific app chain because that's kind of like the core is dimensioned.
People say it's Roll-Ups, it's really. More similar to the lithium's in the sense that the role of sequencer decides. Hey, which change. I posted data which block space is gonna which block space. And am I going to pay for? So the, for the actions that already exist, they don't have to change much, you don't have to change anything for a lot of them, but for why is dimension build in the middle? Is because it handles those
different virtual environments. Those different execution environments that handles the proofs The ZK proves, the optimistic, proofs, and that's the purpose, and then it becomes a bridging Hub between all of it. But the ropes themselves, they still inherit a lot of the security from whichever person respective da layer that they choose. Okay, I think that makes sense. So, just to recap here at the top, we're going to have Roll-Ups and we'll get into the different types.
But here you can, you can currently there is, there's an evm environment. There's a Kazim awesome environment. So people can deploy contracts there, they can deploy apps as evm or or cause a Moslem, the dimension chain, which is a cosmos sha. And that has a valid or set what it does. Is it is able to understand proofs from each of those environments and potentially other environments in the future. You want to build like Salon a
VM or you want to build. I don't know, like, whatever your goal, any deity of any VM on top of that. It's agnostic. And then it's agnostic. And then, Data availability, the, that, that will post. So that's basically the settlement layer and then it'll post to data to data, availability chains.
Like Celestia could be one of us generalize data availability, but it could also post to the cosmos Hub to have most to any to. It doesn't need any specific permission from osmosis to like post data to us. Moses, anybody that that chain can post it there, the disposal change for each option. They will need to either include a module. Or a smart contract that accepts the data because they're captions at the cord. It's like Bitcoin wise Bitcoin, a dealer.
Now because they accept like in the script or whatever it is, autumn turn the bill. Yeah, they have the ability to post arbitrary, bytes of data and that's the same thing for
any chain. So any change could be a delayer and what happens is dimension, Hub, Bridges, all the, all the Roll-Ups to the IBC world and why I mean, why couldn't like Cosmo Sabor Moses or any other chain, just integrate, whatever module like whatever logic that Dimension to HUB, has to understand, you know, these like to understand the proofs from from from higher layer Roll-Ups. What is preventing say osmosis and when we like what there is there, an would there not be an
incentive for osmosis to also or the cosmos have to also integrate that logic in order to support an ecosystem of overlaps? Yes, we just haven't been finished building so they have to wait. But the truth is it's open source ecosystem and at the end of the day as I know very well that a lot of it is community.
So if the customers Hub decides to take a module and if I was most has to take some module and we take a module from us Moses, it's open source Community. The tech is a small part of it. It's not a small part, you know, it is the corner. It's the foundational part, but anyone could take open source code. We have very open licenses. We open source, everything. We've been building in open from day one. Pretty much.
We don't closers anything people could take our modules and then the day you can't take intellectual abilities and like focus, our Focus. The team's focus on this particular core Mission from day one. We've been really focused on so we understand the ins and outs and things that people don't talk about in the public, we understand and things that people do talk about in the public. So I think they, you know, you can take modules. That's pretty easy.
It's almost as easy as copy and paste but there's much more core things to building a blockchain protocol. Then take a module Yeah. And what is the, I mean, does the dimension chain? Have any particular interest in posting data to the hub or Celestia, or osmosis, or is that a function of the application at what it's doing and what it's interacting with? Or although State ability or sort of I didn't, you know, an equal level or like offering
similar security. So, the mentioned chain is a tender moment chain, it doesn't post data anywhere. It's like it's their own validators, but the Roll-Ups do Post two different chains, right? So there's the dementia cup, which is a tender meat chain and it's like osmosis, you know, you don't, it's not a rollup of anything that mentioned Hub. Is not a rollup, Dimension Hub, is the chain. It Has the, this is why it's IBC
connected from day one. This is why people could go to test net and interact with a rollup and also interact with IBC. Because all of the IBC goes through the dimension Hub, which is tender Mentor, comment B, of T soon, okay? That's like a core aspect. A lot of people don't get people think of, like, dimensions of roll up on Celestial or people. It's a different, whatever, it's not. It's a seven-layer to settlement
chain. The The Da gnostic Is where the Roll-Ups can post to whichever obviously connected that chain that is connected to mention. I hope that's okay. So roll up, I roll up. I mean in choosing and like say you've got a rollup, why like what goes into choosing which chain, they would post their proofs to so where they would post their data to write because they're posting their data systemic. Yeah. So they're posting the Data first has to be approved by
Dimension Hub, governance. The dimension that has to, they have to say hello. Like this da is secure enough, like we believe that is decentralized. It's like, it's a community thing. So, the first one that will be, of course, use this Celeste, you the less yet has been proven to really be experts in this field. They've been proven to show how they could scale the da parts and they're very, it's very easily verifiable where the data is especially when you're talking about.
The Mist cross chain communication. So like that's a core protocol that's going to be a part of Dimension but we could also say, hey like eventually F. Most wants to have some da as well to fill up their block space. So then Dimension up, get approved MOS and now roll ups have two options. They could post data to F most, or they can post data to Celestia now. Which one are they going to choose one of the core decision processes is which one is cheaper? That's because Does the
sequencer is that run? The Roll-Ups actually paid for transaction B and which one's going to be cheaper is like it's a market or eventually will be a market. And that's probably like, which one's the most scalable. Interesting. Okay, yeah, so so it comes down to then yeah, the availability of block space and and, and the cost of storing that data and and posting that data to to change in terms of interoperability. So, you mentioned that the dimension chain is IBC
compatible. Do the chains do the roll apps themselves, interact directly with other IBC apps. Etc, or does it have to go through Dimension? How does interoperability work? Broadly, so they mention Hub, has a diamond select client, which is the light client of the roll-up and the role of sends that message, the sequencer sends a message, to the dimension Hub, the IBC and the damage and home looks internally. And says, hey did this dispute period end?
Is there a fraudulent State and by looking internally, they could then allow Ow people to bridge out. So IVC goes through the dimension Hub, because the dimension Hub looks at the internal State and says, okay, like this roll-up is good to go. This role of something happens.
We're not allowed bridging, you know, depends on what the internal state is and then by being IBC connected and you can use like pack a middle where you can get these one hop IP c-- transactions or one IPC transaction from evm chain, or a customized training to a Rolo. Interesting. But in your white paper there is this IRC this this inner chain roll up communication. How is that different from IBC? So, IRC is pretty much not different than IBC.
There is no difference between IBC, uses the IBC protocol. It just adds a client type to the IBC protocol IRC was formulated a year. Ago. But now that we've kind of ossified are beginning to ossify, what is the IBC protocol for Roll-Ups? Then it's just we've made some adjustments where we could one of the core aspects in our decision and design process is to be as compatible with the community as it as it is of being as compatible with the cosmos SDK being as compatible
with IBC. Those are two critical things that we want to keep and we were able to keep I beseech. See as it is. So eventually you could use interchange accounts if the interchange queries, all the applications that are built on, top of IBC will be able to be used in Roll-Ups as well. Okay, that's very cool. So talk about the, what other the the what's the role of sequencers? Where do they sit in all of this? And how are they incentivize to
act honestly? So the sequencers post Capital to the dimension Hub and this could be in the form of dime token, which is the dimension protocol token Superfluous taking from osmosis which uses the LP of dime and the The role of token or the role of token itself when approved by governance. So the sequencer publisher post Capital on the dimension hope and then they get this block production time. They get allocated x amount of
blocks. So if there's a Marketplace or if there's a permissionless sequencing, then whoever post more Capital than they get more block production time, similar to like a delegated proof of stake. They those guys they get a portion of the revenue from
operating this This roll-up. So they post the data, they pay for publishing the data, they post the state, they pay a little bit for updating the state but then they get all the revenue and it could be in terms of minting and could be in terms of transaction fees, it can be in terms of Meb. However, the protocol decides to capture this, a lot of the rewards can go to the sequencer to pay for the operating cost.
So it's kind of like It's similar to block producer on the on the, on the blockchain and regular blockchain, but instead of everyone downloaded their own data, the sequencer is trusted for that period. And then they post the data on chain and then someone else could come and download that data and say, hey that was incorrect, and I can prove it to the dimension, hope. And by this, you have this one of n trusted sumption, instead of like a 2/3.
Trust in some Ocean and say like if the sequencer is doing something invalid, if they post like a invalid State transition, then someone, we just need one actor to prove that they're actually posting something that doesn't make sense. Okay. So it's an optimism is an optimistic. Roll-up can consider design to an extent. We use the k for parts of the protocol, but because ZK has inherent Layton sees and just
the tech. Isn't there to fully integrate into showing the correctness of State updates. Then we are focused on doing optimistic Roll-Ups and integrating ZK and less stateful things. Okay, can you expand on that a little bit? Yeah so one of the aspects is so there's two aspects. One is a sequencer with holding a text, which it's a bit in the weeds where I'd like to see even though the DEA raids.
Yeah, that that so ID a sampling and what people are are aware of is that how do you avoid data with holding a text by block producers on the unlike the data? Ability chain or the L1 chains, for L1 change, for regular, like etherium all of the validators, download the data and they check the end result for DA's change. The light clients sample, the block producer, because the what happens on, like Celestia, for example is the, the consensus network is very light that a
sequencer. So on post the data. But there's only like a commit to the data on the consensus Network and all the data it goes to the DA Network. The DNA idea that were Well, sampling goes on to probabilistically determined like the sequencer there. The Black producer on the on the consensus network of Celestia isn't hiding any data or like that commits and contains all the data. But that doesn't prevent a sequencer from acting maliciously.
So sequencer is not the same as on as operating on different layers than the celestial Network. So sequencer could gossip blocks to their peers, which it may not be the same block to their to the DA layer. Or vice versa, whatever it is. So we have to make sure that the sequencers that are operating on Dimension that when they post data to a chain that they have to prove to the dimension chain. That all the data that was posted was actually posted by
them. So we could kind of ZK, proofs ZK, proof that they were actually posting the data. We, there's another way to if you have a proper proof. Stead of rerunning the whole state machine, like someone comes and the dimension table instead of actually virtualizing the machine. And then re running the whole states against the logic in the context, you can do a ZK proof of the front proof which kind of shows. Hey, like this input is not the correct output of what the
sequencer did. And these are also things that we're just only researching, but at The end of the day, the ZK protocol or the CK aspects of Dimension will be there and will be integrated. There will be an aspects that don't require low latency. So for example, the Rolex required low-latency one of the, one of the main selling points of roll-up is to have very low user experience latency 0.2 seconds, you can go lower and it's configurable.
So that's because it's a, it's a mixture of optimistic design. For publishing data and also the batching the matching process of quick blocks. But when you have ZK B, the latency becomes much slower or a much larger. Even if you increase like the approver requirements or decrease the program requirements. So for us, we integrate, ZK and aspects that don't need necessarily to be low latent or very fast.
Okay, so when you when you're dealing with aspects that that don't require low latency, you can leverage DK. But in another aspects you're leveraging this optimistic design that has much higher latency or much lower link. Yeah. Right much lower. And at the end of day, it's a sediment layer so it will be able to take in ZK proofs of roll. Oops that are run by by provers sequencers that are actually running on the executing the ZK logic.
But that's not, that's not scalable or the tech, isn't there for everyone to just run the ZK approver and to have this kind of a system, it's much much much more scalable in the near future and the the midterm future as well as to have all these Roll-Ups to have just regular dodes operating the sequencers. Instead of These provers. So indicate any event of a dispute? What's the resolution time that's expected? Or is our, is that variable, depending on like the type of
application? You mean like the dispute period? Yeah. Yeah, that's so it's configurable in the dimension Hub right now, for in Shrine settlement, for contracts and insurance met sediment layers. Optimization Arbitron we're using seven days. We can use that. It's not unlike an empirical study to show that you need seven days to actually secure an optimistic chain. It's more about the crypto economic incentives and
disincentives that exists. So we one of the things that we do is we were building a protocol called VIP see, which is just like an application layer on top of IBC where a relayer would confirm a transaction prior to the dispute period. So they would help in bridging out. So for example, if I'm a user on roll up X and I want to bridge our tokens, but I don't want to wait the seven days. Then I just do the fast withdrawal and someone else. Yeah.
Takes that transaction to risk. Yeah and once they take the risk they're assumed to also be verifying the chain. So that's kind of like that fast withdrawal. Market-maker stuff that we've integrated in a trust minimized way within IBC. Okay, that's cool. Is it can, can can do mention also settle to etherium data availability? Or is it is something prohibiting that from? It is like, yeah, how does that
work? So, for you cerium main notes to be communicating with Dimension. There needs to be like clients, that understand the etherium may not tender moments, not the problem sentiment has already like Clients. But because of the constraints of what is the consensus network of the etherium is kind of like their issue. But once they kind of figured that out and maybe you kind of take, maybe, greater economic risks or less economic security
with. I can layer of with people at like different nodes, only like a selection of nodes using or giving like the lividity or giving the attestation, then you can for example potential use. Those that are built on top of a theorem, but to use the whole theorem security for da, you would need to really have kind of like snark, the consensus of the etherium protocol and then put it into like client. The, and this is the same issue that a theorem runs into for
interacting with IBC, right? I mean, it's, it's the same thing sense this. Yeah, because damage senses isn't fine, and finality is an instant. And so therefore, there is a delay between In the moment that say, like a rollup would post data on chain, etherium, would take some time to catch up. Yeah, I don't think I've finality is definitely one aspect.
I think there's other aspects in terms of the way that the consensus network of medium is structured because I know if Syria IBC is connected now with composable and they from my understanding polka dot also has kind of maybe not a probabilistic finality, but maybe they do. So I don't think finality is the only or probabilistic consensus is the only problem with connecting with IBC but I'm not in the weeds of net. Yeah, that's the dream, right?
It's the dream that the theory. I'm and, and IVC, just work hand in hand. Without any middle men or middleware or anything like that. It's the dream so we could get more liquidity off of it cerium, I think. Yeah, the more liquidity on die, be seen, Carter called a better for the whole block chain world, but right now it's just siloed, the, on the polygons, on the theorems of the world, which in my opinion are Worth tech product products and worse economic products than what
Cosmos allows you to build. So, speaking of building, I want to, I want to go back to the developer a little bit, so there is, there's the there's different ways of building a role app. So we've got the evm rolap. Thus the kazim, awesome roll up with the also have this rdk which is this role app, development kit. It is from what I understand. It's kind of like the cosmos SDK and that it has a module that allows you to build a, you know,
custom block. Chain is the idea here to just kind of like build Cosmos, SDK chains on top of on top of Dimension. And, you know why? Why have evm and kazem Waseem specific modules? When You know, I we already have kazim wazza modules for the cosmos SDK that could also sit within this rdk and we also have ether mint, which could sit within. So, it's because it feels like these are three separate products there. One product, are they just different? There's okay, it's just one
product. Okay? Yeah. So the rdk is a custom us SDK Fork, where you integrate in ether. Mentor wasn't so it's the same stuff, like where we don't rebuild anything. We changed the second module, we change this taking module because what happens is the second module is tied with tender mints validated changes, whereas the sequencer is different for.
And when we replace Diamond attendants with diamonds, we have to change some of the Integrations, or the coupling between the business logic of a, of a, a train. And the, unlike the networking logic or the like the rdk is a PCI compatible. But we change some of the things. One of the things that we change is say we we have validators and Cosmos and there's a coupling between governance and computation. So a validator also validates the network.
So they make sure that all the blocks that are being proposed are aligned with the state logic. So they are all on the same chain but they also participate pretty much the fact though, as as governors of the chain. So people delegate tokens and they don't really the delegator is don't pay attention. We separate this into two parts, under on the rdk. The compute is handled by the sequencers but because the sequencers can be centralized.
What would the idea of the are decaying one of the idea of Dimension 4 for people who are watching is that hey we want people to build Cosmos blockchains just with a few notes. But with that, inherent the security of the decentralized base layers. But when you have this kind of aspect of where you only have a few nodes, Or one note, even then you start to centralize the computes and the governance. So if it was a validator, that means I everyone's about delegating to one person and
that sucks. So we say, hey, we cannot allow that. We can't allow a centralization to one party of governance and computes, we can allow a centralization of computes because you only need one person to disprove that that sequencer was actually doing the correct state. But Decentralize the governance by using at the end of TS. So each roll up can distribute however, many entities that could have one end of tea.
They could have 1000 and of these are they could have different functions of Distributing creating the end of T's and then you delegate tokens to those end of team members. So it's similar to what people are using spt tokens as soulbound tokens on different etherium chains, but here you can actually trade And you could actually start to accrue more value to the end of T's and also to the tokens. So we separate into our DK2 aspects that governance and the
computes because we don't want. We also don't think it's like economically aligned for a sequencer to decide how much rewards he gets. So it's kind of a, it becomes a negotiation and becomes more of like a real world corporate structure where you have the employee, which is a sequencer could be the CEO. But he is operating the ecosystem. Then you have board members, which are the n and it's and of team members.
And then you have shareholders, which are the token holders that delegate to the end of team members. And there's also Roll-Ups, for example, don't need their own token, so you can have like just pure 11 user one vote so you can get like these different structures and different. Hopefully, very novel, govern instructors on the, on the road player because they already inherent the We of the base layer. That's the core difference between the cosmos SDK and the rdk.
You inherent the developer tooling you inherit the gov. The most, most of the goal modules. We try to stay up to date even though we're moving through the version 46 right now. So a lot of the tooling, a lot of the protocol is very similar in tied to the cosmos ecosystem. At the end of the day, it is a layer 2 on top. Of a layer 1, which is the cosmos. And you guys are just like, constantly refactoring or sort
of merging back into the rdk. The cosmos SDK module, so that there is always this compatibility whichever ones we see fit tour. Roll-Ups. So now that maybe like anything that's up streamed from the staking module. For example, that we may not want to use it but if there's something that's new like the group module I think the group Module, which allows kind of these Sub sub Dows. And with now you include like the end of teas as Governors and the sub dials.
I think that's a great integration between kind of like the main community pools and the sub Dows. So like these things are upstream or Downstream to the rdk. But there's things that are that don't necessarily need to be changed. Very interesting. Yeah. We're Arts of the rdk. You know, when when developers are building applications here, what what, kinds of like compared to building in that chain? What are the, what are the key differences that developers
should keep in mind? And what kinds of applications? Do you think are just not suited for roll apps? Like, if you were talking, Developer and they're telling you hey like we're going to build this new app. You want to build it on roll out. Like what kinds of applications would you consider not well-suited for this construction and sort of steer them towards building, like a nap chain or energy security or
some like that. Yeah, so when you're developing a rollup, you're getting very low latency and you're getting easy bootstrapping. So instead of bootstrapping 50 or 100, validators, get one or two or three nodes that you really need to. Top rate as sequencers. So you have this constant reduction of nodes operating system because you're inheriting that these centralization of the base layer. So, with this reduction of operators, you get a very fast experience for users.
So if you want to do on chain games or whatever, or defy products, then it's amazing. It's amazing because there's two aspects, one, you never the users never get increasing data costs. So the cost are always maintained because You could choose one the, a layer that you could choose another dealer as long as you can balance your cause and then you also have this latency the detriment or the other side is, like, why would you build an app train
over roll up? Is because your protocol really needs that instance censorship resistance. So, and a decentralized protocol like, like a nap chain especially with new 10 German style or new Forks of tender minutes called. The new Lucas out me. Luca see, or one of the 14 Duality they okay. I don't know what's this. Yeah.
So so their product their ideas like there's a few block proposers, and then like one block Builder, and then each one, the block Builder has to have transactions from each block proposer based on steak. So, there are applications that really need or inherent or should inherence the The instant censorship resistance from a, from a train but that's also it's a spectrum. Like, maybe you could wait like a couple of days or a day for censorship resistant.
So it depends on how sensitive that transaction is to type. I think that's kind of like the critical decision Factor if your application should be built as a nap chain or if it should be or should be built as a rollup. And is there a like I've been talking to a lot of people about this idea and I'm starting to see this idea, you know, in a lot of places. And and so this this idea that, you know, smart contracts
Roll-Ups app. Chains are not so much in opposition to each other but exist more on a gradient and and so that we should see things as applications evolving or sort of graduating Steps up that ladder, is there an upgrade path for applications? That may be start as a roll up?
And at some point for reasons that you mentioned need to upgrade or transition to building their own app chain or some other form of consensus is there is is that something you think will happen with applications as they grow or and is there a way an easy way for applications to do that? I don't think will happen Because the core aspect of a rollup is you're getting very low latency which you just don't get the same latency of, like, Point, 01 seconds.
Like there's a reason why you're a roll up, and then you also have this coupling, you have to kind of change Destructor to fit the validators of an app change. So you have to reconfigure things. Is it possible? I think everything is possible and blockchains very fluid, especially when you get into, like the social layer of things and social consensus, but I like a practical level, I don't think that's going to be. Be very common.
I think it's more common for interchange security consumer change should move to a sovereign chain. And I think that's actually, one of the great product Market fit for comes for interchange Securities that it can secure by chains. But it, maybe eventually those things kind of should recycle But in terms of Roll-Ups like if you're if you're building a rollup, then you're probably wants the like super low latency and that kind of aspect of and flexibility of roll up instead of an option.
Cool. Well what's the roadmap? And when can I think you guys already I was I was in the horrible while ago and sort of fiddling around there so there is something that's live. Can people already build on this and what are some of the early projects that are building using demand. So we're building the first. We built the first test next which is going to, it's a
staggered tested. So in February we released the first rolled up and the dimension chain, the role of post the data So to celestion the state routes to, to the dimension chain. It's connected via IBC, we're integrating next week or in two weeks. The evm roll up with with collaboration with the upmost team and the celestial team. So it post it. It's going to reuse the IBC token for gas of f most. So F, most you people are gonna take their MOS.
Faucet token. IBC through the portal to the evm chain and then interact with. Well, we're going to deploy is a UNICEF. For so people could trade on this test set. So it's going to be the first evm roll up and that's obviously connected. And the cool thing is that it uses a different token. It doesn't have its own native token. That's going to be in collaboration with MMOs and Celestial and and so after that, we're going to move to incentivize tested.
We made throw in a few one or two more surprises in between. But other collaborations like a gaming doubt that were that were very close with. And then we're going to deploy it incentivize Testament where people can deploy their own Roll-Ups and this is going to be in the second quarter likely in the latter half like towards the end of the second quarter and people will be incentivized to deploy their own chains.
People will be incentivized to participate in ecosystem and then we'll move on to meyneth main at is going to go from permission to permissionless over time. Very cool. And yeah, we're can be. I think people can go to Dimension dot x y, z and you've got everything there. The documentation the light paper, they can learn more about building a roll up on Dimension, right? Yeah, check out the Discord. We're pretty awkward. Definitely active.
We have a very active community, so sometimes it's hard to get into our community, but we do that on purpose, we want to make sure that people really kind of have heart and we really, really, really really value. The people Who are building the community because it's decentralized chain. Is there chain? That were building? Where we're taking a centralized idea, an idea that was someone in someone's head to an actual product.
So it's decentralized protocol that's, you know, it's going to be autonomous and we need people all around the world to operate these nodes and we need two people to just spread the gospel. Awesome. Well yeah, it's really really fun chatting with you and learning more about Dimension and yeah looking forward to seeing more more coming from this ecosystem and certainly you know a decentralized applications being developed as Roll-Ups. Definitely, definitely I look
forward to as well. Thank you for having me. Thank you, and to our listeners. Thanks for tuning in. I go live every week, so if you want to hear more of this sort of content, you can follow the interop on YouTube and also on Twitter and I do want to announce that. We have announced the dates for nebular Summit 2023. So nebulous Summit is the inner chain Builders conference. It'll be the second edition is happening in Paris, right after ECC. And this year, it will be on
July 24th and 25th. Last year's event was a huge success. It was like, people loved it. It was really cool Vibes, but this year, we're going even bigger. We're going to do two days were expecting up to 800 people. And nebular, Simon is really about bringing the brightest Minds in The Interchange together for technical talks and developer workshops. It is a technical conference so you can expect to learn lots about how to build on the inner chain.
We have an amazing Seeing new venue is this place called the Albert school. It's a historical site in the sense, in central Paris, and the 10th district. And it is formally a ceramic Factory. So it's got this very cool kind of art, deco, Vibe and the sort
of modern elements. So, check out the Twitter Twitter's nebular, Builders and yeah, and this is going to be happening in July. Also, check out the website and Billiard Builders and you can see here, The initial list of speakers, there's about 15 so far but we're soon going to be expanding. We will have somewhere around 80 speakers for this conference and many many faces, I'm sure you're already familiar with here and so tickets.
Go on sale on Monday, April 3rd. So if you want to get notified when tickets go live early bird tickets, you can enter your email on the website or you can follow us on Twitter to get more information and yeah certainly if you guys Guys, if anybody from the dimension team is going to be in Paris for ECC would love to have one of you or at least you, or at least more or as many people from the team as possible, you know, to participate or even give a talk. Cool.
Sounds good. We'll let you know, all right? Thanks so much. Have a good one and we'll talk to you next week. Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. We release new episodes every week. You can find And subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify, YouTube SoundCloud or wherever
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