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Hello, welcome to epicenter Bitcoin the show which talks about that they acknowledge these projects and startups driving Centralization and the global cryptocurrency Revolution, my name is Sebastien Boucher and my name is Fran, Fabian. Frankie, we're here today with a man who needs no introduction in the Bitcoin space, although Will
introduce him. Anyway, it's and dries, em Antonopoulos. He is one of the hosts of let's talk Bitcoin and he's also one of the most prolific speakers in the space and I think he is for sure. The most Adept at just sort of selling Bitcoin to the World and I think he's done a fantastic job here. So yeah, I'm super excited. I'm own and of course he's also the author of this book here, mastering Bitcoin. I bought it. And I like it.
I think it's so I'm not a programmer done a little bit of programming, but I think it's perfect to get a better understanding. So Andreas, thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Guys have been wanting to join you for quite a while now, and it's really a pleasure. Oh, really, we weren't aware of that. That is so flattering. Thank Much.
You have no idea. Yeah, we're really glad to have you on it. We had with Brian was saying about selling Bitcoin to people that that's definitely a major role that you played in my Early Education of Bitcoin. When I first got into it listening to Al TV and watching your different talks, you definitely played a big role in selling me on the technology and the idea. I think probably the same for Brian. Interestingly enough, I don't think I'm at actively trying to
sell anything to anybody. That's why it works. Part of the appeal is that I don't have any interest in any
of this. I don't really own that much Bitcoin, I don't have, you know, a brand I'm pushing or anything like that, but you know what I'm doing is I'm not selling Bitcoin. I'm simply expressing my own enthusiasm, my own unique kind of Iki enthusiasm for this elegant technology and I think that's enthusiasm is infectious and that's that's as far as the selling goes I just really really enjoy talking about this technology because I find it
exciting myself and so when I'm expressing that enthusiasm it's it's genuine I really feel it it's I'm not putting on a show. This is this is just me and if you turn off the cameras of in spend six more hours No talking about Bitcoin to anybody who will listen and, you know the events over I'll take a whole a taxi back to my hotel and I'll get the taxi driver to, to learn about Bitcoin and and, and give them some Bitcoin.
And then I get to the hotel and I'll tell the hotel reception is the best Bitcoin. This is basically me 24 hours a day talking to people about Bitcoin and just refusing to shut up. When they tell me it's a And then, comments and entered the camera. And I just do it under under video recorded. So an average. How many people are they do talk? Especially new people, you talk
with my Bitcoin? Well, it really depends, but I would say, at least two, or three people a day, unless I'm doing a big invent event in which case or meeting, lots of people are going somewhere public in which case, it might be hundreds of people a day, and then You know, Twitter and YouTube multiplying magnify that reach and so I can tell even more people about the things that I find enthusiastic and weird and interesting. And that's pretty amazing.
So so they about like three people on average, they be like new people, you tell about Bitcoin, try to, you know, get some Bitcoin, Try It Out, start using it. That's why I tend to give people Bitcoin. I feel the best way to To deal with Bitcoin is not to try to explain it, but to demonstrate it and to experience it as a new user. So I help people set up a wallet and I give them to bitcoin. Usually, you know, I'll get into a taxi. I'll start a conversation,
they'll say why you in the city. I'll say I'm here for a conference of Bitcoin. Have you heard of Bitcoin? Let me tell you about Bitcoin and 20 minutes later I'm you know they're passing me their Android phone back and saying okay just install a wallet for piano, install a wallet. It's amazing that they They, they trust you with their phone like that after after a 20-minute conversation. Yeah, I guess. Well, he's just in a put big coin on in know, so it's, yeah, it's funny.
I mean, there's there's other people who do this as well. There's a lot of people who do this. In fact, a funny story is I was, I was always a bit. I don't know worried about how how I might be treated at say a border crossing. Sing right. For if I'm going through customs and you know, because their job is to not allow people to carry currency over borders. I truly avoid the word currency so so you know I'll say I went to bitcoin conference or if they ask me why I'm going into a
country out of a country. I'll say I went to a Bitcoin conference or e-commerce conference and on one of these I had I was behind Jeff Garza quiz one of the core developers and he was it was in the same flight as me, returning back from a conference. It's going through Customs and Border Protection and I'm thinking, you know, she should I die, I'll save Bitcoin. But you know, I don't want to. I don't really draw too much attention because I don't want people ask me a hundred questions.
I don't have any money on me. I'm not transporting Bitcoin, but I don't want to, you know, cause an issue. And so I watched Jeff in the line in front of me, he's literally four feet away, steps up to the custom border guy. The guy says, so, where were you doing? And he says, oh I was at a Bitcoin conference Have you heard of Bitcoin? She's amazing. So you can take money and send it from one place in the world to another place that he's waving his arms.
He's like, and he does basically, like a 30 minute 30, second Pitch to the Border guy who stamping his passport and he says, and the porticus like, yeah, that sounds really interesting. Okay, well, mr. Garcia. Welcome to United States is so funny. I was thinking I don't want to get Into it, he's like doing a say, you know, full on Pitch. So, yeah, I'm not the only person who just has a lot of difficulty, containing their enthusiasm about this
technology. I think a lot of the early adopters and a lot of the people who are really, really into this amazing. Technology. You know, they're that guy at the party or that girl party. It won't shut up about Bitcoin. Yeah, that that's cool. So come Catchy your book, tell us how what's the reception been like? Oh, it's really going very well. It's I think it's already sold just over two and a half thousand, almost 3,000 copies, which is really good for
technology book. So it seems to be going very well. It's a number one bestseller on Amazon's e-commerce online trading and digital currency section. It's selling both in print and digital. Oil, and most importantly it's available. Open source available for anyone to read for free. You can download it, you can share it, you can forward the PDF, you can do whatever you want, really with it. And recently, we change the license because it was going well.
And so now, it's under Creative, Commons share-alike attribution, which means that now you can also do derivatives and use it for commercial purposes, and do translations. And there's a bunch of teams working on translations. So the bolt can be used as a basis for Is and videos and whatever else you want to use. It's fully open culture. License, is that common for O'Reilly or other Publishers to do that? To allow the books to be open
source? It's pretty rare for a publisher to do. That O'Reilly is special and the reason I pitched it to a Riley was because of O'Reilly's very long history with with open source and comfort with open source. And so, once once the book is doing well, And showing that it can generate sales and they're very comfortable with gradually opening up the license. And now we've reached a point where it's a full free culture
license. And and and that's why, you know, all Riley is just an amazing publisher of technical books. But they're also an amazing kind of global Citizen and, and supporter of free culture and free knowledge and bringing that knowledge that people and honestly, it doesn't affect sales badly, it actually makes sales A lot of people who will download the book, read it to then, buy a copy so that they have it.
The people who can't afford to buy the book by it, and the people who can't afford the book by the book, read it, and then give it to others who may be buy it. So, it's all good our show today is brought to you by our friends at shape-shift shape-shift is the fast and easy way to trade all coins. They now Support over 25 of the most popular altcoins, including Dogecoin counterparty Dash,
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In the grand scheme of things. I really wanted to get the knowledge out people when I was trying to learn about Bitcoin the source is the were available works really fragmented. The developer guide wasn't out there at the time the Bitcoin Wiki was in complete and partial and you had to Rome all across
it to find any information. There was no single source that had, you know, a good collection of all of the basic information and how it works Soup To Nuts and In a way that has a consistent narrative and flow, not just bits of technical information all Loosely dumped. And so I thought it would be useful to people. Honestly, I think that for Bitcoin to become mainstream the first thing that happens isn't,
you know, millions of end users. The first thing that happens is tens of thousands of software developers who are going to build great applications and great user interfaces, so that users can adopt this technology. It's going To take hundreds of thousands of software developers to make this, what I can be. And we're already seeing this happen, but I thought that would
be an area to to contribute. Now, there's a second reason which is a selfish reason which is that you never really grasped a subject fully and in depth until you try to teach it. I did not have the focus and the ability and the and the programming skills. Quite honestly, To be a full full time. Core developer contributor, or anything like that. I dabble in programming.
I've dabbled in programming all my life and I'm a decent program but I'm not a professional and and I can't keep the focus on something like that. So my best chance to really, really learn Bitcoin was to try to write a book about it and you know, in writing the book, it brought up a lot of questions and the gradually by answering those questions. Questions and learning. I finished the book and and now I know a lot more about Bitcoin than I did.
When I started the book seems crazy to me that the that you would feel that you need to learn more about Bitcoin. Oh. And I can tell you, I am still. So, so so much, I need to learn and even even the book. I mean, you know, this is a book for developers who are trying to enter the space of Bitcoin. Maybe they have a bit of background in cryptography, maybe they have a bit of, you
know, software. Experience and they're trying to enter Bitcoin. But, you know, any one of the core developers can open this book and find 20 things that are, you know, from slightly wrong to quite wrong and big gaps and in bits that are missing. So, don't for a moment there, imagine the, I'm, I'm certainly not even close to being the most knowledgeable person on bitcoin.
I'm not, you know, in cryptography and you know Oh, there there are some real hardcore genius Geeks Behind These behind the core development team, you know, behind many of the projects involved in Bitcoin who do nothing all day, but that my skill is really an explaining things in easy to understand terms and relating to an audience. So I know enough Bitcoin to be dangerous and be able to explain it. Yeah, I mean so for me as well, write that been working on this.
for now, I guess, almost two years to that heard about Bitcoin and On the one hand I have a good understanding of it. On the other hand I'm just scratching the surface know and there's so much I don't understand and I think there are so much that fail. Frankly nobody really understands I think especially when we start thinking of the longer term how it's all going to play out. It's so hard. Yeah everybody's learning.
I mean this is unprecedented stuff but they're there is a really really really smart people in this space with Credible depths of knowledge and, and in cryptography and security and distributed systems and software engineering. Whoo, whoo. Whoo. We're just blessed to have in this space and it's really amazing to watch. Yeah, absolutely. And I have to say, I think use you did strike. It really nice balance between sort of Technical and, you know,
the non-technical. So for, you know, for me as someone like understands Bitcoin, but I've never liked program Bitcoin. It's, I think it's nice. Nice. Because it is a deeper sort of bit deeper dive into the topic but it's not overwhelming. I think it's very great, I just spoke.
So thank you. A lot of work went into creating the correct analogies to be able to describe some of the more complex aspects of Bitcoin in ways that were easy to understand for someone who had a technical inclination. But not necessarily was a professional programmer, but, you know, the book is really designed for, Engineers developers architecture, Engineers, security, engineers, and Technical professionals. It's not a beginner's guide to
bitcoin. It's not for, you know, people who do not have a technical background, they're going to find it, honesty to, to Technical. And there are other books that address that audience. Now, would you say that perhaps for a developer, I'm talking about pronounce myself, you know? Getting getting involved and no, trying trying some things out of technically. I like to dabble. I'm not a really strong developer, but I have some
development experience. I've been a web developer before, like, getting into this book and trying some command line stuff. Is that also sort of the audience you're going for or really just sort of the. Yes, absolutely would be ideal for that. There's certainly enough examples in the book so you can try You know, with relatively easy to use languages and common languages C++ python, Etc, you could try and a lot of command
line examples. So you could go beyond the surface of using a wallet or user interface and be able to roll your own key convert, a key from one format to another build, an HD wallet Etc. Now that doesn't mean you necessarily build a secure system and I certainly would hope you wouldn't take these experiments learning experiments into production. And you know, we know what happens when someone who dabbles in programming tries to, right? Let's say I don't know, an exchange in PHP.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bad things happen. I was thinking more like, maybe some some HTML or something now, can I know? But I think to get it, I think that to get a better understanding of the protocol, you know, someone who wants to get a better understanding of the protocol could absolutely read this book. And, and Their hands dirty with some some Python and maybe some Clement command line stuff. Yeah. And and the book is also its
evolving. So the second print happened, four days ago, contains a lot of Correction and a bit of new material, and some clarifications in various places and I'm getting contributions from the community code examples, new sections of the book. And so it's going to continue to expand, its continue to evolve, I expect by mid-year. We're going to have a second edition in the works, and probably by late summer. We're going to have a second edition come out with
significant additional content. You know, I look I work this book and the publisher works this book as a software project. So we're doing minor version releases all the time, and we're going to do a very major release in the summer with a nice changelog. Full of features and not just Feet fixes. Right? I suppose also as new versions of Bitcoin core come out. You also have to update it. Yeah, absolutely.
There's a lot of Keeping Up With The Changes, you know, just recently about a maybe a month ago, for example, the data storage capabilities, with Opera turn changed. So some you command lines, were added size of the maximum size change from 40, bytes to 80 by Tina. That's important information. So that required an update in the book and and those open source version keeps in perfect
sync with the published version. So, if you download the open-source one, you can see all of that information. So is it? This is, I presume how you've been spending most of your time. No, I mean you give a lot of talks, then at the book, of course, the writing, and now also promoting and reaching developers, talking with them, and trying to sort of, I guess fuel that that slow Revolution.
Or maybe fast Revolution that's happening as more and more people start using this and cryptocurrencies. Well, yes, speaking conferences. Meetups I do a lot of community events made up some interviews and things like that that takes up a lot of my time. I'm preparing a second book that I'm going to start working on in the summer with with another
author. Can't give too much detail on that and I'm launching start out to do some, some work in a specific area of Bitcoin that I'm interested in. Can you hear anything about that or? Well, it's going to happen in the next three weeks, but it involves cold storage for keys and so they'll be some additional announcements about that. So helping companies do cold storage and you know, second book more work. I also work as a as an advisor for a number of different Bitcoin startups.
So helping them with strategic advice with understanding the technology roadmap and where things are going and the trends customers market dynamics, you know, how to build the best product, how to secure it, how to launch it, how to get it to Market. And so working with Executives of the number of different Bitcoin startups, generally speaking, if I'm an adviser to a Bitcoin startups you wouldn't know it's because they're they're allowed to use my advice
but not my name. Yeah no that makes sense.
I guess we had this in between you and be as a bit unfortunate how that turned out so yeah they ended up abusing my name and and in that particular case that changed the way I had to deal with companies because when I first started that relationship I really didn't have a reputation in the space to worry about and so I didn't realize that someone could have used my name Make make it appear as if I was doing a lot more for that company that I was which was just a bit of Consulting and and
then, you know, draw customers in by the idea that I was a participant, which are awesome. So anyway, I had to change my practices to make sure that that couldn't happen again. So now, if I, if I work for a company, that's the last time you ever hear me mention it, since they don't mention me today's magic word is Mastery Mas. Ste Ry head over, let's talk Bitcoin.com to sign in enter the magic word and claim your part of the listener reward.
Now we're going to when I speak a little bit about sort of Bitcoin and where that is evolving. But I wanted to dive a comeback make quickly to the aspect of sort of communicating Bitcoin to like lay people on bitcoin, has anyone really What are you some things that people should avoid that they often do? Yeah, I think it's first of all and this is something I've been doing consistently since day.
One is, I do not recommend Bitcoin as an investment, I recommend against investing in Bitcoin. You do not treat Bitcoin as an investment vehicle, if you know what you're doing, if you're a sophisticated investor, you know, how to build a diversified portfolio and you know, how to make something that is extremely volatile. A small part of that portfolio in a Are structured way. Sure. Maybe you can invest in Bitcoin, but for the average person, this is not, this is absolutely not.
So, saying, saying say, for wise investment because of volatility because of uncertainty, it's it's a technology that can move very, very fast. So just like you wouldn't, you wouldn't invest in biotech penny stocks, even if they made the most incredible invention in biotechnology, you wouldn't invest in those, you don't invest in these kinds of things. There are much more Much safer Investments to plan.
So first of all, don't go telling people to go buy lots of Bitcoin. That's a terrible idea. What it will do is it will give people the wrong idea about what Bitcoin is. It will feed kind of the get-rich-quick greedy attitude and and it eventually will end up with people getting burned by making these Investments. And then they'll blame Bitcoin and that would be unfortunate. I think it's also important not to try to Sell Bitcoin although and certainly very enthusiastic about it.
The idea here is to really help people experience it. So, rather than trying to project your own perspective of what Bitcoin can do, try to, think about what it can do, for the person you're talking to, how can it help them solve a problem in their life? And then basically, address the benefits, talk about what been what benefits Bitcoin. Could bring to their life, does it make it easier to do online Commerce as and make it easier to send money abroad?
Does it make it? Does it just simply give them an experience. Like, listen, this is a very futuristic form of money. It'd be cool to try out and see how the future of money looks like. So, how about I give you a couple of dollars for free and you install a wallet and play with it and then we'll bounce some money back and forth and you'll see how easy it is and
just get that experience. So I think What's the best way to to Really deliver a Bitcoin is to help people experiencing by demonstrating it by giving them a bit of free Bitcoin and helping them set up a wallet, and then showing them how it works. In terms of a slogan as a whole, I just go with a very, very simple idea. I say, you know, Bitcoin is the internet of money. It's a network, it's not a company.
It's you don't have to sign up. You just download software that speaks Bitcoin. And it will do to money. What Skype did two phone calls and what emailed it to the post office and if you understand why Skype is really useful technology, then if you could do that with money, how would it change your life and let me show you some excellent.
Yeah, and then I think one, one big advantage of actually giving people Bitcoin and having them do a Bitcoin transaction is that when you explain it, it seems so abstract, right? It's like this thing and then like oh maybe then I'm going to use this as well. Few years and people maybe even understand conceptually that this is a powerful thing stuff, but they don't see themselves like using it like right now
here. And then it's like, wow, this actually, I mean, just just the fact that you could install an app on their phone and send them money and then tell them the they could take that money. And in exactly the same way, send it to their cousin on another continent or someone they met on Twitter just today or any of that.
It blows their mind because they start making comparisons their banking system that if they have that application running for a bit and they used it every now and then and tried it out. The good news is that eventually their bank will demonstrate to
them exactly why Banks suck. So, as long as you have the Bitcoin experience to compare with eventually, your bank is going to freeze your money delay, a check for three days charge you ridiculous fee for something you never, you know, agree to or do some other thing like that there. Really good at doing it and then you will suddenly think, huh? Hang on a second. So, how come you're only open Monday to Friday 9 to 5 or 9 to 4? It takes three days to transmit money from my account.
To, another account in the same bank, you always hold my money but take the fees immediately, etc. Etc, etc, etc. Why is this still happening in the era of the Internet? Isn't there a better way? And then you realize, oh wait, that guy. I met in the taxi showed me a better way. Hang on. Let me check this Bitcoin thing out again. I think I still have that wallet installed. You guys have pretty good in the state's banks are open on Monday there. Wow yeah. They'll give you started about
how Banks suck. No, I think these are all really good points is, I think especially helping people experience it for themselves and not projecting like your own aspirations about Bitcoin. But sort of trying to illustrate, help them, find out how it how it could benefit. Is a really good approach that the reasons you like Bitcoin is not necessarily the reasons people like Bitcoin.
It's a technology that while it does have, you know, a liberal political bent to it and that it empowers individuals control their money beyond that. Really we all project our own aspirations and desires and worldview on to it. And it's important to remember the audience you're talking to, and express it in a way that makes sense to them for many
people. You know, some of the World Views that are exhibited in the Bitcoin community may be a huge turnoff and so they may not think that's a good idea. Now, one thing that's been a challenge for me, when explaining Bitcoin to people is sort of explaining to them that this is not just about money, that every aspect is of society, will eventually be impacted by, by blockchain Technologies. But most people seem to be at this sort of very low. Level explanation of this is money.
It's used for money laundering, Etc. How do you go about explaining to people that? Yes, this is revolutionary and it like in 20 years perhaps even less it will, it'll be part of your life just as the internet is part of every aspect of your life. Well, unless they're there to watch a conference or Veil where they want to hear some kind of visionary statement about the future. I don't, I really don't.
I just I I give them something extremely practical and, you know, last week I was talking to my driver. I said, you know, where do you come from? And they said to come from Haiti. So do you have family back in Haiti? Yeah. You send the money. Yeah, I send the money. Every every couple of weeks. Do you use Western Union? Yeah. Let me tell you about Bitcoin. And I'm not going to talk about how it's going to change the world. I'm going to talk about how it's going to change their money
transfer to Haiti, not now. But maybe in three years from something that is a eight percent transaction to something that is a point eight percent transaction to something that can only happen by standing in line at an office to something that can happen from your phone directly. And then their next question is, how do I get this big?
I say, well, you drive a taxi, you could drive a taxi and get paid in Bitcoin, by people who have Bitcoin, I could pay you for this ride in Bitcoin, you don't have to go buy it, you can earn it with through your labor and and, and that changes the conversation. It's I'm not talking about a revolutionary technology that Will unseat the governments of the world leading to, you know, as universal currency and decentralization wave that will sweep away nation states while Bob. Blah, blah.
No. I'm like, you know, just maybe send a bit more money to your family in Haiti, simple stuff. Cool, good advice, thanks. So, you've also been quite active. I mean you've spoken at before, can the Canadian and Australian parliament's on the topic of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies? What is that experience? Been like for you and what have you taken away from that? Well, I'm when I, when I speak to Those kinds of bodies and the two times that I have, I think a critical component of that.
Is that the presentation I'm making, is simultaneously broadcast live, and uncensored on a national television network, which allows their constituents and the population of that country to watch, if they're interested. And then the video will be published immediately after for other people to watch. Which means that when I'm speaking to the Senate, And they're speaking to me.
Both of us are very well aware that half of it, were speaking to someone else were speaking to a giant audience out there, not just to each other. And that's really important because they give me a platform where I can speak without censorship to a broad population and answer their questions truthfully. But in a way that allows me to establish, I think the the important points about Bitcoin which allows me to dispel certain myths, and certain, you know, he's To to run two fallacies.
The statements about Bitcoins Hughes for drugs and terrorism and pornography which is the same crap. We heard about the internet in the 90s and allows me to very directly address those questions diffuse them and speak about the global potential speak about jobs and opportunity and growth and speak about votes and younger generation. Let me just say how great you have been of diffusing, those
questions. By the way, I mean they they keep coming and you keep just Deflecting them with such ease and Grace. It's really amazing about you do that out. Just before the show. I was watching the part of the Australian Senate hearings and and I want one of the Senators brought up something relating to the drugs and money laundering and you just took it like a champ. Thank you.
I mean, part of that this practice honestly, you know, before I did either of those two, I spent quite a lot of time practicing with, with people asking me very hostile questions. And half of that is knowing how to answer the question. And trust me I've had lots of practice because these questions come up again, and again. And again, it's part of the framing of the media to immediately go for a very sensationalist angle and they
don't just do it to bitcoin. It's not like conspiracy against Bitcoin. They did this to the internet, they did this to the automobile. They did this to electricity. They've done this to every new and disruptive technology but part of it is Practice. And the other one is simply a presenting an emotional story which is that I'm not going to freak out and start screaming. I'm not going to be offended and I'm slightly amused by the fact that that question has come up
again. And then I address it very, very calmly. And in a way that that shows that there's nothing to hide, nothing extreme going on here, is really just a misunderstanding and we have Important things to talk about. And so, that's really a matter of practice, but I'm very glad I had the opportunity to do that a couple of times. And quite honestly, I'm really lucky because both times it went very well.
So one of the concerns I had with the Australian Senate was, I'm 10 ahead in terms of Senate's presentations, if it goes, well, I'll be 20. But if it doesn't, it will be a tie and hopefully wipe out my my score. Or you know, and and keep in mind part of the you think it went well because they were open to the ideas and they discuss them in a non-threatening manner.
Even if I had done the exact same job to a different audience, they may have been extremely hostile extremely negative and dismissive and then you would have assumed it went poorly when I did the exact same thing. So I don't have control over that so far I've been lucky both the Canadian and Australian Senate were very welcoming. Very open to discussion. They paid attention, they listen carefully, they had done their homework.
They didn't come in with some kind of crazy, Mad conspiracy theory and and just Bluster and things like that. Which tells you why I haven't done a presentation for the u.s., you know, I'd expect more. I mean, some of them are okay, but some of those committees are dressed. Like whoa, crazy. We have people getting up at the senate floor and throwing snowballs on the ground and saying, look at proofs. No, global warming exists like say you can't complain just you just can't.
Yeah. So what do you think is the most threatening aspect of Bitcoin for regulators and lawmakers? II think it's mistaking, it's mistaken control for security.
It's it's this assumption that because you can, you have some control over something that gives you the illusion of security, and then you rather than seeing security as a secondary symptom of that control, you see it, as inherently tied to the control and then eventually, you think the only way to achieve security is through tights control, okay?
Hissing. And and then when you see something that doesn't have tight control, you automatically assume it has no security or that it represents a threat.
So one of the main things about Bitcoin, the confuses people, is because we've never had a system that does decentralized security, the two terms, decentralized and security, see seem to be until 2008 to contradiction in terms centralized control was security and therefore, if you don't have as control, if there's no one who's accountable, if there's no one holding the levers of power, then it how can it possibly be secure? How can it possibly not be
corruptible, you know? Of course, from my perspective, the exact opposite is true. You know, if you have someone holding the leaves of power, that's the one you corrupt and then the system becomes corruptible from the top down and it's very difficult to fix that. And so the idea of diffuse power across a network is actually appealing because it's less corruptible. But that is not an accepted conventional wisdom. That is a pretty disruptive architecture and radical
thought. It requires a change in thinking and perspective, it requires proof that this can be done and increasingly. We're delivering that proof with Bitcoin but it's still challenges. The basic assumptions. Don't World Views of a lot of people who associate hierarchical Authority and control with security and they G8, the lack of hierarchical authority and control with Anarchy and not on archaea.
Some of the people in the Bitcoin community mean it but complete chaos, the breakdown of civil order you know people eating babies and rioting through the streets and burning all the buildings down and, you know, raping our daughters. So so therefore any any challenge to centralization hierarchy and Authority immediately leads to You know Isis or whatever. The latest Bugaboo is a complete breakdown of civilization and and Chaos that is obviously a very naive perspective, in my opinion.
And I think it misses a lot of the really big challenges we have with hierarchical institutions and Authority, but it's still a difficult sell and you have to do it carefully, and it's also a generational thing. For a generation of people who grew up in a certain worldview in the past, this is an
established fact. For a younger generation who see, every social institution around them has failed them, the school's, the courts, the police, the the government, the jobs, the corporation's, the electoral system, all of these things, one, after the other failing them, and the one thing that isn't failing them is the internet. And so, for our Generation. In fact it's very easy to sell this idea because they already get it. Like you know, this is not the same structure as the one that
has failed. You. It's the same structure as the one you have hope in the internet. Yeah, I think it's a good way of phrasing. It, that it is a, even when maybe lawmakers and Regulators, focus on issues, like the consumer protection, is not really those issues. They're concerned about, but it's more difficult. It's like they fear of losing control and things descending into some some world that. Yeah, they can't control
anymore. I think that's, that's really, that's really it. Yeah, I mean, I'd love it. If regulation delivered consumer protection, where was my consumer protection in 2008, but because it didn't deliver and that, and that's the fundamental thing that I, we have to address, which is the it's nice in theory, what you're saying. But the truth is that when it mattered, Regulation and centralized institutions, did not deliver consumer protection.
They abandoned consumers and they betrayed the social Compact and trust and that is a fact. So, we can either pretend it didn't happen or we can address why it happened, how it happened and how we can solve it. And I think simply saying, well let's do more regulation when regulation was at the root cause or at least the corruption Of regulators was at the root cause of these failures until you show me.
Actual consumer protection. I'm going to say, well, why should why should we trust in the same institutions that have failed us at the time when they were most necessary? Let's take a short break and talk about Ledger makers of The Ledger. Nano Hardware wallet. Now, you may have seen this little thing before. This is a USB smart card that contains a secure environment chip which host your private keys and signs are transactions. So you can plug this thing into any computer.
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to get ten percent off. Your order that offer is valid until September 30th 2015. They also just lowered their shipping rate and to do s it now costs less than $5. The legend a no smart card security for your Bitcoins. Give it a try. We would like to thank Ledger but they're supportive represent a Bitcoin. Let's talk a little bit about sort of that the state of Bitcoin and where we are at. So you know, as as everybody knows the become price has been dropping a lot and I'm curious.
What's your view there to what extent has that affected the startup activity and the ability to fundraise for companies in Silicon Valley and in the United States? I don't think it's a fact that it at all and I think it's important to realize that most of the companies that are fundraising in this space. First of all in 2014 or at least in the last 12 months just over 500 startups raised just more
than 500 million dollars. Half a billion dollars which is the fastest rate of investment since the internet in 1995, in the tech sector. In a specific industry, it is an astonishing result, a very promising. Alt and all of that money that has just entered into this space, has resulted, and is resulting, in hiring and training thousands of developers. And none of that investment has actually produced Innovation yet. So it's beginning to now.
And in fact, what we're going to see is the results of that wave of Investments are going to hit about the here or two in the future which is really interesting because we saw some incredible technology deployed in 2014. Yeah, but that was really the result of technology written and tested first in 2012 long before. Silicon Valley started investing in this space, Silicon Valley and the mostly u.s. Centric Venture.
Capital space is investing in Bitcoin companies, in u.s. dollars, not in Bitcoin, they're not using the investment funds to buy Bitcoin, but they might be buying a bit of Bitcoin in order to run some forms of or some parts of their operations.
But for the most part, That money stayed and US Dollars which means that the startups that were funded with that money, we're not really affected very heavily by the drop in price and the investment hasn't slowed down and if anything gets accelerated we're getting use everyday.
We just we just found out about a company that would raise a hundred plus million dollars two days ago and we're still not sure what they do. But yeah, they're still not sure what they do and that's only the stuff you see on the surface. You know. They these are the Oz, VC funds. You've got to consider all of the private Investments and, and Angel Investments and investments in buy Bitcoin angels and all of the other activity. That's like bootstrap will start ups running off credit cards.
Which in fact, most of the interesting startups and Bitcoin are there, they're not like giants invested startups there. Their collection of two or three founders with technical skills, building? Really interesting will projects. Now, do you think that, perhaps, they're there? There's going to be a delayed effect since the price has gone down. And, you know, investment rounds.
Do take long time to get in place that perhaps in 2015, at least in Silicon Valley will see less investment or that pick up. I got no. Not at all. I think I think the the investment is accelerating because more and more people especially in Silicon Valley are seeing this for what it is. They're realizing this is not a joke, there is they see the enormous amount of talent that is being sucked into this industry.
They understand the potential it has you know this is a force that can achieve disintermediation. It can replace intermediate layers with technology and just
like the internet replaced. Several large intermediate layers with direct access to Consumers, but the difference is that the intermediaries in the financial industry are multi-billion dollar, Industries themselves and so Silicon Valley understands that this is the probably the first time That that the software industry has been able to take on the banking industry and introduce competition and change and disruption without having to ask for permission and that's why
they can do it. And that represents a very big prize at the end of the road because disrupting the financial industry means. Removing a lot of overhead, a lot of fat and streamlining things, which will mean great results for those who achieve it. So, So I think we're going to continue to see an acceleration in the investment in Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in the startups in the space. Quite honestly, I think the real issue here is that the price of Bitcoin?
The exchange rate of Bitcoin provides for a very poor price Discovery mechanism for the industry. It's not a price Discovery mechanism for the industry, it's the equilibrium point which the outflow of money from bit. Coin in the form of mining Revenue to pay for electricity matches or fall short or overcomes, the number of new Adoption. Like at the moment in order for the price to stay stable, we have to have 3,600 Bitcoin in new Adoption come in every single day.
That's a big flow of money and we're going to see I think a significant change when the reward halves in 2016 as that's going to naturally. Actually push the price a lot higher because the inflow of investments will will be greater than the outflow of mining Revenue. But, you know, this is this is really not a price Discovery mechanism. I think it's a mistake to look at and I certainly did. Make that mistake.
In the beginning, I felt the Bitcoin price represented kind of an index fund for the industry, you know, like like a like an investment fund but it isn't. And the reason it isn't is because it's affected by things that A lot more to do with with currency Flows In and Out of the economy than it does with the fundamental strengths of the industry itself of the technology or its development.
And because it's a tiny liquidity pool it gets very seriously moved around when anybody makes a big move in this industry. And so largely, I think it's disconnected from the fundamentals and that means that it's great for speculators most of the movement. You see is one guy saying, oh, the chart looks like to quote The Dilbert cartoon, the chart looks like a rabbit sitting on a
clown, Now's the Time to buy. And then the other guy says, so now, it's looking like the clown sitting on the wrap it. So now we're going to sell and that kind of technical analysis in a tiny liquidity, pool is a circle jerk if I can use that expression on radio. Yeah, essentially it's a feedback loop where where the activities of one Trader are affecting the perspective and sentiment of the others. And there's a bit of fundamental Holes in there but not enough to
make a difference. So I don't really pay attention to that. I protect myself from volatility. If I if I have expenses denominated in dollars I'll sell Bitcoin quickly to pay my bills and if I if I received in Bitcoin or vice versa and so I won't stay in one currency for too long and I won't be exposed to Too Much exchange rate volatility and you know, I use it primarily as a means of exchange and It works fine for me and so I'm able to ignore the price for the most part.
Now, the problem is, I'm human and all of our participants in this game are human, we have emotions and these emotions are very easily affected by the price of Bitcoin. So, you know, I'll be having a fantastic day and then I'll see the price of Bitcoin tank and I like brown efface. And then, the next day Bitcoins, it like this week Bitcoins, like sha top from, I don't know 272. Almost 300 and and I like I don't care about the price of Bitcoin but I have a big smile
on my face. I don't know why she probably it's hard not to be emotionally affected by it but we'll see. It's it. I think it's interesting just how different situation is and the sentiment that the startup scene and investment team in the u.s. from like in Germany and Berlin or in France. Or in other European countries. I think it's I guess here that sort of wave of people becoming interested in Bitcoin saying all this is the future that never
never really started. Or maybe there was like the very beginnings of it and when you don't have like all your colleagues talking about it, you know, like nobody's doing it. I mean, there's such a herd Instinct with people there and then the price I think does pose a problem. Because for people who aren't so in tune debate, don't understand that technology at it makes it so much harder to sell them at.
This is a lot of potential when you see like a, but then if that's really the case, why does the Bitcoin price keep going down? Like so I think it from people, you know, I know here who have been trying to erase investment from investors and they've they've been having a difficult time and the price of Lee has exacerbated a bit. So, So, yeah, Barry silbert had the best answer. I think it was Barry who was asked, you know, why is the
price of Bitcoin going down? And when do you think it's going to start going up again? And his answer was, it's going down because there are more sellers than buyers will go off again when there are more buyers and sellers that's it. It's a simple as that and who are the sellers right now? Miners paying for electricity bills. Merchants converting from Bitcoin back into Fiat as quickly as they can because they're not using it as a store
of value. And the buyers are people adopting Bitcoin, not just through use it but also to store value in it for the long term. And and so is that the industry not really, it's not the industry, it's just one aspect of economic activity. So in your opinion, what needs to happen for that Trend to for the earth to be more buyers and sellers time? And it really is just a matter of time. I think the overall adoption Trends in terms of brand awareness.
In terms of more people having heard of Bitcoin, trying Bitcoin, more people showing up with meetups the Grassroots Community, the number of companies, the number of developers, the software being built, better software Slicker software easier, experience more secure wallets, all of those Trends are moving in the right direction. And so over time, it just builds momentum and builds momentum and maybe at some point we're going to have a critical event, a
spark event. That's going to turn it hockey. Stick like and we're going to see very very Rapid exponential
growth. But until then it's just, you know, gradual, hard slog, and I know worried about that, that doesn't frighten me. I've seen this before, I first, I first started dabbling with the internet really professionally around 1989 1990. And then I watched for the next seven or eight years and, you know, in my mind like, this was mind-blowing stuff that it was obvious, and it was going to be huge. And then the market just took
seven to eight years to start. Art building up momentum and then it crashed in 2001. He stood up the internet to over, let's move on to something else. So I'm not scared. I mean I did this Market sentiment happens. That the real question is, is there something there is Bitcoin real? Is there a technological invention here? That is disruptive. That is effective that solves problems. That does something nothing else can do that. Is truly remarkable.
And the answer is yes and I'm I have no doubt in my mind that it is, therefore, just a matter of time before this technology and it may end up not being called Bitcoin and may end up using the different currency. But in fact, but I actually think it is going to be Bitcoin and I think it's gradually going to gain a bigger and bigger foothold and it will eventually become the de facto currency of the internet. The de facto Global transnational Exchange Currency
for digital companies. So we're going to come back to this point. The point of this sort of long-term outlook for Bitcoin because this is something that has been a topic again. And again, on our podcast, it's something, we've been thinking a lot about the sort of long-term potential issues that challenges are in the way.
But maybe, before we dive into that, we for those who are interested in getting involved in Bitcoin, Maybe, You broke a developers or maybe they have other skills of expertise. What are they big opportunities that you see in the space especially those that are kind of neglected, and that nobody is doing free start-up ideas? Yeah, I don't think fruit. Yeah. I think it's always wrong to start a start-up. Bye-bye, starting with what is the idea that's going to be successful?
I think the most important thing you can do in any startup is look, look hard at what drives you as an individual, your personality, what are your core principles? What are the things that excite you and then try to find that one thing that that drives you so hard. You can't put it down. You can't sleep at night, you can't stop thinking about it. Drives your personality.
It's important to you. It's important to the very core principles of who you are and do Bitcoin in that, because nothing can make up for the enthusiasm, and focus and execution drive over founder, or founding team the really, really passionately Drive behind an idea and, you know, if you just go, okay, was the thing. I think will sell the most you're going to fail. Now in terms.
Of Bitcoin and the future. Honestly, I think there is there's a lot of really Visionary stuff going on and we've seen this whole Bitcoin 2.0 do space etcetera but I think for the next two years, the vast majority of work we have to do is in 30-40 core. Infrastructure systems exchanges wallets ATMs and the surrounding applications making Bitcoin easier to get easier to use easier to secure.
And spreading that reach to more people and and I would say, you know, that's very similar to your, not to the internet, you didn't get the web out of nothing. You got the web when the time was, right? Because isps had been deployed on the back of email all across the world. And so every country had begun to deploy is be infrastructure and get out modems and personal computers and get people connected at least basically with it. Email and that created the
necessary. Adoption density to be able to deploy something like the web and lead. The next range of killer applications. Bitcoin is a payment mechanism is already here. We've got the infrastructure. We need to deploy a lot of exchanges, a lot of ATMs and a lot better wallets which is
already happening. But you know, I assume that there there will be two or three exchanges in every country in the world and we're going to also see decentralized exchange, the multi currency exchanges and things like that. Some were also going to see more and better wallets and that basic infrastructure as boring as it seems is what's required in order to get to the point where we can then.
Push pull out, more killer apps on top of this platform, the space is sort of evolved over time from being a, I mean, Bitcoin being in bed ssion of cypherpunks, and crypto anarchists and a Out of that ideology is still there. But as we move forward, you know, a lot more business coming into this space and we definitely see that at
conferences. There's sort of a dichotomy of like, the people that are there with some of the ideological foothold and others that are just too to make make products and make money. You think that there's an evolution of the space towards is more like Bitcoin equal. Sorry business. Friendly products. How do you see that play out in the future? Yeah, of There is, I mean that this is inevitable in the
maturity of any technology. Most technology start out with a very focused, set of principles, or engineering objectives, or architectural goals. And then as they hit mainstream, they gradually morphed to adopt the principals of desires of mainstream and they get diluted. This is normal, this is what happens in the maturity curve of any technology. So if I have the suits, you know, Playing on the blockchain
architecture, we're winning. We just we just took a cypherpunk project and I mean not me personally but you know this community took a cypherpunk project insert it as a trojan horse in the Global Financial Services industry and it got so good and so attractive that now it's peeling off suits from the financial services industry who want to start playing on our turf with our decentralized protocols now Are they going to change Bitcoin and make it more centralized?
Sure they are, but they never going to make it a centralized as Visa or Mastercard or Swift or the current banking system, they're playing on our turf and that is a huge Victory and it will lead to massive decentralization and financial services just like you know on the internet to eventually the phone company's got into its and you have a whole bunch of phone company, Executives, and eventually they end up centralizing things and threatening that neutrality.
Yeah, but they're still playing on the internet and that that decimated, the clothes Monopoly control of the of the long-distance phone companies and and nationalized networks. And all of that crap that came before and I remember that and it was a mess and we got them playing on the internet. And guess what? Has centralizes the internet became as net neutrality hostile? Is it became as travail this became, it gave birth to bitcoin. Because we won as a time and now
we're going to do it again. So, you know, I'm not worried and and in fact, if we see the principles, they looted too much, you know, already there are a whole bunch of cypherpunks moving on to do them next most disruptive protocol on the back of Bitcoin or as a trojan horse with in Bitcoin again and again and again so we continue reintroducing disruption. That is the nature of change and you can you can only co-opt so It's the Greek approach to Barbarian invasion.
You know, you open the doors, you introduce them to the idea of twelve gods and orgies, and you wait two decades and their Greeks and to The Barbarians invaded you and your culture
invades them. What are your thoughts on curious about some of these new sort of semi decentralized solutions that we see in touring the space like hyper Ledger like areas Industries and others that are trying to take the technological idea of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency and general, and bring it to some sort of a semi decentralized model that doesn't really carry all the ideas of the Creator. That's great. I think there's plenty of
competition. What it will do is it will train more and more people than these asme decentralized ideas is still semi decentralised and it rains. People who are steeped in a lifetime of thinking and centralized fashion to see how semi decentralized work, and what that does is it gives them a taste, you know? So that's a bit like asking, you know, did CompuServe help the internet or not sure it did introduce a lot of people to CompuServe email and they saw CompuServe.
Email said this is kind of cool but I'd like the real thing. Can I have internet email please and then CompuServe was over and the internet picked up all of the slack. You can simulate and creates decentralized semi decentralized things, but the point is the pace of innovation the disruption of the destructive potential. The Really interesting applications. They come from the decentralized architecture.
And so if you send me the a centralized your only semi competing and we will we can we can beat that, it's not a problem at all. Yeah, I mean I think that's has also been my point of view and it's funny because we actually use Trojan horse before when we talked at the topic and discuss
the topic. Because, you know, when you start having giving easy access to people like to hold, Money and integrated in a banking on cetera, of course, the transition from there, to a wallet that, for example, you know, Alexis, you know, wallet that's hosted on your computer where you control a private key. That's a very easy step, right?
The first step part softening, we're softening the edges were basically creating easier on ramps into these Concepts and and Technologies. But the whole point about decentralization is That it has a cost decentralisation is more expensive and more complex but it also has a benefit. And the benefit is that it fuels much more rapid Innovation because Innovation can happen at the edges without permission from a central stakeholder in a very diffuse and decentralized
fashion. People can innovate on Niche applications that nobody would approve on a centralized Network and and that is how you win because it's an endless source of surprises. It's a Endless source of new innovation and new applications and the semi decentralized things can never keep up with that. Let's take a short break to talk about V or oh the goal to Bitcoin exchange. If you ever try to trade gold for Fiat, you know how difficult that can be right?
You have to do a bunch of kyc wire some money, over that takes a week, Plus cost, a bunch of Bank fees. Then you can only trade large amounts of gold, and what do you want to get the money out? You got to pay even more fees and wait for another week. Well, Torah does things differently. It's so easy. And so quick to start trading gold, and Bitcoin and motor that you need to give this a try. Even if Never traded gold before the Bitcoin Network makes deposits lightning fast.
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revolutionary currency Bitcoin. So go to Vault, tour.com and start trading gold today, and we'd like to thank baltoro for the support of epicenter Bitcoin. So in the long run, you know it seems is Bitcoin has a lot of advantages right now. And if you think of it as sort of a long run, their currency, write them in the air, all the old coins, they're basically irrelevant, you could say and none of them have gotten any kind of adoption.
That being said, we have been talking about, especially the issues with proof of work and whether it can stay secure in a Long run or what are your thoughts on that issue? I think it's it's important to know to realize that Bitcoin is a dynamic system. In some parts of it can involve and some parts of it can't evolve so easily. But I think there's a lot of smart people working on, solving skill, ability, issues and making making Bitcoin work
better now. 10 years from now we'll probably have Then called Bitcoin and it will probably resemble what we have today in some of the fundamentals. But, but not in the implementation, it will be quite radically different. And so, you know, one of the analogies that I use often is that when I started in computer science and in 1990, we had ethernet. And every year, someone would write an article about how ethernet can possibly get faster and how it's going to reach the limits of physics.
Etc, etc. And every year, Here they were wrong. And now you know 25 years later we still have ethernet. But how similar is the ethernet of today with the coax cable protocol, we had in 1990, it shares some basic similarities. It has some fundamental Collision detection and framerates characteristics that are similar, but it's like a car where only the steering wheel is from the original. And you replaced every other part, is this still the same car.
No, it's not and yet it is and you still call at ethernet. So we will have a Bitcoin that may have received many upgrades under the hood and the brand continues in the core
principles. Continue in the decentralized architecture continues Bitcoin is I think very difficult to unseat from that perspective but I think it's also important to realize that the idea that Bitcoin is competing against other currencies, in a zero-sum exclusionary Game is a context of thinking that comes from National currencies with
national monopolies. The idea that they can only be 194 currencies one per country and those who monopolies in facts are thinking in the cryptocurrency space, Bitcoin can coexist with tens of thousands of currencies and many of them can become equally valuable and find Niche
applications. This is now fully open ecosystem without barriers to Evolution and we will see these currencies evolved and Occupy, the niche that they are most fit to occupy and coexist in layers and synergistic relationships and parasitic relationships. And entire ecosystems of related currencies, we are now living in a poly currency pluralistic society after 2008, and the idea of Monopoly currencies is dead. So it's not Bitcoin against the world.
Bitcoin will find its Niche. It will probably be a very powerful. Powerful dish but it's going to coexist with thousands of other currencies. Yeah. I mean this is somewhat where my own thinking on this issue is also often I think the to what extent are, you know, becoming successful dramatically depend on the ability of the community to evolve to protocol until a question. Also, some of the sort of for not fundamental design choices to do, she made? Sure I was there. I was in Spain.
Chain two weeks, just shortly. And I was reading the book of Satoshi and it was actually the first time that I was reading some satoshi's writing, except for the white paper. And and I think one of the things that just sort of struck me, and it's kind of obvious, but we tend to forget about it. It's just how difficult this job was. Like, what a Monumental task that was and how much he had to
just Choices, right? Because like you don't know how things are gonna turn out and you don't have the time or capacity or skills or knowledge to try to model where things will be in that there will be a six and Mining pools and all those other things, 10 years that line. But then I think those choices will actually be very crucial to the extent that you know the network is stable and survived.
So I think in my my own view this is I think the ability and the willingness to kind of think about these things and Take action. The proactively, not just when something goes wrong, will be key and hopefully hopefully become will make that and you're certainly right. It had, there is a huge advantage today, in terms of
network effects, right? It will be very difficult for anyone to displace Bitcoin unless Bitcoin runs into some really big obstacles, which even that they have to not only be big, they have to be insurmountable and unfixable or persistent of a long periods of time, which again is a rare. Raishin, the other thing is to realize, there's a significant element of Observer Bias here, you know, it's not as if, you know, suppose you made all of the right choices and and you
know, we can see that. Now the thing is that the reason we can see that is because Bitcoin, succeeded and therefore validates, its all of the choices, the Satoshi made, and we don't talk about the hundreds of other attempts, at creating Dating forms of digital currency from the early Beginnings in the mid 70s through the 80s and 90s and all of the other centralized on mind mind using different protocols. Different decentralized approach has all of the ones that failed,
we don't talk about. So it appears as if one person came along, made all the right choices and done know, the reason we talk about Bitcoin today is because the choices that were made ended up proven good. Bye. Bye it. Bility to support a 10 billion dollar market cap, which is supported at some point and attracting the Investments that we've seen in the, in the interest of people.
Now, the great thing is that now it can evolve based on production Hughes to to best fit, the needs of the people who use it. And so it's now it's a live system. It's it wasn't necessarily the best thing, but it was the protocol. It was good enough and and caught on early enough just like TCP IP is not. The best set of protocols, but it was good enough and it evolved fast enough. And after that, if it needs, little tweaks here and there, in order to expand its use, they make them.
And and and you know, this is the funny thing is that just as we see a bitch worries for Bitcoin, people are writing obituaries for, for the internet and its basic protocols throughout the 90s, right? And eventually they stopped only because it became obvious that that It was refusing to die and and in fact thriving now we write different kinds of obituaries now, the internet is here to stay, but the free internet is dead and it will forever be more and more
centralized. And again I think that's also a short sighted and the same thing with Bitcoin. Now we're beginning to see, people say, oh yeah, but mining is getting so centralized that eventually it will collapse in on itself. I don't think that's true either. This is dynamic system and will ebb and flow. It will get more centralized will get more decentralized people. We'll push against that, you know, it's a dynamic system with
with influences. And there are a lot of people now invested, both literally and metaphorically in the success of Bitcoin. So, coming back on these issues, like, you know, scalability Etc. I had really had my doubts about whether or not the ecosystem has the ability to take a step back and look at the problems. As they are and fix them because people who seem to get so emotionally charged.
And I don't know, I mean, that was definitely there at that time, it was too young to know what was going on. But with the internet, I don't think people would get in. So, emotionally rattled up about choices that were made in the design of TCP IP, for instance. Oh yeah. They were, they were yeah. Oh, yeah. They were. I mean, did they have? I don't think they had such an emotional, and they were t-shirts to to make fun of the synchronous transport.
Remote ATM protocol and it's 53. Byte payload, they made went to conferences and screamed at each other about centralization and selling out to the suits and all of that very very much the same. And there were a few important organizations within that frame, that managed to just strike the right balance and make good engineering decisions. And stare stare, the main protocols in the way they needed to be to get here.
You know, a lot of this happened because of Organizations, like the ietf and I can, and various other standards bodies and w3c, the managed to strike water and retrospect some good balances. We're seeing that in Bitcoin to, you know, I see a very, very healthy conversation on the core developer mailing lists and among the community of Engineers and architects who are involved in Bitcoin about what needs to be fixed and how it can be
fixed. And there are lots of competing proposals and they all receive healthy. Is of skepticism and nothing is a sacred cow. I think there are some things, obviously in Bitcoin the will not change. You know, the 21 million coin, cap will not change. No one will ever agree to that but you know, pretty much everything else is is up for a redesigned as necessary. If it becomes a problem, it will get replaced and the things that are becoming bottlenecks
scalability issues. Etcetera are vigorously discovered, a very healthy debate. So I'm very optimistic that these things will We'll continue to evolve in a positive way. That's really good to hear them. Yeah, I mean I think, I think the challenge did this particular challenge in the Bitcoin example know, is that you have money involved, they're different people have large Financial stakes and you somehow need to Old, get them aligned, which can be a challenge depending on the issue.
Of course, in some cases, it's not right, like an externality, its internal to the system which is really interesting because what it means is that if you The wrong choice, your money is worth less right de facto. So that also creates a very protective environment where because people are invested more than just ideologically, then that that kicks in markets, incentive structures for good decision-making.
And and, you know, in fact what we saw in the past, for example, the internet, it was a pure, it was a pure battle between an engineer's and Suits. If you like some who had just principled positions on engineering and some who just wanted to make more money on it with Bitcoin is kind of a mixed mixed game because, you know, the engineers are into money and and the money people have to do a bit of engineering to. So it's it's engineered money. It's a new thing.
What? We'll see how it plays out, but it's going to be interesting. Again, that's part of the really exciting thing about this is that Have front row seats in the development of a historic technology that is doing things that have never been done before.
And every day that goes by, I just feel amazed at at having this opportunity to be Frontline observer in and sometimes influencer in in what is turning out to be, perhaps historic generational worldwide impactful, Eruptive change in technology one that will create history and and that is an amazing feeling. I definitely agree with that. I think Brian probably even more so than I, because he works out
of the etherium office. I'll be, I was in Berlin last week and I walked in on Nutella Butera and and Gavin wood working in there in the office. And I, I just somehow felt like, I don't know, being in the, in the Apple offices, in the early 80s or something like that. I mean like it's just it just seemed like 15 years from now I would look back on this on these times and really look back on them as sort of being at the like you say, you know, being at the beginning of something
you're just really huge. I think we all feel that I know what you think. Brian, I couldn't agree more and I also think this is that the perfect the perfect note on which to end the episode. Now I think we are very privileged to be part of this part of this Revolution and, you know, none of us doubt that this is going to be such a big impact on on. Things and how how things are
done and how we live our lives. And I think we're going to have a tremendously positive impact and it's just super exciting to be part of that. Absolutely. Part of the fun is not knowing where any of this is going. I was like, we're not in control, we're not.
We're just going to see well address, thanks so much for coming on. It was a great pleasure, talking to you really enjoyed it and maybe one last time for those who want to do get more into Death of Bitcoin, spend some time, trying some bring out, maybe sending some transactions from the command line, I certainly will do that. Yeah, check out this book mastering Bitcoin and it's on GitHub as well. Know where is he? Yeah if you search Bitcoin book on GitHub, you'll find it, it's
free. It's also honestly, as being Seated on torrent sites, as a PDF, people are exchanging the the Kindle version and the mobile version, which of course This is perfectly fine and yeah so you can you can find it if you're not a developer don't buy it. Go to read it for free and I hope you get something useful from it but do buy it or tip address for for is awesome work. So that's okay. Okay.
Well, thanks. Yeah. So thanks so much for coming on and yeah, Joel is no, thanks very much for listening to the show. We appreciate it very much. If you want, you can follow us on Twitter at Epsom Derby TC and you can also tip us. And you can do that. Well depends if you listen to it on it's a big point it's just in there or you can do it at Epsom, victim, the Palm such tips. So thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week.