Will This New Policy Offend My Employees?

From the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is Entree Leadership, where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win in any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches right alongside you. If you got a question you want to ask on the show, well just jump on entreeleadership.com slash ask.

Fill it out. We'll get back to you. Or you can leave us a voicemail. We'll call you and set you up to be a caller on the show, like this is a call-in show kinda. Hello. 844-944-1070. 844-944-1070. Curtis is in Phoenix. Hey Curtis, welcome to the show. How can I help? Hey, how's it going, Dave? Better than I deserve. What's up in your world?

Hey, so um I'm a CEO of a security company. Uh we have roughly twenty five employees and we do about two million dollars in revenue a year. Good. My question is My question is, how do I implement implement no gossip about policies without infringing on um the employees' right of freedom of speech and or creating a culture of fear? Well, the employees uh y you do not have a freedom of speech without consequences.

All of us have consequences for our freedom of speech. Okay. For instance, I can say something negative about someone and get sued for defamation of character. I can't I can't claim freedom of speech on that. It doesn't work. Okay? And so uh, you know, saying something negative about your employer will get you fired. That's not freedom of speech. Okay? That doesn't qualify for that. So culture of fear is really easy. It's like, guys.

Okay, number one, you've got to before we talk about policy changes, we've got to just say in general, do we have or let's put in place a no gossip policy, which we did at Ramsey many, many years ago. So for many years we've been saying, listen, When you have a problem, and you will have a problem, or when you've got a question or a gripe, any of those things are valid. Any of those things are allowed. But you need to hand the problem to someone who can do something about it in leadership.

Just sitting and talking negatively to everybody in the lunchroom is called gossip. That's handing negatives down, not handing negatives up. And we will talk to you about that one time and then we will fire you. Because we don't want everybody sitting around and running everybody down the whole time.

And it you know, s whoever's not in the room gets talked about, whether it's leadership or whether it's anybody else. That's the thing. So you take your negatives to leadership. And as long as you don't do that with a belligerence as long as you're not nasty about it, then or threatening or something like that, then

You know, then you're you know, you're welcome to talk to leadership. I'll listen to you on at Ramsey come in and disagree with us about anything. And then I'm gonna tell you, okay, I think I agree with you, or I disagree with you, and here's why. And I'll give you I'll tell you more about what's going on if I can, if I can tell you what's going on, if there's something not private about somebody else or something.

I'll just say, you know, I I uh in other words, you you institute a policy, Curtis, and somebody comes into your office and says I don't agree with that policy. You say, okay, well there's two possibilities here. One is you're wrong, the other one's I'm wrong.

So let's talk it out. Okay. And um so what is it you don't like and why do you think we're wrong in doing this? Okay. And then you talk that through and you go, okay, well here's what you didn't know. The reason we put this policy in place is it's for your safety. Because we're trying to keep people safe. We're in the security business and you get killed if you don't do this right. And so

Um, I know you don't understand that, but that means we that's why we do this. And so, no, we're gonna do it. And now that you have more information, you get to decide. You know, if you want to work here and you don't have to work here, I'm not firing you, but um but you know, if you if you think you're working for doofuses, you work someplace else. I mean, that's okay. You know, I wouldn't work for a doofus. So I wouldn't want you to work for a doofus.

And so, you know, we talk it out and what are we gonna do with this? Then we're gonna say, all right, we're gonna hand negatives up and positives down. So then when I announce, if everybody knows that's the deal. Then when I announce a new policy, I just remind them of that. I say, listen, here's what we're doing. We're doing this thing, and this is what's happening. And it's kind of icky, but this is what's going on. I tell people what's up.

And or it's not icky and this is just something we're changing. And if you got any questions about it, talk to your leader. Or if you got a problem with it, talk to your leader. But remember, we don't hand negatives down, we hand negatives up.

Or frustration's down we end frustration's up. All of that's fine, but you know, just remind you that that's what we're doing. And so then if you walk through the lunchroom and somebody's running the down the whole thing, then you go, wait a minute, wait a minute, come here, come here, let's go over here and talk a minute. Because we just said a minute ago we weren't doing that.

Right? And and you call it out. But you have to have laid the foundation first and then when you announce the policy, you remind them of the foundation of we don't do that here. And if you want to be a we and and Truthfully, people get sick of working in places where everybody sits around all day long running everybody down. Right. They don't want to work. And so they're the the team in by and large will be real happy

But some people, I mean, I probably fired in 30 years, I may have fired 10 people for this. It's not many, but but word gets around, you know, we don't do it. And um and most of the time it was just people who were emotionally immature and couldn't keep their mouth shut, you know? They just couldn't keep themselves from doing.

It's like, oh man, I can't fix this. You can't you can you don't have enough self-control to not do this. It's crazy. And that that's what I've run into more than somebody that's just a hugely bad character, you know. And of course the ones that piss us off is employers, Curtis, more than anything else, is somebody who's running down the company that pays them so they can feed their kids.

It's like who peas in their cereal and then gripe because it tastes bad. You know I mean, come on. That's just nuts. And and that's what people do. And and so but they do. They just it it's something about they they grew up that way or they grew up around people doing that or their friends do that or whatever. And so it's the that disloyal kind of gossip.

You know, and it it's not disloyal to question something. It is disloyal to do damage to the very thing that is feeding your family. You ought to be ashamed of yourself in that case. And th that is disloyal and that is gossip and that is of particularly nasty kind. Is that does all that help ya? Absolutely. Absolutely, sir. Yes, sorry, Dave. Yeah, so I think but I I think sometimes you know Certain cultures of types of industries are more prone to this than others.

And so you've really got to decide, okay, is this something I've really got to for instance on a construction site with a bunch of guys on a carpentry crew, it would be it would take a different form of gossip than it would in a beauty park. You know, a haircut salon, right? It'd be a different kind of a feel, a different vibe on it. But it's still negative pass to negative just for the sake of being negative.

And it's still uh that's still what's at the core of it. And so our basic thing is your hands your negatives up, your positives down, and Uh and and you know, you're uh you're perfectly safe to bring disagreements into a leader's office in a non belligerent way. Now you can't come in and yell at me and tell me I'm stupid, I'll fire you. But I mean but you can come in and go, Dave, I really don't understand this and it's really frustrating me.

And that happens almost every week around here with some leader. Not necessarily me, but somebody around here. And so You know, that that's what we're looking for. And uh it's a really, really good question, man. Uh appreciate you joining us. Thanks. Thanks for being here. Thanks for hanging out.

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thirty minute call or click the link in the show notes. That's a pretty cool idea right there, guys. It's brand new. We've never done that before. Or we think you ought to give it a shot. Joel is in Flagstaff, Arizona. What's up, Joel?

Hi Dave, thanks for taking my call. Sure. How can I help? So I'm in the construction industry. I'm the company owner. I have five employees. And last year's revenue was just north of three quarter million. Wow, good for you. Thank you. So I uh in my hiring I had a similar problem like you have mentioned in the past where I would hire anyone who could fog up a mirror. Mm-hmm.

And so I've gradually increased my questions and my vetting process during interviews and I've asked my applicants like skill and code questions. So now I'm still running into employees with anything with emotional or personality problems, honesty. Anger, you name it, those type of issues. So my question is how do I get to the deeper character questions during the hiring process to determine if they're a good fit for my company? It's difficult to

Um it is hugely difficult. But the uh uh uh one of the things I would do is just keep pulling on the thread. And sometimes they'll they'll s give you a one word clue. And one of the things I uh one of the things I can learn a lot about'em is how how did that how did that how did you interact with everybody at the last place? I mean did you have anybody there was there anybody at the last place any trouble with honesty?

Was there anybody that had trouble at the last place? And and see, because you know, the old the old myth the old uh Aesop's fable of the guy runs into the wise man on the road and he says, Uh, how are the people in that last town? And he goes, Well, how were they where you where you were before? He says, Well they were great. And he goes, They're gonna be great. He runs into another guy. He goes, How were they in the last time? He said, They're awful. And he goes, Well, they're gonna be awful.

And the point being it's the guy, it's not the place he was, right? And so where he w if he'll talk negatively about his old employer, you probably got a problem child. But if he just says, Hey, he was a great guy, we just didn't fit and uh you know, they built a good house though, and um I you know, I was proud for the time I had there. Well that's a pretty classy thing to say, right? About some place you used to work. And so

But if he goes, Oh no, that guy's a scumbag and everybody works over their smokes pot and you know, well, you work there, you know. So, you know, um I'm I'm gonna try that's one of the things I'll a ask about. Uh And of course, if they happen to be, and in your world this is really helpful, if you've got some thoroughbreds, some men and women for that matter of high character on your team and they know this person, they're gonna know.

And I'm gonna ask about their personal life. I'm gonna go, okay, you know, what do y'all do on uh what what you and your family do on Sunday? What do y'all do on Saturday? Uh, what sports are you into? And they say on Sunday we're in church. Okay, well that's good clue. I that's helpful. Not everybody in church is a good person, but uh they need to be in church, but that doesn't you know, but I mean that's at least gives me something to go on, right? And so um You know, or

Uh, you know, we spend all our time at the ballpark and it's just a shame those guys that are the referees, they're just awful. Of course they're fourteen years old, but they're awful. And you know, I mean they start running you know, you c you could get the anger out of'em on something if there's anger down in there, right? But it t it requires talking. The second idea so first idea is to get'em to talk about their old place. Second idea is try to get referrals out of your team.

Third idea is to talk about what they do with their time and that'll give you a a clue to look into it. Um and uh you know Somewhere the third the fourth idea is to try to do one of the interviews in a non formal place. Like kick back and have a cup of coffee on a couch. And a coffee shop. And something about the change in posture causes people to let their hair down and l be a little bit more of who they really are, instead of being all like playing a part to get a job, right?

Mm-hmm. Everybody dresses up for an interview. Everybody tries to be on their best behavior for an interview and once they kinda forget they're on an interview, because we're just kinda kicking around drinking a cup of coffee here, then hanging out on the back porch, you know, kind of thing.

our are uh it's one of the reasons we go to dinner with him with a spouse before we hire'em because in that dinner setting with the spouses, everything kinda changes and you s you start to learn things about people and you watch the way that he treats his wife.

Walking in the door, you know, and that kind of stuff. And you'll you'll see that w even if you didn't mean to see it. It'll just be right there in front of you. If you don't see it, your wife will see it. And you know, that kind of stuff. And you'll go, Okay, hey, this guy's got he's got some kind of issue.

You know, and then you could dig a little deeper on it and just but I'm not afraid to ask a question. I'll go sometimes and I you know, I may play it back on me. I may go, you know, sometimes I struggle with getting pissed off about stuff. What about you? And see see if he what he says, you know? I mean or whatever it is, uh you know, that you want to use. Or you know, when I was in my twenties I had trouble getting to work on time. You ever struggle with that?

You know, that kind of thing. Or or whatever it is you're wondering about. I sometimes just straight up freaking ask, in other words. But um yeah, I I It's one of the reasons that you need to do uh multiple interviews to hire people, even in a small company like yours, it's just mandatory because you can't just sit down with somebody one time. You only get what they want you to get in a one-time interview.

But if you do multiple times, it's harder for them to keep the show going and the real them starts to leak through. And if the real them's good, that's awesome for it to leak through. I'd rather it leak through.

But if the real them's got some problems, then there we go. And of course you do background checks for uh criminal and drug use and all that kind of crap, you know. Um, we do that anyway, just as a matter of course. Um, but but Hopefully I'm gonna find something out about that long time before we actually get to uh a multiple interview situation or a high. But um

That's a cool question. It is a difficult thing to do, Joel. That's why I spent a little time with you on it. I it's not a perfect thing, it's more art than science.

It's not like there's three questions you can ask and the character will all come out. No, it doesn't it doesn't work that way. It's more just hanging out, dude, getting a sense, letting God's spirit speak to you. Is this guy disturbing my spirit? Well there's a reason, you know? Do you feel like you need to take a shower after you had a meeting with him? Come on, there's a reason that feels that

Question of the day from Lara in Miami, Florida. Oh, this one's weird. Dave, I'm 86 and still running my property management company full-time. Seven employees, about three million a year. I planned to give it to my son, but he passed away unexpectedly. Yeah, cause he was like 70. Or sixty five. I mean you y your succession plan was like decades late. Wow. Of course you still have the same problem, but oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, this is so man.

I'm ready to step away, but the only grandchild who wants the business said they'd run it remotely and I don't think that works in property management. Am I forcing a bad succession plan just to keep it in the family or is it time to walk away? It's time to walk away. Yeah, you need to sell it. Or close it or whatever it is you're gonna do. Yeah. Yeah, it's um You're you're right. Property management, the very essence of it is to manage the property and remote is not the essence of that.

So I'm sorry, you can't sit on your couch and manage property. You gotta go over there and kick the tires and fix the water heater and all that crap. I mean, come on. You know that and your grandson doesn't. grandchild doesn't get that. Laura, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that's there. But yeah, that's um a case in point where Um you need to work on success everyone out there listening, you need to work on succession sooner rather than later. the more gradual the succession plan

the higher the likelihood of a sustainable plan. The company sustains after the person. more gradual. And and so and you need to start it a long, long time before Laura did. Uh like a long, long, long, long time before Laura did. Ours is almost complete and I'm sixty five. Just to give you an idea. Okay. I'm still on a microphone, but I'm only running about ten to twenty percent of the business. My son Daniel runs Ramsey Solutions. He's the president, I'm the CEO.

Okay. And that's been a sixteen year process. We started that when I was forty eight. Okay. So um uh to begin to figure out who's gonna sit in the seat, put the person in the seat, make sure they're capable in the seat, all that process has been over that long period of time. It's very, very, very, very gradual. And it's very, very, very successful too.

It's one of the things we've found is we've studied uh best practices in family businesses handing off stuff. The more gradual the succession plan, the higher the likelihood of success. That's one of the principles. And so um and that's where Laura finds herself. She's really in a pinch here. I'm sorry, that's painful. It's painful that you lost your son.

weird to outlive your kid. That just feels funny. Um, it's not one of my friends lost his kid and he's like, That's just not natural. That's not how it's supposed to be, you know? And so, um Yeah, that that's that's a hard that's a hard thing to go through. And now you've got to look at going, I'm not gonna do this anymore, so I'm gonna sell it. Yeah.

But you're you're right, the writing's on the wall and that that's the corner that you're in and you're not not a lot of different things you can do with that. So hey, sorry you're facing that. Your business can't grow if you're just winging it. If you want to scale with confidence, you gotta have a plan. That's why my team is offering you a free 30-minute call where we'll look at your business, identify what's keeping you stuck.

And help you figure out what your next step is. Go to entree leadership.com slash consult and fill out the form to schedule your free call or just click the link in the show notes.

Bobby's in Sacramento. Hey Bobby, how are ya? Blessed, dude. Truly blessed. How are you? Just the same. How can I help? Well first I'd like to give you a little quick background. I'm uh twenty nine years old, second generation. I own a third of a construction company with my father and mother. We have six team members, two that are part time.

And we did right around one point six in revenue last year. Good for you. But my question is while respecting my father's ownership, how do we fairly structure profit and incentives in the family business? Between the three of you. Um between my father and I. My mother's a silent partner. She's uh riding in the same boat as my father. Okay. Well, there's a lot of ways to do it. I mean, you could do whatever you wanted to do. How did you end up with your one third?

Uh so I started working with my father when I was eighteen. Um, as young men do, we kinda butted heads a little bit, went out and started my own business. Um did about seven, eight hundred thousand in revenue. I had two guys on. He was diagnosed with cancer, wanted me to fall in and help with the business. He said he'd give me a third of the business. Um he'd do profit sharing. and uh give me X amount hourly. So I I distributed my guys to local contractors that I knew and trusted.

and fell in with him and my father was blessed to get everything cut out and recovered and uh now he's back to his uh old self. Okay. Is he following through on what he said? He pays you an hourly rate plus profit sharing? on the hourly. I have never seen any profit sharing yet. I've brought it to his attention, but I'm trying to be a good steward and understand how to respect my father and go about

Asking for a piece of the pie when he's built this pie for the last forty years. So I'm not sure. Did he not give you a third or not? He did give me a third. You don't have to ask for a piece of pie. You have a piece of the pie. Well, when it comes to the profit sharing part, they're there. What's the point of ownership if you don't get one third of the profit? I'm almost 30 years old and I've uh

I've looked down my path and trying to understand what I'm going to do. I've come to this this junction of where do I know when to get out? Or should I approach this in a different manner? Have I Yeah. Okay, so I g I guess you could sit down and say this. Um, Dad, um I don't know where we're going forward from here and we're gonna have to talk about Because you've built a good business here and you had a health problem, you asked me to come over and help, and I've come over and helped.

And um is it is it time for me to go back out and do my own thing again? Um, or are you looking at transferring this over to me? And in the meantime, I thought I understood I had a third of the business and I don't understand why I don't get a third of the profits with a third of the business. And I I'm gonna have to understand a couple of these things, Dad. So if it just was you needed me to come help for a while and now you don't need me, then we can talk about that. That's okay.

Um, I love you. You're still my dad. And uh but and I'm I'm glad I was able to come over here and help you during this time. But if you don't if you don't you know, if we don't if we're not gonna go forward with this and you're not gonna distribute my share of the profits to me then we're gonna have to talk about doing something else. So what is it what is it you wanna do, Dad? That's not dishonoring. That's not dishonoring. It's ask him what he wants to do.

Yeah. Because you know, I you know, and then you can circle back around and the essence of the you don't have to be blunt or mean about it, but the essence of it is that you should be getting one third of the profits if you have one third of the ownership. Do you think one third is a proper amount? How do you think that's a good idea? It's what you agreed to that measurement. He said, Come back, help me, I'll give you a third and an hourly. You said okay.

Right? Yeah, well I was running his business while he was in the hospital with my guys out of my pocket for a while, so that's what he he presented. Yeah. And and um but I mean that that's what you agreed to. Now, if you want to change that deal and say, Okay, the I got I have one third, that's what we've agreed to. Did you uh d was that ever written down?

Yes. Okay. Then uh then you say okay, and then our next stage is for us to start talking about how I end up buying the r buying you out of the rest of it long term. It doesn't have to be today, but I I want to kind of have a game plan here where I end up with this when you're gone. I don't want to have mom as a partner like

Dave, I think he's kinda cut from the same cloth as you. Uh he sure enjoys his business and being uh beneficial to others and his community. So how old is Frank? I don't sixty four. Okay. Well I mean at what point is he not gonna do this anymore?

I think he's gonna go till he dies, Dave. Well you need to ask him. That's what he says. Okay. So you you're not gonna ever be the owner. He's gonna be eight like the last guy I was just reading the thing, eighty six years old and you're gonna be sixty five.

And that's what I'm worried about. So Well if that you know I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to him about that. I'm gonna say, Listen that, I don't have any desire to be here owning one third at sixty five and you be eighty six still working here, running So if that's our plan, then we need to change the plan. Cause I'm not gonna do that. Okay. That's what you're saying.

And I I wouldn't blame you. I don't think that's healthy for the company. I don't think it's healthy for your dad. I don't think it's healthy for you. So I think you all need some kind of a plan where he gradually and I don't care if he hangs around and works. But where he's no longer running the dad gum thing. He does not need to be running it just because he's still sucking air. You know, that's not right. I'm not I don't need to be running this at eighty six.

It's not fair to my kids. It's not fair to the business. It's not fair to my customers. It's not fair to anybody. The only that's just selfish on my part to do that. I could do it. I'd want to do it. I am cut from that cloth, but I'm also cut from a different piece of cloth that says I'm not gonna do that because it's not good for the things I love.

Okay. And so, yeah, Dad, this is not good for anybody but you. And so, you know, if you're gonna do that, then that's fine. You can run your business until you drop. But I'm gonna go start mine again. And um and the next time there's a problem, I'm gonna coach you and cheer for you, but I'm not coming back over here.

Okay. You know, and th this is we we're we're this is our last shot at this and so it's okay. I'm not mad about it, but honey, if this is what we're gonna do, this is what we're gonna do. And if he says, Yeah, I'm just gonna work'til I die and you just have to deal with it Well, I'm dealing with it, so uh I'll just go start gathering my crew back up and get my own thing going again.

And if that's if he does that, I don't think he's gonna do that if you ask these questions a lot. Just ask the questions a very calm way, in in a very quiet setting, private setting, not a bunch of people around. Your mother's not in his ear, none of that. You're just the two guys sitting here talking about father and son, what we're gonna do. And man to man, monoe mono, you know, and let's just figure this thing out, right?

And and you you can get there. There's a lot of places you can get with that. So um I You know, sometimes he may say, I'm just gonna work till I die, but it's because he hasn't figured out a way to not do that. And maybe that's it. Or I want to be useful. And maybe you're saying that. That's okay. I want you to be useful. I don't mind you working, but I'm going to own this and make every decision until I'm gone. No, I'm not staying.

That that would be my that'd be the drop dead on that. So you you you know but you need clarity. You can't just assume what's in his brain without dragging it out of his brain by having a conversation. That's what we're doing. Hey folks, by the way, if you do have a question and you want to be on this show, you can do it by going to entreeleadership.com.

slash ask and you can call us at 844-944-1070. And if you would help us out by following the show, subscribing to the show, leaving a review, and sharing the show with a friend. Sharing. It's good. You gotta do it. It's a good thing. Back to kindergarten, remember? Tell people about us, people. We need the help. You're our only marketing hope.

Yeah, please jump in there and do that. And folks, remember better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high quality leaders. So take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for joining us on Entree Leadership.