The 5 Step Framework for Addressing Difficult Employees

We've talked before about how to have hard conversations as a leader, but not every tough talk is the same. So today we're breaking down the five types of hard conversations. And how to approach the One with clarity and confidence. Because when you know which type of conversation to have and when, it helps you communicate the problem clearly. Keep your team on the same page and make those tough moments. Ramsey's chief technology officer, Brendan Wojko, joins Entree Leadership

Falkins to share some practical ways to handle these moments well. So you can lead your forward instead of avoiding the tension. So Brendan, we've talked a lot about how to have a difficult conversation and we've got resources on that. So if people want that, they can they can click the link in the show notes. But Today we really want to get into the different types So

Could you help us unpack what those different types are? Yeah, yeah. Usually when people ask me about uncomfortable conversations, it's all about like how to have them, like how to you know how to have a successful uncomfortable conversation. And the reality is that there's not just one. What I found is there's five distinct

kind of uncomfortable conversations. The first one is what we call first contact. The first time you actually address a problem with someone, right? And in that conversation, like I mean the biggest thing is just to make sure that you really clearly state the problem in a way that they understand what the problem is. Okay. You know, I always joke around and say, like, your articulation of the problem should be so clear, like your fourth grade

You know, English teachers should be proud of you, you know? Uh the reading level should be a low the reading level should be low and the statement should be really short. Okay. And it should be about observed behavior. Like

John, I see that you've been showing up late to work and that's not okay. Yeah, this is getting personal fast. Right. Yeah. I mean it's uh you you want to be really clear on the problem. The second part of it, you wanna make sure that they're really clear about the process you're gonna walk out next. Okay.

having uncomfortable conversations the right way when you sit down with somebody and you kind of like swoop and poop. Like if if you you know if you swoop into the situation, you kind of drop a problem on their lap and then you're gone. That's not a productive, uncomfortable conversation because the the person if they just become problem aware, it doesn't mean that they know what to do. It doesn't mean that they're gonna get the coaching they need.

It doesn't mean that the problem's actually gonna get fixed. All it means is you dropped a ten ten ton, you know, concrete block on'em, which is you got a problem. And so in that first contact conversation, we want to make sure that we really clarify the problem and we wanna Help them understand like what happens next. Okay. And usually in that conversation, I'll I'll say to people like

Listen, we're we're gonna walk through a series of like coaching conversations. Cause it's it's great that in this conversation, this first contact conversation, that we've made the problem clear. Yeah. But I'm actually gonna separate the coaching. to a different time. And the reason for that is because like

People just get into like an overload. You generally want to keep these conversations short because if you load in too much at one time, they're simply they're gonna go to fight or flight and they're not gonna remember. Yeah, they're not reading that stuff.

So, you know, that first contact conversation is what's the problem? What are we gonna do next? Then we walk into that second kind of uncomfortable conversation, which is coaching. And the whole point is we wanna reiterate the problem, but we also want to give the person tools about how they can fix it. The number one mistake that leaders make in coaching conversations is they make the conversations unnecessarily adversarial. Okay. And here's what I mean.

It's really easy as a leader to kind of put yourself in the situation where it's like me versus you. Yeah. Like you've done something wrong and now you gotta meet my expectations. Right. And that might actually be ultimately true. The reality is it's like you actually have to have uh help the person understand one, how people around them are experiencing them. Right? Because if I'm just saying how I'm experiencing you, it's almost

immediately a me versus you thing. Yeah, I'm just curious if it if it if you've ever seen this where the leader might do everything really well in that setting to not set it up me versus you. But the person has got a lot of experiences where regardless of what the leader has done, yeah, that's how they're coming into it. Is that fair? Yeah, it's totally fair. Okay. So there there's two things I do in this coaching conversation that are not off.

The first thing is I actually want to go to other leaders and I want to number one check to make sure that they've all experienced that kind of same problem that I'm addressing and then get some of their feedback. What why do you do that? Well, because really it really melts down the me versus you. Now now more of what it's about is

Hey, this is me helping guide you through the resolution of this problem. Okay. Right. And if you're working with somebody that reminds you of the kid that beat you up on the playground at school. All of a sudden you know, like again, this is getting very personal right now. But yeah, it it it it is good for that reason too to kind of get that collective wisdom from a group of people, right? You you get that and I bring that into the uncomfortable conversation. I'll say like, hey this

There is a a behavior that I'm seeing, but hey, it's just n it's not just me. It's a couple of us that are seeing this. Yeah. And by the way, when I say a coaching conversation, there's not typically one of them. Okay. Like you have to coach somebody through the behavior.

That's a problem. Right. And so I can't tell you exactly whether you should have three coaching conversations with somebody or thirty three convers like it's it's a little dependent on the circumstances, severity of the thing. Yeah. And better receptivity, right? Right. Later receptivity. But I will say like if I had to pick between three and thirty, it'd be a whole lot closer to three. Right. I don't wanna be having like

Unending, you know, coaching conversations with somebody. But the other thing in the coaching conversation that's really critically important, you got to really tell them where you stand. And so I I use this thing called the table metaphor. What I would actually say to the person is.

John, you and I are on the same side of the table and this problem that you're having is on the other side. And my role is to coach you in such a way where we can get rid of that problem and we can go back to the way that we all want things, which is things are just flowing and and going normally. Right. But I'm gonna ask you to do two things.

I need you to share my urgency and apply my coaching. But if at any point we kind of get off track with you either not sharing my urgency or applying my coaching, yeah, I'm gonna be forced to to reevaluate where I am at the table. Gotcha. And I don't want to go to the other side of the table.

But I think we both know that if I go to the other side of the table what that means and we both don't want that. Again, the coaching conversation is I like to bring in the feedback of other leaders and have that table uh put that table metaphor in place. So that the person that you're talking to actually understands like I'm actually working for you against this problem unless your re receptivity or your action really drops and then I'm gonna have to get on the other side of the team.

So you're having this coaching conversation, right? That's the second type of conversation. Yeah. And you said they gotta share the urgency and they gotta apply the coaching.

What happens if if they don't do that? Yeah, because sometimes that h happens. Hopefully you clean the situation up and no big deal. But if you got to escalate it farther, the next thing is something called an emotional fire. Okay, talking about it. Which sounds like super intense. Yeah. Right. It's actually just giving the person the last opportunity to turn the situation around before their job's actually on the line. Okay.

And so, you know, somebody will come in, they'll think that like, okay, we're going for our fifth or third, you know, coaching conversation. Right. Right. I gotta reset their expectations. Bouncing along like this is the status quo. Right. And so, you know, I'll I'll say to the person like Hey listen, I feel like you're you're either not sharing my urgency or not applying my coaching.

And I I just need you to understand like the heat on this situation is turning up. Yeah. You know, and usually in that first contact conversation I will have also put some timing Around this situation. Right. So let's say we set the expectation like, hey, this behavior needs to change in 30 days. Well hey, you know, John, we're at we're at day twenty five.

We've had like three coaching conversations. We had an initial conversation. We're working things through. I feel like you're not sharing my urgency. You're not playing my coaching. Right. I just need to let you know that. We're now in a situation where I'm moving to the like I'm I'm considering moving to the other side of the the table. Right. And like your job might actually be on the line. Okay. Right?

And so there are some choices that we need to make. Now let me just say you say those words. That those alarm bells are gonna go off in a person's head, right? And isn't that what you're trying to do? I mean not manipulatively but You want them to understand how serious they need to understand like this is a last ditch effort to save this situation. And they should feel that. And they should feel it. Now I will say

that if you start to see somebody space out and you can you can tell, right? They'll start to get a little disassociated or they'll start getting emotional. By the way, if somebody cries, that's fine. Like people are allowed to cry. People are allowed to have emotions. Right. The thing that you've got to help them with in the moment is If the emotion gets to the point where they can no longer hear you. then you've got to kinda like step into that.

Got situation in the moment and get them back to a place where they can hear you. So the trick for that is if you if you start to see somebody's like emotions get to the point where they can't uh hear you, the key phrase is remind them of their their need for dignity. Okay. So if they start to get overwhelmed, the thing that I found is if I just say to them like, Hey John, I know this is a serious conversation.

Um, I I know it can be scary. Yeah. And listen, emotions are totally okay. Yeah. But when you and I both look back at this conversation a year from now, what I know is both you and I want to remember it as a dignified moment. Yeah. And there's something that when you say that to somebody, it allows them to just kind of collect themselves and kind of snap right back into things. Like

99 out of 100 times that little phrase works. And if it doesn't, then you gotta give the conversation maybe a little space. But usually it works. And so what you're really trying to help the person understand this emotional firing is like this is a last ditch effort to kind of fix this situation. And so you're gonna give them two options.

Okay. You know, you're gonna say you need to make a choice between continuing to try to save your job or call an uncle, right? Calling it quick. I don't blame you either one that you wanna pick. Right. Right. But listen, if you decide that you want to Try to save your job. I need you to understand we're moving out of the the kind of the realm of coaching. Right. And we're gonna write some things down on paper. We're gonna give you a a

A written plan, a 30, 60, 90 day plan, whatever is right for the situation. You know, let's say a 30 in this situation. I'm gonna give you a 30-day written performance plan. And here's what I need you to hear. It is a zero wiggle room plant. You gotta do zero wiggle room. Right. It's a do or don't. There is no gray area. There is no kind of. Right. Right. And I gotta be honest with you, we've been having three or four of these coaching conversations.

And I really think that if this change was gonna happen, it would've happened already. Yeah. By virtue of the fact that we're having this level of a conversation. I really think you should strongly consider option B, which is tapping out, right? But I'm gonna respect whatever decision you make. Yeah. Right.

And at this point I'll ask the person to like actually go home. I I want them to get out of the office. Right. I'll tell'em, listen, find some people in your life you trust, talk to your spouse, talk to a friend, talk to a pastor, whatever you need to do, share with them the situation and like

kind of co-author that decision with somebody that you trust, right? And tomorrow morning we're gonna sit down first thing and I wanna hear what your choice is. Stick with it or tap out. Gotcha. Right. Conversation over. Okay. We get back again in the morning, they're gonna pick their path. Okay. Right.

So they come back, they say, I want to fight for my job. What what do you need to be prepared with at at that point? Right. So I've already got that performance plan written down. We're gonna talk about it. But before we actually walk through the plan, I want to remind him: like, look, I I respect the decision that you made that you want to try to save your job, and you need to understand that.

Based on our prior history, I have a very low confidence that this is actually gonna work out. Why is it that sounds negative, Brandon? Like, why why do you have to say that to him? Well, because All I'm doing is just telling them what I've already experienced. Okay. You don't ever want to walk into a termination conversation and people are like, what?

Okay. You know, and like this is the moment. Like that's why we call it an emotional firing. Yeah, yeah. Is because it's it's intense. Yeah. You know, like, but I want them to know where things stand. So even when they make the choice.

Of the performance plan, I'm gonna reiterate. Great, I'm prepared. I respect your decision. I've showed up with the plan, but I just wanna reiterate, I don't think that we're gonna be able to successfully do this, but I'm willing to walk it out. Then we're actually gonna walk through the plan. The important thing, the thing that you gotta say, zero This is not a negotiation because the number of times that somebody will get a little bit of a

through a a plan and they'll be like, well, I did most of it. Sorry, dude. Like it this is a scenario the scenario that you've put yourself in is an all or nothing situation, not the scenario I put you in. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, other important tip.

for performance plans. If you pick 30 days, a performance plan doesn't have to last 30 days. Like if if they're if they're not sharing your urgency and they're not applying your coaching, they're not doing what's on the written plan, we're done. We're done. 12 days in, eight days in. Two days in yeah doesn't matter, we can be done. Yeah, right. Yeah. Um and it's not waste time. And you typically want to put that in writing.

in the plan. Okay. Right? That uh uh the performance plan can be cut short at any time. Right. Okay. So let's just uh pretend that we've okay, we've gone through this whole thing, this this uh thirty day performance plan. It hasn't worked out. I don't know whether we're ending this at day twelve or day thirty, whatever it is. But no matter when we end it, it's gonna end the same way. Right. So we

We sit down and here's the thing. Because we've done all of this work, we've done the first contact, we've done the coaching, we've done the emotional firing, we've done the performance improvement plan. Right. There is a a ton, a metric ton of clarity for this person about

What is wrong and what their performance is. We've gotten the feedback of other leaders. You know, we've been very clear about where we stand with the table metaphor, all this stuff. On one hand, to me, that creates a ton of clarity for the person.

But as a leader, that's a really good insurance policy. At the end of the day, I know I've done everything I could to help this person. You can go home with confidence that you tried everything you could and you can actually s sleep when you go home tonight because there's nothing worse.

You feel like there's something else that could have been done. You don't you don't want to w live with that weight as a leader and you want to serve people well ultimately. But when it actually comes down to a termination, here's the thing you got to know. Because of all that context, because of all the setup, because of all the time investment we put into things.

A termination does not need to be long. You would be stunned how short it can actually be. Right? And say, John, we have had, you know, six or seven conversations up to this point. I feel like I've been articulating a very specific problem to you for the last 30 days. And I've given you plenty of opportunity and and plenty of clarity around what needs to change in order for you to continue to be with the company. But the decision has been made that today's gonna be your last day.

What everybody needs to hear is that phrase, the decision has been made, is the one sentence. be included in a termination conversation. Okay. One, because it helps bring finality to the person. Yeah. But you would be stunned how many people walk through a termination.

And don't actually realize they've been terminated. Okay. It's because leaders get real shifty and they get nervous and they and they don't feel they feel like it's an undignified thing to say you're fired. Yeah. Right. Which it is kind of an undignified thing. Right. It's that's why I say

the decision's been made that today's your last day. Like I said, it's important because it gives clarity. But the other thing is there is a certain percentage of personalities that will immedi immediately begin negotiating. Yeah. They'll say, well, can I have a different job? Yeah. Or can I have a different set of responsibilities or whatever. And at that point, all you have to do is just repeat.

The decision's been made. Today's gonna be your last day. Yeah. It's o it's over. Yeah. And so really a termination conversation Honestly, if it's gone much longer than three minutes, it's too long. Okay. Now, I'll also say in a termination conversation, I'll usually have a buddy with me. I I call him the wingman. Right. Right. And so I'll deliver the hard news and then I'll usually exit the conversation'cause at this point I'm kind of the bad guy. Right. Right.

And I'll leave the room and then I'll let my wingman kinda deal with the details. Okay. Like Hey, I need your your key fob or I need the the you know the keys to the truck. Yeah, the logistics the logistics of it. You know, hey, I want to let you know that your access to company email's been terminated, talk to you about medical insurance. You know, like um if there's any severance involved, like talk through all those details. Yeah. That's really for the wingman. Okay. Um and

You do that immediately f right after the termination or I think that's really up to you in terms of the culture that you want to create inside your your company. I will tell you the way that we do it here is the the wingman basically says like, Hey, there's there's conversations we need to have about insurance and severance and what a separation between our two companies look like. Right. We're gonna schedule a follow up phone call and an opportunity for you to come visit. Okay.

Um so you know it's just like how you want to do it. Yeah. Right. But the point is is keep it dignified. And the last point there that's really important is you don't want to put people through the walk of shame. After they've been terminated. Okay. And so oftentimes I'll have some I'll I'll say to a person, you know, before I get up and leave, I'll say, Is there anything important at your at your desk that you need before?

Uh we walk together out to the parking lot. Okay. Right? Yeah. And I'll typically send somebody else to get keys or a purse or something. And I'll let'em know we're gonna schedule a time before after business hours. Yeah.

where you can come clean out your desk and not everybody's gonna be staring at you and we'll do this the right. Really still protecting their dignity. Yeah. Because I mean uh it's unfortunate that it ended this way, but we do wanna you we want to protect them and and their dignity. Yeah. I love it. So that's it. All five. That's a lot, Brandon. It's a lot. It's a lot, but I appreciate that. It's super valuable. And I do realize, just like we're saying, it's a lot. So if you want the resources.

to help you go through this, make sure you click the link in the show notes. Listen, having these conversations isn't easy, but it's where real leadership growth happens. And now you've got a strategy. to start approaching these conversations the right way. Big thanks to Brendan and John for walking us through it. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to like, share, and subscribe for more great leadership content. I'm your host, Dave Ramsey, and this is Entree Leadership.