A Conversation with Sam "Bruscavic"

Also, if you want past transcripts, you can now get the transcript library with over 100 transcripts of the show so you can improve even faster. That's Englishwithdain.com slash transcripts. Today's episode is a special one because I am talking to my friend Sam and we had a really interesting conversation about a bunch of different English learning related things. And we met recently, we hit it off, and I thought you guys would benefit a lot from talking to him.

So without further ado, here's the conversation with Sam. What's up, man? How are you doing?

So I was struggling with understanding other people, and that got me a little bit upset. But at some point when I was about 14 years old, I met this British girl from London, which is much older than me. Uh, I mean, considering I'm 22, she's like 40 something. Oh, where there's a bit of an age gap, right? And we sat at the bingo table, and I was struggling with understanding the numbers because, of course, you know, uh at school you learn English, yeah.

But but when it comes to British pronunciations or any kind of pronunciations that is more native oriented, then it's pretty hard to even understand the numbers, especially, you know, 30 and 40, if they're not pronounced correctly. You know, there's a bit of a gap there. So what happened was that this girl sat next to me and she started explaining like all the differences in the numbers. She was helping me out. And I found out that she was a teacher.

And so I would bother her, although she was on holiday. I was still a kid, you know, 13, 14 years old, very passionate about the language, very kind of into understanding everything. And and I was like, Can we do like 30 minutes a day when we sit at this very table where we first met? And you would give me some tips and stuff like that for learning the language, and she was like, Yeah, of course. And yeah, we started this sort of correspondence.

And the funny thing is that we kind of established this sort of relationship and we became friends. Now we are best friends. She lives in yeah, it's crazy. She lives in Switzerland, uh, in Zurich, and she's an English teacher.

I think she's now the like um sort of director of the school or something like this, and um, yeah, and although we are apart and we haven't seen each other for like five years, then we are still best friends and we talk every day regularly, sometimes over the phone, sometimes video call and stuff like that. And she helped me go through a lot of certifications of English. So she guided me. She's a very pedantic person, right? So yeah, very, very pedantic and very um old school kind of education.

And so uh, of course, when I was like um, I don't know, cutting up words or for instance, shortenings, abbreviations, she didn't like that. Or when I was like more American-oriented, uh, she was kind of putting me into the track of uh British English because I had several influences that were from America because from playing basketball, right? A lot of American people, I played with a lot of American dudes and from all over America. I had a I played with a center from Portland, I think.

Yeah, it was Portland, and then another guy that played at Clemson University, uh, but uh moved, yeah, she's a he's originally from London, but then he moved to America. So he had this sort of mix, right? And then I I've done so many like English schools, campuses, and stuff like that, and a lot of mixtures of accents and different pronunciations of any sort. And yeah, one of my best friends from America is a Californian guy, which I play uh who I played with. So a masage of accents, really.

So she kind of uh trying to put me in the right track, although I had a lot of influences. So that's one thing I like to clarify to people that uh deal with my character. Like um, I didn't pick my accent, it was the natural result of my life, it was the natural result of my path, like what I went through. No accent is better than others.

It's just that I went through this sort of process, and that led me to have like a more, let's call it, even if I don't like the expression, authentic, more native-like accent. But it's not like I decided to do that. Yeah, you I had this obsession about like mastering and and native-like fluency so that I could kind of camouflage my accent and prank people that I wasn't Italian and stuff like that, because that's cool stuff to do, right? We all like it.

But then when I started when I started learning English from a sort of um like scholarly perspective, and when I first got into English as a lingua franca and the concept of world Englishes, then my perspective changed. And I don't put a lot of importance uh to um to to accent that I used to.

Um, I grew up, I'm from Peru originally, but when we were when I was five years old, we moved to the United States and I was just put in a public school and we lived there for 10 years, and my life was in English. So as a kid, you just pick up the accent, of course, all that stuff. And then when once I moved to Spain, I went to an international school where we all spoke English, but it's like a Dutch guy speaking English, an Australian girl, a guy from Israel, a guy.

So it just became this crazy mash of accents. And then I'll speak to someone from the UK and they'll say, Oh, what part of the states are you from? And I go, Oh, yeah. And then when I speak to an American person, they're like, Whoa, what's happening here? Why is your English so good? So, but they don't think I'm from the US. So it's like this this weird in-between and and that international English that you're talking about, that world English.

Um, yeah, I think it's just it's just taking over, right? Because as it expands more, as people have more access to education, more access to English learning tools, more more situations like yours, for example. Um, which by the way, that sounds like that sounds like a movie. That's like an independent movie, right? Oh my god, yeah. Young kid meets.

And uh some people were like, of course, it was still at the beginning. Some people were like, Oh, but where is it that you're from? I cannot understand what you're from, right?

Um so at Green School Verona is a very good school of English. And um, yeah, one of the one of my colleagues, she's from I think Southeast Midlands, which is like basically I think where the RP comes from, if I'm not mistaken, the standard pronunciation. And and she was like, uh, whoa, your accent is pretty much like mine, you know. And I was like, Oh, thank you very much.

You know, this so what I what I always tell people is, yeah, I had a lot of influences from abroad from native speakers, but I already knew the language before I went to the UK. So you don't have to necessarily go abroad in order to uh to learn the language at a certain level, you can bring the language towards you. We are in the 21st century and you have so many tools at your disposal that you can take chunks of information and bring it to you instead of you necessarily going there.

And so people, when they look at my curriculum or they look at my personal information, right? They are like, oh yeah, but you lived in the in the UK for a year. That didn't change much. I mean, yeah, I learned some typical expression of the place, I learned how to pronounce a word like more accurately from their perspective, and I underlined from their perspective, uh, but it wasn't because of that that I learned the language, it wasn't the year abroad.

So for all those people that think that is it it's essential, I would just say it's a good, very, very good addition, like everything that you do in your life, but it's not necessarily essential for you to learn the language.

I think when people talk about, oh, it's because you lived here for two years or you went here, it's they're kind of also talking about, oh, you you forced yourself to be in this environment in which you couldn't not speak. So you just like did like that immersion type, like you were just throwing, you threw yourself in, you had like the foresight to say, hey, I'm gonna go here because it's gonna be good in general, um, it's gonna be productive.

And then they kind of um you dove in, and I think a lot of people struggle with that. And also, um, to touch on what you said before, you were curious about the language, you know, you were frustrated with it, you were curious, you had that natural thing of like, ah, I don't know this and I want to know this. And I think that's the healthiest perspective, the healthiest advice you can give to someone is that curiosity that you feel.

Don't like, don't attack it from the perspective of, oh, I need to improve my English because what job in the world? No, just let that go and just be genuinely curious about the language, just be genuinely curious. And then you what you're saying, bring that to you, where it's sports, whether it's music, whether it's if you want to plan because you have all the tools for doing that.

And then when you're about to give up, it almost sounds like a motivational speech, but it's not. I'm saying, you know, you won that, you have to prove that you won that. A lot of people are like, Oh, yeah, I want to speak the language. I wish I spoke the language so well as you do, or so well, uh, what is it, a certain level? And some people are like, I I I wish I reached that level of fluency and stuff like that. You know, you you wish, you know, you can do it. What is that?

Yeah, what is that? You you go out there and you do it. If you don't do it, then it means that your motivation isn't strong enough for you to obtain that. You have to want it. If you don't want it a lot, don't just say, I wish, I wish, I wish, because you know, life are you life is yours, right?

But when it comes to like language is so complex, you know, you can be awesome at grammar and then terrible at actual communication. You can have, you know, all the expressions, but you don't know how to conjugate verbs, you know a lot of vocabulary, but you like you can be lacking in other in other areas, right? Um, what's your what's your opinion of of like levels in general, how they're divided, if it's actually relevant to a certain extent.

Although within that certification, you have the percentage of what you scored for that particular skill, for instance, reading in use of English, grammar, vocabulary, and speaking and listening, how can you break it down so in a in so in such a simplistic way? Like it's not just four skills, there is sub-skills within that skills, and maybe you're good at listening, but you're not at comprehending, you're good at the level of intelligibility.

So you maybe understand each and every word that the listen that the speaker is saying, but then it doesn't make sense to you because it lacked on vocabulary. And what is that? A problem of listening or a problem of vocabulary? Is a problem of you know, understanding or comprehension? Like, how can you categorize it?

So, in my opinion, you know, the goal shouldn't be to reach a level, but rather to reach successful communication, because that's language is about, and that's why I like so that I like the methods that are more towards learning the language in order to speak, as opposed to learning the language correctly. And then we could open another argument about this. Of course, it is important to learn the language correctly and everything, but what is it your priority? Are you a traveler?

Are you going abroad and just want to communicate with other people? Then that's your goal, and your goal is to communicate. Don't bother about making mistakes too much. It will come naturally by the time that you cultivate that passion that you have, you'll stop making mistakes. So don't worry too much about it. Are you an academic? Are you a scholar?

Are you studying English at a certain level that you have to write things about it, you know, and you have to literally make essays and thesis and uh, you know, papers, basically. Then you have to have a certain level of the language because that's what academia requires, right? So it depends on your needs. That's the point of what I'm saying right now. You can't be like, oh, okay, I need this to enter this job and I did, and I need this level.

No, you should, you know, learn what you need for that job. It depends on the target that you have. How are you going to use the language? How are you going to use the language? Why you're going to use the language? And then once you set the goals, then you understand how to what you want the language to be for you, and then you start learning the language.

But without a clear goal, if your goal is to, you know, pass a third certification, then we're going to go through that process because you need that. But if your goal is something else, like simply learning English, there's no point for me to go to some Cambridge or um, you know, Trinity School and take a certification just for the sake of having a certification. I don't need that, right? I can invest my money better. Like, I'm not discrediting those kind of institutions.

I uh highly esteem them, but for a specific purpose, not for everything.

Are you an athlete? Are you a basketball player? Do you want explosive athleticism? Do you want to just get stronger, bigger muscles for vanity? So that every single approach requires a different focus, a different plan of action, and ultimately a different result, all within the fitness framework, just like the English one. You know, so it's I I always liken it to that. And just like you, if you sign up to the gym, that does nothing.

You have to go every day and again prove that you want to change.

You know, of course you're gonna have different interests, but it depends on what you prioritize. So I go on holiday, right? But I bring my laptop. I'm on holiday right now, but I have my Jane Austen's book for writing my thesis, and I allocate those hours in for doing that, and then I allocate two hours for going to the gym, and then I allocate one hour for this lovely podcast.

Because, you know, although I am traveling the world, because that's just a passion that I have traveling around, you know, move around. I'm an aquarium, uh Aquarius or Aquarium, that's a zodiac sign, I don't remember. Uh basically, yeah, Aquarius. And and you know, I like I'm a bit inconstant, right? So I like to move around and stuff like that. But that doesn't stop me from my goals. So I bring the work with me, and then I keep working, although I want some pleasure time.

So it's all about, I think, organization, first of all. And you know, you have your deadlines, you have your things that you have to do, and the pleasure of doing something else should not get you far away from your goals. You should always have those in mind and then have that aside. But if you organize properly, you can do everything. That's what I that's what I'm saying.

And over time, it's not you're you forcing yourself, it's you actually just doing it and it becomes a part of your day, a part of your team. So find it's uncomfortable, you know. A lot of things are uncomfortable, but once you get used to them, they don't just become not as uncomfortable, but they actually just become part of who you are, right? Whatever you do in your routine just starts to seep in through the pores and everything and just becomes it, just becomes who you are.

Let me ask you something. Um, what was your exposure to English like in school? Because I mean, at least here in Spain, you know, things are changing slowly, but there's always been this kind of um archaic or old approach to English learning, you know, like here are the verbs, this is how you conjugate these verbs, here are some sentences with the verbs, memorize these verbs. How do you how do you think or what do you what do you do? Let's say something that's different to that.

How do you think we can amend that? And and what was your experience with with English at school?

Because I mean I'm talking about pretty basic stuff that falls under the I mean, it's sad to talk about categories, but we're talking about yeah, elementary uh or starters, basically, for those who start the language. But you know, it's not in my opinion, that's not the way to do it. Um unfortunately, and that connects with your previous question. Um, that's one of the reasons why I started teaching English, which I didn't respond before, but I'm not now gonna connect to.

I haven't forgotten about that. So basically, um, you know, I I see the struggle of a lot of teachers to make the English language be loved, right? And uh, you know, they just do their job, they get paid, and blah, blah, blah. Now, I don't want to go against the school, because the school in general, because it depends. I I think it's a very individual thing, okay? There are a lot of teachers that I loved. I literally loved uh one teacher that I had in Traponi, uh, my professoressa bandiera.

She's a very good teacher. She would do a lot of activities that would help you with breakdown songs and stuff like that. More of an interactive approach, more of a student-centered approach. That was very good. But there were other teachers that didn't share that passion for the language with me. And so, unfortunately, the vast majority of teachers all over Italy is following this kind of path.

And I it's not me that says that, but there's like a very important problem in Italy, because the general level of people that are not interested in the language, they're just relying on school, is no good. And you can see this difference from a lot of people that tell me, okay, I studied English on my own, and then I'm very good at it. And then those people who didn't actually put the extra effort in at it as an extra curricular effort, then they didn't really master the language so well.

And you can compare that with other countries that are instead very good. Take, for example, the Netherlands. We're talking about the Dutch English in the Netherlands. So something that developed in these recent years. I study in the Netherlands, so I know, right, that there is this uh sort of kind of variety of English that is emerging through the Netherlands because they're so good at it so that they they cannot be considered uh uh it cannot be considered a foreign language anymore.

And there's also a lot of Scandinavian countries that are very good and have a very solid reputation in learning English, you know. So there are those countries that from school only, through school only, they have uh the vast majority of the populations that speak English properly. And so by this comparison, I assume, and not without any kind of uh support or uh theoretical background and stats, that the situation in Italy is kind of problematic.

And so, what I'm trying to do with this social media stuff, both on Instagram and on TikTok, is I'm trying to make the language fun and help the level of English. And it's so satisfying when you go around, and that's why you also travel a lot, and you see people stopping you on the street and be like, Oh, are you the guy that teaches English on TikTok? Yeah, maybe I have a weird nickname, right? I have a very weird nickname. So people are just like, Are you the guy?

But I don't care that they don't recognize my Bruskovich 08 name. I don't, I don't care about that. I care about that. They come to me and they're like, Oh, you're so useful. You're you're so useful to me, and that's very good. So I don't mind about popularity and bullshit like that, you know. I sorry for the for the word, but basically I like free podcasts here, bro.

That's very good because that means that my mission of going all around and teaching English, although slowly and gradually and with little tips, is actually improving the situation. And of course, by the time I grow and I I have new initiatives, I'm trying to make this sort of thing stronger and stronger to kind of increase the level of English in Italy in general.

I know he's ambitious, but that's what I'm trying to do, of course, with a lot of people that are trying to do the same, and that kind of seemed to work. So I'm taking the wave literally of that. And to go with that, I'm trying to do my part, albeit small, to do this. So, yeah, there is something that needs to be improved in the educational system in Italy. I don't know what that is, but it there needs to be something, and of course, that's uh individual.

Okay, I'm not talking about all schools, um, I'm not talking about all institutions, and I'm not talking about all teachers. It's highly subjective as well, and it's highly individual, but there is a gap in in Italy. There is a a gap that needs to be filled, and that's a matter of fact, and you cannot deny it.

Like people in their 50s and 60s are less likely to know to know have good English, kids growing up now with all like the tools being so connected, all that stuff, all the cliches, and like we're all so connected now, so exposed to the language. Like and we to the point where at least here in Spain, like younger generations adopt words um that are just in English because of like the TikTok social Instagram, just whole world. Like a great example. Yeah, a great example.

One is right, the word cringe in English. Spanish kids would be like, ah, que cringe and you're like, Whoa, you're like a a 15-year-old who knows the word cringe, which is quite specific.

He's good outside because he plays a lot of video games, he talks with uh he talks to other people uh in English, and he watches a lot of content on YouTube in English, and then he brings that knowledge into school and he's very good at it. So it's almost like this generational change or swap or shift that you mentioned, right? Is almost the other way around of what it was like in the 50s and in the 60s.

Now, there is not that you are kind of implementing, at least I'm talking about Italy from my perspective, implementing uh that kind of knowledge from school to other mediums, right? Or media, yeah, to other mediums like uh internet and stuff like that, but it's the other way around. People actually learn the language through internet, which is the thing that they most interact with, and then they bring it into school. So that's exactly what the the revolution is. The the the the shift is huge.

And um, yeah, especially when the the English at school is not taught like necessarily in an exhaustive way, then uh, of course, people take advantage of that and they the their first source of English becomes the internet. Maybe in Scandinavian countries, it's not gonna be the same because you know they have hours and hours of English at school, and so that's gonna be the predominant institution for that.

But when it comes to other countries that maybe don't put that much effort in learning the language or in teaching the language, then what where people are people gonna rely on? Internet, which is the main source, because as you said, we leave in a globalized word and everybody's connected and everybody needs to communicate with everybody and understanding everybody.

And that's something that I uh researched on as well, and it's very interesting, you know, that the American English in general is the while like the British, even though it's been kind of uh put side to side with American, is basically the language of the school now. These are the two varieties, but originally the British English was like the most kind of you know the the language considered to be the superior language and blah blah blah, especially for schools and stuff like that.

And so that's the language of institutions, but there's no debate on the fact that the American English is the language of the internet, that's the standard language of the internet because the internet is an American phenomenon, right? It comes from ARPANET, and then there's all that story of uh uh the military US that needed a sort of interconnections and blah, blah, blah. And so that that's the story behind it.

But the standard language is English, and so the vast majority of contents is in English, and people who need to gather information and that we're slaves of information in the 21st century need to have more access to information. And for doing that, what do I have to do? They have to learn English because that's um where the vast majority that's basically the language of the vast majority of information is out there.

And although we have translation tools and all of that, it's still not the same because translation is relative, and the language, a language system is different from another language system, and so the translation is never going to be perfect. So all of these factors come along perfectly and beautifully together, as to explain why there is this sort of uh shift.

But if parents knew that one of the best things they could do for their kids is not to get a tutor to come and sit down and do the verbs with them, but hire someone to play video games with your kids for two hours in English, or go outside and play basketball for a cup for like an hour and just be using this actual language, like using it for what it is, as opposed to like staring at a picture of it, you know?

So, like just hire someone to play video games with your kids for an hour, go play whatever, Call of Duty, Fortnite, whatever you want to play, but do that stuff in English with someone where you have to communicate, you have to talk about what you're doing, you have to talk about what you're interested in, and that would be so successful. Man, I should start a language school that's just video games and like kids. That'll be yeah, there are theories.

They would be so excited to go to class, you know?

So you got to put the effort in to understand the other person, then that's gonna be like, Oh, what'd you say? Come again, and then paraphrasing matches the recasting, and then you have to kind of try and learn new ways to communicate that thought that you have in mind.

I don't I don't really teach like this anymore in class in like a physical classes, but I would have a game of Monopoly. We'll finish on this. I know I'm taking a bunch of your time already.

So they have to say, Monopoly is a game in which the goal is to buy properties and make the other players go bankrupt via this method, like you know, like an actual explanation as opposed to just, oh, this example. So it's about not just using the shortcuts, but forcing like the brain to make new connections and to take new paths, you know, especially when you're talking about children or young people in general, who's like the neuroplasticity is crazy, right?

Like kids will learn through context, not because I gave them a list of verbs. I always say adults, adults want rules and children just need context.

And so you're gonna be like, okay, now identify all of those economic uh verbs or uh vocabulary related and make a list of all those words that are belonging to the semantic field of economy or economics. Okay. Just be like, make a list, and then you're gonna have that categorization that is gonna portray what you have in your mind. And now the informations are stored and ordered in your mind properly, although you learn them inductively, if I'm not mistaken, that's the word.

So basically from the context to up to the rule, and so that that's how you basically uh learn the grammar and the vocabulary and all that boring stuff that would be bad to learn as if it was uh like a lesson where I tell you the rule right directly.

So I I used to love um teaching kids because it wouldn't be a grammar class, it would just be, hey, let's hang out for two hours, create an environment in which no one's speaking Spanish, in which we're just curious, we're talking about things. Like I've taught kids about the industrial revolution. What, like, what are we talking about? And just because one kid didn't know what it was and the other kids couldn't explain it, so I'm like, okay, let's stop the class for a moment.

Quick 15 minutes, 20 minutes about the as much as what I remember from the industrial revolution from studying it. Or like, hey, like, can you explain taxes? Taxes came up one time. Like, can you explain that? No, let's just stop for a second and explain it. And then I like to think if you can't explain something to children, you don't really know it as well as you think you know it.

So, yeah, we. Totally agree on that. We we weren't so different after all. Yeah.

Uh, hope I share something positive with you because that was the main goal.