In this episode, we’re joined by author and researcher Gene Kim for a wide-ranging conversation on the evolution of DevOps, developer experience, and the systems thinking behind organizational performance. Gene shares insights from his latest work on socio-technical systems, the role of developer platforms, and how AI is reshaping the shape of engineering teams. We also explore the coordination challenges facing modern organizations, the limits of tooling, and the deeper principles that unite De...
Apr 04, 2025•39 min•Ep. 77
In this episode, Airbnb Developer Productivity leader Anna Sulkina shares the story of how her team transformed itself and became more impactful within the organization. She starts by describing how the team previously operated, where teams were delivering but felt they needed more clarity and alignment across teams. Then, the conversation digs into the key changes they made, including reorganizing the team, clarifying team roles, defining strategy, and improving their measurement systems. Menti...
Mar 07, 2025•33 min•Ep. 75
Many teams struggle to use developer productivity data effectively because they don’t know how to use it to decide what to do next. We know that data is here to help us improve, but how do you know where to look? And even then, what do you actually do to put the wheels of change in motion? Listen to this conversation with Abi Noda and Laura Tacho (CEO and CTO at DX) about data-driven management and how to take a structured, analytical approach to using data for improvement. Mentions and Links: M...
Feb 22, 2025•39 min•Ep. 74
In this episode, David Betts, leader of Twilio’s developer platform team, shares how Twilio leverages developer sentiment data to drive platform engineering initiatives, optimize Kubernetes adoption, and demonstrate ROI for leadership. David details Twilio’s journey from traditional metrics to sentiment-driven insights, the innovative tools his teams have built to streamline CI/CD workflows, and the strategies they use to align platform investments with organizational goals. Mentions and links: ...
Jan 31, 2025•25 min•Ep. 73
Chris Chandler is a Senior Member of the Technical Staff for Developer Productivity at T-Mobile. Chris has led several major initiatives to improve developer experience including their internal developer portal, Starter Kits (a patented developer platform that predates Backstage), and Workforce Transformation Bootcamps for onboarding developers faster. Mentions and links: Follow Chris on LinkedIn Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4 Listen to Decoder with Nilay Patel. Discussion p...
Jan 22, 2025•32 min•Ep. 72
In this episode, Abi and Laura dive into the 2024 DX Core 4 benchmarks, sharing insights across data from 500+ companies. They discuss what these benchmarks mean for engineering leaders, how to interpret key metrics like the Developer Experience Index, and offer advice on how to best use benchmarking data in your organization. Mentions and Links: DX core 4 benchmarks Measuring developer productivity with the DX Core 4 Developer experience index (DXI) Will Larson’s article on the Core 4 and power...
Jan 08, 2025•28 min•Ep. 71
In this episode, Abi and Laura introduce the DX Core 4, a new framework designed to simplify how organizations measure developer productivity. They discuss the evolution of productivity metrics, comparing Core 4 with frameworks like DORA, SPACE, and DevEx, and emphasize its focus on speed, effectiveness, quality, and impact. They explore why each metric was chosen, the importance of balancing productivity measures with developer experience, and how Core 4 can help engineering leaders align produ...
Dec 12, 2024•37 min•Ep. 70
In this episode, Brian Houck, Applied Scientist, Developer Productivity at Microsoft, covers SPACE, DORA, and some specific metrics the developer productivity research team is finding useful. The conversation starts by comparing DORA and SPACE. Brian explains why activity metrics were included in the SPACE framework, then dives into one metric in particular: pull request throughput. Brian also describes another metric Microsoft is finding useful, and gives a preview into where his research is he...
Nov 26, 2024•32 min•Ep. 69
Click here to view the episode transcript. In this episode, Snowflake’s Gilad Turbahn, Head of Developer Productivity, and Amy Yuan, Director of Engineering, dive into how they elevated developer productivity to a top company priority. They discuss the pivotal role of Snowflake’s CTO, who personally invested over half his time to guide the initiative, and how leadership's hands-on involvement secured buy-in across teams. The conversation also explores the importance of collaboration between engi...
Nov 12, 2024•58 min•Ep. 68
Click here to view the episode transcript. In this episode, Emanuel Mueller Ramos, Head of Developer Experience at Skyscanner, discusses the evolution of his team as they transitioned from focusing on frameworks and middleware to becoming a customer-centric, impact-driven organization. Emanuel details the strategies he used to gain stakeholder buy-in, why it's crucial to rethink traditional productivity metrics, and how they made a cultural shift to prioritize developer happiness and effectivene...
Oct 25, 2024•34 min•Ep. 67
Click here to view the episode transcript. In this week's episode, Abi is joined by industry leaders Idan Gazit from GitHub, Anna Sulkina from Airbnb, and Alix Melchy from Jumio. Together, they discuss the impact of GenAI tools on developer productivity, exploring challenges in measurement and enhancement. They delve into AI's evolving role in engineering, from overcoming friction points to exploring real-world applications and the future of technology. Gain insights into how AI-driven chat assi...
Jul 17, 2024•35 min•Ep. 66
Click here to view the episode transcript. In this week's episode, Abi welcomes Jared Wolinsky, Vice President of Platform Engineering at SiriusXM, to delve into the inner workings of platform engineering at SiriusXM. Jared sheds light on their innovative approach to prioritizing projects, emphasizing alignment with overarching business goals. They explore how these strategies boost developer speed and drive technological advancement within the organization. Links: When is the right time to esta...
Jun 19, 2024•41 min•Ep. 65
Click here to view the episode transcript'. In this episode, Michelle Swartz, Vice president of Developer Enablement American Express, shares insights on improving developer experience. She discusses the creation of an onboarding bootcamp and the development of the AmEx Way Library for better knowledge management. Michelle explains how AmEx balances standardization and flexibility with the concept of Paved Roads. She also highlights the importance of measuring success, fostering community, and e...
Jun 04, 2024•45 min•Ep. 64
Click here to view the episode transcript'. This week’s episode is a recording from a recent event hosted by Abi Noda (CEO of DX) and Laura Tacho (CTO at DX). The episode begins with an overview of the DORA, SPACE, and DevEx frameworks, including where they overlap and common misconceptions about each. Laura and Abi discuss the advantages and drawbacks of each framework, then discuss how to choose which framework to use. Mentions and Links: Dora.dev Discussion points: 2:50- DORA, SPACE, DevEx ov...
May 21, 2024•40 min•Ep. 63
Click here to view the episode transcript. In this week's episode, we welcome Derek DeBellis, lead researcher on Google's DORA team, for a deep dive into the science and methodology behind DORA's research. We explore Derek's background, his role at Google, and how DORA intersects with other research disciplines. Derek takes us through DORA's research process step by step, from defining outcomes and factors to survey design, analysis, and structural equation modeling. Mentions and Links: Derek De...
May 07, 2024•48 min•Ep. 62
Click here to view the episode transcript. This week we’re joined by Sean Mcllroy from Slack’s Release Engineering team to learn about how they’ve fully automated their deployment process. This conversation covers Slack’s original release process, key changes Sean’s team has made, and the latest challenges they’re working on today. Mentions and links: Read Sean’s blog post, The Scary Thing About Deploys Follow Sean on LinkedIn Time Stamps: (1:34): The Release Engineering team (2:13): How the mon...
Apr 23, 2024•34 min•Ep. 61
Click here to view the episode transcript. This week’s episode is the recording of a live conversation between Abi and Chris Westerhold (Thoughtworks Head of Developer Experience). This conversation is useful for anyone early in their journey with developer portals or platforms: Abi and Chris discuss common approaches to solving these problems, pitfalls to avoid, building vs. buying, and more. Mentions and Links Follow Chris on LinkedIn Watch the recording of this conversation Watch part 2 of th...
Apr 09, 2024•36 min•Ep. 60
Click here to listen to the episode transcript. On this week's episode, Abi interviews Kent Wills, Director of Engineering Effectiveness at Yelp. He shares insights into the evolution of their developer productivity efforts over the past decade. From tackling challenges with their monolithic architecture to scaling productivity initiatives for over 1,300 developers. Kent also touches on his experience in building a business case for developer productivity. Discussion points: (1:42) Forming the d...
Mar 26, 2024•45 min•Ep. 59
This week we’re joined by Gail Carmichael, Principal Instructional Engineer at Splunk. At Splunk, Gail’s team is responsible for improving developer onboarding, which they do through a multi-day learning program. Here, Gail shares how this program works and how they measure developer onboarding. The conversation also covers what instructional engineers are generally, and how Gail demonstrates the impact of her team’s work. Discussion points: (1:16) The Engineering Enablement & Engagement Tea...
Mar 12, 2024•40 min•Ep. 58
In this episode we’re joined by Adam Rogal, who leads Developer Productivity and Platform at DoorDash. Adam describes DoorDash’s journey with their internal developer portal, and gives advice for other teams looking to follow a similar path. Adam also describes how his team delivered value quickly and drove adoption for their developer platform. Discussion points: (1:47) Why DoorDash explored implementing a developer portal (6:59) The initial vision for the developer portal 12:19 Funding ongoing...
Feb 27, 2024•55 min•Ep. 57
In this episode, Abi has a fascinating conversation with Rebecca Parsons, ThoughtWorks's CTO, Camilla Crispim, and Erik Dörnenburg on the ThoughtWorks Tech Radar . The trio begins with an overview of Tech Radar and its history before delving into the intricate process of creating each report involving multiple teams and stakeholders. The conversation concludes with a focus on the evolution of Tech Radar's design and process and potential future changes. This episode offers Tech Radar fans an exc...
Feb 13, 2024•46 min•Ep. 56
This week's guest is Eirini Kalliamvakou, a staff researcher at GitHub focused on AI and developer experience. Eirini sits at the forefront of research into GitHub Copilot. Abi and Eirini discuss recent research on how AI coding assistance impacts developer productivity. They talk about how leaders should build business cases for AI tools. They also preview what's to come with AI tools and implications for how developer productivity is measured. Discussion points: (1:49) Overview of GitHub’s res...
Jan 31, 2024•48 min•Ep. 55
Christopher Sanson is a product manager at Airbnb who is dedicated to enhancing developer productivity and tooling. Today, we learn more about Airbnb's developer productivity team and how various teams use metrics, both within and outside the organization. From there, we dive even deeper into their measurement journey, highlighting their implementation of DORA metrics and the challenges they overcame throughout the process. Discussion points: (2:43) Who is the developer productivity customer (4:...
Jan 03, 2024•41 min•Ep. 54
In this episode, Abi speaks with Ana Petkovska, who is currently leading the developer experience team at Nexthink. Ana takes us through her journey of leading a DevOps team that underwent multiple transformations. She explains how her team went from being a DevOps team to EngProd and eventually DevEx. Ana elaborates on her team's challenges and the reasons behind the shift in focus. She also shares how she discovered EngProd and used data from companies like Google to convince her company to in...
Dec 13, 2023•27 min•Ep. 53
In this episode, Abi chats with Grant Jenks, Senior Staff SWE, Engineering Insights @ LinkedIn. They dive into LinkedIn's developer insights platform, iHub, and its backstory. The conversation covers qualitative versus quantitative metrics, sharing concerns about these terms and exploring their correlation. The episode wraps up with technical topics like winsorized means, thoughts on composite scores, and ways AI can benefit developer productivity teams. (1:10) Insights in the productivity space...
Dec 06, 2023•52 min•Ep. 52
This week's episode is with Jim Beyers, VP of Engineering Enablement at CVS Health. Jim joined CVS a year ago to lead an effort to build an internal developer platform. Abi and Jim discuss how Jim joined CVS to build an internal developer platform, what brought him to the job, and how the developer experience fits into the broader transformation goals of CVS. Additionally, this episode covers building the team, defining a strategy, and how he's thinking about winning the hearts and minds across ...
Nov 22, 2023•31 min•Ep. 51
This week we spoke with Nils Loodin, Platform Product Manager at Spotify. Nils describes how his role in platform product management works, including unique challenges, approaches, and career considerations. Nils also discusses some of the recent changes within Spotify's platform organization, including shifting teams from tech-centric to journey-centric. Discussion points: (1:30) How Nils came into his role (3:59) How “developer experience” came into the picture at Spotify (5:30) How the Platfo...
Nov 15, 2023•52 min•Ep. 50
This week we’re joined by Justin Wright and Matthew Dimich, who lead Platform Engineering and Engineering Enablement at Thomson Reuters. Justin and Matt give an inside look at how they’ve evolved their organization’s structure and approach over the past 8 years. Discussion points: (1:03) Founding the platform team (5:49) The current organizational structure (9:00) Key initiatives the platform organization is focused on (12:55) The enablement function within platform (16:44) What drove the engage...
Nov 08, 2023•41 min•Ep. 49
This week’s episode dives into the DORA research program and this year’s State of DevOps Report. Nathen Harvey, who leads DORA at Google, shares the key findings from the research and what’s changed since previous reports. Discussion points: (1:10) What DORA focuses on (2:17) Where the DORA metrics fit (4:35) Introduction to user-centric software development (8:05) Impact of user-centricity on software delivery (9:40) Team performance vs. organizational performance (13:50) Importance of internal...
Oct 25, 2023•46 min•Ep. 48
This week we’re joined by Preeti Kota, the Head of Engineering for Compass at Atlassian. Preeti walks us through Atlassian’s journey with developer experience: including how they measure DevEx, and how they drive improvements through efforts at both the organization and team levels. Preeti also talks about how this journey has led to the development of Atlassian’s newly released internal developer portal, Compass. Mentions and links: Learn about Compass , Atlassian’s newly released internal deve...
Oct 18, 2023•45 min•Ep. 47
