Which is a great segue. Optimists is I think going to be the greatest product in the history of humanity. What's the progress like and how much of your how many of your cycles are going specifically to Optimists. What's the timeline? I think you're on version three maybe four? Tell us everything?
Well, yeah, everything will gonna take a long time. We've got time.
We're finalizing the design of Optimist version three, and.
That really is going to be a very re multiple robot.
It will have the essentially the manual dexterity of a human It's meaning a very complex hand the an AI mind that can navigate and comprehend reality, and we made in very high volume. Those are the three things that I'm missing, Like if you see any other robotics company, they're missing those three things. Those are the three really hard things.
And I spend Actually, at this point.
It might be more of my mental cycles than anything anything else, any other single thing on Optimis. That's that that's solving pool real world AI all of the electro mechanical issues of Optimists, the supply chain and production challenges of it, because there is no supply chain that exists for humanoid robots, so it has to be we have to recreate it from scratch, and which requires doing a lot of vertical integration. None of the actuators in Optimism
are available from an existing supply chain. But I think it is accurate to say that if successful, Optimus will be the biggest product ever and the.
Cost of it at scale twenty thirty forty thousand dollars a robot. What do you think the first wave of them will cost and when will we be able to buy one to work on the ranch?
I think that the Martinmall cost of production once you hit a million units per year is probably around the twenty thousand dollars range. It so of depends on how much you spend on the AI chip in the robot to achieve a lot of efficiencies in the actuators. There are twenty six actuators per arm, like twenty six like motors, gearboxes and par electronics.
So, but the AI chip will be pretty expensive.
But like that, that might be like five, five or six thousand dollars of the of the bill of materials, maybe more.
And so but I think at volume.
At a million units a year, the production cost is probably in the order of twenty thousand dollars maybe twenty five something like that, and it price will be as a function of demand.
Lelon, can you maybe explain to everybody why the hand is so important to get right and why you know, the actuator design is so unique, and you know why it's so difficult, why nobody makes it, and why you have to start there almost to build the rest of the robot properly.
It turns out human hands are incredibly that they've evolved to to be this incredibly sophisticated machine like that. Your hand is no actually a remarkable thing. It's look look closely at your hands and and think of all the things you can do with your hands, which is a lot.
Just thinking about something. Your hands a very versatile instrument.
Yeah, you can give them a high five.
Very versatile.
You know, you can swing a baseball bat, you can thread needles, you put thread in a needle, you can play the cannon with violin. You know, you could disassemble or assemble a car. The hands are incredibly versatile instruments. And most of the muscles of the hand are actually in the forearm, so your hand is kind of like a like a like it's like a puppet like it's mostly a puppet.
The muscle.
The muscles are coming from the forearm and they're pulling the tendons, which are you know, also human tendon desizing or human human tendent evolution is incredibly good.
So you've got this web of tendons. You've got I think I think that.
Human hand is something like depending on how you counted, twenty seven or twenty eight degrees of freedom per you know, in the hand, it's uh, it's amazing. So in order to create a robot that can be a generalized, uh, humanoid, you must solve the hand hands problem.
And we had just got hands, knees, hands, and so is.
It like when you were first building Tesla where the supply chain doesn't exist, So now you have to go out and find folks to work with and you know, build all this vertical integration, get support.
Is it?
Is it literally like it's just nowhere to be found and you're going to have to build all of this stuff up.
Yes, we could not actually buy the actuators for any amount of money. They simply didn't exist, even though there are ten twenty thousand electric.
Motors out there.
Versus sizes and shapes, we've had to design every electric motor, gearbox and the controlling electronics from scratch, basically from physics post principles.
The good news is you've got a lot of experience with factories over the last couple of decades. So how challenging is this versus cyber truck, Model YDEL, gigafactory, you know the Yeah, the Faberge egg known as the Model X.
Yeah, right, it's harder than any any of those things.
Okay, yeah much hart significantly am Yes.
Well, there not hot starships harder.
Okay, So somewhere between a Model X and a starship.
Is it is the what's harder the hardware or the software?
Right now we're struggling with the the final design of the hardware. Like I said, it's really primarily the hand, not to just dismiss the rest of the robot. Rest of it's also important, but that the hands are hands and inclusive of the forum, are a majority of the engineering difficulty of the entire robot.
And then let's let's assume you get past the hardware challenges. How much do you sort of get for free based on all the progress that's happening with l ll ms. Will you know we'll consumers just be able to interact with this. Talk to the robot, ask you to do things and we'll understand.
And so yeah, yeah, no problem.
You're spending a lot of time with Annie. I know noticed online not that long.
Maybe I went a little over the top promoting rock Imagine.
Well, but in all seriousness, those characters and these robots that seems to be you know, like maybe.
They you could get the embodiments of ani as.
Yeah, why the human form factor? Elon, you could make something that's maybe better than a human, or maybe simpler than a human to do specific tasks, and maybe better than a human to do more things than a human can do. How do you decide to make it just like a human?
Well, if you wanted to do all the things that a human can do, it turns out you need a humanoid robot. So if you wanted to do a subset, that's much easier. But it turns out humans evolved to the shape and capabilities that we have for good reasons. That actually is that there is like this value to having quiet you four fingers in the thumb, and even the pinky actually is quite useful.
Tows are much more question walk but.
Well also humans.
Humans have designed the world as well, so we designed it for us. Exactly if we could make a humanoid robot, it'll be immediately backwards compatible with what we've.
Built the world for.
There's another there's another part of the robot. So there's the l l MS, there's the actuation in the hands, but also there's the the silicon that runs it, and there was you know dojo. I think you you posted on x A I five and AI six and it just seemed like you were incredibly excited about the direction in which the silicon layer was also going. Can you tell us about that and what that is? And what what?
What are we?
What are we building here? What is being built? Is it a complement to everything that exists in the world, Is it a potential long term competitor?
What is it?
Yeah, So.
At Tesla, we basically had two different chip programs, one Dojo and one UH dojo on the training side, and then over call you know AI or it's just our inference jib that the AI Force is currently shipping in all vehicles and we're finalizing finalizing the design of AI five, which will be an immense jump from AI four by some metrics, the improvement in AI five will be forty times better.
Than AI four times. And and this is because we work so closely at a.
Very fine grade level on the AI software and the AI hardware, so we know exactly where the limiting factors are, and so effectively the AI hardware and software teams are co designing the chip.
So forty x improvement in the silicon I think then, as it as everybody here in the audience experience is it is that just an almost like an order of magnitude increase in the quality of FSD and the safety that you experience as a Tesla driver, and then the quality of the robot. Like word, is it all manifest when you, you know, bring it up and actually get it into production.
Yeah, it's be precise.
The forty x is on if you said, like compared to the worst limitation on AI four, which is running the softmax operation. Yeah, we currently have to run softmax in around forty steps in emulation mode, whereas that will just be done in a.
Few steps natively in AI five.
A five trip will also be easily handled mixed precision models, so you don't have it'll dynamically handle mixed there's a bunch of sort of technical stuff that AIF I will do a lot better in terms of nominal sort of raw compute. It's it's eight times more compute, about nine
times more memory, roughly five times more memory boundwidth. So but because we're addressing some core limitations in AI four, you multiply that by that that eight x compute improvement via another five x improvement because of optimization at at a very fine grain silicon level of things that are currently suboptimal in.
AI four, that's where you get the forty x improvement you had. Keep going.
So now that said, I am confident that the current chips AI A four chips that are in the cars will achieve self dry having safety that is at least two to three times that of human and and maybe even ten x. And the software that will be released for that is coming out over the next few months, so version fourteen will be the biggest upgrade until the software stance version twelve. We are increasing the parameter account by an order magnitude. The there's there's there's a lot
of reinforcement learning that's been used. As we were there, There's like you can think of AI sort of as a way of compressing reality, and some of those compression steps we were too lossy, and we address the lostiness in the compression steps. So these are all software updates that will that will go out. So just over there updates.
Your car has got to feel like it is sentient by the end of the year.
It feels that way already, to be honest, I saw in the trades that you spent about seventeen billion dollars on some spectrum and that. Yeah, so some couch change to enable your satellites and the Starlink network to connect directly with phones. What will that look like in a year or two? Are we going to drop our Verizon account and just expand our Starlink account. We're kind of hoping because Verizon kind of sucks.
How many of you on a Starlink phone?
Who wants a Starlink phone? Is it technically possible?
I know you can't see it, but it's everyone.
Yeah, definitely A right cool. So this is a kind of a long term thing.
It will allow SpaceX to deliver high band with connectivity directly from the satellites to the phones, but there are hardware changes that need to happen in the phone so since these.
Frequencies aren't supported in current.
Phones, the chipset has to be modified to add these frequencies, and that probably.
Is a two year time frame.
So the phones that are able to use the spectrum that was acquired probably start shipping.
In around two years.
And then we also need to build the satellites that are going to communicate on those frequencies. So in parallel building the satellites and working with the handset makers to add these frequencies to the phones, and then the satellites and the phones will then handshake very well to achieve high bound with connectivity. But the net effect is that you should be able to watch videos anywhere on your phone.
Wow, and it's.
Going to be crazy.
What do these do? These frequencies?
Would they work indoors inside buildings, you know, like like that phone currently does?
Okay, and so.
Will you be able to have basically like if you if you if you're in a building with it with it like a thick metal roof, then no, but.
The same the same types of normal normal homes.
Yes, yes, Elon, is your vision for this that instead of you know, having an AT and T account or and then roaming when you're in the UK or you're in India. It's just we could have one direct deal with starlink. It works all over the world eventually, not today, but at some point. Is that the end goal that basically we don't need a regional carrier, we have a global carrier and that would be you.
Uh, that would be one of the options.
To be clear, We're not going to put the other carriers out of business. They're still going to be around because they own a lot of spectrum. So, uh, there's a but. But yes, you'll you should be able to have a Starlink like you have like you have an A T and T or the mobile Bride and whatever you should you could have a you know account with stallink that works with your you know, starlink h antenna at home, uh, for your Wi Fi as well as
on your phone. And yeah, it would be a comprehensive solution for high bandwidth at home and for high end with Director sell.
Could you buy some carriers to have more spectrum, maybe five Hoverrizon.
Not out of the question. I suppose that may happen.
Let's talk about let's talk about Starship. You just had a really what appeared to be a phenomenal launch. How close is it to you know, being predictable and ready to go in a commercial setting.
I think we'll recover the ship next year.
We've got one more launch of the Stallink version two to.
Stack, but there's only one one booster and ship left that's in the version two design.
And then thereafter it's it's version three, which is a gigantic upgrade because that's got Raptor three and pretty much.
Everything changes on the rocket with version three.
So version three you might have some initial tieving pains because it's such a radical redesign, but it's it's capable of over one hundred tons to of it fully reusable, and I think it's I think I think.
Unless we have unless we have some very.
Major setbacks, SpaceX will demonstrate full reusability next year, catching both the booster and the ship and being able to deliver over one hundred tons to a useful orbit.
What is the best rocket in the world do now in terms of page to space.
Well, in terms of uh sort of commercial rockets, this this Falcon Heavy, which we'll do in with with with side booster reuse, we'll do about forty tons.
So this is five times bigger.
Yeah, well two and a half times bigger. But but starsha would be full reuse, full reusability, got it? Okay, Hey, everything comes back.
Elan after after the explosion that happened with the failed launch, there was a lot.
Of sorry which which failed, the more.
Recent one, the more recent with the starship hat with the big boom, yeah, and the big boom, the and and there's a lot of There was a lot of proclamations that there's going to be environmental and f a A and all these other sorts. The recovery back to the launch pad again was incredible fast. How did you get back so fast? Not just technically and work wise, but just like regulatory clearance wise, because they said there were gonna be all these questions and reviews and so on.
How did you guys manage that?
Well, there were a lot of questions and reviews. We got through them all. And credit to the SpaceX team. They worked incredibly hard and they got the next sugar and booster tested and on the pad and plan and used.
Credit to the SpaceX team.
Very proud of them for doing doing such a job, a great job recovering, I mean, creating a fully reusable OpenAL rocket is one of the hottest engineering problems ever. Certainly you know, a candidate for most difficult interineering project ever.
You know, it's on the podium at least.
So it's a that that's been the goal of SpaceX from the beginning, from two thousand too, and here we.
Are twenty three years later.
So it's a long journey and with a super talent like by far, I think the most talented group of rocket engineers that's ever been assembled, and we're finally next year, I think.
We'll be able to achieve full reusability.
On what are the big technical blockers that you're focused on there between now and that full reusability? Are there some showstoppers where you're just kind of literally just obsessing over trying to figure out still or is it more about getting through a side of a laundry list of your learnings and just integrating it into the next launch.
Well, well, for full reusability of the ship, there's still a lot of work that.
Remains on the heat shield. So no one's ever made.
A fully reusable opal heat shield like the Shuttle heat shield had to go through nine months of repair after every flight, right, so no one has ever made a.
Fully reusable overal heat shield and is.
That a material science problem or is that an engineering problem or both?
Yeah, I mean it's a material science engineering problem. So it's but we really are uh looking at the fundamental.
Physics here again physics post.
Principles and trying to figure out how do we make something that is you know, it can withstand the heat, is very light, doesn't transmit.
The heat to the primary primary structure.
And.
Integrity is holdile, stay on and they don't crack. Yeah. Uh.
And then as you ascend, if you hit some rain, the tiles don't dissolve and rain. There's there's a lot of different issues, and then you really need to know that these tiles are working. You can't you know, go through this laborious inspection. So it really needs to be where you know, these these tens of thousands of tiles all work and don't need to be repurbished or checked one by one.
That was the case with the shuttle.
Can we maybe switch now, think, I mean, who who else were you talked about Tesla? Then you go to SpaceX Yeah, now I'd like to ask you some questions about rock and x AI. You want to just give us an update. I think you you kind of talked about where the next gen model is and you said
something incredible. I still don't think people really understand it, which is, you know, there's going to be a next training run where you expect, you know, not to start from the you know, common web and common crawl, where you expected an enormous amount of synthetic data. Just tell us about how the evolution of GROC is going and this innovation and why it's so important.
Yeah, So we're running a lot of using a lot of inference, compute and reasoning to look at all of the source data, which is really the corpus of human knowledge, and then thinking about each piece of information and then adding what adding what's missing, and correcting, correcting mistakes and removing falsehoods from the from that training data. So it's it's if you take data Wikipedia as an example, but this really applies to the books, PDFs, the websites, every
form of information. The GROC is using heavy amounts of inference can put to say to look at, as an example, a Wikipedia page and say, what is true postially true or false.
Or missing in this page?
Now rewrite the page to correct the remove the false foods, correct the half truths, and add the missing context.
Well, elong, by the way, could you just publish that? Could we create like a Grockipedia?
I mean yeah, especially for our bio pages, which a disaster.
Wikipedia is so biased and it's it's a constant war. You know, if something gets corrected five minutes later, there'll be an army of people trying to I mean, it's become hyper partisan and there's hyperperactivists.
All over it.
So if you do fix, for example, Wikipedia is a source of truth, it'd be great to publish that just so the world has.
It all right, I'll about that, so total team about that, like grock Fedia or whatever.
Let's here's the grock Fedia.
Version interesting and then just have it out there.
Where in terms of people here like it?
Uh?
In terms of training, Grock five, you're you're scaling up your supercluster in Colossus in Memphis.
Second one, Yeah, could you give us an update on that?
And then also as part of that, where are we in the scaling laws? If you scale a bigger cluster, do you get a more powerful AI model?
Is there a point of diminishing returns? Or like how much more.
Compute if you throw twice as much compute at it, do you get a ten better model?
Do you get one hundred percent better model?
Like?
Is it log linear?
What?
What? I guess? How much more juice is there left in scaling hardware?
Do you think?
I think, I think there's a natural logarithmic function associated with the amount of cute. So then like say, for auguments, take like panex more compute will double the intelligence. Maybe that's that might be a rough rule of thumb, but you know that still means that you know, you go from hundred IQ to hundred i Q still pretty pretty
big deal. So I and I think I think we'll see intelligence continue to scale all the way up to where you know, most of the power of the sun is hardness for compute, and then ultimately most of the power of the galaxy, you know, sort of Kardashev two quartus show three scale compute. So I guess I want to think about official intelligence not as sort of this.
You know, a destination that you reach, but.
Really as part of the overall escalation of intelligence.
That that that we are aware of.
You know, human intelligence is also scaled, as you have as the population has increased and we've been able to store more and more information. Human intelligence is scale now human Because of population declines and low growth rate, human intelligence is somewhat plateauing and will actually decline. And my guess is that I think that we might have AI smarter than any single human at anything as soon as next year wow, and then probably within five, like I say,
twenty thirty. Probably AI is smarter than the some gold humans.
Do you think do you think humans are on the decline because the AI is evolving? Do you think there's this evolution of the ecosystem on Earth that's out our way that we don't really understand the structure of what's going on, but.
Maybe yeah, maybe we implicitly know that it's coming.
Yeah, I mean, I hope the birth rates soon around. I'm I'm a big proponent of increased birth rate.
Obviously, Well you doing anything about it or no?
A good example.
You know, we had a.
Big conversation at this conference we didn't expect, which is suicidal empathy the West. This declining birth rate. I noticed you've been pretty active about it.
And open borders and open borders the Tucker talk. Could all three of those be the same thing?
It seems like, there's a number of symptoms of the West being suicidal, the most obvious one being the birth rate is not a replacement level. So obviously if that continues and definitely then the West will literally not.
Reproduce enough to replace itself. But there's other things too.
There's the fact that the borders were totally opened to the point where Western culture, the social fabrics started to come apart. And you see this especially in Europe where they're you know, the indigenous cultures of the UK or France or Germany or starting to potentially be taken over by by cultures of people who are brought in and
aren't assimilating. You have crime where you know, we have this case on social media right now, this young woman, Irena who's just killed in a senseless way on a subway, which is horrific enough in and of itself, but then in addition to that, the elite media just for whatever reason just refused to cover it like it didn't exist. So you have this issue of crime that's not being addressed or even no knowledge.
And no acknowledgment of this, Like it's almost like we're trying to deny the reality of the spiral and this.
Yeah, so you have the you have all these data points that seemed to suggest that the West is suicidal or doesn't you know, doesn't seem to want to defend itself or propagated itself. Look, I think everyone in this room thinks that life is awesome, right, I mean it's pretty great.
Yeah.
And when when Alex Karp was here earlier today defending the West, that got some of the loudest applause at the conference. So, uh, I guess we probably don't really understand what's going on.
We don't really.
Yeah, what's your take elon because you know, what's your take on the suicide of the West?
Yeah, what's what's.
I'm very worried about it. Yeah, I'm very worried about it. You know. I think there's the.
Let's just say that the actions of the West are indistinguishable from suicide.
It's so, but it's.
Look, at least in America, there's there's there's generally a sense of optimism. But when's the last time you told someone from Europe who lives in Europe who's optimistic?
Not for a while, no decades, like even one. It's rare.
So I think unless people have a sense of optimism and purpose about the future.
They so suicide might be just what.
Happens, like like like having a child is an act of optimism about the future.
So uh, if you're not optimistic.
Yeah, So I think we need to maybe give people a sense of optimism and excitement about the future. And I believe that the future will be better than the past and they'll be more interested in having kids.
Did religion play a role in the past? Elanta? Yeah, kind of play Kate and make folks feel that way.
Yeah, I think so.
Nature abhors a vacuum, and if you take away religion, then I think you actually you you get something in this place which is actually worse than what was there before. I mean it's like destructive basically, you get you get like the white work mind virus pulling, filling the whole that religion used to have, taking the place.
Of of of religion. You get these dystopian, de facto religions that that are that are very very self destructive.
So I think perhaps some some sort of revival of religion, or at least what we need is is some coherent philosophy that people can get excited about, you know, I mean, for me, it's a philosophy of curiosity. I'm curious about the nature of universe, and I want to go out there, and I want humanity to be out there exploring the stars.
That maybe meeting alien civilizations.
Uh maybe in some cases we see the ruins of elongate alien civilization, but they were they were very strong for ten million years, you know, the kind of stuff that you see in Star Trek, in a non dystopian and sci fi book or or movie or show. And so I'm just to have a I have a philosophy of curiosity of like, I just want to know what's going on. And in order to know what's going on, we must have and an increase in the in the
scope and scale of consciousness. We must we must expand as consciousness, we must grow, we must grow humanity, and we must extend humanity in order to comprehend and to understand the universe.
Even what what.
Question should we should ask about? The answer that is the universe?
You know.
Doug Douglas adams book The Hitchhrackers Guys in the Galaxy is actually a deep book on philosophy disguised as humor. And what the point he was trying to make in that book was that the questions are the really the hard part. The answer is the universe, like the answer is everything you see around you. But but but what are the questions that we.
Don't know to ask?
Ye?
Now some of the questions I guess I do know. I'd like to know is the standard model of physics correct? About the origins of the universe? Are we actually thirty twenty ellion years old? How does the universe end? Does end an heat death or in some other way, you know, a black hole.
We might be Can you talk about the whole sort of simulation question? Are we assimulation? Maybe?
Where does the Where do you think we find the answer first in AI or in the stars? Because you're pursuing both obviously.
Yeah, I don't know if I hope more people can get behind a philosophy of curiosity because I think it's very exciting. Yeah, and and and and inherently optimistic, like because there's there's this amazing, amazing sense.
Of wonder about the nature of the universe.
And when you just when you uncover some secrets to the universe, that's amazing, and you're like a whole world of understanding is opened up. I mean we used to not even know where all the continents were. You know, used to be like just the map would be, there'd be dragons, and like all we know is that when they sailed in that direction, they didn't come back. I mean the moon base, that's that's all they knew.
I kind of feel like the moon base, or just going to the Moon for real this time would be a big step in the right direction. You still have the Moon planned, what's the status of that? Is that still on the agenda?
Yea, yea, I think having I think we want to try to reach new heights as a civilization, so I think that's it's fine to go to the Moon, but we should go to the Moon in order to establish a lunar base, like a lunar research base. I mean, there are parts of the Moon that are perhaps older than parts of Earth, and we might understand more about the nature of the universe if we had a science base on the Moon, that would be very cool. And then we obviously want to go beyond the Moon to Mars,
and well they self sustaining city on Mars. I do think that that there is a folk in the road of human destiny where if we can establish a self sustaining city on Mars, with the key test being if the resupply ships from Earth stopped coming for any reason, does Mars continue to prosper or.
Does it die out.
At the point at which Mars is able to asper and grow on its own, the probable lifespan of consciousness is dramatically greater because we are no longer dependent on everything going right on Earth. You know, there's there's always some possibility of self annihilation on Earth with the World War three, or or supervirus or or or a media or like extinct. But you know that destroyed the dinosaurs. We know from the fossil record that there have been
many massive mass extinction events. So the question that I sort of always wondering about is will civilization can Will the civilizational arc continue to ascend such that we can make Mars self sustaining before the civil civilizational arc descends, because the window of opportunity to make life faulty planetary exists now for the first time in the four and a half billion year history of Earth.
Yeah, you'll also assume that we get there and you're there. You know, you would be the elder statesman, you'd have the moral authority of Mars. How do you run Mars?
H But there's this point that I think I want to just emphasize again, that's that's that's more important than the form of governance on Mars or who's there in the early days. What really matters is that Mars is self sustaining, that we are truly a multi planet species and such such that we've achieved planetary redundancy, so that if if something, obviously we should do everything possible to
make sure life on Earth is great. But there's always some risk that of an annihilation event on Earth, like I said, self annihilation or some natural disaster and UH, and so the probable lifespan of consciousness increases dramatically as soon as UH, as soon as we are a multiplanet species, with the key test being can Mars survive if the resupply ships stop coming. So it's getting like the first
missions to Mars are not that important. What matters is can you get sufficient tonnage to Mars such that Mars can prosper on its own, And that means it has to have all of the ingredients of civilization. It's not just that you need to build, for example, a chip factory, on Mars or ship fab on Mars, but you need the ability ability to apps.
Do you have a sense of the time scale, Like, let's assume Starship is at a state starting in you know, twenty twenty six, then there's going to be a bunch of testing. Obviously there's going to be a bunch of early testing. We only have certain launch windows, so there's a bunch of time constraints. Is this a fifty year thing in your mind? Is it one hundred and fifty year thing? Is it something that is for our generation or is it our children's generation? Where do you see
that point? If it's optimally possible, you know, things go and break our way.
I think it can be done in thirty years.
If it provided there's an exponential increase in the in the tonnage to Mars with each success of MAAS transfer windows, which is every two years, So every two years the planets aligned and you can you can transfer to Mars. So I think in roughly fifteen, but maybe as few as ten, but I saw ten to fifteen ish mass
transfer windows. If you're seeing exponential increases in the tonnage to Mars with each mass transfer window, then it should be possible to make more self sustaining in about quote roughly twenty five years.
Amazing.
That's incredible.
All right, ladies and gentlemen, Elon Musk, we'll see you when we're back in town. We miss you, see you in person, that's time. Thank you, brother,