Latest interview of Elon Muss.
How long is the trip from hosting too here quite lately, I.
Think it's about eight or nine hours.
Okay, so you're fresh like him in the first morning, Yeah, exactly. So first question is about demography, and I spoke with you in the past about that, and I think it's really important for you, and you pointed on that a lot of your discussion and your partners.
Is it.
Yeah, I think, you know, I really want to emphasize that it's important to have children and to create the new generation. And as simple as it sounds, if people do not have children, there is no new generation. So so I very very much strongly recommend that, you know, I'm very much in favor of humanity expanding and creating a bright and exciting future of the world. And but but but fundamental to the furtherance of human civilization is having humans as as simple and basic as that sounds.
And uh, you know, every every year I look at the the birth rates and I'm like, it's it's kind of a bit depressing because, uh, birth rates seem to decline every year, and I think, uh, you know that pass my my biggest advice to leaders, to government leaders, and and and to to the people in general. Would would be to make sure to have children to create
the new generation. And I think any any incentives that can be done to incent the new generation, to make it easier for men to have children and to support the children, I think would be very wise. This is so fundamental and I really can't emphasize that enough. If if you don't have a new generation, there is no new generation, or with current birth rates, I think it may be the generations are at birth rates maybe.
Half half of the replacement rate.
And what that means is in three generations the population will be one roughly roughly one tenth of its current size. In three generations maybe four generations that you'll have, the population will be one tenth of its current size. So I always want to emphasize this point because it is so basic and fundamental that if if there's not at least a birth rate which is keeping population constant, then a people will will will disappear, disappear, disappearer.
We have a lot of immigration. Somebody says that immigration is important.
For that reason.
What's your point on that immigrations is coming in Europe and is coming in America from the south of America and then Europe from the south of the Mediterranean Sea.
What do you think about that?
Well, I think one can't depend on other countries for immigration. And in fact, if you look at say the population worldwide, and this is almost everywhere in the world, and it seems to be a function of how once the country industrializes, once the country urbanizes, the population immediately starts to decline. So what one could say, for example, like like China could not possibly solve its population with immigration because if you you know, China's currently tracking to be maybe lose
forty percent of its population every generation. You know, that would be seven hundred million, eight hundred million people.
Or seven hundred roughly seven six seven hundred million people. It's a lot.
Basically, you'd have to have the entire United States immigrate there twice every generation to simply maintain numbers just for China. So immigration there simply aren't enough numbers in immigration. And I think I think there is value to a culture, you know, and we don't want cultures. We don't want Japan to disappear. We don't want Italy as a culture to disappear. We don't want France as a culture to disappear.
I think we have to have the maintain the sort of reasonable cultural identity of the various countries or they simply will not be those countries. You know, Italy is Italy.
Is the people of Italy.
The buildings are there, but really what is Italy Italy is the people of Italy, the probably person. So I mean, I just think it's a And I speak as someone who is very much, very much and I'm an environmentalist, and I believe in having, you know, building a sustainable
future for the world. I think that there are very few people who, as an individual, who have done more than I have for to help the environment with electric cars and solar and and batteries to create a sustainable energy future, because we absolutely need a sustainable energy future. But but, but there is an aspect of the environmental movement that I think has gone too far.
Really said from you.
Yes, so said for me.
You know, I think I am objectively one of the world's leading environmentalists in terms of doing things like I'm an environmentalist who does things up talk of action, not talk.
I act.
So I feel I can say, as as an environmentalist that the environmentalist movement has gone too far and in that if you in the natural extension of the environmentalist movement, if you go too far, you start to look at humanity as a bad thing. You start to look at humanity as though we are a plague on the surface of the earth, as though humanity is a bad thing. And in fact, there are some people who think and
say explicitly that. In fact, there was on the front page of the New York Times there was a guy who said, there are eight billion people on earth. It will be better if there were none, which is.
Crazy, definitely. So you taught me a joke about that.
You told want to joke about the cows and the problem with the cows.
You remember that, Oh, yeah, don't worry about the cows of tels A fine. Cows are not going to destroy the environment, hours are fine.
Yeah, yes, you know, we.
Have a a lot of lows European laws again against all the people who walk to them. You know, it's a big issue for it because it seems in green issue, but is a very industrial issue for us.
Yeah.
I think farming and cows are not do not have any meaningful effect on the environment, Yes, underline please, I yes, objectively this is true.
So so the if you say, like there's.
There's really only one thing that matters from an environmental standpoint for carbon, which is that we are taking billions, eventually trillions of tons of carbon from buried deep with it under the earth and putting transferring it to the.
Atmosphere and oceans. That's the that's actually really all that.
Matters, is taking vast amounts of carbon from underground where it's buried and moving it into.
The atmosphere by burning it.
And if you do that for long enough enough, eventually you will get climate change. Now, I think the climate change alarm is somewhat overblown in the short term. It's still a concern in the long term, but I think it's exaggerated in the short term. Great Now I have to I'm trying to thread the needle here between what you know, like what is pragmatic and what is sensible,
what really matters and what doesn't matter. What really matters is that over the long term, over the course of the next several decades, that we gradually reduce how how many millions and billions of tons of carbon that we move from underground and to the atmosphere. Because we're running sort of a climate experiment that is dangerous, but I also don't think that I'll think of it as a
fundamental civilizational risk. It is it's not going to destroy life on Earth, it's not going to destroy humanity, but will it will create hardship if you change the climate over many decades. So it's it's I think my message is like I think much more pragmatic, and I think I think correct and sensible, and I don't think we should demonize oil and gas.
I think we.
Should say, look, that is obviously necessary in the short term and the medium term too, and a little bit take several decades to become sustainable. So I think if we just without getting too worried about it, seek to have a sustainable energy future gradually, then that's what will happen. And so I think that some of the environmentalists movement has is part of what is We're causing people to lose hope in the future. So I guess what if trying I say is that we should have hope in
the future. We should be excited about the future, and we should both the future we want.
What about and even.
You call it the work mind, Yes, sure, it's the name you gave to the work work mind illness.
What's that virus? Yeah, so so it's coming to Europe.
I have to advise you, yes, well this is not something you should import from America. Please don't import the work mind virus is bad. So the I mean essentially that to summarize maybe the worklind virus, it consists of creating very very divisive.
Identity politics. So it actually.
Amplifies work virus, myn virus, in my view, amplifies racism, amplifies frankly, sexism and all the isms, and.
While claiming to do the opposite, it actually.
Divides people and makes them, uh sort of hate each other, and it makes people hate themselves. And it's also anti meritocratic.
It's not like you know, it's not merit based.
So you want you want to have people succeed based on how hard they work and the talents, not who they are.
Whether the man, woman, what what what? Race or you know, gender? What's that?
Stuff is all creating. It's an artificial uh you know, mental civil war that is created and it's not and let me say it's no fun, okay. It is like it is like woke mind virus and fun are incompatible.
Is no fun in that.
No joy, it's it's it woke mind virus is all about condemning people instead of celebrating people, you know, like when in the work, it just doesn't celebrate. It's all about condemning and being divisive and and being just I think it's just evil frankly, really yeah, yeah, it's.
Bad, so bad.
Yeah, but you get a lot of problems saying so on on your social and excel. Have this point of view you are good friend of about my administration, and now they don't really like you so much for this kind of speech you're doing in public or not.
I don't know. I mean, I just I'm very very pro human I'm very pro civilization.
I'm in favor of humanity and our collective consciousness expanding on Earth and going beyond Earth, being a multiplanet species, a space bearing civilization, and being out there among the stars and finding out the nature of the universe, like all the things that you know, it's that seems like to me, and you know, exciting things.
Something you can get really excited about, is you to.
Get excited, like we want to have ideas that make you look forward to waking up in the morning, look forward to the day, look forward to the future, and you know, so you have to say what what excites you about the future, What moves your heart about the future, what makes you say like, yes, I'm glad about what will happen in the future. That's what we must, you know, focus on. And that's that's why we have to have
a new generation. We've got to build, and we've got to grow and and uh, like I said, I understand this, understand the the the nature of this beautiful universe that we find ourselves in and the meaning of life or even what questions to ask about, you know, the meaning of life. Let us explore this wondrous creation and and have a good time doing it. Yeah, that's my philosophy.
Let me go back for a little because I want to ask you about your perception of Europe as a building, not as people. Because of Europe do a lot of flow, us won, a lot of integration of cultures, different cultures and has different approach to the immigration. We heard Meloney did a lot on that with the Premier rama I see in the first line of Albania. What do you think about this approach of Europe approach as a building.
I would say as an established building.
Well, I should say, like to be clear on immigration overall, I'm very much in favor of legal immigration.
I think that.
Generally, I think which one should welcome to a country, anyone who is willing to work hard and is honest, you know, has high integrity, and will add to you know, any given country. If somebody is an asset to the country, why not have them drain. That's obviously a great thing
to do. So I think it's good actually to have an increase in legal immigration and and a simple legal with paper, with just some some approval process, but with a simple requirement that look, if somebody is going to add to a country, like just really hard working and high, high integrity, let them in.
I think that's great.
But if there's if it's illegal immigration and there's no filter, well, how do you know who's coming and you don't know, So you have to have some you know, uh basis for saying somebody should come in or not come in, and and and my argument is like it should be a very simple basis. Will they will they add to the country, will they be a productive part of the economy, And.
Do they admire the culture? Do they want to join?
Because of the culture, then that's great, but if you know, if if there's no process for that, then you don't know. I think you know at least some number of the people that come in well will not be necessarily And I want to be careful because my words will be misconstrued. I'm not saying all illegal immigrants are are bad. I think probably perhaps most of them are good, but there will be some.
If there's no.
Process for reviewing not at all, then how can you say that everyone who is a legal immigrant is going to be honest.
And hard working. You can't say that because you simply don't know.
So I want to be clear, top line pro immigration, but let's increase legal immigration, but we should stop illegal immigration.
I think this is just logical.
You have a lot of company, so that's right. You can drink because I want to do the list of the company. Yeah, you have five to seven minutes to do that. I mean, I'm joking with space x X narrow len.
That's already excess. Oh the ex guess what my favorite letter is.
Okay, it's a good Pleased to invest Italy and it's a good place. Please to invest some of I mean not your money, but have some investment from your company, of the American companies, of the I would say competitive companies in this place.
What's your opinion?
No, I mean I think Italy is an incredible country, incredible culture. I love I love visiting, I love the Italian people. I think you guys are amazing, like.
So tall. Yeah, so so I want, I you know, personally, I want.
I want to actually I want the prosperity of Italy and I want the prosperity of every country. I want the prosperity of humanity as a whole. And like I said, I want, I have to ask to have an exciting future where we're fired up about what's going to happen and really excited. So uh, you know, and I think, you know, Italy is a great place to invest. It's a great, great country. And but but I do want to emphasize that the that I do worry that about
the low birth rate. And you know, if if a if a company is to invest in Italy, they're like, well, you have to say, like will there be enough people to work there? You know, it's a simple question. You know, if if the workforce is declining, then if the workforce is declining, then then then then who will work at the company.
Simple if there's no people, there's no people to work.
I mean in fifty years, but I think it's even sooner than that though, you know, if we'll be so worried about that is the problem.
I feel like a total Cassandra here because like I seem to be worried about it much more than other people. But you know, they're just needs to be people. If you don't make a new generation of people, there is no new generation of people.
So that's it.
And I know I'm I'm being you know, I'm being repetitive here, but I'm just I'm just trying to state state backed you know so, and uh.
Yeah, so there's a good place to invest.
I no, I agree, it's a good place to invest and uh and a wonderful country. So please make more Italians, is what I'm saying.
You said once that the Internet that is the is the system is the new I've write down that your world the nervous system of humanity. What's it's once to me a long time religence for your artificially, if that is the nervous system inte artificial intelligence? Was I mean, use another metaphor.
You asked me, what do I think of artificial intelligence? Obviously, well, you can think of artificial intelligence as.
This is perhaps the.
Biggest inflection point in intelligence since Homo sapiens. Yeah, yeah, yeah, artificial intelligence is will be essentially a sort of a new.
Species, or is a new species.
So I think one of the biggest challenges if I look at say civilizational risk, you know, the risk to the future of humanity. You know, birth rate is one of them, if we just don't have kids and dwindle away. That's one which I've talked a lot about. The other is, you know, there's always like potentially nuclear war of course, that kind of thing that an AI is also an existential risk, and we need to be I think we
need to be careful with the advent of AI. But it is very much it's very much a double edged sword. You can think of AI as kind of like the magic genie. You know that like digital superintelligence will be capable.
Of doing anything anything, pretty much anything, but he doesn't have any consciousness. I'm wondering about that.
I mean, there is a whole question of like what is consciousness in fact? So here's like I always say, I've thought a lot about.
What is consciousness and where does consciousness arise?
You know, to say, like, because I think in terms of physics, you know, and at least if physics is true, then we go from a start of the universe where things are almost entirely hydrogen.
And then if you leave the hydrogen.
Out long enough, eventually it coalesces into stars, and then those stars explode and then they recondense, you know, And so like most of the mass in your.
Body was once at the center of a star, which is kind of wild, billions of years ago.
And so where where along the lines of hydrogen to human does consciousness arise?
You get very serious when you speak about that.
Yeah, always a real question.
If you leave hydrogen out in the it's not long enough, it starts talking to itself.
Here we are hydrogen talking to itself.
How to deal with that?
So if it is so important, how to deal I mean, right lows personal behavior?
How to deal with that? I think you intelligence because the.
Process I mean, I think we need to kill keep a close eye on artificial intelligence. I mean I am in favor of some regulatory insight, just so that there's someone can at least be a referee, like if you think of any game, like there's always a referee for a game. For industries that affect the good of the people, there's there are regulatory agencies that oversee those industries. Anything that's dangerous is overseen by some kind of referee or regulator.
I think we should have the same thing for AI, just to help ensure that it is beneficial. The good part of AI is that we are headed for a future of abundance. So AI and robotics will mean that there are no shortage of goods and services. There's there will be goods and services. If you can think of it, you can have it, basically, So this is a quite profound Like I said, it's the magic genie.
AI. AI and robotics will get you anything you want.
Now, usually in these sort of fairy tales about magic genies, it doesn't turn out so well. You have to be careful what you wish for, even if you wish for our wishes. So it's just something we should be cautious about.
Okay.
On the plus side, it will bring many benefits.
Like I said, it will usher in an age of abundance, so that the positive scenario of AI is that there's an age of abundance, and there are no shortage of goods and services that any scarcity that is that exists will be only because we define in it to be scuts. So and it just seemed to be somewhat of an inevitable thing.
AI.
So you know there's that supposedly that that's Chinese saying about may you live in interesting times? Well, I think we currently live in the most interesting of times in all of history right now. So anyway, so my recommendation on AIS, I think we want some kind of regulatory oversight just to make sure.
That it's beneficial. AI.
Great, we hope.
So and what about what the governments like, I mean they are elected by people like Maloney and this government and the other government, they have any risks or what do you think about these challenge for the for the executive of the nations about all these new processes.
Sorry, I'm not try to understand the question.
What's a risk for the government of these or if you have intelligens, are they any risks?
I mean that democracy is finished.
Well, I think there's certainly risk of artificial intelligence affecting voting opinion I suppose, and manipulating public opinion. So I think there's there's some risk of yeah, AI manipulating the public. I think that's probably that's the risk of that. So yeah, okay, you know, but I think probably, like like I said, eighty percent probable that AI is beneficial, harmful something like that.
I'm always worried because you know, we have a new government is two years, this government almost two years, and who have a Europe for us is our artificial intelligence. It seems like artificial intelligence, but it's not very intelligent sometimes Europe, and so I'm wondering what do you think about the government and about Europe? For us, it's so
important the relation. I understand our different intelligence in the future, but in the present we have laws, you know, constraints that comes from Europe.
What do you think about that? If you have any.
Opinion that, what do you think about Italian government which is trying to have a position. I would say a position, Meloni, I don't know if there's more than a position. You want need to be more tough than a position.
It's okay, what do you think it's good to have a position in Europe? To be I mean, I would say different from the main course of European politics.
You mean like country decisions versus decisions.
Or decision about green about the politics immigration.
Of I mean there's a separate question of like I think regulations in Europe there are too many regulations in general. I'm not speaking about specific case of AI. I think one could look at this as overall a fundamental function of a stable civilization. The longer that any given civilization is stable and does not have a big war, the more rules and regulations will accumulate over time. So rules, regulations, laws,
they are immortal, they never die, but people die. So if every year more and more rules, regulations, and laws are added, you will eventually make everything illegal. And you can think of it sort of like Gulliver's travels, where Galiba, if the nation is Gulliver, is being tied down by one little regulatory string at a time, and eventually you have millions of strings, and then the giant can't move.
And so I think there needs to be something where we delete rules, regulations and laws, because if we keep, if we simply, if all we do is add them, eventually we will be able to do nothing.
Okay, should I do some questions about your companies? Because here there are all the young people not only the young people from an important Italian party and they most of them use the social network.
They use X.
And I saw in the past days that the CEO of this and they said, I don't want to invest any advertising on X. And he's investing, for example, in the May tie in the Instagram and he said that there are problem.
I don't know which kind of problem they find on what's that? Yeah?
What?
What's what's going on? And why why an important investor like this? They said something so tough on X? What's going on there?
Well, I think, first of all, I think X will be will be fine, and we are actually already seeing advertisers return to two X, so I guess they were I don't know if set with something I said or something I don't know, but they, you know, advertisers, I think are the brand. Advertisers are a little they're always worried about their brand, and you know, maybe I.
Think maybe a bit more than they should be. But I think it's a short term issue.
Like I said, the advertisers and sometimes get upset, but then they usually calm down and they return to advertising.
So come on, you know that there's a walk virus over there? Well, oh, yes, right to say, I don't want to answer for you.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, you're right.
You're right.
If we're going to fight the work mind virus, then the work work mind virus will fight back, and unfortunately Disney is deeply infected with the work mind virus. In fact, if you ask an ai what is the most work company on Earth? It's Disney, you know.
But and you have to say, what would I mean?
I think they should be asking themselves what would Walt Disney think of Disney today?
I think he's turning in his grave. I think he's not happy. Sure, sure, you know, if the namesake.
Of the company is not happy, that's probably a bad sign. You know, because Walt Disney, what did he care about? He cared about bringing joy to people's lives. He put up, you know, making wonderful things that children and families can enjoy it. And you know, he was it created some of the coolest, you know, art in the world and stuff that even one hundred years after it's created, we still remember it and it's still it's still a major thing.
But you have to say, how great was Walt Disney? Was amazing?
But now Disney, at least for now is deeply infected with the work mya virus.
I think that will you know, that will change?
Yeah, oh I hope.
So right at that, the European Commission they're not investing on excer Do you know that maybe they're a.
Little they got the work my envirus too.
Yeah, you don't care, I think so, you know, And and it's like, why are they importing this this crazy thing from America? You know, It's like it's just some thing that was created basically by sort of far left crazy people in US colleges, and now it's spreading all over the world. And it's it's like, you know, like the thing is the work my Advice. It's it's not a message of joy, it's a it's a message of division. It's not a message of love. It's a message of hate.
And it's like and so I'm like, I'm like, like, you know, let's.
I don't know, I'm I'm in favor of like, let's have a future that's got more love more like more and let let us build a fun, exciting future. And and and the work by Advice is all about condemning one group and condemning this condemning that it's like and and and and it's also like just being like it just wants to scold.
You all the time and and treat you like a you know, I don't know if who wants to be scolded? You know, it's not fun. So anyway, I think we wanna you know, have a like. So I guess at its heart, my concern is that the coin virus is anti.
Civilizational, end of civilization, anti civilization.
I think it suld.
But if it represents a cost for your company, what's you know, you have a trade off between the cost of your position and and the cost for the company.
What's your choice?
And what how much is important in your behavior? The free speech standing, that's the question.
But I do think free speech is incredibly important because if people cannot speak their minds and then we won't have a democracy. Democracy is the foundation of democracy is freedom of speech.
But also saying something.
Y so and Andrea is laughing at that because he knows that it's so important for you. But tell me more about the free speech because here is very important person here couldn't speech for a lot of people because they were considered with the Mavericks and worse than that, free speech for everybody is important, not just for the person who say the right things erect.
Exactly, no, no, exactly. Free speech means that the free speech is only relevant.
Free speech is only meaningful when if you allow people you don't like to say things you don't like.
So that's how you know it's working. That's how you know it's working, because.
Once you start to censor people you don't like saying things you don't like, it's only a matter of time before that censorship turns on you eventually, you know, live.
By the sword, die by the sword. Live by censorship, die by censorship.
Hey, Giovanni Krushian comminity, coming from.
Bloom, I got to see what's.
Even why you spoke about free speech.
You're both Twitter for this free speech, just for the free speech, not for the business inside you both.
Yeah yeah, well I mean he here's the thing.
So, you know, I think you have to say, like, if civilization is not strong, if civilization doesn't grow, then nothing else matters. You know, profits doesn't matter. If civilization collapses, there's there's no profits, there's no you know, we were not we cannot exist absence civilization. So sometimes people may say, like, well, is this an altruistic thing. I mean, I think it's
for me, it feels altruistic. But even if it's even if one is not altruistic, even if one is very self centered, you have to say, if you simply think long term, you have to be pro civilization because you cannot exist without civilization.
How important from zero to ten in the sky? From zero to ten money you are the richest.
Person in the world. How is important money for you? From zero to ten? Zero is the less important, and then that is the good one.
I don't know. I don't want to one or two or something.
Now, come on, no, I mean just one of them.
Well, I mean the reason I guess I have what so called wealth or it's really just shares in the company, is that I've created these companies, you know, in these companies like SpaceX and Tesla.
Tesla's one hundred and forty thousand.
Jobs direct wide, and five times that number, maybe maybe almost a million jobs when you look at the whole supply chain is what tells us created. And then SpaceX is is about fifteen thousand people. And also you know,
like maybe full total supply chain fifteen thousand people. So you know, I mean, I basically with the help of many talented people built these companies and then the circle These wealth statistics simply they simply add up what the ownership is in the companies and say, okay, this is a certain amount of money, but I don't actually have that in money, I have it in stock. Just it's just it said that the companies have succeeded.
But how was the last loanch of the SpaceX?
That me something last question, please Jomini the last lounch, I see that are sitting on the floor. Why are you sitting on the floor? Are you worried about the highness?
How was the last launch? Was you were optimist about your space X?
The yeah, so we'll Starship.
So the exciting thing about Starship is that it's the first rocket design that could make life multiplanetary, that could enable a self sustaining base on the Moon and a city on Mars. So because it is it's not just a very large vehicle, but it is designed for full and rapid reusability, So that would lower the cost of access to space by I don't know, maybe one hundred or more. And so, and basically it's the it's the first rocket that is capable of building a base on Mars and a base on the Moon.
Yes, that's that's that's yeah. So you know, you know, there's the.
The great Italian physicist Enrico Fermi. I'm a big admirer of Furmi, and he had he was very good at asking profound questions. And one of his questions, which is called the Fermi paradox, is where are the aliens? And one of the explanations is that, And perhaps I think the one that I think is most appears to be most accurate is that consciousness is extremely rare. That it's you know, we people often ask me, have I do I know about aliens or something like that, you know,
asked that a lot. And the crazy thing is that I've seen no evidence of aliens whatsoever. This this means that I think, most likely, at least in this part of the galaxy, we are the only consciousness that exists. And so you can think of human consciousness really as like a tiny candle in a vast to darkness, and we must do everything we can to ensure that the candle does not go out.
That's great.
We can finish with that. We can finish with that. Even okay, we can finish with this, and so, so.
It's worth reading about the Fermi paradox, and because people have thought very hard about.
This, because there are these because one of the things is like, well maybe they.
Are these great filters, and and and and these civilizations don't pass these filters.
One of the filters is do we become a multiplanet species or not.
If we do not become a multiplanet species, then eventually, at some point something will happen to the planet. Either it will be uh man made or it will be something natural, like a media or like whatever killed the dinosaurs, for example. And then eventually the sun will actually expand and we'll destroy all life on Earth.
So if one cares about life on Earth at all, we.
Should care about becoming a multiplanet species and eventually going out there and becoming a multi stellar species and having many star systems. You know, we want the exciting parts of science fiction to not be fiction forever. We want to make them real.
And yeah, great, thanks for listening.
See you in the next episode.