¶ Intro
Ellie: Hi everyone, I'm APM Ambassador Ellie Cole and today we will be discussing visual impairment and the vital role of accessibility in both in employment and in everyday life. I'm so delighted to introduce you to today's guest Ayesha and her beautiful seeing eye dog, Princess, and together we're going to explore the unique barriers faced by individuals with visual impairments in the workplace and discuss practical steps that employers can take to create more inclusive environments.
We'll also touch on the importance of community support and awareness in making public spaces accessible for everyone. Ayesha, thank you so much for joining us today and bringing along a very special guest as well. Princess, who is still awake but I don't think will be by the end, not because of the content of the conversation, because it's a very relaxing environment to be in. Are you able to introduce your name, your age and your role at APM?
Ayesha: So my name is Ayesha Patterson. I'm 32 and I'm a LAC Community Capacity Builder at APM Communities.
Ellie: Now tell us about where you grew up.
Ayesha: I grew up in Mandurah, which is south of Perth. Lived there my whole life and I still live there. It's great because you can be close to Perth to get to and from, but you're not in the city.
Ellie: Yeah. And what was it like growing up there?
Ayesha: Everyone knows everyone so, and you kind of have that environment now, with my work, people come in and are like “hi, Ayesha” and they go, “how do you know that person?” I'm like, “oh, you know went to high school with them or, did some community work with them.”
¶ Going to school with a vision impairment
Which is kind of cool.
Ellie: And, tell me about what it was like going to school in Mandurah. Did you go to a school that helped you with your vision impairment or what was your schooling like?
Ayesha: My schooling, I went to a private school. But I didn't advertise that I had disability. I had very good vision at the time that I thought, but even though I could hardly see anything, and I just wasn't accepting of the disability, it took me a while to accept. So I wore magnifying glasses because glasses were cool.
Ellie: Glasses were cool?
Ayesha: Yeah.
Ellie: That's a bit backwards from what I grew up with.
Ayesha: I know. And I would borrow my friend's notes and everything just so I could still do school and I learned how to listen a lot. Yeah, I didn't use any equipment or anything until after high school.
Ellie: So it sounds like when you were growing up, even with a disability, you really learned how to adapt to your surroundings very, very quickly and just to make things work.
Ayesha: Yeah.
Ellie: Yeah, I think it’s a really amazing skill to have, and I think a lot of people in the communities are really starting to identify a lot of the strengths that people with disabilities have. And, you know, there's so many stories like yours where you have difficulty navigating some things in everyday life, but you just happen to find a way around it. And it sounds like you had friends there that helping you with your notes.
Ayesha: Yeah, they did, but that was my stubborn stage.
Ellie: Yeah. You mentioned before, it was a little better when you were younger?
Ayesha: Yeah. So my vision has been getting worse as I've gotten older. It will lead to complete blindness. So the condition I have, the cells in my retina are dying. So all the ones that are in charge of your peripheral vision, night vision, color, depth. And then I have cataracts over the top as well. So that makes life interesting.
Ellie: I bet it does. Do you have memory, when you were younger, of ever being able to see clearly, or is it something that has been degrading since you were a young child?
Ayesha: Before I was four so one of those random circumstances, I was bitten by a Redback (spider) and I didn't get the anti-venom, and it caused the eye condition. So before that, yeah, I can remember seeing stuff.
Ellie: What was it like for you to grow up and go to school with a disability? You said that you were very good at camouflaging it for a while, but I'm sure the penny dropped eventually.
Ayesha: Oh, yes. The penny did drop with a lot of people. But I've just met up recently with a school reunion, and I turned up there with my seeing eye dog, and they're like, really? You're blind? What? We had no idea. And then other people, like, yeah, we knew. But yeah, it wasn't until after I left high school that I would, I actually, you know, accepted my disability and said, stuff it, I don't care what people think. And it was the best thing I ever did.
Ellie: Yeah, absolutely. I think, it's really empowering to get to that point as well. And I heard you mentioned before that it took you a while to accept having a disability yourself. Let alone sharing that information with the rest of the world, which, you know, you should only do so if you feel like you're in a comfortable and safe environment to be able to do that.
¶ Self-acceptance and sport
So what was it like for you to, take the time and digest that information and come to terms with the fact that you did have a disability and come to terms with accepting that part of yourself as well.
Ayesha: It was the best thing I ever did. And, you know, accepting that, because now, like, everything that's happened in my life is, mainly because of I have a disability, which is great. It's led to lots of opportunities, and being able to share and empower and advocate for others has been great. And also for myself.
Ellie: What kind of opportunities are you speaking to you when you say that having a disability has led to a lot of opportunities in your life?
Ayesha: So it led to me to be able to travel around Australia a lot, because I got to represent WA with sport.
Ellie: Really? You're an athlete?
Ayesha: Past. I’m injured, so I don’t do sport now.
Ellie: I can't believe you've waited 15 minutes to tell me you're an athlete.
Ayesha: Yeah, so I used to do goalball and then tenpin bowling.
Ellie: So how did you become involved in the goalball team? I know quite a few of the girls.
Ayesha: I was looking for something to do, and a sport, something to keep me busy. And this youth person, who’s in Blind Sports Australia, WA here. Was like, we've got this sport, we're looking for female people, do you want to come and have a go? And I went up to Perth and watched it and I was hooked like straight away. And then competed and represented WA and all that from 2012 to 2015.
Ellie: Incredible. Did you ever make the Australian team?
Ayesha: No, almost.
Ellie: And then you became injured?
Ayesha: Yeah.
Ellie: I'm not surprised to hear that you became injured because from my experience playing goalball and from what I've seen, it is brutal.
Ayesha: It is. Ayesha: Yeah. At the time, there was only 4 or 5 women, so we were competing against the guys every training session, which was very chaotic. And then yeah, took up tenpin bowling from 2016 to 2020.
Ellie: As someone who had joined an inclusive sporting team in terms of goalball as well as your tenpin bowling, what was like that like for you to be able to step into a whole new community there based on sports?
Ayesha: It was amazing to people to not think about disability because we all had different disabilities. A lot of people would forget they actually had a disability, which is awesome. And then having the confidence in your coach to be able to say you can compete against other people, it was really cool. I found it really interesting.
Ellie: Just then when you said a lot of people forget that they had a disability, because in my experience, I forget all the time. It's it's fascinating to have a difference or impairment, and it's almost like you yourself don't feel any differently until someone else tells you that you are.
Ayesha: Yeah.
Ellie: And so when you step into a team or a place that's really inclusive, no one's telling you that you are different. And it can be really empowering. Don’t you think?
Ayesha: It’s so empowering, yeah. I find that with my role at APM as well, being capacity builder, I'm making sure that the community is accessible and also people with disabilities, they feel empowered and I had someone come up to me last week, they had a full conversation with me, and they never did that before, you know, 12 months ago, which was amazing.
Ellie: Yeah, that's really nice to hear.
¶ Princess the seeing eye dog
Now I see that you've brought Princess along here today. You have a seeing eye dog. What role does Princess play in your day-to-day life?
Ayesha: What doesn’t she do? She's my sidekick.
Ellie: She guided you in pretty well today.
Ayesha: Yeah. She's my eyes. Literally. If I didn't have her, I would be banging into stuff and, she gives me a lot of independence to be able to get out and about.
Ellie: What was your life like before Princess came into your life? What is it like now that she's in your life?
Ayesha: So there was a gap between the two dogs because she's my second dog, and I was on a waitlist for four years. Between the two dogs and going from full independence, having a dog to going back to my cane, and having to relearn how to use a cane, and then also having my eyesight, you know, go down quite a lot in that space. I noticed that I wasn't doing a lot of stuff, what I used to do. I would rely heavily on friends and support just to be able to go out and about.
Ellie: Yeah.
and meet up with a friend for a coffee, or go up to Perth for a favourite activity, me or my friends would go to Fringe Festival. So, you know, this year I was actually able to meet her at a really nice place and go to the theatre which was great.
Ellie: Walking throughout your community, accessing the communities, what’s some of the biggest challenges that you face, just in day-to-day living?
Ayesha: A lot of people try and pat her while I'm giving commands or walking, which can distract her and me. I call them ninja patters, because they just quickly put their hand down and try and pat, and then they walk off. So yeah, me, my friends, we call them ninja patters. And then the other issues I have a lot is taxis and Ubers. Unfortunately, a lot of them refuse.
I've had some try and put the dog in the boot of the car, or they see the dog and they drive past, which is it's always an ongoing issue all over Australia, unfortunately, refusals for taxis and Ubers.
Ellie: I've heard of a lot of experiences and, and I've read a lot of, I've seen a lot of media about that as well. About people that use seeing eye dogs trying to access any kind of transport, and the difficulties that they face with that, and that can be really challenging and a huge barrier for people to be able to access communities as well.
Ayesha: Yes, totally. But buses and trains, they’re great, you know.
Ellie: Yeah.
Ayesha: Or you find a really good taxi driver like I have at home, and he picks me up for work, drops me off at home.
¶ Challenges and misconceptions
Ellie: What about some of the challenges that you face day-to-day just living with a vision impairment?
Ayesha: I try and not look at it as challenges, or limitations, like limits. But I try to come away with solutions. But the most frustrating thing is trying to find the right top or the right pair of shoes. Normally I wear, multi-colored flats, Mary Jane shoes, and the other day, my friend goes, you realise you're wearing the two different shoes, and I'm like, oh, oopsies.
Ellie: I'm sure she understands.
Ayesha: Yeah, so we've run back into the house and, you know, we found the other shoe, but it's just hilarious.
Ellie: You know what? I've actually done that quite a few times myself because I don't have a vision impairment, but when I go to bed, I leave a shoe on my prosthetic. And then when I was an athlete, I used to wake up in the middle of the night almost to go to swimming training. So I would get change in the dark. So I guess it is similar.
And because I already had a shoe on my foot, I would just grab what I thought would be the right shoe, and the amount of times I went to training with two different shoes on because I couldn't feel the difference in the shoes either, one of my feet was plastic, so it's quite common.
Ayesha: Yeah.
Ellie: What are the assumptions that people make about vision impairments that’s the most common, the most common things that you see people make assumptions about?
Ayesha: I think the biggest assumption is that they think that everyone with vision impairment can read Braille, and I don't, and a lot of people in the community actually don't read Braille. Some a lot of people do, but not everyone.
¶ Finding work with vision impairment
Ellie: When you were growing up, what was it like for you to be able to access employment?
Ayesha: Because I know in my community where I grew up in Victoria, everybody wanted a job at the age of 14. And, you know, it was pretty difficult for me to even get a job with a physical impairment.
Ellie: For you, what was it like trying to gain employment when you were able to enter the workforce?
Ayesha: It was so challenging. Yeah. It took me forever to get jobs. And then I would have to go to TAFE, do all the qualifications, and then you go and try to find a job, you put the interview in, and then the biggest barrier was, do you have a driver's license? So I'm like, no, why would I have a driver's license? You don't want me driving? And then as soon as you'd tick no, that would be it, you know?
And before APM I was working, I was able to find casual employment for non-for-profits, but a lot of the mainstream, event management work, as soon as you turned up to the interview with a cane or seeing eye dog, they would go nope, sorry, we've already filled the position or, you know, you didn't have a driver's license, so we've given it to the other person, even though we've done the qualifications together, just really, really sad.
And having that knockback, it, quite affected my mental health. And it's also affected other people's mental health with, you know, the whole applying for jobs. But, I was lucky I managed to get a job at APM Communities, through volunteering and then customised employment, which has been great, that the customised employment, has come about. There's a lot of people now with disabilities can actually get a job.
Ellie: And these types of people that you're speaking about that have been able to secure employment through the customised employment that APM do. They're the people that you were speaking about before, who you know, were being knocked back for jobs and it was affecting their mental health.
Ayesha: Yeah, well, I was able to get the job through customised employment. And I've met two other people, who have managed to get customised employment not just through APM, but other organisations. It's been great.
Ellie: So what was that process like for you to find APM and then to go through the customised employment to be able to secure a job. What was that process like, walk me through? How you found it, what it was like for you to go through that process, how you felt going through that process?
Ayesha: It was very exciting but daunting at the same time. So I was volunteering on a project, that runs they wanted people with disabilities, to help run this project, which I ended up overtaking and running it completely, which was amazing. But so came into volunteering and then the community capacity builder at the time, APM manager was like, are you looking? I was talking to him and he said, oh, you're looking for a job?
And I said, yes, because the casual employment that I had, you know, the grant had just run out. He goes, oh, send me for your résumé and, a list of your skills and experiences and I sent him through, like, a three page, word document. And he goes “how have you done all that in your whole life?” And I was like, yeah. Cause, you know, you volunteer and keep yourself busy. He goes, oh, okay, I'll send it through to some people and see if they're looking for anyone.
And the next minute I got a phone call from, lovely lady Penny and Kerri.
Ellie: How did that moment feel when, if you think back to a few years ago, fast forward to receiving that phone call two months after your interview and then being offered that role. Did that feel like so liberating for you?
Ayesha: Oh yeah, after I got the phone call I hung up and, I did a little dance on the spot and it was full on wooing and rang my mum straight away at work and she's like, I'm currently at work. I'm like, “I got a job, I got a job”, but she's like, okay. And you know, we went out and celebrated because it was the first time, you know, someone had looked at skills and experiences and created a job, which is amazing.
Ellie: Yeah. It's incredible. When you just explained that you had done a little dance and that you were so excited, like I could just see in your body, then just how excited you were that feeling that you had. It must reinforce just how important it is for you to be able to provide that for other people through APM, right?
Ayesha: Yeah, I, I'm very excited with what I do at APM, and every day is different. Probably the biggest achievement was last year. City of Mandurah won the accessibility awards and I was able to help them win those awards, which was amazing. With all the work done to, with other people with disabilities, to make the town and city more accessible. It's incredibly empowering.
¶ Workplace accommodations
Ellie: What kind of accommodations did APM make to the workplace in order for you to be able to flourish at work, if any?
Ayesha: So the biggest accommodation is that they made sure I had enough desk space for me and Princess. So we have a corner desk. So I have one side of the desk and she has the other side. So we're not running over her paws or banging into her. Gave me a tour of the whole office, so I knew where everything was. And then, so like if there's anything you need, or we need to make more accessible. So I put tactile markings on the microwave, so. And the tea and the sugar and the coffee.
So that was really good that they let me just go in and tactile the on and off power buttons for the microwave and, made sure that I had a space where I can toilet Princess. So I've got a screen reader, JAWS, I had to learn how to use JAWS on my computer.
Ellie: JAWS?
Ayesha: Yeah. Ayesha: Job Access with Speech. Ayesha: It's a screen reader. So if you opened up my work laptop, it would start talking to you straight away.
Ellie: You've mentioned before, the independence that Princess has given you to your life. But how has employment changed your life?
Ayesha: Gives me a purpose to get up and have a schedule instead of just lazing around and doing nothing, or going. “Oh, I might do this today,” but actually, I've got work, you know, three days a week. It's been great to be able to also have the money aspect as well, which has been great. But yeah, having that set schedule and having a work life balance has been amazing.
¶ Basic inclusion tips
Ellie: If a workplace, an organisation, a company want to make their place more inclusive for people with vision impairments, what are the the things that they need to be considering?
Ayesha: So one of the easiest things would be, you know, if someone walks into your workplace, actually introduce yourself instead of just assuming that they know what they're doing or if they are actually in the right building. And there's been a few times where I've gone, is this the right building? And saying a person like, you know, hello, I'm so-and-so. Instead of just started talking automatically. So I've been a few times where someone will come up to me.
I have no idea who they are, but I've just continued talking. And then my friend goes, do you know who I am? I have no idea. And just voicing directions, a lot of people gesture or say, oh, this way, that way. But I think having specific directions and allowing the person to get lost if they need to, sometimes getting lost is the best way to find your way unfortunately.
Ellie: It's also a great metaphor for life.
Ayesha: And yeah, just don't assume like, a person might walk in with vision impairment, but they might be having a good day and they might be able to see you or, they might be having a bad day. Or they might have different fields of vision. So they might be looking away from you, but they're actually seeing you.
¶ Accessible communities
Ellie: So if you were to live in a perfect world where it was completely accessible for you, I'm thinking about what communities can do better to support others with vision impairments. What would a perfect community look like for you?
Ayesha: Perfect community. Something where you can go into somewhere that's fully accessible. Not many people are going to stare at you or go, you know, you have a disability. What are you doing here? Because that still happens.
Ellie: So a lot of cultural change?
Ayesha: Yeah, a lot of culture change, and yeah, we’re really good with the infrastructure changing. But I think yeah, a lot of attitude and culture I think needs to change. To make it not for just people with vision impairment, but anyone with a disability, and you would find that too.
Ellie: I do. But do you find it’s changing for the better? The more that people are becoming aware and educated around disability?
Ayesha: Yeah. You know, and I think, social media has played a huge role in that because, you know, back in the early 2000s, late 2000s, you didn't have social media or people out in the community with a disability. So, and now it's a NDIS made the news, you know, and then you've got people with disabilities out in the community, running their own businesses or, running their own social media accounts, which is great.
Ellie: Tell me about your role at APM. What does that involve exactly?
Ayesha: So it's two facets of community capacity building. So one is creating projects in the community to help build people skills and experience that have a disability. And then the other part is going to local governments and making them be more accessible and inclusive, and making sure that they can understand about disability, but also NDIS.
So is that more policy or is that making the actual government organisations more accessible internally?
Ayesha: Internally. But also, just changing their attitudes and the way that they think about, disability, kind of lucky in Mandurah that the person who’s the Community Access Inclusion officer, she actually has a disability, she's in a wheelchair and she, she gets it, but she contacts me and, like, “how can we make this event more accessible?” And the biggest one was, last year, this big, huge event called Crab Fest. And it's probably the biggest festival that Mandurah has.
And I was able to help the whole events team for the City of Mandurah make their event more inclusive. You know, there was about four of us all lived experience with disability. I think that was the great, take that they listened to actual people with disabilities.
Ellie: If we look at, businesses who want to employ someone with a visual impairment,
¶ Advice for employing someone with a vision impairment
what advice would you give to a business that wants to support people with vision impairments who are either working there, or maybe you want to engage someone with a vision impairment to work there?
Ayesha: Don't be scared of employing someone with vision impairment or disability. Look at their skills and try and accommodate or arrange, ways that the person can still do their job, and not, you know, give them a task that they can't actually achieve. So someone who's completely blind, you know, you don't want them to create a visual pin up board.
Ellie: And also if they're wearing different shoes, just go with it. Well we really do want to thank you so much for coming in today. I have learned so much about vision impairments and I know that the rest of the world is also going to learn so much from this video, so I really appreciate your time and your insights today. I really do appreciate you coming in.
Ayesha: Thank you.