NikNak - Turntablism

Caro C Hello and welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast about Electronic Music and all things synth. I'm Caro C and in this episode I'm talking to British turntable artist NikNak. With numerous releases and collaborations including multi-speaker live concerts, NikNak was the winner of the Oram Award in 2020. NikNak strives to deliver groundbreaking sonic experiences through improvised techniques and spatial electronic music production. We'll start with a taste of NikNak's music. This is an extract from a track on Sankofa, an album that came out of exploring surround sound turntablism. MUSIC Caro C So today I'm excited to talk to NikNak. Welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast. NikNak Hello. Caro C Really looking forward to talking to you today. Your name has been on my radar for a while, especially when you were given one of the Oram awards. NikNak Thank you very much. Caro C You seems like you do many things and you kind of carving out your own creative niche, which is great and I just wondered if you could sort of unpack in your own way, what you feel you're doing. NakNak What I feel I do? Yeah, you're right, I do many, many things, it's often hard to kind of truncate that. So I am a turntablist, a DJ, I also produce and make soundscapes. I'm a sound artist and I also do bits in radio as well, like putting together shows, hosting shows and run events and I'm probably missing out some other bits too. Sound designer has kind of become one of the many hats and composer too. So yeah, many, almost too many hats. Caro C Yeah, I hear you. Keeps things interesting, doesn't it? NikNak Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Caro C So can you unpack the turntablist bit? I've got my perception of what it is but I'd be interested to hear yours. NikNak Yeah. So it's essentially using turntables as an instrument, so whenever I've run like workshops and things, another thing, workshop leader, I will often say that like, there's kind of, there's more than one way that we're kind of used to or have experienced turntables. The most kind of traditional way is like you buy a record, you have a turntable to play it on, and then you play it on and you play on it and then that's it. Then you have people who are like, Pierre Schaeffer or Christian Marclay and stuff who've done more experimental stuff and then one of the more popular kind of connections to it is via hip hop, so Grandmaster Flash, Kool Herc, DJ shadow, etc. And me being a massive sponge, I just kind of was like, all right, well, I'm interested in all of that, so let's go and kind of learning about it in and outside of uni’, I've been able to kind of just make my own, I don't know, worlds with it, basically. Caro C And what kind of music do you like to have as your source material then? NikNak Sometimes it's like sounds that I've recorded, so whether it's like on the phone and I'm on a train or something and it's like, that's a really interesting thing to just play around with, or it's something more musical that I've maybe written. There's like scratch samples that a lot of DJs and turntablists will use whenever they're like gigging. So there's like movie quotes or whatever that are very popular and well known. I'll kind of chuck them in there sometimes. It kind of depends on what it is that I'm doing and the context and stuff, but yeah, a variety of different samples I'll use basically, yeah. Caro C And does that tend to be self driven, as in, I want to make a piece around a particular theme or sound, or is it more that it tends to be commissions - you'll be commissioned to come up with a piece or a performance? NikNak A mixture of both. So for example, my most recent album, Sankofa as of this recording was kind of inspired by a period of time that I had on an R&D called Sound Generator and I wanted to look at surround sound turntablism and what that means outside of academia because for a chunk of time, that was the only place that I could really research it and do it, in terms of a performance. So that time I found myself really becoming interested in Afrofuturism and like, I'm a big nerd as well so like comic books started to come into it and then from the research and everything came the album. So it ended up being a really natural process, that I also had the support from Sound UK at the time to kind of put together and create. But then my first kind of, my first album, Bashi, which came out in 2020, it was very much like I have these sound recordings that I've manipulated at a performance live, so how do I turn that into something to release? I had some support there as well, where there's an initiative in Leeds called, Music Leeds or like Launchpad and I was one of the artists on there at the time and my mentor at the time just said, you could just cut up your performance and release them as tracks and then you have an EP or an album. And I was like, oh yeah, that's a really good, that's a, that's clever, OK let's do that. So it really, it just depends on what it is. Like sometimes the idea won't come to me until very late on. Sometimes it's like, oh yeah, I definitely know what I'm doing with that, it varies a lot of the time, which again keeps it very exciting and random in a good way. Caro C Yeah. There's a couple of questions I want to ask on that. The first one is, thank goodness for these organisations that can support us now, because, you know, when I started out 25 years ago they weren't there as far as I concerned. To be fair, Generator was there in the Northeast of England, but beyond that, there's just, there's so much more now, isn't there and that makes such a difference when you're starting out. NikNak Yeah, I think, you know, I'm not sure how long a lot of these organisations and collectives and things have been going, but the fact that there are like lots of call outs and funding pots and things that people can apply for and just go, I have an idea for this and I'd like to really do it, you know, what are you saying? It means that there's a nice kind of ever-changing landscape of music and it doesn't have to feel so like, you know, the only support that you'll get is if you do this certain kind of genre or, I don't know, make a certain kind of music or whatever. Caro C Or go to a certain university, or have a certain amount of income already, or money already to rest on, kind of thing, as you build your craft. NikNak Exactly, not gonna lie, there are still people that are in that kind of bracket and they're still doing those things. But, you know, for other people that are just wanting to try things out and do things their way, there is more of like a support for that, which is really great. Caro C Yeah. I think I have to say also in terms of the UK, I think we're quite well, it's not brilliant, it's not perfect, but we're definitely well equipped than a lot more countries I'm aware of that just don't have that kind of support. So yes, thank goodness for that. The other thing I wanted to mention was do you get into some kind of copyright quagmire when you're talking, when you're going from performance to releasing turntablist pieces? NikNak So with that, that's quite interesting because so when it's my own project, like an EP or an album or something, I will like endeavour to use the sounds that I've recorded. It won't be like sampled from somewhere else just because like I, you know, while yes, there are funding pots and things, I don't have like all of that money to go and pay somebody for using their stuff. Like should things change in such a way where I am able to, then absolutely and then I'll have that conversation with the people. But as it stands right now, it's like, no, I'm happy and I guess that's where the sound design element kind of comes in, cause I'll just make the sound if possible and mess about with it on turntables or I'll just record, I don't know, the rain or the sea. Plus, like, there are a lot of, like, royalty free samples as well that you can source from the internet. There's places like Splice and things. So it's, again, like, your library can grow and it not feel like you’re particularly restrained because of certain, things like sampling or whatever, because of things like Splice and other such libraries and royalty free things. But on the whole, I do endeavour to just create everything myself. Caro C Yeah, that's a definite two stage process at least because you've kind of got the collecting of the sounds, the pre-production, if you like, of the sounds and then you've got almost the turntable becomes your controller or a sampler. Is that right? Does that sound about right? NikNak Yeah, in a way. Yeah, like, so I use Serato and they have, I think with a lot of places now, like even with Pioneer and Rekordbox and Traktor and stuff, like there's these options to use the DJ software as a form of DAW. So recently Serato announced, is it Serato stems? And it's like, you can produce with that, that you can make your own acapellas and things and like do all of this crazy stuff with it. So yeah, I am in agreement with you with that, like it can be more like there's pre-production and other bits and pieces going into it before you even really started making the thing. So yeah, it's quite interesting at the minute, all of this like tech changes and stuff. It's pretty cool. Caro C Yeah. So what has been your kind of trajectory so far in terms of tech? Did you start off on a little, I just remember this Fisher Price record player I loved when I was a kid, you know, how's that, how's that to develop to the kit you're using now? NikNak A lot of it has been through like trial and error. Like I started off with a controller, just primarily for DJing. I didn't really have any, like, I don't know, like an NPC or whatever when I was younger, although one did come to me years later, so it was either I had the controller and then in terms of making beats and stuff, I was either using a Playstation game called Music 2000, which will forever hold a special place in my heart because it's a game, but it's not because it's like, it's a door, let's not mess about. So like there was that one, there was a dance EJ and virtual DJ and stuff, which you could get the CD ROMs on cereal boxes at the time and they were all different colours, so my family were like, we need to get Nick all of these and you know, starting off with all of that stuff and then at school we had Fruity Loops or FL Studio now, cause they've grown up. And then it kind of went from there, so like all of those things and then going into college was, like Reason and then learning about like working in a studio, the different microphones and polar patterns and things like that and then uni was when I got my first turntable, which is a Neumark TT, I believe it was like a silver one. And like, I was interested in DJing, but I didn't really know, sorry, I was interested in scratching, but I didn't really know how to do it and then there was like elements that kind of just happened while I was doing my undergrad that really made me go, oh I'm going to do this and like I had friends at the time who could all scratch and I became part of like a hip hop DJ kind of group called Bug Out who DJ'd on Friday nights at a bar that I used to work at and I was like, oh okay, I want to, I really like, I just like, I'd be collecting glasses and then I'd peek over the DJ booth and just stare while they're just like scratching, like, Oh my God, this is mad and then like move on, carry on with my shift, like, oh yeah, I'm working and then that kind of built from there to then finding a 1210 in my mom's shed and then buying another 1210 off of my mate for like, for not a lot of money. And I now have those two and then having a Numark mixer, then kind of upgrading that to a Pioneer one and having a Kaoss Pad and it was just trying a lot of different things and my setup now looks very different, although it's still kind of similar to what I initially started out with because there's still that kind of game element, plus there's lots of bright colours. Caro C So what is your current kit then, your current setup? NikNak So it's a Pioneer S7 mixer, two 1210s, my laptop and with the S7, there's a lot of effects inbuilt anyway, so it kind of connects up with Serato and then, you know, more effects kind of become available to you. I still have my Kaoss Pad. I've also got a Maschine. I love my Kaoss Pad. Caro C Yeah. Still rocking the Kaoss Pad. NikNak Yeah. Every now and then I will just kind of connect that up as well and then just go, what, look at all this! And I have, when I'm doing my more immersive stuff, I have a Focusrite interface but that lets me use up to 20 speakers and I use Ableton primarily for that as well but I mainly produce in Logic, but doing the kind of live immersive stuff, I'll use Ableton and with that, I use an Akai APC M MK2. Yes, if I got that wrong, I'm so sorry Akai but I use that as well to kind of trigger everything and all the rest of it but yeah, that's my setup at this point, but I want to expand it because I like colours and buttons. MUSIC Caro C Yeah. So tell us a bit about the immersive stuff. I know, yeah, you've been working in that field more and I know what you mean about the university side of things. Did a performance once through the beautiful B-system in Birmingham and you're like, but when am I ever going to get to perform this outside of academia? So tell us more about your immersive work. NikNak So that kind of started off in my undergrad, kind of got introduced to immersive forms of music making or like, you know, listening to music outside of like, just watching a film at the cinema. Shout out to Pete Batchelor and all the guys there at DMU because, yeah, that course really blew my mind. So I got introduced to it there and then it kind of just stuck with me for a while, while I was still trying to figure out what it is I wanted to do and then in my master's in Leeds, I wanted to look at it in more depth. So I kind of combined like Max MSP with Serato and my setup at the time and kind of just looked at how I can potentially DJ in a surround sound setting. So I had like a, was it a foot pedal, yeah it was a foot pedal that would like move everything around while I was like choosing stuff, choosing specific tracks to play and then I even did an event where I invited friends at the time who were also like producers and DJs and stuff to just plug in their bit of kit and I would diffuse their stuff accordingly and people, it was really interesting to see how people were reacting because there were no chairs in the Clothworkers Hall, so people would like, sit behind us, like there was a table in the middle of the room, so people would sit behind us or they'd sit in front of us. There was like a mezzanine as well that people would kind of like go up to and just like look down on just to hear the difference in the sound there as well. People were lying down and everything and when that event finished, cause I was kind of like, yeah, is it going okay, when we finished the audience were like, when's the next one, cause that was awesome. And stuff like that. I was like, ah OK. And so fast forward a couple of years and I hear about Sound Generator and just thought, right, well, I've only really been looking at this during my studies and I know that there are venues that have the capability of doing surround sound events, whether they've done it in the past or not, because a lot of venues will have like more than one stereo pair of speakers. So through like just mapping things out on the desk or using an interface or whatever, it is possible, it’s just, it's not been, you know, not a lot of places would be like, yeah, we do this. And it also meant that like, outside of, like exhibitions or yes, this event is taking place at a university hall, it means that like you're opening up the opportunities for people to experience that kind of music in a different place too, because I don't know, it feels like when an event or when a certain artist or whatever is coming to a university, it immediately kind of draws a certain crowd, but that artist may also draw another type of crowd that maybe don't want to see them play at a university hall, because I don't know. So I was like, well, what could that look like? So got onto Sound UK, applied and had their support for six months and when they offered me the chance to tour Sankofa, part of my application was saying about how I'd want to look at this outside of academia, so performing in spaces where it's possible and I even tested the album and where certain sounds could go and everything like that in a venue in Leeds that had the capabilities to do that - shout out to Sheaf Street. So it was like, well, okay, it's possible. So let's do this. And then, yeah, when Sound UK were like, we'd love to tour it if that's okay with you, I was like, yeah let's do this. So then, you know, we did I think it was five or six dates around the UK in July 2022 and that was such a really like, welcoming experience in that like, it is possible to tour this like, it's not, and you can tour this in venues that actually have the system and have the capabilities, it's just about talking to people about it and if it can work out, great, if I need to bring my interface, OK, I'll bring it, if I don't need to bring it, that's also cool. And then yeah, after the tour, we did some dates in Cambridge, in Birmingham, actually on the B-system. Caro C Beautiful, isn't it? NikNak It's so good, it’s awesome. Yeah, it was a lot of fun playing there. Caro C Shout out to Ani Matani who designed it and put it all together, didn't she? NikNak Yes, shout out and big thanks. And it just meant that like, yeah, it's entirely possible like, there's no need to feel like it isn't possible, because it is. And like I say, like these were like venues that have like, I don't know, like, a variety of nights. Some of them more varied than others, but it is possible. So that really just kind of stuck with me. And then you know, I also had like some DYCP monies from our arts council, which helped me to kind of really dig into that some more and then, you know, earlier this year, I was commissioned by the Richard Thomas Foundation to make a piece on the Monom system with 4D sound. Cause yeah, they came to, he literally came to my Sankofa show at King's Place and gave me a card and was like, oh you know, really have to talk to you a bit more about stuff. I was like, yeah sure, OK. And I was just flustered, cause I was like, I've just done this performance, what? And, you know, people were lots of people coming to talk to me. I get flustered a bit afterwards. I was like, oh gosh, okay, people, hello and stuff, but then, yeah, we had a conversation and that led to us being commissioned, went to Amsterdam, worked on the 4D system there and kind of, I had some idea of the sounds going back to like the earlier questions. I had some ideas of sounds and like melodies and things I wanted to play with, but I wasn't sure how, because it was going to be way more immersive than I had done other performances and other music on previously, so I had to really think about like, oh OK, it's more about objects and where they're going to be placed as opposed to stereo pairs, you know, in front of you, behind you, etc. So, you know, I spent three days there kind of building the piece and placing where I wanted sounds to go and then interacting with turntables as well on that too and then I performed it on May 1st and it was really cool to just really properly get a sense of like, oh this is immersive, like not to say the other stuff wasn't, but this is like a new level now and to be able to kind of link it up with turntablism in my own way was really special for me. And yeah, people afterwards were like yeah, it felt like I was being washed in the sound. I was like, exactly, that's what I wanted. Yes, it was just really, really special I think and so like, I've kind of become a little bit obsessed with doing immersive stuff, like I'm always looking at like, is there some immersive like plugins or stuff, can I get? But it's like a new form of expression for me because I can be doing all kinds of crazy movements on turntables and scratching and stuff, but to also have that be mirrored in where everything is coming from, I think is and how like everyone in the room, including me is responding to it live in that moment, I think is really, really special, so yeah. Caro C Yeah. Talking about Logic. I really like the, this is more binaural, but still within the headphone world, it's immersive, the D-reality stuff and the Energy Panner as well, the Sound Particles. I don't know if you've come across them? NikNak Yes, yes. I love them, I use them, I use them so much. I know Sound Particles have released like an immersive synth, which looks very interesting. I'm kind of looking at it like, all right, if I do this amount of work, then hopefully by the end of the year, I can snag that and do some mad stuff with it. But yeah, Sound Particles, Dear Reality, Envelop, or Envelope? I think it's Envelop. No, it's Envelop because Envelope has an E on the end and Envelop doesn’t, that's it. Envelop for Ableton as well is really good and they're based in San Francisco and they have like this pack of like, you can do quad panning and all of these things, it's really good. Caro C Nice, and just going back to that foot pedal, is it like, is it like imagining, is it like a joystick then that you can move things around, almost like that fluid movement, or is it noughts and ones where you're turning on and off positions, if you know what I mean? NikNak You're so, with that and bearing in mind that like my MaxMSP knowledge is very limited and it's obviously a very powerful bit of kit and like, I'm dyslexic so I was kind of like, I can't get it to do the thing but my tutor at the time was able to kind of just go, you might want to do this and do that and it's like, oh OK. But basically it meant that, yeah, pressing buttons and I had like a fade I could control with the foot pedal in terms of like pressing down and lifting back up again, sort of thing, that motion with the foot, I could control how quickly or how slowly we would fade between the settings and then I would press buttons to then go, oh we're going from setting one or shape one to shape two to shape three and that was on like an eight speaker circle array. So I could kind of, yeah, control the fade with like, is that the pitch bend, I guess? I don't play guitar, I'm really sorry, the kind of pitch-bendy motion like as if you're yeah, I'm going to stop trying to describe… Caro C Almost Wah Wah or something like that. NikNak Yeah yeah, I'm going to stop trying to like describe a foot pedal because I clearly don't play guitar Caro C Oh so it's kind of modelled on a guitar foot pedal then, that's what you're using. That's what you were using. NikNak Yeah, it was a MIDI foot pedal, I forget the specific name and brand of it, but yeah, it was a MIDI one and yeah, you could have like the wah wah pedal do that and then program buttons to do specific things in Max and then that translated to where it was going in the space, yeah. Caro C Yeah, fab and then talking about the more, the Monom side of things in terms of performing that then would you map everything beforehand? Because when you talk about the objects, that reminds me of how someone described Dolby Atmos to me. It's more thinking about things in terms of objects and where you want to place them, however, how does it work with the movement of those? Is that something you do live or is that something that's mapped before the live performance, if you know what I mean? NikNak So I chose to map it before because the piece for the Monom kind of commission was called Eternities and I wanted to make sure that like there is a level cause I improvise with 95, 99 percent of whenever I'm doing stuff, I'm improvising it. So I wanted to make sure that like, there was room for me to do that when it came time to performing it. So there were certain sounds and melodies and things that I wanted to just be there and I'm not having to think about it too much in the live setting. So, certain sounds and things would be triggered in the space, which was Stone Nest in London. Certain sounds were triggered or, samples were triggered and it was like OK, I want, so for example the bass, I'd want that to be doing like a kind of figure of eight loop around everybody, but it would kind of come in and out of the space for lack of a better phrase. So it's like, you're in the middle - I'm drawing with my hands, but you can't see me - you're like in the middle and like bass is kind of coming in like a Doppler effect, but like whenever it wants to almost, and like the, I would control like how big of a figure of eight kind of shape would I want it to be and stuff like that and then I would trigger that and just leave it. And on the Akai, I could control like volume and stuff, but ultimately once I triggered it, that was going to play for say 15 minutes and then I can control it if I want to fade out or not. And then other sounds, so for example, there was like a kind of sequenced melody going on at one point and I wanted that to kind of wash over people, so it was like, you can kind of program it so the sounds are kind of coming up and down over you. But there's a filter, so it would go in a go like, I'll try and mimic it (whistles) but as it goes up, the sound goes up as well, like in terms of like literally height, as well as its frequency range and then it would come back down again when it would go back low into the lower frequency range and stuff. And then that would just go on its own too. And again, I could control the volume on the Akai. So with that, it was more like OK, these sounds and things are happening. Some are more intense than others and things like that, or not, maybe not intense, but there's more things happening in the sound and then it's still, no matter what was going on, it still left me with enough space sonically to do my, my kind of improvising live as well on top and not feel like oh, I can't do that just then or whatever. But then when we were in Stone Nest kind of sound checking as well, there were some sounds that were maybe too bright or too kind of rich in the mid-frequency range and I don't know if you've been to Stone Nest, but it's a beautiful space. It's, I don't know what the building used to be. It's just randomly in Shaftesbury Avenue. Like how is this here? But it's like, it's a really beautiful space, but like in there in particular with some of the sounds that I wanted to use, they came across too harsh. Caro C Resonant frequencies, yeah. NikNak Yeah, yeah and it was like OK, I need to not… these sounds. I can just get rid of, because now that means I can have more space to have less harsh sounds for me to manipulate live instead and I will say as well on my mixer too, there is like other effects and EQs and things too, so there's like a whole myriad of stuff, like at my disposal. Yeah, it was, it was just great. Caro C And you're getting to a stage where, which I really love when this happens, especially for performance where you're playing the building as well. You're playing with the building, aren't you? NikNak Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was really nice to be able to kind of just react and go oh OK, so this is sounding like that now. Cool. Caro C So then the building becomes the instrument and you're the little one inside. It’s so awesome. And then what about phase? Wow. You must've had to come across fair few phase distortions that you have to work out, or do you just go with them? Or do you, have you found that an issue? Because I know with more immersive stuff that can happen. NikNak I think because we had the sound check, like a while before the actual performance, it was nice to kind of just think about, like, okay, that can maybe not be as loud or maybe I need to tweak it so, a little bit to kind of get rid of the phase, but ultimately I've not run into a situation as of yet that's really made me go oh, that is phasing a lot and trying to kind of adjust to that. It's been very like OK, yeah, it sounds great and then if there is a little bit of phasing, then it's okay. If anything in the past I've had to deal more with like the latency because like, what my movement on the turntable on the record will… is instant, but then there's like a couple seconds delay before it's heard and so I'd have to think ahead a bit more and have headphones on when I was really going to go for it, think ahead and be like OK, if I scratch in like now and it's going to come out when I want it to then OK. But, and like trying to like plan ahead can be difficult sometimes but that's kind of part of the fun in that like, I'm doing this live and I'm learning at the same time. So it's like oh, OK, the next time I do an immersive piece I will really need to think about the latency part and how I want to use that to my advantage instead of trying to like pre-program too much of what I want to do live, cause then it's like well, I'm not doing anything live then, apart from just triggering stuff. I'd rather be adding to that. Yeah. Caro C Yeah and also without having to go into the settings little menu in your brain, which sets the latency, what's it? Delay compensation. NikNak Yeah, yes, I can't. Caro C One ask too much of a multitasker. Yeah, cool. OK. So any projects you've got going on at the moment that you'd like to tell us about? NikNak I'm working on something that's going to come out next year, I'm just doing the whole like finalising things and funding applications and things to really make sure that it pops off the way that I want it to but I'm having a lot of really lovely conversations with people. So, watch this space as people who are cooler than me tend to say. And I'm in a band called TC and the Groove Family. Caro C Ah, no way. I know you guys from festivals. Awesome. NikNak Yeah. We've been in the studio, so I think some music is going to come out from us too soon. Caro C And what do you do with them? NikNak I scratch and I do backing vocals. Caro C Nice. NikNak So yeah, there'll be some new bits coming out from us soon and you know, festival performances and all of that sort of stuff and yeah, I've got a few remixes that are due to come out later this year too. So yeah, it's busy, it’s busy. I don't know half the time, I have to check my calendar. Like what's going on today, Oh OK. And I've also been working on some theatre shows too. Caro C Nice. NikNak Best thing is to just keep an eye on what I'm doing on social media or sign up to my mailing list, which I'm rubbish on, but I try. Caro C Fantastic, yeah. All the best with your continued adventures and hope you get that lovely immersive synth. NikNak Oh my God, I really hope so. Please let's manifest together. Thank you so much, Caro, I really appreciate being on the podcast with you. Thank-you. Caro C Thank-you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for further information as well as links and details of all the other episodes in the Electronic Music series. Just before you go, let me point you to soundonsound.com/podcasts where you can explore what's on our other channels. This has been a Caro C production for Sound On Sound.