Liz Allan [00:00:00]:
Right, so joining me on the podcast today, I've got Michael MacLeod and he's the I'll start again. Sorry, Tom, I always say this. If I get it wrong, I screwed up. Right, okay, there we go. So joining me on the podcast today oh, it's wobbling. I'm wobbling my screen. That's what happened. Sorry. I've got a new desk and I do that, it starts wobbling. Right. Okay, here we go. So joining me on the podcast today, I've got Michael MacLeod, and he is the head of business development at Swarco. I get it. Right. Which one? Choose. You choose previously key account manager there. And you were a project engineer previously. But I want to just say thank you ever so much, Michael, for joining me, and I'll go into the whole spiel in a minute.
Michael Macleod [00:00:49]:
No, not a problem at all. Thank you very much for having me on.
Liz Allan [00:00:52]:
Right, so as I was trying to say, before my teeth got wrong and came in the wrong were so you've been at Swarco for a few years, haven't you? You worked before that as a project engineer at GEP Environmental.
Michael Macleod [00:01:06]:
That's correct, yeah.
Liz Allan [00:01:07]:
Before that you were at Senex and you studied like this. You studied renewable energy at Edinburgh Napier University. Tell me your journey. How did you get from where you were studying that to where you are now?
Michael Macleod [00:01:22]:
Absolutely. So it feels like a while ago now, which I suspect it is just a bit, I suppose jumping before my MSC was in renewable energy. So looking at generation decentralized energy and looking at the wider ecosystem, amongst other things. So, believe it or not, charging didn't really feature in that at all. I mean, that was 2017. EVs and EV charging projects were probably into. I suppose the innovation project stage was well in play and then kind of rollout was starting to happen at that point. So maybe a little bit surprising. But I suppose the reason that I got into EV and how it happened, my thesis was built around understanding air quality management zones in Edinburgh. So where are their areas of poor and challenging air quality? So at that stage, there were five identified throughout the city center. So could we implement some geofencing to ensure that those buses that were running within those areas could run on full electric during that point? And how would we generate enough energy to allow that to happen effectively? So, believe it or not, the charging infrastructure part of my thesis probably was around a paragraph. The aim of it was more around the solar generation. What do the buses look like? What does the capital look like to get there? So, yeah, read over recently, and it was shockingly small. So I feel like there's more I could build into that now, which is great, of course. And then again, I think it's one of those happy accidents. EV charging wasn't on the horizon, but you get a phone call while you're looking for jobs from a recruiter going, would you be interested in having some conversations about EV consultancy R D? And I, after some successful interviews and meeting, the team, moved to Loughborough from Edinburgh, site unseen. So just kind of we need to move, we need to get a job. And I think, again, it's one of those happy accidents. I mean, the team at CNX were doing some really good stuff and because it's a relatively small, not for profit consultancy, you get involved in all elements R D, vehicle to grid trials, kind of innovative strategy rollouts. And because it was still a fledged, still a relatively young industry with good opportunity to become an expert in quite a short period of time, I think I found myself at like 23, 24, doing conferences and sitting there wondering, why are these people listening to me? It was the way of the world at the time. So I think a lot of really good projects and a good opportunity to get into the sector there across a number of things that are still being talked about today, which is great. So, like vehicle to Grid, for example, actively talking about it all the time and it's becoming a niche application of some projects and hardware that are starting to come to market, which is great. I did a year and a half in Leicestershire and realized that I needed to go back home, north of the wall, just to be closer to family and my other half, so ended up at GEP, doing a little bit of energy and environmental auditing consultancy. Bit of a mixed bag, really. Some of it was box ticking exercise with the likes of the ESOS program, which it's got its challenges, but ultimately it does keep the energy savings opportunities and assessments in the mind of some of these large organizations. But EV was always kind of sitting in the background. Well, that was quite interesting. If Senex had an office up here or if there was someone up here that was doing it, I'd love to do it. And bizarrely, Senex did get an office eventually, but it was maybe a year or too late by then. Swarco, we'd had a conversation and it made sense. A lot of the reasons I joined Swarka at the time, I wasn't looking. It was during the pandemic, I think I got phone call in May during the pandemic. So in that weird, hazy time when people were following Joe Wicks and starting to bake banana bread and all that.
Liz Allan [00:06:06]:
Good stuff oh, I did that.
Michael Macleod [00:06:09]:
My other half banana bread.
Liz Allan [00:06:11]:
Wicks, though, no banana bread.
Michael Macleod [00:06:13]:
Yeah, some people say you can't do one without the other, but I disagree, I'll just stick to the banana bread.
Liz Allan [00:06:19]:
Just banana bread, first time?
Michael Macleod [00:06:22]:
Absolutely. But the quality of mine was a lot worse than my other half. There wasn't around two, but yeah, the Swarko came and a lot of the success and market kind of engagement that you see with SWACO and the team is based on some of the good heritage and activity that's been done in Scotland. So I think for me I wanted to do something in my local area. How do I get involved, how do I actively impact some of the activity that's going around me? Because you can see projects going live, you can see equipment go in and that was quite important to me at the time. So they gave me the opportunity to do that and I think working with Anne Buckingham at the time is obviously a key part of that. I mean, she's a bit of a force in the industry. She's built a really good team here and started to kind of shape what we're doing, how we're doing it and making sure that we're doing it for the right reasons really. I think for me, my academic background is engineering. I've never been a salesman. I would argue that I'm still not.
Liz Allan [00:07:39]:
I was going to ask you how you got from what made you do it because I think you don't have to be I wouldn't say that I'm a salesperson either. I don't like to think that I do try and develop my business but I like talking to people and I think that it's about building relationships and talking to people, isn't it? Would you say the same?
Michael Macleod [00:08:02]:
I think the term salesman probably comes with some negative connotations about door to door solar windows. I think the business development piece is certainly there. It was built and sold to me by Anne that we're not salespeople, it's solutions development, it's consultative approaches. Because I think for us, and certainly for me, understanding what the challenge is, what's the right equipment and what's the right application because we've got a range that I mean if someone wants to buy 50 rapid chargers for their fleet that's sitting there for 9 hours a day, great. But I don't think it's the right approach for us. It's just making sure that customers consulted and they're aware and they're educated, really what is the best approach for them and that's I think the industry is pretty good at that, which is great. But the Swarker side was the opportunity to get involved in some other big pieces like solar battery, looking at wider hubs and interesting projects that are kicking around that you maybe don't get the opportunity to.
Liz Allan [00:09:13]:
Move. Because you started at Swarco as a key account manager, didn't you? And now you're head of Business development and that move from where you were to kind of where you are now, was it the company or was it the company ethos that kind of brought you in then?
Michael Macleod [00:09:35]:
So the reason for that, speaking plainly, our head of new business development at the time, Joe Riley, moved on. So there was an opportunity I was operating as the head of key accounts at the time and there was an opportunity to go, right, well, I can move across into the new business side of things and there's someone else within the team who's ready to make that step up. So from a logistics point of view, it made really good sense and also it's one of those ones where I look at and go, I would do that because it fulfills a number of things for me. So the last two years I've been doing the key accounts piece and we've had some really good success across Scottish public sector and particularly Blue Light fleet. So some really good projects that we're really excited about and we'll start shouting about a bit more, but I've been doing that for about two years, so great, that's really good. But the new business side of things is maybe a world that not the same amount of kind of exposure to. So we've got proposition development, what are we doing with the equipment, who are we aiming at it, who are we aiming it at? What are we doing in the wider the bus and truck world? Because that sits within our new business team. So I think the first month in post, we went out to our partners in Poland and looked at their pantograph solution and worked with the team to understand what are we doing, where are we doing it, what does success look like and how do we position ourselves successfully to get a project in the ground that we can then really run with? So there's a number of pieces in there. And, I mean, the team's really well established. They're all very good at what they do. So it's a case of we'll let them get on with what they're good at and start building those good relationships. But at the same time, we'll work together and try and understand what are the propositions, what's the opportunity, where are the challenges? So a bit of a here's something I've not done before, let's see what happens more than.
Liz Allan [00:11:37]:
So what would you say are kind of Swarco's, kind of main what's the main customer base and what are you delivering? I know you've kind of talked about a few different things. What are the main things that you're kind of delivering and who would that be to?
Michael Macleod [00:11:54]:
Yeah, so I suppose historically, a lot of the good activity and success we've had has been built on public sector. So last year was very good for Blue Light and Critical fleets, for example.
Liz Allan [00:12:10]:
So you're talking so ambulance, fire service, police yeah, absolutely.
Michael Macleod [00:12:14]:
And then alongside that, we've had a lot of good success with rolling out with councils and supporting their activities, for example. So we're currently supporting Transport for Wales and their rollout. We're doing some really good stuff, which is great. And then I suppose, I think as of last year, as of last year, we'd finished working with all 32 local authorities in Scotland. So to various scales based on how advanced they were in their requirements. And I think the landscape is different depending on which authority you're in. But ultimately, looking at the fleet, looking at public infrastructure rollout and then supporting any kind of local businesses within the area, I think the key accounts team in particular also support a lot of our valued CPO customers. So the likes of Osprey, SSE, some of the names that you're familiar with out there in the world, swarco is supporting them in one way or another. And I think realistically, because we're a trusted commodity in terms of our service and maintenance provision as well. In particular, we are market leading in that area and team are building and improving all the time. And it's great to see that assets are being put out in the field, but they're not being forgotten about because obviously ensuring that charges are available and usable for the general public is key and a poor experience, even if it is once it can put people off.
Liz Allan [00:13:52]:
Yeah, exactly, because lots of people will jump on that bandwagon, won't they?
Michael Macleod [00:13:58]:
Absolutely.
Liz Allan [00:13:59]:
But I was going to say, Swarko has been around since 1969. That's a long time just to kind of give away my age. That means it's been around since I was one. I didn't realize that they were that long established. Where did they start off with, then? Was it more kind of on traffic management solutions originally?
Michael Macleod [00:14:19]:
Yeah, absolutely. So we're part of the wider Swarovsky group, so there's a couple of arms to that, I suppose. So the Swarovsky family are based out of Austria. Swarovsky Crystals is part of the same name.
Liz Allan [00:14:33]:
No. Is it?
Michael Macleod [00:14:35]:
Yes.
Liz Allan [00:14:36]:
Oh, my God. I would not have known that bit.
Michael Macleod [00:14:39]:
It's one of those ones that it's part of the group, but it's off to one side. We've kind of joked about getting a Crystall charger at some point, but can't quite make it work. And I'm yet to find a customer. That would be their dream.
Liz Allan [00:14:57]:
But one of these days are you looking at a millionaire there, aren't you, really? That owns, like it's not quite harrods.
Michael Macleod [00:15:04]:
But no, I don't even know if Harrods would they might do it. Depends how it looks. We'll mock up some designs and see what it looks like. But in terms of the global footprint, I have the official number on the top of my head, but around three and a half thousand people worldwide. A lot of the existing activities around intelligent traffic solutions. So one application that I kind of use, anecdotally is our line marking solution. So that uses glass speed off cuts within the paint. So what that does is effectively increases the reflectivity of vehicles that are passing and makes the line marking more visible.
Liz Allan [00:15:53]:
Right, okay.
Michael Macleod [00:15:54]:
Which I mean, in the UK, our line marking is done by local authorities and it's a public service, so we don't see the benefits of these things. So you've been at junctions and you go, there's line markings somewhere, I just can't see them. So that sort of thing maybe doesn't happen with the line markings, with the glass bead. So that's one of those anecdotal conversations that we tend to have alongside that variable messaging signs. Gantry. Effectively, if you've seen a Gantry in the UK on a motorway, the likelihood is it's probably a smart piece of kit, whether that's variable speed limiting or kind of driver information, the build is moving towards things like kind of connected autonomous vehicles, trying to make sure that there's as much information in the driver's hands as possible. And that's done by having infrastructure that can effectively and sensibly communicate with each other in a way that makes sense to all the pieces involved. So in terms of the UK, there's three organizations. So there's APD scadata. They manage the kind of parking controls, people guidance. They're doing some good stuff with ticketing and particularly thinking about stadium applications. So facial recognition, all that good stuff, as well as integrated charging and payment, which is I think it'll be quite nice to only have to pay for one thing when you go into multi store car park.
Liz Allan [00:17:29]:
Oh, yeah, that'd be good. Thanks.
Michael Macleod [00:17:32]:
Absolutely. So it's on the horizon. We've also got Swarku UK in Ireland, who look after the variable messaging signage, the intra urban traffic signals, as well as a platform. We'll maybe touch on it at some point, but the platform being built around intelligent traffic management, so ensuring that all the assets within a traffic management team's control can be represented on a single dashboard, and just making sure that we can add in modules based on what existing infrastructure is in play. And then we've got Swarco smart charge, who maybe a little bit biased, but probably doing the most interesting things, maybe. But we've been in play since kind of 2013, and a lot of the good firsts that you'll see in the UK around rapid charging provision or hub provision have been done by ourselves, with partners. So a lot of things like rapid charging taxi hubs in Dundee, as well as rolling out solar hubs, batteries, all that good stuff, if it's involved in the EV charging world, we've done it at some point, either supporting someone or rolling out ourselves.
Liz Allan [00:18:53]:
That's great. That's great, because I was going to say so you've been shortlisted, SWACO has been shortlisted for Project Design of the Year, the London Construction Awards, hasn't it? But was it Clippington road project in Dundee? I saw that you'd kind of put a thing on LinkedIn about that recently.
Michael Macleod [00:19:12]:
Yeah, absolutely. We're excited about that one. I think it's an example of a project that's been designed and built with collaboration at the centre of what it's doing. So we've got a very close working relationship with Dundee City Council and urban foresight, who are the consultants on board as well. So that was built and designed with the past guidance in mind. So being as accessible as it possibly can be given the site limitations. So the hub itself is now open and live and if you're in Dundee, go and have a look. There's some really interesting developments that we've put into that with, again, working with partners. So who in the space do we know that's doing something interesting? Great, get them involved. So we've got 550 kilowatt units and 1150 all of the 50 kilowatt units have cable management systems in play. So ensuring that users can access the charges as effectively as possible, all of the units are built being as flush to the surface as possible. So reducing the amount of raised edges that are in play and trying to avoid impeding access as much as possible. Again, I keep using the phrase as much as possible. I mean, it's been designed and built with the guidance in mind. But when the hub was launched, we also co hosted an event to look at accessibility and charging in general and go, look, this is what we've done from a hub design perspective, in line with what we think we can possibly achieve, in line with Pass, for example. But where can we improve, what can we do better? How do we work with stakeholders that are as part of disability advocate group, for example, come to the site, see what it looks like, what would you do better? And basically just kind of going, this is what we've done. What else? So that was really interesting.
Liz Allan [00:21:24]:
I was going to say you're looking at best practice through so you're talking about PaaS 1899, aren't you? Which is about accessible charge points. You're really looking here about best Practice hubs for making sure that you're working with the kind of accessible needs, people with accessible needs to ensure that you're doing the right thing.
Michael Macleod [00:21:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think with that one, it was, as I say, an opportunity to go, this is where we are, what's next? What do we incorporate as part of our standard site design? Taking into consideration that not all sites are born equal. So doing what we can, where we can. The other exciting bit around that it's been coined as an EV charging oasis for a couple of reasons, I suppose. Okay, yeah, there's some method in there. So we've got, I believe it's about 70 solar carport in play. A part of that, there's a drainage system that's in that's rainwater harvesting effectively. So we've worked with an organization called Blue Water who have some proprietary reverse osmosis water purification systems that are in place. That was a difficult word to say, but basically we've got the rainwater harvesting piece in play. And then there is two purified water dispensers on site as well. So it's something that it's around the kind of ethos of place building. Make a charging hub somewhere that people are happy to spend time, make it well lit so that people feel safe and comfortable is there facilities in there, so there's access to clean and free water, but also there's opportunities for advertising on that unit as well. So lovely big screen that. There's some really good CSR messages that are being put out that Dundee City Council have done as part of their activities. And then there's the image and the message around how we got to the point, the story of the hub, really. So that's one aspect, it's really interesting. I think it's the only one that we've seen in the market and we're now going, right, okay, we've done that there. That's great. Can we do this elsewhere? Is this something our customers might want? It's great to have an example, I suppose, thinking about a wider energy area. There's some Second Life batteries in there as well. They came from the French postal service, I believe. So they're old Renault Zoe batteries.
Liz Allan [00:24:12]:
Yeah.
Michael Macleod [00:24:14]:
Through, again, another partnership with an organization called Connected Energy. And the view of that is to store as much of that solar as possible and then start to look at, okay, right, that's great. We've got a battery that's in place to support the hub. What else can we do with the battery? Can we think about maybe Aggregating and starting to use that in grid services and generate an additional revenue for the council and really provide all that information up front and go, we've done this based on the energy demands of the site, which is great. It's fulfilled its primary requirement. But there's that additional piece further down the line where you've got the opportunity to look at can you do something else with this? All the hard work has been done, the batteries are in place, modules can be replaced further down the line if you decide to sweat that asset and generate some additional revenue. So I think it's really interesting, there's a lot of different nodes that are in play at that site and I think I'm quietly confident for a number of reasons.
Liz Allan [00:25:22]:
How many charges are in that hub then?
Michael Macleod [00:25:24]:
So there's six total. There's 1150 kilowatt and 550s. They are based around single bay provision. So if it's a 50, you're rocking up and you're using the 50. So there's guaranteed charge more than anything, just, again, making people feel comfortable. And a lot of the signage is built around just that. So if you want to pay a little bit more, you can use the 150. But bear in mind that not every vehicle is going to be able to take it, for example. So there's still that education piece there, but if you go and look at the site now, it's, I think, three months open just less, it looks phenomenal. And the next stage of that, which isn't part of that submission, is the fleet side of that site as well. Right. Again, covering a large portion of the car park with solar canopies. There's another battery there built to support that and then there's some rapid and overnight charging in place as well. So slightly different. That's ongoing, but the hub itself is open and ready for business.
Liz Allan [00:26:34]:
Right. Actually, so all of that that you were saying with regards to fleet provision, that's being developed now.
Michael Macleod [00:26:41]:
Yes, absolutely.
Liz Allan [00:26:42]:
Right, okay. It sounds like you do so many different things because I was looking at your website when I was kind of researching and kind of pulling some questions together. And you've already talked about road markings and infrastructure and smart charging and traffic management and that in itself, it provides your customers with such a plethora of different information and different systems and pulling it all together. It just sounds like kind of yeah, it sounds like you're kind of the hub of information, really. Services. Yeah.
Michael Macleod [00:27:27]:
No, absolutely. And I think the area that these are being applied, I mean, charging is parking is effectively and as part of the wider group, there's the opportunity to have those access controls, have ANPR look at options for Wayfinding. So you're driving up a multi story car park, you can't find a space, a little sign that says Space available there. It takes a lot of the frustration away from everyday activities. It's one of those minor bugbears that can be avoided, I was going to.
Liz Allan [00:27:58]:
Say, because it's so stressful finding a blooming space in a multi story anyway. Royal Barks Hospital in Reading, it's kind of like a fight to the death. Not quite, but you kind of fight for the space. Come on, I've seen a space and everybody's like, oh, there's a space.
Michael Macleod [00:28:18]:
It was the same this morning at Edinburgh Airport. I was coming in with a colleague and saying, there's a space here somewhere. The Wayfinding platform says there's a space here somewhere. I'm going to find it because this is the floor where the door is to get through to the fast track, so I will find it. So looking at that time in the.
Liz Allan [00:28:34]:
Morning, I should blooming hope so, because you set off at what time did you set what time you say you're at the airport this morning?
Michael Macleod [00:28:40]:
Arrived at about half five.
Liz Allan [00:28:42]:
I would hope there were some spaces at that.
Michael Macleod [00:28:44]:
Yeah, absolutely. It's a couple of minutes of perseverance and you find what you need in the end, but you hit the nail on the head. There's a number of applications that we're currently involved in. I touched on our hardware provision for an example. Goes from some really nice, sleek domestic units that we recently launched, all the way up to megawatt charging systems, padographs, bus and truck, all that good stuff that's going on. And if you watch this space, there's a really exciting announcement for our team around that bus piece that's coming in the next couple of weeks. So we're positioning ourselves really well. We've got a good team who are experts in their own area, in their own right in certain areas, and particularly on the bus and truck side of things so we can go as little or as big as need. I think it's the flexibility as well as that added support around. Right, kits on the ground. Great, what do we do now? Well, you keep it running and you ensure that customers get a good experience and they can see their bill and they understand how much charge they're getting. And it's simple because that's the aim at the end of the day.
Liz Allan [00:30:01]:
Yeah. Because that's what you want at the end. If you think of it as a customer yourself, that's what you want, isn't it? You don't want loads of complex nonsense happening and kind of do a little jig while you're doing whatever and then you're doing this and that and the other. You want it to just be simple and actually just get a receipt at the end and go, there you go.
Michael Macleod [00:30:25]:
My sounding board for because probably the same yourself in that you're involved in EV. You go, well, we do this because of that and that makes sense. And my sounding board for that is always my other half. So we go anywhere with the car and she's like, Why do you have to do that? That's stupid. Well, no, it's that because of this. And you go, well, not everyone's going to accept that and as you say, they're not going to do a dance and turn around three times and be able to plug in and hope so. I think it's those that are I mean, I've been driving EVs since 2002, three years, and again, you kind of go, I'm comfortable with all these bits, but mass market adoption, it just needs to be straightforward. People need to be comfortable. If it's not, they'll go elsewhere.
Liz Allan [00:31:19]:
We need to have some kind of best practice guidance from everybody, people, the different operators and the different organizations involved in the infrastructure. It just feels like everybody needs to start coming together and actually all trying to sync him from the same sing sheet. Sing from the same hymn sheet. I'll get it the right way around because when it comes down to it, in order for everybody to adopt an EV, everybody's got to be singing the same way. Not going, oh, I'm going to do this like that, I'm going to do this like that. Actually, come on, everybody, let's just start talking to each other and going, what is the best way, what is the best practice for us all to look at? What's not worked, what's working? What do we really need to make a change? What do we really need to improve? That's my continuous improvement head on. Just to kind of, just to say.
Michael Macleod [00:32:13]:
And I do believe this industry, whilst it's quite new, there's a couple of established players involved and we're generally quite good at talking to each other and okay, you're doing that great, how does that work? And having people who are qualified. And interested and enthusiastic, getting along to the right meetings and having open and honest conversations about where we are and where things need to improve. I think it has to be the way forward and we're always keen to be part of that conversation. It's evident by the number of organizations that we're supporting in their journey, because we've been there, we've experienced some of the headaches, putting charges in remote locations next to peers and then going, Next design. We'll need to think about this and having that continuous piece involved. So it's a good time to be involved, I think, for me, it's up there certainly technical revolutions and things like mobile phones. It's not far away.
Liz Allan [00:33:18]:
Well, I always say this. I mean, if you think about the size of a mobile well, it wasn't really a mobile phone, it was kind of like, well, they call them car phones originally, didn't they? You've got your car, know, and it was the size of someone's briefcase and it was even bigger than that sometimes. And then you'd probably need to put it on a pulley lift to move it along because they were so heavy. I'll never forget a guy I was working for when we lived in Halifax and I'm ringing you on my car, know, thinking he was really cool and it was like cutting out all the time. But, yeah, if we look at how things have changed over time and the way that phones have changed, technology changes all the time, doesn't it? And phones have got smaller. I'm assuming over time things are going to change a lot in the kind of the EV infrastructure. Where would you like things to be by 2030? I know we're talking along. It's not that long, really, is it? I mean, six years, six and a half years will just fly by, just go like that.
Michael Macleod [00:34:26]:
Absolutely. When I joined, we were looking at 2025, particularly in 2032. 2025. Scottish government obviously changed the goalpost, going, we can do better than that, surely. But the time speeds up on you very quickly. I mean, this next round of procurement for local authorities may be their last car before 2025. And that's how it works. I think, for me, there's a push towards wireless charging as an option en route charging, and I think that's great. I think there's some really good stuff that could potentially be rolled out, but it's going to be a premium product for me. It's always going to be it's that additional convenience piece that will add to extra cost. So getting the infrastructure right and kind of having that joined up approach between OEMs and maybe about a coordination about where sockets go on vehicles, for a start, would be a nice one. We had a graphic from our solutions director and trying to explain how many areas we cater to and how it all works. It's bizarre. So consolidation of these pieces will make life easier for a number of things, and then it's that rollout and making sure that people have confidence. They know that if they go to a motorway service station, there's going to be more than one charger and it'll be available and usable and they'll get what they expect. Based on what the power output of the charger is. Domestic charging is certainly something that's a good portion of the challenge. I know there's still a large amount, and I'm one of them that doesn't have a home charger. I live in a multi story block of flats in Edinburgh. But a bit of a change of attitude, a bit of change of activity, change where you shop. The easiest one for me is that there's a lidl's around the corner. It's got a rapid charger. I go there now. And it's just trying to fit it into your existing routine, but maybe a little bit of flexibility.
Liz Allan [00:36:40]:
Yeah. And going back to what you said about sockets on vehicles oh, my God. I mean, I don't know whether you know, so at this very point, when we're recording, I've still not got an EV, but we've had to put it off the time beam until my son until he takes his driving test next month. But the EVs that I've test driven, it seems that all the sockets are all on different parts of the car. Some are at the front, some are. I get why initially people kind of did that, but to me it's like, right, okay, I know there's no fuel in a car, but if you're wanting people to adopt, surely you're actually looking at standardizing where they go. Because the other thing that you've got is it's different at a petrol pump. But I didn't realize that for ages. That on your dash when it says you need petrol, whichever side the pump's on that's, whichever, you know, on the.
Michael Macleod [00:37:44]:
On the actual image, I'll openly admit to that as well.
Liz Allan [00:37:47]:
Well, you didn't know either.
Michael Macleod [00:37:50]:
The first company car I got was an EV. I had bits and pieces of exposure of driving rental cars and things, but at one point someone went, oh, but you know it's there because of that.
Liz Allan [00:38:01]:
Yeah. No, I didn't.
Michael Macleod [00:38:03]:
I'm not the only one. That's fine, I don't feel so bad.
Liz Allan [00:38:07]:
And actually, I suppose if they were at the back, not everybody likes reversing into a space. I get that. So some people like going in forwards. When I said to you before we started recording, I worked for SSE for a while, and one of their things that they were really against was anybody going in forwards into a space because of the danger of actually reversing out of it. And I never did anyway. I'd rather reverse in and then come out forwards, but I know lots of people don't like doing that. But actually, just standardize where you put in the charge points, people are used to actually filling their cars up with fuel just have them at the back one side or the other rather than it down the side of the front end or in the bit where the badge is. Just try and standardize it. Easier said than done, I know, and there's obviously reasons behind why that's happened but I just think now is the time as well for kind of the manufacturing industry to look at this and kind of go, right, okay, if we want people to adopt, what are the things we need to do? Is there anything that we can actually kind of utilize from the ice cars that actually will help them feel more familiar for those that they're not used to an EV? There's so much Negativity about EVs anyway, isn't there? Let's try and make it easier for people there. Sorry, I got on my orange box then and started ranting.
Michael Macleod [00:39:41]:
Sorry, I think we've all done it with friends and family in the room and they say something that's bizarrely incorrect about EV and you go, no, I'm not going to rise to it, I'll leave it alone. But some of the rhetoric that we're seeing at the moment is some of it's just bizarre really.
Liz Allan [00:40:02]:
It's sad and I wish I knew why there's got to be method in the madness. Because when it comes down to it, we're wanting to reduce air pollution. I can't speak air pollution. Not pollution, air pollution. We've got a climate crisis. There's so many things that we need to do and people just at some point they're going to have to do what's needed. And I know actually having a load of EVs on the road isn't going to solve the problem of course, because you're just going to end up with gridlock and all that kind of stuff. But we're going to have to start embracing this and I don't understand where all this Negativity is coming from. Like I say, there's got to be some kind of method in their madness. I wish I knew what it was and I just wish I knew. I kind of said something on LinkedIn the other day and I basically said the Positivity needs to outweigh the Negativity. But how we do that is a different matter.
Michael Macleod [00:41:04]:
Yeah, a lot of that, I suppose. I mean there's a lot of really good voices in the EV community already doing that and are very well established and have come from respectable careers in other sectors. So I think it's continuing to ensure that we have champions within the organization that can affect within the organization, within Swarco and within the wider EV world that will combat some of the misinformation that's kicking around. But also much like the Clefton road piece around the past guidance is that, okay, take note of where improvements can be made as well and take them seriously. Because I think in the early I mean, especially in the early days of EV charging, some people just accepted things because that's the way it was and it's just making sure not everyone's going to do that. Your average user is not going to accept something just because that's the way it was. So catering towards general market acceptance is definitely do a little bit better, but it's getting there. It is getting there. And it's a positive place to be in terms of the industry.
Liz Allan [00:42:16]:
Yeah, exactly. So finishing off, if people want to find you or have a look at Swirco, is the best place just to kind of find you on LinkedIn or where would you like people to contact you if they're interested in talking to you?
Michael Macleod [00:42:35]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the whole team's on LinkedIn. We're all active, we're trying to get the name out there a little bit more, which is good. So just search me on LinkedIn, you'll find myself and a lot of the new business team that focused on fleet and bus and truck and a load of other good people who are interested in specific things in terms of maybe hardware or the servicing piece. So go on LinkedIn. Our website is also a good option. We've got contact areas within the website and if you have a specific inquiry, then we can make sure that you're directed to the right person. But, yeah, just drop us a message. We're a friendly bunch and we're always keen to have some conversations that are either traditional or a bit left field and bit different. So, yeah, more than happy for people to get in touch.
Liz Allan [00:43:22]:
It's been lovely talking to you, Michael. I've really kind of enjoyed it. I'm sorry that you had to set off at Cracker Dawn this morning. That's absolutely not to talk to me, though. He's flown from Edinburgh to Hemel Hemstead, so it's not my fault, that bit, is it, really?
Michael Macleod [00:43:38]:
No, not at all. Not at all.
Liz Allan [00:43:40]:
But you're looking all right. You just need to go and get your Greg sandwich now, don't you?
Michael Macleod [00:43:44]:
That's it. It's definitely not across the desk from me. We're all remote, so I obviously work out of Edinburgh. It's good to come and see some humans that are also wearing Swahako branded T shirts, so it's absolutely necessary.
Liz Allan [00:44:00]:
Oh, well, listen, thank you ever so much for your time. It's been great talking to and really, really interesting about what SWACO is actually doing, so that's fantastic. So thank you again and look to everybody else. I'm going to say goodbye and I shall see you all next time. Thanks, then. Bye.