Liz Allan [00:00:00]:
So I'm really pleased to have this guest on today. We have got James Court on the podcast, and James is the CEO of EVA England. James, I'm so pleased. Thank you very much for agreeing to come on and joining me.
James Court [00:00:17]:
No. Thank you for having me on this. It's great.
Liz Allan [00:00:20]:
So we just to kind of give a little bit of background how we kind of got in contact we basically, asked asked you if we could work on a a a summary document that you guys put together, didn't we? And it was the 99% reliability summary that you've put in a really, really brilliant, concise manner. but we kind of asked you if we could do an infographic. And that's how we got talking, wasn't it? So thank you for allowing us to do that.
James Court [00:00:50]:
No. And thank you for the graphic. I think we've covered now in every possible way we could. So we've done a sort of an initial tweet, which was sort of the too long didn't read sort of answer to it. And then we've had the long form blog, and I've just written another 1000, well, 1200 word piece on it, and then we've got your graphics. So, yeah, I think we've covered the the reliability regs in every way we could, which is good because the government didn't seem to wanna push it out. So I think we we we were one of the few places that were push that was sort of pushing it out, and it was good news. So I don't know why. Yeah. Maybe the government woke up and thought, we've got enough good news coming out this Wednesday. any more would be showing off. So we're gonna try and suppress this good news. Yeah. No. It was very
Liz Allan [00:01:31]:
-- Oh my god. Well, we got it there. We got it out there, didn't we? So let's just let's just talk about some of the stuff that the EVA England get involved in. So that was just one tiny, tiny bit. Can we go right back, James? Can we go right back to, obviously, your CEO, and I want to bring that into it, but What what is EVA England? What do you do and why was it started?
James Court [00:01:57]:
Yeah. It's a good question because, again, not, I mean, very few EV drivers have heard of us, and I suppose part of that is that we're still a young organization started sort of 3 years ago by people who took on I think a lot of people did take on COVID projects. I didn't learn Spanish or learn how to play the piano or do anything. Yeah. But luckily, some people did get some stuff done. So I think there were 7 EV drivers who could see that there were European examples of driver's club. So Norway is sort of the is the the north star. They've got
Liz Allan [00:02:31]:
100100,000
James Court [00:02:33]:
members plus, and they've been around for over a decade and a real sort of influence and even Scotland had a driver's association, sort of, in a well established one. So it was odd that England didn't have it. I think there was like a chance encounter between the 1st chair and the vice chair, and they met at a probably broken EV charging point. and thought we need to do something about this. So they sort of sort of 7 volunteers set set up the the EVA, and then got some initial funding I think they launched about 2 a bit years ago, and then I came on board, 18 months ago, just over 18 months ago. And it's it's been fantastic. I mean, the momentum and sort of the the stuff we've already achieved is fantastic and sort of the sense of that momentum building. I think is really satisfying. I hope certainly to the, founder members and the the original board We're sort of ahead of where we thought we'd be in terms of sort of some of the government stuff and the media stuff. so it's, yeah, it's really satisfying. It's really satisfying. but essentially, we are, we are a advocacy group, a lobbying group of voice to, government and media and Street on behalf of our members and our drivers. I think a lot of people yeah. It is it's it's not it's it's an unusual organization, I guess, in in the UK. we don't really have these type of lobbying groups. Like, everybody's heard of RSPB and sort of sort of national trust, and some of the WWFF, those being 1, but sort of on specific issues like this, I think we're sort of a bit of an anomaly. so we're not a trade body. We don't percent organ represent companies. We don't represent sort of the charging companies or manufacturers. We are a
Liz Allan [00:04:19]:
100%
James Court [00:04:21]:
representing our members, just regular EV drivers, and people can join us. Yeah. People can join us, and they should join us. It's a very small £20 fee. and sort of we try and engage with our members in in different ways, and we're definitely gonna be doing more of that. But we wanna be engaging with members and hearing what they say, and then it's up to me to try and push that and push that agenda forward.
Liz Allan [00:04:45]:
And actually, so I joined in on on your town hall. So you ran a town hall, didn't you? probably about a month ago now.
James Court [00:04:56]:
Yeah. And it was the first time we've done it something like that. We've had sort of online meetings before around specific subjects. But actually, we're getting to sort of size and we want to, and we've got sort of the the the the the capacity now to start having different ways of communicating where previously it was sort of meeting people fully charged or meeting people in emails, when now, you know, we are surveying members more on sort of specific issues so the MOTU sort of issue and, around the charge of regs, and we're gonna be sending out a new server in couple of weeks so we can get feedback that way. people emailing me directly, but the town hall was a great way of just trying to say for a quick hour at your lunchtime. this is what we've been doing, try and have a guest speaker, and then this is what we wanna be doing, what do you want us to be doing. so, yeah, it worked really well. it's been viewed quite a lot of times afterwards. Where the live event, I think we had quite a few people there, and it's sort of multiples of that have been watching it on YouTube and Facebook. So, yeah, it's great. and, yeah, I hope the next one, I think we're gonna try and get somebody from the charging industry, to do a bit of a talk and, yeah, whether or not they need the flap jacket and sort of defenses, I don't know, but I think we'll try and get one of the good ones. and it'd be nice to hear what what what some of the plans are. from the charging side industry next time. And And
Liz Allan [00:06:17]:
I was gonna, yeah, I was gonna say, and there are there are a few of the good if there are quite a few good ones out there, aren't there? There were some there were some that are a bit and I'm only working this one out myself because like I say, I've only been driving an EV myself at the point of filming this for 5 about 4 or 5 weeks. So I think it's early days. It's very early days. So, yes, you've sussed now. Yeah.
James Court [00:06:40]:
I think it the learning curve is steep, but it's also quite natural. I found after, like, 2 weeks, sort of, I began to sort of feel comfortable, and then after a month, sort of all the things you thought you'd worry about, you didn't, but you do learn quite quickly about certain things. yeah, we have got a survey out, and I won't go into too much detail. But there is one, and it is sort of we did ask people to rank their experiences with ChargePoint operators. And I think if I was the industry, it's actually quite satisfying. The the companies that we instinctively, drivers instinctively think are good and know are good, and the ones that we think have been putting in the effort, their reviews are really good. And the companies that you can see our behind when it comes to reliability, when it comes to some things like that, they're ranked poorly. So for me, if I was a charging industry, a charge with operator, you can see, actually, if you're running a good product, you are getting rewarded for that. Not everybody thinks charging is all the same. So if I was looking at that, I'd be thinking, good. you know, there are some new entrants there who are challenging Tesla who are obviously like years ahead. But in terms of satisfaction, some of the people that have come in in the last few years are already yet has a level of satisfaction, and that's gotta be quite a gratifying thing for the for the CEOs. So, yeah, we'll be pushing this out at some point. and again, the usual suspects are at the bottom and, they need to
Liz Allan [00:08:02]:
get it. Yeah. Well, hopefully, they might kind of pull their socks up slightly when when they see this, but look, let's just go back a little bit for reasons reasons why you joined Obviously, you joined EVA England. So you were working at there was a number of things that I I saw when I was kinda look looking at what you'd done. but I know you you worked for the REA, didn't you? So the Renewable Energy Association at one point, but you've kind of been involved in policy and all sorts of things. So so what was it that drew you to EVA in England then?
James Court [00:08:35]:
Yeah. So I've always been doing since I sort of left uni started working in parliament and doing environmental stuff and sort of the politics side of it and the policy side of it's always fascinated me and I've always been sort of drawn towards that and always sort of for renewable sustainability type, industries. So at the REA, I think we set up the EV group in about 2015. So we sort of represented quite a wide sort of solar panels and biomass and some of the sort of all the renewable technologies as well as biomass fuels or biofuels. So, and it was clear that EVs were becoming, you know, it's weird to think actually that it's only some 8 years ago, it was like, these EV things actually might be a they might be a thing, you know. We should probably try, yeah, we should probably try doing something because quite a lot of our members also the interface between the energy system and transport had never really sort of come in to touch before. so we got involved in
Liz Allan [00:09:32]:
2015, 2016,
James Court [00:09:32]:
and that was probably when I started really working on sort of EV policy side of it. and then left, left the REA and joined sort of various sort of things around even more even more on EVs. So I've joined the climate group heading up their EV 100, initiative, and that was looking at fleet buyers. So Ronald Mail and some of the really big fleet buyers. and that was great, because before that, we'd never really had industry, people interested, people want my money talking about electric vehicles and saying, this isn't, you know, we're not sandal wearers. We're Royal Mail. We are we are big fleet owners we are transitioning to this, and this is what we need from government to make this transition. We're doing this. so that was great to see that. And then went on to work in the cop unit. I also counted into the cop unit. so when it's up in Glasgow, heading at some of the transport policy in the cabinet office, and that was great. Firstly, because I've never seen behind the curtain, sort of, the civil service side of it. but it was also worked with some of the best people I ever liked with. and some of the people from from Biz and DFT and, number 10. We're just so passionate about this agenda. we'd kind of been given not quite a blank check, but it's so interesting to see the difference between a prime minister, let's say, Rishi Soon, if you whether or not he cares about this agenda, whether or not he sort of supports it or not, he hasn't he is by no means given sort of the the prime minister wants this is the the most powerful sort of words for a civil servant. It's like, okay. And Boris Johnson, for all good or ill, on this agenda and on the green agenda, was fantastic. And having that sort of support from number 10 coming down meant that we could really build up and have this sort of whole government approach to it. So the cup was based I always forget one. It was cars, cash, coal, trees, cars, cash, coal, trees, and there's another one. Can't remember. I was only working on cars, but but the fact that it was sort of the, you know, one of the one of the priorities of government and again, we had prime ministerial time. We had foreign office time, diplomatic time. And the main ask for our COP President it was com it was countries, companies, cities, to sign up to a phase out target. preferably 2035, but
Liz Allan [00:12:00]:
2040
James Court [00:12:01]:
for countries, some countries that might struggle to trans to transition that quickly. and we got a great response to it, and we got silver it was it it I think at the time, it was over 30 countries that signed up to it. the EU was still mulling over, and it was yeah. For I I it was a it was just a hugely positive experience and tiring. Anyway, it says civil servants are lazy. It was the the the hours in court for the 6 months, 8 months leading up to it were insane and sort of the senior time on it. So if you're talking, I don't yeah. I had a couple of bosses that you'd send an email off o'clock, 12 o'clock at night, and you'd get edits back at 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock. So you'd be up at 6 o'clock doing the edits,
Liz Allan [00:12:46]:
and
James Court [00:12:46]:
then the edits would be for put back in at night. And it's like, this is When are you guys sleeping? I'm feeling bad that I seem to sleep. When are you doing it? So when I see some of the comments about telephone was like, no. It was, it it that that was that was full on. and we got a good result for it, which is why it's even more frustrating that we were putting this diplomatic time and effort, prime ministerial time, pulling up state leaders saying you need to sign up to this phase out date. And now sort of seeing sort of the ambivalence coming through. Is it real? Is it real? Yeah. It is. It is. Sort of we had this global leadership we have this global leadership role that we used, and we're sort of sponsoring it. It's the criminal way.
Liz Allan [00:13:27]:
Yeah. I I said to you before we started recording, didn't didn't either that kind of I'm I would never say I'm a political animal at all, but some of the stuff that that has been going on lately has just made my blood boil really, really has, you know, you could see you could see all of the effort that everybody's been putting in going to waste just because the leader has decided that actually maybe we need to backpedal on this. You know? And Yeah.
James Court [00:13:56]:
I mean, he's it's the it's the not knowing is the most frustrating part is that I think it's going to go ahead. I think there may be some walkie concessions. he's definitely got a bit wobbly. sort of the Uxbridge thing has certainly changed the dynamic, and has become this sort of, which you've never wanted it to happen, was this cultural war, and it didn't need to be a cultural war. and we can sort of see that tactics on this. I think it will backfire. I think people do want to see you know, strong green policies. I think people wanna see it for, for the environmental reasons, and I think people are seeing sort of the change in climate and even in the blue wall, it's sort of I hate when people think that blue wall, or we've got a really red wall, sorry, the red wall we've really gotta dumb down this message. You know, it's been like, they don't all, like, they don't all own whippets and hate foreigners. the red wall also are quite concerned about the climate and their grandchildren and children. so I think, you know, I think they're gonna get punished for it. I think Uxbridge was a really specific local issue. and they've tried to extrapolate that out. And I think they're gonna get, sort of punished for it And then the second reason people want it is because they can see that this is where jobs are. They can see that this is where sort of the future is. and I'm sort of talking especially around the car manufacturers, there is no do nothing option. The 2 options you've got as a car manufacturer in the UK is you either prepared to be making EVs or prepare to shut down?
Liz Allan [00:15:35]:
Yes. Yes.
James Court [00:15:36]:
Because over a 70% of our exports are to come are to countries that have a phase update. So if you think it's high, you know, this thing is happening, and it's it's gonna happen with or without the UK, if we want to have a a sort of a car manufacturing base, we need to be transitioning quickly because we are losing ground and China are throwing everything at this. America have thrown trillions at this. Yeah. The inflation reduction act is pushing this agenda so hard. Like Biden and sort of the American companies can see this is gonna be crucial, and we need to do this. the EU are gonna be putting together a package. so we could be really left behind, which is again, criminal considering we were one of the first people to have a mass produced EV up in Sunderland. Like, we've got experience of this. We have a head start We've got the skills. We have the political leadership. We've got the investment coming in. If we backpedal on this now, all of that is not only wasted, but it's gone. It's gone. so, yeah, I think that the environmental reasons and the job reasons alone, I think most people want this to happen.
Liz Allan [00:16:50]:
And and why right. So when you were a cop, was that cop 26? Yeah. So so from what I understand, the number of lobbyists or oil and gas, I'm kind of going in a slightly different area on this one, but the number of lobbyists from oil and gas very low. Weren't it? You know, the numbers are are are for COP 26. Am I right? Yeah.
James Court [00:17:16]:
I mean, it's a very difficult thing because it doesn't happen the cup lobbying is a very difficult thing. If you're a single organization, it's actually very difficult. Yeah. To try and put it in to into perspective, you have this huge room where every country attending has their delegation office And you can physically walk out the knock on doors and say, I wanna speak to, you know, your, your lead, and I did some of this. did say, if you knock up to the door and you say, can I speak to your policy lead on this area?
Liz Allan [00:17:47]:
And -- Yeah. --
James Court [00:17:47]:
they'll say, yeah, come back in 30 minutes or, yes, we can speak now. And you're physically saying, look, this is what we need. I'm from the cop office. You know, this is what we're looking for. Are you happy with this that you did? And this is happening both with governments, but also with other organizations. So WWF had a huge organization. and they are professionals at doing this, and they've got their context. And then you are trying to build up coalitions. of course, the oil companies do that, but it's not so obvious. And quite often, it's done through countries. So you've got corporate priorities and corporates of representation at COP, and then you've got countries. And countries are the ones ultimately in the room trying to debate it. and you have people who are trying to throw spanners in the works, people who are trying to veto it, just to get into a technical thing. For it to be in the final sort of accord, all countries have to sign up to it. So a 193, 4, 6, 7. How can I forget how many there were.
Liz Allan [00:18:46]:
IPCC was the same, apparently.
James Court [00:18:48]:
This is it. So it's got to be unanimous to be in the final accord. What doesn't mean and what I think was so smart about COP
Liz Allan [00:18:54]:
26
James Court [00:18:54]:
is that we then had bunch of other stuff that weren't actually part of the formal negotiations, the formal mix. we had side targets. so the cars was not was never part of the official negotiations. It was a separate initiative, which meant you didn't have to have unanimity. Yeah. Sorry. unanimous sort of consent on it. Yeah. which meant that, you couldn't have these people blocking it, you're either on boarded, you weren't.
Liz Allan [00:19:25]:
Right.
James Court [00:19:25]:
And you couldn't stop it. And that did highlight I think that's a tactic that should be that could be used in future cops, because not everything has to be done through the next. and obviously, some countries were against this. and they are spread by sort of the country delegations. and I suppose the fascinating thing for us was that we really wanted a certain country to sign up. they have lots of manufacturers, some who are ahead in EVs, and some who have banked a lot on hydrogen. So we had some companies from this country that wanted to sign up. But we're then told very quickly by the central government, do not sign this as a company because we're against it as a country because the manufacturer we are, we are trying to protect our our large manufacturer who's invested in hydrogen. so, yeah, either countries can also have an an impact on on the business it's trying to sign up. My goodness. Yeah. You can probably I always forget whether I signed an NDA or not. I don't think I did, but I'm not gonna mention the country anyway, but I'm pretty sure that people can guess which country and which manufacturer but it did have sort of, yeah, it did have impacts.
Liz Allan [00:20:38]:
Yeah. That, but I was gonna say though that the moving forward to the last cup kind of it was, was it kind of October 22 around that? Yeah. Wasn't there something like 600 and odd representatives from oil and gas at that cup when they'd been hardly anybody previously. So, obviously, somebody's kinda put the timer on and gone wake up, time to wake up, everybody, I think each cup
James Court [00:21:10]:
each cup has its own momentum going into it and its own narrative. And Glasgow was, you know, it was set up to be a progressive one. 1, it was one of the one every 5 years, you gotta have there's a there's a there's an update on the, the formal side of it. And the last one was in Paris, and then Glasgow was picked of it. And it's a big deal. It's a it's it's it's an updating of your of your, of what you've actually done as well as negotiations over cash.
Liz Allan [00:21:42]:
Right.
James Court [00:21:43]:
in between cops can then be sort of hijacked because they're not quite as important. And also, depending on where the country is depends on what the agenda is to cut, you know, the president sets the agenda. the fact that the two cops after, Glasgow, we're gonna be in big oil producing companies, countries. Yes. You knew the agenda wasn't, you know, this was this was the last shop for, you know, EVs for a few years, certainly, and some of the big heavy lifting, on it. Now, other cops have different issues as well. So I think there are huge efforts to try and on the on the just transition between the global north and global south. it is natural that some cops may not they're not all about sort of, the the accords and about the cash some of them, sorry, about the the the the major com the major countries and polluting countries trying to negotiate down. some of it can be about other issues. And I've been sort of balancing out that global south and north and the record of the sort of what both have to do is important, for sure, and trying to get other countries on board is important. But, yeah, for this particular agenda, Glasgow was a key one, and I think we did a good job. I
Liz Allan [00:23:01]:
think definitely definitely did a good job. But like you said about about kind of losing that specific leader, you know, it's it's yeah. Like you said, he he also had his, there were issues, but but he had a he was a voice to be reckoned with, wasn't he?
James Court [00:23:22]:
I thought Alex Sherman was perfect. He doesn't have a huge ego. he wasn't trying to grandstand. He was on top of the detail. I think also we can't sort of, downplay the fact that he's of Asian heritage. And I think if we'd have picked sort of a eat in the school's sort of white sort of patriarch. I don't know who it that's that that's not gonna go down very well with the rest of the world trying to take this lecturing term from sort of almost like a neocolonialist standpoint. what I think shallah did really well was meet people on the level and was sort of, again, not having that ego, wanting to speak to every sort of energy minister environment minister, he would travel to them. He would, you know, he would travel to them for a start. There there wasn't sort of the grandeur that I think some people might have feared on a UK presidency and that sort of hectoring term, which definitely definitely made a difference. And he obviously he obviously cared. I think, yeah, he did a fantastic job. You might not be the most sort of electric speaker, but you can't have all of those things. You can't be a huge charismatic sort of grandiose politician, and then also have the sort of the being humble, and sort of going down on that. That was like, you gotta pick 1 too. And I think we picked the right the right the right character. It took attempts to get the right president, but I think we've got the right one at the end.
Liz Allan [00:24:50]:
It took it's it's about that fine line, isn't it? It's kind of just just trying to to to walk the walk the fine line. But if we kind of talk about food. So it's it you know, it's funny. Probably 6 months, 6 9 months ago, I did I've never heard of FUD.
James Court [00:25:10]:
Yeah. I've gotta be careful. Are we gonna be careful? because that's why people don't know what FUD is.
Liz Allan [00:25:14]:
so, yeah, It is fear uncertainty and doubt. And it and and a lot of that has been going on in in the in the mainstream media, hasn't it lately? and it tends to be around electric vehicles and electric vehicle charging. So I wanted to just get your thoughts on it because I know you've been interviewed on TV by various, you know, people on different stations, maybe with an agenda themselves, how the heck do you manage that kind of situation where you're going in they're kind of guns blazing back at you. You know, how do you actually manage a situation like that to win them over?
James Court [00:25:57]:
Yeah. It's part of it. It's just my it's my personality anyway. It's trying to trying to convince, but not trying to win an argument. I don't go in there trying to win an argument. I try and go away. My thinking is, okay. obviously, this is, this is a way territory for me, and people watching aren't necessarily gonna be cheering me on or agree. if I can leave at least a couple of points, a couple of salient points to make them think, about that's a win not coming across as a sort of sandal wearing hippie that wants to destroy, people's freedoms and sort of want to take us back to the iron age. I don't want any of that either. so just trying to come across sort of in a way that perhaps they don't see from this this size of the argument that often. and as my partner told me, I've I've unfortunately, my body's been failing, so I used to play good sports, like, you know, rugby and football, and then my body has started failing, and I've become a, you know, a nearly middle age man playing golf. it's a natural progression for all of us. but I do spend quite a lot of my weekend talking to sort of mini night for Rogers about this agenda. And, so I've got quite a lot of experience talking. Yeah. I've got quite a lot of experience talking about EVs and the environment, to people, that don't necessarily agree and to do that in sort of a sort of, you know, reasonably respectful and sort of friendly way. so yeah, I've had I've I've had quite a lot of practice in that. and I think there's also just a way of Yeah. I mean, as a lobbyist, you've gotta talk to everybody if you can. so I've been a lobbyist for nearly coming on to 20 years. And most of that has been in a conservative led government, and I'm sort of not a natural conservative supporter, but I come from a family that were. And
Liz Allan [00:28:00]:
-- Right. --
James Court [00:28:00]:
it's also part of my job to speak to everyone. So I'm sort of used to that as well. And again, it's I've got friends who work in work for the for the tories and friends who sort of don't necessarily agree with everything I say, and I don't necessarily agree with everything they say. And I think trying to think of that down as siloed and trying to get trying to think that you're on one side of a battle, whether on certainly on these sort of cultural war issues. I just don't see how EVs possibly be part of a cultural wall. They've just cars. They've got a steering wheel and 4 wheels, and they are cheaper to run, and they will be cheaper to buy, and I think they are more convenient, and they're only gonna forget it more convenient, and they're fun. We're not trying to that's the thing I get down to. We're not this isn't a hair shirt strategy, I, you know, anybody that's driven an EV really likes them. There are definitely issues when it comes to charging, but that's only gonna get better. Yeah. And the most convenient way to charge your car is to plug it in at your house overnight. That is so much more convenient. to them going to a petrol station. And then for people like me who haven't got a driveway, I've got 3 land posts within, you know, a minute's walk of me, it's not, you know, it's not as good as having a driveway, but it's still much better than, and much cheaper than having a petrol or diesel car. So, yeah, I sort of sort of fall back on the fact that, guys, this isn't this is better. It's just better. And, you know, it's fine. It's gonna be fine. this is not going to end your world.
Liz Allan [00:29:31]:
Trust me. And not everybody not everybody dislikes them, you know, do they? And it's it's like
James Court [00:29:39]:
They're really clutching. They're really clutching. I mean, part of me has been surprised in the last 3 to 4 years, how bad sort of the dark lobbyists have been. I've been thinking, god, this agenda's really catching fire. And again, a lot of this was Boris Johnson, especially in this country. And it's very hard for sort of Boris Johnson's natural allies then to sort of come out against it. But even then, I was thinking I'm surprised. I'm surprised at how bad they're lobbying. And then suddenly in the last 6 months, they have kicked on another gear and So we have some idea of where the money is coming from, and it is coming from dark nasty places. and there is a coordinated, yeah, and there is a coordinated campaign being run. that's, yeah, that's for sure. And I've got to be honest, it has been brutal, and it has been fantastic. Yeah. They have been really good at their job. and you sort of feel at times like that you're a bit outgunned and definitely out resourced. so we can do what we can do and trying to either foot bust or just put together something that most reasonable people will think is reasonable. And I sort of I think the papers are going I hope most sane people can see, like, I think it's getting to the scraping the bottle of the barrel. Like, there was a headline on -- Oh.
Liz Allan [00:31:00]:
--
James Court [00:31:00]:
the there's a headline in the paper that was running a week long campaign, and it was EV users forced to have over 20 apps on their phone. I mean, well, firstly, they're not. Secondly, even if they are, if you want to look at the news, I've probably got 15 or 16 different news apps, one of which the paper has an app. There isn't this universal news app. so you're not forced to do it. very few e b drivers have to do it. It's actually about to become irrelevant anyway, because of all the great work e b have been doing on providing contactless cars. Yep. Even if all of those things weren't true, is that a is that a front page headline? Like, do you ring up, like, the news desk, hold the front page? I for some people, you've gotta have 16 apps on their phone. That Matt. I'm sure we reasonable people can think, like, oh, I think there may be
Liz Allan [00:31:57]:
-- Is there a point in this?
James Court [00:31:59]:
There's another one today saying mechanics don't want to EVs. and say, well, again, most, surely, most sane people will look at that and think, mechanics, you just need to up your game. Like, this is just learn how to do EVs. And secondly, I'd be thinking, why mechanics are wanting us to keep these cars which break down more often Well, I wonder why that is. Why do you want new vehicles? Which don't break down as often. It's almost like they've got sort of a different agenda to it.
Liz Allan [00:32:27]:
Material voting. I wonder what that is. Yeah. exactly. Yeah.
James Court [00:32:31]:
so, yeah, I do that we are definitely facing a sort of a huge pushback. and it is part
Liz Allan [00:32:40]:
for us, and
James Court [00:32:41]:
it is, yeah, and it's, you know, we do play a role in that, and also we play sort of there are environmental groups and their industry groups. There is this coalition of the willing, and we all do try and talk and we are trying to push out this sort of this this the the the positive message. And I think we are getting out there, but, you know, we are. Yeah. It is it is a complete onslaught.
Liz Allan [00:33:02]:
It's her it's horrendous, isn't it? The so the last two the last 2 weeks, I think 2 weeks ago, there was the the EV inverter commerce, died in a puddle. it wasn't a problem, was it? And it wasn't even an EV, and I think it was about -- -- EV. No. Wait. No. Why why do they do And they didn't and the poor woman on Twitter, because I think I don't know whether she posted it or whether somebody had found it in an old you know, it was it was it was something that had happened previously. They didn't didn't even ask permission to use it. This journalist just decided to post And and it was everybody who knew about EV and and probably anybody with a bit of common sense could actually Google was that car an electric car? I mean -- Come on. Exhaust plate.
James Court [00:33:52]:
It had an exhaust plate on the photo. It was ridiculous.
Liz Allan [00:33:56]:
It was and then there was another one, and I don't know whether you've seen this. This was about a garage, they were set they were selling cars and I can't remember which it was one of the usual, media companies, and it said, We hate EVs because they've shut us down.
James Court [00:34:16]:
You know? Yeah. But then I heard this a lot about even when elect were going into cars and the diagnostics were becoming electric in the nineties. and very, you know, if you had a car in the nineties, then you could you could plug it in or the mechanic plug it in and they would do the electronic diagnostics
Liz Allan [00:34:32]:
--
James Court [00:34:32]:
Mhmm.
Liz Allan [00:34:32]:
--
James Court [00:34:32]:
which was revolutionary because before then, you know, you didn't have a way of, you know, you had to do it. And people were campaigning, and the mechanics were campaigning that and didn't want that to happen. So it's like, okay. If you're a mechanic and you don't have electric diagnostics, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna find yourself shutting down very quickly. and I think it's the same thing now is that, you know, you need to upskill. This is the this is the this is the way the world is going. you can either adapt or adapt or die on it. so it doesn't have that much sympathy on that. I mean, I'd there are definitely gonna be well, let's say that. it's really hard to see who the losers are in this. Like, I still can't really think about it. There will definitely still be by 2050, some petrol and diesel cars on the road.
Liz Allan [00:35:16]:
Yeah.
James Court [00:35:17]:
there will be some really sort of extreme cases where it's hard, you know, our EV is gonna be is is the if an EV is gonna be possible, it's really hard to think by 2045, how that's still gonna be true. But I think this is the point is that we're only asking for new cars by 2030, which means that by 2030, between 2030% of cars on the road would be electric. next year, sort of this is basically, this is happening quite slowly. This is not as ambitious as as certainly a lot of people in climate and environmental groups wanted. The trajectory, the trajectory that some manufacturers are campaigning aids is in fact the business's usual case that S and M and T presented to the government, what the growth of EVs is broadly in line with what the industry thought they were gonna be doing until 2030. We're just codifying it, we're just making sure it happens. We're giving that very strong message to manufacturers But more point to investors is that if we want this charging infrastructure to come over, the investors need to know that, a, there's gonna be a market And at the moment, we have got this investment coming in. £6,000,000,000 has already been sort of earmarked by charging companies that is tangible. we will hit our 2030 charging targets -- Yeah.
Liz Allan [00:36:34]:
--
James Court [00:36:34]:
if we continue doing what we're doing. The worst thing we can do, if we delay it by 2 years, doesn't mean investors are gonna delay by 2 years. It means investors are gonna run away, and we need this money. And I think that's the second thing on this is that We are not asking for huge amounts of money from government. In fact, after this current part, the Levi funding and the rapid funds are charging, it's it's it's unlikely that this will need anything more than private sector investment going forward. The case has been made most of the money, the vast majority of the money that is gonna gonna be needed is gonna be coming from private investment. And that's why the 2030 target is so important.
Liz Allan [00:37:15]:
But what do you think about So in in say like, am I right in Sweden where they've actually provided subsidies for people. Obviously, we there were right there a few years ago, was it about 4 years ago? There was kind of some money that, you know, it's £4000 that you could put towards an EV or some kind of subsidy or something like that. for for EVs to come down in price, where where do you think would because I know I know we've got price parity, the gained theoretically, what was it about?
James Court [00:37:52]:
With total cost of ownership and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, other countries are definite other countries are definitely doing better than us on some of these. I mean, Norway, again, is the example. It would be great if there was still a grant, but actually, now I think we're moving I think obviously now we're moving to the fairness agenda. I think if you have the money, people are buying EVs. Like, if you have got the money for a new car, the EV option is very attractive. if you are a fleet buyer, the EV option is very attractive. what we need to start doing now is getting more people into EVs. And I think the argument against EVs being expensive is true, but then buying a new car is expensive. Shot stunningly stunningly few people go out and buy a new car.
Liz Allan [00:38:45]:
Yeah.
James Court [00:38:46]:
That's mainly 60 to 70% you're only giving year. It's by fleets. Large fleets are buying 60, 70% of cars. what we need to do is try and pump Prime that market so we can get secondhand, thirdhand, 4th hand EVs into people because they are cheaper to run. And that's the frustration is that you want sort of especially actually going to the U Less issue or going to the fairness agenda, a cost of living crisis, it's sort of, how do we get people that need it the most into EVs? And that's some of the stuff that we're gonna be looking at in the next 6 months is how can we get sort of a targeted support to people that could that sort of deserve, to have the EV experience but may not get it for another 7 or 8, 10 years' time until we get those secondhand UV sort of market up and going. So how can we accelerate that? because I do I do think that the the more we can get people into them, the more this argument just disappears.
Liz Allan [00:39:38]:
I agree. And and just to let you know, because I didn't tell you this bit, did I? our our EV secondhand. So we didn't buy you.
James Court [00:39:45]:
We didn't
Liz Allan [00:39:45]:
buy a new. So so, you know, Yes. The market
James Court [00:39:50]:
is coming. The market is coming because it, you know, in pre-twenty 19, I think there was a dozen models in the UK. I think last year, I over a 150. And it was around 2019, 2020 that the carmakers on the whole, all of them began to have an easy off offering. Fleet markets usually take 3 to 4 years to recycle. So we are beginning to see that
Liz Allan [00:40:13]:
2020
James Court [00:40:15]:
car market become secondhand. even secondhand cards are really expensive, which is why we need to be looking at sort of how can we do, salary sacrifice schemes are fantastic. sort of it's paid before tax and you can save sort of 20 or 40 percent. that's how I afford it. I would never have been able to afford to run or lease a brand new car. the only reason I can afford sort of the car we've got is because it's on salary sacrifice. And that would be that's it's not just affording an EV. I just couldn't afford it any type of new car. so how can we expand that? I think that's gonna be key. And then octopus energy, octopus EV, sorry, have now started salary sacrifice on secondhand cars.
Liz Allan [00:40:57]:
They have. a brilliant idea.
James Court [00:40:58]:
Brilliant. So brilliant. So we're we're gonna see some really affordable. But the cheapest way to buy, the cheapest way to run a car is a salary sacrifice. whether it's EV or not, and you can only get EV. Oh, sorry, sacrifice. So that's the the cheapest car you can get is gonna be a secondhand EV, full stop. full stop. And that's brilliant. That is gonna change, and I hope more sort of in in a innovative thinking around that is gonna happen. So, yeah, things are things are happening. I think we've just got, hopefully, the government will I don't yeah, that they need to have a backbone on it. I think they will lose votes they go back on it, they're gonna lose investment on it. We've just had £4,000,000,000 worth of investment from Jaguar Land Rover to build, gigafactory.
Liz Allan [00:41:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.
James Court [00:41:43]:
They did that because they thought we were gonna have a 2030 target. If we don't like, that's a huge investment So I hope that the people arguing against it lose out. it is one of the most frustrating things about our political system. is that if we put 2030 to the vote impartments, it would get 600 vote 600 votes. I'd be amazed if the aunties counted more than 50 votes. All parties agree on it. but because there are a dozen people in the Tory party, that holding it up, it's suddenly it's under threat, and it's frustrating. And sort of that's, yeah, it's certainly not where I think the people are. it's definitely not where the parliamentary parties are. It's not where exactly.
Liz Allan [00:42:24]:
Yeah. And, like
James Court [00:42:25]:
and, like I don't know who they're listening to. I don't I don't know who they're listening to. They're saying they're listening to industry. and you've got energy UK, the energy industry is saying we need it. SMT are saying we you don't budge from 2030. Fleet are saying don't budge from 2030. And the ChargePoint operators are all saying, don't budge on this. It goes back to that thing that I was saying that 2019 suddenly started having people wearing suits and talking business and getting serious, and that was the message that government was getting. It's like, okay, industry and the companies are serious about that. We're now at this point where it's like, all of the industries I can think of are pro this. So what industry are you thinking of? What what is this? What is this? I can't think of what industry other than the obvious oil and gas industry. Yeah. That's where I was going to be. Yeah. I don't know.
Liz Allan [00:43:10]:
But then but if you think about I mean, you we we are we both know that oil and gas is massive still, isn't it? You know? And and actually, they're they're clinging on by their fingertips to try and, you know, keep this in their in their grasp. And and and I get it. You know, I mean, there was they worked out recently. I'm slightly tangenting. Good word. you know, they worked out re there was a thing recently about a PR company kind of hyping up heat pumps, wasn't it? The negativity about heat pumps, we knew where that came from. That came from that sector as well. you know, so come on. We've gotta be honest about this. We, you know, I'm just saying I'm not saying it to you. I'm just saying it out loud. You know, we we've gotta know that it's gotta be there.
James Court [00:43:54]:
You have you have the worry is you sound like a conspiracy theorist. I am not a conspiracy theorist. Like, I don't believe in conspiracy theorists. but this is yeah. This isn't a conspiracy theorist. It's just it's obvious. True. If you're an oil and gas company, obviously you'd be lobbying against this. I know that, you know, they have lobbyists doing this type of stuff. my partner is also, the queen of heat pump Twitter, Clint Cowton. So she's also we're fighting this on both sides. and it is, you know, it is obvious that what the incumbent are trying to do. So, and it's a difficult thing to fight against, especially if you do, as I say, try and link it into a cultural which it doesn't it has no right being any part of
Liz Allan [00:44:39]:
the culture. I know. It's it's gotta be, you know, so that the headlines for clicks Right. And
James Court [00:44:46]:
that's what I was saying. And I don't and when I this is so the conspiracy theorists, when they start to lose me, the newspapers are not in on this necessarily. there is certainly some may know the PR companies. They may know some of the sources of it, but this is not a coordinated of conspiracy Giles Corinne is not part of this dark web. He just happened to write an article that absolutely took light and sort of the clicks on were huge the most of his career. And then suddenly every newspaper editor was like, oh, god, if we mention EVs in the headline, we get loads of clicks
Liz Allan [00:45:21]:
Yeah.
James Court [00:45:21]:
so a lot of it was just down to that. And then sort of that momentum sort of opened up a campaigning opportunity. So, like, yeah. And I also think John's car and then sold his crap EV car for a good EV car. so the nobody ever mentioned that, like, he's sicks in every now and then that he still drives an EV, swapped it, for a notoriously unreliable car to a notoriously quite good city car. So, yeah, man man ditches crap car for a good car isn't quite the story.
Liz Allan [00:45:56]:
It doesn't get it doesn't help clicks, does it, really? So --
James Court [00:46:00]:
No. You know? No. But -- That's certainly that did change the tone of debate because you know, it did get a huge amount of attraction, and he is a very funny writer. And usually, I like reading it when it doesn't disagree with my world view, yeah, it's funny that. Yeah. I really like him. He doesn't write that when he when I agree with him. I really hate him when I Okay. I don't. Yeah. I'm I'm sort of aware of my own cognitive dissonance on that.
Liz Allan [00:46:26]:
But you're doing are you doing so much? to kind of counter all of this anyway, aren't you?
James Court [00:46:33]:
Yeah. And they're we and we're doing what we can, and that's it. There are sort coordinated groups, and we all do talk, and we are all sort of there is there is a there is this coalition of the willing, we are trying to get get it out there, and I suppose spread the resources where we can. So what's the what's the right role for the EVA? What's the right role for fair charge, what's the right role for Chargebee K, what's the right role for new automotive, for what there are lots of groups around that are doing this. So, yeah, where do you play? Where do you where's the best place for you to do? What's the best thing for you to do? No. and there are people behind the scenes who are not sort of necessarily upfront, who are doing huge amounts of work as well. So it is a collective effort. and I think we'll be fine. I think we'll be fine. But, yeah, it's a part of it's a part of my job. I mean, I've gotta be honest, it's sort of on on one hand, it's re it's sort of it's been a satisfying month because we've got our messaging out there, and I've got out there, and that's quite nice. But I kinda feel like, well, like, on the other hand, I wish I I wish the last 2 months hadn't hadn't had this deluge, but it's nice that we sort of it is, on the one hand, it is satisfying to go out and do it. the things that we much prefer doing are much doing other things like the charging regs and sort of trying to push a positive sort of agenda through parliament and trying to get through things through Whitehall. and that's sort of more sort of it's it's it's slightly actually more rewarding because you're achieving positive change. And I think the charging recs is a really good example, that things are gonna get better because of that. and I think the 2030 thing it would be great if it can get pushed through and it's sort of I've been working on it for got 3 or 4 different companies now since 2020. So, it would be personally satisfying to get it over the line. actually the charging rates. That was something that the EVA were sort of really key in in in doing and pushing through and the added value for members. I hope that's gonna bring. is huge. So, yeah, that's sort of the lane I'd prefer to be in rather than surfing surfing a tighter shit is not what I really want to do. Even if I'm look even if you're looking really good surfing on a on a tighter shit, you're still surfing on a tighter shit.
Liz Allan [00:48:52]:
Exactly.
James Court [00:48:53]:
Oh, I'd swear on this podcast.
Liz Allan [00:48:55]:
Yeah. Course you are. I'm sure people who are listening and watching will not mind.
James Court [00:49:01]:
That's that was a new metaphor that had just come to me. Yeah. So I couldn't stop myself from saying it.
Liz Allan [00:49:07]:
Come on. I'm from Yorkshire originally. fine. I don't know. It is what it is.
James Court [00:49:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Liz Allan [00:49:14]:
Do you want something that
James Court [00:49:15]:
will get more normal?
Liz Allan [00:49:17]:
Exactly. Do you want to talk about? So there's a couple of things that is to kind of think about finishing off. Do you wanna mention the survey? So you've just you've just actually had a sir survey. The dates just finished for the survey, hasn't it? And Yeah.
James Court [00:49:31]:
So we closed this weekend. last of all we did a couple of years ago, we got over a 1000 responses this year. We got over 1600 responses, which is tastic. And, again, thanks to you and other people who have helped spread it and retweet it. there is a gold mine of information there. I've started going over some of it. there's some really interesting findings.
Liz Allan [00:49:54]:
specifically for tonight. --
James Court [00:49:56]:
for charging and also there's a bit of policy on there as well and what people might see on some of the salary sacrifice stuff on the VAT. where, yeah, there's stuff about sort of the government policy in it. There's stuff about batteries in it, and there is sort of Yeah. That's the general driver experience, but there's a lot of stuff about charging in there as well and what people wanna see in people's experiences of it. it shouldn't surprise anybody that the vast majority of people over 90% of people, love their EV and wouldn't go back. And, you know, that is quite I can't think of any other technologies that get that high sort of support. And again, vast majority of people would recommend it to family and friends. And I think people saying they would go back to petrol and diesel were miniscule. So
Liz Allan [00:50:43]:
-- Good.
James Court [00:50:44]:
Yeah. The the the the proof is in the pudding. proof, is it?
Liz Allan [00:50:49]:
It is in the pudding. Yes. Yes. It is. That's right. I'll I'll do that right.
James Court [00:50:52]:
It is absolutely -- Yeah.
Liz Allan [00:50:53]:
You didn't. --
James Court [00:50:54]:
proof is
Liz Allan [00:50:54]:
in the pudding. Yep. Yep. you've you've made your pudding, and now you've gotta look at your pudding to see what stock group you've got in it. So that's the way pudding is. So that's gonna so you're going to be disseminating that
James Court [00:51:09]:
over a few weeks. Yeah. There's so much information into it. We're gonna be disseminating in the next couple of months because there's so much and also we've got other things that we're launching. So we are shortly going to be launching our constituency map, which is going to show for every parliamentary constituency, how many EVs that were there, and how many charges are there. so people can click on their own sort of area and I think if you're in an area that doesn't have great, the sort of charging infrastructure definitely something to write to your MP about. And MPs will know what their local patch is. So we're giving that information. so we'll be launching that shortly. And then we've got some policy papers actually expanding on some of the stuff that we were talking about. so how do we get people who can't afford new cars? into EVs. So we'll be launching those back policy paper, in the next 4 to 6 weeks as well. So we've got a lot of stuff coming out as well as more deals and hopefully member discounts that we can announce. we're always on the lookout for member discounts love a good member discount. So we've got some new ones coming down the line. and, yeah, it's exciting. It's exciting. and again, changes to the website, more blogs. We've got a great events page now. So I think, yeah, we can if there's an EV event nearby, let us know, and we can put it on our event, and that gets a lot of views. So it's all yeah. It's it's it's it's all happening. It's all quite exciting. not having that much of an August off No. Everything's coming to a head. Yeah. Everything's coming to a head overall in August, which it was a terrible planning by me. looks, I'm not really missing much of the summer anyways.
Liz Allan [00:52:49]:
No. I I agree. I think we're not neither is a missing very much because it's all been a bit pants this month, doesn't it, really? Yeah.
James Court [00:52:57]:
You know? So, you know, what better what what more what more what better use of my time than?
Liz Allan [00:53:04]:
Exactly. Exactly.
James Court [00:53:06]:
continuing this.
Liz Allan [00:53:07]:
So so for those who are interested in finding EVA England, it's evaengland.org.uk. Yep. Ant internet. Ant internet. Ant internet. So so James -- And we've
James Court [00:53:20]:
got, yeah, and we've got Twitter, we've got we're on Twitter, we're on Facebook, and I think also if you're a nexus member or a there are certain groups that we've got a discount code for. So look on, if you're on a EV group or an EV forum on, Facebook have a look and see if you're one of the groups that are signed up to it, and we've got discounts, for them. So, yeah, it's
Liz Allan [00:53:44]:
-- I'm now a member. So I'll be looking at
James Court [00:53:46]:
the member discounts. Yeah. And you also get a wonderful newsletter letting everybody know what's going on in the industry and more recently what's been going on in parliament. so, yeah, it's it's a -- That's good.
Liz Allan [00:53:58]:
And I can see your old -- £20 a month.
James Court [00:54:00]:
What's £20 a month? Ah, £20 a year.
Liz Allan [00:54:04]:
A year? exactly.
James Court [00:54:05]:
I mean, I think £20 a month. I think £20 a month is still a bargain, but no. Yeah. £20 a year.
Liz Allan [00:54:10]:
I know. Exactly. That's that's good. I can also see you on Instagram as well. So what I'll do, I'll make sure that everything all of your links, everything are in the show notes, when this when this goes live. So just to say, just keep doing what
James Court [00:54:26]:
you're doing.
Liz Allan [00:54:26]:
It you're just
James Court [00:54:26]:
an absolute star. Honestly, I
Liz Allan [00:54:30]:
can't just I can't tell you. I should
James Court [00:54:32]:
be on
Liz Allan [00:54:33]:
the I
James Court [00:54:33]:
should be on the I'm yeah. So it sounds like therapy, actually. I should have been on the couch sort of sort of venting, but, no, this would be a really good fun.
Liz Allan [00:54:40]:
Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Well, listen, James, thank you ever so much. It's it's being brilliant. so I hope everybody else has enjoyed watching and listening to it. So please do get in contact with James. Have a look on the VA England website The only way we can move this forward is by moving forward together.
James Court [00:55:01]:
Yeah. And it makes a difference every member sort of grows our strength and helps our capacity to help fight this stuff.
Liz Allan [00:55:07]:
to it, and 20 quid come on, you know?
James Court [00:55:09]:
Come on. That's nothing.
Liz Allan [00:55:12]:
Cheapest chips, that isn't it, really? On that note, I'm gonna go now. I'm gonna say thank you to James. I'm gonna say thank you to you all for watching and listening, and I shall see you next time. Bye bye. fun.