Liz Allan [00:00:05]:
Right. On today's podcast, I have doctor Derek. Hey? Say that again. I was I was I was there? as it's still counting. Oh, that's weird. Oh, good. That alright then. Right. I shall start now. It's saying it we're saying recording and uploading at the top anyway, so it should be working. Right. Okay. So on today's podcast, I have got Derek McLGlashan. Now it's doctor Derek McGlashan, I'm going to say as well. from and he's the director of son soul tie soul blah blah blah. He's the director of saltier Sustainability Limited. Now I got got my mother's teeth in when I said that, didn't I? So so welcome, Derek. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining me.
Derek McGlashan [00:00:59]:
Thanks, Liz.
Liz Allan [00:01:01]:
So we spoke. It's quite a few months ago now, isn't it? And we kinda had a really, really long chat, a really, really interesting chat. And and I just wanna give a give the folks who are listening and watching a little bit of an idea about you what you do. You work in the decarbonization of shipping. Now That in itself, it just opens up very many we've had conversations about around this anyway. But I know that you so like I said to you before we started recording, you are the first person to come on the podcast who's actually talking about the decarbonization of shipping. How the heck did you get into it? Please tell us.
Derek McGlashan [00:01:40]:
Well, really, it started in ports. by by complete fluke, and I've been I've been working as an academic, I guess, that title introduced me, give that away. And someone that I've worked with in the past tapped me on the shoulder and said, this port's looking for a little bit of help on on something called the environment that they don't really know anything about it. Can you can you help? Mhmm. And I said, I I suppose I could. And I went along and did a little bit of work for them and gave a presentation to the board of directors, and that that wasn't the smoothest meeting I'd ever had, if I'm honest. Okay. And anyway, long very long story short is, you know, I helped them out over a number of years occasionally intermittently, and then eventually they offered me a full time job. Mhmm. And I worked I worked there for over 20 years, and and eventually ended up leading health safety environment sustainability and regulate regulatory matters. And then eventually decided it was time to set up on my own and see see what else I could learn from other places. So started imports, I've I've kind of dabbled in the width, but on and off, but, obviously, ports of that interface between
Liz Allan [00:02:56]:
between what happens on land and what happens obviously. I've never heard it being classed as the wet bit. I've gotta see. That kinda that tickled me as it was then. Goodness me. So So right. Okay. So you were you were an early adopter, weren't you? You know, so as you just said, you start you started working this in this number of years ago, how where do you start looking at the decarbonization in that area. How it just to me, it just kind of blows my mind when I think about it, and, obviously, you've talked to me before this. And I just want you to try and put some context to it because You were talking before before we started recording about the decarbonization of things like cruise ships and container ships. I mean, they're like floating cities. Anyway, aren't they? How do you even start by how do you look at this? And And what's the you know, what what do you need to think of if you're trying to do this?
Derek McGlashan [00:04:02]:
Well, if if we go back to the last century when I started in this game, I started by sitting down with my then boss and said, I can save you a fortune by cutting your electricity -- Yeah. -- if we just do a few a few small tweaks to how we do things. And he said, no. Interesting.
Liz Allan [00:04:23]:
Oh, seriously. Oh my god. Have you told him what this did you tell him what the small tweaks were? And he said, no, then, or did he just say no to stuff? off with?
Derek McGlashan [00:04:31]:
He said not interested. I said, look. I can see I reckon I said that that I could I could take a good 25% off your electricity bill. and probably similar off your diesel bill. And he said, it's just it's peanuts. He said, no. Interested It's just not worth the accuracy. It's just go and do something else. Find something else to do. God. fast forward about 5 years, the attitude was very difficult. I can imagine.
Liz Allan [00:04:59]:
Yeah. You know you know that thing that you said you could do for us. would you like to come back and do it, please?
Derek McGlashan [00:05:05]:
Well, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, we start so you start with the easy wins, obviously, and we started looking at, you know, lighting and so like many and and then heating and hot water and Lots lots of buildings are designed and built by the same the same organization. And so, you know, there are some I've encountered some peculiar vested interest through through my career. Okay. And one one building in particular was it was it was just very strange. The heating was over spec. phenomenally, the windows were quite bizarre. And I later discovered that that the building had been designed around the windows which had been left in the yard from another another job.
Liz Allan [00:05:48]:
Oh god. That's a bit weird. Yeah.
Derek McGlashan [00:05:52]:
lots of windows. So it must have been an enormous drill, and and the the boilers were completely overspect. And they had what they called a recirculating hot water system So these are gas boilers powering the hot water, which meant that the taps were hot at all times. Okay. because the pipe runs were enormous. Right. which meant that all the water in the hot water system was running like a radiator continually on the off chance that you turned the tap on. God. And so we we have the gas bill in that building by disconnecting all the hot water taps from the the gas boiler -- Right. -- and just putting in a local little water heat on the side underneath the top. That makes sense. Flippin' neck. And then that you know, that was that. That that have the that have the the the hot water bill. But then I couldn't understand why the heating was so phenomenal and the electricity -- Yeah. -- was just bizarre. And the the thermostat for the heater had been plastered into a wall. Okay. So if you can imagine 2 walls joining, the point at which this partition wall butted up against the main wall was where the thermostat was. Right. And so half the thermostat was visible, and the other half was under plaster. Just no one had thought about, shall we just move this thermostatic valve a couple of centimeters another way? or leave a space. It it was plaster didn't very neatly. I bet. But, therefore, it didn't work very well. Oh my god. And then in in in another large open space, there were 6 independent air conditioning units. all of which could be controlled by anyone in the room. So they they were all competing with each other. and with the central heating run off the gas. So it was no surprise that the electricity bill was phenomenal, and and so was the gas bill. Yeah. So
Liz Allan [00:07:52]:
So was that in the port then? Was that in the port in the buildings in the port?
Derek McGlashan [00:07:56]:
That was in our our building in a port, but you'll find the same in lots of other places too where you know, particularly in the the 19 19 nineties early 2000, people weren't as focused on energy efficiency, you didn't need EPC certificates, etcetera. No one was doing energy audits. And so, you know, when I you know, dusting myself down after falling over, then we started to look at lots of other buildings and came up with lots of other ideas. And that's before we got into
Liz Allan [00:08:29]:
the trialing different forms of lighting. I was gonna say, but but like you I don't I don't know whether we should be jumping onto this straight away because you would you would talk when we spoke over the phone ages ago, you were talking and we did I did mention this before we started. You were you were talking about comparing decarbonization of a ship to battery electric vehicles and EV charging, weren't you? So and you were talking about the the MVA. Now that blew my mind. So can you just explain When we're looking at decarbonizing decarbonization of shipping, so so cruise ships and container ships What is the how can you actually compare the 2 hat? You know, You explain it to me, but can you explain it to everybody else?
Derek McGlashan [00:09:25]:
Yeah. Sure. So your your so a cruise ship, it'll depend on how big it is, obviously, and and to some extent the weather. But it could take, say, between 3 and 20, maybe even more MVA. So to put that into context, 20 MVA would be a good sized port within a good sized industrial So you're you're talking about
Liz Allan [00:09:49]:
a ship that's been electrified. So it's it's it's running on a battery.
Derek McGlashan [00:09:56]:
and it's taking -- Yeah. -- to plug it in, it's taking the juice of a whole port. Is that what you're saying? Oh, no. No. No. No. I would say. not even that much. Okay. That's just to run what you would call the hotel load. Alright. So that so that's the heating, the lighting, moving ballast water about and, you know, if if you move things on a ship, then you need to counter that with your ballast tanks. Otherwise, it'll lean over And so you have pumps working and and so on, and that's that's what uses the as we use the juice as it were. So no. The this is just for hotel load when they're import. I got you. Just to do the basic things that they need to do to keep it as an operating base
Liz Allan [00:10:39]:
Right. Okay. So with the -- That's not even thinking of batteries to -- I get oh my god. I see what you're saying now. So not Right. because she was saying didn't weren't you that there there aren't many ships that have been electrified so far. So so let when it's import oh my god. I get what you're saying now. So when it's import, just to keep it there without any passengers on That's the amount of power that it's taking. Oh, oh, that's not a small amount. Is it really?
Derek McGlashan [00:11:10]:
Oh, well. It's not. And it's not the sort of thing that you can just flick a switch and it's there. No. And and so you so there's potential to really stress your energy grit because, you know, you're only taking that power when the ship's there. Mhmm. Not when it's not there, obviously. Yeah. I know. And and and and so that's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be there just when it's needed, which might be it might be 20 days a year. Maybe 60 days a year. But what if you've got 3 cruise ships in the same day? Lots of ports do have that, don't they? The big ones? Absolutely. Yeah. Indeed. And in fact, some aren't that big, you know, I'm a non exec director from for -- Mhmm. -- Port Authority. And that in the in in terms of employee numbers, etcetera, is relatively small. However, we, you know, we can have 3 cruise ships in and a day. It's a huge area of water. You know, you can cargo ships in at the same time. And so, you know, they they all have they all have a a hotel look while they're while they're alongside. And so getting that energy to to some of these potentially remote in the context of the energy distribution grid area is quite quite a challenge. It sounds it. My god.
Liz Allan [00:12:40]:
So so we were we were talking about kind of the the problems with with decarbonization of of of shipping anyway, weren't we? before we started. But, I mean, is it is it possible to actually look at the whole decarbonization of of of ships like the that big. I know you men you mentioned to me hydrogen, didn't you? And, you know, and I know that there's a lot of some peep you know, there's a lot of skepticism about hydrogen, but, you know, but I've heard about it being used in in sort of like big industry like this. Where do where do we where do we sit? Where do we stand with kind of you've just explained now that when it's actually in poor, this is the amount of electricity that it needs just to run. just to keep it going. So so how do you actually electrify a ship then?
Derek McGlashan [00:13:39]:
How? Well, I guess, is do you electrify it, or do you use something else? Yeah. So if if you look at the the really big container lines, they all seem to be betting on methanol as their propulsion fuel. And so the the really big lines have been placing orders for, I think, is about 19 or 20 of them on order now. And so these are your huge containerships. Right. Okay. There are others who suggest that ammonia is a likely future fuel. It's more energy dense than than hydrogen, and it it comes with its own challenges as well. hydrogen's probably most likely in inshore waters for vessels not transiting huge distances. because the energy density of hydrogen is quite poor in Gaseous form. Mhmm. You know, relative to hydrocarbon today. And then there's a lot that are various transition fuels like LNG, for example. Yes. So a number of cruise ships have adopted LNG as a transition -- Okay. -- as a way to as a way to improve, you know, quality and and reduce emissions. Mhmm. But, clearly, that's a transition for you. Yeah. And then when you get to smaller vessels again so here in the Thames, well, say, here today, I mean, Graves End in the Port London Authority's offices. So they've they transitioned all of their own fleet of survey vessels and and pilot vessels, etcetera, over to HBO, hydrogenated vegetable oil, which is a form of a form of biodiesel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. essentially. And and so that's significantly reduced their carbon footprint. There's still some hydrocarbon in there. It's still a blend, but there's a large extent is from from
Liz Allan [00:15:49]:
from biofuel. Yeah. So it's a lot smaller. And
Derek McGlashan [00:15:52]:
yeah. And so we've seen other operators in the Thames to do something similar, but it costs more. So you have to be willing to to
Liz Allan [00:16:02]:
pay for that benefit -- Yeah. -- to the environment. Yeah. Yeah. And you were talking about this some actual government grants or go yeah. Government grants and funding, didn't you? that's kind of available to help decarbonize ports and shipping?
Derek McGlashan [00:16:17]:
Yeah. So the UK government took a lead on decarbonizing ports. and shipping. But more more so the shipping piece, COP 26 in in Glasgow. Is that 2 years ago now, I guess? and they created the UK Shore Office Can't quite remember what that stands for at the at the moment. But, anyway, so they they have a port of
Liz Allan [00:16:45]:
£200,000,000
Derek McGlashan [00:16:46]:
to spend to assist the decarbonization agenda in in shipping. And they've released a number of funding calls over the last few years. Port of London was successful in in gaining one of them to run a project called the Hydrogen Highway project, which is looking at a whole hydrogen ecosystem of generation of green hydrogen offshore wind farms, transiting that with autonomous vessels into a port facility, and then it's all more distribution and use case through an estuary. The estuary being examined, being detained, but it's all theoretical, and so in theory could be applied to to any similar set
Liz Allan [00:17:30]:
Okay.
Derek McGlashan [00:17:30]:
And the work package I've been most closely involved with has been working with regulators on the regulatory hurdles associated with hydrogen in ships refueling or bunkering as it's known in the trade. Okay. And And and, you know, that starts to raise eyebrows about, you know, how far into a city can you have hydrogen fueled vessels or can you transit? Hydrogen as a fuel because, you know, building pipelines is very expensive. It's it's cheaper to move that by sea. at least in the short term until pipelines are built. So how far could you move that biopsy to avoid getting to dig up bought streets and installed new pipes.
Liz Allan [00:18:18]:
because you were saying about the regulators were a little bit slow to slow to move on this, didn't you? You said you said they were quite they were quite conservative with these new approaches.
Derek McGlashan [00:18:29]:
Yeah. So I think, you know, the the point here is that regulators are here to make sure that things are done in the right way depending on what topic it is that they are regulating. So whether it's the whether the it's appropriate environmental hurdles or whether it's appropriate from a safety perspective or from a community perspective, And, you know, generally, people that work for a regulator are quite conservative. They like to follow rules because they -- That's what they do. Yeah. That's what they do. Absolutely. And we should all follow the rules, obviously, and should know what those rules are before we apply to do things. but, you know, not everyone does. So they so regulators need to go through a process of checking to make sure. And when you've got novel technologies, and and novel ideas that that stretches the regulator because they've not had to deal with that before. And so there may need to be a process of learning or upskilling or additional resource, and that may or may not fit well with the prevailing financial climate in the public sector. And so where I think we are now is that lots of people want to sue see alternative fuels succeed. Mhmm. And alternative technology succeed. And I think the regulators are now realizing that they need to upscale. I think some have known for a while. And you know, they they maybe had a challenge to find the funding to to do that, or maybe it's find the skills -- Yes. -- to recruit them. Maybe to both. You know, because this is it's this is new to everybody. You know, it's new to those that are on the entrepreneurial side, and it's news and it's new for for those that are the regulator. And so there's a bit of it's a bit of patience required with regulators. Of course, when you're doing something new and you're a change agent and maybe someone who's a bit entrepreneurial, then you you might not be overly patient with a slow cautious approach. I can imagine. And so sometimes there could be some friction when you put people that are cautious and rule bound in the same rule as entrepreneurial and impatient. And so we need to we need to find a way through that. And that's part of the that's part of the theory behind the hydrogen highway project was to get all of these parties in a room and talk through what the hurdles are and what needs to change to make to make things better. And whilst we're not expecting laws to change as a result of these projects directly. We hope that what comes out of it will be you know, highlighting what enabling actions might need to take place. Mhmm.
Liz Allan [00:21:23]:
I hope so how far So the hydrogen highway project, how far is it in, you know, moving how fast how how long has it been going?
Derek McGlashan [00:21:32]:
So it's been going for a little over a year. Okay. It's a 3 year project.
Liz Allan [00:21:36]:
Okay. Okay.
Derek McGlashan [00:21:37]:
So we we're we're at that stage now where we're in detailed workshops with the health and safety executive and the Maritime Coast Guard Agency and and, you know, the Harbor authority. So there's 3 regulators there. And and then various other interested parties and academics, And in fact, I was I was presenting on the project with my colleague, George, who's the project manager for the project and is doing a sterling job. And and he said, you know, it's my job to help the cats, and then he said, whoops am I allowed to say But, actually, it's a really good it's a really good analogy because, you know, you've got the that kind of entrepreneurial vision on one side. You've got you've got regulators, albeit consultants that work for health and safety executive on a on on another side, who are very good at saying here are here are the regulations and these things look risky. And and then you've got academics who say, but this is a really good idea. This could be fantastic. And so you have you have all of these different perspectives all all running into one room. And so it's
Liz Allan [00:22:46]:
It can be interesting. I bet. I bet. For sure. Goodness me. So you were also talking about a conversation that you had with Greenpeace. at one point, didn't you? About about barriers to decarbonization? Just just to explain a little bit about that, will you?
Derek McGlashan [00:23:02]:
Yeah. So I guess context is I was at a corporate event, and there was I was a chap. He seemed to be getting rather a little sick from someone. And, anyway, I I ended up speaking to him for a while, and he said, you know, what do you do? And I said, well, I oversee, you know, stainability for a poor company, etcetera, and he was like, oh, alright. You're one of them, are you? I said, oh, what are you? And he said he said, well, I work for Greenpeace. So I organized direct action against the big corporates like you. And I said, but do do we not want the same thing? But we're just trying we're just going about it a different way. You know? I'm influencing from within. trying to drive change and behavior and habits. And and, you know, you're doing it in a more direct way that has a different impact. And it's just you know, we probably each have the same ultimate goal. We're going about it in different ways. And, you know, I wouldn't go about it the way you're going about it. I accept you've got a right to protest, and that's absolutely fine. it's annoying when I'm trying to go somewhere and you've, you know, super glued yourself to to the motorway or you've, you know, stopped trains running, etcetera. And, you know, he explained that he felt this was the only way he could see change and that, you know, he felt that I was just a corporate slave just trying to stick with the state of school. Okay. So so that that was an interesting start, but I was up for a challenge. Good job. And so Yeah. So so, you know, you know, I said, well, look. You know, it's not easy. Just breathing a magic wand and decarbonizing everything. said, well, you know, you you you work for a port. Thousands of sheds, they could all be covered in solar panels. You could generate the country's electricity. Well, maybe not the countries, but, yes, there's a lot of shed. There's a lot of roof space on sheds, and, you know, yes, you could put solar panels on them, but there are there are barriers to doing that. You know? First of all, you need you need a great connection, and that's not always easy. It's not as simple as you get power in there before it can go out. You need to understand the the metering processes that take place. And, you know, then there are more kind of physical issues like the the weight of solar panels is not insignificant, and not all buildings were designed to take that. No. You know, buildings have to be designed to meet building standards, and so they've gotta be able to cope with wind loading and the the weight of snow and so on and so forth. Mhmm. But solar panels were in fact identified at the time with the building for a lot of the well, probably we you'd be best calling historic infrastructure in lots of our ports. And So he he said, well, hey. You you can reinforce the roof. Like, you can, and and that costs money, and that starts to make the economics of the solar panels a little bit more difficult. And, you know, is that a core business case of an infrastructure provider that creates birthing space for ships and, you know, distribution of goods is generating electricity, really, their core business function. Is that what they want to spend their money on, or do they want to spend their money on making that more efficient? Would it be would it be better to buy that renewable energy in rather than create it on-site? So then then you've got the insurance problem. He said, of course, you can insure solar panels. Well, the the issue is about if you're drilling 10,000 holes in the in the roof of the shed, and you're storing £35,000,000 worth of paper in that shed, what happens if there's a water leak? I can't maintain that roof if it's covered in solar panels. It's no easy to take the panels off and then fill up a a hole that Waters managed to come through that that there was a screw fixing the solar panels in. So so, actually, in the past, I found that insurers have had a hurdle and said, no. I I don't think you should be putting solar panels in this room. And so laterally, we were getting to the stage where we were designing sheds to have solar panels. So we were designing them in at the start. rather than retrofitting them. But you don't build a new shade every day.
Liz Allan [00:27:25]:
No. You don't. No. Not multiple sheds either.
Derek McGlashan [00:27:30]:
No. Indeed.
Liz Allan [00:27:31]:
And that's all cost that's all yeah. That costs a lot of money anyway, doesn't it? Yeah. I toe I totally get where you're coming from. So But the but you did say that there has been a number of sheds that have that have had solar panels put on, didn't you?
Derek McGlashan [00:27:48]:
Absolutely. And there are loads all over the country. And, you know, if you've got a product in your shed that's not water sensitive, then that's that's absolutely fine if it you know, timber for battling for, you know, houses or you're decking for your garden or what have you. it's not the end of the world if there's a little drip of water. The the owner of your, you know, your weights that's gonna be saving your breakfast serial next month is probably not gonna be quite so happy if if water gets into the shipment damages their car. And I suppose when you're looking at cargo sheds, it's not as if they're built
Liz Allan [00:28:23]:
like you say, for for kind of masses of yeah. Like you say, masses of weight on the top. I'm just thinking myself when I've been in a in a port, and you see these port buildings, it's not that they look flimsy, but they don't look totally rugged enough to manage manage lots and lots of weight, I suppose. Yeah. They're designed for their functions. The story provide a cover for the guy. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You see, you've got me thinking about all this stuff now. My goodness. And I totally and I totally get it. I do wanna talk I do want you to talk about some of the other sustainability projects you've been working on, though, because you talked to me about quite a few, haven't you? like the floating pilot boats and red fuel reduction and things like that. So do you want to kinda just -- Yeah. -- go into some of those?
Derek McGlashan [00:29:15]:
We've wanted -- Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned pilot books. That's a so there there's a there's a that's a really good example of where it it required some initiatives. So for for years, I was trying to find someone who could help me identify methods to improve the fuel efficiency of our pilot boats. And there were various companies out there who would say, well, you know, we can give you this antifouling paint, and it'll you know, this will this will make life better, etcetera. But the vessels weren't really big enough for that a noticeable difference on their on their fuel efficiency. And, eventually, I got I got bored of speaking to people who couldn't come up with answers and we at the same that we take measures
Liz Allan [00:30:00]:
we take measures into our -- Just -- So -- I was gonna say just before you go on, explain what a pilot boat actually is for the people who don't know it. Sounds good. Yeah. Okay.
Derek McGlashan [00:30:11]:
So A pilot boat would take a pilot out to a larger vessel, who's a what's a pilot? What's an Air airline pilot doing in a in a vessel? So A pilot someone who knows the the local water well and is there to guide and advise the master or captain as you know them of the of a commercial vessel through through the waters, through the local waters because they can't be expected to know every single water where they visit. And so pilot will board a pilot vessel. Sometimes a helicopter, they were pretty rare in the UK for a pilot to be dropped by helicopter. And but it has it does happen in some some portion as well. So you're getting a small fast craft. bit bigger than a speedboat, and they'll go out to a pilot boarding station, which is just essentially little mark on your hydrographic chart. There's no infrastructure actually there. And the pilot will come alongside your larger vessel, and a ladder will be thrown down the side of the vessel the pilot will clamber up the side of the vessel on and and head to the head to the the the bridge. And we'll we'll advise the master on on how to get there in the safest way, check the passage plan to make sure it's appropriate make sure they've got the right navigational charts, etcetera. And, you know, may have to make the decision that the vessel is going no further if they don't have the right navigational charts and navigate needs on them, etcetera. So they they've got that that kind of role as if you like, they're your they're a mountain guide, but for the seas. Okay. So they're like, you they're here specialist,
Liz Allan [00:31:53]:
aren't they? With lots of specialist knowledge. Okay. Okay. Indeed.
Derek McGlashan [00:31:58]:
And they get they get tested extensively, you know, and and they'll go through scenario, apply running, and we've got simulators that they've got to they've gotta show their their knowledge and experience on before they're allowed to go out there and start piloting a vessel. There are different classes of pilot depending on the size of vessel and the bits of water that are transiting through and so on. So, yes, it's quite it's quite a rigorous process.
Liz Allan [00:32:25]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Derek McGlashan [00:32:26]:
So, yeah, so that's the role of the pilot. And so the the purpose of the pilot board is to get the pilot out to the the vessel that needs pilots assistance, you know, really as quickly as possible of the sooner they they do the job and get back, the sooner they can do the next the next job. So these pilot boats are small and fast, them go out and go alongside. And so they were using a lot a lot of fuel, and I felt there must have been a better way to do it. And so, you know, using the car analogy of there are optimum revs for your car. And and you your your fuel efficiency is driven by the revs of your car. You know? And if you're in 5th gear traveling at 60 miles an hour. It's more more efficient than than if you're in second gear traveling at 40 miles an hour in the engine space. Yeah. We have. k. Yeah. So we started taking a really close note of the amount of fuel that was used for each job and the speeds the the Cox and the driver of the pilot vessel -- Yeah. -- travel that to get out and back. And so, you know, our pilot could have a maximum speed depending on the boat of between 21 and 23 knots. And and what we identified was depending on the vessel, the optimum speed was between 17 18 knots. So, you know, we took a few, you know, 3, 4 knots off the off the top speed. And, you know, it was obviously still there. Should should you need it in heavy weather? Sometimes you need to, you know, put the fruit down as it is. Yeah. Yeah. And and so once the crew started traveling at these speeds, we saw fuel efficiency improve by you know, we lost we're just a few usage by a third, which is phenomenal. Yeah. Really phenomenal. And, basically, that that added 3 minutes to the journey to get the pilot out to the ship, which maybe meant the last drags of the cup of tea drum before forget it. But, you know, there's always there's always a cup of tea -- Of course. I bet. Exactly. So But that was a really good process. And one one that really drove confidence because the workforce were involved in that. and they were they were really bought into it. They could see they could see the benefit. They could see why they were doing it. And you know, at at the time, we're we're actually going through a process of saying, you know, do we automate lighting and all sorts of other things? I said, well, actually, do you know what? Let's capture this motivation and get and and educate rather than automate. Yeah. Yeah. And that drove lots more exact ideas from from from the start. Yeah. Absolutely.
Liz Allan [00:35:12]:
I always say people because, I mean, the stuff that you're doing is is massive infrastructure improvement, isn't it? Or change, you know, change programs? I always say talk to the people that you're working with. Because if you just leave them out of it, then they're gonna they're not gonna be, you know, kind of embracing what the changes that you're trying to make if they're in it and they can see it. And actually, they're involved in it. then then they're more likely to actually be on board and go, yep. Brilliant idea. We've got some ideas as well, and they can throw their hat in currently as well.
Derek McGlashan [00:35:46]:
Yeah. I mean, another example from that era was was lighting. And perhaps not the biggest expense. But, again, sheds need sheds need light, and workshops need light. And you know, we were we were trying to work out whether to go compact fluorescence or or LED, and this would have been in the the mid noughties -- Yeah. -- sort of 2000 and 6, 7, somewhere about then. And so I persuaded my call colleagues in the Scottish part of the organization to go with LEDs, and my colleagues in English part of the organization prefer to come up with accents because they're all better understand. As we do. And and so we agreed that we would do we would do 2 projects and we would see what time do best. And both works, both get better light levels and and lower energy bills and that and that was great. The comeback fluorescence kept ping him. Good thing. They kept breaking. And we had to keep replacing them, and we had issues with harmonics. And in fact, the supplier changed every single one in a shed.
Liz Allan [00:36:56]:
twice -- No. -- because of the -- Oh my god. -- we were having.
Derek McGlashan [00:37:01]:
And in the end, we took them out and put the same LEDs in that we'd put in the the Scottish operation, which was which was really quite disappointing. Yeah. What what the LEDs did The I mean, this is old title. I've heard this story before, I'm sure. But what the LEDs did that the that the previous songs didn't do was they came on immediately. And, again, compact fluorescence don't come on immediately. And that was a huge saving. And if you think about the so what happens is you're in and out of shades. So people just leave the lights on. Right. because you can't turn the lights can't go ahead and turn the light on and then come back 20 minutes later to do the work you need to do. And so the best example of that was in was in the workshops. in in one of the ports in in the port of Leaf. And the port engineer there was really up for trying new fittings. And so I got I got a couple on test, and we put them above the electricians belt. The electricians bench rather. We seemed like a good idea given that we're gonna have to fit them all to get their feedback as to, you know, how it went. and we're doing a lot of night shift work at the time. And the the electrician, the next day, was absolutely over the moon. He said, I know I can now see what color
Liz Allan [00:38:22]:
of cable are working with. Oh my god. Okay. God.
Derek McGlashan [00:38:27]:
said I can see it. I've lost previously. I had to give a phone out and shying the talk. Oh my god. And I'm following up. That's quite important for an electrician, isn't it? It makes his job a lot easier. It makes his job a lot easier. So he was over the moon, and the other change it made was the guys would come in, switch the the workshop lights on, and then go on a cup of tea for half an hour because you had to wait for the lights warming up. Oh god. So the improvement in productivity -- Yeah. -- was -- Yeah. -- fantastic. And it also meant that, you know, bit farther down the line. We put daylight harvesting on and, you know, so on and so forth motion sensors and, you know, which further further cut the the use. But in the in the feed shed, What really made the difference was on these old son fittings, because it's food, you had to have a a a protective plastic layer over the light in case the in in case the bumper.
Liz Allan [00:39:25]:
Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. because you can't have glass. No. No. No. No. No. And
Derek McGlashan [00:39:32]:
the heat of these sawn lamps would melt the plastic from the inside, and so they would become more and more opaque. And and eventually reach a stage where they need it replaced because there wasn't enough light now. Now to replace a lamp in share that's full of feet is a really big jump because you've got a ticket all that. Yeah. You know, you may you may have 10,000 5, 10,000 tons feed in there. So that's a lot of product to move. Someone's gotta take, you know, with a front end loader and put in a truck and move to another shit. just to change these plastic cups. So we reckon, actually, these lights paid for themselves many times over, not just in electrical savings, not just in not having to replace blown luminaires. But just alone from having not having to replace these plastic protective sleeves. Oh my goodness.
Liz Allan [00:40:24]:
when you said that the heat did that, did that would that that wouldn't have caused a virus, though. Would it as well? No. No. No. It's just a gradual degradation. Yeah. Plastic. It's not it's not really melting. It's just the -- I know. But you know what? I think I know exactly the kind that you've you're talking about because we've had 2 lights in the house very similar to that where they've got just got lighter and lighter and lighter, and we could not hardly see anything. So you're kinda going in and going I've got no idea what's in here. So so, yeah, we've had proper old l a LEDs replacing them, which makes it makes such a difference, doesn't it?
Derek McGlashan [00:41:02]:
It makes a huge difference. And we put a huge amount of research into quick manufacturer to go -- A vet. -- without wanting to bore you. But, you know, lots of manufacturers in around that timescale, we're we're we're offering 5 and 10 year warranties. But lots of manufacturers were lasting 2 years in Ingo And Boston.
Liz Allan [00:41:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. So
Derek McGlashan [00:41:24]:
so we kind of actually, one of the things we did was, you know, through discussions with lots of other ports, we we kind of had our lessons learned session and, you know, we all picked each other's brains. I mean, ah, that didn't work. Alright. You've done that that, you know, and so that's as you do, and that it's just where you it's where the learning is, isn't it? So one of the things I learned from that was to only only go with the menu chair that's got an insurance back warranty.
Liz Allan [00:41:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine.
Derek McGlashan [00:41:54]:
Goodness me. a very valuable list.
Liz Allan [00:41:57]:
So so what what what what are you doing at the moment down there? So you're in gravesend at the moment, aren't you? Is it is it a bit secret squirrel or you're allowed to tell us what you're doing down there?
Derek McGlashan [00:42:09]:
Well, I've been doing some work with the environment team preparing them for the incoming director of sustainability. So I've just handed the team over to the incoming director to to the new director of sustainability 30. So so that's good. That team are all all settled with the new director. And and I've moved on to head up strategic projects. And so we've got a range of them. I can't really talk about yet because they're all they're all in this back vessel decarbonization space, but they're They're either alternative fuels or autonomous vessels or battery electric vessels.
Liz Allan [00:42:46]:
And so it's it's exciting exciting stuff. Yeah. So right. Okay. So you've just said battery electric vessels. Now What size are we looking at? What you the ones that are already out floating out and about on the seas, wherever, you know, What size are we talking about? Because from what you're saying, we can't go to battery electric. for a cruise ship or a container ship, Cameron, because that's just mental. Absolutely.
Derek McGlashan [00:43:15]:
You'd be towing another ship. Oh, you would.
Liz Allan [00:43:19]:
So
Derek McGlashan [00:43:21]:
no. These are these are at the smaller end of the scale. These are the sorts of vessels that would rarely leave
Liz Allan [00:43:26]:
the harbor waters. Right. Okay. So what something that's pootling around a little bit?
Derek McGlashan [00:43:32]:
Yeah. So work boats passing small passenger boats -- Okay. -- those kind of things, survey vessels. You know, the sorts of the sorts of things that, you know, harbors operate or that would operate within a harbor. Yeah. Okay.
Liz Allan [00:43:46]:
And what what kind of so are we looking at 20 are you looking at 20 25th? because I'm just thinking we've got 2050 is the date for for kind of full decarbonization, net 0, isn't it? What is that this are you what is the timeline right? for ship for the shipping industry, do you think?
Derek McGlashan [00:44:07]:
So international shipping, I think, has agreed to drop its emissions by 50%
Liz Allan [00:44:12]:
2015. Okay.
Derek McGlashan [00:44:14]:
What the UK government is seeking is for UK Domestic shipping to be carbon neutral by 2050. Of course, carbon neutral doesn't mean 0 carbon. No. There might be some offsetting in there, perhaps, which obviously is another kind of worms that we believe.
Liz Allan [00:44:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'll leave that one, hack. I've spoken to a couple of flown that one.
Derek McGlashan [00:44:39]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, well, if if you're interested in that, go and watch those go and watch those -- Yes. Yeah. -- you can plug them later. So yeah. So that so so that's the that's the thing at the moment. I suspect that timeline will change. What what I've been working with various organizations on is how they get to that that zero carbon plates. Yeah. And he here in the PLA, the Portland authority, the all of their own vessels have transitioned to HBO hydrogenated vegetable oil. So it's essentially a a majority biodiesel. And that's reduced carbon emissions and air quality emissions significantly, which is fantastic. Everyone understands that that's a transition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a solution for 5 to 10 years. until we can get on board with battery electric or hydrogen or whatever else it may be. And and that's why Portland has taken you know, quite a forward looking stance with the hydrogen highway project and getting involved in in trying to support organizations bidding for funds from the government in in relation to alternative fueled vessels that over in a horror.
Liz Allan [00:46:08]:
No. That's that's really interesting to kinda know that, like I say, something that I hadn't actually thought about until we started talking about it. And you know, it's it's kind of it's hard enough thinking of I know it's it's, you know, looking at the 2050, not I'm gonna work out all day. I'm I'm gonna be in that that year because I'm I'm I don't wanna think about it like that. But but actually moving a whole industry like the shipping industry, 2net0, this you know, it's inch by inch, isn't it, really, rather than not a step change. This is it, really? You know, you're you're doing lots of continuous improvement. -- gradual.
Derek McGlashan [00:46:51]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and most organizations don't want to be the first adopter.
Liz Allan [00:46:57]:
Why is that then? They want to be the 2nd adopter. what in case it goes wrong by the time. -- to lay out.
Derek McGlashan [00:47:03]:
Yeah.
Liz Allan [00:47:04]:
They want to lay out from what everyone else does. Yeah. There's gotta be there's gotta be somebody who puts their hand up and goes Come on. I'm here. Let me have a go. Exactly.
Derek McGlashan [00:47:14]:
And that's that's the point of this this port of money that the the UK government came up with after after COP 26 is to is to take some of the risk out of these initiatives and and hopefully hopefully back somewhere else that that drive trade for the UK and for the UK in a strong place to be an exporter of these technologies or at least an exporter of the knowledge. And so, you know, that's that's quite a
Liz Allan [00:47:47]:
it's quite a cool place to be. Isn't it? So right. Okay. I'm gonna ask you a question. Is it easy to apply for this funding? Are the parts finding it easy? because you know what it's like, and I've seen some of the stuff that on the on the electric vehicle side of things. I've seen some of the the kind of the documents that people are having are having to produce. So, you know and you're talking about in a lot of situations, people have never had to do this. So I suppose they need somebody like you, don't they? To actually kind of help them through this process and guide them and support them, etcetera.
Derek McGlashan [00:48:23]:
Yeah. So the the processes as it has to be in any grand location fairly bureaucratic because you need to be able to assess whether the project is likely to to be successful. The biggest hurdle is the timescale. So, you know, the there's give or take about 3 months the call has been open. The 3 months isn't a huge amount of time to devise a project, create your consortium, work out the costs. I mean, you'll struggle to get a grid connection and grid, you know, and and decent budget costs for you for your good connection and substations and all that kind of thing in that time scale. Never mind anything else. You need to So you need to kind of understand what your staff costs are gonna be your capital costs and and your operating costs. and whether or did you want to operate this whatever the initiative is at the point where it it happens. And All of the money has to be spent by March 2025
Liz Allan [00:49:32]:
on this latest call. Cool. That's not a long time, is it really?
Derek McGlashan [00:49:36]:
So if you're building a new if you're designing and building a new alternative fuel vessel, you need to design it find a ship builder, enable architect, the ship builder, an engine manufacturer, a fuel supply chain, and have it built by March 2025.
Liz Allan [00:49:56]:
Right. Okay. I'll just get some off the shelf stuff happening here. You know? It's not. It's just
Derek McGlashan [00:50:03]:
So
Liz Allan [00:50:05]:
pressure drives invention. Well, I I suppose. And and how long I don't know whether you know this. How long is the turnaround for you to actually put the put the grant funding, you know, funding request in
Derek McGlashan [00:50:17]:
and Brit to actually be turned around to say, yay. You've got it. It's actually quite quick. So the summer is in summer, here whether, you know, who's who's got the money and who hasn't.
Liz Allan [00:50:29]:
And then, you know, it starts in earnest in October. hang on. So you've only got kind of 8 18 months, 24 months to actually put this all in. 18 months to build, and then 3 years to operate their life. Well, god. Oh, well, look. Good luck to you. Oh my god. Well, you're gonna have your hands full then, aren't you? Really? You gotta love a challenge. I mean, gotta love a challenge, and this is definitely a challenge. Right. So how do people find you, Derek? If people are you know, if we've got people who and watching that are interesting talking to doctor Derek McLussian about sustainability in parts and shipping and and the like. How do they find you? Where's the best place?
Derek McGlashan [00:51:12]:
LinkedIn's probably the best place because, funnily enough, there aren't many middleashes. Funny that. No.
Liz Allan [00:51:20]:
But there's a few. Nobody else came up when I was searching for you anyway. You are a unique entity.
Derek McGlashan [00:51:28]:
Well, when I was an academic, your your citation becomes your initials in your name, and there was a there was an academic in Australia that had the same who often got asked questions from me and vice versa. Oh my god. And given he was a fresh biologist,
Liz Allan [00:51:42]:
I -- Bidditch, Brian. I couldn't. No. Funny now. Okay. So okay. So so LinkedIn is the best place to find you. Anywhere else are you on any other social media or is it mostly? mostly LinkedIn. Don't have time for any -- Well, no. -- ridiculous. No. Blum and egg. I'm surprised you're not yeah. You won't have any time. Right. Okay. So so best place for everybody is LinkedIn, find him on there. And and, yeah, that's how we kinda connected anyways, isn't it? So we were talking on talking on LinkedIn. But but yeah. So just to finish off, I just wanna say thank you. It's been really, really interesting to find out about this. And I can't wait to see how you're getting on with all these all of these projects. I'm hoping you've got lots plates to spin them on.
Derek McGlashan [00:52:32]:
Got various sticks. put these plates together.
Liz Allan [00:52:37]:
Oh, listen. I hope everybody else has really enjoyed listening or watching as well. So it's it's been brilliant. Thank you ever so much. And so yeah. So I'm gonna end with just saying get check him out. Check him out on LinkedIn. And thank you everybody for watching and listening, and thank you, Derek. Really, really appreciated. I'm gonna say, I shall see you next time. Thanks then. Bye.
Derek McGlashan [00:53:03]:
Bye.