Liz Allan [00:00:02]:
Welcome to Electric Evolution with Liz Allan. This podcast is about the journey to a more stainable future in order for us to be able to do our bit to achieve net 0. I'll be discussing a variety of topics with experts in their field in order to educate and increase our knowledge of clean energy, electric vehicles, and the electric vehicle infrastructure. So whether you're an individual, one make a difference at home, a small business, or a corporate, this podcast is just for you. Today, on the podcast, I have got Wouter. Tyson from Kenzo Utilities. Wouter, thank you very much for joining me. Hi, Liz. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on. So you were introduced to me through through a mutual acquaintance as in Graeme Cooper, and he's boke so highly of you. So I just you know, there was no reason why I didn't wanna just get you on straight away. So, yeah, thank thank you very much for this.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:01:01]:
Of course. Happy to be here. So so you worked
Liz Allan [00:01:04]:
you worked at National Grid for a few years, didn't you, before moving moving on to to Kenzie. tell me a little bit about your about your background, if you will.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:01:13]:
Yeah. Of course. So I'm coming from an engineering background, and that's where I No. That's what led me to National Grid. And while they're you know, my real driver was how do we address climate change at the biggest scale. that led me into the strategy side of things, really been able to try and steer the ship of of of National Grid, if if you will. And, yeah, spend various spend a bit of time working on heat decarbonization, renewables in both the well, especially the US part of the business. covering lots lots of different aspects. And was led to Kenzo largely because I really wanted to tackle what I saw as the biggest sort of climate challenge still still really to to to address, which is heating and came on to to Kendra's concepts, which blew me away. and,
Liz Allan [00:02:00]:
yeah, I was was fortunate enough to to join them. And and, actually, just looking at your looking at the Kenza website, and and I've seen Kenza around because I've been work I've been kind of around engineering and manufacturing on and off for years years. And but just looking at your website while I was doing a bit research, I was absolutely gobsmacked, so I want I want to try and introduce some of that into into what we're what we're talking about today. Can you give a little bit about a little bit of background to what Kenza does and or Ken's Kenza utilities, you've got you've got kind of, you know, this is for those who are not involved in in in kind of the the heat pump or heat decarbonization, they might actually not know very much about. So can he just give us a little bit heads up from there. Of course.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:02:45]:
Yeah. Of course. So so Kenza is a manufacturer installer and and utility provider in in the ground source heat pump space. There's 3 part the business, Kenza heat pumps, Kenza Contracting, and Kenzie Utilities, the latter of which which I head up. So heat pumps manufactures about 40, 45% of the UK's ground source heat pumps down in a factory in Cornwall. And it's, you know, what the by far, the largest UK manufacturer as well. which is which is great. The contracting part of the business was was really set up with the the idea that it's much easier to sell sort of a 100 heat pumps to one sort of party, then to sell a 100 heat pumps to a 100 parties, largely for the new build and social housing sectors. So with fuel poverty being a huge problem, heat pumps with a really low running costs. That's that's a great sort of application for the social housing sector in Ken Kenza contract. thing comes in there and will design an end to end manage the the installation of both the ground array. So the network that feeds the the ground seat pumps, which can come on to in just a sec. And then the actual heat pumps themselves. So largely working with the new build, social housing, and non domestic sectors today. And then utilities, last lastly. So that's the part that I I I head up, and it's really come from addressing the really big challenges to Groundsource heat pump adoption. So I think most people in sort of the heat pump space will know that there's lots of benefits to ground source heat pumps. So let's take a couple of them. They're cheaper to run because they get their source energy from deep underground. and stored solar energy, which means they are generally cheaper to run. They're quieter. They don't have a sort of a a fan that's that's that's worrying. which can which can cause disturbance. They're, you know, lower maintenance and longer life because they've sat inside away from the elements. You don't have the visual impact, and you can you can get cooling with them as well because you've got a network at roughly 10 degrees that you can use in the summer for cooling. So most yeah. Which the most most people are sort of somewhat familiar that that ground source is, you know, is the better tech technology. But it's more expensive and more disruptive because as opposed to a box that you place outside that just takes the air in create heat from it and warms your house with it. You're talking about pipes that are going up to three hundred meters deep. Is that how deep it is? -- energy. They can do it. It depends on it depends on the heat heat load of the property, but, yeah, we've drilled up to up to 300 meters before. sometimes you go to a 100 or less. Sometimes it's 300. It's it varies, but the UK's got some terrific drillers and you know, real rich history with with geology that, you know, meet it means there's a lot of expertise here that the UK has to lean on. Yeah. Again, homegrown sort of industry in that sense. And, effectively, yeah, the the but so so the the challenges are, like, cost and disruption from all of that stuff that's outside the house. And we've gone well with your boiler today, you've got a white box in your house. and but you don't own the gas pipes in your garden. Right? That's there's a utility, Caden Gas or whoever that owns those pipes. And you through your bill, or paying a standing charge to access access that network. We effectively go and replicate that. So we'll take Wolf fund own, maintain, all of that all of those sort of bore holes that's that that are in that are outside your house, generally in the streets or the pavement. and you just get a white box, plug it in, pay your electricity bill to run your heat pump, just like you pay your gas bill to run your gas boiler today. And you'll pay a standing charge to the utility network to to, yeah, run run feed feed your heat pump. And, effectively, now you've you've taken those 2 barriers of upfront cost and disruption and just remove them. because it's now a utility that's doing doing that for you. So it's a simple sort of business model thing, but we we think that can transition this from being sort of a a technology that's, you know, really, really well suited to the new build social housing, non domestic, and and and sort of individual house space to, you know, millions and millions of households across the UK.
Liz Allan [00:07:09]:
My god. That's just yeah. It is it is totally totally totally mind blowing. Do you wanna just talk a little bit about about Stevians, about your heat the streets?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:07:20]:
Oh, certainly.
Liz Allan [00:07:21]:
because that had been It's very interesting when we're talking beforehand, weren't we?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:07:26]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So so so this this concept this utility concept that I was sort of talking about where there's a utility putting the network in the road and that you get a white box plug into this network when you're ready. meaning that you've got the biggest barriers to grounds for seat pumps removed. We've gone and demonstrated that in Cidian. So as opposed to talking about it, we've gone and done it. And there's it's particularly in in in in the sort of power of custodians in Cornwall. We have take in sort of parts of the village and puts effectively in one part that's sort of a ring road, but the network all in that whole ring road. People again, get their get their heat pump and plug it in. We're we've not put heat pumps into every single property there. But when people are ready, say, when their oil boiler fails or some people have just filled their oil tank for the from from the winter or or have other forms of heating and they're not quite ready to switch, Whenever they're ready, they then just get this box, which is roughly the size of January, anywhere between a microwave and a dishwasher. It's quite a, you know, small thing not not too dissimilar to your boiler. Plug in to the network that's there, and they've got the greenest, cheapest cleanest form of heat. that's what we've done there in CitiANS, and it's, yeah, with support from the the European Regional Development Fund. We've actually just last week connected the world's first heat pump into a in row utility network for ground source. And it was a fantastic story of the resident there who's been struggling with with their oil heating, and they were they're ecstatic about it. It was actually really nice to see just how how much of an impact it had on on people's lives. And, yeah, we we hope to bring that to to the masses. So will that so you're talking about people who are getting their They've currently got oil tanks for their heating, and I've got a friend who's got exact exactly that. She's kind of out in the sticks kind of
Liz Allan [00:09:24]:
up in in Bedford. and and kinda, again, actually, no. Booking, I'm sure, get it right this. So would that how I suppose my thinking is, why is why are they having to use oil tanks rather than why wouldn't they have actually had gas pumps in in in originally. And and actually, can you so can you do that? Can you take it to a place where it hasn't already got the network in there. It hasn't got the infrastructure in there.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:09:55]:
For sure. So so Stidion's was was an off gas off gas sort of village -- And how did it work? the whole village was, so they were all on oil or storage heating. So so whilst we've demonstrated it here because we're you know, oil is is even more carbon emitting than than gas. We we we wanted to tackle that first. Yes. It's also very close to our factory. So it's it's it's great for or the r and d we're doing to be close to the to the site and to have a real relationship with the the people there. But where we so we we see this as a blueprint for not just for rural communities, but especially for terraced streets and for flats. So if you kind of if think about sort of, you know, UK heat decarbonization, there's roughly 28,000,000
Liz Allan [00:10:45]:
28,000,000
Wouter Thijjssen [00:10:46]:
homes that we need to decarbonize. We've got 27 years. So that's more than a 1,000,000 a year, which is 20,000 a week. Oh. You know? Right right right now where the UK heat pump market is doing roughly 40 to 50000 a year. So in what what we need to do every what we're doing now in a year, we need to start doing every 2 to 3 weeks. to get to net 0. So it's a massive ramp up. So you you need you need a scale based solution. So we kinda go, okay. There's no silver bullet. What what what we're doing here in with with with our form of, you know, utility based ground source heat pumps, which you call network heat pumps. That's not the silver bullet. There's there's a there's a range, and there there isn't an energy transition any silver just, like, with transport or with with electricity. So you but you start with okay. Start with the density sensors. So middle of London, middle of Birmingham, middle of Manchester, Bristol, etcetera. You go, well, that there's so much heat density there. traditional district heating, so the sort of the the types that EON and VatinFol, etcetera will deploy. That's probably the what probably the superior solution there. You then move all the way out to sort of semi detached and detached houses where you've got the space. You probably want an individual sort of air source or ground source heat pump. for for that. But we've just skipped from Center of London to sort of spaced out houses that you might have more in the countryside. What we're missing is terrace Streets, terrace housing, and flats. And those are, you know, not quite dense enough for district heating. but probably probably a little too dense to have, you know, your individual air source or ground source heat pump in a lot of cases. So that there is where we go, well, if they can't have disk heating and they can't have individual heat pumps, what's the the solution they they can get. How can they decarbonize heat? This is we're talking here about 8,000,000 Terra Streets and sort of 5, 6,000,000 flats. That's half the housing stock. We go, well, what they have today is the gas network. So they've got infrastructure in the street -- Yeah. -- a white box in their house that plugs into that infrastructure. with the solution that we've shown in Stevian's, we can just replicate that -- Mhmm. -- to sync the boreholes in the roads in the public roads, link them together, then whenever when anyone whenever people are ready, you get your white box, whether it's from Kenzo or from from from DB or or or whoever else. You plug it into that network, and you've got a decarbonized solution for you. So while whilst we've demonstrated it in the rural space, we really think the, you know,
Liz Allan [00:13:28]:
semi dense terrace streets and flats, this is sort of the perfect solution for that. And you were saying kind of the size of our house before weren't you kind of we'd probably need something that was that was a a a little a little bit bigger, but it was it's still we're not talking about an outdoor pump power. We were talking about an indoor indoor pump.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:13:47]:
Exactly. And it's sort of for slightly larger house, you probably have something that's more like a dishwasher sized unit. that could sit in an errand covered or get in in the kitchen or wherever wherever you have the space. it's generally better to keep them inside away from the elements. They'll they'll last longer, less maintenance. But, yeah, we have put it in outside enclosures where where that's not not possible. It's it's a it's a common thing that gets said is all there's not enough space for heat pumps inside houses where you can look look for it outside if if need be. We've we've not really found any houses where heat pumps aren't aren't suitable,
Liz Allan [00:14:25]:
which runs count some of the claims that that that get talked about, particularly in in the hydrogen space. I was gonna say because, like I say, I I said to you before, didn't I? The the the person that we were talking to about heat pump was specifically not talk about anything to do with indoors. we're talking about an outdoor heat pump, and that's where we fell into kinda like this issue with the the kind of the width down the side of our house which wasn't wasn't kind of wide enough and and able to get enough air coming through air. So that kind of put it put a little bit of a the mockers on us, you know, to me trying to go that way.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:15:03]:
Yeah. I mean, that that's a there's probably some planning reform needed. I think there's, you know, certainly a role for for our seat pumps in sort of more dense areas and, you know, heat pumps needs air assist heat pumps needs to get quieter to and and to limit the noise impacts. But yeah, that that is a a common problem just not having the space or wanting to have a a box in your garden whilst, you know, in the back garden where where you'll be either sleeping above with your window open or set outside in the summer. So, yeah, we think there's probably more reform needed. We don't think we're we're not purest about ground source. We think you you need you need many millions more air source heat pumps. You need many more millions ground source heat pumps.
Liz Allan [00:15:50]:
Yeah. So if if we if so there's a couple of couple of questions. So one of one of them is -- the whole the whole reason for them. And I know you explained it to me, but it'd be good to kind of go go over this as well. The whole reason or the way that you run an air source heat pump is very different, isn't it, to kind of, like, the way that you'd run your boiler in the fact that you have to run an an f air source heat pump constantly?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:16:21]:
Yeah. More more constantly or or an anagram source pump for that matter, and that's 2. Think I mean, the the general aspect is that boilers are massively oversized, say, a house that needs 5, 6 kilowatts of heat might have a 25, 30 kilowatt powered boiler. So massively oversized and really when you're running your boiler for, you know, 15 minutes and then then it's off, and then you leave it for a few hours and you turn it on again, it's it's like kinda like driving on the motorway at 200 miles an hour and then at 10 miles an hour, then 200 miles an hour, 10 miles an hour. With the heat pump, you just go and the whole way at a much more efficient, say, 60, seventy miles an hour. You'll get to the same place at the same time, i e, your home will be warm, but you'll do that in a much more efficient way And, generally, heat pumps like to operate at a lower flow temperature. So 35, 45 degrees as opposed to you know, the much higher temperatures that boilers are typically set to. Even if you have a boiler, you want to be running at a lower flow temperature because you'll save money on your bills. but heat pumps generally, you'll get a much higher coefficient of performance by running it at a lower flow temperature. So, yeah, your heat pumps, you do want a a bit more of an an efficient constant stream of heat as opposed sort of the the on off on off that that we're used to with boilers. It's a little bit of a behavior change aspect that's that's that's needed with with consumers. One of the most common technical calls we do get is people will touch their radiator and not immediately go out. i e. It's at 45 or 50 degrees, and I'll go my heat pump's not working. My hand's not burning. And that's the the that's a common call we get, and we you know, 9 times out of 10 or 10 times out of 10, really, the heat pump's working fine, but people are just not used to the the difference of experience. So that that's yeah. And the the government's been doing a a good campaign on about reducing flow temperature. So that's that's a that's one of the behavioral aspects that's that's different, but it's the way we frame it is, look, what what you're used to is a bit more of a wasteful way of doing things is a a better, more efficient way. So so as the not to frame it as, look, if you're taking a a step back and you're using quality, you're actually doing things more efficiently and better.
Liz Allan [00:18:44]:
So having that lower flow temperature Does that does that have an overall effect on the temperature in the house? Say, for example, you know, kind of before Christmas, we had that minus period of, like, minus 6. So so would it would it actually affect affect the heat of the house at all? because it's kind of you know, it's running at a cool cool if it's running if it's keep if if it's not heating the the radiators or it's gonna be more efficient, but it's It's on would that mean the radiators would be on all the time, but they'd be on a kind of a lower they'd be on lower so the house would stay at a constant heat. Is that what it'd be?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:19:24]:
pretty much, yeah, you're you're getting the same units of heat into the the house just at a a lower temperature, a lower Delta. So, yeah, it's but, you know, how the the some of the biggest heat pump deployments in in Europe are in countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, where it gets much, much colder than here and, you know, homes there. homes at our grounds that are more efficient, so we'll suffer less heat leakage out of it. But, you know, they work just fine there. I think it's it's it's a commonly cited myth that heat pumps don't work when it's cold or that heat pumps don't work in all houses. We're yet to find a house that doesn't work for for heat pump. But then,
Liz Allan [00:20:09]:
like you just said, the word myth, that's what people listen to. It's like, oh, there's a lot of negativity about kind of decarbonization in in general, isn't there? Because of the fact that we're we're gonna be forced or we are being forced to change. the the the way that we're actually doing stuff, and people don't like change, do they? So --
Wouter Thijjssen [00:20:29]:
Yeah. There's there's there's granted a lot of fear about about change, and there's lots of negative headlines about how that change will be a worse form of heat. I think, actually, this is a a change for the better. It's more efficient, better for the planet with with our sort of form you get cooling with your heat source as well. So it's an upgrade there. It's generally viewed as a more comfortable form of heat to have you know, keep trickling into your house constantly as opposed to ramping on, ramping off. So, actually, for for people that the the outcome is a is a better form of heat. Plus the fact that you're not gonna have a toxic explosive fuel in your house. I mean, if if we were to be on heat pumps now, right, and people would be talking about bringing gas in, you'd be, like, crazy. You know, we're not gonna go from what we have to, you know, and expose the fuel, but that that's just what we're used to, and that's that's what's normal. So you're actually getting a much safer cheaper to run kind of fuel in your in your property, which which makes a little sense. And we were talking as well, weren't we before we started recording about about radiators
Liz Allan [00:21:28]:
you know, when we're, you know, kind of and and sort of like, how how you deal with you get you get you get your new heat pump, but then you maybe have to have a look at the radiators that if you just explain because I can't explain it the way you said it.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:21:44]:
Yeah. I mean, there's there's instances where a radiator or 2 might need to be replaced. There's plenty of instances we go into property and do not need to be replaced. It's generally because that you're gonna operate at a lower flow temperature. You want a larger surface area to get the heat into the room. where we do have to upgrade it that's generally you know, it's we're not talking about radiator that's, you know, this big, and then we're doubling the size of it. it's generally 20% thicker than than what it was before. So it's really hardly noticeable at all. the change that's off often talked about is, like, oh, we're gonna have to rip out all your radiates, all your pipework. You can them out of your house for weeks. all of these cases, we do this in sitcheap with people remaining in the in the in the dwellings. And, yeah, the outcome is you hardly see the difference in in your radiator quite often. So it's again, one of these where particularly where there's competing interest for whether heat pumps are adopted or not. That's often thrown as as a as as effectively a myth in in how disruptive and how impactful that'll be.
Liz Allan [00:22:50]:
Yeah. Okay. And you were talking about the fact that you can use you can use hit you know, the number of Countries like like you said, Norway, Sweden, Finland that are that are obviously, you know, kind of more more efficient housing. Do we need to kind of up the amount of insulation that you have in a house in order to kind of, you know, to man manage that and manage the Make sure you don't get the heat loss because the thing that we notice in our house specifically is in the winter, you know, we just seem to kind of eek. You know, it just disappears in certain parts of the house. Some parts of the okay. course, it's my son's room, which is fine. It's always nice and warm in there. But in our bedroom, I'm like, you know, I'm freezing. It's kinda you know, so so do you is it really imperative for you to actually look at that level of in upping your level of installation then?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:23:47]:
For sure. I mean, the there there's mass sort of installation required and then sort of the UK UK housing stock basic things like cavity wall insulation, lost insulation, air tightness, things like that that just, you know, will pay off within a year or 2. I think the the purest view that that offers something that gets espoused, you need we need every home in the UK to be, you know, external wall insulation, floor insulation, almost to a passive house standard. That we we'd probably take a slightly different view on, which which sort of that that sort of the fabric first few, you address the fabric, and then you think about the the heating source. Where where we probably land is, well, what do we want to do? We want to decarbonize, so lower carbon. at the lowest cost so people save save the biggest amount on their bills. Yes. With external wall insulation, it sometimes will There'll be instances where where it makes little sense. There's other instances where you're paying 20 k or so for a 20% reduction in heat demands, therefore, 20% reduction in carbon and and in bills. Whereas the heat pump, you put it in, you're seeing an 80% reduction in in carbon, and you'll start to see a bill saving as as well. So in in some senses, we we think yes, installation is needed, but to a degree that's sensible, not going all in on every single form of installation you can do to make everything a passive house and then about the heating. There's probably better bang for your buck and carbon emission in a little bit of insulation where it's needed. and then then your heat pump, whether it's air source or ground source in in in both cases. And and if you stay on gas, those are also sensible installation measures to do do anyway. So there's no regrets, but then we think we probably disagree slightly with the fabric first view and you wanna start bringing in heating a little bit earlier on. Yeah. because
Liz Allan [00:25:48]:
it's great. Like you're saying about you were talking about terrace houses earlier on, weren't you, you know, with with it. I don't know what the kind of housing situation now is out in Sweden and Finland and places like that. But, you know, there's there's so so many terraces. You can't control. The, you know, the age of some of the houses is is quite old, isn't it? So -- Oh, yeah. -- it it's it's not always that easy to kind of address the fabric of the house, especially if you're attached to another 5 or 6, you know, kind of along along that terrace, is it, really? So so I understand -- Absolutely. -- can do what you can internally, but You know, if you can't manage you can't manage everything, can you? Exactly. Yeah. So you need you need a combination. Yeah. So do you know what you brought me to? You were talking about costs as well, and I was just thinking about so So what would the obviously, there's a massive cost comparison when you're talking about decarbonization compare you know, air source ground source versus versus gas. But is this is this something that is affordable for everybody at the moment. Or, you know, I know what you're talking about with regards to Stidians and kind of the network there. But say for for somebody like myself, you know, we would we need to kind of how how do you go about get getting the the heat point pump sorted through yourselves. I mean, obviously, you've got a net I'm assuming you've got a network of contract you've got your contracts depart you know, organization and haven't you. But how how does how does somebody like me go and find a heat pump, a Kenzer heat pump that is suitable for our house.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:27:27]:
Got it. So the I guess the couple of things to unpick. I guess, the first is just the general UK view on heating. Sorry. Heat pumps particularly is the UK, I mean, it it's an unfortunate it's not a a great stat to to help, but they're sort of near the bottom of the league table in Europe and heat pump production at the moment. you know, saying that sort of 40, 50,000 heat pumps a year. We're talking about 600,000 by 2028 as a target. tough target. It's a 50 next growth of what we've got got today, which is huge. France is getting close to that this year. go. So there's a you know, lots of lots of reasons for why different context, things like that. But the main thing is is that right now the when you when you are to get a heat pump, you will switch from paying your gas bill to an electricity bill. Electricity currently costs about 3.4 times more than gas per unit, which which means that, you know, you get a ground source heat pump with the COP of 44 or more. You will be seeing a bill saving. If your air source heat pumps correctly installed, you should also see see a sort of a a smaller bill saving, but probably still a bill saving as well. Whereas in sort of, for example, my home country in the Netherlands or Italy, Sweden, places like that, that that that ratio is between 1.52. So you go and get yourself a heat pump and switch off gas. You're saving 100100 of of pounds if not not not even close to a 1000. And in those countries, it's really hard to get a heat pump now because they are flying off shelves and they're constrained by other things like supply or or in solar capacity the UK, we we do need to, you know, grow the installer capacity. But the the the bigger thing holding it back is is the fact that there's a a bunch of levies and taxes on electricity. 12% of the electric bill is levies where only 3% of the gas bill is that we need to shift that shift these sort of taxes on on that. So it's probably the dirtier fuel or onto general taxation or other other means and bring that spark gap to call that ratio of electricity gas down, and that will mean that you're you're gonna be saving 100 and 100 of pounds to to get onto your heat pump, and that will make it a a a much more economic sort of proposition. it's it's sort of a and then I think for particularly for our utility scale solution, we think you probably need to look at what's called heat zoning. So right now, the UK government is putting through legislation for heat network zoning. which is effectively where you divide where local authorities are receiving powers to designate certain zones as that's right for a heat network. Typically, central Bristol, central London, those kind of places. we think you probably wanna do that for the entire local authority, not just that's a heat network, that's something else, but that's a heat network. That's better for for air source heat pumps. That's better for network heat pumps. This sort of utility scale solution that we're talking about. And that then means that there's a street that's being designated as the zone for network heat pumps. That then gives us confidence to come and put the network in. so that whenever those people's boilers break or they move house or they're just ready to transition, they get a a heat pump, whether it's from Ken's or from from any other ground source manufacturer. plug it in. That's how we think you you you you, a, decarbonize the the the country at scale and and and do that yeah, in in a in a sort of phase phase manner. We think, like I said, 20,000 heat tons per week. We need to do that in a in a street by street manner. and that that's how we would roll out this this sort of network. We think that will be subsidy free competitive with gas by 2028. So there's some things that need to happen such as electricity levies shifting onto other other places where it's the gas bill or somewhere else. And and probably zoning introduced and probably certainty that we do have a long stop date. Just like EVs have that date for when you can't get a new petrol or diesel car. we need that same thing for for heating as well for for boilers. Do start to do some of those things. And by 2028, we're confident we can do this subsidy free for for streets at a time. Right now, it's yeah. We're we're doing this with some grant support, so in place like studying. and we're rolling it out in sectors where it's commercial, particularly new build. because new build from 2025 cannot put fossil fuel 2024 in Scotland. fossil fuel heating systems in. So there again, it's either an air source or ground source heat pump. And if we fund the infrastructure, the cheapest thing for a new builder is a groundswissip pump, which, again, counterintuitive to to what the the normal narrative is. So that's sectors where it works today and also the social housing and non domestic sectors. But there's sort of mass private rollout as in copy paste what we did in CitiAMS to Terra Streets And Flats. That's still a couple of years away from being sort of subsidy free compared to gas. largely because of a few policy tweaks that that we think are needed in tandem with us as industry bringing the cost down with some of the the the innovations we're doing to higher COP heat pumps, lower cost manufacturing, all that kind of stuff. So we really think a couple of tweaks some caustic lines in the industry, and this is, you know, gonna gonna be flying the street by streets -- Yeah. -- from 2028. That'd be that'd be brilliant. So are you
Liz Allan [00:33:20]:
Are you selling direct into the local you're wanting to go get into the local authorities? So is there a way for, like I say, for somebody like myself to come to Kenzza to get to get a heat, you know, an aerosol's heat pump that would work that's not on that that's that's not networks currently.
Wouter Thijjssen [00:33:40]:
Yeah. So so so Kemza only supplies supplies ground source. But, yeah, you through through your installer plumber, good good for an air source? Or with ground source, yes. I mean, Kenzie, we're still doing sort of individual house, and that's been very much the bread and butter of the business. Whilst we're seeing huge growth rates at the moment, you know, the company's been around since sort of the late nineties. And the bread and butter has really been individual houses that we we come in design, puts the infrastructure in in in the garden and for the heat pump in. So that's also very much our bread and butter, but we and that will continue to be be really important, and it and it, you know, it's it it is it is today. But where we sort of really see a huge take off in in growth is that mass retrofit that that the UK needs to to achieve it it's net zero target. You don't get to net zero without decarbonizing heating, and you need scale street by street solutions -- Yeah. -- to do so. Yeah. It's
Liz Allan [00:34:39]:
When when do you see right. Okay. So I know you just kinda said it, but how many years? What what what is What is the idea? We know we know what we've got we've got a hard stop, haven't we? We know when we've got this hard stop. But what? time scale do you see this? What what would your ideal situation solution be for this? You know, if the government did this, this, this, and this, and we could kinda start rolling it out by x. What what are your thoughts on time scales?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:35:11]:
So I think I mean, I think that 2028 is probably a realistic time line for that. We'd love to start sooner. I think but there's there's effectively, you know, 33 sort of key asks from government, shift levies from electricity to to other forms, introduce heat zoning, and introduce a sort of a, you know, a a fixed sort of deadline for when new gas boilers cannot be installed anymore. Combination of those those three things plus us you know, c and c and through some of our r and d projects. You know, 2028, we we start to see streets going one at a time, kinda like how in the sixties. So Burton upon Trent was the first town in the UK to go from town's gas. to what's called high speed gas or natural gas at the time, and that was then rolled out region by region. We see Stivian as the first sort of demonstrator just like bricks upon Trent. Yeah. But then from 2028, we really start going area by area to to decarbonize it. So So that that's that's sort of the where where we see this. We think, you know, there's others in in the heat pump space doing a great job like octopus, for example, targeting some of the lower hanging fruit for houses with with air source heat pumps. There's, you know, there's a need for many more heat pumps across the the spectrum. So, yeah, there's great great things being done done across the industry. not just Oktais, but also many other very, very competent installers that are doing high quality installs and improving the reputation of heat pumps. across, and people like Nathan Gambling are doing a great great job of bringing that sort of need for quality to to the market. So Lots lots of things happening, but we think, yeah, 2028 onwards is when we think, particularly, our street by street network heat pump solution, like in stadiums -- Yeah. -- goes to the masses.
Liz Allan [00:37:11]:
Sounds good. What what site so how many how many people I and we talked about this. So I went to Stideons when oh my god. I must have been 10 or 11 on a on a on a family holiday. So I've actually stayed in Stidians, which is kind of slightly weird. But But I I don't know. How many people actually live in stadiums? because it's not it's not a massive village. Is it or town?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:37:34]:
No. It's it's a it's a few 100. Yeah. I have to to check the exact number. But but, yeah, it's But it's we see it as, you know, it's it's it's it's been doing fantastic working with the residents there. They've been been very supportive of you know, we're we're learning by doing, and they've been very understanding and and and supportive. And, yeah, we have to do them proud and
Liz Allan [00:37:58]:
showing that what we've learned there goes and helps millions of billions of homes get lower bills and lower carbon emissions -- Yeah. -- in the years to come. It's a brilliant It's a brilliant pilot actually to, you know, like you say, learn by doing. That's that's the that's the biggest the biggest thing that you need to do, and and and I and I wish you the best to look because because it just seems that they're kind of the most sensible route to do, you know, to to kind of to choose in my mind, you know, that we've we've already got networks out there that are doing the similar thing, but just with a different few you know, with fossil fuel just like you say, replicate the way that it's done, why wouldn't you?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:38:38]:
Yeah. It's it's you know, transitions are tricky and scary. The more we can do to say, look, what you're familiar with with gas in terms of the network that you that somebody else looks after, you've got a white box that generates heat. You know, the the better helps helps with the familiarity. There's there's that difference in actually, it's more efficient, and it's, you know, 4 to 5 times more efficient than your boiler, and it doesn't need to ramp up, ramp down. You'll keep your home a nice steady steady temperature without sort of the the dips that you'll that you're used to. So, yeah, familiarity is is is is certainly certainly important to people. to help through the transition. So 2028,
Liz Allan [00:39:19]:
let's let's see let's see it happen. So so just to finish up with then, what what contact details can you give people? So, you know, if you've got variety of people who are interested in actually having a look because your website is fabulous. I was kind of my eyesily popped out of my head when I was looking at it thinking, wow. This is really good. So so do you wanna give your your kind of your contact these at your web website address?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:39:45]:
Yeah. Sure. So on on it's kensautilities.com. and get to contact, I mean, free to to add me on LinkedIn. I'm sure we can include it in the in the show notes. Or yeah, info at kensutilities.com if you wanna reach us that way. Love to love to talk about yeah. how we can you know, any questions people have or thoughts, ideas where, you know, we're building a a business model here that we think will decarbonize millions of homes. So,
Liz Allan [00:40:15]:
you know, keen to keen to hear other people's ideas and thoughts. And you're also so I'm just peeking at the bottom of your web site where it says so you've got you you're you're on Twitter as well. Is that is that Kenzie Utilities?
Wouter Thijjssen [00:40:27]:
I believe so. Yes. Twitter and LinkedIn. We're we're active there. We're
Liz Allan [00:40:31]:
yeah. And it even looks like you have and I've not checked this one out. It even looks like, yes. You've got a YouTube channel as well, which is Tensor Heat pumps, the got the one that's on here anyway. So so, yes, that -- Yeah. There's lots of lots of great explainers there about how heat pump work, how everything works. It's sort of like the the perfect intro to to to the technology there. It's
Wouter Thijjssen [00:40:51]:
got one of our cofounders who's just phenomenal, put a camera in front of him, talk for 10 minutes, and it can explain everything in, like, like like you wish a teacher would. So
Liz Allan [00:41:02]:
yeah. And that's and that's what we need, isn't it? We need people to be able to actually explain, like, you have been doing kinda, you know, at the right level to help people to understand and it just and and and, you know, people might not like the word education, but it is it is about caters and and actually changing our behavior. So so yeah. But but listen. Thank you. Thank you ever so much. It's been amazing talking to you, and And I'm I'm really looking forward to this this happening. So when I see the Kenzie Utilities ban in in Redding where I live, I'll be really, I'll be adamant. I'll be I'll be over the moon and excited. So so thank you ever so much for your time, Walter. I really appreciate it. Terrific. Thank you for having me. It's been been great to for you to be here, Liz. Thank you. And listen and to everybody else, thank you for listening and watching, and I shall see you all next time. Bye bye then. Bye. Thanks for listening to Electric Evolution with Liz Allen. If you want to find out more about Full Circle continuous improvement, please visit Tsar www.fullcircleci.co.uk. Don't forget to keep listening for more episodes coming up really soon.