Liz Allan [00:00:02]:
Welcome to Electric Evolution with Liz Allan. This podcast is about the journey to a more sustainable future in order for us to be able to do our bit to achieve net zero. I'll be discussing a variety of topics with experts in their field in order to educate and increase our knowledge of clean energy, electric vehicles, and the electric vehicle infrastructure. So whether you're an individual who wants to make a difference at home, a small business, or a corporate, this podcast is just for you. Today on the podcast, I've actually got Andy Eastlake, and he is the chief executive of XEMO Partnership. So, Andy, thank you ever so much for joining me. We've really we've spoken once before, haven't we? It's lovely to see you.
Andy Eastlake [00:00:45]:
Plea pleasure to be here. Now it's really good to speak to you. I've I've seen quite a number of the podcasts so far, so you've had some great people on recently.
Liz Allan [00:00:52]:
I'm just the number of people that I've had on that it's just it's blown my mind. The amount of knowledge, the things that I'm learning, I have to keep listening back to my own podcast episodes to go. And what did that person say? So it is just amazing. It's brilliant.
Andy Eastlake [00:01:07]:
Yeah. There's oh, it's just some real really good nuggets in there. I I listened, as I say, Sam Clark, I thought was great, and and Graham the other day, he's, he's always brilliant.
Liz Allan [00:01:15]:
Oh, they so I'm I'm expecting fantastic things from today.
Andy Eastlake [00:01:21]:
I'll I'll do my best.
Liz Allan [00:01:22]:
Oh, I'm sure I'm I know we've already talked, so I already know you're gonna be fab fabulous. Right. So can you give me a little bit of background to to how you got into your role at Ximo? What what is what's kind of your background before Ximo, and what what did you get, you know, what did you do to get to where you are now?
Andy Eastlake [00:01:41]:
Yeah. Well, I I guess it's, I'm I'm a a car guy by nature. So I I'm in an engineering sort of brain, and that took me into engineering as a degree. And I actually joined Vauxhall Motors, in the early eighties, as part of a graduate sort of sponsored degree process. So I went straight into the automotive industry. I had 2 options when I was training at school for sponsorship. 1 was small arms, you know, rifles and things, and the other one was Vauxhall. And I preferred cars to to to killing people.
Andy Eastlake [00:02:12]:
So Killing people. Cars it was. And, so I I spent my my formative years at Vauxhall's. And I think I joined at what I think was a really, really exciting time in the automotive industry. We're going through another one at the Government, without a doubt, but I do think it's that that really formed my sort of approach and my persona. And it was really when, emissions testing so I joined and I went to to I actually worked for the bulk of my career at Millbrook Proving Ground at the test track, now UTAC, of course. But I joined them. I I think I went there first time in the mid it must have been 85, 86.
Andy Eastlake [00:02:48]:
And it was right at the time when we were changing from carburetors to electronic fuel injection. So we were seeing how sort of control of that fuel into engines suddenly opened up all sorts of opportunities and made it, you know, a whole a whole raft better in terms of, in terms of what you could do. And that, you know, one of the nuggets that I sort of came away from that is that nothing's perfect, but everything can be better. And and I think that's kind of how I've tried to to think about it. And the other key thing that that taught me was if you can't measure it, you probably can't improve it. So my background wasn't so much on developing the CARs and the injection. It was about measuring it and helping those people that knew what they were doing see what the effect of their changes were. So my whole activity was developing emissions measurement.
Andy Eastlake [00:03:42]:
So I started out, we were only looking at hydrocarbons and CO. Late '80s, we introduced NOx measurement. 'eighty eight, I think, particulates came into late eighties. We started measuring particulates from cars and things, and that was what got me going. And and I started to try and push the boundaries or or use whatever I could find. So we brought some equipment over from the States and started looking at things like aldehydes and and things like that from Vehicles, so non regulated emissions. I started doing things with particle sizing. So you'll have, you know, come across, you know, pn2.5 and those things.
Andy Eastlake [00:04:19]:
So back in the early nineties, we were measuring particle size and formation, one of the only places in the UK that was doing that. So that it was that passion about, right, can I can I measure things better? Can I therefore inform people? And how do we make that whole sort of area go forward? And that's really I think, ultimately, that took me to where I am now, in that policy is driven, should be driven, by some really good evidence, really good measurement, really good sort of information. And it was from that sort of really engineering, fundamental car space for how do we how do we make a difference with what we can now do. And that's really where I mean, I I actually took on the role of sort of the representative for General Motors at the Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership when it formed. So that was low CVP, which was the precursor to ZEMO. We changed our name in 2021, I think it was. So, yeah, a year a year or 2 ago from low CVP. But I actually sort of was part of the formation of low CVP back in 2,002, 2003.
Andy Eastlake [00:05:26]:
And that again was sort of, you know, that interface with Government, that the role of policy, the role of government together with the benefits of engineering and the, you know, the auto the skilled automotive engineers, that is a sort of harmonious combination. And then the person that is always forgotten and the one that one of the things I like about Zemo is come back to the user. It it ultimately you know, it doesn't matter what we make, you know, how we measure it, or what the policy makers say. If you can't sell it and the user isn't engaged, you've kind of got it wrong. So Yeah. That was why you ended up with this sort of melee, I would say, almost of a policy engineering consumer information, which is really interesting space to to to be part of.
Liz Allan [00:06:11]:
I was gonna say, actually, in continuous improvement, we call that the voice of the customer.
Andy Eastlake [00:06:16]:
Yeah.
Liz Allan [00:06:17]:
Yeah. Which is really, really important, isn't it? Actually, understanding what your customer wants, what the voice of the customer actually is. What because like you say, there's no point if you don't understand what they're saying to you.
Andy Eastlake [00:06:31]:
Well, I think it comes back to that point about, you know, nothing's perfect, but everything could be better. But different people have a different perspective on what better means. You know? Does that mean more range? Does it mean a lighter weight vehicle? Does it mean lower emissions? Does it mean cheaper? You know, everybody's perspective of better is different, and you kind of need all of them because ultimately everything is going to be a bit of a compromise because nothing's perfect. So it's about sort of, yeah, squaring that Vehicle of different perspectives and and trying to to really, really bring it into, you know, an optimum or as optimum as you can get solution.
Liz Allan [00:07:08]:
So if we're looking at kind of Ximo and and what you what you do with regards to to the how do you you you work hand in hand with a lot of the government policy, don't you? So how is it how is it evolving? How is
Andy Eastlake [00:07:21]:
it going? So Ximo was set up originally, as I say, 20 years ago, and it was originally fully funded by government. And it was, and it was a great example of joined up government. We had treasury, environment, transport, business, all at the table saying we want this low carbon vehicle partnership and this low carbon agenda on vehicles to be a success for the environment, a success for the the the customers, success for the industry in the in the UK. And so, you know, there was a real coalition of the willing trying to move in the same direction, which was great. And I think that's what we've retained. And and, you know, climate change, which is the ultimately the because, I mean, we predate the Climate Change Act, in fact. And that's obviously one of the the key pieces of legislation that we were sort of working towards. And that was what drove us to the the ZMO Charge.
Andy Eastlake [00:08:15]:
You know, net zero as a change from being you know, we've got to get down to an 80% reduction in in in Carbon, in 2050. That net zero agenda that Theresa May brought in in 2019 said actually we've got to get down to net zero. Right, low is no longer enough, so actually low carbon vehicle partnership isn't the right thing to be calling ourselves. Let's move on and move on to a sort of 0 focused. So that was kind of the backdrop to that. But everybody around our table is part of trying to get to net zero. They might disagree on how you get there and how quickly you get there, but they all have that common sort of thread and and that's what I think is is really useful. So now, in well, I points, officially took over the organization back in 2012, and that was right at the time when we were moving from fully funded by government to being a sort of part membership funded, part project funded, but still government supported.
Andy Eastlake [00:09:16]:
So now we get a grant from the DFT. The decarbonization team within the Department of Transport support us with an annual grant. We have a structure of membership fees, so we've got about 250 member companies who pay a fee. Hopefully we keep that reasonably affordable. And then there's a number of projects that we get sort of supported to do. We're not going after consultancy. I think that's really important. A lot of our members are some of the big consultancy organisations, so we're not competing with them, but we're certainly trying to help in the public funding space.
Andy Eastlake [00:09:52]:
I'm doing work for Transport Scotland at the moment on air quality retrofits, you know, retrofit systems for vehicles. We're doing other work for the Government Transport at the moment about 0 emission ancillary units. So if you think about the the donkey engines that you have on a refrigerated truck UK the trailer, at the Government, they're out of scope of all of our 0 emission vehicles. So you've got you've got a Euro 6 truck pulling this potentially very dirty trailer. So we're doing some research into how do we clean those UK, how do we take those to to net 0, as well as the truck, of course. We've done work with for a number of different public funded parties in that space. So that's the sort of the way we we Reduction. But as you say, hand in glove with, with the government departments across across all of the DFT, but then also into environment and into bays and what what is now the sort of den I'm not sure how to pronounce it yet, but the Government for the sort of Net Zero and things that Grant Shapps is in.
Andy Eastlake [00:10:58]:
So we do cross government still, which again I think is really important. We're not sort of one a Electric pony. We're trying to join up the dots across a lot of different spaces.
Liz Allan [00:11:08]:
Oh, that's good. So you were just talking you mentioned, air quality retrofits then, and it just got me thinking of something that I saw, over the weekend. It was, I think it was Paul Kirby that shared shared it about kind of, there was a, there was a young girl that that died and part of the, they they were talking about poor air quality. Weren't they? That actually was a massive contributor to to her death?
Andy Eastlake [00:11:33]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So so and and, you know, her mother has has been a a huge champion of the air quality agenda, particularly particularly in London. But, yeah, within our remit, we have at ZEMO, we have an air quality mandate and a climate change mandate, and and the 2 go hand in hand. So clearly, 0 tailpipe emissions is is a huge leap forward in in addressing both both aspects of that, providing we know where the the energy is coming from. But it doesn't solve all the problems. You know, there are still issues with break wear particulates, the tire wear particulates, the things there that we, you know, the job is not done when we remove the combustion engine from a vehicle. And it's also, I think people forget the the the time it takes to transition a fleet.
Andy Eastlake [00:12:21]:
So we've got 40,000,000 vehicles on the road. I think we sold about 1,600,000, 1,700,000 cars. It's gonna take a long time for all of these vehicles to be 0 tailpipe emissions. So what can we do in the meantime to clean up the rest of the vehicles? And that means cleaning up from an air quality pollutant, but also from a carbon perspective. So that's where things like renewable fuels in what people refer to as dirty diesels actually, diesels now are, you know, 98% cleaner than they used to be 20 years ago when I first started. So we've come a long way, and it's really important that we we don't we don't sort of ignore the fact that actually we've we've done a huge amount to improve air quality, and there's still more we can do. So I'm a great supporter of things like the ULEAS Clean Air Zones and those policy sort of arrangements, those policy levers that, encourage and help people and fleets to think about cleaning up their their vehicles themselves, you know, with with retrofit, with funding, or changing their travel behaviors or, you know, if you can go to an electric vehicle, great. So there's lots and lots of options and and it's about, you know, trying to find the right ones for for different people.
Andy Eastlake [00:13:39]:
But air quality is is a really immediate issue, and as as well as the climate change, sort of agenda that we focus on as well.
Liz Allan [00:13:48]:
And I think what you just said there about changing your travel behavior, is is so important, isn't it? Because it isn't the more people I talk about talk to peep you know, talk to people about this, the more it kind of makes me realize that, you know, for for my role, I I do drive quite a lot. So so my my aim is because I can't really do what I do and not drive a car. So so for me, it's about I don't wanna be kicking out. You know, I I don't wanna have it anything coming out of my tailpipe if I can if I can help it. So my mine is my UK myself to kind of get get to that point. But for my for for example, and I've talked about this before on the podcast with my husband who's, who's in, you know, professor of climate science. He doesn't want to drive. He doesn't need to drive.
Liz Allan [00:14:42]:
He works at the university. He'll either get public transport there. He'll walk his cycle. You know? But but lots of people don't realize that that the kind of the kind of that there's there's lots of people who are kind of very negative about people, you know, wanting to move to EVs for example or or kind of the infrastructure etcetera etcetera. There's quite a lot of negativity in the press, isn't it? Because they kinda push it out anything that, you know, has a go at anybody. When when what they need to think about is the fact that we don't want any other people dying of air pollution.
Andy Eastlake [00:15:18]:
Yeah. It's it's it's it's really UK. As you say, it's it's become almost, evangelistic in in in some respects, which I think is is not actually helpful. You know, different people have different needs, you know, travel needs, transport needs. The Electric is to try and help everybody make the next step. So that next step might be, it might be getting a cleaner car, It might be going all the way to an electric car. It might be not having a car at all and using public transport. It might be cycling everywhere.
Andy Eastlake [00:15:51]:
But everybody and and it comes back to that that sort of mantra. Everything can be made better, you know, step by step, but nothing is is perfect in this world. So, you know, if everybody had an electric Vehicle, if we had 40,000,000 electric vehicles in 2050, we'd probably not UK, Electric Charge, we've probably not succeeded because we've still got the same congestion, we've still got, you know, all this resource that we've got. So we've got to be moving towards a far more efficient use of space, resources, energy, all of the above, if we possibly can. But that you know, it's not easy. So, yeah, fortunately, I'm not tasked with making the biggest decisions on this, but hopefully helping everybody think about whether that's fleets particularly and, you know, users about what they can do slightly differently, to actually move forward. But, you know, I'm a great believer in in, you know, everybody can move forward, but not everybody can take those same big steps. And not everybody can afford an electric car at the moment.
Liz Allan [00:16:54]:
No. Exactly. And and do you know what? I was I was thinking thinking back to during, the pandemic, you know, when when more people started working from home, because that was kind of a bit of a before before the pandemic, there were so many large company. I've worked work from home on and off for for years, you know, but I'm out I'm out or I'm working from home or or I'm out again, you know? But it was it was kind of a bit of, a sore point for some companies, wasn't it? You know, for a long time and then all of a sudden we we Charge. We kind of it was you you had no choice. You had you had to work from home. And and it and it seemed and I I totally get it for mental health reasons because it's good for people to be working in in an environment with other people that they can actually, you know, converse with, for example. But there are still some companies that were forcing their staff to go back to work in the office when actually it's probably putting more stress on their mental health having to commute again?
Andy Eastlake [00:17:56]:
Yeah. It's it's a really interesting one. And, actually, I I probably come from, you know, the old school where, you know, working from home, you didn't trust that someone was actually doing anything at home. That's probably where I was, you know, back in the day. And then, as you say, we were all forced to make it function to actually work. And I brought in some new staff, during the pandemic who, you know, they literally never met each other until 3 years or 2 years down the line sort of thing. I think the hybrid is, personally I think, is really important. I think it's really difficult to mentor young, young, you know, junior members of staff over Zoom or or like this, you know, you really can't do that.
Andy Eastlake [00:18:41]:
But there are times when actually sat at home scrolling away in a darkened room trying to work on a huge spreadsheet or something is the best way of doing it. So a hybrid approach. But, yeah, getting that to work and creating keeping a team together remotely or in a hybrid way is quite hard. You know, we're grappling with it, as I'm sure many, many companies Charge. But I think we'll emerge the other side in better shape. But we need a travel system. I go into London maybe twice a week, and, you know, we need a robust travel system that that allows us to do that and and, and helps us and is affordable, is low carbon, is all of the things that we're looking for. And and that's really, really important.
Liz Allan [00:19:28]:
Because I was thinking as well, when we were all working from home, when we didn't have a choice, you know, and I'm not saying that everybody was working from home, because I know there were still obviously this this there were still people, you know, kind of on the front line and, you know, it kind of NHS and all the all the other services, you know, kind of hospital well, not necessarily hospitality because that was kinda shut down, wasn't it? But but, you know, kind of retail, for example, that people were travelling a lot less. But Then there was this big push to get people back into the towns and cities, wasn't there? So it it kind of felt like we were going in a direction and then and then it was kind of you know, and then we're forced to we were forced to do this, weren't we? We had no choice. So the people who didn't like change, you just had to change because that was it. You know? But then all of a sudden, right, it's kinda like, right. Okay. You've gotta do this now. You've gotta go in this other Reduction. Back the way you were going.
Liz Allan [00:20:18]:
So you again, you know, I I I don't know what the levels of air pollution were during or lower levels during COVID.
Andy Eastlake [00:20:25]:
I mean, Transport is one of the, that has been one of the biggest, or has been the biggest sector in terms of climate change and greenhouse gases, and one of the biggest contributors to some of the air pollution issues over the years are NOx and particulates. And it's still, you know, it's still there as a key piece of it. Certainly, air pollution improved significantly during lockdown when when people weren't driving as much. And, you know, there's also some really good evidence about the effect of clean air zones and the ULA's and things like that and the and the impact that those policies have had. The the the way that travel's recovered is interesting and and it's something that we've looked at quite carefully, but people aren't driving as much during the week, but they're now driving more during the weekend. So there's a bit more sort of and and public transport use, I haven't checked the stats recently, but that certainly wasn't back to where it it used to be in terms of public transport. And I think there's a danger. I remember, you know, some of the early early ministers actually, you know, 2 or 3 years ago talking about we don't want it to be a car led recovery in terms of coming out of the pandemic.
Andy Eastlake [00:21:35]:
And I think it has been a bit
Liz Allan [00:21:38]:
car led.
Andy Eastlake [00:21:38]:
Yes. Albeit that, you know, if you talk to the automotive industry, they're still not back to where they were in terms of sales and partly down to supply chain. So, you know, there's a lot of different things at play here. We want a successful automotive industry, but at the same time, we're saying we don't want the car led rec well, how can you square those 2 sort of perspective? It's a it's a really, really challenging time, I think, that we've gone through. We are emerging. There's no doubt about it. And and I think, hopefully, we're all finding our finding our way. And if we can get to the point of questioning some of the travel, you know, and and and, you know, the shorter shorter journeys, let's let's let's grab all of that health and and, yeah, I used to walk and cycle a lot more during lockdown than I probably do today, but, actually, can we get back to some of that, so so that we've, you know, shifting in the right Reduction? Like I say, a bit a bit better, a bit less, you know, impact on the environment, every day.
Liz Allan [00:22:36]:
Yeah. I mean, I suppose, do you know, it's funny, you when you were saying then about that less less travel, it it, you know, I've I've noticed. So the work that a lot of the work that I'm doing at the moment is kind of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays where I'm out and about. And and those are the days that seems to be and and I'm assuming that, you know, if you kind of think rule of thumb is, people people used to work 5 days and they always used to work out and about. You know, you'd have to get in the Charge. Blah blah blah. But now it seems to be like a, you know, a a sort of a mix. So I'd say Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is quite bad.
Liz Allan [00:23:14]:
The traffic for me is quite bad, especially so I'm kind of m 4, m 25, kind of round that way, and you always know or m 40, and it's always a bit shocking. If I can get anywhere in less than an hour, I'm always amazed. But, but, you you know, kind of Fridays, Mondays and Fridays for me. And this is this is I've I've got nothing. I've got no data to about this. So this is just me personally saying this, especially on a Friday. Getting getting to somewhere like so I I drive from Reading to Uxbridge because I've got some work over there, and that is a joy on a Friday.
Andy Eastlake [00:23:48]:
Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm commuting into London and and, you know, out of preference, I'll probably go in on a Monday or Friday because there is no doubt that, you know, the the, it's it's a lot quieter those days. And we are back up to, you know, crowding into the tubes on a on a Tuesday to get to get into town. So it's it's, you know, and as I say, you know, there are times when you do want everyone together and you want to create that Government. And there are times when actually, you know, whether it's at home or indeed in a quieter office, there's benefits. So, yeah, I I I it's a really interesting time at the moment and and how we make the transport system work for people because, You look at the trains and, you know, some of the problems we're having there, headlines even today about buses and the reduction in bus services. Buses are the backbone of our Transport, public transport system.
Andy Eastlake [00:24:42]:
And they've, you know, we've done a lot of work in that space and there's some really good initiatives there. They're one of the first places that should be going electric, you know, urban, high density Transport of activity. So we're really, really pro electric zero emission buses as much as possible. And in fact I think 50% of the buses sold last year were zero Reduction. So it's actually a sector that's moving pretty rapidly, more rapidly than you realize. You know, we all talk about the cars and 17% of cars last year sold were zero Reduction, 50% of buses, 50% of mopeds as well. So those those small, you know, the pizza delivery and that sort of thing, again, ideally suited for, Electric in this case, zero emission solution. So, you know, we we always myopically focus on, you know, how's the car industry doing? How do we get the the zero emission cars? And by that is, of course, the large bulk of you know, so 60% of our emissions of our greenhouse gas emissions come from Carbon, 20% from vans, 20% from trucks, 3 or 4% from buses, only a small percentage from 2 wheeler, power 2 wheelers from motorbikes and mopeds and things.
Andy Eastlake [00:25:57]:
But, you know, taxis should be 0 emissions. Buses should be 0 emissions. Mopeds, absolutely ideally suited. Carbon delivery vans, and we're seeing some really good inroads in that space. I think was it Royal Mail? I think they've just hit 4,000 vans, Electric Vehicles, the other day. Quite quiet. And I remember talking to Royal Mail a few years ago about this and there was, you know, but that is a huge fleet and that is a really material step forward that maybe we're not celebrating enough because that, you know, that's probably more impactful. Those vans, having seen what Royal Mail vans do, it's a bit like a dust car, a refuse vehicle.
Andy Eastlake [00:26:38]:
You know, refuse vehicles are down your street, slow speed, you know, they're idling or whatever, and and, they should be 0 emissions. So let's let's hit the low hanging fruit, you know, really hard before we grapple with the, the the biggest, longest, heaviest, most challenging ones at the moment.
Liz Allan [00:26:56]:
Yeah. And and it's like anything. People are very quick to point the finger, but not notice all the all the wonderful things that are going on. You know? So that's the that's the biggest thing, isn't it? So if if we go on to so the EV Energy Energy Task Force, I was gonna ask you. So how did you how did you bring automotive and the energy energy sectors together? In some ways, it makes perfect sense to me knowing what I do now. But what what was it for you?
Andy Eastlake [00:27:28]:
Well, I think it was again, if I can go right back to the nineties, you know, I was part of the team working on the what was the auto oil program at the time, trying to get the automotive industry and the oil industry to work together on, you know, can we make fuels better and engines work better with fuels? And there's always things you can do with the 2 of them and improve them. But it was a bit like this, you know, auto and oil were always a little bit at loggerheads. So it was an interesting time. And then what we found, you know, going forward, we realized quite quickly in the electric vehicle space that essentially, you know, we're talking about an energy and a mobility spectrum. So we're trying to get energy and mobility to work together. And the vehicle is almost a tool in the middle of that. But UK is far more flexible, far more challenging in some respects when you talk about electric vehicles. So we we realized quite quickly, and that's where I think ZEMO is points well placed, we've got this very wide community, where I think Zemo is is well placed.
Andy Eastlake [00:28:32]:
We've got this very wide community, broad church of people. So we're really well placed to bring these different voices to the table and start grappling with some of the, the related issues, you know, rather than a very narrow automotive perspective. And it was we actually started something called the EV network. I think there's another EV network now that's evolved. So, really just started to realize that actually electric vehicles is now it's not just a vehicle technology. It's an energy energy delivery, energy storage, and vehicle technology challenge. So we've got to have these guys talking together. And if they are working together, it suddenly opens up all sorts of opportunities.
Andy Eastlake [00:29:16]:
And you can see that now with things like, you know, the flexible services and, you know, smarter charging and all these Vehicle are grid. All these sorts of potential things that you can do with electrons that you can't do with gasoline and diesel, you're not going to feed gasoline back into your house and use it to heat up your hot water or whatever. So we started bringing people together, and it was some of the, some of the energy network team and people like EA Technology who, you know, they had huge experience in that space, and they were starting to do work. We were seeing the energy sector looking at electric vehicles and doing projects on electric vehicles. So you'll probably remember Electric Nation as a project, which was quite an interesting one about, you know, charging Vehicles. But it was it was driven from the energy space, and we were sort of talking to those guys, well, actually, why don't we try and bring our experience with automotive and our links into the automotive, you know, the SMMT and people like that, we're we're we're probably closer to. Let let's all try and talk the same language. Let's all work together.
Andy Eastlake [00:30:20]:
And from that, we sort of developed the concept of the Electric vehicle energy task force, which essentially was government saying, yeah. We really get this, and we we we really support the principle of trying to get auto and energy to to work together in this space. Zimo, you're in a really good position. Zimo and the energy systems catapult. Why don't you work together and we'll we'll fund you. So we were funded by government to create and form the Electric energy task force and really start to grapple. The idea was, how do we make sure the energy system isn't a barrier and arguably is the enabler to large scale uptake of electric vehicles? So the focus was really on the car sector and charging. So we we haven't put as much focus on the heavy duty sector, which is really interesting now.
Andy Eastlake [00:31:12]:
But things like smart charging, things like charge points, things like the energy system, how do we how do we make sure we've got enough of Graham's National Grid wires in the ground and enough of the ES, the system operator, you know, flexibility, and and we're making that work with the Vehicles, so that the infrastructure isn't a barrier to uptake. And you probably read the same papers that I do and at the moment there is some narrative that says infrastructure is holding electric vehicles back. I don't necessarily subscribe to that same voice, but that's certainly some of the narrative that's coming out. And so how do we address that? And I think the EV Energy Task Force, it's been, you know, published some some pretty big scale reports about, you know, what we need to do, what are the enabling conditions that we need for 2030, 2035. And that is now sort of lifting itself up. So we're expecting in the next sort of, you know, month or 2, a move from what was the EV Energy Task Force into something slightly different slightly different phraseology, that government again is gonna support. So, hopefully, watch this space, and and we'll carry on pushing this whole agenda forward.
Liz Allan [00:32:19]:
Brilliant. I think it just needs to do it. And and like you say, yeah, there is there is there's always gonna be negativity, isn't there?
Andy Eastlake [00:32:29]:
It's yeah. It's it's it's I mean, the the the the the constant rocks being thrown across between electric and hydrogen always worry me. You know, we we are Yeah. We we we're gonna need you know, Charge is part of the energy system. Exactly what role it's gonna play within Transport, in road transport in particular. I think there's, you know, definitely opportunities in various places. I think we haven't fully fully established it yet. So, let's not, you know, burn all of our bridges, if I can use a Excuse
Liz Allan [00:32:57]:
the pun.
Andy Eastlake [00:32:57]:
Analogy. Yeah. You know, before we've really realized it. So, you know, we're part of and we've been supporting the zero emission road freight program, which is big, you know, multi multi £200,000,000 of funding for heavy duty trucks. What's gonna be the right solution there? Because it's a really challenging environment, and getting the best out of that, you know, from an efficiency perspective, in an ideal world, you want to deliver the electrons directly to the motor in real time. So an overhead catenary and overhead wire is the the least lossy system, the most efficient system of getting electrons to a motor and driving a vehicle forward. Lots of challenges in that. You know, batteries are are good, but, you know, there are there are downsides.
Andy Eastlake [00:33:43]:
There's resource downsides there, batteries capacity, weight, Charge, you know, into mega megawatt charging and things. So hydrogen as an energy carrier, is is potentially quite a useful one, but I don't think we've fully understood. So we will be running, projects on both hydrogen trucks and battery electric trucks, looking at these and trying to sweat not only the Vehicles. The vehicles are arguably the easy bit. I think we know how to build a hydrogen truck, Electric truck, a catenary truck. It's actually an energy and operations system that we really need to grapple with and and understand and then relate into the wider world because trucks don't just stay on this island. They do go across to the continent and things, so we need to work out what's happening there. So it's a really interesting time in in that space.
Liz Allan [00:34:33]:
And I was gonna say at the moment, it's about it's like you said about data earlier, isn't it? It's about gathering the data because you can't move forward until you've got the data to prove it. Otherwise, it's just theory, isn't it?
Andy Eastlake [00:34:45]:
Yeah. You you you gotta measure it and you gotta measure it from different perspectives because everyone's got a slightly different view on the world and and what's important. So, I mean, we're doing work at the moment about, you know, what data we need from that zero emission road freight program. And that's I I think that's an area where XEMO can really help, that that we we don't come to it with a a sort of hidden agenda. It's it's let let the evidence speak for itself, and and and the right solutions will sort of bubble up. And so, let's let's but getting good data, measuring it properly, getting it from the real world, you know, that sort of thing, that was part of my background, real world testing of vehicles, you know, real world cycles. Yeah. There's nothing like sort of kicking the tires and seeing how it works in the, in the real world.
Liz Allan [00:35:35]:
So you're saying you're a data geek then, are you?
Andy Eastlake [00:35:38]:
A bit of a data geek, I'm afraid. Yeah. I think that what I do enjoy though is is and and I guess we'll come up with is making data work for, you know, the user. And that user might be the consumer. And, you know, there's an awful lot of people that don't want to go and buy their next car with a spreadsheet and, you know, lots of time trying to work out TCR. They just want a nice shiny one that does what they want. Yeah. And that's where, you know, when when we spoke at the start about, you know, how do we make good information accessible to different people.
Andy Eastlake [00:36:16]:
And and and charging terminology is a is a really, really interesting one at the moment that that we're grappling with. You know, what is what is fast? What's rapid? Is fast faster than rapid? Is mega better than ultra? What's slow? What's standard? And and how does that work? And most people don't want to, you know, they don't want to be trying to sort of fathom this out. So we've got I mean, it's great for me. I mean, I, you know, yeah, I want a 175 kilowatt charger doing this and for that long and charging curves and all these sorts of things. But, yeah, it's it's, really, really interesting trying to get data making data work for the the audience.
Liz Allan [00:36:54]:
Yeah. It's it's funny. I was, I was listening. I don't know whether you got a chance to listen to the so I always talk about the Evie Cafe, but they had their webinar on last week. And and they put out a poll saying, you know, do do what do you want to do you think people want to hear about the, you know, the the kind of the fast Charge, rapid charging? You know, I I suppose, my thinking is I want to know when I take my car, how long am I gonna be there? What what can I do while I'm there? Am I gonna be safe? I was talking at Kate Tyrrell last week, actually. Am I gonna be safe when I when I Charge the car? And if there's a problem, what do I need to do to kind of man manage that? You know, the the necessarily interested in the minutia. I do wanna know a little bit. You know? But I'm sure other people aren't as interested in it as I am.
Liz Allan [00:37:45]:
Yeah. I I think you're absolutely right. I think
Andy Eastlake [00:37:51]:
this is this is one of the things that we're we're moving from the the, early adopters or EV geeks, if I can call them that, that, that and we're moving into the mass market. The mass market is a, you know, huge range of different people and different requirements, and and that's that's part of the challenge I think we are facing, and and that's where some of the narrative about the, the network and the and the UK, not doing what people need is coming from. That it's it's people don't know what they need. You'll have experienced this, you know, once you've been in there and used it and driven it, oh, yeah, actually, this is quite straightforward. But it's a bit like giving your grandparents, or in my case, your mother, an iPhone, you know, I've got no idea what this does. So it's, you know, it's those sorts of things that we've got to get over. Things are moving so quickly, that it is quite challenging for some people. But I think, I mean, one of the areas that the EV Energy Task Force and our team are working on quite actively is things like complaint handling.
Andy Eastlake [00:38:53]:
So having a consistent way of raising a concern about charging problems. At the moment, you know, if you get a home charger in a car and at home it doesn't work, is it your grid? Is it your charger? Is it your car? Is it the communication between the 2? Is it some problem with your tariff? You know, you end up getting thrown from pillar to post. So things like that, when you're out and about, you know, who do you phone? As you know, we've got multiple charging networks. And then have you got mobile coverage when you're there, which is a particular challenge. So is it is it the fault of the mobile system? Is it the fault of the charger? There's there's there's so much going on. It's a hugely complex sort of energy communications data system and mobility system. And quite frankly, most people just want to get from a to b and then top up easily and have a coffee at the same time and are on their way. So, how do we make that work for everybody? It's, yeah.
Andy Eastlake [00:39:57]:
We've certainly got a little a job for a little while yet.
Liz Allan [00:40:00]:
It's it's kinda going back to that behaviour change, isn't it, really? And and sort of like your your travel your travel behaviour has to change because you have to be a bit more thoughtful about it and making sure that you, you know, that actually things like your phone is charged, you know, so that you're not gonna run it's easier said than done, isn't it? But kinda, you know, making sure all these things are in place. But when when I'm travelling around, I know how much petrol I've got in my in my car at the moment. So I kinda know how many miles I need to do before I need to put some more petrol in it. And, surely, that's a very similar and I don't wanna run out of charge on my phone. You know? So, surely, it's just a slightly different version of of that, isn't it? You know, kind of where you just have things in place.
Andy Eastlake [00:40:48]:
I think so. I mean, I one one thing I would say is that my experience of the range, meters on on the electric cars are they're very good. They're very accurate. And and, and and so, you know, it is pretty clear. And we're now getting we're we're seeing consolidation of the charging networks in in in commercial ways. You've got I mean, obviously, you've got people like ZapMap who do some really, really good work. I mean, you know, Melanie and and and Ben have done an excellent job there in creating, you know, what is the iconic, and and is the the government approved network picture. So they've done a really good job, and we're seeing a lot of the, the the the players sort of consolidate charging networks to make the payment much, you know, much easier via one card.
Andy Eastlake [00:41:36]:
You know, I was using one the other day where that actually, you can allocate any RFID card to this network, so you don't have to get a separate card for them. So they're all learning and thinking about this and working out how to do it. You know, I've got things like Octopus Go who've got their own Electric sort of system as well. So, you know, I I don't charge up as much in public as maybe a lot of people, but I've had very few problems. It's been, it's been interesting at times. Even over this weekend, I was I was staying at a hotel and got there and said, oh, have you got a charge points? There was nothing on Zap Map, and and they said, yeah. We've got one, but it's not working. I went round there.
Andy Eastlake [00:42:17]:
It looked okay. Plugged in, got a Charge. No problem at all, and, yep, that was fine. I had to pay for it, and it was working with the with the network, but even the receptionist didn't know what it was about. And I think that's equally part of the problem, you know, getting, you know, getting it into the psyche that it's part of, you know, because they'd know if if there wasn't a mobile service, they would kind of be aware that, oh, yeah. We haven't we haven't got any mobile here or sort of thing. You know? So, yeah, it's it's, interesting, interesting times.
Liz Allan [00:42:47]:
It does remind me, you know, of the days when, you know, when we first started to kind of all the telephone, all the networks where before, and I didn't have this for very long. But, you know, where you had your your top up card for your phone, and you had lots of different top up cards. You know? And then that Transport of changed to kind of, like, 1 month monthly. You know, I I have a monthly contract. Do you know what I mean? And then and, you know, if you have a monthly contract, it's this. And if you do pay as you go, then it's that. It kind of feels like it's starting to come together a little bit on that in that way.
Andy Eastlake [00:43:21]:
It is. I mean, you know, a few years ago and you might remember there was there was a, a company called was it Wim, w h I m, Wim, I think it was, that were doing a a sort of mobility service. So it was a monthly fee, £300 a month or something, and you could get a scooter, a taxi. So you you could buy this whole mobility package. Now I don't I don't know whether it's still running, but if if you like, it's that you know, I I want to be able to to go where I want to go in the most convenient way. And at the moment, that is often driving, but it shouldn't necessarily be. I mean, I live in Milton Keynes, so we've got 3 or 3 scooter, hire systems here. We've got a bus service, we've got a, a, demand responsive Transport, service, we've got the red ways for cycling, we've got support for electric Vehicles.
Andy Eastlake [00:44:11]:
But I tend to drive, out of because it's easy. So how do we get people to change that psyche and create an environment that, you know, it is an integrated transport mobility sort of service that's just kind of easy. And that's, you know, I think Wim were ahead of their time in that respect. I think that will come, but it's not quite there. I mean, the Oyster Carbon arguably in London is sort of a precursor to that sort of thing, where you just kind of got on a bus or on a tube or whatever and didn't really have to worry about it, and that's when we're seeing that in a couple other metro spaces as well. So, I think that sort of thing and integrating that with rental cars, you know, car club type vehicles, electric scooters, and, and other options is is is really a way forward for us if we can. And that's where we can get to, hopefully, fewer cars on the road, but if they're electric, sweated more, because it is about, you know, batteries are great and zero emissions are great, when you use them. But having a, you know, buying and and investing in that battery and the Carbon and and not using it isn't necessarily the, the right way of going about things.
Liz Allan [00:45:31]:
No. I agree. Do you know it's funny. I was thinking so so overnight, where there's a where where I live on this on the close where we are in Resin, there's only 10 there's 10 houses on this close. We had a power cut just in this just in this close last night. And Sonny said to me this morning, yeah, but you should have been asleep. You you know, it shouldn't have bothered you that it was it was off from 1 o'clock in the morning. But he actually was off until 9 o'clock.
Liz Allan [00:45:55]:
And and and and actually, I kinda said to my son, I said, I wonder what that would have meant if we had an electric car. Would that meant we could have actually powered the house back depending on whether we had a diverter on him? You know? I wonder if I wondered whether we could have actually done you know, kind of kept the power going from an electric vehicle if it was charged and I didn't need to take it anywhere.
Andy Eastlake [00:46:18]:
There's some I mean, the guys at Cenex, you know, we've we've had done a lot of work with Cenex over the years, and, and Rob and the team there, they've done some really good work on Vehicle to grid and, and vehicle to home. And there's a lot of I think that's an area with which is growing. I'm I'm in the process of putting some more solar panels on and a battery, a home battery, because I think, you know, part of the challenge is that your car is mobile, so it may not be here when you want to either charge it up with the solar panels or indeed here when you want to discharge Carbon. So there's a lot of opportunities there and we're putting a lot of batteries into the system with electric Charge. So how we use those effectively is is really, really important. So, yeah, I'm I'm probably, you know, same as you, Charge up carefully at night when it's the cheapest rate that I can and and thinking about that. And it's it's very rare that your Charge, you run it down so low that there's no charge in it at all and you can't get somewhere. So it's, and and, you know, learning how to do that effectively, it's it's a it's a slightly different psyche, but, it it, you know, it is relatively easy to to to mandate.
Andy Eastlake [00:47:28]:
And you can now hand a lot of that over to someone else to do it for you. So you can you can just tell them, I want my car, and I I need to go to, you know, Shrewsbury on Monday. Just make sure I've got enough charge in it, and and do it the best time for you as the grid. And that sort of stuff is, is is great. You know, that you hand over some of that control to to people who can who can really sweat it.
Liz Allan [00:47:49]:
I love the I love the technology and the ability to be able to do all this stuff. It's it's it's amazing. And and I always say, it just blows my mind. And I think probably, in 7 years time was less than 7 years now, isn't it? I think we're gonna be in a very different place again, and hopefully, more people, more, you you know, more consumers will have embraced the technology and electric vehicles and other alternative methods of of transport. You know, I just I'm I kinda hope I I see it as, like you said, it's a it is a very interesting time, and I'd love to be a fly on the wall and be able to look look at look forward in 7 years' time and kind of actually be out to see now, but but let's just see how see how it works.
Andy Eastlake [00:48:34]:
Yeah. I think I think one of the the biggest things that people can do is just try something different. I mean, you you you'll know that, you know, if you go and try out an electric car, you know, one of them may work for you, one of them may not work for you in different points. But but actually, oh, this is this is this is relatively easy. I mean, we we we ran a team day where I got the whole of my team. We went we came up here to Milton Keynes to the EV center when when it was, and and went out, drove Electric Carbon went and charged them as well. Because it's not just about driving. You gotta go, oh, what? Absolutely.
Andy Eastlake [00:49:04]:
You know? That's that's pretty straightforward. Yeah. I understand how to do that. And once you've done it once or the same with an electric scooter, try it. Okay. Well, I can see how this can work in some situations. Or, I don't know about you, but, you know, for years years, I I had never taken a bus. I I just just hadn't needed to.
Andy Eastlake [00:49:23]:
That's what they
Liz Allan [00:49:23]:
were all meant. Clinky. Yeah.
Andy Eastlake [00:49:25]:
No. But actually, they do work pretty well in a number of situations, and and and you wouldn't dream well, I wouldn't dream of of driving into London, I'll be perfectly honest. It's just, just not the right sort of thing to do. So, yeah, try something different and and, and and, you know, experience as many of these different opportunities as possible because once you've done it once, it's an awful lot easier to use it in the future. And and that that's what I think, you know, getting more people to experience an electric car, electric bus, electric bicycles are some really, you know, electric bikes are incredibly good, and incredibly Electric, for for old fat people like me that, cycle up hills now. So, they, you know, they they are a godsend and, I think, you know, more people should try that sort of thing as well.
Liz Allan [00:50:11]:
Yeah. I think you're right. And and it is it's about the mid the using this mix mix that works for everybody because it's not it's not one size fits all for everybody, is it? It's it's whatever is suitable for you. You know? I I've got I've got friends and colleagues who who kind of have said to me, oh, well, you know, I'm probably, you know, I'm gonna be one of the last to move over to to electric because I like my diesel or petrol car. We'll carry on for a little while, but actually be open to make you know, be a bit open minded about these things.
Andy Eastlake [00:50:43]:
Yeah. I'm I'm one of the things that we're working on is the role of plug in hybrids, PHEVs. I've I've been running a a range extender for 10 years now almost or 8, 9 years. And actually, as a technology, it works very well, and it's a it's an easy step into running in electric mode. And and, you know, if it does 30, 40 miles, most of your mileage, most of your journeys are done, and you haven't got any of that angst. So I still think there's a role for those. I mean, I I know the the points sort of hate them with a a vengeance, but, you know, they're they're part of the solution. You know, hydrogen is part of the solution.
Andy Eastlake [00:51:22]:
All of these things, even, you know, right now, we're still pushing on low carbon fuels. So we've got 40,000,000 vehicles on the road. 98% of those or 97% of those are still running on gasoline and diesel. What can we do about cleaning those up Yeah. Whilst we change as many as possible over to 0 emissions? Yeah. So so let's not, let's not be so myopic that we only focus on this one one sort of direction. We've got we've got to do everything. We've gotta we've gotta use every tool in the boxes, you know, to to to get us to where we need to be.
Andy Eastlake [00:51:54]:
The climate and and air quality challenges are so great that we can't rely on just one approach. We've got to really throw the kitchen sink in it. Absolutely. Too many analogies there.
Liz Allan [00:52:04]:
No. I like analogies. That's absolutely great. That's great. Well, listen, to start to finish off with, what I wanted to ask you was, can you let everybody know what the what the web address is so that they can
Andy Eastlake [00:52:19]:
have a look? Absolutely. Yeah. So so Ximo partnership I mean, we are a a partnership organization, so people work in the space. So ximo.org.uk, we're a, say partly government funded, not for profit, really important point. We're here for the good of the industry, and it's really about joining people up and trying to accelerate transport ultimately to 0 emissions.
Liz Allan [00:52:43]:
Yes.
Andy Eastlake [00:52:43]:
So that's where we're going, all of us. We're here to help everyone get there successfully.
Liz Allan [00:52:49]:
And and if I mean, you are a CEO and you don't want loads of people approaching you because you're probably very, very busy, which I know you are. What where's the is it is there a a kind of a contact us sort of, page on the website if people are interested in in talking to somebody?
Andy Eastlake [00:53:06]:
Yeah. Absolutely. On on the website, best best email is [email protected]. So just, send a message to hello. It'll probably end up somewhere in in my desk. I I normally get to see most things. We're a small we're a small team, a smaller, perfectly formed team. So, yeah, we, we we get to see it.
Andy Eastlake [00:53:24]:
But, yeah, I you know, LinkedIn, websites, Twitter, all of the social and things like that, we're we're keen to engage with people, in this. We're not ostensibly customer facing. We're very much a sort of b to b, but what we hope we can do is help those that are customer facing really get to grips with this this huge sort of, experience and resource that that Ximo has access to in terms of our membership. So, hopefully, we can help you in terms of your customer facing activity, really make it work.
Liz Allan [00:53:57]:
Brilliant. Do you know what I should have said right at the beginning as well? Congratulations on making the GF100 last week.
Andy Eastlake [00:54:03]:
But thank you very much. I wasn't I wasn't available. I was away. So I couldn't sit there and celebrate with Rob and, and and Graham, but, no, it's, it's always a good, a good event. And and Greenfleet, they got I've I've known the guys at Greenfleet for well, since they started again back in 2004. So, yeah, they're, they're a good bunch. Colin and and Jason have done a really good job there, and there's some some great people on there. And I think Yeah.
Andy Eastlake [00:54:26]:
You know, I said in in some of the social, it's actually it's people that make the difference. It's it's not organizations. It's people and and partnership, which is really what it's all about.
Liz Allan [00:54:36]:
The sector is just so open and welcoming and caring and actually all wanna do the right thing for the you know, they all wanna do the right thing for the right reasons, which which, you know so for those who of you who aren't in the sector and are watching or listening to this, then then just start delving into it because it's really, really interesting. Some of the stuff you'll you'll see, especially on LinkedIn. There's a lot of chatter on LinkedIn and probably probably Twitter. I know Instagram a little bit, but there's a lot of chatter goes on on LinkedIn.
Andy Eastlake [00:55:07]:
Yeah. Chat there's a lot of chatter. I think that's a that's a good way of putting it. Yes.
Liz Allan [00:55:10]:
Good chatter. As it you know, lots of information out there, and it's and the majority of it is positive. And if there's any negative, there's always somebody who will be there to kind of say, right. Well, actually, you might be thinking that, but it's also have a think have you thought about this? So I like that. I like that. It's not kind of backstabbed or anything.
Andy Eastlake [00:55:30]:
It it is a it's a great place to be, you know, working in at the at the moment. Really exciting times, you know, good people doing good work and on the whole, you know, really supportive of each other and and how we move this forward. And and thinking about the long term aim and, you know, all the users. We've moved on from that. Lots of lots of many white coats in sheds sort of, you know, celebrating success and and, you know, a new battery chemistry to, actually, this is about helping people. And and that that ultimately is what I what I enjoy doing is is helping people.
Liz Allan [00:56:03]:
I'm saying absolutely the same. So on that note, I'm gonna say thank you, Andy. I really appreciate it. This has been really, really a brilliant conversation. So I don't know what you were saying about, you know, I knew it was gonna be good. And I know everybody else have been found this really, really interesting. So so on that note, thank you ever so much, and I'm gonna say goodbye to everybody else, and I'll see you all next time. Bye.
Liz Allan [00:56:26]:
You've been watching Electric Evolution with Liz Allen. Don't forget to subscribe and click on the bell icon, and you'll receive all of our weekly videos. Thanks for watching. See you soon.