(Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account) Welcome to Educating to Be Human, a podcast where we'll explore what it means to be human in today's world at the intersection of education, technology and culture. I'm your host, Lisa Petrides, founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge Management and Education.
Each week, I'll speak with people who are supporting transformative change in education, today, that is, ordinary people creating extraordinary impact. Thank you very much for listening. Today, I'd like to introduce my guest, doctor Erin O'Connell. She is a university classics professor, and she's used her expertise over the years as a teacher of ancient Greek and ancient Greek culture to delve into the long history of how the word monster and monstrous are used.
And today we have the pleasure of learning from her and having a discussion about how monsters are defined and where we can find them, not just under our beds, and not only in ancient mythology, but all around us. And we talk about how this concept of monsters brings some much needed perspective and helping us think about being human in today's world.
Welcome, Erin. Thank you Lisa. I would love, just maybe you can start with, you know what this work is about and why are we talking about monsters? Well, I found in my teaching as a classics professor that talking about monsters was a very useful, but just as importantly, fun, pedagogical approach for teaching the content and teaching critical thinking, which involved for us a thoughtful analysis of cultural and social values and beliefs.
And so we would think of monsters as a lens through which we could determine how people defined what was positive and what was negative in the in the simplest sense, or what was desirable and undesirable and what is good and what is evil. And I think everyone notices the word monster is a pretty powerful word. It packs a punch whenever it's used. It's a very popular word I found when I started working on it, it was popping up everywhere. I just would see it in all manner of contexts.
It was really kind of surprising. And another cool thing about monsters is that really, everyone, at any age, is already a bit of an expert on monsters, right? Kids know all about monsters, as you say. You know, under the bed. Adolescents are really interested in monsters. Adults are all familiar with the concept, and everyone has their own take or their own version of of what a monster is. And that's an important distinction, because, you know, my monster may not be your
monster. So it's a it's a common word. It's a powerful word. And it has a wide variety of examples of what constitutes a monster. Yeah. And it really seems to me that monsters are not only in our in our culture and our pop culture, but also it's really in sort of ancient times. Right? As well as modern use. Exactly. Exactly right. They're all over comic books, video games, movies. Right. And, you know, we are very familiar with them in the academic context in classical mythology.
Right? So ancient literatures all over the planet. And I also found that the word monster itself, not just the concept, but the word also appeared surprisingly frequently in academic and professional culture. Everybody uses it and it has unserious usages and serious usages. So, you know, I was seeing signs for monster trucks or monster pizza or monster book sale, right? It's sort of a good advertising word. It catches people's attention. So I thought it was just kind of exciting to to pursue it.
And because it was central to my own scholarly field, I could then connect it to, to sort of the rest of the world. I'd love to hear just a little bit about how you sort of connected the, you know, the ancient Greek world of philosophers and monsters to today. Like, how did you make that crossover? Well, it. Really came clear to me when I was teaching classical mythology, because we were reading all about all the ancient heroes and heroes become heroes by slaying monsters.
So it was a very kind of emphatically clear depiction of, of a monster, whether it's, you know, the Minotaur or Medusa with the snake hair or the one eyed Cyclops. But my own work was primarily in, in tragic drama, in philosophy. And I thought, well, this definition of what is, what is monstrous in in the old stereotypical monster myths reappears in drama in the form of human beings behaving monstrously to each other.
Right? So you didn't have to be some sort of bizarre hybrid, part human, part animal creature in order to do terrible, violent things. Tragic drama was really interested in showing kind of the extent of how awful people could be to each other. And and particularly powerful was how human beings treated their family members. That was sort of, you know, more monstrous than than how you treated strangers.
And then as time moved forward, philosophy became very important and was flourishing in in classical Athens in particular. And there. A similar notion of the monstrous appears, but in the form of fraudulent speech or slimy rhetoric lying to persuade people to do things. So the philosophers, you know, someone like Plato, Aristotle, Socrates in particular, were very concerned about wrong use of language.
And so what I recognized as the old kind of force of monsters in the very ancient tales appearing again in tragedy, was still there very much in the same kind of essential force in philosophy. And so then I from there I got to noticing how it was in all the academic disciplines, in one way or another, as well as professional fields. So, you know, psychology, we'll talk about psychopaths in law, we'll talk about murderers and rapists.
You know, calling someone a monster in the courtroom is extremely powerful. In medicine. The word for tumor actually comes from a Greek word for monster. A cancer is imagined as a monster. Math has a monster problem set that is, refers to an extremely unwieldy and kind of sporadic mathematical problem in bioengineering, where they have prosthesis and computer chips in people's bodies. There are some people who find that sort of monstrous and offensive and wrong.
Very often in talking about weather catastrophes, the word monster comes up. And so what, what all of these notions of monster have in common is that it's something that's typically massive in size or massive impact, and that's important. It doesn't have to be big. It can just be big impact. And it's experienced by its victims as destructive and violent and uncontrollable, often unpredictable. Another key feature is it cannot really be stopped.
It can't be suppressed, you know, permanently and their inevitable. Right. It's almost like the worst things we can imagine, right? Those examples you gave, it's like, how do we overcome the monster, right? Yes, exactly.
And it's interesting to note too, as a as a Greek professor, I cannot help myself but to point out that the origin of this word is actually from a Latin word, the verb monstra, which means to to show something remarkable, something extraordinary, something awesome, something awful in the old sense of kind of inspiring awe, which also is often accompanied by fear, like our word demonstrate, right has that monstrous aspect
to it. So it's interesting that the word just refers to showing you something remarkable. But the thing that's shown that is remarkable is big and scary and uncontrollable and fascinating. And it also, very often another kind of aspect that ties all this together is that things called monsters or monstrous reveal the radical vulnerability of human beings in human existence. Right? There's a stuff that happens to us that we cannot stop, and it's awful.
So we kind of look at that to figure out how can we stop it? How do we survive it? How do we predict it? What do we do about it? Because it's here and, you know, it's stinks to experience it. Yeah. It's really it's something that we often like we can't fully really understand that which is monstrous. Right. And so it kind of gives us this sense of the sense of dread in a way when we think about
monsters. And which, of course, brings me to the obvious sort of next question, which is, you know, what can we do with this sort of study of monsters? Like, what's the impact of even talking about this idea? Certainly there's there's a great deal of interest in sort of tying the ancient to to today. Are there things are there other sort of cultural impacts of monsters or things that we can glean from this that actually help us deal with this, with this world in this way? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
One of the things that comes from looking through the lens of monsters or thinking about the role of monsters in our societies or in our cultural belief systems, is that human beings have a desire to confront and explore taboo subjects or forbidden desires in a safe, controlled manner. And so talking about monsters kind of allows you to do that vicariously, right? Because it's sort of pretend or it's it's mythical or it's not happening to you right
then. And things that are identified as, as monstrous often are what allow us to point to something and marginalize it, right, to persecute it. So historically and culturally, you know, one group of people will point to another group of people and say they're terrible. They're awful. You know, it's a racial group. It's an ethnic group. And call them monsters, right? They're not like. Us, they're not normal.
And that depiction, that label, which we're all very familiar with, things that we don't recognize, we don't like. It's different, therefore scary. You can then justify bias and discrimination. So I think that, you know, and this is just one one thing that can happen by thinking about, you know, what gets called a monster and who's calling it that and why.
So I think one thing is we can have a more informed grasp of how and why things or people are identified as monstrous, and that can lead us to have a more nuanced appreciation of, you know, who or what is the quote unquote real monster in a situation like, for example, you know, the famous novel by Mary Shelley, Frankenstein. Right. Doctor Frankenstein creates a creature, he animates a creature, and the creature is often understood as the monster. Right? He's big. He's out of control.
He's violent. But the novel itself will show you that the quote unquote real monster is Doctor Frankenstein himself, who created this creature and then, you know, neglected it. It's a psychological response to neglect is to become, you know, violent and to not ever fit in. That's a kind of intellectual, critical inquiry type of outcome that can come from thinking about monsters and how and why and where is, you know, the violent, destructive force coming from. So is there a sort of a way back?
Because by that I really understand that when you when you think about monsters and how that's used and how we use it to create other right, other from ourselves and how anything that is or anyone who is different from us in some way, is something to be feared and then becomes, as you said, a monster to us. So how do we how do we walk our way back from there? Right as we think about this whole idea of, you know, coming back to humanity, right?
How do we how do we go from monster back into into what we're trying to be differently and coexist together? Yeah. Great question. Well, I think when we're thinking about monsters in this way, it allows us to think more broadly about, you know, how society organizes and defines itself, what are its cultural ideals and values, and how is human experience depicted? We see that careful investigation of monsters helps us to move towards growth and
change. It will sort of, you know, we rethink our social norms and prevailing opinions and by becoming more informed, learning more carefully how things work, how these notions come about, we can overcome some of those anxieties and fears. And I would also say that it provokes a kind of reflection that helps us to adjust our notion of, you know, what's monstrous, what's evil, what's violent and destructive, and what we can do about it, how we can prepare against it.
I think it helps kind of shine a light on what is the world like that we live in? What kind of world do we want to live in, and to what extent do we have some agency to to steer it in a direction that avoids, you know, inhumane treatment? Right? I mean, I think this idea of educating to be human, what does it mean to be human? You have to think about what does it mean to be inhumane? Right. And monstrous is very much typically associated with the inhumane.
So if we can see what that is and kind of evolve our notion of what that is, how it comes to be, I think it can sort of liberate us from some ignorance, from some sloppy thinking, and make us just more careful about the language we use and where it comes from. Yeah, I think that's interesting. We probably not. So unlike the ancient Greeks addressing our fears facing these monsters, right?
It really does help liberate us from, you know, that kind of simplistic thinking of, of, you know, of the inhumane.
And you can, you know, think about it just for you personally as an individual, you know, what is good, what is not good, what is desirable, what is not desirable, but also how we think about the common good, right, and who we want to be and how we want to, you know, not only educate our kiddos, but sort of build towards a society that resists the monstrous in as much as we can, but also very importantly, I think not not be afraid
of it. Right? Like check our own judgment and look more carefully and question it. Because, you know, some people are really fascinated by monsters. They sort of love that they break all the rules. Like that's that's part of the attraction. So there's a, you know, a wide variety of ways to kind of color this world. And that's another part of what's fabulous about working with it.
Right. Because you can kind of take it in different directions that, you know, grows your your thought and more articulate ways. Yeah, I like this way of of thinking about how we could become sort of more resilient against it, right? When we see it, whether it's in ourselves or in others, and how we how we can really. I like how you express how we can think about it. About the common good and who we want to be in the world we want to live in. I think that's that's so important.
So are you saying in some ways that monsters are sort of projections of the qualities of us humans and, and what we don't want to accept in ourselves or in others? Absolutely. Yes. I mean, that's that's a great way to kind of translate that, you know, they they are projections of what we're afraid of, what we don't like. And very important, they are projections of what is real, you know, real things in the world. And so it's talking about monsters looking at literature and usages of the word.
You see people, you know, wrestling with things that are common to human existence but very difficult to deal with and things that we want to change. So we sort of figure out the extent to which we might be able to work towards change and improvement, and to what extent. It's just always going to be with us. You know, the fight never stops.
And how do we grow, you know, kind of resilient and, you know, have the grit, as they say, to address it, accept it, understand it and just be thoughtful about your role. Yeah. So we're sort of like developing a, I guess you might say, an attentiveness of, of how we look at monsters and see that they're here and that they're in us. But then at the same time, imagine the kind of world we want to live in. And then that means actually dealing with the monstrosities of life in this way. Exactly.
I'm wondering also if there's some examples, like did the, you know, from the from the ancient Greek philosophers and the, the, you know, the myths, was there a similar sense of conquering, you know, the monster which was also conquering that monster within ourselves? Is there a parallel to that? There is. Let me let me tell you two quick stories. One, you remember Hercules, right?
The Greek Heracles, one of the monsters he slays is the Hydra, and the Hydra is described as a many headed snake, and he comes up with a very clever way to cut off its heads and cauterize with fire. Right the head, so that they can't grow back. So he solves the problem of the hydra by slaying it. And one theory about that myth is that that myth is a way of talking about. So Hydra means water, right? It comes from the word for water.
It was a way of talking about this seasonal flooding that would occur so suddenly. There would be many rivers, many creeks, many water flows that destroyed crops, you know, killed the olive trees, what have you. So solving the kind of meteorological problem of flooding was told through this story of, of the Hydra. But really it had to do with something more boring, like diverting water and creating reservoirs or what have you.
So it was an allegory for, you know, a sort of concrete problem that was solved. Another way to answer your question is also pertains to Heracles. He's a really interesting hero because he's heroic when he leaves civilization, goes out into the wilderness and conquers wild beasts right beyond the pale on the frontiers of existence. When he comes home, the skills that have made him such a fabulous warrior and slayer of beasts are not skills that serve him well in civilized society.
He's a little too rough. He's a little too wild. He's too bestial. He's known for, you know, walking around with a, I think, a lion's skin and a pelt on his back. And he ends up, Hera causes him to, you know, go mad, but he ends up killing his wife and children, which is a terrible, terrible thing. And he hates it, and it's awful. And then that's one of the reasons he goes off to do the famous 12 labors.
But the idea there is that there's a part of him that's fabulously useful to society and slaying monsters and protecting people, and also a part of him, that very same skill set can make him monstrous in his own home. Right. And so this idea that Greeks are very interested in pointing out how we have this incredible capacity for good and an incredible capacity for, you know, unfortunate circumstances intended and unintended.
There's there's lots of examples of where they sort of talk about the glories, the great talents of of mankind, right? The innovations, the things we invent that make human life better, and also a lot of awareness of how we destroy ourselves and our planet and the ones we love. So there's this awareness that we. We have to control ourselves. We have to manage ourselves. And you do that by looking within, right?
Know thyself and know thyself is one of the, you know, major kind of bumper sticker, pithy statements from from Socrates over the temple to Apollo at Delphi. And the other one is nothing too much. This idea of sort of moderation don't be so wild as to come home from battle and kill the people in your own home. Find the middle path that will sort of protect yourself and everyone.
I love that. I think that tension we certainly live with today in today's society, and I appreciate being able to think about that almost, that dichotomy that you have both of these pieces, but the world you want to live in has to be balanced. You have to balance that in some way, or go out to the forest or do the 12 labors. But that is, I think, so important going forward.
Being able to take this concept out of monsters and monstrosity and understand that it's, it's a lot about the fear of others and the unknown, but it's also the part of ourselves. It's in us. We all have that potential to have that monstrosity that it could in fact, serve us in some way and absolutely doesn't, doesn't serve us in others. That's interesting to see how our beliefs sort of change over time, and how we've defined good and bad.
And I can't think of a more relevant time than today, today's world in 2024, where I think we face those same kinds of issues and challenges. I agree. Yeah, I find it continually useful to to see the world through this lens really clarifies things. Well, is there anything else you want to add to our conversation today?
I have really enjoyed thinking about this with you, thinking about monsters and how they can both empower us and and inform what we do as well as very, you know, in a very thoughtful or thought provoking way, kind of think about how they can inspire us in action in our society. Yeah, yeah. I think the inspiring us to action is an important piece of this.
And a lot of that inspiration, I think, comes from developing a greater clarity just from our own individual point of view about what is moral and what is ethical and what we want to be a part of, and what we want to put a stop to kind of call it out when we see it. I think it helps kind of sharpen that awareness. You know, I'm always encouraging my students to take this and use it to change the world they live in, right?
Constantly making a connection between the old stuff and the life they're living. That's why this is relevant, right? This is why we teach it. This is why we justify making them take these general education classes. It's not just for knowledge, you know, in an erudite education. It's actually helps you think about your own life and the world you're living in and sort of, you know, use the insights of the ancients of the previous tradition. You know, that brings us to this moment.
There's a lot of good thoughts and insights that have been had. And we can we can fruitfully apply them to be the kind of people and the kind of society we want to be. Well, thank you very much, Doctor Erin O'Connell, for sharing these thought provoking insights with us today and helping us think about the role that monsters have played in our lives, from ancient times to the present day, and really shaping our understanding of ourselves and how we perceive difference in the world around us.
You've managed to find monsters everywhere from ancient greek literature to bio-engineering to some of our favorite stories. I don't think any of else will think about monsters in the same way again. I know I certainly won't. Thank you again, Erin. Thank you. It's my great pleasure. Thank you, everybody for listening to the show this week. This has been Lisa Petrides with Educating to Be Human. If you enjoy our show, please rate and review us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you
listen to your podcasts. You can access our show notes for links and information on our guests. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Educating to Be Human and Twitter X at Edu to Be Human, that is e-d-u to be human. This podcast was created by Lisa Petrides and produced by Helene Theros. Educating to Be Human is recorded by Nathan Sherman and edited by Ty Mayer. (Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account)