Welcome to Educating to be Human, a podcast where we' ll explore what it means to be human in today's world at the intersection of education, technology, and culture. I' m your host, Lisa Petrides, founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge Management in Education. Each week, I' ll speak with people who are supporting transformative change in education today. That is, ordinary people creating extraordinary impact. Thank you very much for listening.
Thank you for joining us on Educating to be Human. In this episode, I speak with Michalis Eleftheriou. He is, well, many things, but among them, he's a linguist, a musician, and as he said most recently, a farmer. Michalis is the creator of Language Transfer, which is a freely available online language learning application that truly challenges conventional approaches to how we acquire language.
In this episode, we' ll explore not just the origins and the genius of Language Transfer, but also how learning languages transforms us as humans, how it shapes our interactions, how it deepens our understanding of culture and people, and how it rewires our brain. This episode today is a perfect fit for our series on curiosity and creativity, showing how language is at the core of how we express ourselves as humans and how we connect with the world. Welcome, Michalis.
So glad to have you with us today. Thank you. Happy to be here. So tell me, what language did you speak growing up? What' s your first language? English. I grew up around other languages where I was born, but I just grew up speaking English and swearing in some other languages. So when did you begin to acquire a second language? What gave you interest in wanting to speak another language? I mean, the seed for the interest was planted really young.
The memory that comes to me has just been at the post office. And I think it was Punjabi, but I mean, how can I remember now? But there was a couple that worked then that would scream at each other, like from across the post office, from the different counters. And then they would redirect to you and address you in like this most perfect Queen' s English, which was like better than the a local accent. And that was just fascinating.
And also like in my family, I guess it seemed more fascinating outside of my own context for some reason, because in my own context, growing up around languages, like there was English and that was Greek. And then there was Greeklish. Right. And there was such a blend in the way people spoke that it was just like, only if you concentrated, would you work out if your granddad was speaking just Greeklish or Greek.
Actually, I remember there was this funny story that he was talking to my mom' s boyfriend and my mom come in and she's going like, dad, why are you speaking to him in Greek? And the guy hadn' t even noticed just because his accent in English was so thick and heavy that it passed into Greek. And the other guy, like the English guy hadn’t noticed. I love that. So tell us a little bit about what led you to begin to learn another language, a second language.
Well, I went to university and I started law and I found that really depressing. And my university was really international. And, you know, people from Mexico and Peru and Japan and Russia and just sharing flats on campus as well, you know, and I kind of had this healthy envy of people that were studying languages. I felt like I was going to boring school and they were going to Hogwarts. And then just somebody suggested to me in a bar, like.
Hey, why don' t you do this TEFL and foreign languages thing? And then you can just travel around and teach English and blah, blah. And like all the lights went off and yeah, I'd have to start in the first year again. But yeah, it was like a little adjustment period. They're going, I can do that. I can do that. Took my law exams. I passed them and whatever. And I changed and started again as a first year. How is it when somebody studies languages at the university?
So are you required to study other languages or where does the linguistics piece start to come in where you're sort of like understanding languages and their relationship with other languages? At university, we sat in front of computer screens and like looked at verb conjugation tables, but, and filling out boxes, which is like, how long is that in my brain though?
You know, and, and the, the novelty of the technique was the fact that it was on a computer and our teacher who I really did like, but you know, her speciality was in computer- based language learning. And I was just like, what is the difference here? Like having this on the screen as opposed to having it on a printout. So yeah, I wasn't, that's not what worked for me. How did you come to realize that language was more than just that, right?
More than just sort of learning some verb conjugations and passing the exam. Like, how did you come to realize how learning language changes people or your values or your cultural understanding? Um, so that's got much more to do with life experience, I guess, than the process of learning the language, but then that life experience fed into the way I wanted to teach language, you know? So it was almost like, well, that's an interesting way to put it, which I don' t know if I have before.
It. A bit like you channel your life experience through the product indirectly in that way, all the stuff that, that I learned the hard way, but that I can teach the easy way, you know, so a lot of that, for example, might have to do with realizing our own indoctrination through looking objectively at another
culture. In the same way, like, people make jokey nature videos about human beings, you know, there might be people like out on the lash, so to speak, and the camera appears and someone' s doing the voice of David Attenborough, you know, describing the mating rituals and what have you, you, you go through like social sciences at university, you' re looking at culture like this all the time.
And so indirectly at the university, that's also the stuff you get exposed to when you study a language in an international environment, you know, you're learning about economics and politics and all kinds of things. And you' re realizing how it produced the people. Now, not everybody makes that jump, but you know, of course you should at some point go, ' oh, what does that mean for me? What does that mean?' Like for what I am and how I was produced.
And it kind of breaks one of those many fourth walls that language learning breaks or can break, if you' re willing to go there. Yeah. Could you say a little bit more about that? I' m not sure how familiar people are with sort of that concept. Yeah, it' s a great concept. Like breaking the fourth wall is when you talk directly to the audience.
So when you' re watching the screen, you' re pretending like you' re on a fly on the wall, but when the actor looks directly into the camera, they break the fourth wall. So I think life is a little bit like this. We come into life thinking that we are everything we experience. And as we get older, we start breaking fourth wall. So we start understanding I' m not every thought I have just because I think that doesn't mean I believe it.
Just because my brain throws that out, it doesn't mean it's real. Just because I have that feeling, it doesn't mean it's me. I can try and correct my brain because I don' t want to feel that. We just keep breaking those four walls down throughout life. And it' s part of spiritual maturity and what makes us human precisely. And in a culture, I believe in the West, we really need to speed up that little process a little bit. Our culture is asking for it noisily and clumsily.
And language learning is just like the quickest way to break as many four walls with reality as you can. And just having a different take on the world, locus of control. But again, what it does, it really depends on the individual as well. That's what's special about it as well. So, tell us about language transfer.
So as you talk about this now, it's so clear to me as a user of Language Transfer myself, which is how I came to you, I could tell that the person who was speaking and making comparisons through different languages was doing a lot more than just trying to teach a language. And what you' ve said, I think, really, really shed some light there. But so how did you get to Language Transfer as a concept? And what is Language Transfer for those of you who don't know what Language Transfer is?
So Language Transfer is just like, it' s just the place where I put my work, basically. Well, it is growing from that. So it' s a project for three language courses. There' s nine language courses and also a music course. And it' s also expanding as I' m trying to get more people creating thinking method courses, because I couldn' t possibly do it for all of the languages that people want. So I' m branching out into this platform that I' m creating for new course writers to write courses
in this method with my help. But yeah, pretty much the Language Transfer is a free education project. How is learning a language through Language Transfer different than say, learning a language like you learned when the university? We speak a lot about the base language. So if we' re teaching in English, we speak a lot about English and how English works. And we raise the language consciousness there.
But that doesn' t mean as people might think that, that we're focused heavily on translating that. So we' re not focused heavily on translating the base language, we're much more focused on translating thought, and understanding that thought is something you' re translating into your first language all the time. You don't think in language, although you can think in language.
So we do think in language; it doesn't mean thought is language, you know, thought is something we translate into language. So like seeing such a heavy focus on English, when you start a course, it might, it' s kind of camouflage what' s actually going on. But the focus is much more on on your thoughts. And can you describe sort of the method of language transfer, or the thinking method, I guess you call it?
The easiest way to summarize it would probably be that section in the book, which is 10 things we do in the thinking method, which show 10 key points, I can just list them, I' m not sure if they' ll make a lot of sense by themselves.
But we inhabit the learner's mental theater, you have a mind in your own mind, which is the learner's mind; extreme empathy, let's say, we teach empathy; we teach everything one thought at a time so that's teaching things one thought at a time not one thing at a time maybe to produce one thing in language it's three thoughts you know so we're teaching everything one thought at a time but also everything that you need; we manage cognitive load and tension controls.
So there's just a focus on the experience, in the same way that there's a focus on artistic experiences. You know if you watch a movie, it' s not like action- packed the whole way through; there are the tension controls and the same for stand-up comedy and and the courses as an experience, as in a performance, are thought out in that way as well. We import knowledge, which basically means we don' t reinvent the wheel.
The most recent tagline of Language Transfer is learn a language as if you knew it already.' So this is about importing knowledge... Uh, we reframe; that means that we' re not tied to how languages have been traditionally explained and all of the courses have like unique explanations that don't appear anywhere else because it makes sense to reframe that language in that way, it offers more coherence than the traditional ways that have been used to explain it so we have that freedom to do that.
Number six is that we weave; so, we don' t learn things vertically presenting things vertically makes sense to the person that knows it all already.
So, if you want to know everything, if you want to list everything you know about Spanish, you'll put like hablo, habla, hablan, hablamos you know, vertical present tense conjugations all together; it doesn't make sense to teach them in that way, it makes sense to weave them with other elements of the language where the thoughts necessary to create them are the same or similar or contrasting.
I mean, you can have any different reasons for that, but you' re weaving rather than learning things vertically. We correct correctly, that means like every correction is a an opportunity and you need to be very plugged in and trying to find out what thought led to the problem and how mistakes part of the learning process. And we increase language and learning consciousness which is just another aim that runs through the course.
That's beautiful, and I have to tell you as an educator and somebody who's taught in higher ed in K-12 environments like that' s some of the best pedagogy that you could have so thank you for sharing that in that way and I guess that's something that you've developed over time into this thinking method as you call it. You said there's nine languages and language transfer right now how many do you actually of those do you speak or do you know I guess might be a way to say it?
Oh that's like my existence really makes us very two different things, don't they because I know Swahili because I know Swahili because I made I think possibly the most comprehensive Swahili course in the world but I've literally never had a conversation in Swahili . I've had a lot of conversations with Swahili speakers about Swahili, but it's not a language that I've ever had the opportunity to to use or make part of my life like I made that course; like living in the Asturian mountains.
Wait, hold on, so you' re telling me that you create courses for languages that you don't even know well? I know I know them, I don' t speak them, I guess that's the point.
So what that means is like, I could go to Kenya, I could go to Kenya tomorrow and get into survival mode and activate all of that and get conversational and fluent right, but what s in my brain is just leftovers from making that course so intensely, and I' m very, very particular about there not being errors right, so I' m always like hashing things out with native speakers and all that.
But languages that I' ve used in my life well, I mean, I' ve used them all here and there with a couple of exceptions, but those have been consistent with me have been like Spanish, English, and Greek, and Arabic. What do you think happens to our brain when we' re learning a new language like that? It depends how, so if you're learning it in this way, you're breaking a fourth wall because you're thinking about thought more than you likely ever have, so thinking about thought already you're
breaking a fourth wall. You' re understanding that you' re not your language which kind of allows you to take more control over that. But these are all secondary to the euphoria you' re experiencing as you' re getting dopamine rushes by making these new structures in your
brain, not through painful memorization but understanding and its coherence. So I never use authority to patch up holes in the weaving of the courses, which I feel like other methods that have the same question and answer approach often do. I want you to accompany yourself throughout that whole journey for it all to make sense. And when you make sense of the sentences, basically you're just elated. A lot of people just a huge boost in esteem and just happiness you know and
it feels exaggerated for a language course but you get all these messages saying like this has changed my life and a lot and it's just like, if I tell people this it really sounds like I'm making it up, but of course if you haven't had that experience your brain is just on fire when you start learning this quickly and solidly because of course as you know like you do 15 minutes and you go oh I've learned all of this stuff, I can say.
But then the longer term stuff as that goes on, your brain is doing, benefiting more from all of that, I think it does anyway, but it becomes more conscious the that fourth wall breaking that' s going on. I think you can become forever more conscious of that, but again, it depends on the individual, and we're not all built, and we don't need to all like break that fourth wall in the same way.
It becomes more and more pressing as I say, as our culture becomes increasingly unhealthy, but it's a very individual thing, like how how far down the rabbit hole you go, in that senseYou just talked about the call-and- response method or how that works. Could you actually explain that to somebody who hasn' t heard of Language Transfer before?
So it's an audio in which I' m teaching another student who is a real student, although a lot of people doubt it and they doubt it because it' s edited of course they' re never as genius as they seem on the audio, I do mention that in the first track but people forget it.
So basically I'm teaching a student in real-time like I say it's an edited experience; every time I ask them a question you pause the audio and you think it through and you answer, and that question is always you know producing something in the new language – and that' s all you have to do and the rest of how I'm tying all of that together in wonderfully complicated ways, the only complication for me is that they should be really simple because you know the courses are
so easy to take because all of that complication has already been had behind the scenes, which is why you're learning this language in this really peculiar order rather than in a vertical order, but it all clicks together in a much better way. So it' s just basically a ride you get on, that you have to be very present for, you have to be focused and willing to think. It's not something you should have on in the background, its something that you should have your full focus.
But with 10 minutes of learning time, just with 10 minutes, you can really achieve a lot and like complete Spanish for example, that's I think it's 14 and a half hours. So with 15 minutes a day, that's three months. With half an hour a day, that' s six weeks. And that' s complete. Sorry, I'll stop now. So approximately, do you have an idea how many people have are using Language Transfer or have used it? I have no idea, like between the two apps, there' s over a million downloads.
The app it's been about five years, I think. I don't know how long that has been up, but the courses have been online for a lot longer. Like I really have no idea because also like they were on torrents and people published them illegally. So, you've created this method and, oh, you know, for sure that over a million people have downloaded these videos that' s really phenomenal! And this is just something that' s open and free.
I don't have to go pay some corporation so much money per month to have access to it. You don' t even have to give me an email address – or sign up or do any of that rubbish, that's it! I really like that detail, to be honest. Like, you just go on a website and it' s like you' re opening a Windows file or something you know? It' s like just there. I love that, that's that's a beautiful analogy, love that, It confuses people.
So how do you if somebody says to you, 'Oh well, I'm, you know, I don' t, I don' t want to name other another language learning method but if somebody says, ' Well, I' ve used such and such what is so different about language learning transfer? How? What' s the kind of simple answer you would give them? Simple answer is a lot of thought goes into language transfer; everything else is just a lot of graphic design goes into it.
Recently, I know, that you've created a course on music as a subject, so you have these nine language learning courses, but now you' ve created music. So how does that fit within it, is it that music is like another language or what what what prompted you to even delve into this area of creating music as one of your as one of your uh subjects?
I wanted to do something that wasn't language is to show that the method works for things that aren' t languages, especially because the courses are so simple to take, people arrive to conclusions about like what the method is like. It's cognates you know because often we start with cognates. So you know there' s a lot of simplifications people make that doesn't help me spread the method and get new people writing. I really need to understand what' s going on.
Yeah, it does have some elements it shares with language, but it' s not the point I' m making, which I know I know it's easy to construe that right, but I didn't mean to make the point that music is a language by includingH ow should we think about it if it' s not just necessarily like another language? Well, that's all described in the intro.
Something I like to say lately is that music is like synesthesia,' right, synesthesia - I might be pronouncing that wrong, but it's like you know when people smell colors and stuff like that, and all of these senses that we have be it tastes to be emotions, it's all maths really, it's all maths. It all comes down to like vibrations and frequencies and basically the same stuff that music is made out of, and tonality is just one of the most mind-blowing and spiritual things like to study.
But at the same time it's all maths, so like very demonstrable and it lends itself very well to the question and answer approach, you know, where I m like getting people to work out frequencies, half and double numbers, and stuff like that. And yeah, it was an experimental course, it does confess that in the intro as well, but I'm really excited about it; it's something I want to continue with, hopefully doing like music workshops live and developing it like that for real contact and tweak
it and get other people's input. Because the study of music really is, it really is overarching in the same, in a similar way, that languages are. When you study a language, you don't just study a language, you study everything, because language, you know, you talk about everything. And in the same way when you study thw maths of harmony, you' re studying chemistry and physics and and reality and radio waves and wireless charging and the soul.
Love that so, you have worked on these courses, the nine courses, the language courses plus music and now you're trying to get other people to adopt or learn this method and get more people interested in actually creating these kinds of language courses in their own languages, so native speakers. How do you do that? What has that been like?
I mean at this stage it's more of an overlap with my personal life, you know, like now I would do some workshops in London sometime soon because personally I m really motivated at the moment to get into high schools and and give workshops, and motivate kids and other lessons, especially because I' m really connected to that version of myself, and know that I could have really done with something like this. But of course when I studied I needed to get as much teaching in as possible.
Now when I write a course I have like enough internal students in my head; I know exactly - at this point, forty percent of people will react like this, twenty percent will react like that, and Oh that' s fascinating fascinating Y ou know but there was a there was a lot of hours for that so I was at some points I was just
constantly giving workshops to test the material. A nd also, I could collect donations afterwards which means I could like be more focused on writing and sustain myself less with private classes which was really important for me because they' re like intense situations where like if i've two private
classes in a day i can' t do much else. Mostly, it was just material testing and wanting to connect with with people and what have you and then of course there were like more specific situations like in Cyprus where we have a division and they're, like Greek and Turkish workshops take on a whole different significance. Could you actually talk about some of that work that you did in Cyprus?
Was that some of the first actual language transfer courses that you were creating was based on your work in Cyprus? It was the resurrection of language transfer because language transfer really was just going to be English for Spanish speakers. It was kind of my parting gift to the Spanish- speaking world when I was just like sick of living on the moon as I said in Argentina and just like needed a break from everything Argentine. I don' t feel bad about saying that because every
Argentine I've ever met feels the same. And that was that was kind of like my parting gift to Argentina, so to speak. And then I went to Cyprus and was like reconnecting with that part of me. And then it was just like, ' Oh, what I did is relevant here, I guess I should do more of that.' You know, because I' m always I was always looking for something social in work rights, right? I did like NGO work and volunteer work, and all of that.
I was always looking to be motivated by something other than money. So when I went to Cyprus, I didn' t know what that was going to be. All of this course stuff was so intense and it generates a lot of tension in me, too, to create it, so I wasn't thinking about continuing with that, but when I saw the value of it in Cyprus then that really motivated me so I had to learn Turkish and Greek because I didn't know them well. Tell me what do you mean about the value? What did you mean?
What was the value that you saw? Because, of course, you have a divided island and so yeah, for listeners that don't know anything about Cyprus, why would you? Uh it' s a tiny little island in the eastern Mediterranean that Since 1974, Cyprus has been divided.
You know it was always a multicultural island, but in that period people had to choose basically if there were Greek or Turkish Cypriots – they created this bicommunal war which was like fictitious... uh, it' s very complicated story, but basically, the Turkish Cypriots had to go north and the Greek Cypriots had to go south, and like today, to cross, you get your passport out and whatever, and it's a very silly situation.
Like if I talk about it's so absurd when you' re not in Cyprus – you go, okay... So how do I explain this? Northern Cyprus is the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, but it's only recognized by Turkey. This all of Cyprus is considered one country, and it's in the EU, but the Cyprus government doesn't exercise effective control over the north and, a lot of like people my age before they could cross like they grew up imagining like Mordor on
the other side, they tell me you know. It was different for me because I grew up in London with Greek and Turkish Cypriots in my school so we had a different experience of in the diaspora of what was the war and division and all of that right. W e saw each other also in a very international context where we could see that we were the same rather than imagining somebody on the other side of the wall that is like, totally different.
Anyway, so I was making Greek and Turkish workshops in the buffer zone often, like, in that zone where the two sides and people were coming from both sides, you know. For some people, it was a way to connect, in a way to make friends, where they were already kind of they'd already moved themselves away from all of this hate the other indoctrination, or their parents had you know.
And for other people, it was the workshop that did that for them, like some friends dragged them along and they' re like, ' Okay, all right.' And then you know, they wrote to me afterwards explaining how... okay, I' m like, okay,
I'm not hateful; I can go. But when I internalized it and I made it mine, talking about the language right and building things in Turkish, and etc., etc. then I realized like how much bitterness and hatred I had because it turned into love something like that was written to me.
And uh yeah like a hundred percent like I know exactly what that feeling is; it's amazing how xenophobia can turn into xenophilia, you know, and if it wasn't so politicized in a way to make people feel terrible about themselves, about something that is just like a psychological response, xenophobia as in the fear of the unknown, the stranger.
I don' t think people should be punished because their brains react like that; it's one of these things that we have to educate ourselves to be human, right? Which is oh my brain does that because it's come from millions of years of conquests and whatever. B ut I live in a multicultural society, maybe I can learn that guy's language so i feel
less like this. That's how you deal with racism and this not not the the pointing that you know that is very common nowadays, just trying to point that whatever is considered not only racist but not anti-racist that's not the way we deal with these things. So through this you were basically I think teaching
Greek-Cypriots Turkish and Turkish-Cypriots Greek, and from this you said that Language Transfer was resurrected. What do you mean by that? Y ou then started to kind of codify it and put up the files so people could use them or?
Resurrected in the sense that it was just meant for English for Spanish speakers, so you know that was all it was going to be and then it was just like, oh no, okay, so resurrected in that sense, like, okay, just more courses on that page, I'd have to make an English version you know because the first the first page was just in Spanish. So then at this point you have Turkish, Greek and Arabic, and then how did you expand to those other languages?
Yeah there was a lot of bouncing around there because I did the English course first but I deleted that one and i made a new one i made the Greek course and I deleted that one i made a new one and i made the first Spanish and I also deleted that. But yeah for the other languages, A rabic was like a personal interest and i spent time in Egypt worked a little bit in
Egypt. I love Semitic languages, the way they work it's fascinating, so I was like, definitely want under my belt, so I went to live in Egypt for a while, and then I did that. Some of the languages were voted by the usership. Swahili was commissioned, I had an option for commissioning which I took down after Swahili, I was like, not doing that again. Um, and that was commissioned by an NGO that needed it.
Talk to me a little bit about this idea you have for how you can't just have these free and open courses but how you're hoping that others could take this sort of platform and approach and create other languages or subjects. Basically I don't want people to come and help me, that's not what I' m asking for; what I'm doing is I' m offering my help to help other people that see this and go this is amazing.' I want to
be that guy. If that' s you, I will help you be that guy like I. e. me right, but I' m not asking for help so because when people think I' m asking for help they offer their charity and they don' t follow through on it and it's very damaging to me and my project, you know. So what I' m offering is my help that if you think this is the best thing in the world and you also see oh okay, you know. I don' t want to be employed by somebody; I don' t want to be institutionalized in my thought.
I need to be free. I could live from this. This could give me the freedom I need teaching this course that this guy helps me create, and also make famous. Then you can live from teaching that course, so it's a collaboration. I' m just making the infrastructure in case the right people come along, and I' m just I'm always trying to tweak it, so you know, like, communicate in a different way.
My communication at the beginning was much more loving and open, and, and I just got too many time-wasters. Then, I got much more harsh, and then anybody that is actually serious was too nervous that they they would do things wrong and didn' t get in touch. And then so the platform has been a really good balance; it' s just like you do it or you don' t. But, like, all of our communication is public, it goes here.
So I've been setting up this infrastructure first with the guidebook, then with the platform, and now with roundtable sessions, which is such an important addition. So, this is a new idea that came to me when I was rewriting a bit of the guidebook to reflect the platform.
Which is instead of doing the work of my own understanding on a new language when I' m working with a new writer; instead of like figuring that out along the way with the new writer, doing that first for as many languages as I can. Imagine I sit around a table and I'm with Japanese native speakers and linguists and what have you, and my job there is to dissect the grammar and talk about ways it would make sense to teach it.
So it's very similar to what I do at the beginning of a course, only I' m not going to follow through and write the course. Thats the job of the native speaker with my help to know which is a sensible, sustainable way of continuing a project, rather than me just like mashing up my brain twice a year with different languages like as I was doing my course. So if it's round-table sessions, I can do that continually.
Like, it' s super exciting for me; it' s super easy for me; it' s very philosophical and spiritual for me when I look at a way like a language does reality, you know? And it's totally enjoyable, and I don' t have all of that terror of being trapped with headphones and my own voice and all of the doubt in the world because I' m teaching a language that I can' t rely on my own speaker sense to correct.
What a gift, honestly, Michalis, that you have given us, given to the world of language learning and how we think about culture and change, and how we fix some of these seemingly intractable problems in our world that are so much based on as you said xenophobia, you know being afraid of of somebody who's not like you, being afraid of the stranger.
I just think it' s an extraordinary gift that you' ve given the world; thank you for that and I m hoping when people people learn and hear about this work that you' re doing now around creating the infrastructure for this, for them to do that themselves. And you are here as a as a teacher and a guide and a mentor to help them do that themselves. I' m rooting for you; I' m really hoping that's something that takes off. How many languages are there in the world?
That' s not the question the question is how many language combinations are there in the world, because if you teach Russian to a Spanish speaker it' s not going to be the same to a Japanese speaker. So, yeah, like this is this is the plan for it to go on forever by itself, you know I' m trying to like leave a base of work there so I can like happily die somewhere at some point and it will continue. Thank you so much for joining us today, Michalis, it's truly been a pleasure.
And to our listeners, you can learn your next language by visiting LanguageTransfer at languagetransfer. org. Thank you everybody for listening to the show this week; this has been Lisa Petrides with Educating to be Human. If you enjoy our show, please rate and review us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can access our show notes for links and information on our guests, and don' t forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. We' ll see you next time.
To Be Human, That Is Edu To Be Human. This Podcast Was Created By Lisa Petrides And Produced By Helene Theros. Educating To Be Human Is Recorded By Nathan Sherman And Edited By Ty Mayer.