Shaping Careers Through Experiences with Chris Parrish of Podium Education

in 2023. Chris's work has been featured in Fortune Magazine, Forbes, Inside Higher Ed and TechCrunch. Chris and podium education are based in Austin, Texas, Chris Parrish, welcome to Edtech Insiders.

podiums mission in a bit. But I applied to the University of Maryland, and they had this special program, they're rolling out the exact year that I was applying for college, called freshmen connection is basically for students that didn't have the academic chops to meet their traditional admissions criteria. They admitted us through this thing called freshman connection, which, thinking back on it, one of the only reasons I got into Maryland, super lucky

because of it. And also, you know, really appreciative of a school like Maryland thinking creatively about how to give students opportunities that, you know, maybe they didn't fit a traditional bill, but they saw something promising and our background, so they let 100 of us in. And that sort of you know, is the first trajectory changing moment in my life that

I was fortunate to have. And then while I was at Maryland, there was this little company starting in Lanham, Maryland, called to tour at the time, now known as to you, which I know you spent some time there as well, but sort of through a mutual friend stumbled into chip, who's the CEO of to you and he hired myself and my roommate, his name's Chris, as well as the eighth and ninth employees of that little company in Atlanta, Maryland called to use so I got my start early,

about two years eighth and ninth employee, I left for a little while to do some investment banking and consulting. But then I went back to to you, in 2015, as a Director of Strategy, did a couple of different things, and then eventually figured out that I like sales, I like partnerships, and ran partnerships for to you for a little while, before I decided to build something on my own and start podium here in Austin. That's

And within higher education, at least, we realized that there was a ton of innovation happening. But it was happening on what I would consider to be the fringes of higher ed. It was like, you know, master's degrees were put online, right? And then certificates, lifelong learning boot camps, right? All really

good things. But as we stepped back and looked at higher education back in 2018 2019, this was when the drumbeat around questioning the ROI of a four year degree was starting to pick up now it's clearly like a fever pitch. It is echo a day without hearing somebody talking about the ROI of a four year

degree. So that was starting to pick up and We realized that, you know, it was time for an education company to try to go into the, the mouth of the line, if you will, and work on that really protected undergraduate degree experience, which let's face it is really intimidating as you go in there and try to make an impact and work with faculty to adjust what goes into

that undergraduate degree. But we felt like it was really necessary given the pressures that universities are starting to face around the outcomes associated with college.

pillars. So things like doing research with a faculty member, right. If you do that, you end up doing pretty well upon graduation, landing a great internship and other one trajectory altering, right, doing something like study abroad is another thing that is trajectory altering. So we knew those opportunities existed. The problem that we saw with those is that none of those are built with scale and access in mind.

You look at something like study abroad, for instance, okay, so less than 2% of students in the US study abroad every year, it's 1.8%. The vast majority do not right. Internships, this might surprise some folks, but Gallup just released a survey this year, that for this graduating cohort of college students, 2023, only four out of 10 landed an internship. And if you look at any underrepresented group, let's pick on first generation college students. It's even less than that, right? It's about

27%. So we knew that these were amazing trajectory altering moments, but they hadn't really been designed with scale and access in mind. So that's really what we wanted to change. So the only thing that we've built so far at podium is called the Global Tech experience. And students get authentic work experience exposure to authentic work through companies like Intel, and the Grammys and charity water, they build some skills and in demand areas like data analytics, and digital

marketing. And they do that by working on projects with peers from all over the world. So we sort of hand formed these teams to ensure that you know, somebody from Georgetown is in a working group with a student from ASU and within our team, to make sure it's really cross culture. It's it's a unique mix of students. And that program, it runs as part of the undergraduate experience. Now at I think we have 56, universities, always for credit, that's a non negotiable for us.

So it'll typically run for six credits at the university. And we work with everybody from large r1 publics, like the University of North Carolina and the University of Arizona, to privates, like Georgetown, American University. But most of our partners are in these access oriented public institutions that tend to serve really diverse student body, who typically don't have access to sort of some of these really critical, experiential moments.

So these are institutions like the University of South Florida, University of North Texas, folks like that. That's

what podium does? How do you connect the experience that you just named this idea of, you know, hands on learning and experiential, practical, in demand skills, to the ROI question, I mean, seems like an easy connection to make. But I'd love to hear how you make that

connection. They know that people are looking for lucrative meaningful careers out of school, and they don't offer as many things as they might make that happen, those trajectory altering moments, how do you sort of help them understand this without making them defensive?

graduate. The problem is I saw, I think there's something like 2143, four year degree granting institutions in the US alone, and many of them have had this sort of similar trajectory in terms of costs and outcomes. So The generalised data points are that it's twice as expensive today to go to college as it was just 20 years ago. So over the last two decades, it's doubled in price. Over that same time period, the average entry level salary for new college grads has

only gone up by 19%. So I'm finding that there is a general acknowledgement that it is on the university, if they're going to charge more money to start thinking about, what are the outcomes that students are getting out of this, and they're not all economical, or I don't want to summarize the value of an undergraduate degree to just something that's economical. I mean, I personally believe there's still no better tool for social economic mobility than

getting a four year degree. I think any first generation student would attest to that. So there are societal benefits that come with a liberal education and a degree, which I acknowledge. But I do think given just the sheer cost that has gone up, you kind of have to acknowledge that, hey, we got to make sure students can pay this

off. So I find that even the most staunch defendants of a liberal education are open to the idea that some small component of the undergraduate degree can be dedicated to these hands on career tethered experiences, like what we've designed at the global tech

experience. So for faculty or administration that perhaps start as a little defensive to what we're proposing here, what I try to remind them of is for most of our partners, they offer six credits for this program that we've designed, and six out of the 120, right, if you did that math, it's less than 5%. So less than 5% of your undergraduate degree is this

career tethered piece. We're not asking students to, you know, change their major, or change their focus of study, it's just the components that go into the 120. I really believe if we just tweaked them slightly, where every student has one of these trajectory altering moments, like what we built that podium, I think by and large students are gonna be much better off. And that's sort of the pitch, if you will, to universities, that tends to resonate. Yeah,

it so important? And has that caused trouble in sort of spreading the word and getting more people on board because tying credit hours to something, it adds a cost to it in a sort of different way than other things do? Tell us about that credit discussion?

faculty. So understanding how to fit in with an institution and make sure that you're respectful of things like academic oversight. And the governance process that comes with credit is of paramount importance, something that's really important to us. The reason why I say credit is a non negotiable is back to our original founding story that I'd seen a lot of innovative ideas in higher ed, but they're kind of on the

fringes. The easiest thing, right, when we go and we pitch this to a university, like the knee jerk reaction is, oh, this is great. We can offer it as like a standalone, co curricular extracurricular thing that students can pay for. And what that causes, essentially, is that students have to pay out of pocket for this experience, which means that you're going to lose all those access points

that I mentioned before. So somewhere around 40% of students that do the global tech experience, are Pell eligible students. So being able to tie this to credit allows them to utilize the financial aid resources that they've put together as a high need student to make sure they have access to

this opportunity. In my opinion, if it was non credit on the side, all we're doing is doubling down between the haves and the have nots, and not creating that sort of great equalizer the way that we envision this experience could be. That's a really

that come with credit hours. But if you do tap into them, you've tapped into the entire system, including grants and scholarships, and all of these really important aspects of it on the other side. So it's very admirable. And I'm, you know, I think it's a really interesting stance. Tell us a little bit about the organizations on the other side of these global tech experience. You mentioned charity, water, the Grammys, I think Netflix is on here. Intel, these are big name companies.

Definitely places that a student would be very excited to work for and proud to be able to put on a resume when they graduate. How do you make these partnerships and what do they look like?

right? If everybody had data analytic skills, or coding skills, or digital marketing, would they be more employable. And that certainly holds true. So we still work within those verticals. But as we got deeper with our students did hundreds and hundreds, probably 1000s At this point, user interviews with the students that went through our program and other students and really started to pick apart? Where are some of the gaps in that college to career gap? What is the nature of the

gap? Maybe I should say, we realize that skills are just one component. The other component is experience, that for a lot of students, they do not have access to gaining early career experience. I mean, I feel like you see this with memes all the time, right entry level role. $53,000 a year, mandatory three years experience, I it's just like, it's kind of ridiculous, the way that a lot of these jobs

have been set up. And if you're a working adult, if you've got a family at home, if you're trying to put food on the table and work through college, how are you going to do an internship, right, it's not really something that is feasible for you. So with that in mind, we really started to look at our offering and saying, wait, wait, step back a second. This isn't just a skills gap. This is a competency

gap. That includes things like skills and things like early career experience, how do we productize that early career experience in a way that will benefit students more broadly than just the skills that they pick up. And once we started to think through that, we were just talking about Dan blue, who was formerly at to you now our VP of product at podium really helped us unlock that concept. We said, Okay, let's get employers involved. This is really what students want is access to early

career experience. So that's what led us to start to build these relationships with Intel and the Grammys and Charity Water Netflix's of the world, where to them, we say, this is not in replacement of your prestigious Internship Program, right? Each of them run really

strong internship programs. This is an ability for you to expand your impact, to get your mission in front of a really key demographic of undergraduate students do it at scale, right at all different kinds of universities, and ultimately, hopefully diversify that early talent pipeline, so that you're not just recruiting from the same seven target universities, six of which are from the ivy, and that, you know, whatever the flagship public in your neck of the woods is, that's really what

a lot of these prestigious employers do. And now all of a sudden, we can surface candidates to them that, let's say they're at the University of Texas at the Rio Grande Valley, one of our university partners where I can literally pick up a rock and throw it over to Mexico, most of those employees don't have the bandwidth or the resources to go to each one of those universities that I

mentioned. But we're a distribution model that allows them to have access to students from all different walks of life and all different backgrounds as a proxy by the university that they go to. So that's sort of been the nature of relationship is that we've really cultivated these partnerships with our enterprise partners, in a way that allows them to diversify their early talent pipeline. Yeah,

the needs. And you know, we know from many, many surveys at this point, and many, many articles that students core need, when they go to higher ed at almost any school in the country is career advancement, they are asked for it everywhere. And I think it's 80% plus of people say that's the main reason they're going to school at this point. So that's the coordinate

of the students. And then you have the sort of artificial barriers in the education space, like educators and employers, where everybody knows that people are going directly from colleges into employment. Yet these sort of old fashioned job fairs and interviews and internships and recruiting processes have always been unscalable. So the combination of sort of going right to the heart of the need, and then trying to scale feels like something that's really killer

combination. And you know, you're supporting 10,000 students in 2023. And I think the question I have, I'm sure some of our listeners have it as well is, how do you get 10,000 students these types of experiences? How do you actually scale it once you've created a global tech experience that's possible in different schools? Yes.

about how we scale it. So on the idea of internships, let me first start by saying I am a huge fan of internships, they are what I consider a trajectory changing moment, by and large, one of the problems that I think doesn't get talked about enough when it comes to internships, is that and I'll whisper this, most of them suck, right? Like, they're highly dictated by the type of employer that you get to work for, right? Not all internships are offered by Nike

or Netflix. Right? Right. So the employer that you're working for the role that you're going to be supporting as an intern, the types of projects you might get exposed to how interested your supervisor is, and actually helping you along. I mean, a lot of cases, interns get plugged on to supervisors, and they're like, oh, man, I have to make

something up for this. Like, they're highly, highly variable in terms of their quality within the internship, which, once again, like, I don't want to bash internships, because they are incredible. I wish there were more of them out there. But I do think it's worth acknowledging that there's a huge variability in the quality of the internship that you might receive. They're

capture that. So part of the way that we've done this is, as we've identified these project partners of ours, you know, we face this fork in the road at podium, we're like, okay, let's think about project based learning, right? Everybody has done some project based learning work in their undergraduate

curriculum. So how can we make this better, we had a decision to make should we work with, and I'm just painting in bright colors here, the mom and pop flower shop that desperately needs help with digital marketing? Or do we want to give students access to these iconic brands like Nike and Uber, where let's face it, they're probably not going to change their marketing strategy based on the feedback of undergraduate

students, right. And we decided to go the route of the iconic brands, but we wanted to do it in a way that was still really authentic for students. So each one of the projects in our program, the global tech experience, they are a real business challenge that the organization faces, there is no fake data. In the experience, we have found that the moment students sense that something is simulated, or fake, their stomachs turn, and they don't invest themselves the way they

would at a real internship. So they all have to be authentic problems the organization's face, they have to work with real dataset. Those are sort of our first principles. And then the way that we build the projects is worth acknowledging. So we actually fly our film crew on site to a place like Intel film and create the project from the point of view of a new intern or employee walking into that building, and wrestling with the problem the same way that any other employee at Intel

might wrestle with it. So what that looks like from a product standpoint is you know, there's an intro video where their students are putting context, we've come up with this really clever approach to a stakeholder meeting, where we film a live meeting from like, where the chair would be of an intern, and take advantage of the fact that it's recorded and allow our team to kind of freeze video, turn to the student online and say, did

you catch that? The VP of sustainability, Intel just told you the three most important metrics they're looking for in this project, write those down, because when we come back to them later this week, right, we want to make sure we hit those. So just little moments that no technology can allow us to take advantage of, to create an experience that once again, not a replacement for an internship. But there's certainly some pros

and cons here. One of the pros being that we can control this experience and make sure that students are picking up the critical parts of early career.

really, really cool. So I guess that the follow up question would be, you chose not to go with the mom and pop shops with local businesses with businesses that need help and might actually use the work in a substantial way. As a result, people are going through these really immersive, fascinating internships, but they're, I imagine many people are going through the same experience. So the work that they're producing is not necessarily being

implemented. How do those students then feature the work that they're doing as experience for potential employers down the line? Yes,

coding adventures. So once students choose that adventure, I should mention there's zero prereqs. So we welcome everybody, which is really important, especially for those students that don't come from a major that has a direct path to that first career. Doing this as a junior senior is gold, right? It allows them to be competitive on the job market, once students are in one of these adventures, there's two different types of projects we have, we have something called a skill builder

that everybody has to do. rising tide lifts all boats concept, you know, building skills from the ground up. And then we have spotlight opportunities where a student will get to choose from working with an NGO, or a technology company or a consumer products good company, they'll pick the one that's most interesting to them. But all of these are designed with no

gates. So if all 10,000 students want to do the project with Intel, we can deliver that, that's sort of the way that we've designed this is to make sure that we don't cap the project based work based on just

enrollment from students. So that's sort of the way that it's designed and like, the way that we do it at scale is that we're supporting all those students, we have a team of experienced architects on our side, that are holding students hand through the experience, there's 24/7 support on our platform, all the pieces that you would expect, given that we're serving students from around the world.

So all that is supported. And then I mentioned that the projects are sort of this asynchronous creation film from the perspective of a new intern. And then they come to a live lab twice a week that we support as well, where they get to interact with their peers, and then also

the employers. And then when they walk out of the program, the second part to your question, you didn't get micro credential badges and the skills and the industry tools they've built, skill sets in, those are pushed to their LinkedIn under their university brand. And then our employer partners are also generating internship project certificates that get pushed to the student's LinkedIn under licenses and certification

section. So these in particular, allow a student to take advantage of the brand equity of an Intel, for instance, since it's an Intel oriented internship project certificate, so those are really important, especially as they leverage this opportunity into a paid internship or full time job if they are nearing graduation.

enterprise partners. So that's the Netflix and Intel and Charity Water and pushing them all to LinkedIn makes a lot of sense to me, because LinkedIn is the public working face of the student. You know, one quick

question about that. I have in my experience in edtech, but also from reading papers about this, have realized that LinkedIn is actually a something that is not equitably, you know, shared, it's actually very few students from underrepresented backgrounds have LinkedIn profiles, especially early in life. It's one of these weird social networks that actually is, you know, skews towards a

higher socioeconomic class. So I would imagine that for some of these college age learners, this might be the first time they even make a LinkedIn profile. Have you seen some of that? Yeah, I'm

what we expect. You're like, man, you did this experience, you got all these skills, why wouldn't you display them? Right? And we found out for the exact reason that you're talking about that. For most of the students, they never even got the notification that they had to do this for their LinkedIn because they don't have a

LinkedIn account. So with that in mind, actually, this next term, the spring term is the first term where creating a LinkedIn is now an embedded part of the experience where as you're moving through, got to create the experience And then one thing that I'll mention I thought was really clever product design is that each week's worth of content in the global tech experience, we start by showing students what new bullets, they're going to be able to add to their LinkedIn

and their CV each week. So it's like before even do the hard work, let me show you what you're gonna be able to put on your CV, or your LinkedIn if you do invest. And that just little caret upfront has been really helpful to motivate students as well. Well,

So the idea on a weekly level, saying, by the end of this week, you're gonna be able to legitimately explain to the world that you know how to do these particular skills. I think

that's really powerful. It sounds like even beyond the skills and experience, there's almost this cultural rapper, the idea that, you know, a student from Rio Grande, you know, Texas, University of Texas at Rio Grande, I think I'm saying that right, you know, would may not have a LinkedIn profile, when they start this global tech experience, by the end, you they do have a LinkedIn profile, they do have certificates and skill

badges to put on it. And, you know, obviously, they're trying to head towards a degree or some kind of put on it as well. I would imagine, just that by itself gives them a much a big leg up on in the employment market. Yeah,

translator. You know, we're like, on the university side, they always say, We want students to have intercultural skills, intercultural skills, that is a phrase that I do not believe jumps off the page at very many 18 to 22 year old students, I'm not even quite sure that like, I really understand what it's an academic phrase that they use, right?

When I talk to employers, they say, of course, we want to hire students, Chris, that no industry tools, but we also want to hire students that are excited about working in diverse teams, and pumped to build products from users from all over the world. And I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Those are intercultural skills. That's what they're saying they just don't use that phrase, you know, so and then as, like a personal

project. For me, I mentioned before at the outset that I come from a rural area in the Poconos and understanding how to work across differences to work with people from different backgrounds, from different geographies, different religions, I mean, the backdrop of what's happening in the world is, is a perfect example, like, you've got to be comfortable in these groups, and also aware that we all view the world through our own cultural lens,

right? Like, you have to be aware of these things, in order to be effective teammate and certainly a leader in any sort of diverse work setting, which is almost every single one at this point. So I think a rapper maybe is a fair way to think about it. But every project that we've designed, has an inner cultural or global element to it, where we want students to understand that, hey, this, this data project that we've built with Intel, you're going to learn some great skills and

Tableau to solve for it. But you're also going to understand why bias exists in data, right? And really think through that data set before you start putting something in a visualization in Tableau, like those skills are just as integral in my opinion as the technical skills that students build. It's just the phrasing of it, I think, intercultural skills as a general aside, like they really need a rebranding campaign, because I don't know what to call it instead. But they are so important for

students to gather. And there's not always intentionality around it at universities,

programs. At the same time, it's just hard to sort of put your finger on exactly what it is compared to, yeah, technical tool, you need to use Tableau, or you need to know how to use, you know, GitHub, like that's so concrete compared to these abstract, you know, ways of thinking. But yes, they're hugely important. And it's really exciting to hear that you baked them in. It sounds like you're really thinking very carefully about the instructional design of these

experiences. I'm curious, you know, one of the things I've seen a lot in edtech, because my background is that you sometimes have to balance the sort of leaning into the instructional design, really making sure the experience is as you say, authentic. tickets. It's competency based, It's project based, it really has all the elements you need, it will make

somebody employable. And then also building it as a product that people understand that you can convince a university to buy into convince an employer to buy and to convince a student is worth doing. I'm curious how you balance those? I know that isn't a very abstract question, but it's a sort of close to my heart question. How do you balance the leaning into the instructional integrity? versus sort of simplifying it so that everybody can just quickly get their heads around it? Yes,

And I just want to acknowledge, like the fact that Georgetown, for instance, Georgetown was excited about the idea of having their students and working groups of students from UTRGV, University of North Texas, like, oftentimes like these, like classes of universities, like they don't want to mix right there. Um, Georgetown, 9% Admit rate, like, let's not give our students any opportunity that perhaps somebody at 100% Admit

rate school might have. And I do think it's one of the beautiful parts of this program design is that all of our champions across your university partners are excited about that thing. In particular, like, yes, let's get a student from Georgetown, or in a working group, with a student from the west coast and a student from South America. And like, that is part of the special sauce here. That was really, really hard to figure out how to do it had to be

honest. But once we did got the buy in of our partners, one of the things that I think is most exciting. So on the instructional design side of things, like we wanted to try to build a program that allowed for ultimate configuration for faculty out of university partners, right? If they want to change things, swap out modules, add things, they have the ability to do that. It's very important, right, from an from an academic oversight

standpoint. However, the more configuration that a university does, right, the less of that global nature, they're going to have. Just because by definition, like, if you want to add a bunch of extra stuff for your students, great, let's do it. But I can't add that for everybody else. And given that we have that, particularly fun math problem of getting 56 universities on a shared academic calendar, so that all their students are going through

this experience together. Like the more configuration we do, just the less global it's going to be. And for some universities, that's totally fine. Right? All good for others, they really want to utilize this for the intercultural and the global experience. At which point, you know, you want to do less customization than you might do if you're on the other end

problems. But, you know, it's really interesting, something I've heard you say many times in sort of different ways is this is really about breaking down barriers, right barriers between elite, you know, super selective universities and non selective universities, which is the vast majority of students in the country, barriers between employers and educators, barriers between, you know, internships, and official internships and sort of projects, I'd love to hear sort of how you see podiums role

going forward, let's, you know, fold this out over the next few years, if podium continues to grow the way it's been growing and have more and more and more universities and employers committing to this model of, you know, people should have meaningful experience and skills when they graduate from undergrad, what other barriers might break down? Like, how do you see this supporting this whole generation of students? And what might they do

differently? If they go through a podium, global tech experience?

ones covered, right. Step two, is can we give students experience that then they can showcase to prospective employers, and this innovation on the CO design aspect of these projects filmed in context on site at places like Intel, that allows students to earn that internship project certification? Right, check mark, right. feel pretty good about that. The last step is helping students land that job right? You complete the global tech experience. What more can podium do to get students their

butt in the seat? Have their dream job. So is that something like, guaranteeing that every student that completes the experience can land a paid externship, or internship? Is that a menu of options for students that, you know, there's this luxury good of an in person internship that this can lead to, there's a more accessible, fully online internship that this can lead to, I don't know exactly what it looks like,

right. But that's where my headspace is and most of our team's headspace is, is what happens after you complete the

global tech experience. As of right now, the way it works is like we hand a list of students to let's say, Intel, I like here all the students that completed the Intel project and Intel and their word, say, okay, these students, their resume goes to the top of the pile, for campus recruiting, which is great, like, don't get me wrong, I'm super happy with that, I think there's more we can do, especially when you think about some of the enterprise partners that maybe they don't have the

brand prestige of an Intel or Netflix or Nike, but they hire 1000s of new grads per year, right. And they struggle with getting the volume of candidates into their pipeline, I really think we can fill a unique need, given the scale that we're already at right now. And as you know, we're venture backed so you can expect us, you know, two to 3x for the foreseeable future on an annual basis. That's where I'm headed is like, what can we do to help close that final step

of the college career gap? We have skills, we have experience? How do we get the job? Yeah,

Because they put all these sort of, you know, programs online, and then have made a lot of different deals with different universities or employers to sort of accept that credit, even though it comes from a Google if they accept, you know, other employers that are less maybe you know, known or prestigious than Google will accept the google it sort of the Google digital marketing serve as meaningful and it feels like there's a maybe a little bit of

a parallel there. Do you see something like that?

career. Anyway, he was explaining this concept to me that I really latched on to that, if you're an employer hiring manager, and you look at a resume, here are the most important things they want to see is that top line to get you an interview, the number one most important thing is this is let's say, it's for a full time role, if you have done an internship at that specific organization. So if I'm a hiring manager at Dell, the first thing I want to see is that you are an

intern at Dell, right? If that is not there, the next thing they want to see is that you're an intern within their competitive space, right within their industry. So if I'm a hiring manager at Dell, and I see that you're an intern at IBM, or Oracle, Oh, interesting.

So I think very similar concept that you're talking about with Google and how we think about things is let's spread ourselves out and get enterprise partners with some of the best industries so that even if students that do the Intel project, don't go on to work at Intel, when they have that certification on their resume, and they're applying to other jobs at companies similar to Intel, it triggers right, that second order of, okay, this

is the strong candidate. And that is like a mental map is really helpful for me as we think through what other enterprise partners we might bring on. That

We're very low on time here. And I'm going to ask the final questions. We didn't get a chance to talk about AI. So we were at some point, we're gonna have to circle back around and talk about that. But I'd love to ask you the questions we end our interviews on, first off, what is an exciting trend that you see, from your perspective, at podium in the tech landscape that our listeners should keep an eye on?

large universities. I think that is an incredible step forward, and will be wind at the back of ad tech companies that are trying to close this college to career gap for students.

So they're going to put the sensational headlines for faculty on the front page, like I think, Chronicles good example of that. There's really good stuff underneath it, especially if you're an edtech. But you just kind of dig a little bit sometimes. And then the other one I would mention is I love Matt towers weekly newsletter as well. So that one's really good. Either of those two things you can't go wrong with Slingo are following Matthew towers newsletters,

There's a lot of really cool stuff in there. You just got to sort of know what section to look in. Fantastic. Well, Chris parish, CEO of podium education. This has been a blast. Thanks so much for being here with us on Ed Tech insiders.