Welcome to Season Two of edtech insiders, where we talk to the most interesting thought leaders, founders, entrepreneurs, educators, and investors, driving the future of education technology. I'm your host, Alex Sarlin. An edtech veteran with over 10 years of experience at top edtech company is the CEO and founder of D fourteen.ai. And the stem training
organization, Sirius labs. D 14. Ai provides an AI driven software platform for healthcare clinics, gyms and logistics companies to optimize their workforce and manage business operations in an easy, secure and affordable way. Before launching the 14 ai into Dubai's burgeoning tech startup scene. Akin was a software developer, a systems analyst, a lecturer in computer and software engineering departments, a project manager and the youngest director of international tech
companies. Melda Akin graduated with a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering and a master's in intelligent engineering systems focusing on artificial intelligence. She's the first woman in the world to organize and conduct AI and machine learning training for women in the MENA region, collaborating with the cyber defense and Ministry of Communications and Information Technology of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I can has won many awards for her work in the Middle East and North
Africa. She was selected among 200 candidates as one of the eight best female founded startups in the MENA region by Standard Chartered Bank. She was a new entrepreneur of the year 2020 by Golf capital, one of the top 10 women behind Middle Eastern Tech brands by Forbes Middle East in both 2021 and 2022. And is one of the seven best women in tech entrepreneurship in Turkey by Microsoft. Finally, Melda Akin serves as a mentor for the United Nations and for the UAE is nama women advancement
organization. Melda Akin, Welcome to EdTech. Insiders.
Thank you very much. Nice to be here.
It's really nice to have you here. You have such an interesting story in edtech, you've been a developer, a systems analyst, and you're an AI entrepreneur who provides AI education and STEM education to women in the Middle East and North Africa region, you have won all sorts of awards for your entrepreneurship. Tell us a little bit about your background, what brought you into ad tech, what brought you into AI?
So that's actually the one of the favorite questions that I mainly get it. So my journey in tech industry, actually, it started very early ages. So at the age of 10, my father, and my uncles, they just supported me, and they bought me a computer. And it was actually 26 years ago. I'm 36 right now. And my father told me that this is the future, you should learn it. So that was the first time you know, I didn't have any friends who has a social media account and forget the social
media, and email. So I remember my first email, I sent it to my another email. And I was opening up the inbox and sending an email imagine that kind of thing. So ah, you know, the 10. And I start wondering how the computer works, how the internet works, and why do we need who made it. So that's curiosity, helped me to learn about the actual the scientist, that the computer scientists how they do
it. And after that, how to code, how to understand you know what to do with the hardware, of course, I broke many computer pieces before I learning. And after 12 years old, I started coding. So that's the age actually, I had decided to study computer engineering. Then I studied Computer Engineering, and then my master degree in intelligent engineering systems and AI track, where I also serve as a research and teaching assistant, again, software and computer engineering
departments. So then, I work as a software developer, system analyst, software support developers, project manager, product manager, system architect, and I realized that that was interesting. My friends, they were calling me at the college always social butterfly and social engineer. That was a fun moment. But after that, we realized that, you know, being social in a tech world actually it helps a lot.
Because you're able to talk with clients able to understand a new iPhone, you make jokes, and then they like you, and then you sign more contracts and it's, you know, the changes. So afterwards, my previous company, they promoted me as director and management board member afterwards. I I set up my own company, it was a digital transformation consultancy. And that's my second company, the 14th. That AI is specialized in
scheduling and optimization. We touch base medical industry, logistic industry work with Saudi Arabia government, and some governments organization in Europe as well. And afterwards, since I know the pain, and I know the joy as a female tech, and also the female tech intrapreneur, I decided to set it up and launch series labs that AI,
it's such an interesting story you are in on the very ground floor of computing, that, you know, having a computer being able to start coding at 12 years old, and really grow that skill set and try it out in all these different roles, and then pass it on and bring it to other women, especially in the Middle East is just incredible. I want to ask you, you mentioned D 14, that's dimension 14, and has several different sort of product ID products, all of which are AI specific in
different capacities. You mentioned, optimizing scheduling for enterprises with shifted, you have a product called D health, which is for personalized patient education, which is really interesting. And then, as you mentioned, your other company, Sirius Labs, which we'll talk about a lot today helps people gain skills through boot camps and AI learning applications in the Middle East Turkey, North
Africa. Amazing. I want to start actually by asking about D health because this is something we don't talk about that much in the podcast, but it's really interesting. So D health gives healthcare organizations the ability to provide personalized patient education. So first off, I'd love you to explain to our listeners, you know, what is patient education? That's an interesting side of edtech. And then how do you personalize it with the health?
Yeah, actually, it's, again, the reason of my personal journey. And what happens, I want to do that too, because, you know, I was hitting the gym everyday in the morning, and I had a personal trainer, and she was pushing me mother do it more more. And I was telling her, I feel pain, and I feel electricity. And then of course, I had an injury on my knee. So I went to the doctor. And it was a beautiful hospital. And you know, we are actually in Dubai and the hospitals are like
hotels. So I was talking to him. And he gave me two a4 paper. And he said that, you know, and you're going to do number 456. And you can skip seven and eight. And it should be you know, that's well on 13. So I had looked at it on the a4 paper. And I started thinking about my insurance payment, and then the consultation fee. And the you know, the hour that I spend on it, was it for receiving a for paper? Actually, no. And I asked him, you know, we are living in 2022 Why don't
we have a digital? And he said that? Yes, we have also the digital version. Okay, how I can use it. He said, Okay, we can send you an email, I told him you know that the latest email that I would expect to receive it was 20 years ago. And then he said that we can send through WhatsApp. But on WhatsApp, these are this, you know the this synchronized communication, right? So no one gonna get in on YouTube or normal and look at
this a4 papers or WhatsApp. And what happens afterwards, we go back for the control and after so did you do it? And I want to say yes, but I actually I didn't do and I say yes, but you understand from my face, it's you know? So I said, Okay, what if we have a system that actually has a digital library of all this exercises, what to do have to do? Less Likely, you know, the small shots for now, even watching a 10 minute video
is a lot. So we just want like, you know, the so quick, okay, give it to me give it to me in two minutes, 30 minutes, I want to learn everything I want to understand and everything. So we are less patient. And I said okay, these are the libraries, and the people they might be you know, the active not active sporting, or the age difference times that I can dedicate, maybe, you know, I can do 10 minutes, but you can do 20 minutes. And that will be the
order to doing this. And what is the link between patient and doctor that doctor actually can see what I am doing and how I feel and what the community is doing. So since you know the all of us need this education, this is actually the call that's patient education. And we all together generate a great data sets that can also be helpful for the next generation of the
patients. So there is a disconnection so we said okay, we're going to have a platform that will be link between healthcare providers and patients and allowing them to seamless and thrive aspirants communication. And as a patient, I will get reminder, I don't need to, you know, the search a little game, try to remember, and I will be following up this exercise or the, you know, the information list. So that's the idea. In a nutshell.
It's amazing, you know, it's obviously an overlap between health tech and Ed Tech. But in the way you describe it, I also see some interesting parallels from fitness. Because fitness apps do some similar things, they have short videos that can be reordered, and the data can be stored. The idea of, you know, personalized patient education, being able to create data that leads to personalized medicine or leads to, you know, better understanding is such a good
idea. I've read about some of the very low, low rates of adherence to people's medical prescriptions, people say, you know, doctors say, go do this, take this pill, then do this stretch to do this exercise. And people very rarely do. They never do it. And I've had those papers handed to me many times. So it's, I think it's a really amazing idea. And I love how it combines what we know about asynchronous education technology, that's also video based short videos, data, and
health. Let me dive a little bit deeper into the health section. Because there's something you know, in designing this T health app, which you basically, if I haven't, right, it's b2b, right? You give this to other medical care providers that they can then build personalized education for their patients. Is that right?
Yes, we are not the content provider. Because we believe, you know, there are amazing institution, amazing doctors, they are able to create the content, what we see, since we are in the you know, the living at the age of target age of AI, so many people, they you know, sometimes they struggle. One is, you know, is it really AI? Or is it the software development? And the second, am I using the right top notch technology or no? And the
fourth, is it secure enough? Is it you know, GDPR oriented, and fifth, how, you know, they can build this, it's not like, you know, the one shot development, it's a continuous process, which actually requires a lot of financial investment for the financial right team. So, as we said, we are not doctors, we are not content providers, because we know that there are amazing organization and wonderful people, they do amazing job. So
we leave this area to them. So if these organizations, they want to develop the software or the mobile app or AI, they need AI expertise, you know, the right tools, right technology, right steam, so it's cost a lot. So we said, You know what, this is our expertise, let's make this as a white label application, provide them. So once they have, they are coloring, their branding, they are content, just using our technology, it will be the licensing for them.
That makes a ton of sense. It's really so interesting. And I see a lot of parallels between that. And some of the ad tech providers who work with universities say and the universities provide the content, but the platform is maintained, and you know, run by an edtech company, I think there's a lot of similarity
there. You know, as you design this app, and you know, this the health delivery system for medicine, one of the reasons healthcare is growing so fast all over the world, both in Middle East and North Africa and in the US and in Europe, is that the population of the world is aging very quickly. I'm curious about because you must have to think about older learners or older patients. In this case, when you're designing this app.
That's a rare use case in ad tech, I'd love to hear how you think about developing and how you developed eHealth keeping these older learners as a core demographic of your app.
Yeah, actually, there are a lot of segments right. So, first of all the systems there should be one user persona set. So never you know the AI can work and then decide on its own. So, there is a you know, the user sets and this is my user persona and this content would be good for it and this
contract would be good. So, this is a basic software, when there is a form that there is an AI comes comparing you know the collect, who is looking for what, how many times they clicked, what time they are opening, are they happy with it or not happy with it, and comparing the same user segment what are others do and learning and generating new content across to the you know, the AI side this is you know, the where we want to go? So some organization they want to use
that area. Some organizations say they say we have a static process, and we want to do this one without an AI which is also fine because this is solely a minor stick. It's just decision. So some people you know, they are thinking okay, let's say this wellness because once we say health is very strong word. It's highly right collated wireless is easy to navigate and easy to make it. That's why you know, not, it's not, you know, the focusing on like cancer or, you know, this drastic sickness.
But the supportive improvement cases might be, you know, the more logical makes more sense for us. That's why we are focusing on this, and we are approaching that kind of organizations.
Can you tell us more about the different segments of patients that use this app? Because it's just such an interesting set of learners? You know, we talk in edtech, about having different types of learners. But when your learner's are patients, it's just a really different take. I'd love to hear a little bit about it.
Yeah, I mean, for example, we keep talking about the generations, right. And you know, the kids, the cousins, or the, you know, the very young ones, they are able to use this tablets and mobiles. So I have a niece, and he's nearly two years old, but the way that he used the mobile phone is unbelievably
amazing. Yeah. So this, you know, that this segment, actually, they have an access to literally everything, and they are not patient, they just scroll it, you know, and what our parents are grandmothers, grandfathers, they have time, they are patient, they like to look more they like to, you know, to look at it. So that kind of you know, that the segments that needs to be taken
into account. So who doesn't know, you know, or maybe who has an eye problem, or, you know, most of the grandparents or older people, elderly, they are not able to read, but they're able to, you know, to see the colors and other movements, or maybe the you know, the only the voice. So these kinds of things that can be very, very easily link.
And it makes a lot of sense is you have to have an interface that adapts to different types of users. And yeah, it's amazing how adept the young people and especially very young people are using technology and video technology, insane. Amazing. So let's talk a little bit about Serious Labs. It is such an amazing company.
It's designed for females in the Middle East, it's not entirely female learners, but primarily for females STEM based community, it combines boot camps and an AI powered app, protect training and mentoring. Tell us a little bit about you know, you give a quick overview about how serious came about because you said you had this amazing experience learning about stem from a young age and it really changed your life,
obviously. But tell us about how you decided to start this and give back to other people.
Actually, that was my dream since the high school. So it was always you know, I want to do it at the university, I want to do it, but you know, you want to do something, but you don't know how to do it. So that was the ages. And when I you know, the before setting up the 14 that AI I talked to maybe
more than 100 people. And I received more than 100 nose maybe and more people were saying that okay, but this is a philanthropy Why are doing this, you have such a, you know, the amazing skill set, you are actually the you know, the higher honor to software engineer, you have, you know, the many awards, why are you doing this, but we all know, whatever comes from our heart, it's always makes better, we become you know, the more successful because our psychology is better, we can
make more money, and then the main things. And that time, you know, when I talked, I was actually I wanted to raise for this idea, as was five years ago. Of course, you know that there are things that I'm learning along the way. It's always you know, the better. It's never like on the book. So that time, okay, the market is smaller than how it would be. I said, You know what, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one. And surprisingly, the woman ratio
that studies stem. Now the engineering is that highest in the Middle East compared to the world. So it's insane in the UAE it's super high. Exactly. And it's very surprising. And also the government's they support a lot, you know, the financially and also the mentoring and the projects. So it's, it's, you know, quite big. So what I have done, when I started mentoring people, I always, you know, the mentoring, and I realized that I spend a lot of time and I enjoy this people are so happy, they
will keep asking. And it's it's amazing, but of course it needs capital on the first side. So the 14 eyes the last year and the producer was very, very busy. Then after that, I said, You know what, that's the time that I had the right capital, I had the right capacity and we checked and you know, the market needs that will be amazing. So seeing these labs, says one thing, we want to see more females in tech industry hands on, and how do we get there? So, number one mentee and mentor
source. So there are, you know, the absolute the great programs there. But the need is so high and demand is so high and the supply is not able to match. And the second is, it is so normal that students, they don't feel confident to connect and Chase, the people, even like the sales in the business world. It's just about follow up. And the idea is, okay, how we can bring mentors who really studied tech and stem, and how they break the barrier. And who wants to serve
back, no ego and nothing. And we want to see, you know, the more people so that's why there is a selection process of mentors as well. So they need to bring two or three references as a mentee as a mentor, and their work and the project that will be you know, the good match. The second is, since we want more tech intrapreneurs. In the tech world, we are teaching tech biotech. So one mobile app on this mobile app, two things.
One, we have, you know, the amazing Google, but imagine like, you know, if you have a headache, realize like I have a headache on Google what I should take or what's happening, and we're bombarded with a lot of needs, or you might be you know, you're gonna die soon, you have a very bad headache, where to start and have to follow. That's so important. And now. So when it's when three people still think that AI is robots, it's no sense. So this actually, it's
quite big. So we're doing you know, the scheduling and operational research. Sometimes people say it's not either you're not doing an AI, it's just a software development, or it's a math. And the answer I gave them, please get to that AI book and open the chapter six you're gonna see is a massive area that talks about constraint
programming. And then the you know, universities there is a departments under AI that's trying to teach not teach actually try to teach because it's very complex, to have more people to work on this field. So that's the reason. The other one will be one page where they can get, you know, the certification or any, you know, the license
number that they can follow. And the free version is, instead of looking into here and there, and you know, the looking from the, you know, on the YouTube, and that closing, just one free, you know, learning assistant they can follow is very basic, very simple, but just one line that they can follow. Third is bootcamps, who has potential who is motivated, who is dedicated and ready to do whatever it
takes. So it's not an easy journey, I always there, but there is, yes, financial difficulty, and many people in this world, comparing to this inflation and wars and what's happening all around the world. It's not easy to you know, the InVEST high education. So the idea is, okay, there are females, over the amazing, motivated, dedicated and high potential, they just need a little bit push, and mentoring, and they will be okay. On the
other side of the table. The companies, they said, who they want to hire these people are the hiring, training and doing this, it's a lot of work. And a lot of time, actually, between this two part, the gap is not huge, it's not massive. So it can be actually close into three months. So the idea is training this females for three, helping
them to find a job. So we're seeing the companies, once they land the job, they're gonna pay back the community, so we can, you know, continue to develop and improve the ecosystem.
There's so much interesting stuff to unpack in that answer. It's so interesting, you're mentioning that it's a combination of the sort of human relationships, the mentor mentee relationship, and you vet your mentors very carefully to make sure that they can really support students and check their references and everything, and AI based learning assistants that can support in a one on one way. And that is such a powerful
combination. There's also online content, there's certificates, there's projects, there's boot camps, but I particularly like that combination of you know, there's a human touch more than to touch a human relationship, deep relationship with somebody helping you through all the bumps on your journey to become a technical professional, and having cutting edge tech and AI to fill in any gaps to answer any questions to structure
information for you. You know, one of the things I love about edtech is that you have people who as you said, you are an AI entrepreneur, you don't have to do ad tech, you don't have to do philanthropic style projects, but you want to you want to do them because they're great for the The world and you're raising the whole community, and you have the expertise to do it in a really sophisticated way. It's
really amazing. Can you just talk a little bit more about this sort of day in the life of what a learner might look like? How it combines that sort of mentoring human relationship with the AI and the sort of course content?
Yes. So the one side is, you know, there will be the mentee mentor matching. So, there are many, you know, the students, they don't know what to do, which is totally okay. So that's fine. And to help them to, you know, the match them on their time and talking, you know, the opening up the day of ideas, you know, sometimes people that that was funny, so I was talking to someone and then, and her mom called, and then she said, Mom, don't worry, she is like us. She's like a normal
human. And I don't know, what kind of month is this? You know, what were you expecting, and she says, but you're joking a lot, you're smiling, and you're wearing jeans. So I told her, you know, that I always wearing jeans, I always wear my white t shirts, and then yellow T shirt, so I'm gonna change it. So that was funny. So that's the reason and especially, you know, some cultures, and many cultures, there is a, you know, the hierarchy barrier. So the delta between hierarchy and
relationship is so high. And the, you know, the outliers work, there is also one case, how the plane crash because of the understanding of hierarchy. So that was the area that we want to improve. And the second is, like, the daily dose of vitamin C, while you are drinking or vitamin C, have read this one as well, it's gonna take five minutes. So that's the, that's the aim is actually about either aim is everyone, all females should be even able to comment about technology.
Because this is not the you know, the age that we all need to learn. So, and the third side is, you know, the bootcamps, once we you know, the full of all of them, I really believe that the power of self discipline can do everything. So we will be, you know, trying to teach how to be more confident how to have a better communication, how to do negotiate, because negotiation
is, I think, underestimated. And it's super, super important, not for business, also, daily life, I think the kids are doing great job, while they are negotiating for something. And also, you know, the social skills, there's communication skills, and afterwards technical skills.
So it makes me think there's been some really interesting research about why computer science and other STEM majors have historically been more appealing to men than women, and why that is starting to change, you know, thank
goodness. But historically, it's been really, really far on one side, as you know, having come up through that system, and one of the things that they found is that there's this stereotype in tech of people being very isolated, and being like these amazing, really good at a skill, but they're sort of alone in a room doing it and just making lots of money. And that's why they're doing it just to be like, the most skilled and really competitive and make
money. And all of those are such, you know, values that are not often that interesting to a lot of female learners. And when they start to rethink and reframe computer science as something that is social that is connected, that you can give back to the world, you can actually improve the world through your coding, which obviously, you know, all about, it makes women much more interested in it. And everything you're saying really resonates
with that research. The hierarchy stuff is incredibly interesting as well, that idea of, you know, how can you become friends with your mentor, rather than being you know, acting like a student and being really afraid of them or thinking they're a robot, like you're saying that all engineers are gonna, you know, are not normal people. I want to go even further on this, because I think this is such an interesting, the cultural aspect of this is so
interesting. And you mentioned that the UAE has one of the highest ratios of Women Engineers, that is a surprise to me. And that's really exciting to hear. One of the stereotypes about some Middle Eastern countries, especially coming from the US is that women are often culturally subjugated.
They're kept from doing things, you know, listeners might think of, you know, in Saudi Arabia, women weren't allowed to drive until five years ago or in Iran currently forbids women from traveling without the consent of their husbands and you know, these feel like medieval ideas. And then you're saying, hey, let's make women into technical entrepreneurs who know how to read and do sales, and it's such a different vision of the Middle
East. So like, tell us more, what are your aspirations of I mean, first of all, are the stereotypes. Is there any truth to them? Or is this just totally wrong? And if there is truth to them, how can technical education you know, really break the glass ceiling for women in the Middle East in North Africa region? Actually, you
know that what I know and what I, you know, the done is mostly in the UAE and also in Saudi Arabia, the kingdom. So I saw what you said it's totally through in the UAE and Saudi, as I said, incentives and the encouragement, and especially for the females above the clouds. So that is super, super impressive NDA, imagine a country they announced the year of the tolerance, that where you can be actually be tolerate any, you know, differences, different cultures and how what would be.
And as far as I know, for me, and for many females or women, for men, UAE and I live in Dubai, it's one of the safest place on earth. Because if women say something, they take it so seriously, a guy and no one can take the photo of a woman. And then if a woman goes to the palace, it's okay that this person took my photo, I will feel so sorry for the other person. So these kinds of things are, you know, is so, so nice.
And in Saudi. That's so someone interesting, like you said that females they're not that they wouldn't love to dry, but once they had the rights, what happened? You know, this is what we also read and heard and the region that people were taking a photo of the females while they try, but this is actually fine. And if anyone does do they have to pay fine. And it's really, you know, the 1000s of 1000s of
saudi riyal. So these were all designed in a way that to give space for females to grow, to learn to shine, and to do you know, the a lot of things and now, the regime is changing Saudi, and then females, they don't need to wear on a buyer, they don't need to wear a hijab. So that's what I know when I go and and I, you know, the CD Saudi vision 2030. And also the Dubai innovation agenda. I mean, it's absolutely amazing. So that's why I feel like I'm home.
And then the everyone actually around me, they're supporting, I'm surrounded with a lot of smart people. And mostly, I'm the dumbest one on the room, which is super important. I mean, honestly, there were some times that I was feeling down, oh, my God, I'm not able to do it. And they will say, We believe in you, you're gonna do it, you do it until today, and you're gonna do better. And even one person tells you this, you know, it means a lot. That that's, I mean, it's amazing.
And the last thing is what I realized, there are super successful people in the Middle East, who already exited the giant tech companies, these guys, you know, they made billion billion dollars, and they have been still working. When I asked them, Why don't you keep working? What makes you you know, the keep you awake at night? Why are you still in the you know, in the region where you're not on your yacht, and somewhere that, you know, the
enjoying time? And the answer that I got, they say, we have done that much things. And now we want to serve back to the new entrepreneurs, and we want to be helpful to the region to grow, and also to compete with Dean of the global arena. I think that's wonderful motivation.
Absolutely. So I'm hearing you know, that there are changes, there are cultural changes that have been coming, you said, especially in the in Saudi Arabia, there's also you know, in Dubai and in the UAE, there's a real embracing, you know, this sort of innovation
and tolerance. And really, it's very actively trying to raise the status of women and and then there's sort of the idea of supportive communities and people who have made it coming around and giving back which obviously ties right into your mentor mentee model, and nice directly into what you're doing. You've run AI companies for business and AI boot camps, and you know, AI tech boot camps for women. I think you're right in the middle of this in many
different ways. You mentioned that the program I think is free for women is that is that how it works? Is Serious Labs free for learners.
Yeah, so we actually you know, also discussing because some people that's very interesting as well, they say, We don't want to work, because you know, we've all had exited or I don't want to I just want to learn and because now I have other plans. So can I join my pay you? That wasn't the initial idea, but if they do we set it okay, if you can, you know the comments beforehand, we can, you know, discuss what's gonna
happen. It's, you know, slander progress, the main motivation is breaking the financial barrier, which they don't need to pay anything till they make money. So that's the, you know, the fire that, you know, keeps us going.
Yeah, it's really amazing. And it's interesting to hear that, you know, because your model is based on payments coming after your bootcamp, you know, graduates or your learner's are hired, people are trying to buy their way in if they don't want to work in the field. That's a really interesting idea. I don't know if that's something that happens in other boot camps. But I, it's really interesting to hear. Let's talk a little bit
about outcome. I've worked in the boot camp industry in the US, and it's a really interesting industry, everybody is incredibly, you know, excited means incredibly well really, really wants to make a difference. But sometimes, there's a criticism that, you know, defining the outcomes of the programs, you know, different boot camps define success a little bit
differently. Some define it as getting the job, like you're saying, or staying in a job or getting a job that was that you make so much more money than you did before you came in others measure success as finishing the program or having a portfolio at the end? And I remember lots of conversations about we sort of called it the denominator question. It's like, Who are you considering your pool of people above which the you know, the numerator is how many have
succeeded? Is it the people who complete the program, the people who take the advice of their mentors and you know, do a new resume or put up a GitHub? Is it people who tell you they want a job in the field? And if they don't say that, then you don't count them? I know, this is a little bit inside baseball. But I'd love to hear how you think about success. You're obviously driving your learner's and trying to get them lucrative, fulfilling jobs in tech. How do
you define success? And what have you seen so far for psoriasis outcomes,
as we said, for, you know, the endpoint that we want to hit, we want more financially independent female in tech industry. So our success, we want to define Okay, as we have x, name, it 101,000 10,000, females find a job after joining our programs. So that actually needs a lot of collaboration and partnership with the companies.
So you know, If anyone looks for a data science project manager, you're gonna talk to them what kind of people you've been looking for, what are your yes and no, and then drafting the program in a way that we can feel this position. So the code will be keep changing based on the need of the recruitment needs.
I love that goal of financially independent women in the tech industry that feels so concrete. And so it's both aspirational and very clear, you know, financially independent people who are making their own money, you know, making enough money to live and do what they want to do. It's so it's very clear, I really, really appreciate that. So let's talk a little bit about AI. We've gone this long, and we've talked about it a little
bit. You mentioned sort of these learning assistants, but you are an AI expert, you have multiple companies that use AI to automate things to personalize learning to for all sorts of things. We are obviously in this amazing moment for AI right now. It's like this inflection point where AI suddenly becomes something that is a desktop tool for everybody, all these co pilots. I'd love to hear just your thoughts about this moment in AI, how is it going to change
the world? And how is it going to change the tech industry?
This question is always makes me smile, because one was a let me remember, it was 12 years ago. So we had one professor at the University, he actually convinced me to join this intelligent engineering systems and AI master's degree. So when I first looked at it, the you know, the curriculum, and I said, How does this so it's, you know, the poorest state constraint programming neural networks, and also the ethics and I understand ethics part of the rest of us. I mean,
it didn't make any sense. So he actually was one of the youngest professor in the world, if I'm not mistaken, he got his professor title at the age of 32. So of course, you know, all the respect. They said, Okay, let's see. So we learn all this machine learning standards and heuristic methods, this neural network, and no one was talking about it. And I told him, You know, when I have to graduate graduate, I asked him, Hey,
where are you? But I'm still, you know, no one's talking about it, and I was gonna happen, and he said, don't worry, we're gonna get there. I'm giving you 10 years. And the other thing, okay, it's fun. Now, I swear, everyone literally talks about the topics that we've studied in 2020 wealth, literally, you know, 10 years ago. It's insane. Because I think I'm sure they know what we're gonna talk about
10 years later, 2031 to 40. So this you know, improvement and technology evolves and getting the somewhere else it's it's something you know, interesting And the way that we define AI, it's changed a lot. Before that on the courses and PhDs and master's degree, the first course, is actually defining the AI. What is AI for you? So that was a specific definition. But now some people say, okay, whatever automates whatever has to be to save time can be AI might be because everyone has
their own definition. So it can, you know, we can see a lot of different things, the way that I see, that is, you know, the software development, there is enormous process, the way that we like to tell the program, or the thing that say, can, you know, to do something that human cannot do and deliver in a specific time of periods, a couple of combination problems in the combinatorial optimization complexity theory, the result that we get the millions of the millions of the
year to be able to find that real optimized, you know, the minimum, but no one has, you know, the human age maximum 7080 years. So, how are we gonna get there? How are we going to do it, of course, we're going to use supercomputers, of course, we're gonna use CSP models. And so I'm gonna stick models,
that's a really interesting definition. So it's almost defined in relationship to how much time it can save. It's all about expediting human intelligence. And if it can truly do that, if it can accomplish things that are beyond what human intelligence can do within a given time period, then you're talking about that sort of augmented artificial intelligence. Did I have that close?
Exactly. I mean, exactly. Because in our whoever we are, whatever our financial, cultural background, we have something in common, which is time. So we all have a clearly 24 hours, and how we're going to use it, how we can optimize. And after, you know, we start getting age, we start getting, you know, the plastic surgeries, and bottles, because we want to see young. So there's many
things that happens, right? So let's, you know, use technology to make the you know, the basic things and some save time,
I just read a really fun article by a Wharton professor who teaches a lot of AI tools in his classes, he sort of embraced it a lot. And he literally said, he gave himself a 30 minute time window and said, How much can I accomplish in 30 minutes with these tools, and he was able to do a whole website, do a whole marketing plan to create all these emails and social media campaigns all
in half an hour. And he defined it exactly like you're saying, in relationship to how much time you can save how much time it would have taken him to do this stuff on his own manually, or even a whole team versus how much he could do there. And it was really, really interesting. I'll put a link to that blog post in the show notes for this episode, just because it's so it's so relevant to your definition of time. Let's go even deeper. How about Ed Tech? So AI is on everybody's, it's on
everybody's minds. You're hearing about neural networks every day now. But what about education? You know, where are the big levers that AI is going to improve? Education Technology, I know you're already using it for learning assistance, but what other things you see coming around the corner.
That's, for example, one of the you know, the funny thing that I will tell you then the other way, the you know, the master's degree, we had a human computer interaction. So I had a cousin who was obsessed with french fries. And she was five years old, and she was keep eating, we were trying to, you know, to gain some healthy habits. And we came up with an idea that okay, we're gonna do we're gonna gamify on this, and we will be developing a game for the kids to help them to gain
healthy habits. So V thought that, you know, how are we going to show it because as a, you know, adult once we see, I mean, it looks ugly. So is it okay, it's not gonna happen. So we were trying to do the 3d, we were trying to use the AI sets, and we were trying to, you know, make we, you know, the test the test before production, then I give it laptops or tablets to my cousin. And she looked at it, she even didn't realize this 3d things, because the kids mindset is, you know, the design and
very different way. And she found a lot of bugs on the system. And we as adults, we couldn't, you know, think that way. And since now, you know, we are the kids that to see your friends or the call or friends or professors we were waiting for the morning because there was no mobile phones. There was no tablets, no chat, no trolls, and this kids and the next generation, they have an access to everything. Of course, that's also you know, that they are
learning methods. They have an access to whole process or, you know, amazing edtech companies where they can have on the medical you know, Have their health. I mean, it's so important, it's very crucial. And it never accept mistake. So it should be, you know, the top
notch all the time. So, image processing, giving them access to watch them the, you know, the surgeries, or other practices, or having a AR, or the VR sets, or maybe even, you know, the summarizing, and understanding and diagnosing the cancer or any pieces before that realized. They are actually all ghosts, you know, the ad tech umbrella.
It's a really interesting vision, you know, you mentioning this idea of developing a game for healthy eating and your your immediately saw the bugs and look right through the 3d. And you know, what aspect of AI in edtech, that I've been wondering about recently, I'd love to get your take on is the idea that, you know, we've been trying to figure out how to, like you say, gamify, make, make education entertaining and engaging, make it make it feel as fun and interesting as other things that
young people do. I wonder if we're coming to a moment where we can literally just tell an AI tool, Hey, make us a game that teaches people not to eat french fries, or to teach people you know how to be healthy, make it really, really fun. And the AI can be like, I'm gonna do that I can actually pull together all the human knowledge and even go beyond it, and actually make tools that you know, us as
people always aspire to. We've been trying to make, you know, engaging fun edtech for generations, maybe the AI can actually push us over the hill and actually do that. Do you think that's possible?
I think question is actually, I don't know, if you're aware of one of the tests, and the study in Facebook, or maybe it wasn't in a Google, I think it wasn't Google, if I'm not mistaken. So they had two engines, and they were communicating about the machine learning. And somehow, they learned that they created another language, and only machines can understand. And the scientists who developed a system, they decided to shut down because they didn't know
what is going on there. So that's, you know, that's pretty interesting and pretty impressive. So, but personally, my humble opinion, who develops that systems? Human? Who are they? Scientist, and we know that the code and the system might be biased. The reason is, who are the inputs. So if we have, you know, the bigger communities more homogeneous, and the area, that's going to be
better. And what we need to do, you know, when the, you know, when just thinking, you know, the basic logic, the Harmon elements will be always there. Because it's, you know, it's keep actually changing. So now with chat, GPT ones anything, right, and it goes down, imagine, or potential clients, they write the requirements list with GPT, and they designed the system, the chat GPT, even give the budget for it. Based on our experience, it's impossible.
With that budget, if they can do it, I will also start using that system. So human touch would need it. In my humble opinion. I'm not an expert on this, but this is what I see and what I feel
we're in a moment where I think everybody's looking at the future of this and saying, which way is this
gonna fall? It's interesting, that example of the two AI is making up their own language, I think we're gonna see we're gonna live to see a world where, you know, AI authors create work that is only understandable are only good, only considered good by other artificial intelligences, where it literally does beyond humanity and sort of almost create its own community of different intelligences that can understand things in different ways. That's my that's again, I
don't know, either. I'm certainly not an expert, much less than you are. But I really think that there's something very interesting there and hearing your your anecdote about the machines making up their own language feels like a step in that direction.
Yeah, you know, sometimes this one common thing and you know, last week called something and they say, Okay, I tried or is about and someone else, but I tried, it was working, but it doesn't work for me. And we started looking at the code, and we don't understand anything, and then we come to the point. We don't know what's going on. Let's try it tomorrow. Because you know, at the end of the day, humans are the creators,
right? At the end of the day, humans are the creators for now.
Yeah, we're now for now that's it. We're gonna see we will talk 10 or 20 years later on, maybe you know, the or holograms would talk brief send us a brief of our conversation.
Yeah. I'm curious what your professor from 10 years ago is saying about what's going to happen in the next 10 years. He obviously had a pulse on where these neural networks were going. Yeah, after this
call. I'm gonna give him a call.
This is so interesting. I'm wondering doing with Sirius Labs is really groundbreaking. And it's really amazing to see the combination of using cutting edge technology like, you know, AI powered learning assistants with psychology like mentor mentee relationships and boot camps and motivational, you know, constructs that set up students for success, and remove some of that, you know, hierarchical structure between teachers and students. It's really, really
fascinating. We have to wrap up, unfortunately, we're coming to the end of our time, but I want to ask, you know, our two final questions, and I'm super curious, what is a trend that you see rising in the tech landscape right now? And it can be aI related or not? But what do you see that sort of like people, you know, being whispered or being, you know, it's only in certain articles, but soon, it's going to be on everybody's lips, just like neural networks,
I think you know, that everyone's keeps talking about the GPT. And even the, you know, the primary school, kids, they just use it. And my age, I was searching, I was diving the pages of the encyclopedia, and now they just write it, and they get it. So I think it's going to stay more in our daily language.
Yeah, this is just an article about how search engines are getting nervous. Because, you know, websites are getting nervous because they're found through search. And people might not use search the same way if they can get the whole answer, right, you know, from the get go, and not have to go to those websites that tell you you're you know, you're gonna
die from a headache. What is one resource that you would recommend for people who want to learn more about any of the topics we talked about today?
I think whatever we talked about, on the AI side, you know, the series labs, we talked about the culture and then female hierarchy. So one of my favorite book is the Culture Map of Professor Aaron Mayer. It's unbelievably amazing, because I'm gonna give just one example that you know, the listeners, and they would look into it. So in the US culture, people are result oriented. So is it one, or zero, and this should be the way that should
go. And Europe and especially in the Netherlands, and then the close that area, people should be super direct, because this is the proof of trust. And the journey is also important. In the Middle East. There is a hierarchy and if you say it, right, it my son's a route. So it's a process oriented, comparing versus result oriented
in the US and Middle East. You need to read between the lines understanding the culture understanding the cultural matrix, so whoever wants to, you know, the grow, explore touch bases in a different cultures. I think this is a must read book, to understand this kind of dynamics.
Fascinating. That's terrific. That's a culture map by Erin Meyer. I am ordering it today. I'm really you sold me completely on it by Professor Erin Meyer. We'll we'll put the link to the Culture Map by Erin Meyer in the show notes for this episode. As always, along with links to Sirius labs and d 14 and everything else we talked about Melda Aachen, this has been a
really fun conversation. And the way you combine your personal experiences with these incredibly complex and deep technical knowledge is just really inspiring for me and I'm sure it inspires many people that you work with in the Middle East and North Africa. Thanks so much for being here with me on a tech insiders. Likewise, thank
you very much for having me.
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