you Hello dear listeners, welcome to the ECM podcast. I'm Caroline Fontaineux and I'm very happy to host this series that will take you behind the scenes of new music on ECM Records. In this new episode, I'm meeting over Zoom with two guitar heroes. Jacob Brough and Bill Frizzell to discuss Jacob's new ECM album Taking Turns, recorded alongside an all-star lineup and produced by Manfred Aichia. We talked about pole motion, Lykonitz, ECM history and guitar cases.
We're celebrating the release of Taking Turns, recorded 10 years ago and finally out on ECM. And it's your music, Jakob. I want to start with asking you... Were some of the tracks written with this lineup in mind? Yes. I mean, it's my songs, somehow my starting points, but it's a very collective thing, I think. But yeah, like, Black is All Colors at Once, which is the opening song, was...
was recorded with Paul Motion, actually. And it was one of my, I think that was my first album. It's on my first album I did with Paul Motion called Pearl River. Yeah, the rest of the pieces were all written. specifically for this session yeah And you're talking about Pearl River, which was your 2007 album with Paul Motion. And I want the two of you to talk to me a little bit about Paul because, I mean, he has a big, you know, place in both your career and lives.
I talked about Paul last time, Jakob, when we talked for this podcast, because you were promoting Once Around the Room, which was a clear tribute to I Have a Room Above Her. That's an album that you, Bill, are on. Can you both talk to me a little bit about Paul Motion before we get into the incredible lineup of this album, Taking Turns? Yeah, I mean, I could say that's how I met Jacob was Paul introduced me.
i don't remember what year that this is a long time ago i remember we went to an italian restaurant and just a couple blocks down from the village village vanguard and that's where I met Jakob for the first time. And then I think Paul gave me one of your albums. I remember listening to this music on a, I don't know what the album is called, but it was so beautiful. And you were hardly even playing on the album. Do you know which one I'm talking about? Yeah, it's called Sidetracked.
But I remember, again, I think I was on tour with Paul, and I thought, oh, I'm going to listen to this guy and see what this is. And it was like this beautiful music. And what really impressed me was it wasn't about the guitar. It was about the... the music itself and and then it's some years late it's quite a bit later when you invited me to play
I lose track of how many things we did together, but usually Paul was there. So, you know, there's this very strong, I mean, you know, I played with Paul for 30 years, I can't tell you. how important he was it's there's no way i could overstate how important he was in my life and that's you know he brought jacob and i together so yeah and his spirit is very very much present in this album really
He was really important for everyone in this lineup. And would you agree with that, Jakob? Yes, definitely. This album was actually like I did a trilogy which started with balladeering. with Lee Konitz and Ben Street and Bill on guitar and Paul on drums. That was the first album in that trilogy. And I did two more albums. The first one Paul couldn't do.
And he passed away right afterwards. And then we did one more without Paul. So I didn't want to ask any other drummer to take part in this music because it was... Paul's spirit was so much present in these three albums, Balladeering, Time and December Song. But then years later.
i felt like doing something like this this trilogy was nominated for the nordic council's music prize in in the nordic countries and and i started thinking about maybe doing some sort of like anniversary album with Koenitz and of course with Bill who is very very important in this trilogy and at that time I felt like it was okay to ask a different drummer and I thought Andrew Cyril would be a perfect
sort of person to invite into this music because it's so different from Paul and he would do something completely different with the music so it was actually meant to come out as a sort of like celebration of the trilogy like several years later and I just had
I had no idea that ECM was going to put it out. I was going to do this on my own somehow. I remember the album Bill is talking about, because that's called Sidetracked, and it's an album I did with... I wrote most of the music on guitar, but then I changed...
all the guitar parts into keyboards and I was singing on the album and inviting all kinds of friends to play with me and it turned out to be a little bit of a different album in relation to the other music I've done and Paul really liked that album. I was very surprised, but he wrote me a really sweet message and he really dug that album. And I think that was what the album Bill heard and somehow, I don't know, gave me some sort of blue stamp in terms of collaborating or something.
Andrew Cyril is bringing such a different approach to the music and something incredibly warm and incredibly generous. And again, it's a family affair because Bill, you've been playing with Andrew for... a long time too well yeah but you know i think i had known andrew from oh many years ago the first time i met him i was with john zorn in tokyo
Walking down the street, you know, how many million people in Tokyo? And then up comes Andrew Cyril on the sidewalk. And that's where I met him the first time. That's amazing. This is probably in the 80s or something, you know, long, long ago. And then we would see each other, you know, we'd be on different gigs at different times. And, you know, it was like we had become friends.
But we still had never played. He was also very close with Paul. Yeah. You know, he played when we did Paul's memorial in New York. Andrew played there. And, you know, they were contemporaries. of the same generation played with many of the same people and but what i was getting at was the first time we actually played i think was on this album was on yakov's album i think it gets a little blurry
But I mix things up a little bit. I did a duet concert with Andrew also around that time, either before or after that. And then since then, I've been playing with him.
yeah and we knew each other for a while so it's still like it stays in the family and of course I want to talk about Lee Konitz I mean what an incredible presence on this album but also in all of our lives really yeah he was 86 when he recorded this uh album with you guys and he's the youngest of all yeah he was always ready for anything like So wide open his whole life. He never was afraid to go off into some uncharted territory. Yeah. Jakob, do you remember?
this recording specifically like do you have like vivid memories of because that was 10 years ago a lot has happened since then what are your memories from this recording session at avatar studio in new york i mean i guess my memory is that i feel like it was it was both sort of
I felt like I was at the end of something, but also at the beginning of something. It was some kind of transition. Yeah, some sort of because also when I listen to it now, it's like when I see the names of this album, it almost. I almost feel like, you know, when you see the Kamala Harris, she comes out of a record shop with an LP and people are copy pasting their own LP into her hands.
You know, when you see this album line up, it's like, yeah, somebody got a copy pasted my name onto this list of people. It's like, I don't really, it's very surreal somehow. But I think it's also a very sort of beautiful.
like like the way in this music people invite each other into their lives and into their music and into their families and then you you learn from each other somehow and me as a young musician i was very lucky to be invited into of course paul's musical world but also like bills and of course lee konitz all these incredible
incredible musicians and and i was you know i didn't feel ready i wouldn't even feel ready today but i you know i just had the feeling that i had to go with the flow somehow and really do my best not to screw things up and just absorb and learn as much as possible. So listening to this music and thinking about that session, that's sort of the vibe I'm getting. I really feel grateful.
To have been able to go into a room with all these incredible musicians and friends and create music together with them and have that trust somehow is something I almost can't really grasp. And then at the same time... 2014 was kind of the starting point for me in terms of touring under my own name and Manfred was releasing my first trio album on ECM very close to this date, which sort of, I think, put me in a... situation where I started learning a lot from playing concerts and from
Yeah, I felt like my playing and my sort of overview in terms of playing music with people, the way I was hearing stuff just gradually became better from then on somehow. So it's like, I feel like this album represents the old me in a way where... I was composing music and imagining what this little chord progression could sound like if I put it in front of Bill, for instance. And then it also represents me at a time where I'm...
almost ready to sort of use my wings and try to fly a little bit myself in a way. So I'm seeing it from both points of view in a way and I'm just really grateful that this document exists. you Bill, I was re-watching for maybe the fourth time last night, music for Black Pigeons. I'm fascinated by this object, this movie, I don't know how to call it.
And in this documentary, Bill, you're saying, every day I pick up the instrument and it feels like I'm just starting at the beginning all over again. Well, yeah. Talk to me about it. Do you still feel that way? oh yeah i mean that's i think that's just the nature of music it's it's so well when we were talking about you know we talked about lee konitz i think he always had that where
You have to realize that you can't finish music. When I was young, I used to think, oh, if I practice real hard and then I'm going to learn how to play music and then I'll know. But it doesn't work that way. It's like you're in a constant state of...
Everything that's out in front of you, everything that you don't know is infinite. It stays that way always. So in that way, it feels... I still remember those first moments when I, like the first day I got my first electric guitar and I opened the case and I could smell this new thing in there. and just trying to find a place to put my fingers on it and just now before we started talking i took my guitar out of the case and i put my fingers on it and it was the same feeling you know
But it's not just the instrument, it's just the world of music. There's no end to it, so it still feels that way. And it's important to be able to feel that way because I don't know if everybody can say that. And I think it's super inspiring and refreshing to hear that from you, Bill, because also... You've played with everyone and you've played everywhere in the world and you have this amazing career behind you yet and also in front of you, of course.
It's just the fact that you see it as something that is endless and it's just, it's not about getting to, you know, check the bucket list points one after another, but just getting inspired every day. Yeah, just being in it. That's the best thing. Do you relate, Jakob? Yes, totally. I mean, I think, yeah, I can totally relate. I still really don't understand what it is about music that I love.
it's still sort of the surprising element that i'm searching for in music somehow and in many ways i don't even really see but not a not a particularly great one um i'm just I'm just doing my best I guess in terms of using my imagination when I'm in different situations with musicians to see if I can help somehow.
guide or carry the music in a direction that I find interesting somehow. Yeah, I've learned that that doesn't necessarily like has to be directly related to being great at playing your instrument in a specific way. I'm searching for music in all kinds of genres. I'm listening to musicians who are not able to play hard chords or different harmonies.
where the expression is more sort of at play somehow. And I'm searching and a big part of my sort of musical journey is also to imagine different musicians that I love. together somehow like put put people together and and write little things that i think can can turn into something that i'd like to listen to that doesn't necessarily require myself to be a part of it i recently also started recording and releasing music where i'm not even playing myself you
What you were saying earlier, Bill, about the first album you heard, it's almost like, Jakob, you were almost not playing in this. And I just wanted to talk about it for a second because... In this album, Taking Turns, you're two guitars, right? And there's something where it feels so interesting because guitar is everywhere but also never in front, really.
Even though it's your album, Jacob, there's something where you're hugged by the guitar sounds, both yours and Bill's. And it's a very balanced presence, but it's never... The ego is never there. I mean, I can relate to opening the guitar case for the first time and the smell of the interior of the case and the electric guitar. But then at the same time...
The guitar for me was always a very difficult instrument because I started playing the trumpet when I was a kid and I was playing in my father's big band. Long before I played the guitar, I was... playing Ellington and Louis Armstrong and different jazz arrangements with my father. So the guitar was actually somewhat of a detour for me, and I pretty quickly wanted to go back to playing the trumpet.
And I was very sort of stubborn. And also I felt like I had already spent too much time with the guitar. So, you know, that might have been time wasted and that's not really my style. So I stayed with the instrument. Despite the fact that most of my heroes at that time were, you know, Miles and Coltrane and Ellington and Nina Simone and it was Billie Holiday and it was Lester Young and Dexter Gordon and Bud Powell and Monk and like all these people were playing instruments.
that I thought were very... I couldn't find a way to make the guitar sort of fit into that musical world somehow, which was always tricky for me. Of course, I practiced a lot and I was trying my best to. And of course, I listened to guitar players too. Bill was always a big inspiration for me, Jim Hall.
Charlie Christian. I listened to a lot of John Abercrombie, everybody, like Rav Towner, Pat Bethini, Schofield, so beautiful musicians. But I think for me, I was always trying to sort of find a way for the guitar to sort of... not be in the way like when there was a piano player or when there's a saxophone player like make the guitar fit into this whole sort of sound without it being too sort of in the way.
It's kind of like an alien somehow. And I think at a pretty early age, I realized that maybe I can use the guitar as a way to create different atmospheres for... say the piano or a saxophone player that I really love, or I can use the guitar to set up a mood for my favorite trumpet player to play something I really want to listen to.
So I went away from the idea of the guitar being a solistic instrument from a very early age and was more thinking of it as some sort of tool to create something that could... maybe create an atmosphere where other instruments could also be themselves. I don't know if it makes sense, but I think that's my way of seeing it. So the love for the guitar is something that came slowly for me. I love the instrument now for all of the reasons that I just told you.
Everything that I was struggling with is now some sort of like that has turned into the advantage for me in a way. So I don't know. That's great. Bill, that was always the guitar for you. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was in love with it from when I was just a tiny little, almost a baby, I guess, for as long as I can remember. But Jakob made me think of...
My memory of what was happening, it's not so much about even the guitar, but the pieces that he wrote, it's like an invitation for a conversation with all the people in the room. I mean, I can't speak for Jakob, but the experience of going into the sessions that I've done with him, there's no real rules for what we were to do. there's a melody or there's some chords or it was very very open and he's allowing everyone that's in that room to
To me, it's more like a conversation. You know, it's not like one person is, well, of course, there's a, maybe a voice will come forward at some moment or, but it's more about the, let's just all get together and peace and we can. This will give us a framework to just talk to each other. Bill, you have quite the history with ECM, right? Your first album on ECM with Eberhard Weber in 79. Yeah. And you recorded... Yeah, after I was born. The year you were born, exactly. Whoa.
you were you recorded with Mark Johnson and Jan Gabbach and Paul of course and uh Paul Motion and and and a lot of uh projects under your names of course Can you talk to me a little bit about your relationship with ECM since fluid rustle like 45 years ago? Yeah I mean it's so you know I remember very clearly when those first the very first ECM albums were coming out you know i was just out of high school entering into college and i'm dreaming about you know maybe someday i can
All I wanted to do was play, but I never really knew if I could survive just on music. You did. But I remember, you know, these, like, what is this? Remember those first... There were two Chick Corea solo albums that came out, or there was Keith's Facing You. And something was so different about, I'm talking about even the physical, the weight.
of the vinyl was heavier and then there was that green label and it was like it was you know something new was happening and the people that were recording their It was like there had been something missing. It's like there was something going on that was suddenly being captured. It was like a place where, you know.
leo smith or there was like a dave holland and derrick bailey duet record there was the first chicoria with return to forever you know all those were so influential I never would have dreamt that well it's weird to think now that it was only 10 years after the beginning of ECM that I actually got to play on an ecm record and then even then i thought well okay i did that i that's probably the last i'll ever see of these people but you know i was so that
album with Eberhard I was just you know I'd never really been in a like even checked into a hotel or or been in a studio I didn't know how things worked you know I was so young and terrified you know but You keep going. And then a few years later, I got to do more. And it's, you know, off and on throughout the years. It's amazing thinking. I'd like to say that.
Yeah, I think that's really spot on. It's like a real honor to be a part of this. It's also pretty frightening. I remember when I did my first Trio album, it was with Manfred. It was with Ewan Christensen playing the drums and Thomas Morgan on bass. We were at Rainbow in Oslo. And Eniak Kongsao was engineering. And I felt like I couldn't play one note. you know it's also a thing when you're in a family like there's you know there's you know each other so well in a way so i i thought
Bill was in the room. I thought Pat Metheny was in the room. I felt like John Abercrombie was in the room. I felt like Ralph Towner was there. I felt like I couldn't, I could hardly play. I went to the control room to listen, you know, Manfred was sitting there, Jan-Erik was sitting there, Jung Christensen. I'm not worthy somehow. That was my... I couldn't listen to that first album for six months. I was just like, I went home and I was like...
Yeah, no, let's just forget about that. And then slowly I realized that it was somehow okay. And I felt like, yeah, maybe it's okay that I'm a part of this family.
I found a little branch for myself in the whole sort of tree of music, ECM, but also just music in general, I think. But anyway, this album for me really has this sort of... generational family tree kind of vibe and the way the older generation is inviting the younger generation to be a part of this is it's just really beautiful i think
Jacob Brough and Bill Frizzell about Jacob's new album on ECM Records, Taking Turns. Thank you for joining, choosing and listening to our ECM podcast. I'm Caroline Fontagneux. And I look forward to sharing more music with you in the next episode.