Reverse Dieting Roundtable with Jeremiah Bair | ETP#92

yeah what's up guys happy tuesday welcome back to another episode of eat train prosper today we have our good

m

friend and fellow coach on the podcast by the name of jeremy a bear and we are going to have a round table on reverse dieting so kind of recently there was an episode

oh

of the stronger by science podcast that came out specific episode was is titled stretch mediated hypertrophy and reverse dieting and in this episode eric trexler and greg knuckles cover what the current body of research says about reverse dieting

m

after it was released brian and i have received some some messages from people who were just kind of confused by certain things and reached out to us and we decided we would do an episode about it and i thought who

oh

better to invite on to this podcast than our good friend jeremiah who i know works with a large population of people who are probably pretty interested in some of the scarce around it so i thought it would be a fantastic

yeah

opportunity to bring him on to the podcast so jeremiah thank you for joining us and can you introduce yourself please

absolutely first of all i am so so to be here i know

yeah

i've had both of you on the podcast numerous times

a

kind of a brian bore scene and of course aron straker fan girl so

m

it is super

hm

cool to be here but yeah my name is jeremiah bear i have been a coach for nearly nine years in part of a coaching team there are four of us and as you said we work with primarily i don't think you said was actually but we work

yeah

primarily women really just interested in physique development as a whole so not just like i want to like lose thirty pounds or whatever it is but again i want to learn like want to better understand hypertrophy i want to learn how to really my body i want to learn how to build muscle but yeah that is essentially me in a shell

ah

awesome awesome so before we will jump into the

m

topic for today

h

in traditional

my

or typical i should say

yeah

train proper prosper fashion

so

brian can you kick us off with some updates

oh

please yeah

yeah thank you for the opportunity to speak

oh

i'm honored to be here with you fine gentlemen i'm also really happy because today is the first day that i finally don't feel definitely sick since thursday last week and this is now tuesday so i got hit with some ship that i wish upon nobody and i don't get sick like this too often but

uh

essentially i

h

had a fever body aches and chills for thursday and friday and no throat pain all but lovely me woke up saturday morning and my fever was gone and suddenly had this like incredibly aching throat and i couldn't actually eat food so for two days i couldn't eat food because i had a fever and then for the last three days i haven't been able to eat food because my throat won't let me actually swallow things and today more or less i can't say i'm back to normal food still hurts but i can actually

yah

know as if everything is cool and i have this like dagger sore throat just going on in the background

yah

so

oh

like i said

yeah

today i finally feel better but one interesting thing i found throughout all of this is that despite five days

m

of eating

m

like fifty per cent of my total calory allotment and probably sixty percent of my total protein um like i've been averaging i would say six seventy

m

to a hundred grams of protein day and maybe like eight hundred calories a day something like that umworkouts have been fine i've actually exceeded or matched performance on every single thing that i've done over the last three days and i've had a couple of people contact me too through through d m and internet and stuff and say that they routinely do like three day fast of their into lieautofogy and stuff like that longevity different population than hypertrophy people but

yeah

but they routinely do these like three day fast and they work out as intensely as they usually would through

oh

them and also notice no decrement in performance so i just that was really interesting and kind of surprising because usual the usual path post sickness for me is oh man i feel so weak and it takes like three or four days of feeling weak to kind of it's almost like a de load work out as you ramp up effort levels again but this time it's like the fever diminished and i was right back at it you know setting pres in the gym so just kind of a weird sickness all around

oh

for me and yeah so one more up date from me is that i had my six week prpupdate after we recorded last week's episode on bio mechanics and i was a little bit hesitant i had some apprehension going into that appointment about what would be the result but as it turns out he said everything is on track looks like there's no damage or formation that seems to be showing through which i thought may be the case after i went on that hike on day four which was not advised and then m it

yeah that i'd never heard of the nurse what was it again

penancerine versa

oh

penancerin versa but when you did say that it did remind me i did pull my adductor the other day doing ab wheels

m

so that sucked

yeah

but then you know really strangely enough it was still a little bit like it was just kind of like tight going into training quads yesterday and i had like you know the like

m

press like deep light press and i was like ind of nervous like do i push it and risk like you know really making it worse or do i like you now take a step back and in traditional aron fashion i'm i'm just going to push it and see what happens and then low behold it feels perfectly fine now after that yesterday which is complete opposite of what would normally happen but i completely forgot about it until you brought that up so besides that i don't have too much going on but i am

oh

uh

my coffee habit had kind of got to the point where

yeah

my sleep was just effected and that's how i'll find out like that it's time to pull back i'll be kind of tired throughout the day or i'll have like a couple of coffee and i'm still yawning afterwards and then for me it's like it's nine thirty it's ten it's ten thirty and i'm just like not

oh

ready to go to sleep i'm like

yeah

and then i'm just sleeping poorly and i'm like fun i have to do have to kind of de tax off of

oh

caffeen so what i did just got some deaf and of course dcafhas small amount of caffeine but that's what i'm doing and still enjoying my coffee flavor for the most

oh

part but have been doing that and i have

m

been

oh

feeling it dragging

yeah

ass like mid afternoon just low energy and something like jenny we'll go to the gym at the same time because it's a good drive

m

and sometimes i have to take like a small like ten minute nap in the car ride to the gym

yeah

i'm

yeah

like and i'm like i'm going in this like lower body session and i am dragging ass and i was like should i even be

m

here but something that's really funny is like i get i get i warm up i get into like my feet are

yeah

sets and like bam like that that i grendel it's that cortes all starts pumping and i have amazing training sessions and i have like great days in the gym and then i'm good afterwards it's just like so it's the whole point i brought his up is it's really kind of cool to see experience like your nervous system like doing its thing where you're like dragging ass and then you turn it on and you're good to go so that's

hm

been that's been interest to see although i am excited for one ticket to can you working through this like no caffeine period and then once it's over to get back on the sauce so i can get back to feeling

hm

hundre sent in being the best version of myself but that's about it from the updates for me jeremiah what's going on in your world

yeah first on the caffnnote have either of you guys ever heard of the supplement rutocarpine i believe it's how you say it

nope

basically it helps your body metabalize

yeah

can faster now i don't like i'm almost kind of hesitant to put this out there because i have not like dug into like is this something

oh

that's

m

okay to use consistently but it is something that i have recently and it is kind of crazy now i'm kind of i kind of just use this like i think i would be probably much better

oh

off doing what you're doing aron

oh

and just like with

my

deaf coffee for a week but i

oh

honestly don't want to do that to myself it is really crazy to me to see like

uh

how much of a difference

ah

that makes in sleep quality where i think normally my capinintake is probably like four hundred to five hundred milligrams per day and it has been like since i've started taking that now again i think it's kind of like easy out and again i can't say i'm like recommending this but i think it would i like straker and brian both you guys would be

oh

interesting to hear your input if you dug into it a bit further because it

yeah

is something that i've been using s

m

of late and it is pretty cool see what a difference it makes but and i can link that up to you guys after the show as well but yeah man this last week for me has been an insane week honestly so like we

yah

were talking about off air

h oh

um just finish

yeah

a photo shoot prep so my photo shot was

oh

tuesday so a week from a week ago today m

yeah

thursday proposed to my girlfriend which was

oh

now want which was

my

very nerve racking

oh

um i procrastinated

oh

that for so long just because i wanted to make sure everything went extremely well but i'm really happy with how that worked out and then

yeah

friday we left for hawaii and we are now in hawaii

yeah

so it has

oh

been a crazy week but yeah man getting ready for the shoot was a super

oh

cool experience again like we were

oh

talking about off air

oh

i got down to at my lowest i got down to one seventy seven which was pretty crazy and i been working with brandon decres you guys are both familiar i think good friend of everyone here super cool

oh

just learned from him i really love just like working with different coaches and seeing how everyone does things and just being able to take what i can and become a better coach myself from it but it was really cool to go through that experience with brandon and and we got again it was crazy to me to get down to l one seventy seven as i was talking about off air like my freshman year of college when i got into training hard i remembe like being like one seventy five to one seventy seven

m

let alone like especially in like the previous time i'd gotten so the lines had been before this the first photoshoot i ever did i got down to one eighty the morning of the shoe and that was the previous low had seen but um honestly it was a really cool experience for me specifically it was interesting to see like brian i know you've talked a lot about holding a lot of body fat on your lower body specifically like hamstrings

yeah

really come out for us that right

yeah ham strings and like lower gluts primarily

kay and i didn't get to the point where like i would be interested to see how far i would have to take it to get to the point where i had like glusriations i wasn't there but for me it was super

m

interesting because

m

i have always i mean i've always known that similar to you like i hold a decent bit more fat in my lower body and like no matter what i'll always have like i can get up to like two thirty

ye

and i'll still be able to see my top couple ab so i think

hm

i think that's partially to my detriment because i can take i can take a building phase pretty far and put

oh

on a lot a lot of fat and it's like oh well i still have abs can still see a couple of s so i'm good and then i have to cut so far down because of that but it

yeah

was cool for me to see i had always thought that quads and just lower body is a whole

yeah

world massive weakness but really still it was just like

m

my body fat store and i don't know why i didn't put this together before but it was really cool to see like as i got to a new level land i had never been before like how much more my quads came through specifically so that was a really cool thing but again um i've been a crazy last couple of weeks year but she went super well and yeah that's more or less what i have been up to

sweet i want to dig in with a couple of questions on this so with brandon de cruise i know he specializes usually on nutrition were you handling your own training or was he doing that as well

no i had brandon run my training as well and

cool

brandon is someone that's very knowledgeable with training i would say it's very similar to a program that i think any of us would put together i've really loved having that aspect as well that was for me i was thinking i was going to self coach or like aaron i know we talked about having you run my nutrition to get lean but then i was putting together my training program and i spent it trying to write my first program i remember i was sin

oh

there i literally spent thirty

oh

minutes trying to think about which divisions a lot do i want to prioritize here

uh

with this movement i was like all right i just got

h

out sources like i am over

a

thinking this so much i just had to out source it so

oh

yeah we followed

m

decending r r across weeks so we'll start at three so somehwhat similar to like an r p style r r progression accept once we get to like that zero to one are week then from there rather than at being like a okay we're automatically going de load it's just let's look at bofe back and we'll stay in that zero our week for like multiple weeks until it seems like we actually need to load and i do like that approach to it quite a bit better than it's just being like here's the zero

yeah

the fixed volume increases every week or anything of that nature

yeah i relate to that to i do similarly

m

but

m

i tend to take those short overload movements once we get

oh

to zero r i'll then take them into partials and reverse drop sets and length

hm

that are less fatiguing but i think like to your point about you know being able to do multiple weeks at zero r r in a row i think that that's something that comes through more diligent exercise selection and ecution because if you're that person that's just doing back squats and dead lifts and you know big barbel basics by the time you hit zero r i r your ass needs a de load but if you're doing like lap pull downs and dual cable lateral raises and stuff like that like you're not going to

yeah and then i mean even like as we got deeper into the part of what we did is like after that zero r our

yeah

week like i was starting to feel some fatigue but it didn't seem quite like i needed to de load yet so then we took like some more fatiguing movements okay gin to keep these around one to two r r going to keep like your smaller isolation s clifts at zero r r and i thought i really like that approach as well where again

yep

like i don't feel like i quite need this de load yet but yeah

cool i dig that ar and any questions to dig into

m

on any of that

ah um i did have one and now i can't remember but no i think what what you brought up brian was really really great because i agree

yeah

with jeremiah in that

my

yeah

personally i will run multiple you

yeah

know weeks at zero r r for certain movements is the like huge asterisk there you can't i shouldn't say you can't you probably

m

shouldn't run multiple week of

yah

a zero r r on like

h

dead lift

ah

or what

yah

i found out the hard way of like a stiff

h

legged dead lift like last year but like

oh

rose pull downs bicep curls cept dealt like you can probably run multiple weeks at zero r r especially if you're still progressing know smaller

yep

movements shortened overload movements are fine pretty much hams quads you may not want to do that there

yeah

m

or leg extensions

yeah

and leg curls you do but the squat patterns and the hinge

yeah

patterns you don't um

even better

yeah totally so jeremiah you are this

m

super lean shredded version of yourself

yeah

and you're hundred seventy seven pounds so what's the

oh

deal man are we going to reverse diet or

ah

what are we going to do from here

so actually the

oh

approach and i think this is an interesting way to start

yeah

this conversation around

oh

reversed ting i know

m

right now i'll be interested to see what this looks like after this and from my conversation with brandon in the past think he takes a pretty similar approach where i'm guessing in the future will probably be rider out of the maintenance but actually um with me like proposing and then going to hawaii the approach we took is immediately

ah

after the shot was over okay you have an extra thousand to twelve hundred and fifty calories to work with um and there i have a lot more for the most part i follow like a flexible meal plan so to speak where if i want to go and i play macrotethur's a bit more i can but like as

yeah

of these two weeks like post to the wednesday after i get back it's literally just we have an exter thousand to twelve hundred fifty calories added to you targets and part of that too is like we want me to gain back a bit of body fat like i have no illusion of trying

yeah

to stay this lean i know brandon doesn't want that either but yeah um as of now know we have definitely not taken like a slow reverse dieting approach i'll also say like with us being in hawielike how well i would have stuck to like a hundred hundred call grees from

right

where i was previously um i

oh

probably would fall throw that very well but

yeah

as of now i honestly now i don't want to put words in brandon's mouth but as of now i know where very least that maintenance

oh

or probably in a very slight surplus um and i'm assuming after this two weeks stretches up it sounds like we're just going to aim to be right around maintenance

yeah so i feel like this brings an interesting question because when you're down at a hundred and seventy seven pounds how much more really up is maintenance and what what i mean by that is like you've probably been butting up against a wall for the last few weeks where

yeah

you've had to lower calories and lower calories or increase movement just to get the scale to move a half pound or a pound or something like that right is that you're it

ah i lost you there for a second but i think you said it's probably been kind of a grind for me to continue to lose

ye

correct

correct yeah

honestly for me it hasn't been too bad

yeah

our targets have been pretty consistent for what i found for myself is

oh

and i think

yeah

this kind of goes i wanted to get you guys take on this as well because i know there's

yeah

kind of when we're talking about metabolisms you hear about like we have these metabolic no types which is like the spin thrift versus the thrifty metabolism but if i under and that correctly which like the spin thrift always get these two confused but i believe i believe like the thrift this thrifty metabolism fono type is supposedly like we store calories easily as fat but our body also doesn't want to let us lose fact easily right where it like there are these people

yeah

who gain fat easily but they have a hard time losing that and the other in the spin thrift they have

yeah

quite a quite a bit easier time losing body

yeah

fat but also they ramp up movement quite abt but that's not i would say in like an anecdote that doesn't seem to be what i've seen where at least to my understanding i think that's kind of counter to the idea of like we have more adaptive metabolism or some people really up neat quite a bit so thus we see these individuals who eat where we can ramp calory and take way up because they tend to do more pasting figuring blinking as they eat more but then when we take calories down they also

m

other individuals and like for me it's very easy for me to gain weight like very easily get up to two thirty to forty but also what i've

oh

seen is for myself i typically don't have to push that harder and make that many adjustments for me to lose so i think like

m

throughout this entire process think we we had my starting macro which give in my starting intake was pretty aggressive i believe my rest days which were only two days a week i was read on eighteen hundred calories and my training days i was around twenty three hundred calories so i mean

m

still that's relatively aggressive but i think that's and that was my ending i believe we cut like a hundred and fifty calories off of both those targets once and that

hm

was what like weeks ago actually i think so since then we

m

haven't made any adjustments and i mean my steps have been fourteen point five

oh

k this entire process as well so

yeah

my movement has been very

yeah

high but actually it hasn't really been much of a grind at all i will say also i think it's been a easier

oh

because part of that is i've had

yeah

so much structure with my day to day and take like i haven't played macrotetress at all i have and essentially just following a meal plan i haven't been working at meals out or anything of the night here which i think people underestimate especially when it gets to a grindy part of the diet it's like man i would really love to like go have some chickfolit right so i'm going to work this in things of that nature i think people do under estimate how much of a

yeah

for me no it hasn't and really that much of grinded all

okay

to get down

yeah

to this last bit

yeah

i've

so

of course

where

been hungry

yeah

yes

so where i was going with that and trying to kind of get the reverse

uh

dieting conversation going here is

h

like if you're having so your numbers were like twenty three hundred and eighteen hundred on the five

hm

days at twenty three hundred and two days at eighteen hundred something like that

oh

so so at that point you're still losing weight on those numbers but when you're at a hundred and seventy seven pounds right now like what is what do you think your actual maintenance s a number where

oh

you wouldn't actually gain weight you wouldn't go to one seventy eight then one seventy nine then one eighty like you would actually able to maintain one seventy seven because i think this is a distinction and reverse dieting that that needs clarification do you want to expand on that striker and kind

yea

of maybe clarify what i'm trying to say for people

i will i will and

yeah

i'm really really glad you

yeah

brought that up because what we have here so jeremiah a couple of things you've thrown out like where would you say is like what you define is healthy now granted for the listeners out there just to reiteration like jeremiah is a coach in the space like he lives this lifestyle i think for people like that it is much more real dick to live a leaner life style when you are in the space

hm

because your world revolves around training

oh

and nutrition so that's a caveat there

yeah

what would

oh

you say like let's use a couple examples what would you estimate your body fat percentage to be at at that one seventy seven

i would say probably write around eight percent

very lean yeah i was going to say like seven to eight based off of like the few pictures that i saw what do you think is then like really good another question where where were you at when you started approximately body body weight

so i was right around one ninety nine when i started the diet

and what approximate body weight did you think or body fat percentage would you say you were at there

yeah

probably like thirteen to fourteen

and do you feel that that thirteen to fourteen was very manageable if you were like hey i just want to stay here forever for two years

yeah i feel i feel like that was very easy i think for me anywhere

ah

i would say probably

yeah

right around one ninety

oh

to one ninety five would

m

be i really feel when i'm around that like eleven to twelve percent more once i dip below that and i'm interested to see i do think this is something we can somewhat change over time but i know like after my first photoshucrap i

oh

did try to just stay

ah

as lean as i was and it was a year basically i just felt terrible and i could tell him like my energy level as my training performance my ability to build muscle my libido like all these all my vial feedback you could really tell like i was trying to stay too lean so and i definitely think i'm below point now as well

yeah and i think those are really

m

really great numbers to help frame up this conversation because it depends on where you're

yeah

fat levels and obviously that's going to change for everyone but for a majority of people unless your sport or activity is like very very very high maintaining a seven seven or eight you're at a point where you

m

have bio

oh

feedback in cations probably down regulated like indireand activity those sorts of things

yeah

that will impact your life that at like eleven to twelve percent let's say twelve which is a little bit like you know

oh

after you probably

oh

circumvent and you've put on going from seven percent to twelve per cent that's five percent body fat right there you've probably circumvented

oh

a large majority of that so that

yeah

where like

oh

the context in the nuance is really really beneficial in that let's say let's say you were starting your diet let's say your two hundred and forty pound jeremiah and you wanted to get down to two hundred pound jeremiah right

right

you could probably

yeah

maintain that two hundred pounds and like you know reverse some of some of the maybe food or whatever but you probably wouldn't necessarily have the negative bio feedback implications at two hundred pounds that you have at home in

hm

seventy seven pounds your thoughts there

oh absolutely and that's as you said i mean a lot of what we'll see within where our hormones for example is going to be tied to the actual amount of fat that we have on our body so for example

ah

like for a male client we can let's say post diet let's say we get this female client threaded but past a certain point

oh

like your body is going to sense okay we are so lean we have so little

yeah

fat on our frame basically think of that

yeah

as i enerviystores that if you were to for example

oh

get pregnant right now we wouldn't have the calories

oh

coming

ah

in we wouldn't have the energy available

yeah

to actually support like a healthy pregnancy

yeah

into support like growing in another human so because of that we'll see like these shifts and sex

yeah

for modes for example and that client might lose her mental cycle so within that like no er so if she's

oh

absolutely shredded no matter if we just took this slower verse siting process and

oh

let's say like reverse siding did magically work let's say she we got her eating twenty two hundred calories or twenty five hundred calories let's just throw a super high number out there but this client was still absolutely shredded let's say she was below her essential levels of body that so she was eight nine percent

oh

body that as a and which is going to be extremely lean no matter what like until

yeah

she regain some body that

oh

we're probably still not going to

oh

see the restoration of our minstrel cycle were probably

oh

still going to have terrible bia feed back again libido energy levels thing of that nature are going to be not far from the most situation so because of that like body fat i think that is a very important caveat where it's like

m

what's the goal after this right if all you care about is saying threaded still there probably going to be some some negative

oh

health implications

yeah

but even then for most people like after a foul last phase they do want to get back to okay i want to improve my physique for next time i get lean right so even then even if we could like just and some i mean to an extent maybe some people can do this but even if we could just like ram calories up if

oh

you get lean enough we are just gonna have to be okay with to get back to productive building to feel your t'stakin for like things like having an old minstrel cycle are just going to have the game back and body fig

yeah yeah

yeah go ahead bryan

jeremy what do you think your maintenance calories were at that weight that you feel like you can sustain a hundred and ninety five hundred ninety nine pound something like that

i would say probably somewhere around this is a rough

my

guest met but probably right around thirty three to thirty four hundred

and right now you're at a hundred and seventy seven pounds and we're not sure if this twenty one hundred average that you're eating would continue to help you lose weight or if it might just become your new maintenance at this point

i think i could lose a good bit more before it became my new maintenance but yeah

yeah so my point really is just that people talk all the time about you know we're going to reverse diet so we got to get your calories back to

yeah

of your current body weight or is it maintenance of like where you're trying to go because those two numbers are very different and so i think this kind of gets to the root of one of the things that needs to be clarified about reverse dieting so like what do you guys

oh

view and operate with your clients when you get to the end of a diet are you thinking hey they have a new maintenance now because there their body is smaller so i can slowly work up from this new maintenance or do you think like hey i need to get them back to what their old maintenance was because we need to get them out of you know these these or hormone responses that we're seeing

men take this one

so

first

get away

right so the first two things again that it's important to come up with and i would say in my you know opinion but in what i generally see with my coaching business it's often clients will come to you say like okay these are my maintenance calories they're wildly inaccurate right you'll have like

yeah

i had literally had a guy come to me is like six foot three two hundred and fifteen pounds told me his maintenance calories are like twenty four hundred

oh

calories and like okay

yeah

let's let's start here

yeah

um

yeah

so like once fortunately like once you've been around long enough you know coach enough people and have had enough like avatars you know because i let's say i've coached like three guys who are like jeremiah's kind of size sort of thing so like when once you have a handful of those

m

you can okay with this person we

m

did these sorts of things they were similar body size

yah

you know ball park type stuffbut

h

with the reverse it really depends like did they get lean enough to where they're actually going to have endicran disruption and poor bio feedback like if you're taking

m

someone from

hm

mal let's use male numbers here thirty

oh

percent body fat to

oh

a twenty percent body fat like

yeah

if anything there indicrin production is going to be better because we're just in a healthier state and that's where it's really important to bring in like specific not necesarily specific body fat percentage s but like what type of lean are we talking about right because lean is

oh

a subjective term right if you if you look at the traditional like if you go in now gold's gym and look at their

yeah

what the fuck is it called the body impudence analysis thing it will tell you that like twenty twenty to like twenty four percent body fats like

oh

normal and healthy were as like for i'm like de if i'm twenty four percent body fat like i'm fucking doing something

ah

wrong for months

oh

and

ah

months and months you know what i mean

yeah

so it's where i

yeah

kind of get frustrated with some of these conversations is like without providing more objective definitions around things or you're leaving it up for interpret ation and then like episodes like this need to happen right so i think it really comes back to lie where are you starting from are you getting are you just

hm

going from like hey i've been kind of overweight neglecting my you know health i just want to get back down to like sixteen to twenty percent body fat you know where i don't have a gut any more we don't really need to reverse

yeah

diet there you know because it's there's no adaptations or i'm sorry you could potentially use one there just two keep the client operating within a little bit more closer bounds so that they don't just poorly track their food and start putting fat back on because again a lot of it's going to be habit based and re framing how they view food and when a client comes to you at thirty per cent body fat obviously their habits and how they view food isn't really like well managed

yah

that you're probably going to put appreciable weight back on that isn't essential by any whereas in the terms of like jeremiah he needs well i did use the term essential improperly there but you get what i'm saying

hm

body fat

ah

yeah

that is going to help him live a

m

more normal

m

and less you know very very acutely managed life

yeah i feel like if he were to just jump his calories back up to that like assumed thirty three hundred maintenance number instead of like a current maintenance number i almost wonder if that is even like the same type of reverse dieting that this whole conversation is centered around

yeah

because to me

my

it just seems like you're you're mitigating the issue you're putting the fire out and then you you have this this this new number where the point is

m

to gain weight like you understand that ganywayis

m

happening so i think that the application of reverse dieting i think that is mostly being talked about as like the thing that you ouldn't do or that isn't supported by science is this idea of under seventy seven pound jeremiah

yeah yeah

starting

oh

at twenty one hundred calories or twenty two hundred or whatever that presumed maintenance is down there and then slowly adding twenty five calories or whatever the number is until he's worked his calories back up to that thirty three hundred number as opposed to just jumping there and then getting that that fire put out right does that sense

yeah and i think i mean when we're

yeah

talking about maintenance i think that there we also need to understand that like your maintenance should be changing as you're losing weight right your body is smaller so your basal metabolic great to an extent like even at rest to just keep a smaller body alive we're going to burn fewer calories right we're ating less food so the thermic effect the food decreases thermic effect of exercise of calories we burn like moving our body is going to decrease and

yeah

we did the thing right and we actually created a smaller body which to an extent is going to be our goal in a fat last phase like my maintenance should be decreasing so i also think like you shouldn't look at it as okay i'm not i have to get back to what my

yeah

mains was like let's say for me i did

yeah

just want to maintain one seventy seven and let's say that's something i could do in a healthy manner right let's say for me that was meat like twelve per cent bond fat michael was just to maintain that if my maintenance was let's say thirty seven hundred when i was two hundred pounds i shouldn't expect my maine to now be thirty seven hundred again because i'm twenty three pounds lighter right out my day to day everything that i do i'm gonna be burning less now again like

oh

increase a bit over time but yeah i think that how i've typically scene or thought of like the more traditional form of reverse it i think it's typically like people don't even look at it as like so right now like i don't consider let's say i think you said the average that i'm meeting is like twenty one hundred calories i wouldn't consider that current maintencebause i'm still losing like one to one and a half balance per week but

oh

i think how most like when we're talking about reverse siding in the traditional sense i think it's like okay you just finish this photo shoot prep now we're goin to add like fifty calories this week right and maybe over the next like twelve to sixteen weeks we're going to get you back to your maintenance and i don't think there's a ton of application for that whereas

m

typically how i look at it as with clients we're going to be like at the end of the deficit let's look at your rate of lost over the last couple of weeks right so let's just roughly and these numbers aren't perfect but let's say let's say you've lost perfectly one pound per week over the last couple weeks so we can assume we're

yah

in about a five hundred cellar defisite per

yah

day or thirty five hundred callrydefisite per week so typically like from my perspective i'm going to try to yet i don't want to overshoot this but i'm going to typically try to bump that person who at least eight to ninety percent of their estimated maintenance then let's look at body measure mental how weight is shifting let's look at by feedback from there again we can tip to up a bit further because most people also don't want to like now like in my situation where we do

yeah

i still like to try to get people back to maintenance as quickly

m

as possible and then honestly

m ah

how i

ah

how i look at the application of reversed item is actually kind of like once were right around what i estimate to be your maintenance again we know you're going to have

m

more energies you're moving more your body might be slightly heavier i don't tink this's going to be make a massive difference but we'll have replenished lin stores so maybe that could equate to a couple more calories burned per day again our neat levels are going to increase the thermic fact that food is going to increase we're probably going to e able to train a little bit harder

yeah

potentially maybe increase training volume a bit further which will increase our calory burn a bit more so like over time like once we're at me it's armance will slowly be increasing and so typically then like that's really how i look at like when we'e looking at more traditional like okay now maybe we're just adding like ten to fifteen grams of carbs or like fifty to a hundred fifty callers per week then typically there's something like four to six weeks span where we are like playing that

yeah but my question would just be maintenance of what because you're like we we won't we'll do this more typical reverse diet when we get them to maintenance but if you were one seventy seven what is

hm

maintenance and i mean is is it the maintenance the thirty seven hundred number that has two hundred pounds because that's the number is going to get you back to two hundred pounds like if you don't want to get to two hundred pounds then what is this this maintenance that keeps being thrown out here you know

yeah yeah so i mean

yeah

again i would roughly start by looking at if we reverse engineer

oh

okay what was your rate of loss so again let's say let's say your average seventeen hundred

m

calories per

yeah

day we were losing about homer we okay roughly we could estimate then your maintenance is probably right around twenty two hundred so let's try to get back to that number and again we're goin t expect like that first week were we taking more food yeah we're probably going to see most men gain back somewhere between two to four ish pounds of weight due to again more content increased gliconstor ings of that or women are probably going to be close to about one to three pounds

oh

and then from there it's essentially

yeah

looking at okay what

yeah

number keeps us relatively weight stable and when we're looking at body measurements again what number keeps us relatively stable in this regard as well so i look at like maintenance relative to maintaining like once we rplanihign stores accounted for increasing content after the first week end things of that nature

m

then like what number keeps us right around there does that answer that question

yeah i think that adds a little bit o clarity to it so in your specific example since we keep going back to you you might be looking at this

right

like the maintenance number that you're thinking about at this point

right right and that's the thing i mean because your maintenance

yeah

is going to i don't think we can ever perfectly nail maintenance

for

that's

sure

the

no one

other

showed

thing

you

is

yea yeah

because it's going to change every day right

yeah

even like if you measure things perfectly we're gonna they're going to be days where move a little bit less there's gonna be it things days we move a little bit more but again i think it's just important to keep in mind like i guess so yes and like is the goal to regain weight is the goal to basically maintain your current body composition but again understanding like that's no going to be the same as your maintenance calories were when you started the fat lost phase if

yeah

than what you had before

correct because if you go back to

oh

the number that you started at then you're just going to go right back to that body weight again

right right and

ah

you'll probably regain until you get to that body weight

yeah

and then once again that will until that essentially becomes your maintenance

correct yeah striker jump on in baby you're on mute

yeah

yeah

sorry about that

yeah

one thing that i what the what your or the clients goal is is a really really important part that comes into it so one thing where i will take an approach that is

yah

was not

ah

touched on in the stronger by science um episode is kind of approaches let's say someone's let's say a client's and goal is a hundred and eighty pounds right yeah so a couple of ways that we could approach it we could for picking very very simple straight forward numbers we could diet them to a hundred

yeah

and seventy pounds and then just jump calories back up to an estimated man set that one eighty and you will put weight back on quicker you will also have to fight a little bit longer to go from that like one seventy five to one seventy those last weeks of dieting which jeremy probably attest you are probably some of the hardest because you've just been doing fatigue is higher highest or more or less

oh

or we could say hey we can diet you to one seventy five and then slowly start putting food back in it makes the dieting easier your rate of loss slows down but when we're said and done we still end up at about that hundred and eighty pounds that is an approach that well commonly take with clients that are not trying to get like super super lean and their bio feedback is kind of starting to shift a little bit or they're just kind of getting to the point where there i personally don't think

hm

where so much of the kind of vagueness comes in or what the stronger by science episode really touched on people will kind of use it to like persist lot lies around like it super charges your metabolism or it like makes dieting easier

oh

in the future or a lot of these things and that's where some of the parts when i listened to it i was like oh i didn't realize people were claiming these sorts of things you know i

m

personally had always just used it as a way to ant constrained here a little bit on the back end of dieting because i know from you know the few clients

m

that i have let really open the reins at the end of a diet people it's a psychological thing people have a hard time keeping a cap on it

oh

so like if we've just been feeding you

ah

seventeen hundred calories and i'm like okay brian here you go you know your photo shoots over here's your three thousand like

hm

what did you do brian you did not stick to that three thousand

no i went to five thousand

exactly

uh

of course

and i think

h

like the hard thing with this conversation is we are we're talking like not necessarily theory but we're talking textbook application when

hm

you know measurements and food are accurate in these sorts of things but if i'm being completely honest like

my

just and your clients to accurately track is probably seventy five percent of the game and of itself so

yeah

from what i have personally found is like if i give them a wide open door but say hey you got to stop at the end of the door you know what i mean like they don't where if i frame it up is the hardest part of our diet is now over but i still frame them in the mind set of we're not done there's light at the end

hm

of the tunnel it gets easier from here but we're not done they're able to adhere much longer and then not blow that out and it allows us to just control the overshooting of calories

hm

over what their approximate maintenance you know would be at our fifteen percent reduced body mass or whatever

hm

and it just helps us ve or better control the human psychological aspect of it

hm

large part

i love that dude

ah

i actually much appreciate that very much appreciate that you displayed that context for us because i do think that that makes a lot of sense and provides a good use case my question i guess is one of the things that seems very difficult about reverse dieting is the super small increments that things are increased by and how meticulous

m

someone must be in that case and the psychological impact potentially of having to be so meticulous and then also in the same question the difficulty of coaching that when you understand that things like nutrition labels and eyeballs are going to be at least like a twenty person variance

oh

before you even begin marking anything down so like how do you guys kind of make sense of that

yeah

like the miticulous nature of it the psychological effect and then the variance

yeah

of the inability to actually know the ambiguity of knowing whether it's actually accurate anyways

yeah i mean i think if

yeah

we look at like what it takes for someone to lose body fit i don't like we also have to be pretty meticulous in that process so from my perspective i honestly don't think like coaching no matter what

yeah

i think as coaches we have to assume that like there is still going to be a decent bit of room for error like in reality what most people think is like i'm a hundred percent on point is realistically more like eighty percent on point

oh

and we have to be okay with that right so

m

oh

no matter what there is gonna be some room for error but i think like by the time at least in my experience by the time someone has successfully completed the fat loss phase they've come

yeah

to grips with okay this is how i accurately have to measure my food is

oh

how accurately have to track my food

ah

no matter what

m

there is going o be some

m

room for error

ah

but i also think that it's again like accepting like

yeah

this might not be perfect and something that

yeah

i like to put out to my clients as well in the post diet period is most people will have like at least a couple times where it's like man i kind of went off the rails there there's typically at least couple of days like that but as you said aron like having some

m

element of structure around that because also like most clients

oh

we've worked with have been able successfully lose in the past it's maintaining that result that has more or less

yeah

been

yeah

the struggle still

oh

if we can approach it and more

oh

in a more structured manner to where it's not like okay the diet is over here a thousand plus calories just go to your thing

yeah

i think that typically leads to

oh

people relapse are not necessarily relapsing

m

but more or less going back to their old habits

yeah

where i think like accepting hey this might not be perfect but we're still going to have a much larger element of structure and it's probably going to be much better go much better than the alternative from my perspective that's the thing there i

oh

extra five hundred steps actually want you add

yeah

like two more grams of cars on top of that or

yeah

something of that nature like

yeah

i don't think it's realistic for us to take

yeah

it to that point and i still like to give clan it's like rangers to work with like the rangers that we prescribe are still like we once you hit these targets

m

plus minus a hundred so inherently we're still working with a broad range because i think that's just what it's realistic for most people so i don't think either of

oh

these options is perfect but i just think it's the better alternative for us to just frame this is something where do have a little bit more structure going into the post i period does does that make sense i don't know if he strike er you have more to add to that

i mean i truly

m

it's hard for me because i truly think

uh

like you said the post diet period is everything so many people lose the weight so many people are sorry not nearly as many people can maintain it and again

hm

it comes back to how realistic that might be based on how lean you got but let's say let's let's take the prime example we are taking a mail from like a twenty four percent body fat to like a fourteen right here's no doubt in my mind that people shouldn't be able to maintain that it just takes some continued structure and explaining you know i mean the people out there listening like i'm sure jeremiah will attest to this fifty percent of quality coaching if not more is

yeah

communicating really really well just saying like hey the lifestyle you lived at twenty four percent body fat created you being at twenty four per cent body fat if you want to maintain fourteen percent body fat that's going to require a different lifestyle and different habits and i've just found much much more success in loosely giving them a little bit more range like hey you know we're and i guess it really kind of depends on how you structure like reversing i

m

am very rarely making an increase less than a hundred calories more generally in like the two hundred to two hundred and fifty

m

um i'll go bigger in the beginning because i know let's say we diet someone to

m

i don't know i like nineteen hundred

m

ye

calories

ye

and let's say their maintenance you know at the new body it will be somewhere like twenty seven hundred i'll do like a two hundred and fifty calory jump when you when you've only when your carbshave been like at body weight or below like that's all the room in the world for new food you know what i mean like people's eyes

hm

fucking light up when you do that and then from there generally take it from like four to eight weeks some people are going to go a little bit know better with better control so we'll go faster some people are a little bit slower but it's more food

yeah

each week and as long as we don't have a crazy

m

shift outside of what we would expect with

yeah

what jeremiah alluded to gut contents water manipulation gen those sorts of things were still on track there so i think it's just i don't know it's it's what i personally do the last thing this was a note that i i had down that i forgot to bring up but jeremy i'm curious you're your thoughts on this

oh

to one thing that i find common with not all clients but maybe about a third maybe forty percent it's very very common myself is at the end of dieting face for digestive quality to start to tank so if

hm

if digestion starts getting a little if we start getting a little bit more gas as we add food back in if i'm just like here you go and extra twelve hundred salaries it's generally not going to go well because digestive quality has diminished and that can

h

be for

m

various reasons as you provide your body a much smaller amount of food for a period of time in a day so we start producing less hydrochloric acid we might start to down regulate endzemes and stuff like that and when you just ramp it all back your digestion is going to be a mess

yes

so that's another reason why i do prefer to take it slower is because it's more than just numbers on paper their multiple kind of downstream impacts of hey here's a thousand more calories today sort of thing

ah

absolutely

so the the thing i like about what you said aron is the big jumps and calories the two hundred to two fifty type thing because i feel like that goes against a little bit like that what that does is it's more of the way that people lose weight like you usually will make adjustments as you go like okay you know the scale is kind of stuck okay we'll drop another two under two fifty calories whatever it is those are our big enough adjustments to actually be able to feel the difference and feel

oh

so that was kind of the point i was getting at before with the meticulous nature is that in reverse dieting

m

you often see these prescriptions

yeah

that are like increase ten grams of carbs a day or you know whatever that comes out to that's seventy a week that's kind of ridiculous so maybe it's like twenty grams every third day or something along those lines

oh

you know there's such small numbers that it becomes almost impossible for somebody to actually implement those without just worrying that maybe there's just error in the food they're eating or the colic ations or any of these other variables so it is that is that kind of commonly how you guys have thought of or heard of reverse dieting as well or is this just unique to me

the thing that's hard there is even through me listening to the stronger by science episode a lot of it was even kind of new to me or i was like oh i did realize like like one of the one of the things here i have the note down like reverse dieting super charges your metabolic rate like i

yeah

didn't know that people are out there like preaching that so i think

yeah

like what you said brian yeah

yeah

with

ah

it's hard it's hard tracking your caloric intake is hard to be really really accurate

yeah

especially as variety

oh

increases and your control over directly

m

m m

preparing

m

your foods goes

hm

down and i think if you're like hey here's five carbs this week i mean that's well within a margin of air

yeah

i mean

i mean we don't die it that way no one's like

m

hey every day this week i want you to eat five less carbs than the day before like could you imagine

ah

um

yeah

the one time i will

oh

say where

m

i do start to

m

slowly adjust and i believe jeremiah alluded to this but i'll have you try don't go words in your mouth is when we are like hey i think we're really close

my

now and i don't want to overshoot by giving you an extra

right

like you know two hundred and fifty calories if we're maybe realistically twenty under and then you know you go whatever two hundred and thirty over for seven days

yeah

and now we're up you know like an eighth of a pound or something like her

uh

eight tenths of a pound or whatever

ah

and i

yeah

agree i think like the smallest adjustment

oh

i'll typically make would probably be like fifty calories and even then understanding it's not perfect

yeah

it sounds

yeah

like you tube might be in slightly different corners of instagram than i so i just

yeah

want to speak to one more thing here because i think that a lot of what they're addressing is there are a lot of people out there talking about hey you are an individual right now you're only eating like a thousand twelve hundred calories and you can't lose weight so people are more i think what they're addressing here is this idea that so you need to reverse diet and we're going to super charge your metabolism and then when you get into the process of trying

yeah

to lose body fat you're gonna be to lose on like

oh

eighteen hundred calories so i think more what they're addressing is like people framing it as this is what you need to do to successfully die in the

kay

future rather than like you've already gone through successful that loss and then you need to diet so like you see a lot of like i'm the metabolism rebut coach or something that in that nature right so i mean like

m

this is a relatively common

m

when we could probably frame this within our coaching service as like a reverse diet if we wanted to as well and like this is the reverse diet transformation were like this woman couldn't lose on twelve hundred calories before now we got her threaded on seven re calories or some of the nature but it's not it's

yeah

not actually the case so like to speak

yeah

that a little bit more like it's extremely common for a new client to start and they'll report hey i'm only in twelve hundred collars and aron i know said like your client who was like six three two twentiance that his maintenance was like twenty four hundred whereas typically what's going

m

on there is oftentimes it is like five days of the week this

oh

individual is really under eating only in like

oh

a thousand to twelve hundred calories but then it's typically either hey in the evenings or over the week ends there are very large influxes of calories coming in that is enough to offset any defisite that they created throughout the week so they're still like at very least at maintenance and here i think it's important to understand like there so like this is a new situation like when we'll start a lot of clients in a situation like this in something like somewhat similar to our verse diet

yeah

to light ole i guess like hey we you this person was eating twelve hundred now they're eating under losing but i think it's important to understand like there's

ah

a difference here between under eating and under fueling right where a lot of times these individuals are somewhat they're not undereading but they are somewhat under feeling so for example like in a situation like this typically what we'll do is first and foremost we want to look at removing those scenarios where they're

m

over eating right so often times it's like hey if we just bring our calories up more throughout the week maybe like at night you're not going a be as likely to way over to it or you're not going to way over to it on the weekends right so we're eating more five days out of the week so you don't constantly feel like you're starving any more we re also going to focus further

yeah

on you micronutrine in take right so because of that and again i mean maybe we'll see this isn't going to be a crazy shift maybe we'll see like if we're getting into more of you be item and selenium zinc things of that nature and maybe we're going abetter your thyroid and yeah maybe you would see like a slight upraliation and metavlism because of that we're

oh

going to get you eating

yeah

and typically like individuals like this as well are

yeah

underating protein and carps and typically over eating fats even if they healthy or fast so because of that and again we'll know like we'll

yeah

have a slightly higher thermic effect with protinian carbs but as a

yeah

whole and oftentimes

oh

as well like

ah

we're an i just kind of

yeah

rambling here but i want like for

oh

the listener to understand oftentimes we will see like if we go through eight to twelve weeks of this process we typically will see like this person has achieved a pretty impressive recall right that can make it seem like wow that reverse diet was crazy we increased calories the entire time and i really saw these solid shifts in body composition but really within that again we're getting this person eating more protean garbs and typically the same into it was

oh

training super early in the morning training fasted and not even until like new so then it's okay if we're having you better fuel let's we're going to eat some cars and some protein before you train we're goin to have a post were got meal so you're better recovering okay we probably

oh

yeah

are going to build more muscle alongside that were shifting the training stimulus so

yeah

this is also very common like someone coming from an orange try background or even cross fit and as you guys are very aware of like when we transition that stimulus to a hypertrophy stimulus we

oh

have them actually eating before their training and a better optimizing recovery the person can also typically build some muscle we're also focusing on hey can we increase your steps over time and we're getting them tracking accurately typically like in a situation like that and we're also focusing on satiety right we're also focusing on food qualities so you're eating

oh

more fibrous carbs and again more protein and things of that nature so typically like when all those things add up that person is actually across the week eating less calories but five days of the week because again they are eating more filling foods and we actually have them eating more fit into the wee we're just getting

yeah

rid of these dramatic swings and calory intake across the course of the week typically feel like they're eating more and also typically we're getting them tracking a lot more accurately than they were previously so a lot of people ninety nine percent of the time when someone starts like the number someone gives you as i'm eating aron i'm sure

ah

you can speak of this as well like everyone comes in hey i'm eating like this very low amount halla and it will understand why i can't lose and then when it's like we dig into tracking accuracy and things of that nature is like okay let's add another five hundred seven galleries on top of

yeah

that intake right so then

oh

it's typically like the person is actually eating less it is if they lost body fat is always they're actually eating less than

ah

they were before because they're tracking accurately it's

oh

like what i thought was twelve hundred callis s actually seventeen hundred to eighteen hundred calories right so because of that

oh

it can look like and again like these things like you've added more muscle your better fuel you're not fucking starving throughout the entire week because we've

yeah

shifted all these things in your food composition your meal time and things in nature

yeah

we will see like you got leaner you built muscle we achieve some pretty solid re comp and it does look like you're eating more than you were before but again that's largely an illusion and it's a we can definitely market it as like if we wanted to we could market it as like holy ship look how good i am at reverse dieting and here's why everyone should work with me but it's not actually that person is necessarily eating more than they were before but i really

yeah that was incredibly well said and

yeah

i think if if you're like a listener to this right and

oh

maybe this is a little bit new to you like everything that jeremiah

ye

just outlined there i would say is probably the most profound take away that you will get from the podcast so it's something that's very very it's a very real situation people grow lee under estimate their intake to know like kind of real

oh

fault of their own

yeah

oh

but it's people are just they're trying

ye

with the skills and tools that they have theirs per fucking hungry they can hold it together throughout

yeah

the week and then in social outings blahblablah whatever grossly over consume on the weekend and they're really just like they're shooting themselves

yeah

in the foot right because they don't

yeah

stand a fighting

m

chance but by going through those things that you outlined giving them more food the interesting thing i always really like around the terminology more is how are we quantifying more volume

right

are calories right

i

because like i'll play the volume game all day and when

m

like that's one of the things when a client will like we'll start out like twenty four hundred calories and won get the next check and man i'm really really hungry i'm like if you're at twenty four to twenty five hundred calories and you're telling me you're hungry i'll show you someone who has poor food selection like and so i think what that is

yeah

you have to stand a fighting chance of hey feeling yourself right not crushing yourself with fast at high intensity workouts and this is where you can eat more right more

right

appropriate you know distribution more accurately controlled more nutrient density you briefly touched on things of thyroid in that nature and that one's real that's

oh

another that's another one we didn't really touch on where reverse

yeah

dieting can actually a version of reverse siding is probably better as opposed to just being like well here's maintenance fucking deal with the fat game that comes with it like so sort of thing but that's a tangent but i think like that what you outline there is really really really really well said

yeah

and then men into that situation and typically what we will see because also like if this person is starting say they think they're in tecustelveunr calls per day just psychologically they're not i hit you with okay we're going to start at eighteen hundred calories or two thousand because the don't

oh

think you're tracking accurately they're not goin t be able to handle that but even then as you said typically we'll be okay let's start just fifteen hundred but it's going to be fifteen hundred every day of the week

yeah

it typically

oh

will be

m

okay next week

oh

another hundred

yah

then another fifty then

h

another fifty

yeah

so very much will appear like

oh

reverse did but again it's more

m

so those factors than is

oh

yeah

actually the

yeah

reverse diet

psychological game is huge brian did you

absolutely

have omething to say

ay yeah i definitely think that we hang out in a different corner of instagram than jeremiah

oh

and

i'm very surprised you guys haven't seen

yeah

this

well

everywhere

have i mean i've seen so i've seen some

m

of i've seen bits and pieces of all the

oh

illusions that tresler laid out on stronger by science but i will say that something i really struggled to relate to is this idea of somebody coming to you and saying i am eating twelve

m

hundred calories a day and not losing weight

oh

when they're blatantly aware that they're going off the rails on the weekends or in the p m or

m

whatever the time they're going off the rails is like just

yeah

i just

yeah

kind of don't maybe i'm callous i can't empathize with this i feel like this person is lying to themselves

oh

and they're kind of lying

oh

to you in there lying to the internet to say i can't lose weight on twelve hundred calories when they're blatantly obviously eating twelve hundred times five plus thirty six hundred times two and m and i don't know that just like it kind

yeah

of baffles my mind that that would even be something that people do you know

i think it's

incredibly common

i think brian

ah

what it is is like

oh

you've you're just so deep in this world and you have

oh

been for so long you know even with the gym and everything that's i think that's what it is because it even happens to me sometimes but like you don't know where people's backgrounds are you know and through working with a lot of clients like you'd be amazed at what you see in people just they just don't know yet

yeah

that's

but even if

yeah

i

it

was just this person who had no no knowledge of calories and i

m

came to a coach and i'd be like hey look i'm fucking starving during the week

m

but you

yeah

know what i do on the weekends i eat a ton of foo

oh

like that would be the way i would say this to a coach not nothing twelve hundred collars every day and i can't lose weight

oh

like it just seems like blatant lying

m

you know

i'm

i don't think that's at all the intention truly it's never like

yeah

yeah i don't think it's anyone trying

m

to lie is much more so i think especially if you've never tracked it's almost like you've never looked at the price tags when you go shopping before right so it's just like oh

ah

like you never check your credit card state man like

yes

i

ah yeah

really i genuinely think it's much more

ay

so like ducation people don't understand

m

like how many calories are in the olive oil that you put in the pan when you

oh

cook for example or like that peanut butter isn't a great protein source right so it's like hey

right

this is mostly

right

protein i'm just going to or even like the difference between like what you estimate to be two tablespoons

yeah

of peanut butter versus if we actually measured that shoot

yoh

out which is such a sad thing or even like

yeah

getting about that fourth and fifth glass of wine you had i generally i don't think it's like people to

being

be

malicious

able

or whatever

yeah

right

yeah

it's just people need education right

yeah but i mean even if it's something is like hey i'm hungry a lot of the days a week and then i'm not hungry on the weekend like even that would be

oh

helpful information for a coach to have versus like yeah i'm starving all the time

but that's part of why coaches are needed as well

yeah that's fair

yeah

yeah i'm just very removed from that so so i guess like in that sense you know you guys are doing a great service over there

uh

yeah

anything

oh

else you guys want to touch on on this one i think we've covered the my kind of big notes but

oh

i want to make sure that anything from brian in jeremy we've we've covered adeptly

i'm good man i asked all my questions of you guys and i feel like the listeners

oh oh

should have a decent clarification on

m

kind of our thoughts on reverse dieting and then application of how to get out of a deficit based on

oh

where you are at the beginning of your kind of increase calories

yeah so i mean kind of let's try and wrap this up a little bit the leaner you get if you are

oh

lean to the point where it's just not sustainable and you i mean for you for us that you say this

yeah

i may over speak here a little bit but you're going to have very visible apse

yeah

you're you're not you're going to be lean lean you're probably going to do i shouldn't even say probably you're going to do much better with a very large increase to point that's going to put on some body fat again yes but get you to a point where bio feedback is now better maybe you have an interest in having sex again is a really really good part of bio feedback maybe some morning with those sorts of things if you are someone who's maybe only dieting to like

yeah

eating a thousand calories and you say here we go week one twenty four hundred calories lie they're gonna have a fucking melt down it's the same

right

thing like the for some reason more food just fuck with people's minds the same way that starting a

oh

diet process

oh

will sometimes i have a client who's literally perfectly adherent we're doing fantastic in their numbers seven out of seven days week one of the diet i take them from like twenty eight hundred calories to like a twenty five fifty and the fucking wheels fall off like bro it's two hundred and fifty calories whatever three undred fifty calories like what happened the psychology aspect is quite large and

oh

i definitely don't want to us to just skip over it because psychology influences physiology in the decisions that we make and it is important to at least consider

hm

i think that's a very important caveat as well and i mean we work with a lot of clients too who have been like in a qotnquotedieting mind set for a very long period of time but again are in the cycle of life then i like completely

oh

fall off the wheels or like i have this uncontrollable

kay

snacking and a lot of times again it is like we again so we do

yeah

okay

use this like sim

yeah

reverse siting esk process at the start of working with someone very frequently but a lot of times it is like hey we have to push

m

we have to get you in a good psychological place like healthier relationship with food we have to get you okay with consistently focused on a more food we have to get ue like away from only eating fifthograms of protein to like let's try to get close to one grand per pound of

oh

bodily and we have to improve all these things before we can actually put you in a position where it's healthy for you psychologically to diet and then alongside that you can actually have the body composition you want at the end of the diet so like but we don't necessarily frame it as a reverse diet so i do think there is a like application to something similar to this but it's not because its super charges your metabolism and your betabolis is gonna be crazy quick and dietdnis

yeah

going forward

well

well said

said

yep

oh

cool so i guess to wrap this thing up jeremiah can you

m

drop your plugs in here where can people find you where can people reach out for coaching if they're interested in all of that good stuff

absolutely so first off once again i am super appreciative for the two of you having me on here it is always great to chat with you guys you can check out our podcast is living lean you can follow me on instagram at jeremiah bear our coaching company is elevated coaching system you can go their elevated coaching systems dot com we have tons of blogs there super in depth around losing that building muscle and our coaching application is there as well

awesome so

sweet

again thank you for joining

m

us from myself brian borstin and jeremiah bar guys thank you for listening we'll talk to you well brian and i will talk to you next week