Welcome to Destiny.
Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.
I got to say this about today's podcast. This is the first time that I've had a weather incident. We got snow on the East Coast. I'm here in northern California, in the San Francisco Bay Area. I think most people know that, and we have We've had a bad rain for the last We've had a consistent rain for the last week. But on the East Coast they're having blizzards and the snow has affected a lot of people's flights and activities. And this week's guest I had to cancel.
They had to cancel Earth Aches. It's like get on the phone. The thing is, it's not just the audio version, it's the video version two, which is why we do. We work with Zoom and we're gonna be hopefully we're gonna be transitioning into Riverside in the next month or so so we get clearer images. But today's program is kind of a special edition slash carryover from another Earth
Ancients program. But you know what, I shouldn't feel too bad because Destiny is Earth Ancient's little sister, and that means that what we have to offer is, you know,
in the same vein in many ways. And so my guests itday is going to be archaeologist Jen Dalo talking about the problems the archaeological community faces with new technology like stars with light art and what this is revealing and why I'm bringing jin on is simply this the archaeologists who are university trained, which is most of them. You don't get your PhD without going through the program
of a university in the Western culture. But my whole problem is it looks like they're not teaching original thinking or critical thinking on a lot of topics. And we're going to talk about stars, the amazing technology that was used in the Giza plateau. We're going to talk about other issues that are coming up that are critical to the future not only of archaeology, but of history and
understanding history. And here's an example. I have recently invested in artificial intelligence systems that are designed for specific things. I'm using chat GPT, I'm using Venice AI, and i might be using Claude and I'm not sure I'm testing it right now. But what I've been discovering is using unique prompts. And these are the questions that you pose to this machine learning brain. When you ask a detailed question,
you get a really really good answer. I have discovered, and I'm continuing discover that with the right prompt and the right content and data, you can extract very very unique answers to questions of anomalies. And one of my great anomalies are any if you've been listening to you know what I'm talking about Colossi sculptures, thirty forty fifty foot tall Egyptian sculptures. How the hell do they do those? One of the big ones I'm writing about this is
the sculptures at Abu Sabil. And what makes these unique is that when you ask AI, was this temple with these sculptures commissioned by Ramseys? Because Egyptologists believe that Ramsey did write a request for this, Well, it's not true. What they asked for were a second phase, which is these temples that are cut into the sandstone. The big
question is how do they cut them, what techniques? And when you're specific with AI, basically they say it's an anomaly based on the known equipment that was used during that Phuronic period. I think it's Middle Kingdom. And this is what's fascinating to me is that I used to be frustrated with AI because it wasn't really using creative thinking. It was taking whatever data was being used in just dumping it on you, and it was like frustrating. Now and I'd say this is within the last twenty four
months for me. Now it's becoming a really good tool. And when you offer prompts, and remember prompts are the questions, the details, the data that you would like to extract from AI. When you use specific prompts, you're getting back really creative answers. And I have to tell you, Jen and I went over this back and forth on a
couple of topics and it was just mind blowing. And it's opened up a whole new avenue for me as a journalist and also a podcaster, to the point where we're going to actually have some panel discussions with different archaeologists who are now investigating and looking into artifacts, temples, pyramids, and buildings as well as sculptures from a number of well known civilizations and reviewing them and getting back fantastic answers. And this is the hint that I will provide you
right now. It's validating the great possibilities of an earlier civilization and that's wild, so wild, it's making me go back in some chapters of it and thinking, Okay, here are the props, here are the answers, and this what else can you think about? You know, here's some more ideas. So today's program is going to be fun. So this is a special edition with our friend Jendo, and we cover a lot of ground today. So the theme is
a new archaeological perspective on history. Hey, you know, when this weather is as bad as it's been and it's freezing cold, you don't want to jump into the kitchen and cook anything. If you're like me, you're busy. You want to work as long as you can and then take a break and have your food ready to eat,
to consume, to nourish you. Factor offers a number of meal types that you can choose from during these cold weather days that are lean protein, colorful vegetables, and food ingredients that are healthy that don't retain lots of sugar, artificial sweeteners or refine seed oils. Factor provides one hundred different rotating meals that you can choose from throughout the winter. If you're on a special diet or you're on a
program like I am THEGLP one support systems. Factor has the solution of that with unique meals that are designed just for you. And again you don't have to worry about it. You just pop them in the oven or the microwave for a couple of minutes and they're ready.
They're easy to cook, and man do they satisfy. Head to Factor Meals dot Com Forward Slash Earth Agents fifty off and use the code Earth Ancients fifty off to get fifty per cent off your first box, which includes a free breakfast for a year eat like a pro this month with Factor. This is for new subscribers only and varies by plan. One free breakfast item per box for one year while your subscription is active. Again that is Factor Meals dot Com Forward Slash Earth Ancients fifty off.
I love Factory and I think you will too. It's about time we've had Jen Dale on the program. I received a few emails when I mentioned her a couple of weeks ago, and people are like, what happened to Jendale? We miss her? And I do too. I do miss Jen. She's busy as hell, but we thought we would meet today.
It talk over some issues that are prominent and the beauty of Jendale is of course, she's a field archaeologist and has done you know, field work excavating sites, and so she knows exactly what's the one I'm talking about. And she's a perfect fit for earthatist because she questions her own field like you know, which is great. So we have her on today and we're going to talk about a few topics that have been in the news
and that I need questions answered for. So, hey, Jen see, I have been good to see you too.
I'm I'm making it.
Yeah, we should just mention real quickly. You work for PBS, and you guys are hanging in there, aren't you.
I do.
I work for public radio, so I am in the I work at Minnesota Public Radio in particular. So it's it's been quite harrowing these last two months.
Wow. Yeah, good, But things are hopefully going to work out. That's the that's outside. Yeah. So so great to have you and see you and always interact with you. I want to talk about a few areas that have been troubling for me simply because the academic community isn't responding in my belief in a positive manner to some of these new discoveries, and some of these topics that we're talking about today have been on the program. We've had representatives from the various fields that we are going to
speak about, and I want your opinion. I want you to talk about it. So the first one is the SARS research, this synthetic aperture radar that was done in Giza at the Kufu Pyramid and the pyramids in complete scan and what happened was and we've had all the experts, including BEYONDI who developed the three D modeling that came on. Here. We are looking at engineer's work and engineers are going, yes, this is here, there's something underneath the pyramids. But the
Egyptological community is quiet. In fact, Zahi Jouass has said this is all hogwash without really looking at the data. So what's going on? What's going on?
One might think that, you know, they'd want to do that a bit sooner just to figure out, you know, what indeed is going on underneath there. In my opinion, just knowing what I do know what little I do know about SAR technology, It's a technology that's been in use for you know, a significant amount of time. It's not new technology. It's just perhaps new technology to you know, the average person who wouldn't Why would you not necessarily
know about SAR technology. It's been used by military and governments all over the world, whether they're using it for military work or checking out other countries and what they might have going on in more rural and desert situations. So I think that I don't think it's new. I think that it is just coming to the surface. Maybe what we're seeing is information that's, you know, coming up now that we have more access to it.
Give us some examples of what you've discovered of its application outside of the military, because I had a guy come on when he was on the program, but he talked to me he was ex military, and the military has been using it for at least two decades. But what are some of the other applications that you've found.
Well, I know that they've used it in parts of Africa, drought written parts of Africa to identify where wells are or the possibility of wells, So it's been used for maybe more humanitarian work. I know that just in previous iterations when I've looked at old SAR maps or readoubts
of the information that they give, they've also investigated. I think that's how they've found certain sites in more desert or arid landscapes because as they're very obvious, you don't have to necessarily worry about cities or structures that might exist beyond that city that you know could somehow differentiate
your readout or your results of the reading. But I think I think here's my key takeaway on SAR technology and just what we've seen maybe over the last fifteen years, ten to fifteen years, archaeologists employing different tactics to get at the archaeological mostly architecture, or getting into sites that they wouldn't ordinarily have access to, whether there's war there or it's just area that you know you would have a harder time getting access to, like I'm thinking of
the Amazon, or even like a desert like the Gobi Desert or the Sahara. I think that these technologies give us access to play is that you know, historically we
haven't had access to just because of their location. But also you know it perhaps is less expensive when you think of all of the different satellites floating up above us taking in this information and having access to that information just based on the fact that there are so much, so many more satellites capturing not necessarily just SAR, but capturing information about our planet that maybe we haven't known that they were capturing, or maybe that uh, they didn't
know that we needed to know. So I think it's I think it's very layered and how we understand.
I always asked for I always, of course, you know me a very dramatic I wait for you to go there are fools, just fools. That's not your thing, And of course I would never expect you to talk like that. But it gets to the point where it's like, when are you just gonna lay down and say, this is technology that I don't understand, but it looks like it could be valid or I have questions even if they
were to say I have questions. As an example, the three D rendering from the raw data that is up to the interpretation of the the technician who takes the data and converts it to three D beyond y Filippo Beyondi, who's the architect of it, had some very interesting renderings of the CUFU pyramid when he first did it, including rooms and stuff like that that I would kind of maybe question, but they don't even question that. They don't even allow it into the the discussion.
Yeah, I isn't that interesting. I've thought about that too. I actually listened to that episode of Earth Ancients, and I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if you know, all of these experts within that SAR community came forward and said, oh, well, I might you know, I might look at this a different way, or I might interpret this this way, And they don't have that. It's just we don't accept this. We don't accept this information, which I think is really problematic.
I mean, either disprove it, but don't just pooh poo it without investigating it. It's something that needs to be investigated by a multitude of different like where's the where are the engineers? I would love to hear an engineer's summary of that data. I do think it's interesting that the folks that have come out have made you know, I don't think an assumption is the right word, but the assertion that this is some sort of engineering feat
which it would be. Why aren't we having that conversation Because the fact that there are voids underneath this massive structure, that's just the start of the conversation. In my opinion.
Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't know if you've looked at the renderies, but it is kind of wild. There's elongated tubes ago half a mile that have what look like stairways, yeah, circling there. I'm like, well, how'd you get that? And then there's there's big boids that look very square, like they're huge halls that are another half a mile below. So it's very very deep under the ground. And I mean it's like, is this a whole different world?
And that's the speculation. This is a whole area that has never been identified, and I wonder if that's what it is. Also, it's so radically new they can't get their mind around it. It's like, this doesn't make sense. This is not the Pyramids, this is not the king Queen's Chamber or the Grand Hall or whatever you know it's And so I think it's overwhelming.
Yeah, I do think it's interesting. And I so I was thinking about this the other day when you you know, you invited me to talk, and I thought, isn't it interesting? The majority of archaeologists want to know how things are used, and I approach it very differently. I want to know how things are made. That's that's the interesting thing to me, Like how did they make this? And I think that that's the approach. I mean, so now when I look at those renderings, I think, how did they do this?
That's the first thing that occurs to me. Whereas I think that others approach it. How was this used? Well, it was used as a burial, it was used as you know, it was ceremonial or whatever it might be. So I think, and I do believe this is true. I think things are changing. I think the approach is changing where archaeologists, you know, I don't get to know how things were used, but I can discover how things were made. That's still an option, you know what I mean.
So if I understand, if I understand how some thing's made, then perhaps I can apply some utility to it, Like then I can see, well, if I made it like this, it would have to be waterproof or whatever. I'm making stuff up. But I just think the approach is really necessary to change the paradigm within archaeology.
I don't know if it's the training or the fact that you're using books that are hundreds of years old and you're being tested on that knowledge and the professors are saying, you cannot bend this. This is what's been you know, steadfast for decades. And by the way, you will not be granted a PhD unless you acknowledge this as the right focus of your career. I don't know if that's it, and it pushes out creativity or original thinking or whatever, but it's kind of challenging for.
Me to see.
Well.
Yeah, I mean it's like bowling the bumper pads are always up right, only you just bounce off of things that aren't agreed with. I think that there are a number of new archaeologists coming out, especially now, where I think all I think all of what we have been taught up until now is being questioned, and rightfully so, because I think that there's what you're speaking of, the certain level of indoctrination that happens within the university system.
And I loved my education, liberal arts all the way, the liberal arts. But let's just agree, is archaeology is science, or is archaeology and art, because there's a lot of it's very gray in there, and I think aspects of it are very very scientific. Yeah, but someone picking up a potshirt and you know, making determinations about people. People are not potshirts, they're people.
It's a very good point. That's a very good point. We were having an Italian engineer on the program in the fall. His name is Alberto Danelli, who has recently used a technology to date the Great Pyramids and he has come up based on the erosion of between twenty and forty thousand years ago.
Wow.
He publishes his data and so when they keep pushing the dates back, we're looking at a complete, completely different world because we don't know the cultures that lived that. It wasn't the Dynastics. The Dynastics did not build the Pyramids. And you've been to Egypt and you know there's a lot of sophisticated artifacts that are you kind of scratch your head and go, how do they do that? Yeah?
For sure.
Yeah. So I think the feeling of openness needs to be more cultivated, but I guess we have to just deal with it right now. So in Egypt's a funny place, and SAR technology, I think it's being applied to other ancient sites and the same way that lightar is. Do you remember when light ar This is one of the questions I want to ask you when light ar came out. Was there resistance to that as well early on?
You know, I think there was, and especially in where they were using it, So I think, you know, archaeologists can be territorial, and when you want to employ a new tool or you know, some new science to it, they feel they can feel like you know they are they're gatekeeping, gatekeeper, They're gatekeeper. You know, I get it because they spend a lot of time on work. But when new information presents itself, you must be forced to reevaluate your information. Your scientific muscle must be flexed in
that moment and you have to reconsider your hypothesis. That's the whole backbone of science.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guests today Jindale discussing views of archaeology. Will be right back. This podcast is brought to you by squarespace. Hey, have you ever had an idea that you thought you'd like to expand on, perhaps as a product or a service, or even a business idea that you wanted to expand into a website. Squarespace can offer you the tools to build it simply easy within a
few hours without a problem. Squarespace has design features that are cutting edge and can offer you everything from email campaigns and SEO analytics that will make your job easy and help you get the word out. Squarespace is an all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website,
and grow your brand all in one place. Head to squarespace dot com forward slash ancients for your free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use code ancients to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace dot com forward slash Ancients. My guest today is Jindale, and we are looking at archaeology from an educational point of view and what that does to a field archaeologist who's trying to write history and
understand how our ancestors lived. Hey, let's move on to another interesting topic which is being questioned by archaeologists, and this is dating human settlements in North America over a year and a half, almost two years ago, I had a filled archaeologist doctor Paulette Steves on the program. She was a native archaeologist from Canada who began redating settlements in present day the United States, and the dates came back to over one hundred thousand years in the past,
which threw the whole Clovis First out the window. And to my thinking, and I'm curious about your thoughts on this brings up the thought about how people were migrating back then. Of course everyone you know, the safe spot is everything's being from Asia or Siberia through the Bearing Straight. I begin to think that that's kind of out the window. But I'm curious about two things. Migration and we're going to bring it up again, but also settlements that are over one hundred thousand years.
Okay, let's talk migration first, because I think that that's a really interesting idea. And you know that I don't think that people were just coming here via the Bearing Straight land Bridge. I think that there were other modes in which people got here. And even if we look back, like maybe more recent in time, like the Nordic expansion, and we think about where I live in New England, there is a very high likelihood that those Nordic folks were coming here. We know that because we've found them
in Newfoundland. We see them in some sites in Canada that's very recent. I would say, that's within like the last you know, thousand, fIF teen hundred years. And then if we push further, you know, we have sites like Metowcroft Rock Shelter and that's in Pennsylvania.
That site is.
Dated to sixteen thousand years ago, which is you know, still it's pre younger dryas, so that's during glaciation. If we go further in, we've got sites like let's see, there's Cooper's Ferry in Idaho that's fifteen thousand years old. Swan Point, Alaska, that one's probably more associated with bearing straight migration. That's fourteen thousand years ago. There are just a whole host of sites. And then even the most
recent site, which I think is pretty cool. This happened I think last year or the year before the White Sands, New Mexico. The twenty three thousand to twenty one thousand.
Uh those yeah, carrying yep.
With the giant sloth and you know, following them. So again that's pret young a dryas, so we know folks were getting here. The presupposition there is well, everything was glaciated prior to that, so how were they getting here with that glaciation in tow and I mean, I think I've always said this to you. I'm a proponent of
traveling via refugia. So think of refugia as you know, during that glaciation period, they were traveling along the edges of those glaciers where you would find you know, larger sea mammals like you know, seals or walrus or anything that they could possibly eat that had really high caloric content. So if we go down even further, we have sites like this, the site's a little questionable, the Serruti masted on site, and I think that that site, that's.
My god, that's the San Diego, that's the one that's one hundred and thirty.
Hundred and thirty thousand. And the reason that they classify it a human site or human involvement with this masted on is because of how the bones were broken and then arranged post mortem.
Is I think it's a kill site right because they're erect marrow out of the bone.
Correct.
And then there there are some other sites that kind of fall into that category as well. But I think we can all agree that there was some boat technology happening. You and I've said this all along, I have never deviated or I am a strong proponent of maritime technology. I think that these folks were so much more sophisticated
than we give them credit for. Even if you think about like some of the boats that they've found recently, and they've discovered that the timbers were like sewn together, and yeah, and if you're also if you're eating these larger aquatic mammals, their skins are perfect for making smaller sized boat or lining your boat with their skins that are already water tight. So I just I think that there are so many more options than the ones that we've been given for how folks were getting into the
North American continent. And if we go down further into South America, we do have genetic evidence of that I knew in South America and that is a culture of Japanese culture. So really yeah, soor and Jamon pottery that we also find in South America which has a Japanese tie. So I just I think that we two things. I think that we get caught up in this idea that things have to happen one way or you know the prescribed way that we've been told, but in reality, we're humans.
If we want to get somewhere, we're going to find a way to do it, and we're going to go there. And I also think what about the level of curiosity these early people. They were curious about their world. They were able to move across continence and seas and oceans and develop technologies because they didn't have a nine to five job. Their job was to be curious and to get out into the world.
So yeah, that's the resistance though, Jen with the Mayanists, and I mentioned before we started the eminent Mayanist Michael Cole, who passed away before I could get him on the on the podcast, he refutes any idea of migrations from anywhere to present day Mexico or Central America. Of course he excavated to call in Guatemala. But some of the questions that were posed to him is the similarities between camer pyramids and the Maya pyramids, because they are they're layered,
and they look very similar. Not that they are exactly the same, but there may have been a blueprint on how to engineer pyramids, because those are engineering feats when you stack stone up to two hundred feet plus and he just flat out said no, no, no, no, no, And it's like, are you even looking at the possibilities and he just shut it down.
Yeah.
I think that there are old narratives that exist that people perhaps I think that certain scientists are archaeology archaeologists hold tight too, because it's been a longstanding narrative that they have gone with and I think if you change that, then you, meaning the scientist, somehow changes that, then it somehow nullifies all the work that they've done prior to
that time. And I think that that's probably a really scary thing when you've spent like the last twenty years of your life working on this one site and saying it's one way, and then suddenly you know you've changed the whole dynamic of how you've perceived it, and you know that's problematic. I want to say that that's an old way of thinking. Being married to you know, this one supposition of history is probably not it's it's self fulfilling.
I guess you know, you're you're determining what it is versus taking on the information and actually making sense of it. So yeah, it's it's problematic. That's the last thing I can say about it.
I'm speaking for myself. But if I had written a book that said, all the evidence states that there was no migrations, and then all of a sudden, we find anchors offshore, we found evidence of red boats, we have in my case, evidence of racial diversity, people from different parts of the world in Mexico present day Mexico, I would be open and say, look, we found new evidence, and this is what we're now realizing, is that there
was a migration. Not holding to outdated thoughts because that kind of that kind of influences the younger people that are coming up, who'd become our new archaeologists and anthropologists who are defining our human history.
Yeah. Yes, I think a couple of things are going on there. I believe that the archaeologists coming out of South America right now are on They're on the pulse of things because they are rewriting their history.
I think of.
What's going on in Brazil and the sites that are popping up in Brazil and the technology that they're employing in Central America to see sites. I'm thinking right now of the Santa Lina rockshelter in Oh My gosh. It's in Brazil, I believe, and they date it to twenty
five to twenty seven thousand years ago. But what's so amazing about it is that it's rarely ever talked about, and we know that there was something very complex going on on in the the jungles of Brazil because now we're seeing all of these geometric earth earthen works that are coming out. So I think about the Amazon Yeah, yeah, that Amazonian earthen works, but also some of the work that amateur archaeologists are doing in I can't remember his name.
He has an instagram. It's Pillars of Time or something like that. He's an amateur archaeologist going into the Chilean and Bolivian and Peruvian deserts and finding megalithic sites that no one has ever seen before, and you know they're not documented, and he's telling the archaeologists in those countries, you've got to see the site. He's finding sites that
haven't even been pot hunted yet and plundered. I just something he had something on last week where he found a megalithic site in He found a site that was very similar to Korral. So I think that Central and South America. They're gonna blow everyone out of the water in the next ten years. They are going to rewrite their history and we are going to learn things we did not know before because they're already starting to do it. It's just a matter of if you're paying attention or not.
So they're using the technology that's in vogue right now, and I'm thinking light r, ground penetrade radar, perhaps some dating technology that's been revised or is renewed. And they are accredited archaeologists who are making these claims.
Yeah, there are, There are quite a few. And you know what they're using a lot of as well, drones, drones to get up above, especially in these high mountain areas and arid landscapes. They're using drones in ways that are just remarkable. I mean it's really quite amazing. So you know a lot of creative folks that are trying to get these sites documented and also just bring them to scientists' attention, like preserve this, check it out, do
some research. So it's happening. I think it's very expensive. I think it's really really expensive.
Yeah, well, light ours even though it's cheaper than it was, it's still not cheap. Yeah, you gotta process. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guests today Jen Dale discussing the state of archaeology. We'll
be right back. We're speaking with archaeologist Jenda, who has been a regular on Earth Agents for years and I love her opinion, and we're getting a sense of just what is happening to archaeologists given the advent of artificial intelligence and other technologies in evaluating ancient civilizations. Talk just for a minute about ego, and this is a tough one, but if you've been the teacher or university professor and you say this is the way it is in some
young upstarts, like sir, this is what we found. This is new data, and it goes in the face of old thought and theory, not just I mean, do you think there's a problem with tenure, someone's tenure being questioned or I mean, because this is what I hear, you know, And I've been doing this for over a decade, and I have a lot of scientists on the show, as you know, but there's a lot of people that are like non scientists, you know, and it almost seems like
they bundle us all up into like you're part of ancient aliens, you know, which I I you know me, I'm like, these ancient alien guys drive me nuts because if they can't answer the question about who made it, it's the aliens, you know.
Yeah, you know, I think that these folks. This is going to sound very morbid, but I think the old school is dying. The old watch Ivory Tower folks are They're dying out.
And I don't think.
They're not able to operate the same way because there are kids that are so smart and coming out and know how to use technology, and they're able to use it in ways that you know, I certainly wasn't when I was doing field archaeology. So yeah, I mean, I think ego plays a part in that you're married to your work, you're and it somehow it becomes your identity. I think that's a pitfall. I don't think that's particularly healthy, and it's certainly not helpful to discovering you know, what's next.
I had professors like that, but I also I had a number of you know, professors that didn't believe that either, and maybe they didn't teach it, but it was almost always up in conversation that they didn't necessarily abide by the status quo.
Good, I know, we're tight on time. But the last thing I want to talk about, and this is an important one, which is oral traditions, and they seem to
be becoming more important. But I'm curious your idea, your thought on how we reference oral traditions in the same manner that doctor Paulette Steves has been doing with North American site redating, and she's just gone back to known indigenous sites and redated them with various technologies and got these extremely old, very early one hundred thousand plus year dates. But how do we how do we how do we reference oral traditions in a way that we can use that information.
It's a great question.
So what comes to top of mind for me is what the Australian Aboriginal communities are doing with their oral histories and how they're using it as a dating technique, whether it's for rock art or some of the the art that they have on the land that they've created within their storytelling, which is really fascinating to me. And you know, just genetically their stories line up with their
genes and they've just discovered that. Yeah, they're one of the They are the oldest living genetic population of on this planet. I can't remember exactly what they were, but I know they were well over one hundred thousand years which is Isn't that remarkable because when you look at the genetics of these folks, you find little traces of it around the world. We know that they were. Their long walk was not a lie. Their long walk was true.
So you know, I am so firmly embedded in believe people, especially Indigenous people, when they tell you their life, wigs, stories and the stories of their people and how they existed to this point, because there is so much truth, reality and just pure useful knowledge and what it is that they're telling us. I do think that there's a huge tie in too, North America when you look into some of the different bands and groups that you have here.
I know, the Ojibwe storyline of Younger Dryas exists. They talk about a great cataclysm, They talk about the ice sheets and what they did during that period of time of darkness.
There is so much.
Wisdom baked into these these stories that they share, and they weren't writing their stories. They were articulating their stories to pass on to the next generation. So these these weren't always you know, many are rooted in allegory and metaphor and analogy, and us white folks don't talk like that, so we discredit it or make it less valuable because it doesn't, you know, resemble how we operate. But I think that's that's the pitfall. Just because it's not ours doesn't mean it isn't true.
I have to be blunt about this. In my research, especially in the decoding of the Maya Maya hieroglyphs, there's a bit of racism that is very prevalent with the archaeological archaeological community unwilling to talk with the scientists which are called daykeepers or these uh shaman and ask them about their history. And I was I couldn't believe it that there has not really been any kind of collaboration with Maya. It's just insane.
It's a missed opportunity. I mean, that's that's the only thing I can say about that. And I again back to that, you know that that premise of how are things made versus how were they used? You know, I would want to understand if I was taking in you know, this oral history or ethnographic work that these indigenous folks were willing to tell us. I mean, it's it's a gift, it's it's a LifeWay that we don't necessarily understand. But you know, it goes back to what you were saying.
A lot of these stories talk about immigration. They talk about how folks got here, how they traveled here, why they traveled here, who they met and they got here, what they experienced, what animals they saw, what the land looked like. All of those little nuggets are built into those ethnographic stories, and they're so incredibly valuable. You know, I heard a couple of weeks ago you were talking to a gentleman and you were talking about where the
existing codices exist in the world, the Mayan codices. Imagine that if we had those oral codices, you know, in someone's brain, that we could just download and understand them in a different way. Imagine how how much easier it would be to contextualize the Maya if you had some of their oral traditions and stories. And we do because the Maya still exists to this.
Day, six million of them.
Yeah, exactly, So let's talk to them.
That's what I'm so confused about is if you want data, why not go to the source. And they've never ever gone to the source. Yeah, that's a huge mission opportunity.
I bet, I bet you dollars to donuts that they have some ethnographic researcher, probably someone who's native to that area, who has taken them in orally, but hasn't necessarily you know, written them down or put them down so that others could see them. But really what that would require would be for you to embed yourself in that community, gain the trust to learn those stories.
Yeah, I mean that's a good point. There must be indigenous scholars who are not really speaking up, you know, yeah, or their material is not considered valid.
Well, and they might want to protect that information now because you know, look what's happened to it before It certainly wasn't cherished.
No, Yeah, Jen Dale, always a pleasure. Uh, it's fun having you on the program. We're gonna have to have you come back on a more regular basis. Of course, you're so busy.
I'll make time for you, Cliff, Oh good good.
As we close, what's what's interesting to you right now in terms of archaeological digs? You you got your you know, you're viewing all of the planet and seeing what's going on. Is there any specific digs that you're following.
You know? Right now, I'm most interested in things with all of the droughts happening over the surface of our planet right now, I think that there are a lot of things that are going to come to light as the ocean changes and we get more access to areas that perhaps we haven't. I'm always interested in things happening like in Turkey and stuff like that, because I think that those are just you know the.
You mean like bey Tepee and karra Han Well, I mean.
Yes, I think that those are interesting places, and we have a lot of scientists working in those areas right now, so we're learning so much about just that. Is it the Kavastepe culture? I think I can't remember what it's called exactly, but I think that I think those areas are going to give us like the most interesting nuggets right now and maybe give us more explanation on what's next in archaeology. And then I'm super interested in the Amazon because I think the Amazon is exploding right now.
Isn't that funny? Yeah, the technology is really revealing it in Graham's most recent book. He has a whole section on the Amazon So so all right, hey, thanks for joining me, and let's do it.
Again, all right, see a cliff. It's always fun.
To have Jin on the program if you ever get a chance to join us on one of the Earth Ancients tours. In Jin's with us. She's also fun to hang with because she has an in depth experience and knowledge of a lot of the artifacts that we see in Egypt or wherever we're going. So think about that for the future. By the way, we do have I want to say, maybe a handful of spots left for our upcoming Grand Egyptian Tour number seven. It's going to be April twenty eight through May tenth. We meet in Cairo.
That's really the best time to go because the weather is transitioning from comfortably warm to hot, and I've been in Egypt when it's like in the hundreds in boy, you don't want to really deal with that. So if you want more information on that tours, it's available at earth Acients dot com forward slash Tours and they have the full itinerary. And this is the tour that I always probably say it's the diplomat's tour because you get treated like a head of state or city or tower.
You're from our country, and so it's a diplomatic tour because you're winding down and treated to just the best time over thirteen days that you can experience in Egypt. So if you're interested, take a look at that itinerary at earth Ancients dot com, forward slash Tours, or if you want more information, send me an email. Send it to Earth Ancients the number for the letter you at gmail dot com. Ask me a question. I promised to
get right back to you. And the other thing that we don't really talk too much about is the fact that our tours are fifty percent less than most of these tours, and that means you're paying ten grand to get there and to get food and drinking your accommodations. Our tours are half that much for the same deal. Earth Agents dot com, Forward SLA Tours. Check it out,
come out and join us now. The other thing I want to mention, and I kind of alluded to it at the very beginning of this podcast, is that artificial intelligence machine learning is changing the entire archaeological point of view and anomalists like myself people that are looking for these unusual potentials, and I mean, I have to be completely honest. I just questioned our history. You know, it's either this is the way it is, or you don't have a history. And I think it needs to be change.
And I think artificial intelligence will change history dramatically. And I gave one example at the beginning of the program of the Abu Sabil sculptures, but there's other examples that I'm investigating right now. One of the features of ancient pre dynastic history, and this is my belief and some other people's, is that many of the sculptures that were
left to us were from an earlier people. Chris dun highlights this a little bit with the Ramsey question, and his analysis just observing these statues is that many of them were machined, meaning that there was a die or a program put into some cutting tool and they cut, shaped, and sanded these handful of sculptures in a way that is beyond the skill of an artisan or a sculptor.
And I've found this to be an interesting possibility. And I'm just beginning to prompt AI with these questions, and what it is is you compose a really detailed question of what to look for. What the AI is digging into, what is the data, And they are collecting decades of data, analyzing it based on my question and spinning out answers, and some of the answers are just phenomenal. And there's very very few people that are writing prompts to archaeological study.
And this is so new that I think it's going to revolutionize archaeology. It's also going to help them open their brains and open their possibility possibilities for other alternative looks because they're rigid, just too rigid, and I think you cannot And this is not their fault, it's their education. An archaeologist should excuse me. An anthropologist who becomes an archaeologist, you know, must pass tests based on antiquated data. You know,
not all of them, but that's the foundation. And if you're not willing to stretch beyond your you're learning, then you're in trouble. And remember we're not talking about ancient aliens. We're not talking about Atlantis. I mean, Atlantis is a kill point for a lot of archaeologists because they hear it and they just freeze up. What I'm talking about is using technology to analyze these artifacts, you know, and the vast majority of them do follow the pattern of
given understandings of history. But there's a lot that does not fall. There's a lot of analogies, there's a lot of questions that are posed by archaeologists that are not being taken serious. Now, remember Karacuney, doctor Karacuney at UCLA,
she wrote a whole book on reused artifacts. And my theory and that of doctor Shock and his wife Catherine and many others we've had on the show is that there's great doubts about the given history of the Egyptians, the Pharaohs, and it's looking more and more like these different pharaohs that we're familiar with, that Old Middle and New kingdoms that are so beautifully highlighted in history books may have encountered the great Pyramids and the temples and
the buildings that we take for granted today. They were met, they found them, they were there when they came into power, and they modified them. There's nothing that's we can find that's written. We have to look at the data, we have to analyze it through tools like artificial intelligence, and that's what I'm really excited about and I'm devouring the latest data, the latest writing, the latest books on prompts, because again, the questions are the keys, and that's it.
Because of the complexity of artificial intelligence, your prompts, your questions to the brain of artificial intelligence, has to be equally diverse and strong. If you look at some of the prompts on chat, GPT or Venice or any of the artificial intelligence that is standard or what's available, some of the the prompts are as big as you know, amongst a massive paragraph, and they're there detailed looks at questions, and that's the key, and you you can see amazing results,
amazing answers to some fabulous questions. Where this goes, I don't know, but I'm excited about it right now because some of the results I'm getting are astounding and they're they're they're bending my mind, and I think it's going to bend archaeology. I think it's going to be history because we cannot take history for granted. And this is what people are doing right now. We're taking it for granted. Yes,
this is what they wrote, so this is it. Yes, my history book says this about Columbus, says this about Cortez says this about whoever, and we don't question that. Well, history is malleable. It's not written in stone, very very very little of it is written in stone. So anyhow, look forward to more programs on artificial intelligence. In fact, I'm excited to think about a panel discussion of archaeologists and engineers and experts who are applying AI to their
fields and to see what it comes up with. So before to that, all right, I want to think my guest today, miss Chindo, can we do us? From Vermont, United States? Has always the team of gelteor Mark Foster and the wonderful Faia Bavar in Pakistan. Man, you guys rock all right, take care of you well and we will talk to you next time.
They the