Luke Caverns: Lost World Archaeology

Hey, how are you come on over here under the shade of this tree and let's talk a little bit. Yeah, here in northern California, we're cooking. A lot of the United States is in the one hundred degree fahrenheit temperatures and we're getting it. We're getting blasted. We have a week of this one hundred plus degree heat. And my guest today, Luke Caverns, is in Austin and he told me that the temperatures have been about one hundred

and five fahrenheit for the last few weeks. Boy, you know, one or two days of scorching heat is acceptable, but when it gets to be more than a week, two weeks. I've talked to some friends in I think it's in Arkansas, and they've been having one hundred degree heat for over a month and with no relief. It was like, that is that's terrible. So, you know, when the environmentalists pipe up and say, hey, this is global warming, pay attention because this is getting out of hand,

and this is what's kind of scary. They're saying to us that this may be typical going forward, This may be typical summers one hundred degree hundred and five hundred and ten. Now I heard the other day from a friend, and I'm trying to fallacate this that in Saudi Arabia their temperatures have been one hundred and twenty four fahrenheit. That is, that is killer heat. And I get. I have a great story when I was in Vegas at a conference. This is probably I want to say, ten years ago.

It's a dry heat. It's not a humid there's no humidity. It's dry heat, dry desert heat. And I was walking out of a casino, I think it was a Treasure Island, and I wanted to cross the street. I was on the Strip, main Strip. I wanted to cross the street. So I had shoes that had crape soles, you know, really kind of a soft rubber sole because I was on my feet. I purchased them because I was on my feet for hours and I wanted to be comfortable.

I wanted this to be I didn't want to take a beating. So but as I was crossing the street, I noticed that the road was pulling at me, the asphalt road. As I lifted my legs to move forward, my feet were stuck like there was glue on my shoe. And as I crossed over to the other side of the sidewalk. I lifted up my shoe to look this, and it was melted. The heat was so intense. And I looked up at this time, when I was close to another casino, I looked up and they had a big temperature gage. It was

one hundred and fifteen and it was melting my shoes. Well, Jesus Christ, I can't imagine what what happened to us physically. If you were in one hundred and twenty four degree heat, what is projected to have been many, many days, perhaps longer, of intense heat. That's like our Mojave Desert in California. They get up to one hundred and twenty one hundred and

you know, thirty on its extreme heat. But if we get to the point where we're struggling and we're getting one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty degree heat, people have to wake up, you know, if that's that that kills people. I mean, one hundred degree heat can really affect older people who can't perspire quite the same as we do because their body has aged and they don't have the same sweat ducks and so forth and so on.

If we are dealing with one hundred and twenty four degree heat. We're going to be in trouble. So, oh boy, let's hope that that doesn't happen. I don't know that's even to contemplate. That is kind of scary. So I hope you're not suffering too much right now. Today. Our guest is Luke Caverns. He is kind of the new rock star. He's an anthropologist who's on Facebook. He's heavy on the social media side. You can see him on YouTube. He did a fantastic program on this Joe Rogan

debate with the archaeologist Flint Dibble and Graham Hancock. His review of it from an academic side was very favorable to the alternative side. And you know, it's funny if you use the term pseudo science, pseudo archaeology, pseudo information, the new more term is alternative history. And I don't even think it should be that. I didn't have a chance to see the Joe Rogan program, but you know, it was four hours, four hour podcast, and

a lot of people came away disappointed. I didn't want to see it because I know Graham personally. I don't think he needs to make a claim for his research and his claim for his writing. I think it stands on its own. I think Dibble and I heard a little bit about this. I think Dibble made some points that apparently were good. But if you haven't seen this, go to YouTube, go to just go to look Caverns and you'll see it up on top there. It's the Joe Rogan review and a lot

of people have reviewed it. I didn't think again that Graham needed to do it, but he feels that he's being persecuted. And we've talked many tests on this program about him on Netflix and how the Association of Archaeologists just had to fit call him a racist, call him out of his mind and a problem child, and they're just threatened. And so a lot of our talk today might talk with Luke Caverns revolves around what is the status as an anthropologist

fresh degree? I think a couple of years ago he got it, and what that means, what he was taught in college, what he was directed to comprehend as an anthropologist. It's pretty sad. And I know this because I have a cousin who's an anthropologist. I've talked to him many times about this. It's like books that were written one hundred and fifty years ago. Nothing's updated. As shocking as it appears. A lot of the discussion has

to do with known sites. They don't discuss go Beckley Tepe, some of the new Mayan and Egyptian discoveries, and some of the new research by independent scholars. And this is a continual problem. Now the impasse is closing because if this scientific data is published by peer reviewed groups, then that data typically gets accepted. But even in the face of peer reviews, topics like these Sphinx and the Giza Plateau are still thought to be the work of a known

pharaoh, Kufu, and that's not the case. And we know from Robert Schock, doctor Robert Shock, that the Sphinx was not carved originally in any times period that we're familiar with. It's probably twelve thousand hour older. And the head and the repairs were done by the pharaohs because as the thing was, you know, remember the whole story of repurposing, someone decided to make the head of the sphinx a pharaoh and fix the body because they were repurposing

the sphinx for that dynastic period. And we've had doctor Karacuni blow us away with her assessment that this was a regular practice. As crazy as that sounds, this was a regular practice. So today my guest is Luke Caverns and we're talking about his belief his understandings for history, both alternative and academic. We have our last tour coming up this year. It's our Sacred Temples of

Yucatan, Mexico. It's November eighth through the seventeenth, and I have our host and our guide, Mimo Gonzales with us talk a little bit about this upcoming tour. Mimo has been with me for a number of years. We're gonna be going to ek Baalam is one of our locations and they've done some

recent excavations there and what will we see there that's that's unique. Yeah, they have been doing a very interesting research restoration and the important mind sights, including balm Ekbalam is one of the places we went enjoyed the most because it has some unique items. As you said, first of all, like it. It's still not a very touristic place. Yeah, we're allowed to walk on most of the ancient constructions down there, and as you imagine, from

the top of most of these temples. We have beautiful v you all right again. It's November eighth to the seventeenth of this year. Our host and tour guide is Mimo Gonzalez. For more information, go to Earthancients dot com forward slash tours and you'll see all the itinerary. It's a short program. It's one week. We do a lot of pyramid climbs and it's going to be a perfect time to be there because the weather is great and it's very

very reasonable. So again a Sacred Pyramid Tour November eighth through the seventeenth of this year. Memo will look forward to seeing you. Yeah, I mean too. Cheers, take care for your soon. I've been talking for a while now about the next generation of archaeologist anthropologists who are coming around, and I have been predicting for a while that some kid in an MIT platform is going to create a scanning device that can scan these ancient temples, pyramids and

whatever and pull a whole new level of content out. But my guest today is Luke Caverns. He is an anthropologist. He's kind of the next trend. If you haven't heard about him, he's got a real huge following on social media. YouTube channel, Facebook, Instagram, and some of his recent commentaries on people like Graham, Hancock and Rogan's program where he had a Hancock and the archaeologist Flint on the program. I've been kind of unique and refreshing,

so I wanted to have him on the program. We have him here today. He's coming to us from Texas. So Hey, Luke, great to have you on the program. Hey cliff Man, thank you so much for having me. I have seen your podcast on Spotify the entire time I've had Spotify. Just I mean, you're you're a staple in this in this ancient history ancient mystery world. Everybody's seen Earth ancients and uh, it's it's a pleasure to be on. Thank you, Hey, thanks for joining me.

First of all, I want to ask you, you know, I'm I'm kind of a history buff and I have been for years, you know, picking up traditional books and so forth and so on. I didn't take the step that you did, which is actually go to school, talk a little bit about your interest and why you would proceed and get your credential as an anthropologist. So really, what made me actually pursue anthropology and get my degree was not because I wanted to pursue the career of a traditional anthropologist,

but more so because I couldn't pass my business marketing classes. I hated them. I didn't have the attention span to study things that I didn't care about, and I didn't have the quote unquote discipline to do that, even though I don't really think that's discipline. I just didn't want to do things I didn't want to do. So I got tired of wasting money on that and I just I told my girlfriend at the time, who's my wife now, that I didn't know what was going to happen if I made this decision,

but I need to study anthropology because it's the only thing I like. And that was two and a half years in the school that I changed. You know, Oh, my guy, you were mid your mid stream and you you did a reverse. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I took a took a hard reverse. And actually what caused that was I was obsessed with ancient history from the time that I was a little kid. My first two my first couple of memories are I always grew up with

my dad. Every so often, when we'd be on a road trip, I would ask him, you know, Okay, well, tell me more about Grandpa. I never knew my dad's dad. He died when my dad was younger than me, but he was he was the last of a lineage of explorers over the course of three generations, going back to the eighteen hundreds. And I would just ask my dad to tell me everything he knew. And my dad didn't know a lot either. This is back in the this

is from the early sixties. It ended in sixty These string of explorations and expeditions ended in nineteen sixty two, but they began in the eighteen eighties. And and so you know, my dad didn't know a lot about it, but he would kind of grow up telling me some of these stories. Then on my mom's side of the family, my grandpa he was a he was a traveling missionary, but he was also interested in the ancient world of the

Bible, and so he would teach me. You know, I just wanted to know more about you know, when we would go to Sunday service. He would take me to dairy Queen afterwards, and I'd sit down and just ask him about you know, well, tell me more about the people's lives in the Bible. I want to know more about that what was the world

like that they lived in? And then another one of my earliest memories is watching the movie Troy when I wasn't allowed to and and I ended up seeing you know, I couldn't read that well, but I could read tr tr o Y And I found that in this book called Lost Cities that my grandpa on my mom's side had, and so he would read me that book. I eventually stole it and I never gave it back, and it's somewhere on

this bookshelf. And so so I say that to say that was kind of that pushed me down the path of always being in ancient history and as a kid, always thinking about, well, what what's the world what are these people's actual lives like? When I'm at you know, Sunday school listening to the sermon, I'm thinking like, okay, what does that world actually look like? And I didn't realize that was that was anthropology even a little kid, And so that had always been my interest, but I had always pushed

it to the back of my mind because it didn't seem realistic. And so

I was hating marketing, I was hating my job. I didn't like anything that I was doing, and I was, I was my girlfriend and I we were sitting down and we watched this movie called The Lost City of z and essentially it's about Percy Fawcett really being discontented with his you know, Western culture, European life, and all these aristocratic people that looked down on him, and he found a purpose in pursuing anthropology, archaeology explorations studying people of

South America. And that movie resonated with me so much that I did a one eighty in my life immediately afterwards. And so I changed my changed my major in college and decided to pursue anthropology. Just I didn't know where it was going to go. And eventually I took the creative route and making videos and got into education entertainment, and then I was able to fund my own excursions, of which I've done a few, just my own down in Central

America and Mexico, and that's where I'm at. Now. That's very cool. When you got out of school with your credential, did they kind of leave an impression that the professors and the teachers and they and the curriculum that you needed to follow a certain path. Well, I'll say that in my anthropology classes, No, because I actually did everything online, so it was

not as personable. I was actually towards the end of college, I was just following my girlfriend and my wife around that whatever school she was at, I was there taking online classes. And then she got into dental school here in San Antonio, so I moved here and then finished up school online. So I didn't really have like much of a relationship with my teachers in person.

But I will say that there was some curriculum and some sentiments that were given to us that I thought were that I thought were definitely agenda driven in some way. You know, talk about that because this is what makes your point of view so interesting. You're an academic, I mean, you can't get away from that. Now You're like, Okay, man, I'm graduated, I'm an anthropologist. You have a certain focal point to upheld. But and we have people on our show, like our own Genda, who's a

field archaeologist. She although she had this training, she's kind of going, hmm, there's more to this than just the books I've read, the classes I've taken, and the impressions I've gotten from these professors. So talk a little bit about what you were left with and where you're at now. Yeah. Well, okay, so there's two instances that really come to mind.

I guess I'll tell them in chronological order. So my very first semester in anthropology, you know, I had classes that were basically, you know, so you had to take origins of civilization, so you know, I had to begin with ancient China, Ancient Egypt, and Mesopotamia. Those were really fun, but it's just your it's your ordinary explanation of those timelines, and you know the historicity of them. It didn't really have anything to do with

the pyramids or anything as far as archaeology. It was mostly just history, I guess, although the history is derived from the archaeology whatever that. I

remember there being a question on one of these quizes. There are about ten questions, but the overall gist of it, and I can quote one directly, is the question was asking me something along the lines of something along the lines of like, how do you how do you determine a person's ethnicity, because you know, ancient history has a lot to do with different ethnicities and

everything. It was asked me, how do you determine someone's ethnicity. And although this sudden thing to do necessarily directly with archaeology, it kind of it kind of tipped me off to something. I was like, wait, this

is what I'm being taught. So I answer the question with, you know, whatever makes most sense to me. Ethnicity has a lot to do with where you're born, has lots do you know where you're born, the culture that's around you, this, that, and the other, and then the answer and then I got the answer wrong and it said the correct answer was was actually the most ridiculous answer or answer choice on there, and it said

ethnicity, like beauty is often in the eyes of the beholder. Whoa I was paying to learn that, I swear, I swear I have a picture somewhere from maybe twenty nineteen from that and that was the correct answer. And there were a lot of things like that throughout my education where I was like, this is well, I mean, really, this is what I'm being taught. Another instance was one of the lecture slides. I have a photo

of this somewhere. One of the lecture slides was when I was taking in archaeology course, so you know, I had I had like four major courses on archaeology, and there was one of them where there was a couple of lecture slides that were covering pseudo archaeology, and so it was Graham Hancock and I found I found it just it was funny and it was super fascinating. And granted I had a professor who she was pretty nice and uh, but yeah, you know, they we poked fun I say we, but the

class poked fun at Graham Hancock, Billy Carson. You know, I don't align very much with Billy Carson, but you know, they poked fun that a lot of the heads of pseudo archaeology and definitely made it known that that

is not what they were teaching in school. But I, you know, having not really had it in person relationship with any of my professors, there wasn't really a situation where you have those one on one conversations where you get the gist that they're trying to push you in a certain direction, if that makes sense, at least in a way that's not subtle, if that makes sense. But those are two in and says I can really think of over the course of my three years that I took to get my anthropology degree,

Well, are you thinking of doing field research at all. I mean, because I like what you were just saying, you're kind of like a educational artist. I can't remember the total name of it, but yeah, like education entertainment, education entertainment. So that's very powerful. But is that where you kind of want to sit and then maybe do some tours and lectures.

Is that where you see yourself in the future or are you going to do the hardcore grunt work and sign up to do some excavations in Chitchitza or Guatemala at Chiopis or something. Yeah. Yeah, Well doctor Barnhart he thinks that. He thinks that field work is absolutely necessary for me. And so I told my wife when she graduates from dental school, I'm taking I'm taking a couple of years off from working my day job. I'm gonna pursue, you

know, trying to build this you know, education entertainment business. But also I need time to go do field work. And so where I think I'm gonna go is bevar which bvar Blize Valley Archaeological Reconnaissance Project, and they that's actually the area where doctor Barnheart discovered his lost city mash Nah. I don't know if he's talked about that on this podcast. Maybe he has, he has, he has. I have not seen pictures of it, though I

think it's fairly recent. It's Yeah, it's really hard to find photos of these. I think he's got some photos from the nineties, but I don't know that they're really well published. But I've been telling him when I get down to Belize, I'm gonna go somehow, I'm gonna find I'm gonna walk my way back to that city. I don't think. I don't think anyone's been there in ten years. Honestly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, so

so Bvar. It's either run by or somebody who's very influential over there is a guy named doctor Jamie Awi, and he's already told me, you know, the door's open. When I'm ready to go down there some summer to work for a month or two months on one of the projects that's down there, then then yes, I'm definitely gonna do that. But really my overall goal is I want to you know, if you're not going to be a traditional anthropologist working for a for a university, you got to make money somehow,

which kind of means being an entrepreneur. So you know, I want to keep on putting out videos and doing online lectures and talking about these topics.

I'm also working on a podcast right now called Temple Talk, and I'm just slowly assembling some some episodes and then keep doing lectures in person and then eventually, you know, right now I'm doing tours through my Exploration Center, post you tours through ADEPT Expeditions A then you know, I have maybe five ten years from now, maybe one day I'll have my own business leading tours. I don't know where, but you know, maybe even doing like adventure

tours that are really accessible where it's not like a luxury tour. It's more of like a you know, exploration tour where we're sleeping in a box, you know, but everyone can come, you know, something like that. I think that's kind of missing from the market. And then but yeah, as far as hard research, I think that I think that I want to eventually launch when I have the money to do it and I can also crowdfund

these things. I want to launch real expeditions into the lock and Down Jungle, the Potent Jungle, the pretend that's where Colack Mule and El Mirador are. Well yeah, but yeah, so the Pten Jungle, the Belize, the Belize Maya Mountains. I want to go what Themala? It sounds like you, you know, I I haven't been to Guatemala. I have been. I've been all around Guatemala. What's funny is I kind of visited all the Maya sites backwards. I did almost every major Maya site other than t

Call and chichen Itza first. So I just saw I just saw Chichenitza, and which is crazy. I've only been traveling down there for three or four years now, and I'm about to mark off every city in the next by the end of By the end of twenty twenty five, I'll have been to every major Maya city. Yeah, we like talking about that offline. Chichenita is kind of like a zoo now Yeah, yeah, touch anything. It's

all roped off. It's really sad. Yeah. If whoever's listening to this, if you're thinking about going to the Maya world, go to Quintana Row. That's what I would do. I would go. I would go see Tuloom and then I would go see uh Muyil and Koba. Those are yeah, those are some great sites. I mean, Cooba is getting pretty big.

One of the things that I don't love about some of these Maya sites when you visit them is how heavily landscaped it is when they take away all the trees and it feels like you're not even standing in the environment that that it would have really been like it Sometimes are so arid and dry. Bobo's huge, though, it's like you've got to take a bike to ride. Oh yeah, and it's such a tourist trap. Now it's right next to you know, it's easy to get to from Cancun. So I would do

Moui. I would do mu Yiel. If anybody's wanting to go to near Cancun, Muyiel you have, you get you get to walk on these I don't know if you get, but there's these board planks that go in the swamps and the jungle around the city, and you get this feel that you're you know, in this you're in this wild, ancient place. It doesn't feel so manicured that you feel disconnected from it. You know. Yeah,

let me ask you and then we want to move on. Uh. Have you met anyone else that is a young graduate of anthropology and do you get a sense of their opinions? Of the so called pseudo sciences, and I don't really, I do not want to continue using that language. I want to use an alternative view of history, like a Graham Hancock or are you familiar with Michael Kremo. He wrote Forbidden Archaeology is a book as big as a Bible. It's like that I've heard the name, but not gone down

the rabbit hole. Well, he literally has research from around the world of evidence of extremely old human skeletal remains and artifacts. You know, I mean, he found a skeleton of a Homo sapien sapient that's a million years old, and he documents this as a research investigator, and it's so far away from traditional thought that it spooks academics. And he's you know, he's His work is referenced by everyone from Hancock to Beaval to Robert Schock and so on.

But I mean, getting back to the thought of others who are freshly graduates, what do you feel, well, your perspective is compared to because you actually have videos comparing Hancock to Flint Dibble in this Rogan debate. Yeah, well, you know, as far as people who are my age, again, I did anthropology online and so I didn't really have much of a

connection to anybody that I graduated with or went to school with. Ye. But I will say as far as other people who are young, you know, I guess around my age, the only people I know that have who have degrees in anthropology that around my age kind of doing what I'm doing, are people who are very anti pseudo archaeology. You know. I think that people love to pick teams, and it seems like, yeah, it seems like it's becoming more and more tribal, and it's kind of a trend.

I don't know. I feel like for the last I don't know, let's say twenty five years since The Magical Egypt John Anthony West, or maybe it's thirty years now since since his documentary came out, and it seems like the people on on the alternative side have been putting out media becoming more and more

popular. The other side is starting to put out media now too, so it's becoming kind of tribal, and there are some young guys on that side that are very anti pseudo archaeology and are really at I think I think that they're way too harsh in the way that in the way that some of them speak. But I don't know anybody around my age that's kind of finds themselves

where I'm at. Where where I'm kind of I'm kind of friends with people on both sides, and I don't really care to pick a fight with anybody because it's all we're all just we're all obsessed and theorizing about people that died thousands of years ago. It's you know, my view on ancient history should not make somebody upset, you know. Yeah, And that's kind of where

I'm at. I just refuse to engage in it and become toxic. But to answer your question, I don't know anybody else in my shoes that's quite doing what I'm doing. They're either one side or the other. Yeah, what do you think of Graham Hancock? And by the way, on the second part of that, did you have a chance to see Ancient Apocalypse on Netflix? I did. I watched Ancient Apocalypse. What was your opinion? I thought it was pretty good. I mean I could tell that I wish

that the production style was different. It felt very Uh, I don't know, I think it. I think it. I think it felt a bit ancient Aliens to me. Oh, I didn't want to say that. I thought, yeah, I felt that you might be saying that. But because that's a that's a huge departure. Ancient aliens is so far to the other side it is, it's not yeah, it's not Graham Hancock and ancient Aliens. Guys don't have much in common at all. But to people on the

other side, they group everyone together. But you know, you have you have I don't know Graham, you have Graham Hancock here, Billy Carson here, and ancient aliens over here or you know it just there is a wide spectrum on the on the alt community. You know, you have people who are extremely I would say that I'm you know, I dip my toes in

the alt community. I see things that are that I think that traditional academia's explanations for it don't make sense, or I think that sometimes they're lazy explanations or their explanations that are like, well, we can't come up with a great explanation for that, so let's kind of just ignore it. But let

me just ask you real quickly, yeah, because that the problem. Like, as an example, his very first episode was ganon Penang, this very old structure that is believed now to be one of the earliest pyramids pyramid type structures. Sure. I think the problem is that the dates are so extreme. I mean a conservative date for that place is twenty thousand years ago.

Wow, that's mind blowing to the general consensus. And I think it's just that they can't And I'm really curious if your education is that you are saying there's a hard stop at this date and anything after that is hunters and gatherers. That's don't you think that might be the problem is that the education is saying you're not allowed to go beyond this, you cannot free think this, or you're not part of the group. Yeah, that's interesting that you say

that. Okay, so you know, I don't have an advanced degree in anthropology, but I want you know, it makes me think in my education, we never really the idea that there was even anything beyond you know, six thousand years ago beginning of Mesopotamia was never introduced. It wasn't even something that you would have thought about in the education, if that makes sense. You know, it wasn't like when they taught when they said, okay,

you know, civilization begins in Mesopotamia around four thousand BC. Oh, there's nothing beyond that. It's like you wouldn't even realize to think civilization might go beyond that. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying, there's this hard stop. Sure, sure, yeah, it's not even acknowledged. Yeah, all the books say, all the ancient professors say, there's nothing before, and we're not going to consider anything else because that's just the way Earth

is, you know. Yeah, yeah, well I thought it was. I thought it was so interesting. And it's probably because the curriculum is outdated. But as I was going through, you know, my studies of ancient culture in college, which are you know, it's so you know, I would learn in one semester, I would learn about ten different ancient cultures. So it's like the most surface level. When it came to Egypt, I already knew the answers to everything. You know, it wasn't it wasn't anything

that was that was really overly in depth. But I did find it interesting that we didn't even talk about the possibility of anything before four thousand BC. Nothing, It wasn't mentioned, There was no you know, my professor didn't throw in a tidbit of like, oh, by the way, here's go Beckley Teppe. This is really cool. This is ten thousand years ago or twelve was it twenty thousand plus? Yeah? Yeah, And you know, there was no mention of, oh oh hey, look at this, this

is pretty interesting. And then we have little dots of evidence of civilization growing all the way from Go Beckley Teppe, you know, to Mesopotamia over the course of this six thousand years or so. No mention of it at all, and kind of scary for you though, if you're if Go Beckley Teppy is not mentioned in a current anthropology course, and I don't even know if Robert Sharks considered a legitimate scientist, even though he's a teacher at Boston College.

The sphinx question of it being redated, if that's not being brought up, because that's so much in people's faces, now, that's kind of that's kind of scary, isn't it. Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know. Looking back, I wish that I had actually gotten my degree in person, because I feel like I would have gotten a more visceral understanding of where my professors were coming from or what their viewpoint were on things. And I think that maybe it's because I took my classes online that I got this

like surface level you know, anthropology. But yeah, no, Yeah, it felt it felt very just. I was getting what was acceptable and I was getting whatevery. You know, everybody on the planet agrees that civilization existed in four thousand BC. So if there's any disagreement on anything, you don't hear about it in college. That's kind of what it That's kind of what my curriculum. You know, if it's controversial, we don't talk about it. That's kind of what my entire education felt like. Wow. Yeah,

and I thought it would have been interesting. I would actually preferred to hear this. I would have thought it'd be really cool for my professor. I thought it would I think this would be engaging too for my professor to bring up, you know, something like go Beckley Teppe and do an in depth

discussion on okay, is go Beckley Teppe a civilization. Let's let's learn to how to identify a civilization and what the qualifiers for a civilization are, and let's look at all the data and have my professor go through it and tell me why he does or why he doesn't, or she why she did or did not think that that that was a civilization. Something like that would have been interesting, but it was just not acknowledged at all throughout my entire time

in college. And not just go Beckley Teppy, but I mean any any sites that may predate Mesopotamia were just not acknowledged at all. No, not even the mention of it. That's kind of and that's what I was starting off with, is that. And we have, like I said, we have a lot of people on the show who are field archaeologists. The education is, the foundation is books that were written fifty hundred years ago, and it seems like the trickle down of current data, current finds, current research

is taking its time to get into the books. It's taking it. It's sorry. Yeah, So I mean that's a huge problem if you're not getting current data. I guess that's part two. You become a field archaeologist and that training maybe opens you up to the possibilities. Let's move on, though.

I want you did a very very good YouTube presentation of the Rogan debate with Flint Dibble and Graham Hancock. I want you to kind of summarize your feelings because they both you believe had some good points, but there were some failings on Dibbel. Who represents would you say he represents academia as a university teacher or more just from the standpoint of this is our current history, and why are you trying to screw with it? So okay, answer your question

what you said earlier. When I think of Graham, I like Graham. You know from what most of the stories I hear about him from people who know him, that that people really like him. And I think that what I just think about his research as a whole is I think that he's genuine,

and I think he's put his money where his mouth is. He's traveled all over the world and travel to all these different ancient sites, many times on his own dime, especially in the beginning of his career, and he's he's taken a lot of personal attacks, and you know, willingly put himself through a lot of grief to put out to publish his theories and and his own research. I think on some of the things, because he's kind of it's exactly like I was, is it is it? I'm gonna be butchering

his name, but his name might be Ben Arthur. I just was reading about this yesterday he's one of the initial archaeologists that that excavated the side of Kenosis, which is it's a crete Minoan Greek site, And you know, we owe that guy all of the credit for bringing Minoan society to the forefront, you know, Greek Bronze Age Greece. But he made he made some mistakes, and and I think that Graham Hancock is very similar to him.

We owe him. People on the alt side that are looking at things from a different point of view owe him and the guys like him and his generation a lot of credit. But on some of the things, I think that because he's the pioneer, he's one of the first guys to start looking at things from a different perspective, I think he's shooting over the mark. And I think that people that come behind him and build on his research, we'll get closer and closer and closer to finding some answers, you know. And

so that's what I think of Graham as a person. I do think he's genuine. I think some of his research is a bit over the mark, but then you also see, over the course of his entire career he has adjusted his viewpoints on things because he's one of the first guys to go down this lane, and so of course he's eventually going to reevaluate some of his

viewpoints. So anyways, I don't really have a I have a positive view of Graham and as far as Flint goes, you know, I actually had a correspondence with Flint on Twitter, maybe appro six months ago or so, before he was before he was on before it was announced when the second debate, you know, because they had to reschedule the first debate before the second debate date was announced, I was talking to Flint, and man, he saw that I was, you know, he saw that I was a young

guy trying to approach this from an honest point of view. I wasn't grifting. I wasn't just telling people all the cool, fascinating things that they wanted to hear, you know. And he sent me dozens of resources of things that he would like me to look into. Some some about the Bronze Age, this, that and the other, and some some really high level academic resources he sent me. And so I think that when he approaches I think that his approach to the to the debate, I don't know that well,

you know, I mean, he's part of the Saya. So I guess he's sort of speaking on behalf of the archaeological community, and he was really the only guy with the guts to actually step into the ring. There were tons of other people that got the the guy got that got the invite. But I think that he is sort of not really drawing a hard line as far as like, you know, this is what we know. You know, don't tread beyond this, don't tread beyond this. Why are you trying

to mess with the status quo. I think his whole disagreement was just Flint was just with Graham's theory that there was an early unknown civilization. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think, you know, he was coming on to disprove that. And I'll say a couple of things about the debate. One, I think it was so clouded by things that didn't even need to be mentioned. Number One, Flint should have never ever insinuated that Graham was a racist. That it's it's uncalled for, it's it's not true as

he that. You know, when you throw a racist out there, that's like the worst insult. That's pretty brutal body. And so you know, it wasn't just Flint, you know, Flint's like one of the more unknown guys before the debate that that would ever insinuate that about Graham. But you could tell the entire debate that Graham was was really frustrated by the attacks on

him. And so I think that that the debate, while the audience came to it expecting the debate to beut to be about a lost you know, twelve thousand years old, twelve thousand year old Ice Age civilization, the debate sort of also became about our traditional archaeologist or establishment archaeologists trying to stifle Graham and trying to stifle Graham and slander him in ways that aren't true, because that that's what I felt like a lot of the debate became about. And

I think that the audience didn't really want to hear that. They just wanted to hear the archaeology. But when Graham has been personally getting attacked, he also came in defensively, and I think, I think rightfully so, but I think that I think that the whole debate became clouded by modern day political socio political drama that shouldn't have been involved in that debate. And then and

as far as the argument. I think that I think that Flints uh you know, I know that there's some things that are coming out now that people that are that's people are talking about that supposedly Flint misrepresented some data. This isn't something that I have jumped back into the rabbit hole about and to see

what exactly he misrepresented. But I think that his approach, you know, because he studies, He studied agriculture of the Bronze Age, and so he kind of breaks down, well, you know, we would see agriculture traveling across different parts of the world if there was this lost civilization. And I thought that I thought that there were some good points there, But I don't really know that that argument hits home with the popular audience. You know.

Yeah, it was a specialized debate, Yeah yeah, yeah. So and then and then you know, the the the meat and potatoes of what this whole argument sits on is ancient Egypt. And in a four and a half hour debate, the last forty minutes of it, only the last forty minutes of it we got talking about ancient Egypt. We spent the first three hours

and forty minutes talking about talking about boats. You know, potential boats, you know, four hundred feet off the coast of you know, the America's coastlines and everything, and about agriculture and about whether or not whether or not archaeologists are actually trying to stifle Graham, and I think I and I know millions of other people just wanted to hear them argue about the or debate the the archaeology. So to be honest, I was just I was a little

disappointed with the debate. I'm going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, Luke Cavern's talking about his own development as an anthropologist, but also some of his ideas and theories on Earth's ancient civilizations. Will be right back. My guest today is Luke Cavern's coming to us from Austin, Texas, and he's talking about his development as a history buff not only that, his education

and his eventual degree in anthropology. Some of the new data coming out from people like Graham, Hancock, Robert Beaval, and others who are in the what is considered the alternative history genre, and we're getting a sense of how that works for him in the balance between complementary history, academic history, and the alternative look at the ancient past. Why do you think the archaeological community is so threatened by Graham Hancock? Why are they threatened? Is it because

he's a very bright guy and he backs up his research. I mean his books, our classroom texts are so rich in data. And you know he used to work, he used to write for The Economic Economist years back. But I mean he's not just writing for the general pleasure of it. He's writing really tomes and packed database facts. And I'm wondering if that's a threat for them. You know where I think that we stand right now. I think that this is what's happened. I think that, you know, all

of a sudden, there became this in the nineties. There became this little popular group of guys. So you know, you have John Anthony West, Robert Schock, Graham Hancock, Robertavalld. You know, there's there's there's there's that little group there. And you know you have on these guys on the alternative side. You know, you have you have such a wide range, so you have you know, Eric von Danakin and and uh ancient Aliens and ancient aliens and who was the Zacharia sitchen, you know, Yeah, and

then then you have John Anthony West. All these guys well from the opposing guy, from the opposing side, they all get clumped together and when really there's a there's just so many different shades of gray between these guys. But you had this little group of guys who, while they had alternative views, I've always been pretty conservative. You know. Graham Hancock isn't running around talking about how aliens, you know, descended down under the earth and that all

the pyramids are landing pads. Heat's not doing that. And so you had this little group of guys that seem reasonable to a popular audience and then boom they explode and become really popular in the nineties and have remained popular. And I think that while I wasn't really alive at the time, I think that they received a lot of unnecessary attack during that time period, and then they attacked back. And you have people who were young during that time growing up

listening to Graham Hancock, this, that, and the other attack. Archaeologists back and now they think that Graham Hancock and all these other guys are responsible for this popularized way of attack on archaeology when I think it was just a group of some pretty vindictive magazines back in the nineties that launched attacks on Graham

Hancock and these guys. And they started this thirty years ago. And so now you have people, like I was saying, young people my age who are archaeologists and you know, align very much with the traditional I don't even know what the sides are even called anymore, but with the EXTRADI yeah, they aligned very much with the with the academic side, and they come at Graham Hancock. You know, I don't think I've ever seen it's kind of

like the debate the other day. I don't think I've ever seen people talking the way that they talk now. And so I think that I think that they feel threatened by Graham Hancock because they hear the attacks or the things that

Graham Hancock has said about archaeologists over the last thirty years. But also, Graham didn't start this, you know, he didn't begin the attacks, as to min and so I think that's what's happening is we're, you know, three decades deep into something and people don't even realize how this all began.

If that makes sense, Yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned that it's all kind of you're saying that the academics are looking at it from not only Hancock but also Eric von Donnegan and the ancient alien theories, which are hugely popular on TV. But it kind of blurs the line for anything else because not only are they they're not sticking with the ancient alien thing, they bleed into traditional archaeology. We were just talking about Ed Barnhardt. Ed has

been on Ancient Aliens probably like fifteen times. And he'll tell me, though, he will, I think it's I think it's sixty. I think he's been in sixty sixty episodes. I think, yeah, I didn't know was that many. But the funny thing about it is he's told me blank, flat out, he says, I don't talk about aliens. I talk about my research, my work, and they somehow blended in so it's legitimized. Sure. So, And this is the real problem with Ancient Aliens is that

they'll they'll kind across the lines and they'll just blur the whole idea. Yeah, the the theory behind ancient aliens coming and creating civilization. Yeah, yeah, Well, and I think I think that there are people, I think they are archaeologists out there who are resentful at you know, they they stand so far on the other side, they cannot see that there is a vast difference between Graham, Hancock, ancient aliens, guys, you know, and

they can't see if there's a vast difference there. And then so they I think that they feel resentful how popular these guys are, and how good of storytellers they are, and how much they how much the audience reciprocates what they're talking about. Yeah, and they resent that and they don't like that all the attention is on them. But I think that archaeology has a real problem.

In what they call science communication, there is nobody maybe I shouldn't say nobody, but very very very few people that are you know, not alt at all, just you know, academics through and through that are great science

communicators that can reach out to a general audience and get them interested. Why that is, I don't know, you know, I don't know, if I don't know, if you know, if I had gone to go get my PhD in anthropology and picked a certain specialty, if by the time I get out of that end of research, I have now lost my ability to communicate, to communicate well with a popular audience at the end of that, because that's what it feels like, they go down this long rabbit hole,

and then on the other side they've lost their ability to connect with people with a general audience of people who are interested in what they're doing. And also those people are the people that give donations to fund their research. If that makes sense. Yeah, it's kind of crazy, schizophrenic. So that's why, you know, I don't have a strong opinion of Flint personally. To me, he was very generous and didn't have to be, but I cringed

a little bit, and I don't he didn't realize he did this. But you know, the the SAA, they tried to they tried to get they sent out letters to try to get the to try to get Ancient Apocalypse shut down, right, and and Flint is a part of that organization. And then at the end he's talking about how archaeological programs all over the world and all these universities are being shut down, and I think that two programs at his college that he works at, which is in Wales, were being shut

down. He mentioned all these others and then and then Graham Hancock is like, yes, and we don't want that to happen. We want archaeology to continue because you know, everything that Graham does is built on this ocean of archaeological data that he pulls from. And Joe Rogan as well, he was like, yeah, we don't want that. What can people do? You know, what can people do to help out these these organizations? And then Flint goes, well, you can donate to the SSAA, And then I

go, I go, I got. I'm like and they're the ones calling Graham a racist, and they're anything that that that is questioned is a problem for them. Yeah, And and where all the public interest is, all the public fascination, where all the money is at is in the popular general audience. And the reason that people love Graham is because he's reaching out and

connecting with them and showing them that the ancient world is fascinating. There are tons of people out there that just want to be romantically caught up in the ancient world. So many of my videos don't even talk about Atlantis. I just talk about it in a romantic way where people can tell that I'm in love with ancient history, and people people reciprocate that that's what they want.

But a lot of times I feel like academics have a real problem with being able to communicate the romance of archaeology, and the romance of archaeology, I should remind you, is deeply tied into like modern day Western culture. You know, this idea of an archaeologist going off and discovering something. Now they've made that racist. So you can't like that. You can't like anything that's romantic, you know, and they've taken away all the soul of everything.

And not all of them, but there are some that are exceptional, like Bob Bryer. If anybody here is listening, he's very old now, But Bob Bryer, he's a traditional Egyptologist. Oh my gosh, his lectures are amazing. You can tell that guy. Yeah, he's in love with Egypt and it's infectious. And I think that they just have a real problem with

with science communication. And so if guys like Flint Dibble, you know, if they would see Graham as a useful, you know, tool in the overall archaeological world, they could just tell Graham, Hey, Graham, well, you know, let's try to work together and get some funding because you know, I would love that. Have you have you seen have you seen that that exca not completely, but a lot of excavations at Go Beckley Teppe are being put on pause for like, this is the huge problem. Go

Becky Teppe has not ad any major excavations apparently in almost ten years. Yeah. Well, and imagine imagine what you know, if these archaeological organizations, if they could reach out to guys like Graham and be like, hey, you know, we want to acquire funding to further protect these sites and excavate them. We're just going to tell you straight up, We're not going to disparage you, but we're also not going to We're also not going to adhere

to what your theories are. You're not going to be in control. But if you can help us get funding, this, that, and the other, we can work to make a documentary together about the site. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. They can work together to preserve and further excavate all these sites, but they choose to attack the people that have a vice grip on those that might be able to further donate to their cause. You know that you're right they should find a middle ground that they can work within,

and you know, help help move this. Let's move along a little bit. I am fascinated. You've had a couple of presentations where you're discussing what I call out of place artifacts. And you know, we had a number of people that were on the Cosmic Summit conference recently and one of the topics there was these ancient stone vases and you had a chance to see them. And is it it's Mark Bell's collection? Matts Matt Bell? Excuse me?

And you did you actually fly to Florida to see them personally talk about them, talk about this collection? Well, okay, so I'll tell you. I heard so. John Anthony West long time ago, you know, thirty years ago, wrote about wrote about the vases, just very briefly. And so there's been this slow, slow, slow, slow, slow,

uh interest in and progressive obsession with them. And then I saw Ben van Kirkwick, I saw his presentation on Tarta X. I saw his presentation on the vases at Cosmic Summit in twenty twenty three, and I thought, this is pretty fascinating, it's pretty cool. I don't know exactly what I think of these vases, but it's pretty cool. And then I got this,

Uh, I got this email. This is a funny story. Uh So I got like multiple emails from the assistant of this guy named Matt Bell and uh and and so I keep getting these emails and then you know, he's like, I'd love to I'd love to, you know, fly you in? Have you come? You know you can you can check out these vases that I got. And I learned, Oh, okay, so this guy he's a he's a collector of these vases. This is pretty cool. Oh he's starting his own podcast. But you know, he's just getting his podcast

off the ground. And so I didn't know what to think of him. I never heard the name do anything, didn't know anything about him. And then so eventually I was like, I was like, you know what, I'm I'm gonna go back to Florida. I had just been on Danny Jones. Uh So I was like, well, I'm gonna fly back to Florida and and go on this this guy's little podcast. He seems really nice and genuine, but I don't know anything about him. And uh, I didn't

even research him before I before I flew out there. And uh, but so I went out there, and then you know, we have we have dinner, and uh, we have dinner, and there's a there's a point in the conversation where you know, he's asking me about my personal life and then and and so I go I I just asked him, I saying, oh, so, what do you do for a living? And uh? And then he like looks down and he's a really humble guy, and he goes, he goes, well, you know, I'm I'm the CEO of

Bell's, Inc. And I was like, never heard of that? And and I didn't know either. I didn't It was yeah, yeah, stores in Florida. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got, I got. I never heard of that. And he's like, well, you know, maybe you've seen the logo or something. So I so I I pull out my phone and I'm like like, all right, yeah, let me let me look it up. So I look up Bells and then immediately I recognized the logo. And my mom worked for him in college to get her to

get herself through college. So we have some of these stores in Texas, and all of a sudden, I looked up from the table and I realized the table that I was the table I was having dinner at and all of a sudden, like, uh, you know, who I was speaking to came into perspective. But uh, he's a great guy and we've become really good friends. She mentioned also that he's very wealthy and this is the only way you could get because these vases are like ten thousand apiece. Yeah,

yeah, these ten thousand dollars or more. Sure, yeah, yeah, some of them. Some of them are very expensive. And so the next day we went to uh so the next day. But you would never know it when you when you he's very humble and at Cosmic Summit, I was a Cosmic Summing. I was sitting there looking out at the crowd, and I can see Matt and he's just, you know, sitting amongst everybody else. Nobody would ever know, you know that this guy is the CEO of

Bells. You would not know. And uh, yeah, he's he's an amazing guy. So so I go to you know, he sends me the location to go to the next day and and so I meet him there and we walk into this room. He's got the vases. He's got the vases there, and yeah, it was it was actually probably shouldn't include that little part about sent me the location. I just you know, it's like it's like a one point five million dollars, so maybe cut that little part out.

But anyways, so so the next day I got to see the vases in person, and the very first time that I held the vases, you immediately understand the significance of it, just the first time you hold him. Because I was asking him, I was like like, yeah, I'm a little nervous to hold him. You know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to drop them. And he was like, he's like, he's like, well, one, I don't think you're going to drop them, and if you did, I don't think anything would happen to

him. And I said really, and he goes, he goes, yeah, yeah. You know. One time I was driving and I had to I had to hit my brakes a little bit, and the uh and the vases flung forward and I think he said, one hit the dash and he was like he's like, he's like and I realized it's more likely that it's going to hurt the dash then it's gonna hurt anything else. He's like, they were totally fine. So as soon as you picked him up. Even though some of the walls are ultra ultra thin, they are solid, man,

and they're heavy, and you can feel how old they are. I don't know how to describe that. Like I sometimes I think that there are things that human beings can feel and know that are not uh, they can't be tested. But you just know when you're holding this thing that it's immensely old. And what what But let me stop you when you say you can tell something. What is that statement that you think that are immensely old? Because when you look at him and we had been on the program a few

weeks ago and he is doing a lot of testing right now. Yeah, but what is that frame of reference that you're saying they feel extremely old? Why would you say that? Okay, so I guess, I guess maybe it's just it's just a combination of like the senses that you have when you're holding them, you know, so you're looking at them and you can see, you know, sometimes when things have been in the ground for a really,

really really long time. You could clean that thing as much as you want, but you're never gonna get five thousand years worth of aging out of it, you know, at least five thousand years, I should say. And so I'm holding you know, I'm holding the iconic brown base, but he's got dozens of them there. And tell you what I've got here, yours. This is a three D scan of it. Oh, this is this is that's the one that this is. This is the vase. Is

that Chris Dunn's reproduction? Well, no, this one that Matt made, but he sent it to me. Oh yeah, yeah. So it's got all the little grooves and stuff in it. Yeah. So I'm holding the real version of this phase. And in all the little grooves there's little little tiny fragments of dust. And when you smell it, you can just smell. I do not explain it other than you can smell its age. And anybody who anybody who has held these things in person, you immediately feel its

significance. And and that's why I say that, Like I you know, sometimes I wonder if human beings, if there's this next level of science or reality, things that we don't have the ability to test, but human beings intuitively know. And as soon as I held it, I immediately understood it significantly. Very good. Yeah, and intuition takes over sure, Yeah, And up to that point, I was very not skeptical, but just didn't

have any opinion on it at all. I was just like, well, these are going to be cool to see held the first base and I was like, oh, wow, have you been to Sakara. I haven't been yet. I will be in January. Yeah, because I mean we go there every year, we do tours there and they found forty thousand of these things on the underneath the doj Or pyramid yep. And so but when you went with him and you were holding them, what does he say? Did he have any opinion other than they're very cool? Yeah? Yeah, well

no he does not. He he won't. You know. He was just on Danny Jones. Matt was and Danny asked him like multiple times, you know, what do you think the uses of these things were? And and I think that he has purposely tried to stay away from speculation and making things sound too over the top because he's trying to get these scanned by by you know, museums and get them, you know, scanned and looked at by

some some other pfessionals to take it seriously. And I think he's purposely staying away from speculation as to not draw like negative unwanted attention, which is smart, and so he does not. He does not have a theory. He asks other people. He's asked me a couple of times, you know, what do you think that they were used for? And uh, And to be honest, I don't. I don't know. You know, I would think like, possibly it's keeping up with the tradition, or maybe it's the

beginning of the tradition of canopic jars. You know, people storing their organs inside these when they're buried. But they've done chemical analyses on them and they don't find that organic matter in these. Can you stretch your mind a little bit because Ben now believes that these are part of a machine. Well, the only thing about that is is I have no idea. I wouldn't. I don't know, you know, the you know, we're talking about a

time and that at the very least these are five thousand years old. No, no, no, they're older than that. At the very least, they're five thousand, two hundred years old. We know so little about the people who who were buried with these things, let alone the people who made them. We don't know if they're the same people or not. We know almost nothing about these people. And when you're trying to look at like for

ancient technology, here's something really interesting. For example, have you ever seen the anti Cathera mechanism. I know you have that. We had programs on it. Yeah, I think it's really kind of out of place. Oh, it's a it's an incredible artifact. But we have from literary sources we know that, so you know, it's made out of bronze. It is

a it's a handheld model of their solar system that the Greeks recognized. That device was being sold on the streets of Syracuse and Alexandria found one fifty BC. And that's not a very known like little fact. But we still only find that one artifact because we don't know when. We have no idea when exactly this happened. Either they were all taken and hidden away somewhere, or they're all still buried under the ground somewhere, or they were melted down and

turned into bronze swords by the Romans. There were so many of them that they were being sold on the street, and yet we only have the one that was found in a shipwreck, you know, from like fifty BC. Or something. So when you're going back another three thousand years at least before that, I mean, now you're talking about swimming through this primordial sea of early civilization that we don't know anything about. So I think that there were

definitely ancient machines existing back then. I mean Herodotus when he's going through Egypt and four fifty BC and he's speaking to these Egyptian you know, tour guides or whatever exactly they are are, they are telling him that the pyramids were built with machines. I can go get Heroditis histories right now and read that passage to you. Does he actually say that that the uh, the Egyptians are saying we used unknown machines to build the blocks on them. No,

No, they don't say they don't say unknown machines. He just says he uses some kind of word that is a synonym to machines, that they were built using machines. Okay, And and I don't know that he elaborates on that very much. Yeah, but yeah, I mean even Heroditus he's hearing that in four fifty BC that the Egyptians are telling him that and so and at the same time, even if the pyramids are from twenty five twenty six

hundred BC. The Egyptians living two thousand years later are not the same population of people almost at all. It's just they're so disconnected from that. But even they are saying, through one means or another, that that the pyramids were built using ancient machines of some kind. And these right here are the evidence of some kind of ancient machining of some kind. Now as far as these being a part of the machine, I don't know. You know, I have no idea. I think I can see why he says that.

I've talked to him about it a couple of times, and but you know, I don't have that. I don't have that technological engineering mind. But yeah, I mean I think it's interesting, and I definitely think that there were machines of some kind around and you know, pre three thousand BC. Why why, though, why do egypt We have a lot of great Egyptologists. I don't know. If you know doctor Carrie Cooney, who's in the UCLA all the time, she says stuff that blows me away. She we

had her on a couple of years ago. She says, Egyptology is dead. She said that really oh yeah, and it was quoted all over the place, and she says that because they can't get out of their own way discoveries like that, the Serrapem, they can't explain, they can't explain the Osirian, which is this huge megalithic block structure underneath the ground, and they

just say it's all the dynastics and it just doesn't work anymore. But when we have this issue of Egyptology saying, you know, they were at this level of technology and then you're holding this stone carved obviously cut on the lathe technology, there's a disconnect. Yeah, I totally I totally agree. I think that I think that possibly I would have to listen to her quote more

when she said when she said she said Egyptology is dead. Yeah, you know, I think that that sentiment probably is applicable to a lot of specialized research. Yeah, yeah, it is. It is, you know, because they are so vehemently against, so vehemily opposed to people that could help further and fund their research, that they're gonna strangle they You're going to strangle

their whole profession. You know, you have to you have to be amicable, amicable with people and and use, you know, everything to u to the advantage of your research. And so I think that I think that there are a lot of things that are going on in Egypt, a lot of bad stuff that's going on in Egypt that has stifled Egyptology for a while now. And I'll just say, like as simply as uh as man selling, selling a mummy is a lot more profitable than a million people walking into the

Cairo Museum. There are I mean, and that didn't you have anything to do with like hiding well, I mean, I guess it is hiding archaeological finds or you know, it's not even them shutting down people's theories. It's like, okay, I have control over this. I have direct control over this archaeological site. We are out here in kind of a secluded area where we can dig down into the ground and no one can see what we're doing.

And we have all these tents up and we're gonna pull out priceless artifacts and sell them on a black market, and we are gonna make millions doing this. You know, they sell them to Americans, they sell them to American billionaires, they sell them to you know, European billionaires all over the world. I mean not even that. He probably billionaires in Africa all over the world, and they're selling they're selling human bodies, they're selling priceless artifacts.

Sarcopha guy, it's you know what I mean, it's it's corrupt and and so yeah, yeah, it's just it's like any other field. It's like any other field. If you have human beings controlling it, there's gonna be corruption. Exactly. Hey, as we conclude, and by the way, this has been fun. Your sweet spot is meso America and you talk about it all the time, and you have an interest, and you've done a program on the Olmech what what do you think is the big question mark?

Uh? On the Olmec. And by the way, we had ed Barnhardt do a program and we just finished a tour last November UH in Dabasco and we saw some of these amazing artifacts that are attributed to the to the Omec. But what's what's your interest in the Olmec? Oh? I think I think that my interest in my interest in the Olmecs is actually it's kind of similar to my interest in in early Egypt. They are very similar cultures. We don't really know exactly well, I mean even more so, like

if you take the t if you take the traditional Egypt's logical explanation. You know, it's commonly said among enthusiasts of ancient Egypt that it feels like, you know, Egypt just boom appears on the archaeological record and they're building pyramids from the very beginning. Well, if you get down into it, you know, we actually have like according to the traditional explanation, there's like five or six hundred years leading up to the first pyramid where they think that they

know a little bit of what was going on in that world. In the Olmes, that is not the case. We hardly have any archaeological data before the heads at all. Basically none from the very beginning, from day one. According you know, according to the evidence we have, they are can they are They're coreying, cutting, transporting, and then carving these heads from the very beginning of their society, and they appear out of nowhere, you

know. There. Yeah, it was, it was really cool. I was standing at San Lorenzo uh with Ed earlier this year, just a couple few months ago, and and I was standing there and it was the first time that I've ever stood at a fertile crescent site. You know, it was my my first and I have like six more ago and so I'm standing there. I'm standing there looking around at this field, and I'm like, like, civilization began in here. You know, people started building earth in

pyramids and mounds and palaces here. Why you know, why did civilization? How did it start here? And how did they when you look at when you look at Monument nineteen where you see the ole mech man holding the little handbag and while he's sitting inside of the while he's sitting inside of the feathered serpent, you look at that carved into basalt, and people don't realize basalt on the most scale is as hard as dirite and granite, and they're carving

into one of the hardest rocks in their area. There's tons of limestone. In fact, they are actually outsourcing basalt from the Sierra de la Tucilla mountains that are one hundred miles away. They're they're bringing that basalt in and then carving it. And you look at the you look at the esthetics of their artwork and how masterful, how masterful all of it is, and that they have their own style, like their style is not an actual representation of what

those people look like. They literally have an art style. Where did that? How do you even think to do that? To make to make artifacts, you know, to to to make a stone head that's two feet tall and one half of the head rather than having eyes, you have this rectangular square eye with this you know, grimacing brow and this facial features. Yeah, it's I mean, where do you come up with that? And then the second half of the head it looks like it's eroded away, but it's

not. It's turned into smoke. Yeah, carved out of carved out of stone. Where do you come up with this? You know? And I think that that's fascinating because it is one of the best examples of what we of what everybody ancient civilization, theorist, academics, archaeologist, everyone agrees that this is a lost civilization. We don't know what language they spoke, We don't know what they called themselves. We don't know why they carved the heads,

We don't know if they had any gods. We think that there's evidence for you know, six or seven gods maybe, but maybe they're not actually gods. We don't know. We don't know why they would make twenty eight layer mosaics all stacked, you know, like Greek and Roman mosaics. They

carved the same thing out of serpentine blocks. You saw it at Leaventa Yea, And that little mosaic that's carved on the serpenteen blocks that's twenty eight layers deep and it's like one thousand, four hundred pounds or something like that, all buried into the ground at the same time and covered up so when they were done no one could see it. The last you know, the top layer was not sitting above the surface, it was completely buried. There's so

many things about that culture that nobody can explain. And it's like the number one example of a lost civilation that we have discovered and we know nothing about them. And I think that studying them informs the study of a lost civilization in other places around the world, if that makes sense. Yeah, amazing, Luke Caverns. It's been a pleasure of getting to know you and uh, you have a fascinating the things to consider in the future. How can

people get a hold of you? You have a website, no website yet. My website's in development, but you can find me on anything by just my name, Luke gaverns l u K E c A v E r n s okay, excellent, And give us an update on what tours you're doing for the US. You're doing a couple at the end of the year, you're doing one with Ed, But what else is coming up for you in terms of yeah, yeah, so I'm doing I'm doing a tour. I'm doing an Olmec tour. It's called it's an o My Tour, but it's

also called Megalithic Mexico. And and that's the tour I'm doing in December where we will be beginning in Tabasco, Mexico at the Leventa Park and and driving over the course of eight or nine days all the way back to Mexico City. And during this tour, people will see, well, one, you'll see all seventeen known basalt Olmec heads. You'll see all of them. You're gonna go find all of them, huh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah,

So so we're gonna see all of them. And then and then there are also three colossal limestone heads that people are gonna see that you almost you almost never see these publicized anywhere. And then in the last few days of the tour, we're gonna be seeing other megaliths in Mexico that are kept in these big museums, some of them on archaeological sites. But you're gonna see you're gonna see the biggest collection of Mexican megaliths that you would see on anywhere

else. And it's really cool, and I think there's a lot that there's a lot of places that people are gonna walk into and be absolutely mind blown at the things that exist that they'd never seen before. I was for sure. Are you gonna go to the National Ethropological Museum in Mexico City, Yes, that's the day, that's the second to last day. Yeah, because that's where there's a ton of big pieces. My gosh, man, the the the the Atlantean tula statues that are there, and then the the Teoti

wa Kan statue that's out in front of the museum. Oh man, I mean you're talking about something that's you're talking about some megaliths there that are bigger than the vast majority of monuments in Egypt. Like there's a handful of monuments that are bigger than Mexico's biggest megalith. I mean, it's yeah, yeah, you know, I think the statue of the Colossi of the Ramaseum, you know, is is that's like one of the only things that's bigger than

Mexico's biggest megaliths, So really cool stuff. So that's what we're doing. And then following that, I'm doing the Cleopatra's Egypt Tour in January, and that's from Alexandria down to Aswant. So for two weeks we'll be sailing from Alexandria and we'll see every main site. But basically what we're doing is kind

of investigating one of the more unknown parts of Egypt. You know, we don't really understand the beginning of Egypt and we don't really understand the end of it, and so this is kind of this is kind of a tour of Egypt, looking at the mysteries of Egypt through people who were living and collecting knowledge in the city of Alexandria, working at the library, and so it's kind of a it's kind of a new take on ancient Egypt. I like that nice, yeah, and so yeah, that's that's what I have planned

for the end of the year beginning of twenty twenty five. Maybe if you cross your fingers. Maybe the Grand Egyptian Museum will be open by then, because it's been seven years in delay and has the largest collection of artifacts in the world, over a million pieces. Oh man, I know one thing that I'm one thing that I'm going to do in the future, and one thing I'm excited about for this Egypt tour. For the Egypt tour, I don't think a lot of tours go to the h to the the Alexandrian museums.

There's a couple there, yeah, and I don't know if you've ever been to them, but there's been that part. Now. There's there's some strange stuff there, like there's a there are granite and dire wte statues that were carved in Alexandria that depict Roman emperors and Greek kings. There's a there's

a solid granite bust of Alexander the Great there. And so one of the things I've been researching, I just started this series on YouTube called Alexandria is kind of investigating this possibility that I think that that Greco Roman Egyptians that are all living in Alexandria, and Alexandria is a lost city. It's completely covered up completely destroyed. It was destroyed multiple times in antiquity. It's under most

of it's underwater too. Yeah, and I think that they were working with the Egyptians, and I think that they re engineered, rediscovered a lot of forms of ancient techniques, ancient technology, ancient machining of some kind. And we're able to reproduce a lot of artifacts that we saw in the earliest periods of ancient Egypt. But we don't really have much of an image of the end of Egypt because the whole city is gone and a lot of the artifacts

are still under the ground. And Alexandria is one of the most heavily looted cities that ever existed, so you know, a lot of these artifacts don't even exist. So I think that that's a really interesting area of study. Final thing I'll say is one of the things I'm inted in doing is taking

people. When you were talking about the Cairo Museum being one of the biggest collections in the world, did you know that the Boston Museum has it's either forty or seventy thousand Egyptian artifacts And there are three museums around Boston and two museums in New York that have huge collections of Egyptian artifacts, and I was thinking about possibly twenty twenty five doing an American egypt tour, you know, something that's not too expensive, but you know, maybe something over spring break

where you know, everyone flies in or drives up to Boston. We all get together and we go to these different museums and see all the artifacts that are there. And they have tons of vases there. They have thousands of vases collectively in all these museums and clouds a stone vases you mean, yes, yeah, yeah, there there are two in the in the museum here in San Antonio. They're everywhere. There are tens of thousands, maybe over one hundred thousands of these vases in the world. And so yeah, I

want to do something like that. I think that'd be pretty fun, very cool. Hey man, it's been a pleasure. Let's do it again sometime in the future. I think at some point you should start maybe and this is always a lot because I'm writing. I have two books that are due. But you know, you might think of your point of view and you know, do an e book or something, because it'd be fun to get your points of view. You have a real fresh perspective that I think people

need to hear from. Tell you what, I will show you something right now that I'm working on that I have never announced anywhere else. That is a book I'm writing. I don't know that. I don't know if it's backwards, but Atlantis, I didn't see it. The Atlantis of the Atlantis

of one's own. Wow. Yeah, and Atlantis of one's own And it's and it's basically it's basically covering the two thousand year search for Atlantis and you know, all the way back from the time, all the way basically basically, you know, beginning with Plato, and it's covering all the people who

have searched for Atlantis. And and eventually it comes to a point where I think that everyone now, because it's such a popular idea, everybody has their own idea of what Atlantis is. And it's kind of a collection of the evidence and a collection of the people who have searched for it. And that's why it's called an Atlantis of one's own, because now it's become so mythological

and it's so ingreded. You know, it's an important aspect. It's like a cornerstone of society now, and that's kind of what the book is, just exploring that when you're ready to release it, let's have you back, man, let's have you back. Yeah, yeah, promote it. Yeah, that one will be a while. There's there's a book that I've already announced. I'll show you on here, but there's a book I've already announced. It's called The ole mech Enigma. Oh cool, And so that's just

that's just investigating the old mix that'll probably be out twenty twenty five. Is that an e book or is that going to be hard? Yeah, it'll it'll it'll be it'll be paperback, paperback and ebook and then I'm going to I'm going to read the the audiobook too, so self published, self published. Yeah cool, excellent. Congratulations man, Yeah, all right, we'll have to have you back. Hey, look, really appreciate your time.

And uh, we'll connect and hopefully we'll meet one of these days at one of these conferences or perhaps I'll be at Sea Pack if you'll be there. I think I might. Are you speaking at Sea Pack? I am? I think we're gonna be there. It's going to be in the a city, which is not too far from where I live here in the Bay Area. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very cool. Hey, well again, thanks for your time and uh great having you on the program. Yeah, man, hey, thank you so much. It's been a

pleasure and it's an honor. You're you're you're like a cornerstone of this ancient mystery, uh you know genre, and so I appreciate it. I really do. Oh that was fun. It's good to speak with him and really got a sense of what his interest is, which is what I wanted to know, because you know, you look at his YouTube channel and his his commentaries are right on. They're not flippant, they're they're not directed to hurt

or defame anyone. He's just once he's just presenting his view or a review of you know, various people who claim to be experts and claim alternative versus traditional history. This is what Earth Ancients is all about. I have questioned a great deal of history since I was a kid, and it looks like he does too. So we're a good fit. Two peas in a pod, so to speak. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed that, and I'm definitely gonna have look back. And it looks like he may be part of

a couple of our tours, so be listening for upcoming tour programs. And by the way, this coming week we are announcing and it's almost full, but we're announcing our two thousand and twenty five March Easter Island tour led by doctor Edwin Barnhardt, and we're just about ready to release the data. If you're interested in that tour, send me an email. Send it to Earth Ancients the number four of the letter you at gmail dot com, and I'll

put you on the list to get details. I think we're full, but sending to your stuff anyhow, because people are you know, could be a conflicted time. This happens all the time. We get a list of people who want to come to a specific tour and all of a sudden they're like, well, you know, I can't. My mom's not feeling good. I gotta stick around. Or I thought I could get the time off and I can't. So we're taking a small group. I don't think we're going

to go over thirty people, and I think we have twenty five. I don't know. We're very close to making our tour numbers, but anyhow, so we'll be announcing our tour schedule. We're not going to Egypt in twenty twenty five. We're going to be in Easter Island. We are going to be in Guatemala, we are probably going to be back in Turkey. So that's the three tours a year for me. That's about it. That's about all I can do. I don't have the time to do anything more than

that. So anyhow, we'll see look again in the near future. So fun having them on the program. And check out Luke Cavern's on YouTube. His YouTube channel is very well put together. He's got good editing quality that sounds great, the backgrounds are great, and I appreciate his point of view, so I think you might too. Hey, if you're enjoying Earth Ancients and Destiny and our special edition programming, please consider becoming a subscriber of Patreon.

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Every twenty to thirty days, I post a new ebook. We've got a new one up there, just posted it and these are thank yous from our various authors who are on our program. And there's also unpublished interviews, and there are some some galleries and other content that is kind of interesting. I'm gonna be launching a chat once a month. I'll meet with everyone on the platform and just kind of talk about what's going on, what's on your mind, and so forth and so on. Again. Help us out.

Become a subscriber. Go to patreon dot com Forward Slash Earth Ancients. Okay, that's it for today's program. I want to thank my guest today, Luke Caravans, coming to us from Texas as always the team of Ruth Thomas, Mark Foster, and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys rock all right, take care of you well, and we will talk to you again.