Joshua Hammer: The Mesopotamian Riddle

I've been interested. I've talked to Graham Hancock about it. I've talked to Robert Schock, who wrote extensively about his experience there. And we're really fortunate to be going to the island with Ed Barnhardt. And Ed, as you know, is an archaeologist who has spent a great deal of

time there. In fact, he was there just before COVID hit around twenty nineteen and had worked with the local administration to survey and really plot what was known and what is not known about the settlements on the island. What he told me, and we're going to have him back on the program. Actually We did have him talk about Easter Island in the past, but if you remember, he did some work with the previous administration and then when the COVID hit, that administration left and there's a

new administration. So part of the trip that we're visiting and going to take is including a reconnection with the new administration so he can finish his work. So I don't know what that entails, and we'll have on to Ed on the program to talk more about what he discovered during his survey, but also what he's gonna discover, what he's gonna do while we're on this tour with him. So it's gonna be fun. I guess what that means is he's gonna do a little work along with touring

and showing us what the island's all about. You know, I've always seen these amazing pictures of these moai, these huge fifty eighty ton stone sculptures that are at the perimeter and all over. They're skeedtered all over the place. I've always wondered what they look like up close and personal. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. I'm bringing all my equipment to show you as much details as possible, so

look forward to that. Hey, this is Cliff, your host of Earth Ancients, and I hope you're doing well today. You know, it's a great deal of fun to visit these places. And if you've ever wondered and ever wanted to come along with a good tour, Earth Ancients does usually about three tours a year, and we have one

coming up in Turkey. It's June twenty second through July second, and it includes a number of archaeologists, includes a number of private visits the places like go Beckley, Teppy, Carahan Teppe, and then we'll have a guide take us down into the underground city of darren Kuru. So we're doing tons of stuff on this tour. We're about halfway full. If you're interested in touring whatsoever, and I gotta tell you Earth Ancients is really a great place to start. Consider us.

Consider Earth Ancients for the Turkey tour. And also I've just finished a dialogue with uh Lydia Di Leong and her husband Arturo. We're going to do a Sacred Pyramid tour in Guatemala December first, that first week of December twenty twenty five. And this has just been somewhat completed in terms of an understanding of what we want to do.

The itinerary won't be out for another couple of weeks, but if you have interest in any of the tours that we're doing, send me an email, send it to earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com and I'll get right back to you. Now. For all the details on all of our tours, go to earth Ancients dot com, forward slash Tours. You can see all the itinerary. This Turkey tour, we only take twenty people. We don't want to take more than that because we want to get

everybody in one bus. We want everybody to be comfortable. We want everybody to be able to see all the sites and all the details of every place we go to. So check it out earth Ancients dot com, forward slash too, and consider Earth Ancients for your upcoming tour. You know, and let's say I'm gonna mention is that our tours are literally half the typical price. We don't scamp. The food is excellent, the travel is excellent, the guides are excellent.

They're a five star tour across the board, but not for the typical price. And you'll be surprised. Do some comparisons compare to compare other organizations with Earth Ancients. So Earth Ancients dot com for Slah tour. All right, enough about that. Today's program is with best selling author Joshua Hammer. He wrote a book a couple of years ago called The Badass Librarians of Timbuck II, and that was about

a historical moment in Europe. Today's program has to do with the discovery in the eighteen fifties of these cuneiform these clay tablets that have these spikes in them, that they used stylists a piece of reed and they would right into these clay tablets. It's the discovery of what at that time was thought to be a lot of civilization of the Assyrians. Now we've had an seriologist, Irving Finkel on the program to describe just how sophisticated the

Assyrians were and the Babylonians the later culture. But the Assyrians come out of nowhere and in eighteen fifty in Iraq present day Iraq, they found a complete library of these cuneiforms. They also found huge walls of beautiful reliefs and other artifacts that just blew everybody, Wait, what's amazing and this is what the story is all about, is the fact that the entire European collective Germany, It's Italy, France, England and so forth, were on their seat, on the

edge of their seats with these discoveries. I mean, the papers were publishing them. There were columns, and oddly enough, this is just before cameras photography was in the use. They would send out illustrators to illustrate the artifacts that were found. They would send illustrators to show these cuneiforms, and it was a fabulous period of time, you know, even though the technology isn't anything close to what we

would consider cool. But Josh talks about this, this riddle that they I mean, they're trying to decipher this, and what they did is pure genius. So today's program is the Mesopotamian Riddle. An archaeologist, a soldier, a clergyman, and the race to decipher the world's oldest writing. And my guest today is Joshua Hammer. He's coming to us from Berlin, Germany. Hey, spring is just around the corner where there's going to be getting better and better as we continue on into

the year. And this means it's time to think about getting away on a vacation. Earth Ancients has the best tours you could ever imagine, and we are talking about Turkey in summer June twenty second through July second. This is our second annual tour to this amazing city. We all land and meet in Istanbul and for eleven days we tour some of the most amazing sights in all of Middle East. We're talking the underground city of darren Kuru, Cappadocia,

go Beckley Tepe and even Carahan Teppy. This is a place that is very much off limits to a lot of people except Earth Ancients. Our tours are literally half fifty percent less than what you typically would pay for an all inclusive Lemon Dade tour with our host Mohammed Imbraheim and a variety of archaeologists, geologists and scientists who are providing information on the latest discoveries in this part of the world. The Earth Ancient's second annual Turkey Tour

is not to be missed. For the full light itenerary and more information, go to Earth ancients dot com forward slash tours. Click on the banner and you'll see the full eight tenerary and all the details. Remember If you want a fantastic tour at half the normal fee, think about Earth Ancients Tours. We've been doing them for many, many years and they are a blast. Earthanses dot Com forward slash Tours. Come out and join us. We've got

a new one for you this week, my friends. Typically we are dealing with historical events in real time, we're gonna feature something quite new. It has historical ramifications, but it's got a twist. It's a I would call it a historical fiction, but we're gonna ask the author here in the second a little more about it. But it's got I mean, from what I've captured so far, it's

it's a good one. The author is Joshua Hammer. He is a New York Times best selling author of six books, including The Badass Librarians of Timbuck two, I Gotta Catch You, I Gotta Find That one, and his writing has appeared in New York Times Magazine, GQ, Atlantic, The New Yorker, and The National Geographic. And he's coming to us from Berlin. The book we're talking about today is called The Mesopotamian Riddle.

An archaeologist, a soldier, a clergyman and the race to decipher the world's oldest writing, and we're going to get into it right now. So Hey, Josh, great to see how you doing.

archaeological quest. There's been rumors about a lost civilization, great civilization of Assyria floating around for years, decades, centuries even, I mean no, actually going back to the ancient Greeks who went by the desert around Mosul and saw sort of ill defined mounds and suspected that there was this civilization of Nineveh, the Assyrian civilization might be buried up there, but nobody really had gotten around to it, you know.

Except for some peripheral digging around the edges of these mounds, nobody really tried to explore them. Oddly enough, it wasn't really until the eighteen forties that that archaeological quest began in earnest thanks to one one in two individuals, basically a Frenchman and an Englishman.

and exactly the same, well, one one catalized the other. Obviously, although there had been a few, you know, over the years of decades, there had been some qneiform inscriptions had surfaced in various places. You know, a diplomat might pull up some slab lying under uh, you know, in the dust in Babylon, and and and so things were there, you know, but they they really did not dominate thinking

about the ancients like the Egyptians did, you know. So what really wasn't until the eighteen forties that they began to discover the ruins of Assyria. This whole lost empire came back to life. And that's when I was really resurrected from the dead, and that's when the real effort

to figure out what these ancients were saying began. So basically was a question of following both of these quests and then kind of weaving the stories together structurally and also trying to understand get my brain around how these decipherers worked.

these cuneiform what are? What are? The countries were involved in this, and we know Germany had a big hand in this, but who else is.

you had English, British, Irish, French. It was a multi national effort working on a lot of different different scripts, h and languages, but all written aostentially in these with these weird wedge shaped characters that we now know, originated in Sumer like thirty four hundred BC, and then kind of proliferated around the Near East, you know, over the over the millennia and really kept going for thirty five hundred years in various forms.

and the the dispersal of the Ten Tribes. So that was one point, and then the Greeks, people like Herodotus. The ancient Greek historians wrote about the Assyrians, but from the perspective of people who lived hundreds of years later, so they didn't really have a contemporaneous knowledge and a lot of what they wrote about. I mean, Herodotus was, you know, the father of history, but he was also known as a great, a great, a great fabuloust, so so a lot of people didn't trust what he wrote about.

But that that's basically what you had. You had the Greeks, and you had the classical historians, and that was the sum of knowledge about these people. It wasn't very much, but yeah, it gave it gave a ground that, it gave some reference points.

Often these like thin layers spread over these mud So those survived, a lot of them survived. The buildings themselves were destroyed when they tried to recreate the lost Kingdom of Assyria, you know, or Nineveh, the great capital of Nineva back in England for like a World's Fair exhibition in the eighteen fifties. It was all like completely complete fantasy because they didn't really know what these things look like. They just used you know, they used motifs, they used

Doric you know, Greek columns. I mean, just like a weird mishmash of architectural ancient architectural designs that you know, really came out of layers imagination and the imagination of his architectural partner whose name mentioned in the book, but a case. But anyway, but what they did have with these so they had these these these alabaster bar reliefs that were pretty detailed and gave kind of an amazing view of walled cities that were conquered by the Assyrians

and battlefields and its incredible stuff. You know, really gave you feeling for I mean, just imagine like there was no not you know, really very little knowledge about these people. It's certainly no pictorial evidence, right, and then suddenly they're just digging up like voluminous images of what life was like, even you know, with really incredible detail, down to the way that these people and their enemies were dressed. I mean, really got to find the chariots, what the chariots looked like,

their horses, the actual sacking of the city. They had like a cinematic sense of this stuff. So it really opened up insight into a world it was only more you know, vaguely understood or known about. But the buildings themselves were gone, there was nothing left of those.

Everything was accumulated in a couple of rooms and the walls had collapsed, and so Layer just stumbled into this the remains of this of this corner of the palace, and just found like thousands of clay tablets, broken tablets, coupled. Some of them were intact, many of them were broken, but like an astonishing array of of of material, all written in the same cuneiform writing that was on the walls of the temples. But that one was that that was sort of much clear you know, written in stone

chiseled in there easier to read. This was a little bit trickier. Some of these things were incredibly minial. One of the things that the Assyrians liked to do was to create these cylinders like were maybe like the size of a bowling pin a bow, and they would and they would chisel inscribed with these incredibly fine instruments, these cuneiform symbols, like basically telling the same stories that were on the palace walls, but in miniature, I mean incredible miniature.

So and then they were and then they would bury them like twenty feet or ten feet underground. It's almost like a time capsule for future kings to discover. And that they would excavate these things, and then that was a tremendous challenge to read those ones, much more difficult than the inscriptions on the walls.

claim method. I'm not talking so, so the chronology is that they came up with this wet claim method where they would just just put the the wedge shaped edge of the stylist, press it onto the clay and then and that's how they would write. And then later on when they created these giant palaces in Mesopotamia, they took those same signs and they chiseled them into the walls, but the clay never really just appeared. That was always

a medium for for for for writing as well. So this is like began and this began, you know, a thirty four hundred b c. Or so, and evolved over the over the centuries.

Egypt there was about seventy or eighty. It was a couple maybe one hundred couple one hundred or two hundred years before Christ and Egypt was a Greek colony. So you had ancient Greek written in one level, and you had higher glyphs on another level, and you had something called demotic script, which was like a shorthand version of hieroglyphs.

And ancient Greek was a living language, I mean, it was a dead language, but the writing was understood, right, I mean, people studied ancient Greek in class in London, in English boarding schools all over the world. They were able to take that known language and kind of match it up against these unknown languages, try to find parallels. The word king. They would see the word, you know, the name of a particular king Ptolemy appeared like fourteen

times in the Greek. They looked at in the higher glyss, what other you know, what do we see anything here like a similar pattern if some similar characters being used fourteen you know, fourteen times, And they matched them up that way and were able to sort of slowly get the sounds out. Well. The same thing was done with cuniform. It was. It was a question of except in this case it's more complicated, much more complicated than the Rosetta stone. But still it was the idea of taking a known

language because they were written like three. The ancient scribes wrote three languages side by side, and they did the same kind of thing, match them up, get the sounds. The thing is, it was much more complicated because the Syrian Babyloni wasn't just a phonetic language it was it was a It had phonetic syllables, and it also had logograms, which were just symbols meaning you know, things, and it was all just sort of thrown together without any real

understanding rhyme or reason. Nobody quite knew, and so it took them a long time to figure all this. How do you know what is a phonetic character? How do you know what's a logogram? You know, how do you pronounce the logograms? There were just like a million questions that they had to kind of work their way through. And I can't profess to understand eight is the l it was done, but I have a little bit of an understanding of how they got started anyway.

feet long. It was buried sideways, but it was meant to stand, and it contained a series of very well defined pictures of what looked to be like a bunch of the Assyrian king being visited and paid tribute to by conquered vassals, all bearing gifts. So they had each each side had I think five of these really intricate barralings showing guys bringing you know, bacty in two humped camels, monkeys, elephants,

precious jewels, wood whatever, bundles of wood. But it just gave this incredible one of the most vivid pictures found to that point of life in the Assyrian court and each each panel had a canea form inscription next to it. So it was really invaluable for the for the deciphers because they now had, you know, at least a start here. You know, they had the pit, the image, and they had the qunea form and obviously there was a connection

between them. It was like a graphic novel from the eighth the ninth century BC and uh and it was because it was also like an incredible magnificent It was incredibly well preserved, so it was like the best preserved piece of of relic from the Assyrian Empire that had at that up to that point been discovered. So it

was really treasured. And when it came finally in forty you had this like long dramatic story that's in the book of how it was transported from Basra at the southern end of Iraq all the way around India and finally to London, and how it was it ran into a major hurricane, the ship toppled over for months, they

had no word about the fate of the obelisk. Finally, like in October, after it was left in February, in October the ship arrived it somehow managed to pull itself together and arrived at port and the Obelist turned out

to have been saved. So it was really sort of a national celebration because people had seen images of this thing draw a graphic artist had sent pictures of it back to London, So there was a lot of interest in this thing, and then when it was saved, of course there was a lot of rejoicing that it had been took a place. Still it's at the British.

of the Assyrians. Yeah, it's funny because I was at the British Museum a couple of years ago and I actually saw the Rosetta Stone itself, and I I can see why the Egyptians want it back, as well as other artifacts. It's like the British Museum has all this booty from the period of when they were the world's uh, I guess elite. You might say, how do we look at that today when we when we have these artifacts that are you know, not really the you know, belong to the Brits.

You know, contracts were signed, pasha's and the Ottoman Sultan turned over these artifacts legally at the time to many of you know, under under the under Ottoman law or under the decree of the of the Sultan, these things were handed over. How much duress was involved, it's all very murky, you know, but clearly there's a move now, a big push to bring and including the liar stuff that was taken from Iraq. The Iraqis want that stuff back.

So they have legitimate reasons. They've built museums. They they they they can house these artifacts and these relics in relatively uh secure and beautiful facilities. Now they were hiring find you know, architects to do the work. But you know, the British, the British Museum has been very resistant to this. Needless to say, there are some and there's a lot of sentiment on both sides. You know, a lot of people believe that the British Museum is British Museum has

a lot of defenders. They say, it's it's it's it's repository for the world it has, you know, it's it's it's visited by I don't know the number of millions of people that visited every year, but clearly you're not going to get that kind of audience. It's to see wing bulls at the museum, and you know, shouldn't wing bulls be brought back to most plus moscil in Iraq has had a history of incredible violence and FAOs and attacks by ISIS, and so how secure is a place

like that. There are arguments to be made for for for just going with the status quo.

point as to why these artifacts are there. They're protected, but still as I mean, I go to Egypt, every year on tour with my listeners, and they're very adamant about getting artifacts back from the Brits and the and the Germans and the Americans.

there are several kings. Once they were able to read the king's names, they could match up the names of these kings on the palace walls with the uh, with the passages in in in the in the profit in the books of the Prophets, and get a rough idea of the century. But they You're right, they they were able to get this down to uh, you know, to to the to to with an exactitude in terms of the genealogy of the kings and what years that they reigned.

I don't you got me stumped there. I don't know how they were.

a genealogy that way. So once you had that a sign, and then if you figured out specific date of one king. I don't know how they came up with an exactly an exact date to begin this whole process, but once you had a fixed date nailed down, then the rest of it would fall into place, right, So it couldn't have been easy, but you know, and at the beginning,

I think they were floundering. They didn't really even know whether the Assyrian temples and palaces they were digging up like predated the Persian Empire, the Okamenid Empire, or followed it. And the Persians ruled like Darius and Cyrus. They ruled in about the sixth in the sixth century BC, and they it turned out that they followed the Assyrians, you know, by but nobody knew that at the time, right, So they were they were at a loss in the early days.

But obviously they put it all together within you know, ten, ten twenty years, they were able to get a pretty good chronology.

as you know, as as Assyria entered. It's kind of the the Neo Assyrian Empire phase, which was from about the beginning of the ninth century BC until the destruction of Ninevah in six' TWELVE. Bc those like three hundred years were pretty well. Documented they they're able to date those pretty, exactly even to the point of knowing exactly like the month that nineva was destroyed by The babylonians and The, meads you, know and that's definitely fixed at

six TWELVE bc as far AS i can. Remember how they got that exact, Date i'm really not, sure but that's kind of become the accepted.

BLOCK i kept talking to these BECAUSE i had Some assyrian really like philologists and the seriologists THAT i would consult on a regular, basis AND i just kept asking, them you, know where are the, records where's the, diary where are the? Diaries? Where, dude where do these guys explain how they did? It and you're just left with fragments here and there that you have to you kind of have to piece it all together on the basis of a few. Fragments they just didn't really feel the

need to explain it to. People quite quite. Maddening that's.

actions or the lives of various kings. Incorrect so what you're saying is that this team that you feature in this book had it together pretty pretty. Closely but have you talked To Irving finkel at?

actual cylinder but. Lithograph it gave him like a couple of months to work on, it and then sent a sealed packet to The Royal asiatics, side and if they matched up more or, less it would be considered you could safely say that the, language that the writing and the language had been, cracked that it was. Understood and

they did effectively do. That they got it pretty. Close but there were lots of, gaps you, know there were because because there were logograms, pictograms they just didn't understand there were multiple ways of reading a single sign that were confounding to. People there were lots of. Ways in, fact the reason that they had that there was so much.

Skepticism one particular, scholar An irish, scholar looked at the signs for the name of the king Nebucud, nezzer The babylonian king Nebucud, nezzer which one of these Fellows hanks had translated as Nebukud, nezzer but at the same time the whole way of. Talking one of the find of one of the findings as they were delving into into quiform was that a lot of these characters had a multiplicity of. Meanings they could be read, five, six seven different.

Ways and this scholar pointed, out, well if you use that, PRINCIPLE i could look at this this these six characters that supposedly form the word Nebucud, nezzer there are actually three hundred and seventeen thousand other ways THAT i could write this. Name so your theories are. Crap you, know this is just a. Hoax you were just. Us you could come up with any name and make me and

try to make me believe. It so that was kind of the thinking going on that led to this conference in eighteen fifty seven where they just, said, well we need some way because those who supported the discipherment would say, that, well you, know you look at these things in. Context there are ways to narrow down exactly how these characters are being, used and experts can figure it. Out it is,

complicated but there are ways to figure it. Out and that's what this competition was all, about just sort of proving that we can get it pretty. Close and they did get it pretty, close you, know close. Enough it.

Was it was with The annals of A king from eleven HUNDRED, bc you, know very complex written in these, tiny tiny characters on that bowling pin sized, cylinder talking about you, know lion hunts and building consecrating temples and military campaigns In, syria what is An syria and giving, gifts, vassals giving, gifts lots of description in, here thousands and thousands Of canaan form, characters and you, know you could

have taken that in any number of. Directions so it was really a great, challenge, right which is why they picked. It and the four guys got together and they presented Fair although there were lots of, gaps the findings were close enough that they did, say, well we're coming to an understanding of. This BUT i do believe that the decipherment process went on for, LIKE i think it's still. Going, YEAH i think there's still doubts, about you, know certain.

Things it's not like a cut and dried issue at. All it's not like because hiering. GLYPHS i think it's fairly well done. Now But i'm pretty Sure i'm not in a, syriologist But i'm pretty sure that there's still some.

they would find tablets with writing on. Them so this was an incredible sign of how literate this particular society. WAS i, mean there were there were schools that taught writing to, scribes but not just the, elite elite government or religious. SCRIBES i mean that, writing that literacy trickled down well beyond just the elite of that. Society AND i would assume That, Assyria, assyria which borrowed the signs

from the from The sumerians but gave them different. Values BUT i would assume that that society was pretty much, this you, know at a similar level of, literacy and that, YES i mean they wrote about everything from well what

what what? Rawson sorry what? Well? Rawls and anla. Are discovered in these libraries were everything from, uh you, know a lot of medical, stuff a lot of a lot of routine bureaucratic, stuff medical treatises about how to cure various, illnesses even Psychological council for psychological, problems astronomical, observations, calendars uh scientific lots of, science lots of, science lots of annals of fighting of wars of, coorts written by written

by the, kings, uh. Horoscopes they were extremely they were both scientific. People they were also extremely uh. Superstitious you, know some of this stuff is some of this stuff is wildly this WHICH i didn't really know much, ABOUT i, mean anything about the what how how the whole idea of, exsicipacy you, KNOW i Think i'm pronouncing it, right which is reading the entrails of dead.

before really before. Photography photography had just been. Invented but they they must have had this amazing staff of artists and they just did these incredible litho lithograph illustrations on pretty much every other, page amazing detail of you, know the coronation Of queen beerw, whatever of the visit Of Queen victoria to The Crystal Palace World's fair, exhibit just with you, know, everything with hundreds of people, everyone you, know finally drawn war, scenes The battle of you, know

The Crimean. War this is WHERE i found the famous picture that's actually in the book of one of The, lamasus the winged, bulls or maybe it was a wing lion being brought up the stairs on a ramp at

The British. MUSEUM i mean that thing weighs. Tons, yeah, Yeah so it was like they had seventeen horses carrying this thing through the streets Of london from the docks of near The tower Of, london brought it to the, museum constructed a ramp that carried the thing up the stairs into the down AND i think it went down to the, basement Which layered was very unhappy about because The British museum was not they were they were just grabbing so much stuff around the world that and bringing

it back To london that The British museum wasn't able to keep up with the flow of good of, artifacts so they had to Stash layered stuff in a dimly lit basement, room which he really was unhappy about and complained quite bitterly. About but so this was a you, know a regular feature of The Illustrated London. News they were often reproducing pages and pages and reproductions of the

the relics That laired was. FINDING i think The Black obelist first appeared or is in The Black obelists may have first appeared in the in the illustrated end the. News they weren't the only ones doing, it BUT i think it was like a very popular hit paper with about a circulation of one hundred thousand at the, time which is pretty.

exactly what they had. DISCOVERED i think one of the QUESTIONS i was thinking about WHEN i was reading about their Lives rawlingson And hicks and later is did they publish anything of fund outstanding regarding this? Work in other, words If, LAIRED i, mean are they publishing actual? Books?

KNOW i, Mean rawlinson too was quite a good. Artist he wrote these stumbled across these diaries that he had written for his kids years, later bringing back his days as a fighter In afghan warrior In afghanistan and at The British embassy In. Baghdad and he wrote with these the kind of nink drawings that were really quite, good and a couple of THEM i reproduced in the. Book so, YEAH i Mean layard was ABSOLUTELY i mean he was a popular. Writer his stuff sold tens of thousands of.

Copies rawlinson did not, REALLY i, mean there is a biography Of, rolinson contemporary, biography but it's written by his. Brother so he never really did What lair did at. All there was there were short articles that he. Wrote there were very dense reports on the decipherment that he did for The Royal Asiatic. Society there were, letters but

nothing like Like. Laird and the same goes For. Hanks he didn't REALLY i mean he wrote a lot of, letters but he didn't really tell a. Story But Leo hanks didn't have the kind of, piicresque you, know adventurous dramatic life that the other two guys.

Over so people have been writing About persepolis for two thousand years describing, it and it WAS i, mean it began to attract regular visitors From europe IN i mean the Ancient greeks showed up, there described, it people like, Uh Theodora, siculus some of These greek historians them two, three and then and then you had another wave like beginning around the sixteenth century of of, travelers diplomats from the wet from From europe coming to See, Persepolis so

it never disappeared from view the meaning of the writing on the walls Of persepolis that was. Lost nobody knew what that. Was, uh that was the first writing that it was, deciphered and that's actually what led to the others being. Deciphered but it's it's it's not like it wasn't Like nineveh Or nimrod Or babylon in that which were basically just covered over by sand and these mounds formed around. Them and that's a very good. Question why is? That AND i don't have THE i don't have the

answer Why persepolis was never? Lost but never does it.

well that, guy you know that that's. GONE i don't even see any remains of that city now it's just a. Mound and then over the, centuries you keep having these references to this in this. Mound and Then layer gets there in eighteen forty and he's like, utterly you, know he's he's basically like a back the equivalent of a backpacker making his way Across, asia you, know and he, just you, know he shows up at the mounds and he just sees, this and he's kind of he's utterly.

Transfixed he's, like he's, like, well all the historians are telling us that this that there, was the greatest city of the ancient, world was right at this. Spot so there's this mound here and nobody's paying any attention to. IT i, see you, know every once in a while somebody would come up with a little fragment of. Cuniform but he was just sort of baffled and blown away and awed by the utter disappearance of any trace of a great. City so but he, assumed you, Know i'll,

bet he, SAID i will bet that there. Is if we can get the resources together and begin, digging we will find we will find. Something he was utterly. Convinced and it's funny that nobody else had the same it really that happened in eighteen, forty so nobody had the, initiative curiosity whatever to do it before he. Did but he, schemed and you, know he didn't have any money at the. Time he was like twenty three years, old but he was a great you, know he was a great talker

and a great. Operator and within five years he was back, there this time with some money from the turt from The british ambassador To Constantinople kubision of his own pocket and gave him enough to put together a diggy team and go to work and then the rest is.

snubbing him and not doing anything for. Him layard was feted and given various keys to the city and everything for his archaeological, discoveries And hanks was, ignored, basically even though a lot of people say that he was the guy who in this very intense rivalry between him And rawlinson for who who was could be considered the father

of decipherment in canea. Form hanks pretty much now is recognized as the true father of, decipherment but he received no recognition in his, lifetime with the exception of a couple of, peers you, know close, colleagues fellow, philologists but nothing from the, government nothing from nothing, official.

Fact he Hated. Rawlinson you, know he hated That rawlinson was getting all the attention and he hated being like after a, while just stuck in. This. YEAH i mean he's a religious. Guy he. WAS i think he appreciate. You he appreciated and got great satisfaction out, of you, know his sermons and his tending to his, flock although that was also, controversial but, anyway you got into hot water with doing, that but not always very popular among his.

Parishioners but, anyway but he also had. Aspirations he wanted to teach you at. University he kept asking People, layered you, know any one of his influential friends who were who Were, english to help get me a job At. Cambridge get it was like basically just straight. OVER i want a. JOB i want you To can you just like call your you, know get in touch with your friends on the trustees and get me a position they should have in a seriology position for. Me why can't you do?

That and never. Happened it never, happened and he ended up you, know he did. WELL i, mean the saddest thing About hanks is that, eventually thanks To lair's, intervention he got himself a one year deal to translate to work at The British museum to translate The Black obelisk and other great. Artifacts and this isn't really this was

like for him to pin at. Him you, know he had finally made, it and he trooped off To london and was given his position and went to work and then you, know translated voluminous amounts of, material put it all in, notebooks and then at the end of a year they fired him and snatched away his notebooks and

basically just kicked him out of the. Museum and the theory never proven is that he believed That rawlinson had sabotaged him Because, rawlinson you, KNOW i really got into in the book THE i, MEAN i really tried to bring to life as much AS i, could the rivalry and the sort of the way these two got three guys, interacted BECAUSE i found that to be one of the most fascinating elements of this, story the person, did the different personalities and the competition and the way it played.

Out And rawlinson probably sabotage takes because he was incredibly jealous and what you see it in the, letters like

what is this clown? Doing you, know this pathetic Little irish, churchman who does he think he is coming into My british museum Where rowlinson had connections and influence and, power you, know and getting this job transcribing, my you, know my artifacts because he was he had been In baghdad for years And laired would ship him down these, artifacts first To baghdad Where laired would Where rawlinson would inspect them and then send them down To bostra to be shipped

up to The British. Museum so he kind of, felt this is all my. STUFF i you, KNOW i shipped. IT i was a diplomat who arranged the transport of these delicate artifacts back To britain and now, hints you, know this puny irishman is in my. Place he hated it and so there's all sorts of evidence that he

puts some pressure on his buddies at The British. Museum and not only did they And hanks after a year sent him packing back To, ireland which he never left, again but they also stole his notebooks and sent them To rowlinson to give him like a little heads up on how to you, know handle some of the more difficult cuneiform. Acipherment kind of. Treacherous it was Really hanks

had quite a sad, yeah sad. Story but you, know, finally thanks to the revisionists looks being given by modern day, seriologists he's finally getting his, due you, know wait for.

Stories people who, love you, know a dramatic, adventure BECAUSE i Mean liott layered story which is interwoven with his, cipherers is a great. ADVENTURE i, mean off the sky goes so the wilds Of asia in the eighteen, thirties you, know and it was like a just a totally, dangerous crazy, place and it doesn't get much better in the course of his ten years. There so there's you, know an outdoor adventure element to this. Story you, know it's just like a good. YARN i, MEAN i really tried, to.

Didn't it didn't necessarily present itself immediately as a great, narrative but you, KNOW i THINK i found it in the course of researching. It SO i think although it's really for a lot of different people with a lot of different, interests it's very well, written very compelling and eye opening for that time of our. History just the brilliance of these men computers without artificial intelligence.

i mean supposedly by. Now BUT i see it's still not. UP i did like A i shot a five minute video back In november about the. Book was that going to be on? YouTube it'll go to, YouTube, yeah but it should be initially on probably simultaneously on The it should be up by. NOW i keep asking, them where where's that? Video there? Was it was definitely supposed to be up by sort of toward the end Of. February but you, know they've gotten pretty sophisticated, Though simon and.

SCHUSTERCER i did one for The Badass librarians that you can. See, yeah look see How i'd aged over the last eight. YEARS i did not do one for my last, One The Falcon. Thief but but they have uped it to like three different cameras and lots of. Editing so what are they calling?

Were these, guys these artists are extremely gifted and able to reproduce a, scene create a, scene an illustrated scene that was transferred into a paper or a document or even a. Book we just don't do that. Anymore we're so reliant on our, cameras and of course now with these handheld iPhones or digital cell phones that have this

camera built into. Them we take photographs for. EVERYTHING i, mean the DAY i WAS i, DELETED i must have deleted over two hundred photographs that were either duplicates OR i didn't think they were great or. Whatever it's very casual for. Us so, wow what a technological leap from scratching on metal, plates you, know lithograph and im pressing that into a piece of paper for an image to digital, images actual photographs of an an. Item it's just mind

blowing where we've come. From and this is the eighteen. Fifties so, ANYHOW i hope you enjoyed that you get a sense of what's, happening if you, remember and if you want more information on, cuneiforms look up the podcast Where i'm Interviewing Irving, finkel Doctor finkel from The British. Museum he is a real great. Storyteller he tells the

story of that the. Decipherment and, oh by the, Way josh mentioned that he had numerous conversations With finkel and his got his impression of just what happened during this. Period but you, know this is this is, amazing this is,

fascinating and here you. Go now WHAT i really if we had more, TIME i wanted to ask him what he feels the placement of artificial, intelligences BECAUSE i keep hearing greater evidence of some of these archaeologists and, linguists perhaps Even assyrians as a seriologist using and programming artificial intelligence to you, know not only decipher, things but begin

placing more emphasis on scripts and things like. That i'll tell You i'd love to see it with The maya because their language we have about ninety percent of, it but you, know we don't have as much as we have of The assyrians of The. Babylonians it's a great deal of. Fragmentation and remember we only have four books or what they call, codises and until we find more about, it we're completely guessing what the hell The maya were all.

About And i'm writing about this and it's like really a challenge For mayanis archaeologists to figure out what the hell they were, thinking what their society was, about what their daily activities Get we have, Fragments we have. Fragments and what's even more, incredible and this has to. Happen you, know they use light r you, know five six years ago and found sixty thousand new untouched ruins In aigutamola, biasphere two hundred square mile scan series of scans uncovered

these these, uh these. Ruins, now we just don't have the funds to go out and start digging and excavating those. Areas it's just it takes. Time and so, ANYHOW i, uh these ancient cultures are enigma And i'm wondering And i'm thinking that maybe artificial intelligence can really tighten the strings around understanding how these civilizations, functioned how they. Developed SO i hope you enjoyed. THAT I i enjoyed interacting With.

Josh he was he was a lot of. Fun, hey if you're Enjoying Earth Ancient's destiny Or Earth Ancients Special Edition The, archives please consider becoming a Subscriber for as little as five. Bucks you can support the work we do here on these podcast and when you, subscribe we have a ton of gifts for. You the first thing we have is a ton of, books digital, books and you,

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Slash Earth. Ancients all, right that's it for this. PROGRAM i want to think my guest Today Josh hammer and The Mesopotamian, riddle coming to us From, Berlin. Germany as always the team Of Gail, Tour Mark foster and everyone who makes this thing. Happen you guys, rock all, right take care of me well and we will talk to you next. Time the ague to.