John Michael Greer: The Ceremony of the Grail

We've all heard the story of the Templar Knights, the knights who protected Jerusalem and the Holy Grail, the Cup of Christ that is featured in Indiana, Jones and a number of other movies. Today we're speaking with a freemason, a high level freemason, who has written a book on the Grail, the Templar Knights, and the various ceremonies associated with the Grail. This is not

only a look at the knights themselves. This is a look at the secrecy, how they built temples and cathedrals, and the sacred energies that they use to anoint each of these dwellings. All this and more today on Earth Ancients or Saturday, November eleventh, twenty twenty three. This is Earth Ancients. I'm your host, Cliff Dunning. My god, it's November. What happened

to twenty twenty three? You guys feeling the same way? I feel like I woke up and half the year has been gone and it continues to trickle away to the end. We're coming to the holidays. Oh boy. It must be just the actions of of life, moving, working, communicating, hanging out with others. It adds up and our time goes along with it. So I hope you're doing well. I hope you're okay. Today we're

talking about the Templar Knights today. My guest is John Michael Greer, who is a prolific writer and a few years ago he wrote a book called The Ceremony of the Grail, Ancient Mysteries, Gnostic Heresies, and the Last Rituals of Freemasonry. This was a fun interview and it's part of actually a two

part interview that we're breaking up in weeks. There's another program that we're going to have them and the program has to do with temple technology, something that I'm fascinated in, and a book he wrote almost six years ago called The Secret of the Temple, and we'll talk a little bit about that in the program to day. But the Templar Knights are not just crusading knights. A lot of them were educated individuals, you might even call them scholars, priests

who could read Latin, who could read other languages. And our program today covers a sense of their secrecy you might want to call it, because they discovered when they were in Jerusalem, when they settled and became the defenders of Jerusalem during the Crusades that they found not only perhaps the Grail, and we still don't know if they actually found it or not. We'll talk about that

today. But what they did find was documents evidence of the previous epoch, because you know, Jerusalem sits on earlier temples, the Temple of Solomon, which we'll talk about today, and other smaller structures that housed unknown tech. And what when I say about when I talk about unknown tech, I'm talking about the discoveries made by John Burke, which is pyramids, landforms, buildings sitting on geomagnetic energy fields. And these are what modern scholars consider lay lines.

You don't hear a great deal about lay lines from the Orthodoxy because they don't they don't really have a way to explain it. And what's coming out and this is something that I have discovered in my own writing, is the fact that a lot of this previous epoch is hidden in the temples that we

do recognize. Now, now, what does that mean. That means that following the Great Destruction, the catastrophic event that wiped out eighty percent of humanity approximately nine five hundred BC, what was left were these temples and pyramids and other buildings that the next generation the survivors would reuse. And we know this today with the Maya, with the Egyptians, with the Chinese, with most what we consider older civilizations reusing refitting buildings. This is all fairly new stuff.

In fact, I am using terminology that's been around, including adaptive reuse of buildings or repurposing of buildings. And I'm firm in my understanding that this is the big mistake that Egyptologists and archaeologists are making today in not looking closer, in not using ground penetrary radar and excavating beyond a certain point. And

I have mentioned this many many times whenever we go to Egypt. We go every year, it is sad to hear that the local authorities, the Antiquities department, is hesitant in using ground pennetraining, radar, scanning technology, even satellite technology to pierce their buildings, pyramids, temples, whatever to learn more

about them. And we don't need to go into that now, because we've been talking about that all year and the latest discovery of the Kufu Pyramid being pierced in twenty two, new rooms being found, canals, channels, and architecture that supports some kind of mechanism. It all conclude when we have Chris

done on the program this coming January January twenty twenty four. But today's program introduces the templars as technologists number one, and also the keepers of sacred knowledge, knowledge that is not for everyone, knowledge that they may not be understood because remember, they are existing during the Dark Ages, the medieval period,

when mankind is at its lowest point. If we look at it from the Yugas, it's the lowest point of Duapara or Cali Yuga, when mankind is that it's worst, and there's also plagues and disease and just not a great time to be a human being. And they are the keepers of this knowledge, and they are the ones who are building cathedrals. And this is what's fascinating about the templars is that these scholars incorporated this temple technology into a number

of cathedrals that are known in Paris, France and other places. I think there's a couple in England that have this are built over technology or lay line. Again, we're going to talk about this in detail in a couple of weeks in the Secret of the Temple, and we'll know more about how this

technology works. But this is important to understand because if the previous epoch left evidence of their civilization in the temples, pyramids, and buildings, then we need to figure out where they begin and end and where the modifications or the adaptive reuse is indicated. And I think we can do this as our technology continues. Remember I've always said that some mit kids going to come around and

create a scanning device where we can scan buildings and have them decoded. The other thing that's fascinating is if you look at the history of the Maya and how they perceive reality. They believe everything is alive, and the mentors and the elders who I've spoken to over the years always said that the buildings have life, the buildings can speak to you. How they are able to imbue information in buildings like codes, like data is anyone's guests. But we are

learning this. A lot of granite has crystalline structure in it, and remember, crystal can hold data. This is what we're using today in our computers is crystal technology in the form of micro sensors and other components of a computer. So we're gonna learn shortly that the templars were eradicated and they morphed into freemasonry. And we're gonna hear from our guests today talking about freemasonry and some of the secrets that are unique to that discipline. I have a short audio

here from a video on just who the Templar Knights were. This is about four minutes give you an overview prelude to our interview today. So let's have a quick listen. The First Crusade was one of the most sensational victories of the medieval era. Christian knights from Western Europe secured control of the Holy Land, including the sacred City of Jerusalem, but despite this triumph, travel through

the Holy Land remained dangerous. After the Crusade, the bulk of the army returned to Europe full care of Shartra, a priest who decided to remain in the new Kingdom. Records that only three hundred knights and three hundred foot soldiers made up the standing forces of Jerusalem in the year eleven hundred. Christian pilgrims arriving by ship faced grave danger as they traveled to Jerusalem via roads infested with

robbers and Bedouin raiders. It was during these perilous early days, a Hue of Payenne, a French knight, arrived as a pilgrim to the Holy Land. Hugh felt called by Christ to act as a protector to travelers. Hugh joined with another pious knight, Godfrey of Saint Omer. Hugh and Godfrey gathered together a small band of knights and committed themselves to protecting pilgrims day in and day out. They braved the dangerous roads of Palestine, guarding travelers on their

way to pray at the Holy Sepulcher of Christ. Hugh's brotherhood attracted the attention of the King of Jerusalem, Baldwin the Second. In eleven twenty, King Baldwin formally endorsed Hugh's mission, granting him as a headquarters a portion of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. The Templars gained an even more prestigious patron when they received the endorsement of Saint Bernard of Clervaux. Go Forth confidently, then units wrote Bernard and repel the foes of the Cross of Christ with a stalwart

heart. Bernard's endorsement caused the fame of the Templars to spread their mission, inspired kings and nobles across Christendom, and donations poured in. Before long,

Templar houses were found all across Western Europe. Armored templars, clad in white tunics emblazoned with a red cross, became important members of the military establishments in Spain and in the Crusader States. Their mission in the Kingdom of Jerusalem expanded dramatically as they were granted strategic castles and territories to safeguard for The Templars had

developed an iron discipline that made them the finest army of their era. The Templars lived like monks, praying and working according to a strict routine, but in addition they included rigorous military training and organization. Over the course of the Crusades, the Templars were frequently on the front lines. They were with King Baldwin the Lepper in eleven seventy seven when he crushed Saladin at Mont Gassard. They were at the Horns of Haitien in eleven eighty seven, when Saladin defeated

a Crusader army. They were with Richard the Lionheart in eleven ninety one when he smashed Saladin's troops at Arsuf. They were at Las Novs Detlosa in twelve twelve, when the Kings of Spain annihilated the Almalwads of Morocco. As they expanded, the templars developed a sophisticated financial operation to help pilgrims. The financial competence of the templars prompted many kings and lords to request their services as money managers. One such king was Philip the Fourth of France, who in the

early fourteenth century borrowed liberally from the templars. Loathe to repay what he owed, the king concocted a series of false charges against the templars, accusing them of heresy, sexual impropriety, and witchcraft. Historians today are in wide agreement that Philip's charges were fraudulent. Philip's agents arrested the French templars, some of whom confessed to the charges while being brutally tortured. But among those who would

not confess was Jacques of Malai, the templar grand master. King Philip had Jacques and other templars earned at the stake from the flames. The last grand master called God's vengeance down upon the French king. Because of the power of the French monarchy, at the time, Philip was able to pressure Pope Clement the Fifth into dismantling the Templar order in thirteen twelve. Even in Philip's own kingdom, most people were horrified by what the king had done to the Templars.

Still widely regarded as heroes of the Crusades, many saw God's justice in Philip's agonizing death after a hunting accident in thirteen fourteen. Today, a plethora of sensationalist legends have developed around the Templars. Some believe they were magicians or heretics, while others believe they became freemasons. Although such ideas have been liberally employed by novelists and filmmakers, as well as conspiracy theorists, none of it

is supported by the historical record. The reality is that the Templars were an order of brother knights dedicated to Jesus Christ, the Church, and the cause of the Crusades. To learn more about the Templars, start with the following two books, The New Knighthood by Malcolm Barber and The Knights Templar, a New History by Helen Nicholson. I think it's interesting to note that the Templar Knights developed banking system that the different kings used. That one king didn't like

what they were doing and so he went after him. That's fascinating. We're going to learn more about this banking finance ability that these Templar Knights developed and how it's kind of been is being used today too, So something to consider. So today's program is the Ceremony of the Grail, and my guest is John Michael Greer. We have John Michael Greer back with us. We had

him about a year ago. He has recently released a new book called The Ceremony of the Grail, Ancient Mysteries, Gnostic Heresies and the Lost Rituals of Freeman masony. I gotta say I have read most of it and it is spellbinding. It is dealing with the human condition, mythology. There's so many themes in this book and it is a fun read. If you don't know who John Michael Greer is, he is a respected writer. He has written

over seventy books, countless papers on Freemasonry, many many other subjects. He is an initiate in the Druik, Hermitic and Masonic lineages, and he is all over the place. I'll tell you he's a great read. He's amazing, and this new book is just something we got to talk about. So hey, John, welcome to Destiny. Great to have you, well, thank you for having me on. It's always a pleasure. The background of the Grail seems to be fairly straightforward, but it's really not the Grail.

The Holy Grail is the cup that Christ had at the Last Supper. We see evidence of it. We see bits and pieces of it in various movies. Indiana Jones shows it. It's it's kind of a myth, isn't it. John, talk a little bit about the No no, no, no, no, no no. Let's start with that word myth. People use it in some very silly ways. I mean, people say myth to mean a story that's not true, okay, and that thus they myth all of

the power and all the potential within actual mythologies. The original Greek word muthloss simply means the narrative story, and it came to mean these stories, the important stories, the ones that tell crucial things about the human condition. It was Celestius, who was a Roman philosopher many years later, used to say

that to myths are things that never happened. But always are. And so when people talk about the Grails a myth, well, they're saying, on the one hand, there probably wasn't this cup, okay, and that's probably true. But at the same time, it's a myth. In the other sense, it's a story that has an enormous amount to tell about the human

condition. It's a story that has been written and rewritten many times with many different agendas and peeling back through the different layers of spin doctoring, and some of those who are pretty thick. The further back you go, the weirder it gets. So when you start with this idea, well, the Holy Grail, we all know it's the cup the Christ used the Last Supper.

We all saw Indiana Jones parading around with a blah blah blah. Okay, First of all, if Hollywood has dribbled all over it assumed that that what you're getting from Hollywood is nonsense. I call this the Harry Potter principle. If you see somebody in Harry Potter doing in a Harry Potter movie doing it,

it's not real magic. Okay. In the same way, if you see Indiana Jones doing something about it, it's not real archaeology, and it's not real mythology, it's not real anything else other than a real moneymaker, exactly exactly. Talk real quickly about the connection with the Knights Templar and the

Grail. I mean, I find it interesting. I find it in testing first of all, that here we have an order of warrior monks founded to help defend the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and all of a sudden, everywhere you look, they're associated with the Grail, the Grail hunt, the protection of the Grail. It's just it seems to be blown out of proportion. Is that it's complicated, Like almost everything having to do with the Grail, it's complicated. So we have we have the original Knights Templar, we have them

founded. You know, just what was it eleven eighteen in Jerusalem, nine knights by you know, bound bound together as a as a as a warrior and order of warrior monks. Think of them as the Midwestern medieval equivalent of the Shaolin Monks, just carrying more hardware. But that it was very much the same spirit. The idea that you could combine that sort of mystical religious vocation with you know, getting out there and clobbering people in a good cause.

And so the Knight's Templar were active for a while in Jerusalem as a very small organization, and then something happened, and nobody knows what, but all of a sudden, the head of the order is back in Europe, piece being given an audience with a poe piece being you know, for all kinds of all kinds of rich nobles are flocking to support him and throw money into the into the banks, into the coffers of the Knights Templar. Lots

of people are joining. It's suddenly a big deal. And you know, Bernard of Clairvaux, who is for the you know, the the great theological intellectual of the age, writing a book in praise of the new knighthood, basically a pr release for the Templars, and they're this big deal, and all, you know, over the next few years, in a very short time, they become this huge international presence. They have real estate all over Europe that they use to funnel money to the Holy Land to support the defense

of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. They have thousands of knights, they have tens of thousands of ordinary foot soldiers and other support staff. They are the strongest military force in the Western world, and they're basically most of what keeps the Kingdom of Jerusalem from being steamrollered by the Muslims as the crusades continue, and then of course Jerusalem falls, the Saracens take it back, the Muslims take gradually take back the Holy Land despite all the efforts of the Knights Templar.

And then we're in thirteen fourteen and all of a sudden, bang the King of France proclaims them to be a bunch of devil worshippers, and bang the Pope agrees with him, and they are all of these attempts to shut down the order in all but two kingdoms in Europe, Portugal and Scotland. Scotland because the entire the Intar nation of Scotland was excommunicated at that time technically under interdict and so could not the Pope's official official rules didn't run there at that

time, and Portugal, because Portugal wouldn't have any of it. They simply created a new order called the Knights of Christ. All the Templars in Portugal became Knights of Christ and they just kept on doing templar stuff there. Yeah, so everyone else the order is abolished. Some of its members, especially in France, were executed, burnt at the stake for heresies. In a lot of other places, they were simply allowed to join to join other monastic

orders. So they ended up getting sent to the Benedictines or the Carthusians or what have you. And everyone's going, wow, what was that all about?

And then over time you start getting this notion because of course, because the King of France was yelling about all this this satanic stuff, all this heresy, they worshiped this idol named Bathomet, And over time the stuff starts taking on a life of its own, and people start saying, you know, there's a connection between the Grail between you know, between between the Templars and these the legends of the Holy Grail, and there's a template connection between

these templars and all these other things, and it just sort of builds through the years. There are several groups that claim to be to be descended from groups of templars who went underground. There are some you know, there's this continuing templar presence, and the longer it goes and the more it develops, the more these these connections to the Grail legend and frankly to everything else,

insight get brought up. Partly, of course, that's the that's the rejected knowledge industry in today's world, where anything, if you want, any piece of any piece of ideology, any piece of his history that via that breaks with the conventional wisdom, is going to find an audience. I mean that the Flat Earth Society is doing very well these days. I understand just understandably.

People then led to so often by the by the the you know, the official authorities, by the conventionals, and they're willing to look at any alternative. But but so there's there's a lot of smoke. There's a lot of smoke generated. There's a lot of claims about the Knights Templar that probably

aren't true. But are you suggesting, John, that there's a treminous amount of embellishing the whole idea that they were were given orders to watch over the grail, to carry it with them as they migrated throughout Europe, don't know, hmm, Okay, There's been an enormous amount of embellishment. There's been an enormous amount of oral traditions taken as absolute truth. There's been a lot of fabrication some of the new the the Neo Templar orders organizations that claim to

be descended from the Templars. Have they They've been Oh, they played a little fast and loose with the with the known facts, and sometimes in a very good cause, you know, if nothing else, trying to sort of sort of cement their their role and their reputation as these the bears of the Templars. But there's also some there there if you actually go back and use the tools of the historian, and you'll find out there is some definite there

there. There are connections between the important leading noble families in France that supported the Templars and were heavily involved in the Crusades and supporting the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the first productions of the first public known, publicly known versions of the

Grail legend. The connections are there, and you know, you can see there are points of contact between the Grail and some of the Gnostic traditions that got going in that same part of France and in points further south during the same time the Grail legend got started, and there are points of contact between these Gnostic traditions and the Templars, and it just you know, you have

to. You have to. You have to. You know, if you fan away all that excess smoke, you're gonna find some fire under that. And so there is a connection. I'm quite convinced, certainly. I think the evidence supports that the existence of a connection. Did they have quote the grail unquote? Well, that depends partly on what you think the grail is. Yeah, this is exciting because you write that in the early period they thought it was a plate or a pan of some kind, and then it

evolves into a mug or a goblet. Has anyone ever even seen this item? Okay? You see this is this is this is where you need to think like somebody in the Middle Ages. Okay, Now nowadays we all love to think literal terms the grail. Okay, it's got to be a thing. It's got to be an object that Indiana Jones can pick up and you'll make off with or something. Okay. In the Middle Ages, they were used to thinking in terms of symbolism. They were used to the idea that

an image a thing might actually represent something different. It might represent a tradition, it might represent a teaching, an idea, a bloodline. Possibly in some cases or what have you. But they weren't as literal minded. They actually had a little sophistication in their in their capacity to think, which we've mostly lost nowadays. And so what is the Grail? That is the question the grail night has to ask. Okay, you're a grail Knight. You

get in your armor or mount your horse. You go galloping off into the waste land, and all kinds of weird adventures happen to you. Finally get to the grail castle. You pound on the gates, they open it, They bring you in. They you know, they treat you like an honored guest. They sit you down at the table for the feast, and through the room, in perfect silence, comes this procession, carrying a mysterious object and a spear that drifts from blood, and a couple of candles fixed just

to make things look impressive. And at that moment you have to turn to the fisher kings sitting next to you and say, what does this mean? What is the Grail? What is this? You know, what is this exact? And if you ask that the door then the door is open. Then you learn the sacred. If you don't ask that question, the procession goes by and they take it, you know, they give you a bed for that. You wake up the next morning, the castle is deserted.

There's just you and the horse, and it's empty, and there's no sun that anyone's ever been there on a hundred years? Is it? Are you kind of animated that that it's a secret society hiding it? And it's like if you have to be a member of the society, begin Well, that's you're kind of jumping to some conclusions here, but that's one of the things that it can be. The important thing is I think that in a very medieval sense, they're giving a broad hint here. They're saying, Okay,

these stories are this glorious procession. Okay, this marvelous series of events. That's the that's the weird object and the spear and the candlesticks marching past you. And if they march on pass, you go wow, how neat? Then you wake up the next morning and you're an empty castle. If you look at the story and say what does this mean, then maybe the door opens and you can go further m So it's it's very much like in Zen

Buddhism. There's the drision of the coon. They have these these specific riddles, these riddling questions, and the student will be will be given a coon and they'll be set to meditate on you know, what is the sound of one hand clapping or what have you? And they're they're often like that, they're very weird. And if you can't answer the question, if you stay in your current mental state, you have to rise to a higher level of

mental functioning, and then it's all perfectly clear in a certain sense. The Grail is one of the great coans of the West. It's one of the it's one of the riddles, it's one of the challenges that that call on us to rise to a higher level of mental functioning. We're used to to get out of the rut of materialist literalism and say, Okay, what do these things mean? What are they trying to teach us? What do they

communicate to us when we open ourselves to their message. It's fascinating because the books dealing with ceremony, the Ceremony of the Grail is the title, and it's almost like different cultures take up a sacred vow to praise the Grail and to indoctrinate those who think about it. And pray to it. It's almost like it's a religion. It's amazing what you find as a grail kind of momento. Once you set out on that quest, you're going to find a

lot of strange things. Yeah, well, the religious thing is actually one of the most fascinating things about it. And here one of the key things that I kind of fold through the entire course of this story is the career of Jesse Weston, who was one of the first women to make it in the previously male nominated field of full course, actually the way she actually digs up some of these bits and piece she was she was an absolutely first rate

scholar. Nobody talks about her now because she was too closely associated with ve occult, she was too closely associated with alternative spiritual traditions. And we can't have that, you know, we all have to be nice boneheaded materialists, and now don't we. But Weston and Western was a first rate scholar.

Western she was. She was fluent in Old French, old medieval French, she was fluent in medieval German. She knew the Arthurian legends in many languages absolutely like the back of her hand, and so she was equipped to actually

tackle the Grail legends, say what's going on here? And she picked up on a suggestion that a couple of other scholars had made her earlier, pointing that this whole business, you come to the castle, you have to you, you go through this process, you see the you know, the the procession go by, you ask the question, and that's the moment where you become an initiate. This is an initiation ritual. That was what she That

was what had been suggested. She picked up and said, Okay, if it's an initiation ritual, where does it come from, what does it connect to? What might its sources have been, how did it survive into the Middle Ages? What's going on here? And so much of her career went into really close analyzes of the oldest versions of the Grail legend to try to trace them back to a source. Where was there a ceremony? Was there this initiation ceremony? What was it and where did it come from? And

what was its history? And that especially is the centerpiece of her last book, From Ritual to Romance, which talks would lays out in quite a bit of detail, how the Grail ceremony, the original ceremony of the Grail got started, and what fed into it and how it survived, and in at a couple of places in the book she lets out lets the cat out of

the bag in a big way. She you know, just very briefly in passing mentions the astounding claim that the Grail ceremony was still being practiced practiced in her time and she knew people who were practicing it. Hmmm, so that it had actually survived into early twentieth century Britain. Does she actually give up the group that is practicing these Grail ceremonies? No, no, no, no, no, no no, she doesn't name them, you have. So what I had to do to try to track down who it was was

to look into everyone she had connections to. What were her what? You know, who did she know? Who did she know? And how did she know them? You know? What did what? What were her connections? How did she how did she link into the various groups that were doing

alternative spiritual practices in Britain during her time? And I had I actually had an additional advantage here because before her time, just actually not that long before she got started, there was another version of the same Grail ceremony that she mentioned that shows up in a major work in English literature, not usually recognized as such. But yes, we're talking about The Well at the World's End

by William Morris. Now, William Morris. You mentioned William Morris. Nowadays people think of him as a as a designer, as an architect, as a as a printer. I mean he was. He was an artistic powerhouse. It's it's actually easier to list the things he couldn't do well than to list the things that he could. He was the founder, or one of

the core founders of the arts and crafts movement in America. He played a huge role in awakening the idea of doing something other than bright, shiny, mechanical, you know, industrial products and let's get back to craftsmanship people. That was That was one of his big things. But at the end of a long and busy life, when his health was failing, he didn't have anything to do with his time. He invented modern fantasy fiction. And no

I'm not making that up. He literally he's the guy who invented the idea of writing stories of magic and adventures set in imaginary countries. Middle Earth would not have existed without William Morris. And and all the rest of it. You know, the Game of Thrones business and all that. If you know

the genre, you you can see William Morris's fingerprints all over it. So The Well at the World's End was one of the very first of these long it's it was the longest work of fantasy fiction until until Tolkien came along. And it's the story of this young man's quest for the wells mysterious Well at the World's End. And if you pay attention to it, if you happen to know what Jesse Weston wrote, you realize they're talking about the same ceremony.

They're talking about the same thing. Morris laid it out in terms of a fantasy adventure, Weston lighted out in terms of the Grail legends and a ritual. But it's the same structure in both. That was the key that really blew things open for me, because I knew who William Morris was connected to, and I knew who Jesse Weston was connected to, and I could see that I could find a connecting link by way of certain people connected to

Theosophical Society, especially GRS. Mead, who was a very significant figure in Theosophy. In gnostic studies and in the alternative spirituality seen generally in Britain in the early twentieth century. I'm fairly sure borring documentation, I can't prove it, but I'm fairly sure that the people who were doing this Grail ritual in Jesse Western's time was the circle of Theosophists senacultists surrounded grs Mead and they had this ceremony. They got it by way of by way of somebody connected to

William Morris who had who had a text to the ritual. He he had. He scoured old bookstores and things all over Europe, back when you can easily find medieval manuscripts just sitting there moldering away in bookshops. He he had access to all kinds of things. We don't know where he got it.

That's another thing that I had to leave open. But so he got that, he passed it on to some of theists, his contact in the Theosophical Society that got it to Mead. Mead was running it for a while, probably as the Inner Order, the sort of private higher level order of his Quest Society, which was a very popular, very very active organization for for occultists and alternative spirituality times at that time, would you say that the Yeah,

the mystery, the sacredness, the secrets of the grail is what's fueling these private, these hidden societies. And I mean, well, it's that depends on what you mean by that. Again, the grail, the grail is not a thing. There are you know, there are power, there are spiritual realities in existence, and we can symbolize them with the grail. We can talk about them using the symbolism of the grail. That's what they were doing in the Middle Ages. The grail was a symbol for certain teaching,

certain traditions, certain spiritual experiences. It's an emblem, it's an emblem of enlightenment and among other things. And it was also you know, this the the centerpiece, the symbolic centerpiece of this ritual. And so you had this being passed on in various forms in various groups down through the years, and as a way to pass on certain teachings, as a way to encourage peopleeople to seek certain states of heightened awareness. And that was the secret behind

the grail. That was the mystery of the grail, that the grail is, the grail is a potential that we all have. With's something we can all experience if we're willing to work at it, if we're willing to engage in that quest. So let me just stop you there for a second. John, So you're suggesting that there was a somewhat of an altered state of consciousness in the pursuit of this data and through ceremony, through meditative practice.

This is what these initiatives would would would proceed. Oh yeah, the thing is als We entered in alter states of consciousness all the time. Modern most modern people are really stupid when it comes to consciousness. We don't pay any attention to it. We don't notice that we drift in and out of various altered states all the time. Our consciousness is a variable. We all know those situations where we've just gone through the day and literally can't remember a thing

we did that we were in a lowered state of consciouness. We've all been in other situations where everything is bright and luminous and our intention is on it. That's another that's the higher state of consciousness. We've constantly moved through these different states. The grail and the and the spiritual disciplines and the other things connected to it are, among other things, ways to achieve certain higher states of the consciousness that are harder to get to than just the state of being

bright eyed and bushy tailed. And the act of questing, by definition puts you if you take it seriously, it puts you in unaltered state, a higher state of conscious that's because you're paying attention. If you're on the quest, you're looking for something. You're not just blundering through life. Your eyes are open, your ears are open, You're looking for traces of the things you're the thing you're questing for, so that that, in of itself that

wakes you up. But you can go much further than that. Things can get much more interesting. There are many states of contradists far beyond that, and that's another of the lessons of the Grail. Of course fascinating. Now, one of the themes that is carried throughout the book is something you call temple technology. And this is just fascinating to me simply because you recognize a understanding that these ancients had of natural occurring geomagnetic energy, which is known to

us today as telluric energy. Talk a little bit about this, okay, discovery, because it is mind blowing. I love it. Okay, that was something that actually here where you're going to jump back to an earlier book of mine, because many years ago I noticed that time I was doing research into legends involving the Temple of Supplement. I'm a Freemason, Okay, we

do stuff with the Temple of Solomon. It's one of our symbols. And so I was doing some research and noticing all of these claims that when the temple was intact, this is what they said, this is what the Tumblan says. When the temple was intact and the offerings were being made and everything, it caused fertility and aggri in the fields all over Palestine, all over that area. And when the temple was destroyed, as like a switch being

flipped off, barrenness, desolation. Then they rebuilt the temple. The second temple went up, and you know, fertility again, and then it was destroyed again by the Romans gone, and you know, the the Israelis have been struggling to get back to a fraction of its previous productiveness. Something. And I'm looking at going, Okay, I understand that this may just be

symbolic, this may be one of again one of these symbolic expressions. But you know, there are other traditions in other parts of the world that say, the temples do this, let's hypothesize there's actually something physical going on here, and that led me down the rabbit hole. Let me tell you, because in fact, there's a lot of this information. There are at least

two different kinds of temple technologies you have. And this is where it gets interesting because you can tell what you're looking at if you look at the structures involved. Okay, if you have a pyramid, a stair step pyramid, okay, and that doesn't matter. Is it a Mayan period pyramid, Is it a Babylonian pyramid? Yeah? Is it? Is it a Chinese earth

altar which is made in the form of a little stair step pyramid. If it's one of these, you take your grain there before before planting, and you you place it there and you make it do certain ceremonies, and you take it away and the crops grow better. And there's a fascinating book I'm going to for I I am. I'm going to blank out temporarily on the name of the on the name of the two authors, but the title is See Knowledge Stone of plenty John. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah,

I've written about him, and he's amazing. He actually did studies. Yeah, yeah, you see, he was. His book was one of my crucial guide guides there because he was he That book was one of the things where I picked that up of that. Okay, so there is definitely something physical going on here. But that's one technology. That's one particular technology using geomagnetic fields to do certain things with the seed, with the seed grain to

make it grow better. Okay. But then there's another technology, and this is not This is not the stair step technology. This is the enclosed space, usually rectangular in shape. If you know anything about the Temple of Solomon, you know it was basically a long rectangle with the Holy of Holies at one end, and then then you know this long space and then the front door with the two pillars in front of it. If you go to Egypt, you find temples along the same lines. You go to India, you

find temples along the same lines. To Japan, you've wind shinto shrines along the same lines, all along in this linear process, and it does different things. It seems to do something not to the state of corn, but to the ground to the soil around it. And my theory, which I develop in my book The Secret of the Temple, is that this was a folk technology making use of naturally occurring energies geomagnetism, very likely, very likely

something else. I've suspected that high frequency microwaves may be involved. Those have enormous effects on plant and insect life which are not well understood but have been looked into by some researchers. But you have, basically, you're making a resonating chamber out of stone or out of certain specific kinds of wood. You're making it according to specific geometries, the sacred geometries that we all hear about

so much these days. You do certain things in that involve filling the space with volatile plant compounds that's called incense in most traditions, Okay, and you get increase increased crop fertility in the area around it. That's the that's the temple technology that I was looking to. It's different from the one that John

Burke discovered. They're they're mutually, they're perfectly compatible. There are some areas where there were both seemed to be practiced in fact, but it's just that there are these two different techniques that have spread over much of the world,

and they seem to be extremely useful. They seem to work. Now, my goal in the in the original book The Secret of the Temple was simply to put together the information that I could find as much information as I could find about the Temple technology, how it might have worked, how it might be possible to build buildings to become resident chambers for these naturally occurring energies,

and to benefit plant growth around that. I now, of all times we need this, And so that was and that ended up spilling over into the Knights Templar and the Grail, because it became very clear to me that one of the things the Knights Templar found out about when they were in the in the Middle East, when they were they were based on the site of the Temple of Jerusalem, they seem to have found out about the details of the Temple technology, and they took it back with them to Europe. Because right

after that you have radical changes in church architecture. You have the templars themselves making enormous amounts of money from their agricultural holdings, more than you'd expect you have. Then, after the templars are broken up, and all of these former templars are going to monasteries all over the place. You have monasteries doing rebuildings, and all of a sudden they're prospering. Gosh, I wonder why.

So My thesis is that by way of that, as well as there was some import from Ireland, some ideas that were saved in Ireland were brought back across into Europe. From there, that the temple technology reached medieval Europe, that many medieval churches were built according to those traditions, and that that was responsible for the very large population you had in the Middle Ages. The collapse of which the collapse of a subsistence failure after the Reformation, was what

drove the great migrations to the Americas and to Australasia. They had to go someplace because there was no longer enough food for them once the temple technology broke down. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return quickly with my guest today, John Michael Greer. We'll be right back. My guest today is John Michael Greer, a thirty second degree freemason who's written a book on the Templar Knights called The

Ceremony of the Grail. Where do you suspect this technology came from? Is it? I mean, I am of the belief, and I don't read this in your work, John, but of the belief that there was an earlier epoch that actually was highly advanced that may have left evidence of this technology that was picked up after the Great Cataclysm of Earth. Where do you suggest

that this is originating from? It's it's a really good question. To some extent, saying that, well, it might have come from from an ancient high civilization simply pushes it back, well, where did they get it? What I I've actually the idea of ancient high civilizations is one that I am

I am going to be doing further explorations on. I have been doing a lot of study of that of late, not only looking at the most recent one, the one that had that seems to have collapsed right around the end of the last Ice Age, when sea levels rose three hundred feet in not that many years, giving rise to the legends of Atlantis and all the other ground continents out there. But the in occult tradition, it's said that we

are actually the fifth great you know, advanced civilization on this planet. There were four be four hours, and each of them were at long intervals, right, okay. And you know, so in the occult traditions, they you know, they give them this the hype, the Polarian, the Hyperborean, the Limoian, the Atlantean and in ours, and you know, but then there's there's a lot of nonsense again, a lot of embroidery, a lot of these smoke, the same kind of smoke that we've seen with the

Grail. But if you actually go back as far as you can to the sources, you find accurate information that nobody should have had in say the eighteen seventies, when people are talking about a drowned continent off southeast coast of Southeast Asia, when nobody knew about sea level change, yet it had no way of knowing about what's now called sundaland which the drowned subcontinent the size of India located exactly where the olda cults is say that Limoria was so, you know,

or the you know, the various places flooded when these when the Atlantic rose, that match the old accounts of Atlantis with remarkable closeness, so we have we have this stuff. Since we don't have enough information about glacier and preglacial civilizations, it's really kind of hard to say, Okay, did this come from there? We know very little about what technology may have existed then

at all. What I have been I've been focusing on the information I can get from from known archaeological sites, right and in so far as that tells us anything. There are at least two places that could have come from. One is ancient Egypt to very pre dynastic and very early dynastic Egypt, they seem to have had some sense of this. The other one is northwestern Europe, where the very early long barrows show signs of having an early version of

the same technology. You mean the long barrows that are like Stonehenge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, Okay, exactly the yeah, the long the long barrows which were used, among other things, for burial. But then the same is true of an English of an English country church. Okay, they they were religious sites, but they also had certain aspects of their construction that make it look as though they might have been a sort of first

an early draft of the temple technology. Now it is a matter of a cult tradition that both the northwestern Europe, the Celtic lands along the along the Northwestern Fringe, and Egypt received something from you know, we might as well use the Old World Atlantis. So your claim that it might have come from

the you know, the late Glacial civilizations is certainly possible. But you know, until somebody digs up, until we get enough underwater archaeology to find some ruins and actually get someone to pay attention to them, I can't tell that I don't have I don't It's pure speculation, so what I do know.

What I do know is we've got these We've got the long Barrows in Britain and France and Ireland and a few other parts of northwestern Europe, and we are also western Spain and Portugal. And then we also have the the early Egyptian temples along the Nile Valley, and were both of those influenced from some older source. That's possible, but I haven't seen the information yet. From there, it spreads in various directions across Eurasia. Some cultures pick it up,

some don't. China already had the Welf code, Babylonia had its own its own zigatt technology. I had, you know, John Burk's technology. China had the zigarette technology, had the John Burke the John Burke technology also, but India picked up on the temple technology. So you just you know, different places grabbed onto different glommed onto different things. Let me have you for a minute, what is what is the difference between Brook's technology and the

other technology in specifics? Now, I mean we talk about telluric fields. Are they both dealing with tolaric fields or that? Probably yes, but they're using them in different ways. Technology. You're basically getting a pear, a cigarette, a a Meso American pyramid and worth altar. You're getting a raised stair stepped space. You put your seed corn on top of it. It gets zotted with the magnetic fields. It undergoes certain kinds of stress, which

which makes it grow like gangbusters. You then take it off and plant it. Okay, that's Burk's technology. He's done marvelous work explicating how it's done, and you know, kudos to the man. Then the temple technology that I'm exploring does not use the sort of pyramid structure. It uses an enclosed space. It uses a temple and a temple built to certain geometries and oriented in certain ways and placed in certain locations. There are some special rules for

how you get it. And it seems to work not as a place to put seed corn bet as a resonating chamber from which something some influence, quite possibly microwave based radiates outward over appear over a distance of some miles to affect vegetation growth over that space. And so it's very likely to be geomagnetic in its nature. But there may be were going on there. We simply don't know. And until adequate experiments are done, until adequate testing is done,

until we can find out more about the tradition. Generally, it's going to be hypothetical as to just how it works. It's amazing you. Oh, it's it's it's fascinating stuff. Yeah, I got to get that book, The Secrets of the Temple. It sounds great. Uh and go does everyone else? That's another that's another interview. You you suggest that the templars were perhaps alchemists and maybe they were able to capture this energy and turn uh, rock into gold or whatever. Is that a sound alchemy? Oh? There

there were? You want to open a can of worms that's a fifty five gallon drum of worms. So alchemy was an actual I mean, I've ready, isn't it. There they are alchemists working now alchemy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, there you go. Remember what I said about symbolism. Okay. The alchemists wrote over and over and over again, our gold is not the common gold. Okay, the

templars wrote the alchemists, no, later, later alchemists. Right, we don't any Anything the Templars had that was that was really secret, was oral tradition. They didn't write it down, so we have only we have only rumors. We do know with reference to the temple technology that one of the things that Baffo met there, that this idol bafament was supposed to do was

make the plants grow. But but again it's just a rumor. It was a later alchemists who are constantly going, our gold is not the common gold. What we are talking about is something different, and exactly what it was they tend to be exceedingly evasive about. And that's that's the thing you had

to learn in person from an alchemist. That's the thing you had to apprentice yourself to an alchemist and then you would you would find out the thing they would they would reveal to is the nature of the prima materia, the starting

point, what you're actually working with. And to add to the complexity, there's a good reason to think that there's more than one possible premamatia that there are, that what we call alchemy is actually a whole family of different inner sciences, some of which deal, as young thought with psychology, some of which deal with spirituality, some which deal with various other kind aspects of the world of human experience. Were the templars involved in it, That's quite possible.

One of the one of the traditions that I inherited from my teacher, John Gilbert, claims to be a system of basically psychological alchemy, psychological and emotional alchemy. The claims that is sent from the Night's temple. I have no idea if it's true or not, but that's the traditional claim. What's

emotional alchemy? Emotional alchemy? Okay, most it's very simple. Most of us are burdened with an enormous amount of old, unresolved feelings, especially from our childhood's Okay, this is the stuff that psychologists us to pay the rent. Okay, we all have these emotional burdens. There are ways to unpack the emotions, to free them up, to clear them out, some relatively simple exercises that will allow you to do that and to turn the lead of

old misery into the gold of present and future happiness. Okay, that's emotional alchemy. The Order of Spiritual Alchemy is the name of the organization, and it is it is well, it's back in existence. It was. It was dormant for a while, but I relaunched it and handed it off to a set of people who working with it, and most of in the opening, the introductory level is chiefingly free for the downloading. But yeah, do

you see. But you can do alchemy on anything. M hm. You can do Ultimately, the ultimate secret of the alchemist seems to be that you can take anything in human experience and say, Okay, how can I prevent this? How can I take this in its current form and put it through an alchemical process and transform its leaden aspects into its golden aspects. You can do that with art. You can do that with human mind. You can do that with with groups and societies. You can do it with entire civilizations.

You can do it with the human spirit. All of those are different kinds of alchemy. Can you do it with metal? Can you do it with metal? Nobody seems to agree on that point. I have not seen it done. I'm just going to ask you if you've seen examples of lead turned gold metallity. No, I've never seen. I've never seen a successful example of metallic alchemy. I've seen some amazing results from remote in alchemy. I've seen some impressive results from spiritual alchemy spajeris, which is the art of

making heat and making herbal medicines alchemically. I've seen some amazing things come out of that. But I have never actually seen somebody turn turn a lump of lead into gold. Hm? Uh is your belief that the h the Templars uh? You know, we're using this not only to fill their coffers with with the would you believe gold? Is that? What do you think their wealth was coming from? Or was it the agricultural uh uh en handsome okay

that they could sell? There were there were several things that made the Templars very rich. On the one hand, they had they seemed to have had the temple technology. They built little chapels and churches in each of their landholdings. In Gosh, they had bumper crops. That was, of course, a major source of wealth at a time when farm produce was the foundation of the economy. They also invented modern banking. Every time you write a check,

you're doing something the Templars invented. And so they figured out how to do things. You know, they most of what modern banks do the Templars invent. They needed to get money. I mean, okay, you have the money you sold a whole munch of grain in oh, let's say Nottingham in England. Okay, that money has to get to your castle's in the Holy Land, right. How are you going to do that? If you loaded on a ship, every pirate in the in Mediterranean is going to make

a bee line for you. So they literally had to invent the idea of deposit of you know, banking deposits and check transfers and things like that to

get the well safely from place to place. So they were guaranteurs of wealth and use paper may as yeah, exactly, and as soon as everyone as soon as other people figure out, wow, this works, they got in touch with the Templars and everyone from King's two commoners would would you know, say, okay, I need to get some money at point A, I'm going to donate this gold to you, and I need to check, you know, cut over over in you know, in Birmingham or what have you.

And so since the templars took took him my fee, you know, we're processing fees go a long way back. The templars took a little fee for that. They made out like bandits. So that was another way they turned lead into gold. They we don't know what all they were involved in, but those two certainly turned out a lot of cash. You know.

It's sad that they were persecuted to the end, you know. And you have to wonder if the Catholic Church just got tired of their wealth building and their notoriety and were probably just felt threatened, right well, certainly, certainly the king of France did. Philip the fourth, he wanted their money. He wanted it so bad. He was he was he was not good at saving money. He wanted to spend more money than he had. And so all that gold sitting in the templar in the verse time strong Rooms was had

a magnetic attraction on him. But the problem, the other problem was that the Church had been having, of course, major problems down through the years with people who didn't want to believe whatever Rome told them to believe. We use the term heresy for that. And it became increasingly clear that when the templars were in the Holy Land, they picked up some old Gnostic beliefs,

so they were not good Catholics anymore. So of course that had Rome out to cut their throats because we you know, the you know, for for good or ill, the Catholics, you know then that that's don't generally believe that you have to believe what the Pope tells you to believe, or else you fry in hell for all eternity. And well that's you know, it's the people have believed sillilar things. People believe politicians, for Heaven's sakes.

But but so, you know, so the so the Catholic Church was freaking out about about he you know, heresy within these supposed unders of the faith, and the French King wanted the money and wanted it bad. And between those two, of course, when you know, as the song says, when you know, when when church and state sit down together, it's a good question, which one needs longer spoon. Yeah, they got wiped out. Oh yeah, Well the thing is a lot in France especially, a

lot of them did get burned at the steak. In most other parts of Europe they didn't. They went, they were the templars were shut down and their properties were seized, and a lot of kings went. I got the gold. But the individual templars were allowed to join other monasteries and took some things with them, took some ideas and teachings with them. And that's where we get again, the various monasteries suddenly showing up with the temple tradition,

especially in England. Glastonbury Glastonbury Abbey was a major center of this stuff, also a major center of the Arthurian legends. Bringing us right back around to or we started right You show strange parallels with other countries. You mentioned Japan, and it's quite interesting how these the parallels focus. You mentioned some of the megalithic periods of the Kufon period, and so for talk a little bit

about that. That's fascinating. Okay. One of the oddest things in that that I know of in the study of folklore is the parallels between Britain and Japan. Okay, both of them have various, you know, similar traditions around burial mountains. Both of them have these ancient standing stones. If you get into the legends, you get deep into folklore. In legends, you find these amazing similarities. They look actually look like a hybrid between the round

barrel and the long barrow. But the thing that's really fascinating is that the Kofoan period in Japanese history was much later than the period than the corresponding period

in the British Isles. The round barrows were basically a done deal by around the year one thousand, actually before the year ten thousand, one thousand, come on, don't drop, don't drop in a zero there one thousand BC, Whereas in Japan the Kofun period, God didn't get going until well after the beginning of the Common Era, So like like you know, five six hundred a d. And yet you have these these profound similarities. Nobody knows why you have. I mean that if you really get into Japanese legend,

which which takes them doing. Unless you speak the language, of course I don't, but I grew up with a certain amount of it. Having having Japanese step family. Just there's a lot of similar echoes there are there. You know, you have merled In in the one you have and no Guilgah in the other. You have various there there are. There's a Robin Hood figure in Japan, and so on and so forth. Wherever you go, you find the same patterns of legends to a much greater extent than you find

anywhere in between. And so one of the things that has been suggested, there's a tempsy for the fringes of any geographical region to hold on to really ancient things when the core has gone on to new things, and for this

gonna be fringes in almost any sense. In America, for example, all through the twentieth century, people used to go to the Appalachians and they'd collect songs, and they'd find songs that had been brought there in the Elizabethan period and still being sung when they've been forgotten in England and forgotten in the rest of the English speaking world. In the same way, Japan and Britain are kind of at the far ends of the ancient world, and so it's possible

that some exceedingly ancient things were preserved in both places fascinating. The books called The Ceremony of the Great Ancient Mysteries, Gnostic Heresies, and the Lost Rituals of Freemancy Freemasonry. My guess has been John Michael griered, what would you say? I mean, we have there's so many narratives in this book. What what what's the takeaway you'd like to have the reader have in this book?

Mostly I'd like them to get pat to the takeaways, to get past the sort of canned Hollywood Indiana drones version of the Holy Grail and realize that there's there are, there are many things behind that symbol. It goes far back, it reaches into strange places. It's something worth looking into. That's a quest you can still follow it today. That's the takeaway. I think.

I think that's great. Hey. Uh one last question. You have a kind of a theme also of precision of the equinoxes, and one of the things I wanted to ask you is that it's funny how you write about this. You say that we're always hoping for the better period. You know, if you look at Yugas, there's cyclic time, and it gets there's the golden period and then there's the depressed, sad, intellectually poor period. Uh well, we're kind of looking at the next good period. But we

still got some problems, don't we. M hmm. If you follow the if you follow the actual cycle of the equinox, if you pay attention to astrology, the age of Aquarius is not going to be utopia. And in the old traditions, Aquarius is ruled by Saturn, and Saturn is tough, So we have two whole processional periods to go through, So three hundred and twenty years of under Saturn's rule to go through before we start picking our way back up to the to the Golden Age. Which is fine. You know,

everyone needs everyone needs to learn their lumps now and again. But the problem is that somebody could get obsessed with the idea that the Golden Age is going to happen next Tuesday exactly, and then they got all disappointed when it doesn't. We those of us who are watching all remember the absurdities around twenty twelve. Oh boy, yeah, the Mayan calendar you're right, yeah, yeah, the whole Mayan calendar of fan dango and the number of people who

ended up with egg all over their faces when nothing much happened. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, I think the Maya themselves said, hey, it's just the end of a calendar, another one starting up. What do you guys doing? Exactly exactly. The Mayans were clear about it. It's just a lot of people nowadays are not as smart as ancient minds. Exactly. Fascinating, John, Always a pleasure to speaking with you. I'm going to have to have you back real soon to talk about this other book.

And I can't believe it was written in twenty sixteen, so it's been a few years. It's been out there for a little while. Yeah, Yeah, very cool that you're studying and you're and you're looking into the previous epoch, because I think there's a lot there. One final question. I travel on tour every year to Egypt and one of the places we go to is the Hathor Temple at Dendera, and there's a tremendous amount of confusion in terms

of its date. There's a growing consensus that it's much much older than what traditionalists believe, and I think they say it's about three to four thousand years old. It's itself quite a while it is that is old, but there's a growing consensus, and this is among engineers and scientists, not egyptologists, that a lot of these temples, pyramids, even the sculptural statues that are aligned different places, are from an earlier epoch. We're just reused by,

say SETI the second me Ramsey's a second. What do you say to that something like that. I don't know, Well, I don't I don't know enough to have to have an educated opinion on the subject. I have read about some of the really interesting discussions of water erosion of the sphinx, yeah, which makes it very clear that these sphinks in at least some form existed a long time ago. But beyond that, I haven't had a chance to look at the evidence. And I but I think, I think, I

think we should have an open mind. The tendency to try to flatten out history, to to create the illusion that it's all about us and everyone in the past was just a bunch of grunting, you know, cave men until we came along. Basically, it's stupid. It's just stupid. Human beings in older periods of time were just as smart as we were. They had different ways of understanding the world. But that doesn't mean their ways were wrong

just because they're different from ours. Look at the that we're making of our society in our time, and maybe you start to wonder, maybe we're not as smart as we think we are. And so you know, the thought that maybe some of these Egyptian temples are in fact quite ancient. Maybe there may be the Egyptian civilization goes back longer than any than the official narratives are

willing to accept. I think it's a question that should be looked into, and it should be looked into by people with open minds, not by people who are trying to push one or another agenda. Yeah. I have an issue with Egyptology because they have a hard stop at a certain date and then they just can't go any further because history says you're a hunters and gathers after this time. Archaeologists, the archaeologists anthropologists have this bizarre knee jerk reaction to

that. In the archaeology of the Americas, for example, there was this obsession with the Clovis point okay, and the insistence there couldn't have been anybody before the people who made Clovis points. In fact, there were people here for most of one hundred thousand years before the Clubs point was embedded, and it's very clear. But for the longest time you could not say that in the official journals, no matter how good the evidence was, because by god,

it's nothing before Clubs. But that's I think what happens to the people panic. People get a sense of the true vastness of history of human existence on this planet, and it terrifies them because it means that we're not Destiny's special darlings. We're not you know, the be all and and all of

creation. We're just one more civilization. We're nothing special. And for people who've been raised on the thought that we are Destinies darlings, we are the conquerors of nature, the you know, the overlords of the cosmos, that's that's terrifying to realize that we're just another civilization, that we will rise and fall like you know, as Roman Egypt and Atlantis, and and you know,

that's just the way things are. You can you can reduce people to a state of gibbering terror by having them grasped that, because it takes away

this pretense of being much more important than we actually are. That's an interesting thought Uh, you have to wonder why, perhaps this is why our government here in the United States is for frevently against letting us know about UAPs, because because if they did know, you know, if they did give out the details, they they knew that perhaps even the civilization these places, these

ships are coming from, it would freak people out. So well. Did you notice though, that when they started doing a limited hangout on the subject, so many people said, Oh, the government's saying it, thus they must be wrong. Oh, interesting, Oh it's oh, it's been it's been funny to watch this is that. That's I should probably have one of my other publishers drop you my book on that subject too, because and it's that that's been a topic of interest to me since I was like ten.

We had a brief talk about last time, John, But yes we did. Did you do Have you written a book on the u A P. Waiver? Is it more just the general feeling of I've got I've got a book, I've got a general history of well I use the older term, of course, use the UFO phenomena titled UFO Chronicles. And I am in the process of arranging with the publisher to do another book on that subject cool, So yeah, so yeah, it'll be fun. John is always a

great pleasure. Give us your contacts or our listeners can read more about you. You can find they can find my blog at Ecosofia dot net e c O so p h I A dot net. My dream with journal is Ecosphia dot dream dot org. And if you go to bookshop dot org that's my favorite online book venue. You can find my books there quite readily, or you know whatever online or better still full service brick and mortar books store you happen to like they can't get all my stuff. Fantastic, John Michael Greer

always a pleasure and I look forward to speaking with you real soon. It will be fun, Okay, thanks John. As fun to read as Greer is, he is definitely a scholar, and he has found a what I call a paper trail on what he calls temple technology. And this is the inner workings of these temples. And you know, I'm going to have him back for this other book that I'm reading right now called The Secret of the Temple. And this is where we get an understanding of using tilleric fields tilleric

energy. This taps in with the Mayan book by Carlos Berreros where he describes how his ancestors designed pair of beds sit on top of telleric fields and to intensify the energy, to draw it up and distribute it. Now we don't know how it's distributed. We don't know if it's like the Wardencliffe Tower that I always talk about, and remember that's Tesla's tower where he sprays the atmosphere with molecules energy molecules and you can have free energy in the atmosphere. Now,

I don't know how that works. I'm not a scientist, and no one knows how Tesla was planning on getting the Wardencliffe Tower to work. Freers onto something here in this book The Secret of the Temple, and we'll have him on in a couple more weeks. It kind of close out the year this book. You got to get it because it is really a technology that is earth based. It doesn't have fossil fuels, it doesn't need nuclear power.

It is where are ancestors or the previous epoch that's remember that previous epoch aligns with that previous North Pole that's between one hundred and thirty and seventy three thousand years ago, that's the most recent epoch, and they were using earth based energy to generate power to fuel their machines and their cities. And of

course, where the hell is all this stuff? Well, if it is being redistributed, if it's being repurposed and reused, we're not going to know about it because we're going to mistakenly think that these temples, pyramids, buildings, artifacts are from the dynastic Egyptians, the Chinese, the Maya. Well, this is the where we have to look now. Getting academics, getting archaeologists, Egyptologists to look beyond their line in the sand, which is a

certain time period, is extremely difficult. And this is the problem with PhDs, over educated individuals who are so locked in to their education that they can't see beyond it. And this is not all PhDs, but you know I have written and before he passed away, the imminent mayanist, Michael Cole. You know, it wasn't until he retired that he let things start to rip. Like comparing the Mayan Pyramid to the Indonesia Khmer Pyramid. He says there

could be something going on there, And I asked him. I didn't ask him. I read about this. Does this mean that diffusion, the exchange of cultural philosophies and technology existed. Well, no, most academics do not believe in diffusion. They can't get over themselves to believe that we Native people, Indigenous people cross the Atlantic, across the Pacific, across the Indian Ocean to get to another site God. And we've heard it on this program.

It's recorded in local lore, which sometimes goes to mythology, but that doesn't matter anymore. Oral traditions make sense. We're going to have all that. Steve's back on the program to discuss the oral traditions of indigenous people in North America. But that goes from other places too. So anyhow, I'm going off on a tangent here. There's a lot to like about this temple technology

using earth based energy. And I have a feeling, and this is between you and me, that there are certain organizations and one of them, most notably is NASA knows about the Ancients. There's an interesting story I'm going to say. I mention it real quickly. My friend and mentor who wants men mentioned to me what I called him was that NASA had basically cordoned off the El Castillo pyramid, which is the main pyramid at Chichinitza, and was conducting

a number of very specific kinds of tests. And what has the rumor was is that they were using frequency measuring tools and this is like fifteen years ago to determine if there was energy coming off the pyramid. And I think they got something, but you know what, we'll never know. We'll never know. It's kind of like one of those disclosure things. Do we know about

the ancients or do we want to reveal it. If we reveal it, what happens if they reveal that the Maya had unique abilities to generate energy from pyramids, well we would have the archaeologist would have to rewrite history. This is the big scenario. Who gives it? Damn? So what do if you have to rewrite it? Give us the evidence. Quit saying that after a certain time period there are only hunters and gatherers. We're walking around dragging

our our hands on the ground and we're wearing animal furs to survive. It's sure as hell not looking like that's the scenario. So, by the way, Michael Cremo kind of closes out our year in December to talk about cycles of mankind and this is gonna be fun, so don't forget that. I'll be mentioning we got some other surprises for the end of the year. We always have the best of the best at the end of the year, so

look forward to that. So anyhow, again, John Michael Greer will be my guest in a couple of weeks to talk about the secret of the Temple, So look forward to that. That is I mean, I'm reading it right now. It's a mind flower. It's really good. It's really good. So fun to have him on the program. Hey, the holidays are

coming up, and that means gift giving. What does that mean? Okay, you gotta get gifts for the kids, your loved ones, your friends, your family, your neighbors, whoever, in some cases deserves a gift. But if you're like me, you know I love giving gifts. I love, you know, making people smile in the holidays, Christmas time, Honikah, whatever. But it's nice to get a gift yourself too, And why don't you give yourself a fabulous gift. Join me April twenty sixth through

May ninth for the Grand Egyptian Tour twenty twenty four. It is a fabulous tour, and I gotta say this, it is half the price everyone else is charging. I was shocked that they were charging ten twelve thousand for the same twelve day tour. It's ridiculous. Isn't that to me that much? It's kind of like gouging anyhow, This tour is fabulous, it is ground breaking, it is great fun, a lot of like many people are on the tour. And guess who's leading it. Our friend Mohammed Imbrium will join

us for the full tour again. We all meet in Cairo for the full itinerary. Go to earth Ancients dot com forward slash tours and check it out. I'm gonna be interviewing some people that have been on our last tour, just so you can hear what people are saying about this amazing close up in your face tour, the Grand Egyptian Tour. It's gonna be number six coming up in twenty twenty four again. For more information, go to earth Ancients

dot com full slash Tours and check it out. You'll love it. Alright, that's it for this program, and when I think my guest today, John Michael Greer, in his new book The Ceremony of the Grail as always the team of Ruth, Thomas, Mark Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys rock all right, Take care of be well, and we will talk to you next time.