I think this is the beginning of the holiday season. And if you're enjoying turkey this weekend like I am, it's Thanksgiving weekend. I guess you could say it. And I would like to wish you all happy Thanksgiving and time to get ready for the holidays and gatherings and socializing and consuming lots of calories lots of protein. You know, it's just the way it is. I've tried for years to stay away from sugar and cookies and pastries and candies.
It's impossible. You don't want to be rude to people. You go to someone's house for a holiday and you're like, no, I won't have a slice of that wonderful cake, that that black forest cake with my turkey, or my prime rib. No I won't have that eggnog and brandy. I already told you how I feel about eggnog and brandy. Oh my god, that stuff is amazing. So it's tough. It's tough, but it's the time to celebrate, and you can't be too strict. You have to indulge a little bit, and
that's important. You know, it's time to be with friends and family and kind of kick back and think back how the year was and you know, gather with some of the people that you really care about, and that's really important. Hey, this is a cliff you're host of earth ancients, and not only do we wish you happy holidays, but as they comes, and I think it's important to
think about all the wonderful events that have happened. And some are the ones that are not that great, but we don't want to keep those in our mind too long. But today we are going to revisit the subject of Atlantis. And we had my guests earlier this year, Jack Kelly, presenting a documentary that actually did very very well. I think there were several million people that watched it on Netflix, and then it was transferred to YouTube where you can
see most of it for free. Now. That documentary is called The Atlantis Puzzle, a true story of Ancient Greece, Africa and climate change across deep Time. And at that time we were speaking about the documentary and what they had found in Northern Africa, and at that time I was still kind of on the fence because they really had not found any ruins, any pyramids, any stone buildings,
any stone structures whatsoever. And this is why today's program is so important because, according to Jack, he has located and documented fifty percent more content than what was featured in the documentary. And this is what I've been looking for, Which are the stone foundations and ruins of ancient civilizations.
There are, and we'll hear about this today. There's a few pyramids that have been found in the Sahara Western Sahara area of Africa, and this is critical for us to believe this Rechat area, which is the circular geological formation that is highlighted in George Sarantida's book and research as the original mythologicaltis. So we're gonna hear more about that today. I have a gallery that I'm gonna put
up with some of the new photos. But he is still convinced that this area, the circular feature that sure looks very abnormal, very unusual, is the true Atlantis. Now, the other thing that comes up a great deal when we're talking about the time period for Atlantis, which is the I think they believe it's a one hundred thousand years up until present, is that the Sahara, what we call a desert, was not a desert at all. It
was actually very lush green. There were forests. There were areas that had huge foliage and land grass, which would be excellent for you know, growing crops, for you know, existing and supporting a large pop And the information in the book is which was just released a few months ago, is very detailed and actually has the evidence from geologists, from anthropologists, from archaeologists who are out there right now in Africa foraging through the land and looking for these
items that are out there. So today's program is the Atlantis Puzzle, and my returning guest is producer writer Jack Kelly. It's time to look forward to twenty twenty six for new tours and we have our seventh annual Grand Egyptian Tour coming up in April twenty eighth through May tenth. This is an opportunity to see the largest statuary in
the world. We're going to go out and see old Kingdom ruins as well where we have pyramids, was we're left of temples and some monumental megaliths in obelisks and cut stone that rarely are visited by the general public. For all the information and details, including a wonderful iterary, go to Earth Ancients dot com forward Slash Tours look for the semath annual Grant Egyptian Tour banner. Click it
you'll see the full itinerary. We've just added Armando May to discuss the recent discoveries and scans of the Cufu and Caffree Pyramids, which we will visit personally. He will be our special guest and more in Cairo. There's a lot more to check out, a lot more that's being added, but this is a very very good, solid and inexpensive tour. Our tours are about half the cost of everyone else. So for more information go to Earth Ancients dot com
Forward Slash Tours, come out and join us. We featured a documentary earlier in the year called The Atlantis Puzzle with the producer Jack Kelly, and it was very well received. It was probably the best example of proof that there was a place called Atlantis, and I had to say I enjoyed it. And we are bringing Jack back because he's just released a new book called The Atlantis Puzzle, a true story of Ancient Greece, Africa and climate change
across deep Time. And I had a chance to look at it, and not only do we want to talk about it, but he has a lot of new material in this book that is important to discuss and very relevant. So Jack, welcome back to Earth Ancient. Is great to have you on the program. How you doing, Cliff, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me talk about this book. Was this always in the mix when you started the documentary or did it just come out from the work that you produced in the documentary.
The research that went into the film I think asked to be brought out in a book format. So, first of all, as most people know, George Serantidis is the mastermind behind all these recent discoveries and thought processes around the real geography of Atlantis, so I always like to give him credit first and foremost. And George's book is a too divorce. I mean, it's it's on an academic
level of detail and so forth. So as I was doing the research for this project, I had to leave a lot of things out of the film that I felt were really worth talking about or including in a chapter or a sidebar in a book where you could go into more detail. And so after the film was done, you know, I kind of kept you know, it's like one of those things where you think you're you think you're done going to the cookie jar and then you're like, oh,
maybe just one more. And I just kept thinking, you know, there's so much interesting stuff here that we couldn't fit into the film. Let me put this down into book format and in that sense kind of build on what both George and the film had accomplished.
Let's highlight the documentary. You feature George. We actually had him on the program. He's a Greek researcher and he found this portion of I guess it's North Africa that has this geological formation that basically follows the somewhat the writing of Guy. It's not Homer Plato, thank you. I'm thinking of Homer. I've been reading about Homer lately. But Plato talks about these concentric rings and the channels and the various landforms that come up in this location. What
else does the documentary begin to talk about. Let's highlight that. Yeah.
So The Atlantis Puzzle came out last year and you can find it on Amazon and to Be and you know, dozens of different networks, and it's been pretty well received. And that documentary tells George Serrantidus's story, and for those who aren't familiar with him, George is a Greek researcher who had a deep interest in Plato, and he was always really puzzled by the Atlantis story because he thought, well, this doesn't really fit exactly in with a lot of
Plato's other writings and stories. And one of the things that makes it different, because Plato does reference myths in some of his other philosophic writings, is that the Atlantis story had very specific dates attached to it. So that
was sort of the first interesting thing. So George was going back and spending some time on this, and he had spent a lot of time looking at Plato's use of mythology, and when he started digging into the Atlantis story to really try and pick it apart, he realized that there were some key mistranslations in the story that had led it to be considered in the realm of fantasy. And I don't want to offend anybody, but led to a lot of weird, fringe theories and things that we
know are not scientific. Right, A continent never existed in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean that sank in a single day and night. Right, That's just not how physics works. But as George dug into this deeper, he came up with a sort of schematic geography and you know, not
to spoil the film for people. Essentially, through the process of elimination and referencing some other ancient historical and geographic texts, he he narrowed down the geography to essentially western northwestern Africa, and there's a lot of reasons that we go into in the film as to why that is probably the case and how the reasons that that fits the story. Key point here, that's the geography of the story. A lot of people have sort of jumped to the conclusion
that that means the story is completely true. What this is is a clue that sort of says, look, this is the geography that was being spoken about. Well, to me, Cliff, that means, hey, now you have to take this story seriously and you have to really do some work. You
can't assume it's all true or all false. You really have to pick it apart and try and figure out which elements here are real because we have, you know, we have this sort of smoking gun that there's real geography here that matches up with the story in an extremely detailed way as far as natural geography right can fit,
sort of perfect geometrical shapes. It's it's extremely close, and so I think the skeptics took that, and I've had some critics say, well, this is pseudo archaeology, this is fake. And I've had some insane people reach out to me and sort of say, I know about you know, all this history and nuclear wars and aliens and just transdimensional beings and the continent of Moo. They had a war with Atlantis. I'll reveal my sources if you reach out
to me. And I've sort of said thanks, but no thanks Palace.
Yeah, yeah, I get that a lot too.
Yeah, I'm gonna sit back. But I think what's exciting about this is much like the story of Troy, you know, the Trojan War and Heinrich Schlieman's discovery of that in the eighteen seventies and eighties. He found that Troy was a real place. Now, does that mean that every line in the Iliot is true? No? Right, I mean the gods didn't swoop down and zap people with thunderbolts, and you know, I don't think anyone believes that happened. But now we believe that this is a real place. So
there is a historical rooting to the story. And so that's the big question, Mark Cliff, is what were the historical roots that led to the myth that Plato has referenced.
I think George Sarantius makes a very good point too. He revisited Eucretius in these other documents and read them and translated them into the original Greek, which was really very important because we get a great deal of new information that comes out in the documentary. That was a highlight that I think was important.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Yeah, we really tried to without dumbing George's you know, analysis and his grammar, you know, and all the hard work he did, dumbing it down too much or getting lost in the weeds, but trying to convey the discoveries that he made. And a great example is just the word Pelagos. So in the old translations, people said, well, atlantic Pelagos. Plato must have been talking about the Atlantic Ocean, because I know the Atlantic Ocean.
Everybody knows the Atlantic Ocean, and nobody here at Oxford or wherever in eighteen fifty three has ever heard of an Atlantic Pelagos. Well, what George was able to do was put together modern knowledge about climate change that is really mind blowing, and map that onto the story and say, well, look, this doesn't say okeanos. And the Greeks knew what the Atlantic Ocean was, right, the tin trade with Britain had been going on since the Bronze Age or earlier, so
they knew the ocean was there. The Carthaginians knew the ocean was there. I mean, Plato knew the ocean was there. He uses the word okeanos and other Platonic books dialogues, he doesn't use it here. Well, Plato's not a guy to just throw around random words. He means something specific, and pelagos is the word that modern Greeks use for
like the Aegean sea or the Ionian sea. Right, It's a specific type of a body of water partially enclosed by And so George started looking for okay, what body of water could could fit this, and he couldn't find one. But then he started to think about overlaying time. If you go back eleven or twelve thousand years. One of the most shocking things about this whole story to me that I was sure was maybe dubious. I was proven wrong.
I mean, the green Sahara is a staggering climatic climactic change that for people who don't know, takes place in these twenty thousand year cycles. So if you go back to the time of the myth of Atlantis ninety six hundred BC, North Africa was green. It was like Savannah.
There were massive lakes, and one of these lakes in particular, empties out in the location of modern Tunisia at the Gulf of Gabez, not far from Sicily, and that geography matches up extremely specifically to the geography that Plato's talking about in the Atlantis myth. So I think from that standpoint, we've for anybody with an open mind, I think we've erased pretty much all shadow of a doubt about where that geography was.
And and you.
Know, the the philological and the historical and climactic facts that support that identification.
It's funny because what's the formation called in North the Africa is the reshat.
Yeah, there was shot structure, right, Yeah.
And it's very interesting because George highlights it in a way where that whole area was much greener, much more abundant in forestry and things like that. It's a whole different world. And I'm trying to think back to the actual period of time when it would be over. It's over twenty thousand years, right, I mean, and then all of a sudden, through a climatic change, it turned into a desert. So what would be the inception for the Atlantis to have been started to develop into a culture.
Yeah, So this is one of the things the questions that I think is really open because you know, the evidence, the physical evidence that they were shot doesn't reflect a massive city of the type described in the myth. What physical evidence has been found, and again it's a huge area forty kilometers you know in circumference or in sorry diameter, So I don't even think the surface has been scratched there.
But there have been archaeologists who've done work out there, and they have found a tremendous amount of stone tools dating back to actually even before the Holy Scene era, so you know, pre ten thousand BC, pre ninety six hundred BC. So we know that ancient people have been visiting, hunting, living in this place over long periods of time. And but you have to put on your sort of long
view binoculars to think back these twenty thousand year cycles. Right, So today we're kind of at the apex of the dry period, right, But if you were to go back ten thousand years to you know, eight thousand BC, you'd
be at the peak wet period. So at that time there was shot had these circular lakes essentially like this concentric Ring Ring lakes, and we know that ancient people would have probably they're fresh water fossils there, right, So we know that there was marine life, and we know that ancient people have a long standing relationship with aquatic areas, so we know people would have been hunting, in fishing and spending time there, and there's stone tools that illustrate that.
What we don't know is anything beyond that. To be frank and honestly, anybody who says otherwise, the work just hasn't been done. So as to what type of well why people would have would have lived there, I think is because of these shallow lakes and the fishing opportunities and the maybe defensive capabilities as well. That brings up questions about well, how these guys get out there? Did
they swim? Did they have boats? And that leads us down the whole you know, the whole story that we cover in the in the film, and to a greater extent in the book about Hey, what what are the facts of this time period? And what are we starting to learn? What are the parts of the Atlanta story that could be true, and what are the parts that don't seem They seem like later editions or you know, functionalizations or or things like that.
Yeah, Plato describes atlant as being you know, devoured by the ocean. It's sunk.
Uh.
But you don't believe that's the case, obviously, and Georgie doesn't either. What would be the causation for its demise though? Was it a was it like Charles Hapgood who believes that the crustal displacement shifted Atlantis and it's now that he believes that the Antarctica is is Atlantis. And there's a number of other authors that we've had on the program, researchers who feel the same way. But obviously, if this uh, northern African area has just been decimated at some point
it still exists. What was the cause? Was it a tsunami? Was it a horrific flood? What?
What?
What? What do you believe is the causation of its demise?
Yeah? So I I this is there's two points to what you're talking about Cliff and one of them is again a sort of a mistranslation. The idea that and I won't go into the ancient Greek because it's a little abstruse, but the idea that a whole continent sank
is a misreading of the ancient Greek. What it says, more likely, or more appropriately realistically, is that the the civilization or the city or whatever was was there, there was an earthquake, there was a there was a flood, and the city was was sort of covered over by water. Now that's a very different that's a very different translation than suddenly you're going from the realm of continents disappearing to oh, a city got flooded and there was an earthquake. Well, again,
this is why George's work was so important. Was I think some of these older academics just took you know, they took their own knowledge. I mean, these guys weren't earthquake experts, so they didn't you know, they're sort of taking a bit of poetic license. So one of the things we did in the film, and I was grateful to be able to do, was talking with Oregon State University Engineering dean and earthquake expert doctor Scott Ashford, and I went to him. I said, look, Scott, I just
want you to to break this down. Here's the idea. And he sort of corroborated. Look, a tsunami can't sink a continent, right, and and an earthquake doesn't sink a continent overnight.
Right.
This would take some time, and you'd have to have some massive cataclysmic event. Obviously, the land's still there, right, the city's still there, The west part of Africa hasn't disappeared, so it's still there. What could have taken place? And
he really, to his credit, took some time. And he he was familiar with some Native American myths that they you know, people he knew had substained floodniss that everyone thought was you know, nonsense because it talks about you know, the great Spirit beating the drum and the waves.
Of that stuff.
Well, guess what, that's just a symbolic way of illustrating real events. And so they were able to find this is a sidebar, but they were able to go back. There was a They found that there was this massive tsunami that hit the northwest coast of the United States and Canada about three hundred and twenty five years ago, around seventeen hundred. And the way they figured this out was they went back to newspaper articles in Japan that spoke about a tsunami that had struck Japan at that time,
where there was no earthquake associated with it. Well, what does that mean. That means the earthquake happened way out in the Pacific, which means it would have generated waves in the opposite direction as well, which which hit you know, north western United States and caused the local people to create this myth about this great flood that took place. It wiped out a lot of people, right, and you know, the story goes that those people only survived because their
ancestors tied their canoes to the tops of trees. Now did that really happen? I don't necessarily think so, But there is evidence that a massive tsunami penetrated you know, ten miles inland, So you can only imagine those coastal communities would have been you know, or something like that,
you know, would have been decimated. So Scott Asher took a look at the Atlantis story and I, you know, I talked to him about it and basically said, look all the processes that Plato's describing in this myth or this story, these are real.
Right.
Earthquakes are real. Tsunamis are real. Liquefaction is this thing where you have wet soil and when the earthquake hits it, it sort of creates this vibration. Well, everybody's experienced this. If you've gone to the beach, right, you stand there a dry sand and you're good. When the wave comes in. What happens your feet start to sink into it? Rightah, Just think about this on a bigger scale, And I mentioned this in the book where there have been some
massive recent examples of this. For example, in New Zealand about fifteen years ago there were these two huge earthquakes and there was incredible amounts of liquefaction. You buildings sliding around and sinking. And these are modern buildings built to code to resist this. So you can only imagine Green Sahara period, large amounts of rain water from these mountains that kind of surround part of the rashot water coming down.
You could imagine a landslide falling into these circular lakes and the sort of a giant wave or a series of waves striking whoever lived there. Again, I'm not saying who did or didn't live there, but any civilization, any
any structures. You could imagine people living in this, you know, large community of adobe buildings or mud huts and things like that, just getting totally decimated by an event like that, And then you could imagine that story gives rise to a to a mythos right, that that gets graduated and grows.
So I don't I wasn't there. I don't know exactly what happened, but what we do know is that that location at that time, with those climate conditions, with the water that was present, et cetera, that that's a realistic scenario based on George's reading of the story. So some piece of what has come down to us it could have happened.
I was wondering your take on George's analysis on just how sophisticated the Atlantinians were. There's rumors, there's mythologies, there's My belief is that the Maya of the America's were descendants,
some of them were descendants. To my feeling, the Maya were multi racial, multicultural from different parts of the world, and we see the predynastic Egyptians being fairly sophisticated in the number of areas, Do we have any sense at all the level of sophistication that the Atlantinians had it all in terms of mathematics, engineering, the sciences.
Basically, Yeah, I think this is one of those tricky I think this is one of those tricky questions, Cliff, because it's not clear that the people described in the Platonic myth maps up exactly to you know, what the archaeological evidence suggests. However, as we did in the film, and as I've done, you know, tried to do in this book, I've taken a hard look at are what are the all the different elements that are spelled out in the myth, what is implied by that? And then
what does the evidence match up with that. So there's a few that I'll just tell you are probably not real, and then I'll go into the things maybe if you want to talk about that I think are real or surprising or shocking. So the things that do not appear to be real are some of the specifics of the descriptions of like the city and you know, the army. For example, they talk about these people fighting with chariots, and having you know, these huge navies of triremes and
things like that, that is most likely untrue. How why do I say this before anyone gets mad at me? Well, talks about gymnasiums. As far as we know, the first gymnasium does not appear in the archaeological record until around seven hundred BC. So the idea that there was a gymnasium, you know, eleven thousand years ago, they disappear for the archaeological record for ten thousand years then they just reappear suddenly. It's like, that doesn't sound right. So, you know, things
like that. The size you know again, the size of the populations, a lot of it. This is a disputed area. As I'm sure you're aware from your work in South America and Central America. You know, the populations described are too large for the time period based on our current estimates. However, as you're aware, recent work on ancient population estimates has
totally changed. So for example, the Amazon Jungle, as I'm sure you're aware, you know, for most of our lives, everyone sort of said, well, no one ever really lived there, and no high cultures. Maybe one to two million people
at most, kind of pre Columbus. Well, recently those papers have sort of they've first of all, they've found huge amounts of settlements that people had missed because they're sort of earth mounds and the architecture had been made out of wood, so that had all deteriorated, you, And they didn't until they started looking at it from satellite views or overhead views. They couldn't really see these shapes in
these forms. And there's huge, huge settlements that used to exist in the Amazon, right, So overnight the population estimate of one to two million went to like ten to fifteen million like that. So what I mean to say by that is one of the frustrating things when you're trying to peer back into the ancient past is it's really hard to be accurate with your numbers. So Plato says, hey, there was an army of one point four million people in the navy of two hundred and forty thousand people.
That's probably a number that is meant to be reflective of the Greek estimates of the Persian Empire that had invaded Greece like basically a couple generations before Plato. That was the largest army anybody had ever heard of in Greece. So I think Plato transplanted similar numbers onto the myth.
When will you think.
About what the population that's required to support an army of one point six million guys? You know you got to have probably twenty thirty million people, right, And the evidence or the current scientific consensus of what the population of the whole planet was in ten thousand BC is you know, one to ten million. My problem with that is is it one or.
Is it ten?
So I think there's the academia has we put a lot of respect to these because they're numbers coming from very respected, thoughtful, intelligent people. But Cliff, if I was to tell you that the population of Earth today is somewhere between eight and eighty billion, what would you say to me? You'd say, Jack, you've got to dial those
numbers in. That's a pretty broad spectrum, and from a percentage basis, that's the same thing as one to ten million, right, Yeah, I mean, so we have this false I think we have this false idea of the specificity of the past, or we did kind of until maybe the last couple decades, where as I'm sure you and your audience are where we've started to revisit a lot of these assumptions, and so I just want to point that out because I
think it's an interesting thing to think about. What do we think we know and why do we think we know it? Because if you're saying, well, we're looking at birth rates and death rates and we're calculating back. Yeah, but what happens when you run into something like the Black Plague? That'll throw your numbers right off right, I mean before that and after that the population of Europe got cut in half, So you know, you have to
account for some of that stuff. So I don't think he can just abstract backwards, but not to get into that too deeply. What are the parts of the Atlantis story that are shocking and surprising and have a real basis to them that's a little mind blowing. Well, things like transcontinental trade, This is this is, this is real, and anybody can go out if you doubt me, and read the primary sources on this.
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, writer producer Jack Kelly, discussing his new book just released, The Atlantis Puzzle. Will be right back.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
Every way. To take a look on the five and ten listening once again with candy canes and silver lanes aglow, it's beginning to let a lot like Chrismas my guest today is Jack Kelly. He has written a new book based on his documentary, The Atlantis Puzzle. This is a detailed look at the actual geological land formations, more details on Plato's description of the Great Island Continent and other details that have come to light since the release of
the documentary in April of this year. We're gonna talk about that right now. In fact, that's our next level. And regarding that, if we can show and apparently you've discovered some trade networks that are I guess from the Stone Age, how do we know that Atlanta has had anything to do with that? Or is the research just that we have discovered these trade routes in the Neolithic period that were significant.
Exactly. So one of the challenges with this whole Atlantis story is is North Africa is a and the Sahara is a poorly studying place archaeologically right, and there's good reasons for that. It's a harsh climate. It takes a lot of money to get out there. It's it's hard to support logistically, and frankly, there's some extremist groups operating in large swaths of you know, North Africa. Don't want to you don't want to run into those.
We're talking about the pirates and the other types.
That are, you know, kind of extreme warlords. You mean it's warlords, you know groups and they're out Yeah. Yeah, Well, you know, I've I've talked to I've talked to archaeologists who have done work in areas like the Western Sahara, which is a contested era, a region adjacent to Mauritanian Morocco, and there's incredible structures out there. We show some of them in the film. There's pictures in the book, these stone structures, and a lot of those haven't been firmly dated.
I mean, the supposition is that those are Neolithic. But you know, you need to take a team out there and do a heck of a lot of work. Yeah, he needs to be safe to be able to you know,
to corroborate this. But be that as it may. If you look at these trade networks, one of the one of the things that I tried to do in the film was say, Okay, we might not have evidence from this immediate area, but let's look at what was going on at this time period in the sort of Mediterranean you know, Europe Mediterranean era and North Africa region, and let's see if we can extrapolate, because you know, just like Newton and Leibniz discovering calculus at the same time,
technological breakthroughs, for whatever reason, it's not well understood. While they're not always lined up, often are approximate, you know, across similar areas.
Right.
So one of the things we looked at was like, well, were there even trade networks and long distance trade happening in the early Holo scene, right, which and again for people who don't know the holocenees like ninety six hundred BC to the present day, that's a sort of epoch of time. And the answer is yes, I mean there are there. A great discovery was off the coast of the UK. There were and we talked about this in
the film. There was a site underwater where they they found had had previously of course been above water, had two types of grains that were not native to the UK, and they were dated to about eight thousand years ago and you say, well, how did this grain? How this
grain get here? And what they figured out was this this grain came from the region of modern Turkey, so you know the area around what at that time, you know, go Beckley, Tepe and all that kind of stuff, so that that there was trade with this grain has no there's no ancestors of this, these types of grains in northern Europe, right, so it's not native. That's a trade network of two five hundred kilometers cliff and this.
Is thousand years ago.
So that's one example. Another great example from a you know, a more recent time is pearl millet, which is a type of grain which originates in Mauritania Mali in western Africa. The weird thing about this is this was a prevalent grain there and around twenty five hundred BC, so much more recent time period, right four thousand, five hundred years ago. But what's weird about that is that grain appears in
India about within a couple hundred years. The thing is it's not really found in the Middle East, and it's not no evidence of it has been found at Saharan oases because you'd say, oh, they went over land. What that implies is that four th five hundred years ago there was a direct aquatic you know, seafaring trade route from western Africa to India. I mean, that's one of
the only ways to explain the evidence at hand. So I think this type of thing starts to open you up and the deeper in time you look by the way, this is a trend that continues. Middle East. There's a place called Matsas City. I think it's around ten thousand BC. They had found artifacts and you know, trade items that had come from distant areas in the Middle East. So
that's twelve thousand years ago. And then one of the most shocking ones, Cliff is you go back three hundred thousand years to a time that we understand people to have been these small hundred gatherer groups and there's evidence in Africa that they were trading with groups dozens of miles away and that stone for their tools came from something times. You know, it could be hundreds of miles away. How did they know it was there? You know, who
were they trading with what? So I think what this does is it doesn't outright prove anything, and I try to stay away from that, but it shows that maybe our understanding of the ancient past that I learned, certainly in high school or college growing up, is a little different than what we think it is.
I think it needs to be more flexible. I think our historians are so rigid. For me, you have theories and hypotheses that are turned into facts because no one else is questioning this. And this is the problem that
I have with Mesoamerica. These people had very sophisticated backgrounds mathematics, sciences, agriculture, and they're considered stone age, right, you know, so something is really really a skewed There address something that you just brought up that's featured in the book, which is a frustration of mine, which was not being able to find stone evidence buildings, temples, pyramids. And in the book you feature the work of doctor Nick Brooks, and he
discovered in western Sahara step a step pyramid. Yeah. And then he also found stone structures and I couldn't believe it. You have a photo of a dolmen. Yeah, talk about that that. I mean, that's remarkable. That's those are not simple structures.
No, this is And Nick's a great guy, by the way, He was very generous to allow me to use some of those photographs and so forth in the film and whatnot. And yeah, you know, I've read Nick's book. It's it's worth reading if you have an interest in Western Saharan archaeology. But that's the group I was mentioning who had found all these different stone structures, and you know, they're I think making some risk to life and limb being out there because there was you know, I think a civil
war being fought it around that time. So there's a lot more work that needs to be done out there. But you know, I'm sure your your audience is familiar with Knabduplaia, which is in the eastern Sahara, right, You know that site that's the sort of pre date stoneheads. It's probably seven to ten thousand BC something like that. That's one of the most fascinating and bizarre sites in
the world, astrologically aligned, very high degree of sophistication. I think it was discovered by Fred Wendorf's team, who's a famous Southern Methodist University archaeologist.
And.
These some of these sites in the Western Sahara are very similar. And I don't think the analysis that Wendorf did and his team on the archaeo astronomy has been done on these sites, and but for boy, from a first glance, they look remarkably similar, right, an arrangement of vertical stone columns in a way that doesn't suggest a graveyard, It suggests, you know, more like a like a North European stone circle.
Right, So let me stop you were you referring to archaeo astronomy when they actually have the foundation place in a certain way that is aligned with the North Pole.
Yeah, so like Nabtiplia is a tremendously sophisticated astronomical observatory, just like Stonehenge. Right, it just happens to be smaller, and it's in the middle of the eastern Sahara Desert,
and it's from thousands of years before Stonehenge. Yeah, amazing, you know, And that's one of the things, like you bring up, Cliff, how are the people such sophisticated astronomers and mathematicians and builders, thinkers, you know, seafarers at such an early period of time, But we picture them as these sort of dirty, knuckle dragging half apes, right, I
mean that's the common conception. But you know, here you have evidence in the western Sahara and again most of these the estimated dates are more Neolithic, maybe like three four maybe five thousand BC, but I don't think there's any conclusive dating that's been done. You also find these weird structures that look like giant walls that have collapsed, and now we're those walls that were defensive territorial. Was
it to keep livestock? You know, nobody knows, right, You just find these long trains of stones that clearly there was there was something here. Yeah, so I think there's there's a mystery there about that. And and the other thing is there's these things called keyhole tombs, many of which have been found across the Middle East and North Africa.
And these are they look like a keyhole because there's usually a burial, but then there's a sort of stone walls that go out and they are aligned to you know, solstices and all kinds of things, and these are you assume this is just some hunter gatherer people, and you know this is not we're not talking like dynastic Egypt level of sophistication. And yet here they are. They've they've
aligned these things with precision. There was clearly a fascination with an understanding and a science awareness of the night sky and and and of the movements of the sun and the moon and so forth.
Yeah, amazing. And one of the things that I was pleasantly surprised to read is the New Seafaring Discoveries, and you sent me an article and I believe is mentioned in the book, which is the migrations of people by water are over one hundred thousand years old. This is huge, And my biggest issue with Mesoamerican culture is that current mayanists, these are archaeologists who study specifics in Mayan culture, believe there has never been a migration, that these are just
natural indigenous people. But the problem with this is that you look closely at their artifacts and there's African centric, Asian centric, Middle East and centric faces people and artifacts from these other locations. The only way they got to Mexico was by migrating by open water. So it makes the case for me. But I'd like to you to talk a little bit about what is featured in the book and why this is an important discovery.
Yeah, you know, before we dive into that, I'll just tell you I took an interest in the seafaring and actually was working I still kind of developing a documentary about that as well, which is still in the early research stages. But the fact of the matter is they've found, you know, strains of DNA in you know, in South America and Central America that that that's appear to match up if I recall correctly with some of these more like Aboriginal peoples of you know, kind of Australia and
some of those others around there. Well, how did those guys get there? I mean, that doesn't fit fit the traditional migration across you know, the Baringian land bridge story and suggests and certainly if you look at the spread of the Polynesians who completely colonized the Pacific Ocean in a matter of you know, a few thousand, you know, a couple thousand years, it shows you and their level of technology was not higher than the people who had
immediately preceded them per se. So you know, this idea that people just kind of decided to walk across a massive glacier locked ice bridge to get over to North America I think has been soundly disproven by the fact that, you know, the first of all, you have these different strains of DNA, but second of all, that you have, Like in my home state of New Mexico, there's you know, that discovery of the footprints from twenty three thousand years ago,
which overturned this scientific paradigm of the Clovis first, Like, Clovis people came here twelve thirteen thousand years ago. No one was here before that. That's how it is. If you suggest anything else, we will blackball you and you'll be laughed out of academia. That was the paradigm, Cliff and all those There was a few a few academics who had the courage to say, hey, like that guy in the Carolinas who's like, I've got a site here. It looks like it's twenty five thousand years old.
Yeah, Totter or tur or whatever his name is.
Evel ridiculed the guy, right, Yeah, guess what, He's probably right.
Yeah, here we go.
We have unequivocal evidence. So I think that just goes to your point about overturning scientific paradigms. But let's talk about the seafaring. This this blew my mind. When I was doing this research. I was certain that this would prove to be one of the things that was untrue. Well,
I was wrong about that. So I think, you know, at least I don't know about you, but I learned in kind of high school or whatnot that the first seafaring people were probably the Egyptians or the you know, kind of the the mid you know, Middle Eastern, maybe like you know, Babylonians, Babylonians or you know, err or whatever, you know that kind of stuff. Maybe it was like three thousand BC. Yeah, sort of thing. Well, you know, one of the eye openers here is that's not true.
And we know this isn't true because first of all, we actually have physical evidence of boats that are older than this, and we show this in the film. You know, there's in Africa the Dafuna canoe, and this speaks to the reality of the Green Sahara period, by the way, because the Dafuna canoe was found within about twenty five or fifty kilometers of the ancient shoreline of the Mega
Lake Chad. Right, So people who were living in these river networks around the lake had these huge canoes and we only find one that happened to have been buried in clay. Well, you and I both know it's like if you have a car, I mean I have a car, right, everyone has a car. So if one guy had had a giant canoe or one tribe, you could be sure the other people around there had them too. Why don't we find them. Well, it's a tropical climate and wood
deteriorates within a couple hundred years. So unless it's locked in this case, it was buried in this like clay sediment, you're never going to find it. So the Dafuna canoe demonstrates for a fact that in the middle of the Green Sahara people had large sophisticated canoes and were sailing and zipping around all over the place. That matches up more with what we think of in this Atlanta story of these people have a large fleet of boats, right and the war. Maybe it's more war canoes. Maybe they're
not Greek try Rates, but maybe they look a little different. Well, you keep you keep seeing this, right, if you go back to the oldest the oldest physical boat we have is called the Pessa canoe, and I think it was found in amsterd I am accidentally by, you know, a highway construction crew that was digging up like a peat bog to lay a highway in and they found this like kind of boat looking thing, and you know there in this this caused controversy to Cliff, just to show you
how back we are in terms of our thinking. People said, oh, this is a this is a couldn't possibly be a canoe, this is a trough for feeding animals. And I'm like, but more domesticating livestock at twelve thousand years ago that we know of, So why do they need a trough? So and then they tested, they made a copy and tested it, and sure enough it was. It paddled, it floated, it was a canoe. And today there's no doubt about that.
But that was the supposition. So until very recently, like within the last hundred years, even the last fifty years, the supposition has been nobody had boats going back eight ten thousand BC. And that's flat out wrong. So the thing people have to remember is the wood will disintegrate. So we have to look at the indirect evidence. What do we often find stone anchors right back ring stones? You tend to find these all over the Mediterranean in
other places. But more importantly, what about islands that were never connected to the mainland and are distant from other you know, require a journey of you know, some tens of kilometers to get there. Well, I don't think large groups of people were swimming out there. That seems out of question, right. I mean maybe there was like one dude who could have done it, but it just doesn't make sense right to go that far. In some cases
you're talking hundreds of kilometers. So Crete is a great example. Crete's the largest island in Greece. It's right smack in the middle of the eastern Mediterranean. Crete has been a detached island for at least four to five million years, right, so it wasn't connected to the mainland, even during you know, kind of cold periods where the sea level might have dropped a little bit. It's quite remote from the mainland
on Crete. I believe it was about two thousand and eight or nine there was a discovery made where they were looking for some stone tools from ten thousand years ago twelve thousand years ago, and what they found, cliff was layer after layer after layer in this gorge. When they started looking at the strata showing that there were stone tools there carved by people from yeah, nine to
ten thousand years you know BC. But then they found them from twenty five thousand BC, forty thousand BC eighty thousand BC up to one hundred and thirty thousand years ago. So let's stop and think about what this means. Human beings have been sailing in some kind of oh to crete for at least one hundred and thirty thousand years.
That's mind blowing. That's I love it. I love hearing that.
And this is this is not you know, Joe, ancient aliens doing this. This is this is academic archaeologists have confirmed this, and.
This is all recently. This is all recent stuff.
Though, this is all within the last decade, yeah, that
these papers have come out. And the other cliff, I'll take it two steps further, so that shows you that, look, if people have been sailing for one hundred and thirty thousand years, the idea that someone you know, an Atlantean type culture or or you know, grew a culture from ten to twelve thousand years ago, was sailing as small beans, right like this is this is not that that shouldn't stagger us, right, It only staggers us because most people don't know this context. If you go, I'll take you
one further. There's another island in Greece. I'm gonna I'm forgetting the specific island. It might have been Melos, but I can't remember where. There are many different time periods where stone tools were dug up. But this is an island in the middle of the Aegean. Again, I'm blanking on which one it is. But of course there's tools going back long periods of time that were used by Homo sapiens. But they've found tools there that match up
with Neanderthal tools. And again, this is a detached island in the middle of the Aegean. You had to get there by boat, and this is from two hundred thousand years ago. So now you got it's not just Homo sapiens sailing around in boats, it's Neanderthals sailing around in boats.
No. I had to wonder for a second here, Jack, if the academia just can't conceive of early man having the sophistication to travel by boat, they just are locked into like these people are just too stupid, yeah, to put together a raft or a canoe or even some kind of a ship and travel great distances to new locations. It's it's like an impediment, like a speech impediment. It's a brain impediment that blocks they're thinking because I'm just
perplexed at it. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today producer Jack Kelly discussing his newly released book, The Atlantis Puzzle, will be right back.
Boom, Santa Baby, just slipper sable under the tree for me. Then an awful good girl, Santa Baby, So hurry down the chimney to night.
My guest today, Jack Kelly has produced a well received documentary that first ran on Netflix and is now available on YouTube. By punching in The Atlantis Puzzle, you can see it for free in his entirety. The new book, which is just released, has fifty percent more content and details on the geological discoveries and archaeological finds that have been made so far in the western Sahara area of
North Africa. Listen, as we come to the conclusion of our time together, I did want to expand on that navigation and ask you, and this is in the book, these trade networks, and you give us some nice examples of various grains that were found. Is there evidence of a region of fruits, vegetables or even other kinds of artifacts that have been found in unusual areas that only could have been taken there through trade waterways of some kind.
Yeah, I think this is one of the most interesting areas. And I think the mill example, like the pearl mill,
is a really strong one. I haven't personally found any yet from the time period we're talking about, but this is an example from the same geographic area, still from four thousand, five hundred years ago, right, So, you know, I think one of the surprising things we touched on Knob Duplia is a discovery of semi domesticated grains there, and so this sort of upended this idea of well, you know, Africans never domesticate anything outside of the Nile
River Valley. I mean, you know, I want to just sort of go just touch back on the seafaring thing. If people are have been seafaring across the Mediterranean for at least one hundred and thirty thousand years, there's also evidence in various you know, caves and tidal pools and things that people have understood astronomy for one hundred to one hundred and fifty thousand years, right, like understanding the tides and when you could collect shellfish and things like that.
It's more sophisticated than people understand. And it's not just like, hey, it's Tuesday, it's time to collect my shellfish. You really have to understand and the cycles of the moon and the tides and things like that with a degree of sophistication to figure that out. The seafaring thing. I just want to mention one more thing that blew my mind, which is in Southeast Asia, there's two islands that were never connected to the mainland. One of them's in the Philippines,
one of them's in Indonesia. Those two islands have evidence of human occupation that via butchered like you know, rhino bones or something going back eight hundred thousand to a million years ago. What's that mean, Cliff, These are not Homo sapiens. They're not Neanderthals as far as we understand. That's Homo erectus, who we perceive as a hairy, naked
proto man with a barely can command fire. But yet these people were here and they crossed distances of you know, twenty thirty miles by some type of craft to get there. So what I want to leave people with is a sense of kind of wonderment about the ancient cultures going back not just thousands, but tens or hundreds of thousands of years that we have lost. And we know that human civilization doesn't just go like this, right, there's these waves of rising and falling, of advancement and then kind
of dark ages. Right, we have that in our own history, right with the rise and the decline and fall of the Roman Empire and the dark ages and all that. Egypt has at least three known they call them intermediate periods, which were you know, you have these kind of these apex periods right with the Old Kingdom, and then there's there's a dark age for could be five, six hundred
or more years, and then there's a rise again. So if there's one thing we can say, it's that human civilization follows this curve of rising and falling as far
as we know throughout our observed history. No reason to assume that doesn't also continue far into the distant past, where there could be periods of a high culture which then is destroyed by natural disasters climate change, war, famine, disease, you name it, you know, fill in the blank, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and then Basically people go into these periods of subsistence and struggle. Right. So one of the things I know you have an interest in
is the concept of ancient or advanced civilizations. I don't believe that the Atlantis myth speaks of like a high technology people. I think it speaks of a more archaic Bronze Age or even classical Greek can really.
Yeah, that's that was my question to you, is if you were to put your finger on the highest level of Atlantinian culture, perhaps you know, during this most productive period. I was waiting for you to say, well, yeah, these are out of context because they were able to develop the telescopes, they had certain form of propulsion, and you're kind of going back to the basic You're just I mean, describe.
I want you to keep going. I want you to give me the description of what you think their level of scientific advancement was.
Yeah, so what Plato says in your writes in his dialogues is sounds an awful lot like, you know, kind of a Bronze Age civilization. They have chariots, they have you know, warships they have, but they fight with horse chariots, right, They're not fighting with hovercraft and atomic.
Right, yeah, or propeller planes of some kind.
Oh no. And people who are of saying, oh, you know they had this and they had that. Well, if all we're basing it on is the Platonic record, you know, his writing, it's not what it says, right. It sounds like an ancient Greek Bronze Age city state.
Right.
So a number of people have tried to say, take that story and say, well, this was inspired by a later story. I don't think that's true, Cliff. I think that's Plato putting the spin of his own era on a pre existing myth. So unfortunately, I don't think we know what the level of specific technology was. But I think what we can say for certain is that transcontinental trade networks were legitimate thing in the early hol.
Scene, which is fantastic.
We can stay that sailing across the Mediterranean was a real thing during the early hol Of scene. We can say that you know, astronomy, and you know, possibly even early farming and irrigation things like that could have been in existence. But until a lot more archaeological research is done, I don't think we will know. And you know, one of one of my favorite things to think about is Are you familiar with the Eocene layers of mysterious origin? Yeah,
fifty five million years ago. There's these in the in the sort of fossil record, there's a period of time which is commensurate with what we would consider the climate effects of an industrial civilization. So there's a great paper oute there written by a couple guys called the Solurian hypothesis. These are academics, and they said, look, we're not saying that there was some sort of you know, dinosaur or descendant advanced industrial people living here. Probably it's from volcanoes
and natural climate change. But the the signature of this is probably what someone will be able to see of our own culture in fifty million years. So we are not able actually to distinguish. And I think this is one of the things I like to leave people with is thinking about, look, what's going to be left in ten thousand years from our civilization? What are you gonna find? Are you going to find maybe like a watch in
a cave somewhere. Are you going to find? Is the Hoover dam who was built to last ten thousand years. But what happens when you get to ten thousand and one and it dam breaks, and all that stuff gets pushed down river by the Colorado River. At Bury right, maybe you find some scraps of metal or I don't know, some congrege you like, and that stuff's going to deteriorate too. Really, all that will be left, even plastical deteriorate. All that
might be left is some sites of nuclear radiation. And even then the contents, the drums or whatever, that'll all be gone too. So that's something I like to leave people to think about, is what if we have such a hard time, you know, quote unquote proving what things were like in the distant past, what do we think people are going to think of us? And how will
how will the future? How will they actually be able to understand us If there's not a continued continuity of our culture, if we're not taking steps to avoid war, and if we're not ensuring that people have an understanding of the past, what are we going to be left with. Our descendants are going to be scratching their heads just like we are today, and what people are going to be hypothesizing as to whether we had airplanes?
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Uh, why don't we have more documents on Atlantis? If this was a huge place, and there were perhaps tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that were born on this so far mythological place known as Atlantis. What do you think there'd be more references out there of this place? I mean, I'm asking you because this has been your your go to
for the last several years. And if you ran across the document that was kind of odd or ambiguous but had some of the key features of Atlanta's it's an island and has sophisticated here or there, I mean, why don't we find more documents?
And I think it's it's pretty simple, Cliff. I don't think any written records as far as I'm aware of the oldest written scripts that actually have been found in Greece from about five thousand BC, So I don't think any written records ever survived from call it before, you know, anytime before that. I think, you know, stuff just is whatever was around is gone like.
Five thousand years ago, and then then that's it, because what fragments we have yet left or just melting away.
Well yeah, And I mean if you even just think about the scraps of ancient Egyptian or Greek documents we have ago, they're all deteriorated, and you know, and you know you have stuff carved in stone. But my thought is that Plato, I believe, took a pre existing story or a myth he had heard, and then I think he manipulated it for his own purposes. So I think people have to keep that in mind. The story we're getting. I don't think anyone should assume is all real or
all false. I think we should assume that a very wise and intelligent guy used used in it maybe a pre existing myth, and put his own spin on it for his own audience and for his purposes.
Right.
So, think about how many times Dracula has been retold, right, I think about and they range from Goofy Car to Nunes to really scary horror movies. Right. I think this is something where when we look back at the research, there are two groups of people who existed and in early Holy scene North Africa, one of which originated in the region of modern Mauritania. They were known as the land people, and they spread eastward across the north across
North Africa. Right in the early Holt scene expanded across all of North Africa. If that doesn't sound like the seeds of the Atlantis myth of a people moving from west to east across North Africa and conquering. I don't know what does, right, So that might be the real root of the story, was this expansion of these of
these niger congos speaking hunting people. And then I think what probably happened is Plato put a spinof this, because there are other Platonic dialogues where Plato references the idea in the Greek mind that ancient Egypt, Egyptian culture had been going on for at least ten thousand years, right. Well, you have to ask yourself, Cliff, how did they know that they didn't have archaeological science, this, that, and the other.
They knew Egypt was damn old and that these things were thousands of years old, but they didn't know exactly how old, right, And we know today that Egypt, the Nile River valley has probably been inhabited for seven hundred thousand years by different types of humans and people, and even some of the earliest structures there are fifty to one hundred thousand years old, like very simple stone things and so forth. So I think there was an idea
in the Greek mind. Egypt is the oldest place we know of that has written records, and so I think Plato's setting the story with the Egyptians communicating to the Greeks, Hey, you guys don't know your own history. We know it because we've got it written down. Let me tell you a story that shows just how ignorant you are, and just how well read you know, or how aware we are right right, And I think that that is one
of the purposes of the Atlantis story. And I talk about this a lot in the third part of the book. Some people might not find this interesting, but I went really deep into the philosophy and the references that Plato might have been making to the Odyssey, or to the Iliad, or to other ancient Greek myths or ideas. Why is he referencing these stories? And as you know in the film, you know this idea that Plato leaves off the end of Critias and it kind of directs you back to
the beginning of the Odyssey. Well, what's he trying to say, Hey, go read the Odyssey. No, I think he's trying to say, Hey, civilization can rise, and I'm giving you an example of a culture that you can't prove existed or didn't exist.
Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. And I'm trying to explain to you that if you don't take care of your current civilization, you're going to wind up on this long, circuitous odyssey, like you're going to go through dark ages and you're going to have a hard time getting even back to the point, you know where you are now.
So again, people kind of tend to forget about the philosophic side of this story, But I think Plato was taking an ancient myth shaping it to his own needs, you know, filling in details he couldn't possibly have known. I mean, how did he know how many two horse chariots the army had? I mean, think about it. You
couldn't have known that. So he's inventing. And then I think he's taking that story and making a point which you and I have talked about at length, which is, how do we know about the past if we don't have evidence, What do we need to know to be able to prove of things? Why does civilizations rise and fall? And what what what happens?
What?
What what's really behind those processes? And is there anything we can do to stop it maybe a scarier question.
Yeah, exactly. The books called The Atlantis Puzzle. My guest today has been Jack Kelly. This book came out just a couple of months ago in October, and I just saw it on Atlantis. It's well worth your time to pick it up. Lots of I think you must have self published it because there's a ton of colored photographs in here, which is very rare for a book of this size to to have. And uh, it's a it's a nice update and it's a nice addition to the documentary.
So how can people learn more about your work? Jack? Give us your website.
Sure, you can go to Atlantis Puzzle dot com and just you know, take a look at what we've got on there. You can and find The Atlantis Puzzle Book internationally in about a dozen countries on Amazon, and just so Jeff Bezos doesn't get all the money, it's also on Barnes and Noble.
Oh good, good for you. Fantastic All right, Hey, real pleasure having you on the program, and I'm looking forward to really deep diving into this book a little more. So, thanks for joining me.
Fantastic, Cliff, Thank you so much. Always a pleasure to talk with you.
One of the things that we touched upon in this interview was the obvious nature of mass migrations through ocean travel, and this is becoming much more clear to a lot of people other than the archaeological community, who are still very firm in their belief that there were no ancient migrations. These articles and I'm going to post a couple of
them on the Facebook page. There's one specific article that reveals that ancient man over one hundred thousand years ago was migrating by ocean in the Pacific from China to Australia. In fact, next year we're going to have Evan Young, who is in Sydney, presents some new data that reveals the Chinese were in Australia, but not just Australia, people
coming to the Americas, North America and South America. So this is something that has to be taken more seriously because there's been evidence forever over one hundred and fifty years, and this is the problem. For over one hundred and fifty years, the archaeological community has refused to believe that there was any mass migrations. And I'm presenting this right
now in my book. Is the multi racial types of people who lived thousands of years ago in present day Mexico, African centric, Asian centric, Middle Eastern, Caucasian, and a number of species of human that are gone not with us anymore, long heads, wide heads, very unusual cranial structures and bodies, and they probably were survivors of the Great Cataclysm. So so we need to look at this migration possibility with a little more clarity and not immediately say that it's
not possible, because it is possible. And now it's probable that our ancestors traveled quite frequently and migrated from Africa, Europe, Asia to North America. And I want to mention that we have a fifty percent discount now going on in our upcoming granted Egyptian tour April twenty eight through May tenth. It's half the typical price will pay for a similar tour for twelve days. This is a five star tour that includes all your flights, all your food, private visits,
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in Faia in Pakistan. You guys rock, Happy Thanksgiving and we'll talk to you next time.
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