Dr. Mark Carlotto: Egypt's Forgotten Labyrinth

This week we get into the revolution of high tech satellite imagery and ancient sites of Egypt. We'll be looking at the Hawara Pyramid and its association with an underground labyrinth which was visited by Herodotus, the great Greek historian, and excavated and documented by Flinner's Petrie, the father of Egyptology, in the late eighteen hundreds. And we want to know more about this mythological labyrinth. Through images

by satellite scans, we now know that there is a labyrinth. There is details of this labyrinth from this imagery, and we're going to learn about its great age, its purpose, and why we haven't heard about it from the Egyptian authorities. All this and more today on Earth Ancients for Saturday, October fourteenth, twenty twenty three. This is Earth Ancients. I'm your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, how you doing come? I didn't have a seat. Good to see you. I have questioned history from a very young age.

In fact, I think I've mentioned a number of times that I was asked to Sunday school numerous times because I questioned the Bible, I questioned the scriptures. I even questioned the man that is known as Jesus Christ of Nazarene and since that time, you know, and I think it has to do with my grandfather, who was a country doctor, but he had just an amazing library of Native American history. He had books by some of the early

anomalists, people like Charles Fort and others who I found quite unique. And these people were documenting unusual history, unusual events that were not necessarily reported by the newspapers or magazines of the turn of the century nineteen hundreds. He lived in the late eighteen hundreds, Charles Fort is who I'm referring to, and into the early nineteen hundreds. But I've always questioned history, and I've question the way it's interpreted. And as you've been listening to the shows, we've

had Native Americans, and most notably doctor Pauline Steve's. Doctor Steves, who is an indigenous archaeologist from Canada. If you remember she is working, presents in her book decades if not more than one hundred years of she considers ethnic cleansing where the oral traditions of her people and the native people throughout America the Americas has been disavowed or ignored, and we are we now know that these

oral traditions are extremely important, but the issues around delving into history and looking at ancient cultures is a big problem for me. And years ago when I started flying in meetium my Native Mayan friends in Yucatan, I definitely was having problems with the interpretations of their culture, the Maya culture, the beliefs that pyramids were tombs for dead people, and on and on and on. It got to be a real problem for me, and this is where we began

to see the launch of Earth Ancients. And I think I also mentioned that I was working in the corporate world in the mid nineteen nineties. I worked for PayPal for a number of years and then was a program director for a conference called Whole Life Expo that was in the late nineties. I eventually worked for other conferences that wanted my expertise on ancient cultures and people who had written about them. But not only that, UFOs aliens kind of scrange anomalies,

personal growth, spirituality, wellness. This is where destiny comes from and my need to express that desire to educate people about options for a wellness, for spirituality, for personal growth. But Earth Ancients is really about my need to

awaken us to a history that is being ignored. And today's guest is doctor Mark Carlotto, who has uncovered some very interesting data on the Hawara Labyrinth in Egypt, which is documented as far back as Herodotus, which who was the Greek historian who saw part of it and wrote a great deal about it. And then later in the eighteen hundreds, Flinders Petrie, who's considered the father of Egyptology, excavated the area where this labyrinth was and was very detailed in

his description of this huge underground labyrinth. Now you know, the issues with this is that we only hear it from outsiders. We don't hear it from the Egyptian authorities themselves, and it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate that there seems to be a lockdown when it comes to certain revelations about the ancient Egyptian past, certain sciences and technology, and it's become a problem to the point where here we are with these two scientists in Europe, Bione and Malanga, scanning the

Great Pyramid with this SAR technology without permission from the Antiquities Department. And let me tell you why I think they did this and why this is becoming a problem. Prior to that scan, we had the work of the Scan Pyramid Group, which is a consortium of scientists from Japan, from Egypt, and from Europe, and they were able to scan and discover this corridor above the

original entrance of the Kufu Pyramid, the Great Pyramid. But what people don't understand is this data has been held almost at ransom and they have not been allowed to release the full spectrum of their discoveries. There's a number of other discoveries of other rooms, apparently in corridors that have not been released to the public because the Antiquities Department doesn't feel that the public's ready. That's one.

That's one reason. And the other reason is, and I had to be blunt about this, the Egyptians, the Antiquities Department, and the people behind it have a complex. They do not want to have a notoriety of these new discoveries by anyone other than the Egyptians. And if you saw the Netflix special with the Zai hiwas doctor Hawas excavating parts of what he thinks is a new pyramid. He is very specific in his language of not wanting future discoveries

to be outside of Egypt. He can't control this. But they are cont controlling the narrative. And this doesn't just happen in Egypt. This happens in Mexico all the time. And we are left hands tied because we do not live there. You know, they want our money, but they want us to be bound by their rules and their regulations, and unfortunately it's a bit backwards. You know, they're thinking is backwards and it is restrictive, and it's extremely frustrating. So again, Beyones work, excuse me, yeah,

Beones work and Malanga scan the Kufu Pyramid. I have had doctor Manuseesiday as well as Mark Carlotto speak about this scan. It is a significant scan. I have a full version of the scan on our Facebook page. But they did not ask permission. They wrote a book about it, and I'm sure the Egyptian authorities are very unhappy. This kind of technology is giving us a

real good idea of just how sophisticated the ancients were. It's beginning to look like the historians don't want us to know that these pre dynastics, these early people in Egypt had this technology. And we'll here today from Mark in the last part of this interview where he actually believes that this Hiwara Labyrinth is of the earlier epoch and it dates between seventy five thousand and over one hundred and

thirty thousand years from this inception point. Those are unrealistic numbers for present day scientists. But you know what, these people have got to release the burden of data that is old. It is, it is not accurate, and it is deceiving to tell people that these early people who built the pyramid, who built many of the temples and buildings like the Osirian, which is a

total anomaly. And I mean I can probably name twenty different buildings that are not from any other period but pre Dynastic, a pre period that ends around nine thousand, five hundred years ago, so prior to nine thousand, five hundred years ago, or excuse me, five hundred BC, which is twelve

thousand, five hundred years ago. There was the end of the last Epoch, and I'm discovering and many of the people we have on earth, ancients, are revealing that there was a very sophisticated culture who built not only the pyramid, but many of the structures, many of the underground structures that we'll hear about, not only today, But every week that we have somebody talking about Egypt is bringing this up. So Earth Agients is about revealing this data

in as professional a manner as possible. We don't get into ancient aliens. This is not the work of aliens. This is not the work of some off world group. Although if we talk about the Maya, they do have an ancient, ancient history of working with star people, but that's not the

Egyptians. The Egyptians are a different look. I think that the ancestors, the earlier epochs were very likely as sophisticated as we were, which means that they were able to leave the planet in vehicles and study other planetary systems. That's my belief, and we don't have time to talk about that right now.

That's my general belief. So anyhow, today's program is a situation where we have evidence from the Greeks, Herodotus, we have Flinders Petrie, we have other people that we're going to hear about today that are done ground penetrating radar, which is good to hear and have come back with solid evidence of an underground system of buildings and rooms and pillars and so forth and so on, And why the authorities do not jump into that well a lot of reasons,

no money, no ambition to do this, restrictive nature, and it goes on and on and on and on. So the purpose of Earth Ancients is to bring you data on a new paradigm, a new paradigm of revelational science, a new paradigm of discovering technology. And the new paradigm is opening

us to understand who our ancestors were. And we're using the latest technology ground penetarian radar, satellite scans, saar technology, and software scanning tools that can penetrate solid grantite and stone, and on and on and on to reveal the ancients technology. It's time to move on from this old, dead rhetoric you've been fed for decades, rhetoric that tombs were burials of pharaohs, you know, and that the pre dynastic people were simple, that they were hunters and

gatherers. Our Orthodox history, for the most part, when it comes to ancient cultures, is guesswork, complete guesswork. It's asked backwards as well, it's completely asked backwards. So I want to play a short audio from a video that I'll post on the Earth Ancient Facebook page on the Mattaiah expedition of

two thousand and eight. This is the first time that ground penetrating radar is used at Hawara, and there's a pyramid there, and there's this labyrinth that they discoverers have a quick listen Howara situated ninety kilometers south of Cairo and location of the legendary Labyrinth of Egypt. In the Renaissance period, some attempts were made to make a graphic reconstruction of the colossal structure based on the writings of

Herodotus and Strabo, who visited the labyrinth in the Roman period. Two levels, twelve palaces, and no less than three thousand chambers. In eighteen eighty eight, archaeologist Flinders Petrie discovered a stone plate at the foot of the pyramid, measuring three hundred and four by two hundred and forty four meters and covered under five meters of sand. He made the generally accepted assumption that this was

the foundation of the disappeared labyrinth. The young Belgian artist Louis de Cordier doubted this theory, and in the beginning of two thousand and eight he financed and led the Mattahar Exhibition. His thesis proved to be reality. A professional team of geophysicists discovered a vast grid of walls underneath the stone plate. This alleged

foundation might very well be the roof of the still existing labyrinth. The large amount of underground scanning data is analyzed by the geophysicists of the National Research Institute of Astronomy and Geophysics. Soon Polygon Graphics will present a three dimensional visualization based on the geophysic results, which will bring us a step closer to the truth about the Labyrinth of Egypt. So that's the Mattia expedition from two thousand and

eight. They brought in what looked like at that time the best ground penetrating radar equipment. That's when they put a system together on wheels and they push it across the surface of the snut of the sand, and they get back and reading, and then they compile it it all into a page and you can see various high and low spots, and so forth and so on. We'll hear from Mark today on exactly what was discovered. I want to mention

this before we get to the interview. I have found most of the photographs and graphs from Mark's article and they will be placed on the Earth Ancient's Facebook page, which automatically goes to the Earth Ancient's website and then you can find it under Facebook feed there if you're not a fan of social media. So so lots to cover today, and the program is Egypt's Forgotten Labyrinth and my guest today is doctor Mark Carlato. There are so many marvelous buildings, temples,

pyramids and structures in Egypt that there's actually too many to count. And one of the big challenges I've had for a number of years is that the look, the analysis, the descriptions are very one sided or very what I would say myopic, which means that they're from an Egyptological point of view and not really passed through other lenses. And when I say lenses, these are other scientific fields, be it engineering, be it chemistry, physics, whatever.

And when you bring in these other sciences and you start looking at say the pyramids or temples or things like that, you begin to see it from a different point of view. And this has been an this is my opinion, this has been a problem for Egyptologists for a long long time. When they begin to hear from engineers who say, this pyramid could not have been a tomb simply because this, this, and this, this temple could not have been built at this time because of this, this and this, So

long story short, My guest today is doctor Mark Carlotto. We've had Mark on quite a few times, and I love having Mark on the program because I love to hear what he has to say. He usually says some great stuff. But if you don't know who Mark Carlotto is used an aerospace engineer

with thirty years of experience. But more importantly, Mark is a satellite imagery remote sensing expert, and what that means is that he can tell what the hell is coming off these satellites when they're imaging various buildings from miles above the Earsatmos. And this is opening up this research that he's doing in others is

opening up a whole different narrative about these ancient buildings. And Mark has written an article on his excellent Before Atlantis website on this labyrinth that we've talked about in the past. It's called the Labyrinth, the Colossi and the Lake New evidence of advanced prehistoric civilizations in the Fayum, and this labyrinth has been discussed for centuries probably and we're going to bring Mark on in a second, but I just want to mention that in Night in twenty fifteen, I had doctor

Carmen Bolter on the program. She had produced, written, produced and developed this series called The Pyramid Code. And within that program she mentioned the labyrinth and we'll talk a little bit about that, but we never got beyond that small mention until now. And this is important. This is a very important labyrinth and it's been discussed, like I said, for centuries. And Mark Carlotto, it's great to see you. Thanks for joining me today on Earth

Ages. How you been nice to see a clip. It's been a while. That's a long winded introduction for you, but like I said, it's great to have you on the program. Let's start by asking what was what's the interest? I mean, you know about Egypt. I mean there's pyramids, there's these wonderful temples. What was the interest? What did you How

did you fall into this research on this labyrinth? Well, clip, as you know, I'm still I'm still gainfully employed, and I was actually looking for some data for a project that we're doing on something called change detection, where you take satellite images and you compare them and you automatically find changes. And I thought, you know, let me just let me go to let me, let me just go to some interesting places that I you know,

that I find interesting. You know, like on Google Earth, you can get an image anywhere practically, And for some reason, I thought, ah, let me go, let me go to Hawara because we were I were a member of a sort of an informal archaeology group, and we've been talking about it often on the last couple of months, and I thought to myself,

do you I wonder if there's any any SAR imagery over Houara. Yeah, And it turned out that there was, And it actually turned out the imagery wasn't suitable for my project, but I saw something in it that I didn't expect, and uh, you know so much just serendipity in this, in this business, in this trade, in this uh whatever it is that we're doing this endeavor, this quest, and uh so I just pursued it and one thing to another, and so here we are. That's a that's

an interesting answer, but I appreciate it now real quickly. When we talk about SAR, I discovered that geologists use it for piercing volcanic rock to discern the volatility of I guess it's you'd consider it the the the runoff, uh, the lava flow, and I guess it's the use it for early warning. But how did you discover that they were using it? It's just something that the USGS, you know, you know, the United States Theological Survey

Team annually does is just scan huge portions of the planet. And you picked it up here or what well? I mean, Synthetic aperture radar has been around for decades, but I don't know. I don't have an exhaustive knowledge, but I know the European Space Agency has this thing called the Copernicus Initiative, and they have Sentinel one, which is a SAR satellite and it flies over and it collects data periodically over an area. So this is really good

for doing for doing change attection you're talking about volcanoes. What you can do with SAR is you can do something called interferometric star which is compared to images taken from exactly the same location. And when you do that, you can detect changes that are very very subtle, like changes in lava flows and things like that that you were that you that you were mentioning. So it has you know, great interest to the geological community for that and you know,

for other reasons as well. Okay, so you had been doing some research on this labyrinth and you found these these SARS scans. Let's go back a little early. What do we know about this, uh, this labyrinth. We know that the her story and the Greek historian Herodotus talk a great deal about it. So let's talk about the school back a little bit. And what does he say about this site. Well, he seems to be the primary source that others reference. Others may have seen it as well, but

he's the best documented and it's the most detailed description. As you know, we we learned nothing from the Egyptians about the site. There was no record, no mention of this otherwise. So it was in the you know, in Herotis Herodotus's history that he writes about it. And uh, you know, I in the article on on before Atlantis, on the on the labyrinth

and the Colossi in the lake. You know, I have I pull all the sort of original Herodicis quotes and he you know, talks about this this feature that was you know, relatively intact in the fifth century b c. That he was quite impressed by. And he had seen a lot of ancient wonders in Egypt and other parts of the world, and he was, you know, clearly impressed by it. And he talks about not only what we you know, what we see the ruins at the surface, but something that

was below ground. And he was denied access to that the Egyptian priests would not let him in. But there was something there and and so that was you know, really the beginning of the of the myth of of not only the labyrinth, but this underground portion that may still be there, perhaps someone intact. So this is this is where it all began. And it's been a lot of a lot of speculation really about it, I would say,

until I mean it. It was. It was Flinder's Petrie and and Lepsius and others that were in the area that like eighteen hundreds in early nineteen hundreds with the first excavations and finding finding the ruins of of of something that had been you know, clearly taken apart in and repurposed like you know, like the Egyptians and others often do you you know, the materials are scarce and expensive and you reuse them. Right. One of the areas that I would

like to get your impression on is the age of this site. Now I've seen a few videos of the Hawara Pyramid. Yeah, it's mud brick. And what's really weird is when you look at it, the foundation is megalithic stone. So when you're saying that it was perhaps enhanced or other groups, maybe Early Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, Late Kingdom, or somebody was in there modifying it, it sure looks like that. So talk a little bit about the age and the modifications. Well, yeah, I mean the pyramid

of i'm an nhead, the third i'm an endhead being mud. We're clearly uh inferior construction, later construction than what had come before that. And so you have not only the pyramid, but you have the funerary complex mortuary complex below it, and you know, there's been elements of that that have been excavated, and you know, I've seen a number of films online and it's you know, the site is in the state of you know, advanced decay.

There really hasn't been much done to preserve it. There's a lot of concern about that, particularly to the south and closer to the canal for reasons that you know, we can maybe get into later having to do the water. But yeah, I mean, you know, here's another example. How many times have we seen this where you have inferior construction built over something that's

much more sophisticated in terms of materials, workmanship, and so forth. And that's what we have that took place and an end had the third was I believe it was that like twelfth Dynasty. I can't I'm not really, I don't remember. I don't remember. It's much. Yeah. So when you use that pyramid as a measuring tool and the current scans of what we think is the labyrinth, what do we think for an original date of construction? Would we say, you actually write about this, but I want you to

tell me a little more about it. Would this be pre Ice age, would it be a few thousand years before? Would it be prior to the Dynastics? What what is your feeling on the antiquity of this place? Well, first of all, I don't think the labyrinth has anything to do with the pyramid. Okay, I don't think it has anything to do with the mortuary complex. I don't think it's part of it. So I think there's

at least three things there. There's a pyramid of the mortuary complex, labyrinth, and there may be even there also appear to be structure structures to the north. Now, don't I don't. I'd like to defer discussion on how old I think it is, because this is going to tie into the before Atlantis narrative, which is, you know, my primary research interest. But it's not, you know, it's not the hammer of that makes everything look like a nail, you know, I mean, it is what it is.

I have a theory about previous civilizations and poll shifts that has really nothing to do with this paper. However, it provides a context at the end for interpreting some of the results, and the results have to do with how these things are aligned. And let me just say this for now that the alignment of the labyrinth, or what appears to be what I detected and appears

to be a geometrical structure of the size Blenders Peatree talks about. It is oriented in a different direction than the pyramid and the mortuary complex to the north, which tells me that it's completely independent, and I believe it's far more ancient because it's by virtual of the fact that's also buried and buried quite deeply, at least the underground part. Let's talk about Flinder's Petrie, because he writes a great deal about this, and I didn't know that the pyramid and

the mortuary facility is not part of it. I thought it was all kind of interconnected. Did Petrie make that distinction or how did how did you come to that conclusion? Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know. I was trying to piece it together, trying to sort of read in between the lines. You know. He he excavated, excavated stuff that was at the

surface. He found, he found artifacts, you know, a lot of a lot of debris, not enough to reconstruct much in the way of foundations or a ground plan, although he did get a you know, some general a sense of the scale of the object, at least the north south dimension, and uh, you know, and and based on that, you know, I came up with an estimate of what I thought the area was, you know, and you know, it was the earliest and probably you know,

the best survey has you know, quite a few illustrations in his book. I forget the title of it. One of as many books. That's all. It's all available open source now. You can download all this stuff and read it for free, right and there's links on the website to that. But yeah, I mean that was the primary source that that I used to sort of establish the fact that that he found something there and he determined

an approximate size. And the reason I felt that was important is that the other the other work that you know, we've been talking about, the Matama and the and the Bolt and Bolter, Yeah, Carmen Bolter, Carmen Bolter, that was based on just sort of doing you know, doing some sensing, or in the case of the Matama, was doing you know, doing a sort of ground based surveys. So it's it's sort of like sort of like the soda straw, You're looking very close up at something that may be

you know, much much larger. So I was kind of interested. It's kind of a long winded answer, but I was kind of interested in with the sort of synoptic view, can we get sort of a can we can we get some evidence that says, yeah, okay, here it is right here, rather than you have a little bit of that you know here in this you know, that we're seeing through the sensor here or here or here.

So I was really interested kind of in the scope, the scale of it and how that compared to what Petrie found and what I and what I found was very consistent with what he was, very consistent with his survey. Okay, describe the what you believe what Petrie believed was the entire structure of this labyrinth, because what I didn't realize is that it's on the surface, there's a portion on the surface, and then somehow you enter the labyrinth and

there's multiple levels. Apparently, isn't that what what was the thinking? Well, I mean that that some of these scans seem to show multiple levels. But again, uh, you know, we can get into it maybe a little bit later. How they did the scan, with the technology they used, you know, the methods, none of that was published, so who really knows. But let's let's just you know, sticking with what Petrie found.

He you know, he he he walked through and above the ground structure, and he talks about it, all these rooms and chambers, and it was it was a massive in scale, and there was this underground portion of it as as well. And I mean, I'm sorry that was herodoonous. What Patrion talks about is discovering these ruins and believing that he was dealing with the foundation of a structure. Okay, so he thought he was dealing with

the foundation of the labyrinth. What then became evident subsequently that was the possibility that what he found was not necessarily the foundation of the labyrinth, but it could have been the roof of something that remained, that still existed underground. So we're a multi layered structure. That wouldn't be the foundation, that would just be what that was built on, which was, you know, a structure below that. And we actually find that, you know, levels of

building building, buildings over buildings over the buildings. We find that in places such as Rome, you know, the the Ballbeck is another example. There's like nine layers or seven seven layers of construction, you know, the Western Wall, and you find this throughout the world. And so this idea of building over is not is not revolutionary, so it's it's like a lot of iological things. So this is sort of this is the basis for what I

was looking for. Was like if Peatree surveyed something that was a certain size and that's not the foundation if that's in fact the roof of this structure, that structure underground that could still be there is going to be about a certain area. So what I found was something that was about that area. Okay, and I and to you know, to get a little bit ahead of things. So I want to get a little bit more into the star stuff,

into the remote sensing. What what synthetic aperture radar can do at certain wavelengths is that it can penetrate dry sand, desert sand. They can look arow the surface. So it's called ground penetrating radar, and you can do it from space. You don't have to be you know, dragging a sled. You know, that's how they do it. Now you've seen Oak Island. They're dragging these sleds and they're mapping what's underground. And that's what the

the matama. And I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I apologize if i'm not. But the results of their work were actually we're published and you know again links are those are are provided in the papers in on the website. Yeah, give us a real quick summary of the size, because when I saw your your your article, the thing's huge. It's not like a like a temple, it's like five or six It's like it's like a couple of city blocks square. Right, Yeah, I have I have to I have

to find the exact size. I'm not going to find it. I'm just i was just looking online. But it's uh, it's it's it's enormous. I mean it's so large that you can pick it up from space. Now, if you look at the if you look at the pyramids, these a plateau as large as they are in in this particular SAR sensor Sentinel one, it has a resolution of about five or five or ten meters per pixel, So something's got to be really big to be picked up by it. But

the labyrinth is big enough. There's there's there's there's a lot of pixels. There's uh, there's tens of pixels across and and and widthwise. So it's it's definitely resolvable and it's large. Now Petrie surveyed the site. Did he come back with with the specific numbers or did the satellite actually enhance what he suggested was the size? Well, he he has in his book, he has drawings and he references a scale that was defined in another drawing so putting,

you know, doing a little detective work. I kind of went back and figured it out, Okay, what's this, what's the scale? And his drawing in feet and so I was able to back out what at least what the I think it was the one dimension was because the only showed part part of it. It didn't show a fully you know, a fully intact square enclosure. It was like part of it, and it was you know,

somewhat you know, somewhat stylized. I mean it was you know, they were like, you know, how they drew things back then, they embellished things artistically, So yeah, it was it wasn't it was you know, artist artistic license. And but I mean in terms of the dimensions, I you know, I was able to determine what they were. And two hundred and seventy five thousand square feet, Oh my god. Yeah, if you convert that, well, I don't have it in front of me.

I was trying to think, if that's not like that's like a I was gonna say, that's not a quarter a mile. It's pretty huge. It's like in terms of acres. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's huge. That is that's a monster. Now, I what does Petre say about what he discovered in terms of getting underground. I don't think he was able to get underground, was he No, No, he doesn't talk. I'm not sure. I don't think he says anything about that. I think he just

talks about what he found at the surface. So what does he in the books, in his writings. Does he suggest that what he has on the surface, which what I've seen is heavily eroded, very very decomposed, and very little left. Yeah, of course, even though he lived one hundred years before us, was there more there than what we see today. Has

it been further excavated or pillaged or we just don't know? I mean, judging by some of his I think there's a few photos and his drawings, it seems that what's there today has been It's in many in many ways I think, degraded. Just the desert environment, you know, just sand moving around and covering things up. You know, you can dig a hole and it'll be filled up, you know, after a certain period of time,

and so you know, it's hard to see really much surface detail. In fact, one of the experiments I did was trying to find an image that showed some surface detail and I was able to find one that was a low lower sun angle, one that showed you know, a little bit of relief

there. But it's very very kind of random and chaotic. I mean, you can almost you can see some pattern at the surface, but I think a lot more of it is to the north, and you know, it's it's again, it's not been managed or preserved in any in any way. So I think short answer to your question is, I think it's gone downhill since Petrie's time. Wow, So no one's really cared for it whatsoever.

In the films I've seen, it's it's sort of like they bring people out there just to show them, but it's it's it's not the sort of it's not like it's not one of the big stops on in the in the Egypt because other than the mud brick pyramid, which is kind of boring, is heavily eroded. There's nothing to see. There's really nothing to see. All right, let's talk about this. Actually we're there are things that there you can actually crawl into things, I mean there are things you can crawl into,

and there are things that are filled with water. And that's that's a

concern because uh, lake is that. My concern is that the the labyrinth, which is well anything actually along the canal there, there's a there's a canal that was built there or rebuilt, and the history that's very interesting it was it actually that canal actually and you know there's a there's a waterway that you're familiar with it that actually used to go to the west of the site, well west and during the I don't know, it was like a couple

of thousand years ago. It started anyway, started filling up with silt and was not usable as a canal water. So they decided, the Egyptian government decided to redig a canal, and they couldn't dig it further to the west. They couldn't they didn't want to dig it out for some reason. They didn't want to go further to the west because the train actually drops off. So they decided the only way to do it was actually to put it right

through the middle of the labyrinth. And there's actually some records of the of these excavations and what they found and what do they what do they find like pillars or walls or well, they found the remnants of a they found evidence, and they found evidence of a settlement that had been built like it was like dynastic times that in that era built from the materials sort of repurposing materials that had that were there, presumably having dug into something happening to do it

with the labyrinth, and I think it was the underground portion and taking some of that and just you know, use using stones and whatever as as needed. And this was right, This is right where that canal cuts through. And what just makes me wonder more than anything is why no one has started from the canal. And if you take it, if you see a picture of it, the canal is well below ground level, twenty or thirty people

low ground level at least. I think. Also it's an underground canal that they cut in with cement and they put some men in or no, no, no, no, it's all. No, it's not. And this is where having having some photos to talk about would be so much easier.

Anyway, there's a photo in the I think it's in the article, one of the articles, one of the papers, and it shows the canal and you can see that how it cuts through the landscape with the area of the labyrinth to the right of it, and it's it's like twenty or thirty people low ground level. So what I wonder is if you just started at the level of the canal and started just excavating to the east, you would run

right into the labyrinth. It's it's going to be right there. And a concern is that because it's so close to the canal, that it's going to be flooded. At least the lower courses. Uh, there are multiple levels would be flooded, and that would be a concern. Like with the pyramid to the north and its foundations, that the water is, you know, eating away at the at the granite slowly, but it is and it's in a state of degradation. That's another discussion. Why the authorities don't jump on

that and consider it. Uh, that's we'll talk about that towards the end. There's a there's a lot of threads here clipped and yeah, and preservation isn't isn't my thing? Again? My thing was looking at this star image and saying to myself, what the heck is that? I mean, I immediately saw this thing and it was about where herodotus that it would be. But it didn't match either his drawing exactly in terms of the the the orientation. It didn't match any of the any of the earlier work that we talked

about. It was close, but it didn't correlate exactly, but it was it was there, and so I wrote the initial paper. I did initial analysis, I posted it as a working paper. I summarized it, which is the the the post on Before Atlantis, and I started talking to people about it, and people had some ideas what I should do next, and I did them, and I sort of led to a follow follow up paper

that I also have published as a working paper. The links to it is also on on the Before Atlantis web page, and it gets into much more detail into the methods I used. So how you know exactly the images I used, the methods I used, every thing step by step. What I did is published, and that's why I say it's really the first verifiable evidence

of this because I'm not claiming any proprietary magic technology. You know, I haven't done this research under the sponsorship of the of and subject to the approval of the Egyptian government or anyone else. It's totally independent, so I can publish this. You know. What happened previously was results were published and the group Mazuma Expedition. They were actually denied further permits to do any any additional work in Egypt. I find that so strange. So the Mataja Exhibition expedition

did seek approval by the Antiquities Department, Is that your suggesting? So they were they it was a multidisciplinary effort out of Ghent University. I think it's said, is that in Belgium or the Netherlands, I'm not sure. Yeah, two thousand and eight is when they did this, right, let's talk about what they found good well, and their research actually was published and they did different types of surveys using using electrical resistivity and ground penetrating, you know,

different ways of looking below the surface. And actually they have a published

paper and they have maps of what they found. But I kind of, you know, sort of referred to it earlier as like a soda straw, because something that's two hundred and seventy five thousand square feet, if you're looking at it, you know, pulling something that's a few feet in you know, you know, by by a few feet, You're you're mapping things at a very high resolution, but it's sort of like you're seeing the trees, but are missing the forest and so you know that, and they were able

to verify and there in their work that there appeared to be vertical structures that could be walls, suggest seeing that there were rooms or caverns below ground. So there was in other words, they detected evidence of something below ground that was structured that could be architectural not not geological. And uh and and you know so that those that work was was was peer reviewed, it was published,

but evidently it was not done. They didn't follow all the the proper procedures and they you know, they got in trouble with the with the Egyptian authorities. Yeah, this is what's happening with a lot of scientists is that they're going beyond. They're not waiting for approval. They're they're getting their work done with satellites and this saying, you know, can't be bothered because they they it's problematic. You're dealing with antiquated society. Yeah, and clippers and

there's nothing sensational about it. It's like, you know, these are these are sensing techniques. It's like you take a picture the camera, you know, cameras don't lie, Yeah, and they show you what you know, what's there, and these things show you what's what's there, So it's like it's not like anyone's making it up or spinning some kind of yarn and they have some some agenda and they're they're they're making up all of the data.

It's you can go and you can actually get you know, the data that I used, and there's there's actually quite a bit more out there you can download and it takes you need some special tools to do it, but it's available and it's easily verified. And you know, why anyone would object to this is beyond me. Without getting into personalities, it looks to me that the Egyptological community in Egypt, the Antiquities department, has a inferiority complex.

Sahi Oast just did a Netflix program and he basically says that if it's not discovered by Egyptians, then it's not we don't want to deal with it, and this is what's happening. They're kind of pushing away. Well, and I kind of understand what he's saying, because most of the discoveries have been made by the big ones have been made by other countries, and before a few, you know, less than one hundred years ago, Egypt was was

was run by nomads. There was no government there and so they're trying to catch up. And this is what I see. I see a problem before politics. Yeah, it's politics, but there's also I'm serious, it's an inferiority complex. We're not good enough, so we're only going to do it. And Zahi Juass is the spokesman, and this is somebody who should not be speaking for ancient Egypt. Let's talk more about the Metama expedition. They

used very low frequency electromagnetics surveys. You have a and by the way that those of you listening, there will be a gallery from Mars that I'm going to post on the Facebook page that has all these images for you to look

at. You can see all these different scans in the different programs. Let's get into the spaceport radar imaging with the Sentinel one and I guess it's under the Compernicus initiative that they launched five different missions and within that, I think you're saying that they scanned the area that we are considering the labyrinth number of times. Yeah, I think the revisit rate is like fourteen days or something

like that. So the that's for the star and you know, again they have but they have different different satellites that visible band that that you know, image at you know some I think some other frequency, some other rate. But it's pretty you know, it's pretty regular. And this is know, this is something that I don't know if you've heard of Lansat Lancet, Oh, yeah, it's around for years. Yeah, it's one of the first

remote sense commercial remote sensing satellites. You know, they have a you know, they their orbits are designed to fly over you know, at the same local time, so it's controlled sun angle and and and you know, they so you know, commercial remote sensing using optical imagery multi spectral is is very well known and SAR was because the satellite is more expensive. They they didn't really they haven't become commercially viable until more, you know, more recently.

I mean, if they've been around for I think a couple of decades now, but you know, Lansie goes back to the seventies I think. But yeah, these these satellites fly over at a pretty you know, pretty regularly.

So and the reason they do that is for you know, you know, I talked about change detection monitoring changes like you know, like in with with forest fires, for example, with SAR, SAR can see through smoke, so you can and you can assess what's going on even you know, under dense cloud cover, smoke, you know, what have you It sees through that. And with even well, depending on the wavelength, and these are you know, these are basically radio waves, so changing the wavelength,

going to a little longer wavelength that actually penetrates into the ground. And that's the modality that you know is exploited in what's called ground penetrating radar. And that's that's what I did. That's what I That's what I did here. So talk about the sentinel imagery that you publish, because you have one image that is next to this canal. Yeah that if I kind of squint my eyes, I can see a little it looks like structural walls here and there.

And then you have another one that's a little smaller where it's you're outlining with with squares what you believe could have been a big area that may be the laborage. So talk a little little bit about the images. Okay, good, we're on the same we're on the same page, so to speak. So yeah, the larger one shows the sentinel SAR next to basically the you know, the ground image, the Google Earth image, which is which

is from another satellite. It's actually from a a you know, it's a visible band Worldview or some other satellite, and it shows you know how how who are looks you know, if you were to look down to humanize and with the SAR is you know how it looks like to if you have radio frequency eyes, so to speak. Anyway, so the star, it's a

it's a false color. So I take two bands, this something called v H which is vertically transmitted and horizontally polarized received radiation in BB which is vertically sent and vertically polarized received. And polarization is basically the sort of direction that the electromagnetic wave sort of wiggles around in. So it's sent out vertically, you know, it's up down, and then the vv is kind of what you get back in the same direction, and the VH is what you get

back in the horizontal direction, and it changes the polarization. Certain things will change the polarization, like surface rough surfaces, certain types of corner reflectors, and I what I actually show, you know, in the below I annotate a couple of features. One is A is a sort of a circular blob, and that's actually a return from a from a electrical transmission tower that goes through the area, so that you know, star is really good to pick

on up stuff like that because it's made out of metal. So that's that's one feature that's sort of like a reference point. And then B and C that I show are actually seem to be rectilinear sort of structures that are correspond to the area that roughly Flinders Petrie talks about B. And then maybe another

area is similar to it below that. And then there's an area that I labeled D, which also seems to have the same kind of texture and also appears to be sort of geometrical, not not as much, but it's on

the other side of the canal. And and you know, so the hypothesis is that when they built this, when they rebuilt this canal back, I forget exactly the data that they you know, they cut through the labyrinth and they basically you know, used you know, it was sort of split in half at that point, and so they've actually already you know, dissected it, if you will, and if you were to go either left or right, east or west, you might actually encounter the structure that seems evident to

me from from the imagery here. This is what's so bothersome for me is that if they had a sense that there was an underground structure, why would they put the canal there. It's destroying And I think you said it was placed thirty feet as deep as thirty feet, so it may and you just let us know that they found evidence of of of of stones and structures and other remnants of a building in there, right, Well, it was done

at a time when so okay, So the Fiume is this area. It's geologically it's thought that that Lake Maris, which is in the center of it, was once a much larger paleo lake that existed at the time, goes back to the time of the Ice Age, and that there was some ancient connection between it and the Nile River. But at some point a canal was actually built, and that canal is to the south of Perrara. What they

what what I believe Amanaan had had started. I think he was the first was to develop the northeastern part of the of the Fiom and in order to do that, he needed to get water there. So this other canal was dug, but it originally went around Herrara and went to the north, so it kind of went around what would have been the guestimate of where the labyrinth was. But what happened subsequently is that it filled with silt and it had to be rebuilt diverted, and the only option was to put it through the

area of the labyrinth. Whether or not they they knew what was there at the time is you know, who knows, But clearly they had a need to keep you know, because people needed water and you know, there were farms and settlements to the north and they needed the water. So that was

that that had priority. We're going to take a short commercial break and give our sponsors a chance to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, doctor Mark Carlotto, discuss seeing the Unknown Labyrinth of Egypt. We'll be right back. I guess today is doctor Mark Carlato, who is an image specialist, and Mark has followed up on the writings of Herodotus, a Greek historian, and later the excavations carried out by Flanders Petrie, who

was considered the father of Egyptology in the eighteen hundreds. What Mark has come up with is evidence for an underground labyrinth that is tens of thousands of years old. These photographs, these images are fascinating. I wonder if if you had a piece of technology, or maybe you had to write a software application for it, would there be a way to see more in depth quality of

these of these scans that you're showing from the Sentinel. Yeah, so okay, So so Sentinel is it was is that's one radar, and that's that's called full polarization, which it sends vertical and horizontal and receives both vertical and horizontal. And you can figure out you can so you can do all four, and from doing all four you can actually begin to tell stuff about the

surface, physical properties of the surface. Okay, And that's what's really cool about Star is that with full polar metric Star you can back up physical properties of the surface. That's not just a picture. But I just had access to the V, V and v H, not all all four. Another another another sensor I I found. It was called after I wrote this article in the paper, and it did a more detailed paper and the link to

that is on the website. Okay, And what I what I what I was able to find was a a second uh source of star imagery, which is the Japanese a los pal palsar, which is a it's it's it's L band, which is which is the same band. See star star has C band, L band uh x band uh and that refers to the wavelength. So the sentinel was C band and C band can doesn't penetrate that far, but L band can actually penetrate further into the surface. And I thought,

oh, this is great. So now I have two different sources of information and I and I correlated, and I registered them and I put them together. And that's what the second paper does. And if you scroll down to the pictures, all the all the illustrations that are at the end, there's some information that's repeated from the earlier paper. But what I get much more

into detail into the analysis of the labyrinth. Well, it so figure it's figure nine and it's so it's the false color image of the C band star

which is BB and bh polarization. That's the sentinel, and then the alice palsar L band star which is hh and HV so two different polarizations and then I put actually put them together using a data fusion technique based on something called principal components analysis, and you can you can see clearly the structure standing out at the bottom there, and so what you know, So one question when I was showing this around of people, they said, well can you And

this is what I always tell people. You find something in one image, find find another image to corroborate it. So I did. I not not only is it it's it's it's it's another story image, but it's actually a different at a different wavelength and a different sensor, so that's you know, totally independent, and it doesn't show it as clearly, but it's it's certainly there, and there's information that's correlated because that comes through the principal component's analysis,

which actually does a correlation analysis. And so that was the first thing that I thought, Oh, this is interesting, and you know, like you asked, there's there's many more images out there, and presumably we could we could look at those. It's probably going to show the same thing because I don't think the labyrinth has changed much for thousands of years, unlike an

active volcano. So there's not a whole lot you can probably get with that, But if we had some higher resolutions SAR imagery, it might show more and you know sources that I don't I don't know. I mean you have to distinctly adjust the I want to just say, aperture or the software in the in the satellite so that it penetrates the ground in a certain way to

pick up thing. I mean, it's probably what you're getting most of is a general geological survey rather than anything that's distinct that's passing through deeper levels or looking for walls or yeah, no, clip that's that's I'm glad you asked that question because what people then, you know, said to me is like, Okay, you've detected something here, but how do you know it's not

on the surface, and you know there's a lot of debris there. You know, maybe you're just picking up that that debris that's at the surface. Right. So I thought, okay, let me let me do an a experiment. And this is this is kind of the stuff I do for a living. If you have two different modalities, you have visible light and you

have radio waves of radar, uh, they're they're seeing different things. So if if you're if if if you know, when you look at the visible image, you can see debris, you can see stuff at the surface. So the question is is that what the star is picking up? Well, you can do an experiment where you try to predict what the star should look like based on the visible imagery. It's it's called the predictive analysis or image estimation. And you know, I wrote some papers on this back a few

years ago, and I used this in my day job. So I get paid to do this kind of stuff as opposed to this, I don't get paid to do this. In fact, this is uh, who's a lot of time and money during this research? But hey, is it the application or the the labor. It's a labor of love. Anyway, I digress.

My point is that you can predict what the sar image should look like from the visible and if there's correlated if they're both seeing the same thing, it should the visible image should do a pretty good job of predicting what the star image looks like. And so if you scroll down to figure eleven, and this is getting a little bit in the weeds, but what I do is I say, oh, here's a visible image here's the star image.

Here's what the saramage should look like based on the visible image. And let me subtract the two, the SAR and the predicteds are and what you get out is the stuff that you can't predict, in other words, the stuff that's not correlated, the stuff that's in the SAR that's not in the visible. And my contention is that what's in the SAR that's not in the visible, these uncorrelated hits are the things that are underground, because the visible doesn't

see underground. The star seeds above ground and below ground. So what the shows in red are the areas that have higher backscatter because something is underground. Wow. So this was my attempt based on some preliminary discussions and you know, critiques I had just talking to some people. It's like, yeah, I should try this, and you know, have you looked at this?

And it's like, okay, I spent I did sort of, I circled around, I spent a little bit more time, and I did this and so this is out there and I actually have some people evaluating this work, so we'll see what where it goes. What do you think I mean, we don't hear about labyrinths in Egypt. It's weird that there isn't more interest by the antiquities group to look at this. I think that they're afraid that they might open a can of worms if they dig into that area, which

has been going on for decades. We have the same problem when it comes to the Pyramid, we have the same problem when it comes to the Sphinx. They're still stuck one hundred years in the past and this is their philosophy. But what is your opinion on this labyrinth and why it is not more Willey known by the general public. I mean, this would be a great article for National Geographic. Yeah, this would be something that the Smithsonian would

would benefit by having. God, the interest would be huge, you would think, right, I think, Uh, you know, a couple of reasons that we've touched on. You go there and you you know, I've seen I haven't been there physically, but I've seen a lot of videos and there's really not much to see, right. Yeah, it's not a tourist visit at all. And it's not it's not on the tourist it's not on the on the tour routes. It's you know, it's it's west of the

Nile By. I don't know what is it fifty kilometers, I don't know, something like that. So I mean, you're not you know, the cruise ship. I took a you know, I took a cruise and you're stopping all these sides. It was great, you're not going. You're not going to see the labyrinth on that cruise. Yeah, it's not in the middle. It's kind of out in the middle. It's south of Cairo By. I don't know. It looks like ten miles, but I could be wrong. Yeah, it's not a big stop. So you're saying that because

it's not a visible place. It hasn't been excavated. Of course, it's a very poor country. They don't have the funds that It's just a nice thought that Herodotus published, that Peachri published extensively, that you've picked up on and that others have picked up on. But the truth of the matter is there's no way that we know if it's physically visible anymore, because it's ancient

and we don't know how to hell the access it. Dewey, Well, you know, I think there's a mystery there, and I think clearly there's something smoldering. You know, it's like we you know, we've talked about the previous expeditions and groups, and you know this is you know, this is just I'm alone wolf on this one. Because you can do a lot with satellite imagery, but it's got to be anything. This could actually be

corroborated very specifically. Taking this result, you could, if you had the means and the funding, you could go there and based on this, I can tell you where the edges are. I can say, okay, if you poke around, if you go here, you can hit the labyrinth. If you go here, it's the outside the bound So we can start to

corroborate it based on ground penetrating. You know these sleds that they pull around, so you don't have to cover the whole two hundred and seventy five, which actually it's more than two seventy five, because that's only part of the area under below south of the pyramid, the mud pyramid, it's probably twice that, you know, five hundred thousand square feet. It's a lot of

area. So this this really gives you the ability to sort of focus in on where the key areas are and if you could corroborate that yes there's something there. You dig in from from the canal. The canal is already down, you know, twenty or thirty feet, so all you have to do is sort of dig ino, you know, dig to the eastern to the

west. And because I believe this is you know, parts of the of the labyrinth on either side and again references to what the original you know, when when the canal is built, people you know, people have done histories on the waterways in this part of the world. You know, people right about anything and everything, and so you just have to dig and you find you know, what's known about this area and you realize, ah, this this this canal was not original. This did not originally go through the area

is built later on. And so by dissecting this feature, this labyrinth, it it actually made both The bad news is that it's you know, the water tables being higher now because of this, it could be causing you know, degradation. But it all so it could be a way in. Yeah, by cutting it in half, it's going to be easier to get in rather than having to dig down. You can come in at it from the

side without maybe spending a lot of money. And again using this as sort of a predictive tool to say, go here, go here, go there. You're you're not walking around in the dark. You can you can be very focused about it. So let me ask you a questions that I want to move on to the colossa here in a second. But did Petrie excavate

enough sand to get to the roof of the labyrinth? Or was his speculation that the surface connected with the original was the first layer a ground layer, and then from the surface you access the labyrinth from the middle, from the sides or whatever? Did he speculate Did he come up with any ideas? No, No, this was purely I think just you know, practically, you know, he he documented what he saw, Yeah, and you know that was that. And then that's what's so great about his work is that

his measurements are so precise and so meticulous. You know, in regards to the pyramids, you know the alignments and so forth. Here it's a little different what he did. But you know, I don't think, you know, I don't think he was speculating on underground and you know, I think who knows. I mean, I you have to read it in between the lines to figure that out. Okay, Uh, there's a lot to still

obviously look at. Somebody needs to throw a few million bucks there. This is not a solution light Ar will deal with, because light Ar is not going to help at all, right right, I think I think it's one of these things where you you're you're smart to pick a corner of the labyrinth and dig down one specific area and see what you find. See and again this this let me point out if it's not obvious, this imagery has been registered to Google Earth, which you know I use for everything. Yeah,

I think I use Google Google Earth more than my refrigerator. I mean it's yeah, Well, why are you saying that, because you're you would be concerned that you would be attacked by the Antiquities Department for for oh no, satellite imagery. No, No. What I'm saying is that once you get it registered to Google Earth, it's a it's a geographic base, so you

have latitude and longitude. I hear you. And I've actually set this imagery out for evaluation and I provided all this and I haven't heard back, and we'll see where it goes. And I don't want to talk about I don't want to mention who's looking at it because it's it's in process. But you know, if if you're looking at a pixel here versus here in Google Earth, if you just move the curse and it gives you a latitude and longitude. So I mean there's gonna be some error. Of course, it's not

for sise, but it's going to get your clothes. So you take your GPS on the ground and you walk to that spot. So it's it's telling you literally where to look. So it's not that I'm going to get into trouble. Okay. And so you're not giving us names because of you don't want to identify the players, but you're saying there's interest, h a private industry interest of some kind or universe university is looking at some of the results.

Well that's that's so amazing. Okay. Hey, let's let's uh uh For those of you listening, this is doctor Mark Carlotto I'm speaking with, and we're talking about this uh Hawara labyrinth in Egypt that has confounded people since Herodotus wrote about it. And here we have the father of Egyptology, Flinders Petrie, spending a great deal at time. It looks like he spent months there, perhaps years there surveying and excavating as much as he could, with

probably the hopes. Do you believe reading his paper that he had a hope to find the entrance way underneath the surface. No, I don't. I don't think so. I think it was I think it was the past. You know, he he was there, and he he was there a couple of different times. And uh, you know, that wasn't the only thing he surveyed in the area. The other thing I read about in the in the paper is the colossi, the what are called the pedestals of Biomo.

She had, you know, he had something to say about that which actually conflicts, I think quite a bit with what Herodotus said. So I think, you know, Petrie's description, what Petris Petrie excavated and what Herodus is described are fairly consistent. I think in summary, Petrie excavated the above above grind on portion and thought that he hit you know, he's dealing with a foundation, whereas it's possible that instead he was actually dealing with the roof of

a structure below ground that's still intact. He didn't, you know, that wasn't something that was said. He pursued. That's something that's that's a hypothesis that actually has been explored further. You know now that we have ground penetrating radar and other technologies in these other more recent expeditions that we talked about, So there's a lot of interest in that now. So this is sort of

the latest chapter. And yeah, I think you know one that we we should be able to if there's if there's desire, and if politically it can be worked out. The technology certainly can can give us an answer. It's not beyond the realm of the knowable. We can we can, we can figure this out. Yeah, it's it's the problem. The problem is you have a government that doesn't want you to find out you're right. It might it might. It might actually be easier to drain a Locke to find on

the lock Nest monster than to the egypt The Egyptian I don't know. I don't know, I don't know anything about that. It's it's confounding. We deal with the same issue in Mexico when it comes to excavations of sites these it's here we are, this Western culture. We have all this technology, and we're limited in what we can apply simply because landowner owners current landowners are not receptive to that kind of what they believe is an invasion of their privacy.

So yeah, it's a challenge. Hey, let's talk about these pedestals of its Bayimu and it's Herodotus goes on to describe what he saw north of the labyrinth, and let's talk about that, because according to this illustration that you found, there were pretty good sized megalithic statues. It looks like you

call them colossi. Well so so so Herodotus talks about these these pyramids, these pyramids in the middle of a lake, and on the top of these pyramids are these are these enormous figures And so you got that description, and he was he was impressed by what he saw there. He was impressed by what he saw at the labyrinth. And clearly the scale of the labyrinth based on what Petrie excavated. And you know what we found in the in the

star data is it's it's there's something big there. There's something big that's still there, and there was Herodotus probably saw something, you know, large and very impressive. Uh at Howara, what did he see? Uh? North of there at Bayamu seems equally you know, incredible by his description. Yet when Petrie goes there, he finds something that's less than remarkable. And that's

you know, those are the drawings that we see. I looked at them from from his book mainly just to give the the dimensions they're you know, they're fairly they're fairly modest structures. And let me thus three, these pyramids are one hundred fathoms high, and one hundred fathoms equal a furlong of six hundred feet, So you know, we're talking about something that's six hundred feet,

let's say, and what p Tree draws something that's thirty feet. So you know, my point is that there's there's you know, discrepancy of a factor of two, Okay, not a big deal, but an order of magnitude, a factor of ten or more. It's like, wait, why is there such a huge difference between what Petrie found there and what hera Autus wrote about. And my my conjecture, I don't really have any evidence to back it up, is that that, you know, it was sort of

the similar thing that we see in other places. There was actually at one time something grand there, but it was over time dismantled as the lake you know, as the lake level fell, as it continued to do as if I AM dried up and it needed more water for irrigation and crops and so forth, material was was reused and repurposed like we find everywhere else. And so what you know Petrie found is just you know, really a faint whisper of you know, what existed once before. But where do you go with

that? I mean, as this, I don't I don't know how to follow that up. That's why it's just sort of more conjectural than anything else. But you know, it's interesting because you have Petries account, and Pat's account of the labyrinth is being you know, fairly consistent at least concerning the above ground part. But then the you know, the these colosside, the pedestals, pedestals are it's like, wait, they seem to be describing two

different things. So it sort of makes Money's the water a little bit and trying to understand you know, what historically we know and perhaps what we can discover. Maybe we can also use sensing technology to see if as anything in that area that shows up you know, below ground, although you know it sort actually see an alband actually work in dry desert sands. So if you're dealing with land that's irrigated with water, it doesn't see it's it's it's opaque.

Interesting, you can't see through water. This has been fun talking to you as we conclude. What is your feeling about this area? I mean, I am not have not been there, and it looks like it could be farming the area. And this is the issue we had whenever we're dealing with ancient structures. This site perhaps is you know, tens of thousand, thands of years old and has had multiple generations of cultures prior to the dynastics, perhaps settling, resettling, resettling, moving off and on. But I

think you've made an important contribution to this area. I just don't know fay at all. Is it is it been converted to because fames where these places are, this labyrinth and these calasti. Is there is this farming land? Now? Is that what the youre look like? Yeah? Yeah, so that's why this you know, that's why these canals they bring in water from the Nile Okay, And that's why you know, I think this canal was dug through the labyrinth. It was for water, it was for people to

live, you know, survive economics. Uh so it had a plausible reason for having been done. Again, the history is interesting and it's in the paper I go. I found a number of interesting sources that talk about how kind of how the landscape changed. But you know, I wanted to kind of circle back because you asked me, you're talking about, you know, certain get into the subject dating things and how all these things might be.

We talked about it in the outset, and you know, I think we are our sense, our intuition is anything that's deep is going to be old, and deeper it is the older is going to be And you know, dating things ad buyased by the stratigraphic analysis is you know, that's used standard tool in archaeology. But what I discovered, and this is what sort of

was totally unexpected. It was sort of unexpected to find the labyrinth and then finding that the labyrinth was actually aligned to one of the ancient polls in before Atlantis actually gives gives me a date. I'm very quiet, I'm waiting for you to bit it out. You want to know the date, Yes, between seventy five, one thousand and one hundred and thirty thousand years old. So that would be the last poll, wouldn't it so? Okay, So

in before Atlantis, I talked about four previous poles. Okay, the one before this one was the Hudson Bay Pole, and that was the pole of the ice age. At that time, Western Antarctica was ice free. At that time, Siberia was ice free, and the mammoths lived in a temperate climate in northern Siberia. And I can go on and on because every time the poll ship the climate changes. Before Hudson Bay was the Norwegian Sea and that was fifty thousand years ago, forty five, fifty thousand years ago.

And before that was Greenland Pole. And things that are aligned to the Greenland Pole include Ballbeck, the oldest foundations, the oldest foundations in Jerusalem at Western Wall, the the Parthenon, basically the plan, the street land of Mexico City, which is all centered around Templo Mayr that that complex. Oh it goes that far back. Okay, So these are these are This is an

alignment you find throughout the world. Also, Pulapuku all point to the same pole, and this is the same pole that the Labyrinth appears to be aligned to. I'm sorry, seventy five thousand to one hundred and twenty three thousand. You said one hundred and thirty, one hundred and thirty. I give her take a few thousand. We're almost at our time here. Let's talk

about that for a minute. Have you corresponded with build Reps at all on his analysis of antiquity and North Pole alignments, because he's got he's got a graphic and I can't remember. I haven't had him on for over a year, but I mean he goes way back, he goes the first or the fifth shift is four hundred thousand years, and then he comes down and then he comes down to where you are, and I can't remember the numbers.

Yeah, I haven't talked. I haven't talked to him, but you know what he shows is is that how the poles, as the pole moves and it for him, the pole is moving sort of in a continuous fashion. And over time as the poll shifted, the you know, the sites you know were aligned and the directions changed. What's different is in before Atlantis. This this hypothesis is based on four catastrophic sudden shifts of the polestrophic Okay, and ended a previous age started a New Age, if you will, the

new North Pole. And also it assumes that sites are not just aligned cardinally, but also you know, as we do today, we align things to the Moon and the Sun. We have lunar temples, we have places like don't Edge that you know have solar alignments and things like that. And my hypothesis is that this has been a practice throughout history on this planet, and during previous ages when the poll was in different positions, all these alignment directions

to the Sun and Moon were different in terms of geographical directions. And so I've found, you know, in Beyond Atlantis, I have over five hundred sites that I talk about in that book. It's it's like that thick and and no one is buying it because it's expensive. Amazon has raised prices and they're just killing me. And but that, I mean, there's the evidence

is in. There's just a huge amount of evidence. And what's you know, what's interesting is that this, uh, this work has been confirmed independently by another an author and researcher by the name of Mark Gaffney. I think Mark has been I think you've talked to Mark. He's done analysis, he's looked at climate data, sort of what happened was doing back in the fifties, but using more modern data sources and methods and has found just keeps finding

more and more climate data to support this chronology of pull shifts. And in fact it's his data that I've used to actually time when these pole, when these poles occurred, when they over what periods they were different at different times, because it's it's actually correlated with climate changes in different parts of the world based on you know, using different types of dating techniques for you know,

for fossil remains of mammals and so forth, and establishing the aids. You know, it's like in Great Britain they have you know, they have but fossil remains of of potamus, you know, which is a subtropical mammal. There's no way it could exist there today. It's only if it was at a different latitude. And it's you know, basically predicted by and confirmed by

this by this model. But I mean, I know that's not what we're talking about here, And that's why, you know, I don't want to get I don't like to get to sort of spun up over that, because I think these are all sort of independent things and a lot of stuff that I've been putting up doing research on is really completely different questions. I don't

go after them looking for more corroboration for people Atlantis. But what I find here and with the Labyrinth is that it's pointing to one of the ancient polls. It's like, you know, that's it was totally unexpected. So and it turns out it's a lot of stuff in the volume that is aligned towards ancient whole directions. So it suggests that civilization in this part of the world

is vastly more ancient than we think. Yeah, I mean, I have an intuition regarding these ages, and I'm not a scientist, but I'm really fascinated that these numbers that you and Bill Refs get. I'm just waiting for other collaboration to come in and again proving this data, which will completely change our science. And this is the whole problem that we're dealing with right now.

We're dealing with Egyptologists archaeologists who are using seeing fundamentals that are outdated, and they are considering anything that's not in the textbook and anomaly and they're not falling up on it, and we're losing critical data on what our past was all about. Other civilizations, earlier civilizations, they stop at a certain date. They won't go beyond one hundred. They think anything beyond a few nine

thousand years old Go Beckley Tepe is hunters and gatherers. And now we're showing that that the in Mexico Tiwa Khan is most likely tens of thousands of years old. Egypt, and you know, here's this labyrinth in these colossi, tens of thousands of years old, and they can't go there. And I think this is known by the Egyptian authorities and they don't want to touch it. So well, you know, street used to begin at Sumer and now it begins at go Beckley Tepe. And and in ten years it may begin

twenty thousand years or fifty thousand years ago somewhere else. Yeah, exactly. Hey, Mark, A pleasure is always for those of you listening. You can read all about Mark's work at his website before Atlantis dot com. Mark, do you have any other you have a social media page? I think you have a before Atlantis on the Facebook. What else you got, Yeah, it's it's mainly the blog. That's that's where all the articles are and links to papers, and you can get everything you need to know there.

And when you say blog, you're talking about before Atlantis dot com the post post s it's. Yeah. So it's a website that I every every once in a while, I'll write a new article that's based on sort of summarized the research I've been doing, and it's you know, I've had a few since the Labyrinth that that are up there, but you know they go back for probably six I think about six years now. Yeah, exactly. It's excellent market pleasure is always thanks for having me clip shares, appreciate it,

take care. Always good to have Mark on the program. If you heard him talk about his access to these satellite images, you can hear that he's trying to stay away of having issues with the Antiquities Department of the Egypt's Archaeological Group or Egypto Logical Group. And this is exactly what Faoni and Malanga did in requisitioning a European Space Agency satellite that had the Stars technology on it. I don't know how they went about aligning it for their exact use, and

it sounds like they had somebody at the Space Agency working with them. And they requisition this satellite, had specific alignments processed through the satellite and as it was scanning the Kufu pyramid, they were able to get the data back and then have it interpreted and this is where you get that three D model. That's just mind blowing. But they make no bones about it. They basically

are like, we're not dealing with the Antiquities Department. We have no interest in dealing with their program because they are they're challenged, they're extremely challenged, and it's like working with somebody who's a child. And I hear about this constantly. It's not professional, it's not It's a real problem, and it

continues to be a problem. It's been a problem for decades. It goes if you go way back to Robert Schock's drilling down to do sample work on the front paw of the Sphinx. That was a problem and it continues to be a problem. And I don't know it's if it's all about money. I doubt it, because that the German Institute is excavating Elephantine Island in Egypt and they've been there for decades, or is it the fact that there is I don't know. I don't know what to say about it, but it's

a problem. It's a problem in Mexico as well. There are huge areas and I always give this example. If you go to northern Yucatan, the most one of the most gorgeous cities is Ushmohl ux m a l Ushmohl, and there's the Pyramid of the Magician, which is just gorgeous. It's one of the most beautiful music pyramids in the world. But less than a quarter a mile away is a huge pyramid that's been unexcavated, untouched for for decades. They know about it. If they were to excavate it, it would

be it would be at a ground breaking event. And I think even doctor Ed said this that, you know, the government, I don't know if it's they don't have the money, they don't want to deal with, you know, any new revelations or what. It's just a problem and you just have to just live with it. But it's really frustrating because, as an example, there's been a number of light our scans done on the coast of

Mexico. There's been light our scans done in Campeche in just a number of different cities that reveal multiple odes, which are the sockbes leading to cities never before seen cities. We will occasionally hear about these discoveries through archaeological revelations,

but they won't they can't touch them. This is the same thing that's happening in Guatemala where Richard Hansen's excavating Elmador, and they did this scan of the biosphere of the jungle area just north of him Elmiador, and they found sixty thousand unknown ruins, cities, pyramids, civics area. I mean, something that they're never they're never going to get to. There's just no money. So I don't know, you know, it's it's curious because you have to

wonder how does this work? Does somebody I guess how it works. If somebody writes a paper, gets endowments from local universities and government, rarely government, mostly universities and the educational systems, they don't have any money. What it should fall to is people like Elon musk know, or some tech millionaire billionaire who can throw a few million at a project, pay off the Mexican

or the Egyptian government, and just go to work. It would have to be supported by a university, though you just can't go in there as a tech, as a techie and go, hey, I'm going to excavate a pyramid. I would love that. Oh my god. Can you imagine some of the Maybe somebody from Google or Yahoo or somebody gets in there and says, okay, here's a million bucks. I want the ability to scan this area and where we find something that's unique, like a new pyramid, we

would like permission to excavate. That would be great. It have to be supported by a neighboring university. But oh my god, why doesn't that happen more often? I'm serious. If I had if I won the lottery and I say I had, say I won fifty million, I take a couple of million and go down to Mexico and go, okay, I want to excavate this pyramid, especially the one at Ushmol, because I've seen I've seen it. Actually you can see it. As you're standing on the Great Pyramid.

There's there's this one pyramid that's partially excavated. It's called the Great Pyramid, and it's so tall, it's like three hundred and fifty feet in the air that you can see this other pyramid. You can see a lot of other things too. During the summertime, you can see a lot of very cool buildings. There's a series of buildings next to this pyramid that are exactly designed, exactly like the pyramid structures that we see at Mount Albon in Wahaka,

and I've taken a few pictures of them. So there are so much to discover, so much to uncover, and all it is is money and more vision from these departments. So anyhow, it's great to have Mark on the program. Look for the gallery, I'm gonna put up two galleries. The first gallery is going to be a historic look at the labyrinth through the eyes of Petrie Flinders. Petrie and also Herodotus will have some images that are

passed down from him and we'll show what Mark has found. And then the second gallery is the details from this article Hawara Pyramid and the Labyrinth and what we see today, which is not a great deal. It's pretty it's pretty dilapidated. There's not a hell of a lot there's it's in huge disrepair,

major disrepair. So fun to have Mark on the program. Hey, guess what's coming up holidays is Thanksgiving shortly in about a month and a little more than a month, and then there's Christmas and this is a time forgiving. And I tell people every year get on an Earth Ancients tour. You'll love it. It's reasonably priced. All you gotta do is get to either Egypt in April or Turkey if you want to join us for the Turkey tour, which is going to be in August of twenty twenty four. These are wonderful

tours. They're all encompassing, all inclusive, meaning all your food, your travel, your beverages, your access to all these sites are covered. Check it out. What a gift to give yourself. You know, you're giving your gift. You're giving gifts to your parents, to your loved ones, to your kids, to your friends. Give yourself the gift of a lifetime and join us in Egypt April twenty eighth through May ninth, twenty twenty four. We all meet in Cairo. It is any I mean, you can

hear people who we have on the program talk about it. It is a world class tour. It's just and it's relaxing. It's startling because you can't believe the size of these pyramids and the beauty of these temples. Come out and join us. For more information, go to earth Ancients dot com, forward slash Tours and check it out. Now that's part one. Now part two is we're gonna be in Turkey. We're almost full. We got thirty people right now that are already registered and we don't even have our page up

yet. We're still working on it. Just got the itinerary. It's mind blowing. We're talking go Backly Teppi Carahan, Teppi, Darren Kuru, Cappadocia, all those underground cities, the museums, the statuary. It's just gonna be a blast. I haven't been there and so I'm really excited about going. It's gonna be mid August twenty twenty four. If you would like to join us, this is what I'm having people do. Send an email.

Send an email to earth Ancients the number four the letter you at gmail dot com and say Cliff, send me the itinerary and by the way, put me on your list. Reserve a space for me. You know, I'll do it. It is it's ten days, it's intense sites and it is a whole education that I'm looking forward to. So for more information, go to earth Ancients dot com, Forward Slash Tours for the Egyptian tour, and if you want more information about the Turkey tour, go to Earth. Go

to Earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com. That's it. We're making other announcements too. We're gonna try to do at least one trip to unique Mexico. I'm not sure where we're going. I'm thinking of of the Yucatan because we haven't been up there in over a year. It's been a couple of years. But we may go to some other areas that include Mexico City, which means you get a chance to go to the world class anthropological museum. It's just mind blowing. So check it out, see what's going on,

and join us if you can. All right, that's it for today. I want to thank my guest today, doctor Mark Carlotto and his revelations on this Hawara Labyrinth. As always the team of Ruth Thomas, Mark Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys rock, you really do. All right, take care of be well and we will talk to you next time. Past basic