This week, we're covering a number of topics, including the return of doctor Edwin Barnhardt, who was in Cambodia studying the Angor Watt temple phenomenon known as the Zenus Passage. We have spoken to him about that in the past. This work that he's doing reveals a very advanced culture who were cosmologically focused and able to align their cities with planetary systems as well as seasonal changes, in a very similar way that the Maya aligned their pyramids, temples, and buildings
to various planetary constellations. We're also going to hear more about the satellite scan that was done by Filippo Benoni and Cornado Malegna, who have revealed that the Cufu pyramid is very advanced and looks to be what author Chris Dunn theorized in his book the Geeza power plant was a functional machine. All this and more today on Earth Ancients for Saturday, September twenty three, twenty twenty three. This is Earth Ancients. I'm your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, how
are you welcome to Earth Ancients. Hope you're doing well today. We're speaking with ed doctor ed Barnhart today we're catching up with him. I haven't spoken to Ed in a number of months. He's been traveling with his various tours ed tours around the world, and we'll be joining him this coming November tenth
through the seventeenth, will be in Central Mexico. I talked about it every week, but it's going to be a pleasure joining him, simply because he has not only excavated one of the great Mayan cities known as Plank, he has also visited and worked on Bondenpeck and Josh Chilen, among other ruins that
will be visiting during that tour. But I wanted to catch up with him on his Cambodia trip, and we open our interview with his visit to ankor Watt, which is a camere, an ancient camere site that apparently is revealing a tremendous number of anomalies, and one of the big ones is And by the way, if you caught Ed last time, I think he spoke about
four months ago, we were talking about the zenith passage. Is this kind of a solar or seasonal solstice phenomenon where the lot where the sun is high over this that part of the world and is caught in an inner tube, a chamber inside these temples and reflected on these lingams, which are these carved symbols that represent male and female sexual organs, but more so to the link
of feminine and masculine energy. That's basically what they are. But it's funny because we don't understand why they design an entire complex at Anchor Watter And apparently there's something like a hundred temples, and these are complex temples that are that kind of look like pyramids in a way, but there there you can walk inside of them, where in the Maya world you can't walk inside most of
the pyramids. And Ed's gonna tell us more about what he discovered regarding these Zenith Passage temples and the fact that there are a lot of unusual phenomenon in the form of numerology, perhaps collecting and using this sacred time of year within the temples. It looks like you could stand and be bathed in the light
that passed through these the shafts. And so we're gonna learn about that, and then we're gonna go and we're gonna do a We're gonna have a look at some of the other aspects of Maya temples, Maya pyramids, and perhaps the correlation between the two. Although we know that they did not of course orthodox He says this, they did not exchange any information. This has always been a problem for me. Michael Cole, who's like the foremost Mayanus in
the world. He's passed away about ten years ago. He wrote many many of the books he excavated to call. He excavated a number of places. He believes there is no such thing as diffusion. Remember, diffusion is the term that we use when cultures are exchanging science. They're exchanging engineering, architecture or whatever. I think when it comes to cosmology, the study of the stars and things like this, that there was an exchange of knowledge between the
Khmer and the Maya. It does make sense that other cultures, perhaps even the Egyptians and the Maya, where we're exchanging data. The bottom line is that when we are dealing with the current orthodoxy, they got to see the paperwork that says that they even if it was in a geoglyph or rendering some writing, some scribbles, that wouldn't be enough for them, and they have to see it matter of factly. So this is what we deal with right
now. And this is why Earth Ancients is around to basically show an alternative view. And in some cases, and I believe this is true, the indigenous perspective is probably gonna, you know, give us the answers we need. And this is the oral traditions. And if you remember back a few months ago, we had doctor Pauline Steves from Canada who's an indigenous, a
native archaeologist. She writes very succinctly that these oral traditions are growing and when you begin to reference them and compare them to various native groups around the world, they all kind of sink. And as they sink, we can verify stories. The Great Flood is one great example. Every culture has a story of the Great Flood. One of the things that I've always been curious about, and it's been proven by a number of different scientists, is that many
of these mind cities line up constellations. We know that the Geeza Pyramids line up with the constellation of Ryan. It's been a fact. It's been noted by Guatemalan archaeologists that places like Tikal line up with specific constellations. I think it's a Lira constellation. I'm not quite I don't quite remember, but they are able to show that this pyramid lines up with this star, this pyramid lines up with that star, so forth and so on. And to my
mind, we probably see this in ankor Watt and other places. And that shows that these ancient people were very much aligned with these these ruins. And so this is something to be to be condescent about. And I gotta tell you this. The beauty of ed doctor Edwin Barnhardt is that he is very open minded. He's been on ancient aliens more than I have. I think I've refused to be on ancient aliens. I just I have. I don't
want to support it. As much as I admire Eric van Donnigen, David Hatcher, Childress and William Henry and the other hosts on that program, I know them all, I just am uncomfortable. And I've been asked to be I've been asked to sit in and all those programs a couple of times and no thank you, no thank you. So I want to mention this too. In part of our discussion, I bring up this new discovery by the
two scientists Filippo Beyondi and Corrado Malenga. Remember they requisitioned a European Space Agency satellite and the satellite was used had a system on it called a SARS Tomography Scanner SAR. SAAR stands for Synthetic Aperture Radar and this r These radars, these satellites are used for scanning volcanoes of for geologists and you know, to learn if they are active, to kind of be an early warning system to let people know they're about to burst or about to bust and blow, which
means there's lava flow. So that's what they're using for. Filippo and Cornado actually requisitioned it and had the satellite and this must have cost a ton of money unless they know somebody in at the European Space Agency. They scanned the Kufu Pyramid, remember this, and what they got back was a completely new
rendition of the interior of that pyramid. Twenty two new rooms were found, a number of shafts, some going as deep as it looks like more than one hundred feet under the base of the pyramid, canals that circled the Kings and Queen's chamber, new stairways or what looks to be stairways, and relieving chambers, and other intricate mechanisms in this pyramid. That kind of gives credence to what Chris said. Chris Dunn said about twenty years ago that the Cufu
Pyramid is a machine, energy producing machine. And by the way, he wrote the book The Geeza power Plant, I think it's almost twenty years now. Chris is going to be on the show next year. He has a brand new book out coming out in late December. And by the way, that book is his belief that the Great Pyramid actually duplicated what Tesla Nikolai Tesla
tried to duplicate in his Warncliff Tower, which is I believe. I think what he's thinking is that that he could produce free energy in the atmosphere and you could run off of that. Now, if that's true, that means the people who built that pyramid were extremely advanced, thousands of years advance of ours of us. And this is probably where the ancient alien guys come in and go, oh, we knew it was aliens that built this thing.
Well, no, come on, now, remember there are multiple epochs that go over Right now, the belief is over four thousand years in the past, so over that time period, you're going to develop a very very advanced science here on Earth as an Earth Lane, not from another world, not from another dimension, not from another species of hominins or whatever. Or it could be Earth hominins, but not not from ETS. I just I just I just don't find any evidence of ETS. So I mean, it's easy
to fall into the ET quagmire when you see advanced technology like this. And Boni and Malanga, the two scientists that that aligned this satellite, have just produced a new book. And I'm trying to get Filippo Beyondi to come on the program he's in from Ireland, Belfast, Ireland, and get him to talk about this book, because it is not only revolutionary as you'll hear today from ed or on chaeologists here or the ancients. Brings up a lot of
questions. It brings up a lot of confusion. And if it's true and we see the sophistication that reproduced in say the Sun Pyramidican, some of the great pyramids at around Yucatan and Mexico, that's just that's a game changer. That's a game changer. And this, honestly, and I'm writing about this right now, is my belief that is what This is what the original people, the Midsole Americans be at Maya, Olmec whatever when they built these pyramids.
This is what their goal was, to create pyramids that were actual machines. So fascinating to think about. So today's program is ankor Watt Pyramids and the Zenith Passage. And my guest today is doctor Edwin Barnhardt. Doctor ed Barnhardt is in the house and that means we're talking archaeology, but not just archaeology. I have to say this about ed He is not sitting behind a desk and going you know what the heck is going on. He's in a
plane, his boots on the ground. Just got back from Cambodia. He is leading our tour November tenth through the seventeenth. If you're interested in joining us, you can see the entire itinerary. It is the Maya of Tabasco and Chiapis November tenth of the seventeen. I just mentioned that, and the entire itinerary is on Earth Ancients dot Com forward slash Tours. I'd say we have one or two spots left, but we'll talk a little bit more about
some of the places we're gonna see later in this interview. I wanted to have add on simply because there's a lot of new data that's been coming out on pyramids and also my unrelated sites, and it's always fun to have them. Hey, Ed, good to see how you doing. I'm great. Thanks for having me back. Cliff. Hey, I want to start with your recent trip to Cambodia and these phenomenal photographs that were taken of a temple at angkor Watt, and you were following up on your last tour with this
zenith passage calculations. Now, one of the things that you hinted on was
that there has been numerology associated with I guess it's a certain temple. But talk a little bit about how what you discovered, first of all, and secondly, how the numerology affects these beams that pass through the interior of these temples well as as we've discussed, the core of my research is about zenith passage, the day or two days of the year and the tropics where the sun goes directly over your head so at noon you'll have absolutely no shadow.
You know, the ancients would put these long, tall sticks perfectly plumbing the ground to really try to get an accurate observation of that moment of zenith. For Anchor, the dates are August seventeenth and April twenty sixth, and so those two dates are the windows that I can be there and actually record the sun in this position. Now, at Anchor, what they do instead of putting up a bunch of straight sticks in the ground called nomans, they created
what's called a zenith tube. And those zenith tubes are in the roofs of all of those beehive shaped temples that you see. The interior of those is hollow, and up at the very top at the capstone, there were originally these tubes that would go very deep, maybe three to five feet deep,
and they'd be about maybe four inches in diameters. So they were designed for only when the sun is exactly over the top of them, would a beam of light come through that tube and be concentrated into a beam of light that would hit the center of the altar inside the temple. And literally hundreds of them around Cambodia built exactly the same way. And so I've been pinpointing that moment I go in August seventeenth, when it's super hot and wait for that
day. A couple of the roofs are broken up, so you can go a couple of days on either side and see more diffuse light. But it still does the phenomena where you actually see this kind of like Indiana Jones, like beam of light come down. What I mean, why would they spend this uh the man hours to build these temples? And when they're not talking small temples, these are very big temples that are hollowed out to get this once in a year sunbeam. Why who cares? It's a good question.
Now, you know, my theories center around the Hindu concept of the center of the universe. A lot of their mythology talk about Mountain Miru being at the center of the world and in the axis of the center of the universe. That's what those temples are said again and again to be by both ancient and modern Hindu people, that those temples recreate Mount Meru at the center of
the universe. So I'm weak that alignment that they're drawing out with the Sun being exactly at the center of the sky and coming through Mount Meru is kind of spiritually activating it as the center of the universe. Okay, so you build this temple, you get this beam, you're aligning to this sacred historical notion. Is there something that's been written? Is there imagery that relates to the position of the sun, energetics, esoteric knowledge that is kind of a
tradition of the kimball or the chimer. Well, I'd say it's the it's the larger you know, Indo, China and Southeast Asian world. That's kind of this combination of Hinduism and Buddhism. They kind of flip flopping back, but they're much like Judaism and Christianity. They share the same core story. They've just they're divergent religions of the same tradition being the older one and Buddhist
Buddhism being the evolution. But there are you know, there's there's I have been searching both on the ground and in archives for things that relate to these issues, and I've found interesting things like old Chinese travelers talking about how individual communities would build up these little berms and put a noman in there specifically to know the day of Zenith passage. I found some what I what I was
looking for this last time to document was an actual building orientation. Almost all of the Khmer temple complexes are lined up in cardinal directions, so north southeast west, they're right on those cardinal directions. Virtually all of them are in the Maya area. We find these buildings that are aligned to the day that the sun will rise when that later on that day, it'll be right over your head at zenith. So I was looking for that, and they're hard
to find, but I found one. A section of co Care has a pyramid, so you have a really bird's eye view looking over a temple complex through a pair of libraries and into one of those big water features called Barai and onto a flat horizon where the sun rises. So I actually found a purposely altered orientation of a whole complex. That's kind of making my argument in
another way that yes, they are indeed looking at zenith passage. And so I was there at dawn on the top of this temple in the middle of nowhere to take this picture of the sun rising right between its front doors, and I got that. Wow, that's amazing. All right, give us heads up on the numerology. This is somewhat esoteric language, but apparently what are your associates figured something. Now, go ahead, and what's that all about? Well, there, if I if I'm thinking of the one that
you're thinking of. There's a long, long carving on one of the walls of the Temple of ankor Watt that's showing us the famous Hindu mythology scene of the churning of the Sea of milk, where the demons and the angels or the assuras and the divas are using this big snake to froth up this sea of milk. And they're using a big, a big island in the middle of it, and wrapped the snake around and they turned back and forth until it froths up the milk. But the number of people on either side of
the island count up too. There was a woman named eleanor Monika who counted them up and saw it as solstice and equinox. The distances between there are ninety and eighty nine on either side. But I noticed that there were also some still larger but not as big as the ones on the end figures. And when you count those up, you get a count of one hundred and twelve days, which is exactly the number of days between the first and the
second Zenith passage. At Anchor. So this was a weird little piece of numerology where they were actually encoding in an older mythology the number one hundred and twelve, which is the number of days between April twenty sixth and August seventeenth.
Now to back that up, also, there's a temple complex in Java called Pronambanan, and a certain temple complex within that city also has a outer compound that's oriented to its day of zenith passage the sunrise, just like co Care that I documented just a month ago, but in this case it has a little more. It has the outer compound that is at eight degrees and
it's at eight degrees south. There's a whole math thing there that makes that work with why that's the day for zenith passage to go directly over our head. But it also has a central temple with two hundred and twenty four individual little temples around it. And I'll give you one guess what the distance between zenith passage first one and second one is at that latitude. It's two hundred
and twenty four days. So they actually have the numerology of the distance between the two zenith passages there, and they have their outer compound oriented to see it at its sunrise. When was that complex built Pronombanon. I don't know whether it was built at the start, but an interesting link between it and Khmer is that it was it was probably To answer your question, I think it was built around the seventh century. But the very first king of Anchor
of the Khmer civilization was Jayavarman the second. He was crowned in eight o two CE, and he spent his teenage years as a captive of the court of Pronombanon in Java. And then when he got away and he went into the mainland and established the Khmer Empire, he created more of these kinds of zenith tubes based on what he saw there. I believe that's why it was educated. Somehow he was educated. I just found something that baked my noodle
too. I shouldn't even tell you somebody, I'm writing my paper right now. But I sat up in my bed. I had my son with me in Cambodia. I sat up in my bed in my hotel room. I was like, holy crap Edwin. Do you know that one hundred and twelve days is exactly four camer lunar months of twenty eight days? This latitude is exactly four months between zenith passages, and I thought, well, man, do I even do I have the beginnings of why Anchor is where it's at.
And then I went back and I was sitting at my table just yesterday looking at what I described to you that was two hundred and twenty four temples, and I thought it couldn't be, could it? And I divided it by twenty eight. It's perfectly eight. Those two temple complexes are in perfect places where zenith passage is an even increment of their lunar months. Anywhere else you go between the two, you really don't get an even thing. Most
of the even ones are out in open water. So these guys were astronomers as well. I guess there were astronomers, but they were tying astronomy to the land through the weird phenomena of zenith passage being different at different latitudes. Everywhere you go. In Cambodia, summer solstice is June twenty first, but
it depends on your latitude what day you have as zenith passage. So when I went up to co Care, I had to go on August sixteenth, because it is thirty five kilometers farther north, and so the day shifted by one, which was convenient because I could go play my game and co care and then rush back down to Anchor and see its Zenith passage. What is it about Cambodia that's so fascinating to you? Ed? Is it the fact that they were pyramid builders? And even though we know from a number of
researchers that the designs are dissimilar, they're not. You know, they're not similar at all, but there is some there is some design features that might be similar. But what's what's your what's your interest? Well, I mean, now that I've been there a bunch, I have a lot of tings that I find lovely about the place. But my inspiration for going there was that it is one of the only major ancient civilizations to have grown up in
the tropics. So I was already for more than a decade searching for evidence about Zenith Passage in Mesoamerica, and we kind of ran into a block. You know, what else can we say about this? So I thought, Hey, if there are other civilizations in the tropics, which there must be a bunch, let's go see what they say about Zenith Passage and maybe it can enlighten us on our work and move us further along in meso America. So I looked at the map, and to my surprise, almost all of
our ancient civilizations are above the tropics. The one over there that's squarely in it, well, you've got you've got southern India, and then you have Southeast Asia. But all of Egypt except for the very southern part, all of Rome, all of Greece, all of Mesopotamia, all of those are
north of the tropics, and they'll never get a Zenith Passage. So I went to the Khmer civilization because they were the only other one in the same latitude as meso America, and I thought I'd go over there and learn something about At that point, I didn't even know whether they knew anything about Seenith Passage. There was nothing in the literature. The friendship dominated uh Khmer archaeology for decades. Now that's kind of changed, but they were focused on the
architecture. They did not think about the archaeo astronomy at all, So it was kind of a brand new field. Even today, there are me and maybe maybe four or five other guys that are even publishing or thinking about it at all. We need the book ed, not the white paper. We need the book. So think about that. Hey, I'm working on it. What what site in Maya Land has a pyramid or temple dedicated directly to the zenith passage? Well, there's evidence of it at well, I don't
know whether directly dedicated to it. We don't. We don't really know that much about what these sempols are about. Honestly, we get the hieroglyphs. But I can say that there is a there's an alignment that's been known forever. At Copon, Blanka's palace actually has two different alignments. The castillo at uh at chichen Itza has two different alignments, has one the main pyramid at
Chichisa No, the the observatory, the caracole a caracole. Okay, It's bottom staircase is aligned to its zenith passage, and one of the only three surviving windows up top is looking at the day that the sun will rise, not at its latitude, but at Copon's latitude. This is interesting, Again and again and again, I think I should have been more specific in my question to you. Is the Khmer temples are open like uh, the drilled
from the the temple top to the to the Lingham below. Is there a temple like that in my island, not in my island or not that we've found. Of course, you know that a lot of them are super ruined. There could be things that we don't see, but they that's called a zenith tube versus the moleman. And so the three zenith tubes that we know from meso America are one in montiel Bond built into a staircase, one in Joschicalco that's built that's cut into a cave right right in the middle of the
complex. And then there's one maybe two into Tibakan. There's a really Yeah. I was waiting for you to say Tikal has three or four because there's somebody I wish. No, they're they're temples are built completely different. They're they're solid brew fuck top. But the kamer Ones are they have an intentional hole. Yeah, and like I said, the man hours, the complexity of these temples, this is something it's almost like the entire complex was built
for this Zenus passage event. If you want to after this interview, I'll throw you a couple of images if I haven't already that you can put on your in your show notes so people can see these beams of light. I'd like to use with your permission, the gallery of images you posted on your Facebook page with your last tour group. And then there's one with a lingam. I don't know where I saw it, but that's like the most recent photograph. Real quickly add before we move on, why the importance of a
lingam? And what I mean? The lingam to me is the representation of fertility somewhat. But why the beam hitting this stone lingam? Is this for like the seasonal fertility, fertility rights or something. What's going on there? Well, I mean besides the perennial issue of men and erecting large penises in their home. I like how you flat you just quickly go over, you know, in their in their position. I know this is first a podcast, but someday someone will see this, this beautiful little model. Wow.
Of there's the lingham, and then the thing that it fits into is called a yannie, and that is thought of as a vagina. So it's that duality of men and women in the fertility symbol. But also, as it points straight up, guess what it is. It's a Noman, and so when the light shines down from the tube right onto it, this area here has no shadow inside the temple, and so's it works with the Zenith passage
identification. It shows it is a noman inside the temple. And the funny thing about co Care and that big pyramid I was standing up on top of it is well known, though they don't know where it is anymore, that on top of that was a ten foot tall lingham, the tallest one in all of Cambodia, at the top of the temple. On top of the temple, that is a line to Zenith passage. So on top of the one that is a line to see Zenith Passage sunrise. It has the largest
gnomen in the entire Khmer world or had the lingams are are? You can't help but just say they're sexual. I mean a penis and vagina. What's the what's the the cut that makes it look like you could pour of water or something out of it? Fluids? Yeah, what is that is that? I think it's a practical thing because when they leave that hole in the roof all year, the rain comes in. I was thinking it hits at the top of the lingham and comes around and doesn't dig a hole in the
temple and then it pours out. Okay, I don't know. There's really nothing written about Lingham's that I've You would think there would be something written, but I don't know. You know, I'm sure there is. That. My trouble is, you know, I'm been a Mayanist for most of my life, and now I'm jumping into this Buddhist and Hindu thing and there's only you know, five thousand years of written documents or so. I'm sure I'll get through of them before I die. Yeah, you got your work cut
out for you. There's so much out there. I mean, I every time I delve into it, I find neat new things real quickly. Before we leave Cambodia, They're intricate. Construction and design of these temples is pretty cool. What do you find appealing and tell us real quickly the difference between a Maya temple and a Khmer temple. Well, you know, a lot of the constructions that we think of when we see the Maya world are these
pyramids that are solid on the inside. They have earlier phases sometimes, but there's not there's almost never chambers and things inside that pyramid like Egypt has and the Khmer the same way. All of these temple complex as we see, you can actually walk inside them, and they've got those vaulted empty roofs and things. So that's that's a huge different part of it that the architecture we see in the pretty coffee table pictures. Those are the they're they're hollow and
you can walk inside. Most of the Maya stuff is on the exterior and on the very top, but the Khmer stuff is much more elaborate and massive. I mean, I I've been teamed Maya my whole life. But the truth is that the great city of Tikal fits inside just the compound called Anchor Tom, which is a fraction of the city of Anchor. The entire city of Tikal is an ant compared to to Anchor, so this scale is just incomparable. We could talk about that for a while. Hey, I want
to jump ship. We're talking about pyramids. I sent you a paper by two scientists, Filippo Beyondi and Cornado Malanga. Before we started we were talking about this paper. They were able to requisition a Italian satellite and use a process called SAR, which stands for a synthetic opening radar, and they use this radar to scan volcanoes to determine the volatility if they're gonna blast, kind
of an early warning them. The two scientists pointed it at the Kufu Pyramid, the Great Pyramid in Giza, and they came back with something phenomenal twenty two new rooms, shafts, stairways, corridors, very very unusual CAD readings based on the scans, and well, what do you what do you say about that? I mean, I've never seen anything like that. I think one of the problems we both agreed to is the fact that the image scans
that we see are pretty rudimentary. They're pretty raw, they're not really cleaned up. But other than that, what does that make you? I mean, what's going on here? Is this an engine? I mean, Chris Dunn says that the Great Pyramids an engine, right, And I've I've read a little bit of that, and you know, you know, that's not really my wheelhouse. I'm not in You know a lot more about Egypt than I do, and certainly I don't know a whole lot about satellite imagery and
SAR. But from what I can read, there I mean, I think there's been enough studies from various angles to make it evident that there are undiscovered chambers inside the pyramids there on the Giza plateau. That doesn't surprise me at all. But the presentation of the data in that report, and I have read a lot of technical reports, it's very very technical language. I you know, I really I get interested in the methodology. Okay, well, you know, how did you collect your data? But that that section of
the report is very very obtuse. It's hard to understand exactly what they're doing. I know that it's cross thin sections of satellite imagery, which is kind of a different way to use satellite imagery. But frankly, you know, I don't understand all of their explanations. I noted that, you know, it's it's still in the peer review process, so the people that understand what they're saying more than me can help them make a clearer argument, so guys
like me and you can understand it exactly. I got a pet peeve that, you know, when important papers come out like this, I wish they wouldn't speak in such technical jargon. I mean, they're supposed to be teachers, they're supposed to be explaining it in a way that the regular people that are interested in it can understand. But when I read that paper, you know, thirty three out of the thirty nine pages make my eyes cross.
I don't really get the get what they're saying. And the images they're using are understandably limited. They probably took thousands of cross sections to create their final model. Yeah, but the ones they chose at least aren't really showing me what they say they're seeing there. So the text and the images don't seem to match up. I'm but but you know, I may just not understand
it. Yeah, I totally agree that the language is highly technical. In fact, i'd say a third of the paper I think it's thirty or forty pages is equations and mathematical formulas that were used to align the scan, and and then this is all uploaded into after the scan has taken into a CAD system, when we get the resulting three D images. I found it interesting
that there are corridors. There's always been speculation, and we do now know that at the g and the Geese of Pyramid, the Geese of Plateau, there are underground canals that have water moving around, and I was curious on your thoughts. When I was with Gonzalez, professor or doctor Gonzalez at twa con we were in the tunnel underneath the Serpent Pyramid. Water was a huge part of that complex, and this paper did talk about water in a very
fantastic way. Yeah, I want to ask you this. In this book I'm writing, the Maya Controversy, you submitted a couple of interesting photographs that had been taken by a satellite where you see the water in canals from the river leading to the body or the area of this plum Serpent pyramid, and
then it goes down this well that Gonzalez initially found into this tunnel. Now, Gonzalez says that this is all for developing the underworld, and this is part of the ceremony anal aspects, and of course he found seventy five thousand artifacts in that tunnel. But I'm curious, when we talked a couple of months ago, your experience in surveying not only Polanky but also visiting other sites is that the water is a critical aspect in the construction of not only pyramids,
but temples and waterways and things like that. Talk a little bit about the misole American perception of water and why it is designed into these buildings. Well, you know, we're talking about Tao tu Wakan and the Maya Area,
which are two entirely different environments. The thing that we're talking about a Teo t Wican, if I can start there, Yeah, appears to be an aqueduct leading from the main river, the San Juan, that goes through the middle of the site and leading directly and only too that man made tunnel that Gomez found under the temple of kessel Quaddle. That is fascinating to me, and it also is weird to me that Ena clearly dug the whole thing up and then buried it again. They know it's there, and I don't
know why Gomez's reports never say a thing about it. That's weird. But so in tail Tubacan, their challenge is to get water two parts of the site that have no water for whatever purpose, whether it's creating a watery underworld or washing your laundry. Everybody in that huge city needed water, and it only came from the limited sources of the river. Then you turned to Maya area and Polanka, where will be in just a couple of months. Here,
their challenge also is to control water. But there there where it's in a rainforest and it's constantly raining. Their challenge was to control it so it wouldn't wash them off the foundations of their buildings. How close it's Polanky to the river though it's not that close, is it. No, it's up
on a hill above. But there are there are rivers that run through polank Gate from above down below with waterfalls, and and in tons of severe rainfall, that water gets out of the banks of those rivers and can join in the middle. So they're about They're all about water control features an entirely different goal for their engineering. So we see the plank Gate mastery of hydraulic engineering exhibit itself in a totally different way than we do Tao Tibacan, because the
two different climactic regions have different challenges. Polank As trying not to get engulfed by their water, Taotibacon trying to spread their water out to a larger and larger sprawling population. I want to I want to go back to tawakon real quickly. Uh. You said something interesting, which is like, why would Gonzalez fill the tunnel back in and not exploring any further. I looked high and low for papers that he or his team would write on this water mark
that is very evident in this tunnel. I mean I saw it close up. Uh why not talk about what that purpose? What the purpose was? Uh? He kept saying to us, uh that don't touch the walls, don't touch the ceiling because there is uh what's the what's the what's the raw form of mercury? Uh? Well, cinembar, the cinema bar all over
the wall and it's very poisonous. Da da da da. My feeling is because he also found literally gallons of mercury in the the on the ground that they vacuumed out, that the water had this center bar in it, and that's what they were painting the ceilings with. I mean he even turned the lights off and showed the ceiling with his flashlight and said, this is what you know. They had a torch and this is what they would do. The weird thing about that tunnel is that they didn't initially go down the well
shaft the Tewa Knutkins. I guess you could call them open the back of the tunnel as the access point. They actually dug out the back area. It had huge stones in it. They went in the tunnel, and then they began using it as a ceremonial center, which makes me think maybe they're not the original designers behind it. Maybe an earlier people put that in there. They found it and used it as a ceremonial center. Now my question to you is, when I asked you about the purpose of the water,
you went ahead and actually showed me these amazing canals that were underground. What I mean, the simple explanation the edge of the the you know, the the orthodox Edgy terminology would be this is a shamanistic design. But is that is isn't that simple that they would create such a complex, you know, water system to have in this temper in this pyramid. I agree with you that it is a heck of a lot of work and it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense from a practical point of view. And so, you know, at least what I have been taught and the best explanation that you know, my field comes up with is that they are recreating moments of their creation story and cosmology. They are recreating an environment that is the watery underworld
where the dead go and where the gods of death reside. Okay, and so that's I mean that that does not make sense to my Western world mind, but it does make sense on a level that these people think different than I think or was taught, and that when it comes to religious activities, they are oftentimes very labor intensive, very huge because the harder you worked,
the greater yours show of adoration. You know. That's uh. Bill fash famously said, you know, when you're building things for the gods, it's not supposed to be easy. Yeah, we're gonna take a short commercial break and we will be right back with my guest today, doctor Edwin Barnhart, and he's talking about a wide variety of topics, so we'll be right back.
My guest today is doctor Edwin Barnhardt. He has recently returned from a tour of Cambodia and anglor Watt and the unique structures of the buildings there. If a scan like this star scan is done on say the Pyramid of the Sun or Quits Aquatal Pyramid or even the Moon Pyramid, and they've turned up similar features like the Kufu pyramid, what would that make you think? Well, in that context, I'd think, Oh, they just found a tune,
because that's almost invariably what's in meso America. You know, the Kufu one. We already have all these neat chambers. I mean I've walked into those chambers and climbed up that little thing, so we knew there were some and we know from other limited examples in Egypt that the pyramids were constructed with interiors in mind. In the Maya and larger meso American world, we never find that. The only thing we find inside tombs that are chambers are buried
tombs. So if they find a big cavity in the sun, we would say that it would I would think, oh, did we finally find a Tao Tebalkan king, Because that's a weird thing about Tao Tebakan. You know, they don't they don't name who their kings are. We don't seem to have any of their tombs. We don't know where they lived. That's a that's a abiding mystery, one of many about Tao Tebakan. That where the heck is the ruling class that made all this happen. Yeah, but let's
talk you're a mayaas let's talk Maya for a minute. What you know, Maya are noted as a pyramid culture. They are fixated on them. You know, they are engineered to perfection. We just before we got on, we were talking about Richard Hansen in Guatemala, who's at Elmador. Those are some of the biggest is in North America. Monstrosities, huge peas. Saying that they're built to appease the gods, to honor the gods, wouldn't it make more sense that they are they have some other function that we just are
not aware of. Well, in the case of the Maya, we have the benefit of hieroglyphs that we are still working on getting, you know, all of them translated. But one thing that is a clear pattern is that when they do refer to pyramids, the word for pyramid and the hieroglyphs is tune wheats, which is stone mountain. So, and then the plazas out in front of them are oftentimes referred to as knob watery places, and the steeler standing in those watery places at the bases of the mountains are called tay
tune stone tree. So together they really put together a picture that the Maya are trying to recreate the natural environment in man made form. And you know a lot of the popele vu is of course, you know this this creation document that has given us a perspective through which to interpret a lot of their behavior. We know a lot of that popele vu occurred in the Guatemalan highlands, and they still refer to mountains there and there today modern day keepers have
shrines on top of mountains that are natural. So you know, a working theory that I favor is that when the Maya made their way down into the flat lowlands of the Poten, they lacked the mountains that were an essential part of their spirituality, so they built them. Interesting, which are the pyramids? That's gonna uh planky real quickly. You're intricately involved. You've been there multiple times, you surveyed it, you hinted the last time we spoke that,
uh, they channeled and moved water around. Do we see water running underneath, say, the pyramid of inscriptions where a pacall was found? Yeah? We So there's actual running water underneath that pyramid. Well, I kind of think it's uh, it's plumbing, not not not a fancy spiritual thing, but so it could be water to man like uh cistern or something the star water or what do we go? More like, there's there's a huge amount of mountain right behind the temple the inscriptions, and a lot of it
was was paved paid there. There are four terraces leading up to a temple on top of the mountain be right behind the crips. Nobody sees it today. It all just looks like forest. But I'm the guy who mapped it, so I know there's a heck of a lot of what you know what modern city planning calls impervious cover. They paved over where the water would normally
seep into the dirt of the mountain side. Now they've created architecture that's going to make the water rush over and down onto the backside of the temple of the inscriptions, and so there is where they put water features that would capture that water and bring it safely under the temple and then out under through underneath the plaza so that it wouldn't erode the backside of the temple and eventually destroy it. So these are the are these cement or are they mortar? Or
I mean what are they? Us? It's like the wastewater services in your neighborhood. If they weren't there, all the water would roll off the people above your, above you and destroy your house. So they really had their hydraulics down, I guess, because otherwise that city would be all over the place. I mean, it's funny that, you know, when it was then we consider it an architectural marble. Here it's just that weird stuff that
the wastewater system builds us four monthly. It's your water and wastewater bill. That's the same architecture, just you know, a thousand years ago. I mean, I've seen in other sites, uh, and I can't think of them right now. I think maybe it was to Call or some other place, really huge underground cisterns, these these collection rooms that also have shafts where the water was siphoned off. Do you see that at a Polank, big
underground collections And there's not at Polank. There are other places, like you know, especially up in the Pook area from like ed Snaw and up into uschemal In those places which sisterns called chiltons, Yeah, that oftentimes have very elaborate systems to fill them up through the rainwater that falls there. But again Plank A is in a position where they have they have seven rivers running through
the city. They are never out of water, and there's no way for the ruling class to uh withhold access to water as a as a way to gain political control over people. Everybody in polank A has water. What the city does for them in a public works kind of way is create water control infrastructure so it doesn't flood everywhere. Aren't you out in California had a good rain. I think you're pretty damn familiar with this. This this flooding and
what you want your government to do about it. Thing. Plink A was much the same way. It's interesting. Pelegi is just one of the places we're going to visit in November. Close by is Bontompeck. I'm curious. There's not a great deal known about Bontompec other than these fascinating murals. But what can you tell us about that that location? Bonompeck is a treasure and yes, you know it's really. If it wasn't for the murals, I
think it would be another obscure site that nobody ever visited. A little known fact is there was actually a lot of beautiful carving from there and for whatever strange reasons, almost none of it is on display at the site. There's a bodega that has a couple of stones in it that I was shown once, but a lot of them are just all over the world. If you actually like look into the museum collections around the world, there's a good thirty
forty really beautifully carved monuments. Some of them are small and some of them are more steel as size, but they're all over the place. But they got kind of just sent out and spread to the four winds. But the music structure one has three rooms of murals in them, and they are absolutely the most incredible murals that we have left in the Maya world. Let's talk about them for a second. The rooms are on top of what looks like
kind of a pyramid shaped structure. You have to actually climb up to get to these little rooms. How did they manage to stay in such pristine shape after so many years? Were they covered in dirt or mud or something? No, you know, I still think it's semi miraculous. I know the
explanation, but I don't think it completely answers it for me. What the explanation that's put forward is that because of cracks in the roof of that structure, that temple one that were just right that they dribbled down along the walls thin coatings of of stucco or limestone that kind of sealed the murals onto the wall. That it was. It was basically like the drip inside of a
cave that creates stealagtites. That kind of just sheets of water came down just perfectly and cemented them to the wall, but in a sea through way. That's that's the explanation I've been told. I know, we've taken all of that off now and it's still they're still there. So you actually took that cover, don't hold water. Yeah, they took they took that cover, and so what we see now actually is very rich in color. I was looking at it the end of the day. What are we actually we're looking
at a procession In one wall, there's pictures of slaves captive. Is it kind of a daily scene that we're or is it signify something? Well, there are actually three separate rooms, and each one of them have a different kind of event that's happening. Okay. Rue one seems to be primarily the court scene of of Bonampak in the seven nineties and seven ninety CE is when the king that's there's a king named Chan Mwan who's displayed in all three rooms,
and in room one it seems to be an air designation ceremony. There's a little child being brought into the room and there's a big band coming in and there's people from other cities that are witnessing it, and the hieroglyphs say it's an air designation ceremony that's occurring in seven ninety two. Then the second room is a battle that's happening, and we know it's bonem Poc versus a site called socks c that was just found like three years ago by Charles Golden,
and it's on the way to bonem Pac. We can see it from the bus. I'll point it out there it is. Maybe we'll even see maybe we'll even catch Charles eating at the We're gonna eat at the same breakfast place that he stays when he's working there. So it's the rainy season, probably won't be there, but anyway, Sucksy and bonem Poc are fighting each other and there's a huge battle being waged on three of the walls. And when you walk in and turn around and look at the wall right behind you.
When you step in, it's a scene of after the battle where the slave, where the prisoners are being brought before the king, and some of them have their fingernails ripped out out and there's a head on one of the steps. It's a real gruesome scene. But the details of the painting, details of their faces are amazing. That still kept fairly. It's so neat, and I, you know, I've been going there for decades and when I first went in there, you could barely see it, and there was
no road. I had to walk like ten kilometers in to go see it. That's it, but I really wanted to see it. Yeah. And then the second after that, Ena had done this thing where they put acetone on the wall and it really screwed them up and they were looking worse than ever, and I was like, oh my god, we've ruined this beautiful
thing. But then Ena redeemed themselves by sending another crew in I'd say, you know, about eight years ago now, and they did this new technique and all of a sudden, the colors pop back out and there are scenes in the murals that I never saw colors. I never saw it's really there. They're so beautiful looking now it's it's amazing using what they've done. So what what have they done to your knowledge to preserve the rich color? Did
they spray it with a coat of something or do we know? I read the paper, but I don't remember the names of the chemicals, but there was Okay, there's some very uh like with with like Q tips kind of process where they just they just spent months conservators very carefully. I think it's called the term. It's called like descaling, like like when your pipes get
all hard, water makes them all calcified. It was that kind of calcification and they just very painstakingly pulled the calcification off and all the colors were still under there. Interesting. It's funny because I when I did my my little review of it, there was at some point a number of frescoes there that have been I think the British took some and the French took some, and
there's very little left. But it's they must have had a ceremonial It seems like Bonnopex the ceremonial center, because there's no pyramids of note like Oh there are, they're just not visible off in the woods. I've seen them, really big pyramid sections that nobody ever goes to. You gotta go on the there's a there's an old air strip, and if you go to the end, one end of the air strip and go into the jungle. From there,
at a diagonal, there's a there's a big pyramid. But as far as the settlement, like the actual residential settlement, nobody's ever made a map of that, so we have no idea how big the city is. I suspect it's a heck of a lot bigger than anybody knows. Real quickly, on that note, why I mean you do this fascinating, very important survey of POLANKI, Why why haven't they gone forward and done that with more of these smaller, lesser known side. This is just the expense. It's the
expense. But it's also, unfortunately just a political situation. Because Ena is a government institution rather than an academic institution, they spend more time politically one up in each other than getting to their job. Now that's it doesn't appreciate me saying that, but you know, you know things like you know Yashi Lan's another one that we have no settlement pattern survey at either one of those two magnificent sites. And it gets to be those are very famous, important
sites. So when you get politically to the position where you're the head archaeologist there, you're not going to be wasting your time getting mosquito bit up and tore up in the jungle. You're going to go straight into one of the pyramids and find yourself a tomb. It's it's hard to get. I'm I'm a weird bird that I'm I'm trained and educated enough to do it and roughneck enough to actually go do it well or my people real quickly. Ena actually asked you to do it right. Yeah, yeah, I mean so that
of course, that's a long many decades now. But actually the World Monument Fund asked me to do one on yashi Lan, but Ena blocked me. Oh oh, it was because the U Samasinta is still They still want to damn the U Samasinta and if they do, yashi Lan goes completely underwater. Oh that's not good. Especially at that time, Ena did not want the extra international press of a project finding new and exciting things at yashi Lan when they were quietly on board for flooding it. Wow, so it's right on
the water. Let's talk real briefly about Yashila. We're gonna be visiting that as well on our tour November tenth through the seventeenth. I was amazed that this is another place that seems like it's been and excavated by a number of different countries, Britain, French, and I don't know who else, but
they have and a number of amazing lintels that are historic. And there's one that's very famous that's in the British Museum that I saw, And I'm like, damn, how am I gonna appreciate this unless I go to Britain. I was just there November, but I wasn't paid attention to to Maya. I was paying attention to the Egyptian collection. So what's important about that city? Is it just the fact that it's uh strategically placed right on the water
on the major river, or what do we know about it? Well, it certainly was a vital place for trade and for roots, for for armies to pass back and forth through, perfect place to cross the U Sama Senta and this weird horseshoe of the kind of horseshoe shape of the Usamacinta, so it was a real control point for trade down the river and crossing the river.
They had they had a huge suspension bridge they built across the river that entire you know, an entire army could walk across this thing in a day, where normally they'd have to figure out some way to pour to everybody across. The bridge. Is one of the architectural phenomenas of the Maya world. All destroyed now, but if you can still see the pylons of the bridge
and wear it tied into either side. Yeah, but you know, on another level, you know, for me and you, I find Yashilan one of the most beautiful and romantic places that the whole the Maya world has. The trip up the mist on the river to get there, and then the way it's kind of just wedged into a hillside, and there's nobody ever visits there. When we go there, we'll take an hour ride up the u Samacina through the mist. In the morning, we'll show up and I will
be surprised if we see one other tourists there. But it's so isolated, is it? Because you have to take a boat and flow up the river to get to it. Is that why it's Yep, it's not easy and it's you know, I think a lot of besides a couple of intrepid travelers. You either are in a group that somebody knows how to get there, or it's, uh, it's kind of spooky. People are like untrusting,
you know. The average Joe gets to this little town a front terra corps all and somebody says, getting my boat and I'll bring you somewhere special, Like, no, don't. Yeah, but I know the people there and I've got it all planned out for have you. We have you to say no, don't get in that boat. Well that's when I've learned, like, don't be messing around with a crappy motor boat. I always look at the motor like I don't like this boat. I'm gonna go in your boat.
You're faster, you know, because it takes a long time to get back and forth. Talk about this couple of the buildings, Uh one, it looks like they call it a maze. Yeah. I don't know why the Maya would do this, but it looks like it's for some ritual or something. They create a building that has weird turns and goes all over the place. What's that all about? It's number one, It's it's fun. The yeah, I saw that, And there are so many weird little twists
and turns back there. You can use your you know, your cell phone flashlight and get back in there. And they are these huge spiders back in there, the size of your head. It's really it's it's we're gonna have to edit that out of there because we have They don't they don't jump on you. They don't jump on you get a good picture of them, but they look like they're like from an alien world. They're really freaky spiders that live in the darkness. Really, but you know, to the purpose of
them. A lot of people do theorize exactly what you were just saying that these kind of dark underworld kind of circumstances are places where shamans would go do
rituals. My old friend Alfonso Morallies had written a whole series of papers about how shamans may go in there is symbolically the kernel of corn and that like he had some ethnographies about people that would go do that, and like the mites in their hair would mean that they'll be pestilence in the crops and things like that, and they'd stay under there for a period of time and a kind of sensory deprivation, and then emerge as the corn emerges from the ground.
And maybe that's true, maybe that's not for the past, we don't know. But architecturally speaking, these labyrinths are not built from the get go to be a labyrinth. They are a byproduct in most cases. For Shure Yoshi Lan, of an original set of buildings that was just you know, had a number of rooms in it, and then as the maya loved to
do, they build over them. Usually they just fill in those rooms, but in a few cases, like Yashi Lan, they decide to leave the the that original building open and it becomes kind of a basement or an underground of the new building. And so there's buildings up on top that are on the surface and have light coming in, and they're built on top of ones that they intentionally leave open to be kind of a lower story or basement.
The palace at Point A is exactly the same way. There is an underworld of the palace and it is well documented as the early version of the palace, and then subsequent kings built up over it and instead of filling it in, they made it kind of the basement of the palace. Interesting, fascinating. For those of you listening, Ed will be leading our first ever tour to this location. It's our maya of the of Tabasco and Chiapis. It's
November tenth through the seventeenth. If you want more information, you can go to earth Ancients dot com forward slash chores. We have a couple of spots left. We're we're looking pretty good. But hey, we'll take a couple more people. If you want to join us, let me know. Also, if you want more information, send me an email. Send it to
earth Ancients the number four the letter you at gmail dot com. If you have questions and I will answer them, or I'll forward it to Ed and he can answer them to you for you too, So I would be happy too. But by the way, yes, we do really only have a couple of spots left. There's one one particular part of the trip that I that I've just made sure is going right. In Bonempock, the locking done. Indians have taken over the site. They took it over like twenty five
years ago. But you can't drive your vehicle to the site. You have to stop about ten miles away and get in locking dome vehicles and go up. And usually it's just what chever lock and Done guy with his long hair and his robes hanging around, that's going to drive you in his junkie van. But I was like, hold on, I'm showing up with Cliff, and I'm showing up with like, you know, twenty plus people. I need to know that I have hired people to bring us to the site.
So I've got I already send people out to the village and I have a guaranteed three vans and they'll hold you know, Oh, that's interesting, depending on how many people graham in, you know, the max thirty. Every time I see a picture of these Indians that are wearing long white robes and kind of carrying staffs, like through the low own the site. Ena takes a Ena takes a ticket in the middle of the site. But the Lock
and don bring you up there and they guard the site. When we go to the murals, it's it's going to be two Lock and Done guys that that very seriously guard them. They and they have weird rules like take your hat off. Only one person in at a time. Take your bag off, put it over here. I love that kind of they're serious heart attack about protecting it. As long as I don't have to drink any ayahuasca, I'm in good shape. No, I that's that's a special charge. That
could be a right. That's good. That's good to know. So that's gonna be fun November tenth through the seventeenth. I'm looking forward to it. I have not been to that part of Mexico and always wanted to see Polanky planky by itself as kind of the crown jewel as we come to the end, and I wanted to ask you. A book came out a few years ago on lenses and Robert Temple wrote it. He wrote a book on various
ancient lenses. He actually found that lenses were carved back as early as I think he said ADBC could be eight hundred, but I think it's ADBC. My question to you, and by the way, the book is focused on museums that he traveled around the world and found lenses and like lenses like in glasses, glasses and also for telescopes, right, okay, now here.
My question has always been when we see l Caracole, one of the big observatories of the Maya, and we go to Maya Pan, and we go to to Call and I'm sure you can think of a bunch of other places that have observatories. When we say that the Maya didn't have lenses, it's becoming a problem for me simply because of the details that they present in these codices of say Venus and the Moon. And I mean, isn't it possible
what the Maya head of lenses? Well, I mean, I guess we're gonna find itple I mean, we've we in my estimation, we've excavated less than one percent of the Maya world. Really, I would say, so, I mean that that is my estimate, and I would stand by it. And so you know, any any responsible scientists trying to make hard conclusions based on a sub one percent sample is an idiot. So there's a lot lots of things could be out there, But lenses are a non perishable thing.
So that's the sort of thing that we would find in the tombs of somewhere. I know, we you know, we we actually excavated the tomb or the house of an astronomer in site called Schultune in Guatemala and no lens there. I know, we have obsidian mirrors, we have high right mirrors. Yeah, so that kind of reflection, yes, But to my knowledge, I have never you know, we've we've got we've got amber, we've got you know, I've seen things made out of courts, but nothing that's
nothing that's concave or even you know, even lens like at all. Yeah. Can you remember who excavated Chichi Nitsa and actually began to consolidate el Karacole? Was it University of Pennsylvania or was There were a number of parties, but I believe that the Carnegie Institution Carnegie was the main one. Yeah, and there was the well, no, I was gonna say Augustus Leaplangon, but he did he didn't do mostly the Temple of the Warriors and the ball
court. He didn't mess with the car Cole. I think the car Cole was almost entirely the Carnegie. Yeah. The thing that I the reason I asked that is I have found photographs of when they first found it, and it's very, very dilapidated and fairly I mean they had to guess probably a
hell of a lot of them, you know. And that's the big thing about reconstructing these buildings is that they're so poorly so damage that you kind of had to figure it out as you go, and you think it looks like it's true and there have been some terrible jobs done, But I do, I do. I will say that I think the car coal, at least the things that I look at as elements of confirming its identity as a as
a observatory or connected to astronomy, those were pretty solid. Like the two of them are the staircases that are offset to one another, Yeah, and those are solid. I don't think they're all rebuilt. Those those orientations are good. The other one is the four doorways on the bottom. Those were pretty intact. I've seen the old photos and those were intact. It's the upper part that's really screwed up. Yeah, And there must have been a
bun bunch of windows up there. Now there are only three of them, and I think one of them was reconstructed from a partial break and it's suspect. Yeah, but you know, when you look at the air l caracole, you gotta walk up stairs and get to the observatory portion was the base filled with rooms and they just filled it in or what because it looks like
it would there could be a previous phase inside that platform. I'm not sure about that, but it's solid and then around like if you're walking up the staircase to the top to the right side, there's a bunch of rooms that are that are a butt against its platform, but don't go in the other side might have more rooms, but it's in the jungle. I've never looked over there. It's a weird billion years ago I had a chance to go into the bottom and see those two curved shafts this big and he's on either
side. Do you know what I'm talking about. It's like, I don't know what I do. There's like when you get to when you walk to the top of the stairs along the observatory, the middle section, there's two pits on either side of the column in the middle. Yeah, and there was a staircase that probably went up that's not there and there there there, actually it is still there. There's part of it was probably would Yeah, but I actually got to climb up that staircase. That might never let me
in at all. I'd ask and they'd be like, no, get out of here. And then Japanese Public Television invited me to do a documentary with them, and all of a sudden, amis like showed up with a ladder. Yes, sir, here you go. Like the payment must have been good enough for them to allow they liked the Japanese. Well we paid that that couple of times we took over their country against US gringos. Well we paid twenty dollars a piece a group of early tour a couple of twenty eighteen.
They have the privilege of going up there for half an hour. Well that's pretty nice. Yeah, nobody ever gets to get up there anymore. Well, Public Television Chichanitsa is now completely roped off. All the buildings are roped off. It's really a sad situation. It's yeah, and we've talked about it on other podcasts. It's it is a sad situation. But you know, the ruins endure. They do endure, and as always a wonderful
pleasure speaking with you, and always something to highlight. And I appreciate your your wisdom and your insight. You got to write a book one of these days, my friend. I'm working on a look at Look at My new scenario here. This is should mention everybody that had picked up family at all and has moved from Austin, Texas. He's now a Colorado person and he's apparently enjoying it. So that's a good that's a good side, perfect place
to start writing these books. Wonderful ed as always a pleasure. Thanks for joining me and we'll look forward to seeing you in November. Absolutely looking forward to it. Cliff, thanks for inviting me again. I should have mentioned before we had ed on that this stars satellite scan synthetic aperture radar scan is
quite frequently used for geological research and most notably for volcanoes. I mentioned that, but I have been looking into it for Mexican scans and I got an email from Marco Vigato, who is very much involved with ENA, which is the National Institute for Archaeological Research in Mexico, and he's currently at meat La Wahaka, Mexico doing research on a number of ancient sites there, most honorably what appears to be an underground cavern of extreme age that is very anomalous and
they want to start looking into that soon. But he would like to use a SAR scan, not only for meatla. But we both agree that scanning the Sun pyramid, if it's a reasonable price, you know, if it's a few thousand dollars to point a geological scanning satellite at a pyramid and have it uncover some similar data to the Kufu pyramid, man, that would really
really change our understanding for these early meso American people. Now, I'm a great believer that the Maya are descendants of extremely advanced race and when they landed in Mexico or Migraine into Mexico, they brought with them advanced cosmological data, astronomy, science, engineering, medicine, so forth, and so on that had been evolving over thousands of years prior to their arrival. And so here
we go. This is another group pre Maya, which would probably fall into the last epoch of development, you know, probably one hundred thousand plus years of existence on the Earth and noted research being done on energy and other sciences that are we're unaware of because they developed in a whole different paradigm. We
use generators from nuclear fusion. We're just getting into solar power now. But I think that our predaces, the earlier epochs used natural earth based geomagnetic energy, solar energy and other sources which were less toxic to power machines and to. I believe there were flying vehicles and there were also land based vehicles.
The big question, of course is, you know, when we talk about that is what are these Maya roads these highways as Richard Hansen likes to call them, And why would they develop such a high regard for these suckbes, these white roads that the Maya built and ran for hundreds of miles everywhere, not having the wheel and so forth. This is becoming a joke. You can't claim that you know and to and to just to say that these to that have wheels on them are just anomalies, that doesn't cut it. They
must know something, so we're going to help them. It's like same situations. The SAR scanning device is I believe the same revolutionary technology as lighter and we all know about lightar what it's done for archaeology. It's changed, it's changed their perspective on ancient cultures, and so I think SAR scans will do the same. So we'll find out. I'll be reporting on that if something breaks and Marco or I find out what's going on, and we can actually
point one of these satellites at a pyramid that we know is older. Let you know, one of the things that comes to mind when we're talking about meso American pyramid science is the work of the researcher John Burke, and in his book he basically goes around the world, using very very sophisticated equipment and testing it sites pyramids, land masses, megalists, and buildings to determine if
they're sitting on lay lines, which number of early cultures did. I think this leads back to their I mean really, I talk about this all the time when we go to Egypt and we're at the hath Or Temple, or we're at the Kufu Pyramid, or we're at probably half of the places that we visit on our tour, that those places are from the earlier epoch, an earlier civilization that really worked with geomagnetic energy, earth based gravitational energy,
and that's and they sit on lay lines. They sit on these arteries that are passing energy and it bubbles up through the building and they were able to catch, capture it, intensify it, and in some cases use it as a form of technology. And this is what the Kufu Pyramid is looking to be more and more ash And we'll hear about that from Chris Den. It looks like they captured this energy and probably added other elements and combusted them and
there you go. Some form of energy was created. And I'm a firm, firm believer. And I'm not going to give away my book because I want you to buy it. But this table tiba Kan the Quitzoquado Pyramid that we had a chance to visit on our tour a couple of years ago with doctor Gomez, that is a machine. I'm a firm believer of it. It's a machine so lots to consider, lots of amazing possibilities, and it's
exciting. It's really exciting. I mean I I would not have ed on the program if he was not at least transparent about his beliefs and his wonderful openness and willingness to see the data report on it from his perspective and where it shows promise actually acknowledge that rather than saying, oh, you're you know, you're full of crap. Yeah, I don't believe that for a minute. That kind of attitude is prevailent in the academic world, and it's being
shot down more and more. And I think when we get academics on the program, like doctor Karakuni, who's an Egyptologist who, by the way, we'll have on at the end of the year. She's got a new book out. When she says things like Egyptology is dead, she's right because they're out of touch. Zahihiwat Well, I shouldn't be naming names. You know who I'm talking about. The so far figure the noted figureheads of that discipline are just lost, and they continue to be lost as more science comes into
play. They have no response to this stars scan. They have no I mean, they just shoot it. They want to shoot it down. And this has been happening for decades. When John Anthony West and Robert Shock met for a geological review and Mark Lerner was in the audience and part of a response group, the only thing that Larner could say is, you think there's an earlier civilization, an earlier earlier epoch. Show me the pot shards.
Well, at that point, the great discoveries at Sakara had not been discovered. Now we know there's thousands of pot shards that show that this earlier epoch was extremely advanced, as I actually have a couple of those pot shards from Sakara, and it's obvious that these bulls, places, vases and so on were cut with lathes, high powered lathes, and they're gorgeous, and when they were first discovered over a decade ago, you could buy one for a
few hundred bucks. Now you see him on Southern bees for ten twenty thousand dollars. A simple granite vase or a plate or whatever. They're gorgeous, but the words out there a phenomenon. So if we had had that that material to show Learner, he would have thought twice about saying, where's the
pot shards that reveal who this earlier civilization is. It's a challenge, but I guess that's what it's all about, is to help the old guard, the Orthodoxy understand that their theories and their statements about history are fading quickly and they need to reveal they need to understand what science is helping them with. And this is another issue when it comes to Egyptology, is the fact that it is not necessarily a science. So we don't want to get into this.
We don't want to bash people because I have a lot of friends that are anthropologists and archaeologists. But you know, we've heard Gendeo, We've heard other archaeologists who are pushing the envelope of change. I think Ed's in that ballpark two and now it's it's kind of fun to be studying this and interviewing people each week that are the movers and shakers for these upcoming changes. And in some ways we are rewriting history now. A lot of the people that
are on this program or writing books and talking about their discoveries. I think Graham is Graham Hancock most likely is the true historian because he pulls together and he does it so eloquently different features of a topic, quantify, qualify, and so on the data and presents it in a real revolutionary manner. He, above anybody else, is in a position to debate professors of archaeology and
so forth. And by the way, I believe that he was going to be debating on Joe Rogan's program, a noted tenured professor of archaeology that has been canceled, and I think it's being moved to early twenty twenty four, But don't I don't remember what's going on. I hate to see that because you got two opposing opinions showing, you know, kind of pushing the topic out there and showing their cards and saying this is what I see, and
then the other persons what they see. I don't think I don't think that's a good thing to do. I think the better situation is to just let it happen rather than fighting with you know, decades of orthodoxy. Don't fight it, you know, just show this is what I'm finding, you know, as these scientific products are bringing to bear their technology and we're looking and we're piercing the veil of these ancient societies, light OAR, SAR, whatever
else comes up. You remember a while ago I was talking about some MIT kid creating a scanner to scan abilities and stuff. SAR scanning technology is kind of like that. It's like it's just changing the name, is changing the game. And so rather than fighting and I really wish that Graham would not debate anybody because it's just it's just stressful, upsetting, and it can it's
embarrassing. I think it's embarrassing and it doesn't need to happen. I'd rather just have them post their work and let the new talk technology and the new breed of researchers come out and say, hey, we're going to change the narrative. There is a new history that is evolving. Here's the beginning, here's the middle, and here's what we think the end is. I have
to believe that it's part of this epoch discussion. The earliest, the most recent epoch that passed during this Earth wide catastrophic event was very sophisticated and they left hence everywhere. So that would be the foundation for any discussion on a previous history. So fun, fun stuff to talk about. Hey, real quickly, we have a couple of tours coming up. You heard Ed mentioned
our annual trip to Mexico. That's November tenth to the seventeenth. We have a couple of spots left, and as he said, we really do. We're we're really at our limit, but we'll take a few people if you want more information on this or any of our tours. Egypt's coming up real quickly. That's April twenty eighth through May nine, twenty twenty four, and then we have Turkey. If you're interested in any Earth Ancients tours. First of all, be aware that our tours are half the price of a typical
tour fifty percent off, and their VIP they're just the best. Egypt, most notably is very very very very swank and they just take care of everything. It's fantastic. If you want more information, go to earth Ancients dot com Forward slash Tours and check it out. It is fantastic. Our tours are fun, informative, and they are enlightening. So come out and join us earth Ancients dot com Forward slash Tours. Okay, that's it for this
program. I want to thank my guest today, doctor Edwin Barnhardt, coming to us from his new digs in Colorado. As always, the team of Ruth Thomas, Mark Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. Thank you, and you guys rock all right, take care of be well and we will talk to you next time. The time that the shish lit